Time Nick Message 02:32 hmmmm hey Zeno, aws wondering why you implemented gamma settings the way you did and not using IrrlichtDevice::setGammaRamp() 05:48 paramat #2103 is perhaps ready for merge 05:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2103 -- Lua-api.txt: Document that paramtype=light is essential for a light source to spread its light by paramat 05:58 paramat hi hmmmm a simple plains biome (grasses, flowers) for mgv5/7 has just been added to MTgame, would you like me to remove builtin_biome? 05:59 hmmmm sure 06:01 hmmmm it would probably be a smarter idea to move builtin_biome to minimal 06:02 paramat okay 06:12 paramat currently mgv5 has mandatory caves carved in the base terrain loop, i think i should separate cave carving into it's own optional function and run that after biome surface material is added. currently biome surface material is placed in tunnels (oops) 06:15 hmmmm ahh, yeah, you should respect MG_CAVES... 07:13 hmmmm heh hrmm 07:13 hmmmm anybody ever see a segfault caused by a bogus value in a vptr table? 07:14 hmmmm I tried compiling the irrlicht example #5 and that happens to me 07:15 gregorycu Are you sure if was a bogus value in the vptr table, or was it a bad "this" pointer? 07:15 hmmmm absolutely sure it was a bad vtable entry 07:16 hmmmm 3irr3gui13CGUIScrollBarD1Ev> 0x800d32d80 <_ZTv0_n48_N3irr3gui13CGUIScrollBarD 07:16 hmmmm 0Ev> 07:16 hmmmm 0x80102a3d0 <_ZTVN3irr3gui13CGUIScrollBarE+464>: 0xfffffffffffffe88 07:16 hmmmm 0xfffffffffffffe88 07:16 hmmmm erm 07:16 hmmmm that was meant to be more readable than that 07:16 gregorycu No idea 07:17 hmmmm crashes right here: http://sourceforge.net/p/irrlicht/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/examples/05.UserInterface/main.cpp#l252 07:18 hmmmm well it's not a fluke since it happened with g++48 too 07:18 gregorycu No idea 07:19 gregorycu Umm.... 07:19 gregorycu Is this a shared object, or a lib? 07:20 hmmmm hah 07:20 hmmmm well let's put it this way, it's not a compiler bug 07:21 gregorycu You'd get this type of shit, if you were using a shared lib (dynamic loaded) 07:21 gregorycu Where the shared lib didn't match the headers you used 07:22 hmmmm ahh 07:22 hmmmm let's try removing the "-I/../../include" 07:23 hmmmm and it works 07:23 hmmmm you're awesome :) good job recognizing that 07:23 gregorycu It's my job 07:24 gregorycu Which I have to go back to tomorrow after 20 days off 07:24 hmmmm :( 07:24 hmmmm is it soul crushing? 07:25 gregorycu What will be soul crushing is all the emails, and also trying to get back on track with what I was doing 20 days ago 07:25 gregorycu My memory is shit 07:26 hmmmm going to work 'tomorrow', eh? you sound australian 07:26 hmmmm aha, hostname confirms 07:26 gregorycu I certainly am 07:27 gregorycu Zeno and I make sure the Australian quota is met in this project 07:27 hmmmm you australians are always a day ahead of us americans 07:27 hmmmm literally :p 07:28 gregorycu If it makes you feel better, when the Armageddon comes, we'll be the first to go 07:44 paramat okay hmmmm #2036 is tested and ready for review 07:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2036 -- Builtin: Remove builtin_biome.lua. Minimal: Add simple biome to default/mapgen.lua. Remove indev mapgen ores by paramat 07:53 paramat also #2103 if my documentation of paramtype="light" is correct 07:53 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2103 -- Lua-api.txt: Document that paramtype=light is essential for a light source to spread its light by paramat 08:11 paramat nore mgv5/v7 and the biome API are not stable yet, perhaps they will be at next stable release. however i'm about to start adding optional snow biomes to mgv6 if you and sfan5 still want them 08:13 nore I do :) 08:14 nore it would be good to have pines and snow by default in _game... 08:15 nore btw, if you make snow biomes, I suggest you to make two different ones: one with few trees and one like a forest 08:18 paramat yes i would like to have taiga and tundra: cold and wet, cold and dry 08:19 paramat as a mirror image of jungle and desert 08:21 paramat also, i am working on a full set of biomes for v5/v7 with new tree schematics, hopefully for next stable. what is in MTgame currently is just temporary 08:22 nore oh, and how have you done with the trees? did you generate dozens of pinetrees and then saved them as as many schematics? 08:29 paramat haven't started tree schematics yet. most will use the randomised node feature of schematics, but snowy pines may done differently 08:29 paramat .. because the per-node randomisation cannot place a snow node on every leaf node 08:30 Calinou +nore> btw, if you make snow biomes, I suggest you to make two different ones: one with few trees and one like a forest 08:30 Calinou this is very important 08:31 paramat taiga can be split into forest and clearings by the tree perlin noise, i could even use that noise to vary tree density? 08:32 Calinou yes, noise to vary tree density would be good 08:32 Calinou although make it so that normal forests behave this way too 08:32 paramat yes vary tree density by noise, i find that essential to look good 08:32 Calinou (for consistency) 08:32 paramat that might break old worlds a little though (not much) 08:33 paramat actually the discontinuity won't be ugly.. 08:33 paramat so yes i agree 08:34 Calinou so that we have highly forested areas, scarcely forested ones, and not-at-all forested ones 08:34 Calinou forests wouldn't be a separate biome anymore, which is good for simplicity 08:35 Calinou we'd have just plains/desert/tundra 08:35 Calinou and trees/cacti on them 08:38 paramat tundra is apparently cold, dry and barren, no trees, perhaps a new 'permafrost' node. then also i plan to add icesheet only in the very coldest areas 08:39 paramat or, tundra could be rocky, no dirt at all, just thin snow 08:42 Calinou keep dirt 08:43 Calinou we could have ice lakes sometimes 08:46 paramat yes icesheet on water in extreme cold 09:20 Krock why is that function there? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/guiTable.cpp#L326 10:19 paramat nore, sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/399 10:28 nore game#399 was the fastest-merged PR :) 10:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/399 -- Return to original water sink speed for player by paramat 10:28 sfan5 yeah 10:33 Calinou the eleventh world war is over!! 10:35 sapier main.cpp L1612 ... things like that should be hidden within the porting layer ... or the function name is wrong if this can be done anywhere else then on x too 10:40 puhfa hey, you guys aware that memory is leaking something fierce especially when handling bunch of entities? 10:40 puhfa managed to actually crash my system when both 4 gb ram and pagefile where filled with cobble after only 30 mins of running the client 10:41 puhfa 0.4.11-64 windows build from the website 10:56 sfan5 ShadowNinja: having blocker and high priority labels on an issue doesn't make sense, blockers are always high priority 10:59 sapier sfan5 can you explain to me why fixing a feature not even beeing officially supported is not "low priority" ... and moreover why (you) removed the "low priority" flag in total but kept medium and high? 11:00 sfan5 sapier: every issue that is not high or medium priority is automatically low priority 11:00 sfan5 we don't need a label for that 11:00 sapier because you believe we don't need it? 11:00 sfan5 what do we need it for? 11:01 sapier if you don't have it consequence is everything not beeing medium or high will be LOW 11:01 sfan5 what should the default priority for issues be? 11:02 nore medium priority? 11:02 sapier imho low is a flag for things that are a bug but are at "glitch" level like "would be nice to fix but doesn't actually do any harm" 11:02 sapier e.g. a invalid warning message for example 11:03 sfan5 maybe we should remove the medium label and add the low label back 11:03 sapier maybe at least I don't really have feeling what medium is supposed to be 11:04 sapier we can't add a desctiption to labels on github can we? 11:04 sfan5 no 11:05 sapier guess it'd make things way more easy if we knew what a label was supposed to mark 11:05 sapier I'd suggest keeping the medium label as it's at some issues right now but not using it any longer 11:49 gregorycu The default priority is null 11:49 gregorycu Which means it hasn't been assigned a priority 11:49 gregorycu Surely you want to explicitly categorise things, and have some way of knowing which things have not been categorised 11:50 SudoAptGetPlay Hi, how can I register someone pointing at an other player (to fire an hud element) 12:12 puhfa 3 Gb in less than 20 min :| 12:12 puhfa so restart is needed twice in an hour 12:12 puhfa is this a known issue? 12:12 sapier puhfa: what version are you using? 12:13 puhfa now tried the previous one, 0.4.10 stable 12:13 puhfa cant really say if the latest stable is any better 12:13 sapier so 0.4.10 uses that much memory? 12:13 puhfa yes. but the thing is, i am deliberately spamming this entities 12:14 puhfa using a pipeworks machine 12:14 puhfa with entities* 12:14 sapier well in this case stop spamming ;-) 12:14 kahrl sounds like a case of "doctor, it hurts when I do this" :P 12:14 puhfa the leak will still be there, stalking. what if it attacks me when im asleep? : 12:15 sapier kahrl: true yet we could have issues with handling a entitiy overload scenario too 12:15 puhfa and the machine is no lets-break-all-clients thing, just an ore processor 12:16 sapier pipeworks merely abuses some of minetests mechanisms it's not a surprise it trigger issues never happening with regular usage 12:16 puhfa id say using pipeworks counts as regular usage these days 12:16 sapier I don't 12:17 puhfa anyway, i am getting serialization errors once in a while here, might be related 12:17 gregorycu Hmm... 12:17 gregorycu What does pipeworks spam? 12:17 sapier pipeworks main issue is it doesn't handle minetests activity range 12:18 sapier activity range concept is by design incompatible to what pipeworks does 12:18 gregorycu Maybe so 12:18 gregorycu But what does it spam? 12:18 puhfa oh, forgot to mention, i keep the map block always loaded when i use the tubes 12:18 puhfa might help narrowing it down 12:18 sapier which is even worse because that feature is flaged "use at your own risk" 12:18 puhfa gregorycu: i am just using it a lot 12:20 gregorycu So, there is no reason for the memory usage to increase 12:20 puhfa so does this mean youre not interested in trying to fix it, even though its a memory leak? 12:20 sapier well if you force load a block and add more and more entities memory increases that's quite natural 12:20 gregorycu Is that what is happening here? 12:21 puhfa um, the old objects should disappear but they still stay in memory 12:21 nore pipeworks tries not to spam unloaded blocks with entities 12:21 puhfa they arent freed properly 12:21 gregorycu The definition of a memory leak does not included entities that deliberately hang around 12:21 puhfa no they dont. they spawn, hang in there for a while and then supposedly disappear. except they wont 12:21 sapier maybe, I guess at some point you're startung to build up client <-> server message queues too as the number of entities causes a lot of communication 12:22 gregorycu Right, but let's not quickly assume it's a dodgy mod 12:22 puhfa basically its just transporting items from one inventory to another via a short tube 12:22 sapier this is a guess, but I'd not be surprised if you could cause a runnaway effect 12:23 sapier btw if you overload entity system client server could get out of sync too 12:23 puhfa that could be the cause, yes. someone probably should test running pipeworks machines with little traffic but for a long time 12:23 sapier maybe client thinks a entity dropped on server is still present resulting in it hanging around on client inifinite 12:24 puhfa tried some noclipping, no visible entities 12:24 sapier puhfa: yes maybe, you just have to find someone willing to fix pipeworks bugs 12:24 kahrl so there are a lot of places that could be the cause 12:24 kahrl I think this means this needs to be investigated with massif (which I have to admit to have no clue how to use) 12:25 gregorycu wtf is that? 12:25 kahrl gregorycu: a part of valgrind 12:25 sapier massif is a heap profiler 12:25 gregorycu ahh ok 12:26 sapier you can find where "not lost" memory is stored 12:26 gregorycu I'll grab pipeworks, and have a play 12:29 puhfa sapier: i am not saying pipeworks is perfect, i just think i found a memory leak while using it 12:29 puhfa no matter how twisted the mod is, it causes the engine to misbehave 12:30 sapier android sdk is crap ... if you wanna use version specific styles you have to increase target api to highest style you wanna support ... resulting in not having any check about your specified min api level still would work 12:30 puhfa anyway, in summary: lots of entities spawned and destroyed, no chunks loaded or unloaded, lots of inventory movements 12:30 sapier puhfa: a memory leak is lost memory ;-) I don't think we have lost memory here 12:31 gregorycu What makes you think that 12:31 puhfa uh, okay 12:31 puhfa anyways, allocated memory is not freed 12:31 gregorycu sapier doesn't speak for everyone 12:31 puhfa this is what is happening 12:31 puhfa whatever you want to call it 12:31 sapier I did a lot of memory leak checking the last week I found and fixed a few, none related to entities at all 12:31 kahrl well, let's see what massif is showing 12:32 sapier I'm with kahrl I guess the memory is just stalled somewhere 12:32 gregorycu Stalled? 12:32 sapier yet It's still a hypothesis nothing proven 12:32 gregorycu What is stalled memory? 12:32 puhfa wouldnt that be a memory leak then? :) 12:32 sapier nope 12:33 kahrl gregorycu: meaning there's still a pointer to it (e.g. it's in a queue), but the server can't keep up with processing that queue 12:33 sapier by definition a leak is unreachable memory 12:33 gregorycu It doesn't have to be unreachable 12:33 gregorycu It just has to be never used again 12:33 sapier in order to be a leak it has to be unreachable 12:33 puhfa well if the client doenst ever use that pointer, seems pretty unreachable to me 12:33 sapier effect of stalled and unreachable is same of course yet it's a big difference 12:33 puhfa okay 12:34 gregorycu That's how some algos find memory leaks 12:34 sapier it's easy to find unreachable memory but stalled memory may require certain circumstances to happen 12:34 sapier e.g. massive entity overload by pipeworks ;-) 12:35 gregorycu The engine should be robust to handle this usecase 12:35 sapier well maybe the engine is if you don't enable hacks like forceloading blocks 12:35 kahrl an easy test would be: let the pipeworks machine do its thing for a while, then stop it, and see if the memory usage goes down 12:35 gregorycu If puhfa isn't going out of his way, and bad shit is happening... 12:36 gregorycu Is there a pipeworks tutorial somewhere? 12:36 sapier yes kahrl and disable forceloading if the machine is that small it's not required 12:37 gregorycu What does forceloading do? 12:37 gregorycu I thought it simulated a player standing somewhere 12:37 sapier disable activity mechanism for a certain block keeping it active 12:37 gregorycu Why should that have an impact on anything? 12:37 sapier gregorycu: in theory yes but I don't know how it's been implemented 12:38 gregorycu Indeed, ok, give me a few min 12:38 sapier if there's a bug in this hack It could interfer with regular entity handling 12:39 Krock interesting. FPS drop frm 40 to 20 when placing a node but drawtype stays at 3 12:39 Krock s/drawtype/drawtime 12:40 sapier I don't believe fps drop if you place a single node 12:40 Krock it actually happens 12:41 sapier what os? 12:41 Krock windows 5.1 12:41 Krock screenshots coming 12:41 sapier btw drawtime does only contain the time to draw the scene all logics is done out of this timer 12:42 sapier fps == 1s / ((time to do logics) + drawtime) 12:42 sapier -s 12:43 sapier yet placing a single node should cause any noticeable change 12:43 Krock http://imgur.com/TwRu0Vs,F05GWPr,GmRepng 12:44 Krock 1) normal 2) placed 1 node 3) places 2 nodes 12:46 Krock interesting. it's gone now when the older chunks got unloaded by the client 12:46 sapier did you wayt for fps to settle down prior taking the first screenshot? 12:46 sapier grrr what the heck am I typing 12:47 puhfa hmm, thats happened to me too 12:47 puhfa mainly if i am placing the nodes very high 12:47 puhfa i suspect it is just generating shadows 12:47 sapier Krock what machine are you running this at? 12:47 Krock Athlon 64 4000+ 2.4 GHz single core, 2 GB ram 12:47 puhfa Krock: is the ground block below you loaded? because then ive seen this too 12:47 sapier drawtime doesn't change so if there ain't a bug in drawtime calculation fps drop is caused by some server action 12:48 Krock Radeon X300 graphics card 12:48 sapier hmm windows 5.1 is windows xp am I right? 12:48 Krock puhfa, now they're unloaded and problem is solved 12:48 Krock sapier, yes 12:49 sapier you're lucky on radeon x200 minetest won't even start ;-) 12:49 Krock how come? 12:49 sapier I don't know 12:49 puhfa it happens to me if the blocks below me are loaded and theres plenty of distance (height) 12:49 puhfa so shadows? 12:49 sapier tried it once on my old laptop ... never took time to find out 12:50 sapier krock's drop isn't related to graphics 12:50 puhfa no, i mean lighting calculations 12:50 Krock it looks like something is calculated.. and that something uses much CPU 12:50 Krock yeah. maybe lighting 12:50 sapier looks like unloading blocks takes some cpu time, enough to cause a fps drop ... light calculations might be a reason yes 12:52 Krock so if lightening would be calculated with the GPU, I would get drawtype spikes 12:53 sapier in theory yes, but gpu can't calculate the node light 12:53 sapier well maybe using gpgpu capabilities 12:54 sapier but not as in 3d graphics lighting 12:54 Kodexky Hi sapier. 12:54 Kodexky Nice to meet you. 12:54 sapier thanks Kodexky 12:55 kahrl well I definitely see some optimization opportunities in Map::propagateSunlight 12:55 sapier do you wanna do gpgpu coding kahrl? ;-) 12:55 Kodexky please forgive, but on 25235a4 shouldn't BS be 1 for that to work? 12:55 kahrl huh why 12:56 kahrl I mean the getBlockNoCreate call is only needed at the start and when y is crossing a mapblock boundary 12:56 kahrl and should be changed to getBlockNoCreateNoEx as well 12:56 sapier oops 12:56 sapier you're right Kodexky 12:57 Kodexky ok, i thought i was more too sleepy 12:57 Kodexky -more 12:58 sapier fixed 12:58 Kodexky cool :) now to fix the sleepy part... 12:59 celeron55 Kodexky: umm hello, i guess you came here due to my message 13:00 Kodexky hi celeron55, yes in part. 13:03 Kodexky sorry just remembered the forum and went checking, im very slow right now. 13:04 celeron55 it looks like we have many poeple who are working on some android specific parts of minetest, i wonder of people feel okay with the current amount of coordination or whether there should be clearer goals 13:04 Kodexky being honest i'm not too comfortable on irc, im just trying to like it 13:05 celeron55 this channel is often a complete chaos, i totally get it if someone doesn't like it 13:06 celeron55 Kodexky: what do you prefer the most over IRC? there is a bit of ongoing discussion over this too 13:08 sapier who else is working on android celeron55? 13:08 Kodexky im quite fine using mail, people breaths and thinks a little more before submiting. 13:08 Kodexky the delay is the problem of course. 13:09 sapier I'd be more concerned about the amount of mails Kodexky 13:09 celeron55 sapier: Kodexky has done some pull requests, and one other guy on the forum that i never heard of before seems to have a lot of work put to it 13:09 sapier guess I should have a look at forum? 13:10 celeron55 this reply: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=167371#p167371 13:11 celeron55 how do we combine these efforts to give the best result to users 13:11 sfan5 that guy released minetest on ouya 13:12 celeron55 well Kodexky's pull requests are perfectly fine - what i'm concerned in that case is for example duplicate work 13:13 sapier well I spent about 6 hours of work for trash yesterday because of ppl not beeing able to actually test prior complaining do you really assume duplicated work is an issue? 13:13 celeron55 well true, it generally isn't 13:14 sapier where's that pull request? 13:14 sfan5 sapier: if you're talking about the font stuff, it looks like it wasn't really clear what the problem was and what needs to be changed 13:14 Kodexky lets make a list of current and choose from there 13:14 celeron55 i'm not referring to any existing problem; also all those PRs have been merged 13:14 sapier the menu mockup is interesting but I'm not sure if it'd work on a smartphone with this orientation 13:15 celeron55 do we just tell to ezraanderson that his patches are welcome and he should submit PRs of them? 13:15 celeron55 or should we make a list of goals for the android port 13:15 celeron55 and then say PRs for those will be accepted 13:15 sapier some goals would at least help to make us move towards same direction 13:16 sapier we've got a pr for most of them already 13:17 Kodexky both, id really like to take a look at what ezraanderson has done, and a roadmap stating requirements as a priority. 13:17 celeron55 a wiki page to describe goals and constraints for android development maybe 13:18 celeron55 (constraints like what techniques are acceptable for implementing better menus) 13:18 sapier Kodexky: if you're talking about that post the only major things not yet merged is the hw image scaling and the help system 13:18 gregorycu puhfa: You there? 13:19 Kodexky just curiosity. :) 13:19 sapier for hw scaling I suggest doing this little bit more precise just render at 320x480 for everyone seems crude to me :-) there are plenty of devices capable of running mt on native resolution 13:20 Kodexky dont make it mandatory. 13:20 puhfa gregorycu: yeah 13:20 puhfa sup? 13:20 Kodexky and low requirements option. 13:20 gregorycu puhfa: How do I make this continually output items? 13:21 Kodexky many games have that 13:21 gregorycu I have two chests linked by two pipes 13:21 puhfa um, you could use blinky plants from mesecons 13:21 sapier Kodexky: that's what I meant with "more precise" 13:21 gregorycu with two filter-injector 13:21 gregorycu blinky plants... ok 13:21 Kodexky ok 13:22 puhfa i was using technic machines that auto-inject their contents 13:22 sapier yet his patch doesn't contain any support do en/disable this so we'd have to add that interface prior merge 13:22 gregorycu I was searching for "clock" and "pulsar", I should have searched for "blinky plant" 13:22 sapier guess that's a minor issue 13:22 celeron55 sapier, Kodexky: would you contribute to an android roadmap wiki page if there was one? 13:22 puhfa gregorycu: logical, aint it? :) 13:22 sapier celeron55 every now and then yes ... but I don't like wiki very well I always forget about my password there 13:23 celeron55 can you think of something better 13:23 celeron55 IRC certainly isn't good for keeping track of goals and progress 13:23 celeron55 just milestoned issues on github? 13:23 sapier nope ... it's not a wiki problem but a "i need 5 different passwords for minetest alone" issue ;-) 13:24 sapier actuall it's 6 13:24 sapier wiki forum github irc android keystore android cert 13:24 puhfa gregorycu: btw, i had like 32 machines injecting stuff every abm, so thats the scale we are talking about. might not happen with a single chest+blinky config 13:24 sapier hmm what's number 6 ... 13:25 gregorycu sweet jesus... 13:25 sapier lol 13:25 puhfa what. i told you guys i was spamming the cobble out of it 13:25 gregorycu Why is it a fucking plant 13:25 sapier causing overload intentionally and complain about memory usage later ;-) 13:25 puhfa 32 actually makes sense. what with the 32 inventory slots and the like 13:25 sapier puhfa: sounds more like a benchmark then regular usage 13:26 Kodexky im for the milestones on github 13:26 puhfa i like to push my limits... 13:26 gregorycu 32 is nothing 13:26 puhfa anyway, still, even when theres an overload, it should free the entities 13:26 sapier well guy guess you found out you're over it 13:26 puhfa or perhaps have some kind of timeout that auto-destroys them 13:26 celeron55 sapier: are you fine with milestone issues on github? 13:26 sapier yes would be a good solution too 13:27 sapier I have to do some real life work now I'll be back in about 2-3h 13:27 celeron55 okay, that can be the way to write down goals for android then 13:29 celeron55 anyway, there doesn't seem to be any real issues so i'm not going to mess with this more 13:30 celeron55 if everyone is too lazy write down any goals, there are plenty of small issues to be solved in any case 13:32 Kodexky let me think it again, after talking to my pillow... i just burned myself with a cigarette :s 13:32 Kodexky not quite functional right now. 13:33 celeron55 s/too lazy write down/too lazy to write down/ 13:35 Kodexky well, it's been a pleasure. guess we can go with the details later. 13:36 Kodexky now i need to rest. 13:36 Kodexky see ya 13:37 celeron55 good night, or something 8) 13:47 gregorycu puhfa: My initial thoughts are that there is a leak here 13:48 gregorycu The only other think worth mentioning is that I have a CPU kinda pegged at 100% 13:48 gregorycu Or near abouts 13:50 puhfa high cpu usage kinda makes sense, lots of entities to handle and i am not worried about that 13:51 puhfa anyway, when the entities disappear from view, they should leave the ram as well 13:51 gregorycu Well, if the CPU usage means that there is something queueing somewhere... 13:51 gregorycu The entities are particles if I am not mistaken 13:51 puhfa did you get any serialization errors due to having too many entities around? 13:52 gregorycu No, but I only have about 10 pumps going 13:52 puhfa i think i actually had ~64 nodes injecting stuff constantly 13:52 puhfa but those entities were supposed to be short-lived 13:53 puhfa i have seen this happen before and so have others 13:53 puhfa i brought it up because this was the first time my system actually crashed because of it 13:53 T4im it always seemed to me, that the cpu only spikes around the time it tries to swap around gigabytes of that entityleaking… i.e. more as a side effect… 13:53 T4im but I might be wrong 13:54 T4im it is a very common occurrence, yes 13:54 puhfa well, when using certain mods at least 13:54 T4im and not just on technic runnign servers, its just most noticeable there 13:55 T4im actually pipeworks running server we should say 13:58 gregorycu hmmm... 13:58 gregorycu Could be particles 13:59 gregorycu I'll do tests tomorrow 13:59 puhfa i dunno. lua-side they can have all sorts of properties stamped onto them 13:59 puhfa oh 13:59 puhfa nevermind 13:59 kilbith sfan5: what's that font name ? http://i.imgur.com/7EcOO.png 13:59 sfan5 no idea 14:00 sfan5 jordach made that screenshot 14:07 fz72 I found a memory bug: when I leave a world the memory doesn't get free 15:05 casimir It seems with the new sorting the server list is easy to manipulate. 15:07 sfan5 casimir: the old sorting was as easy to manipulate too 15:08 casimir Yes. But now I made it up to the third place on the list, without effort. 15:10 sfan5 what do you mean 15:13 casimir Before my server was very unknown, with only one or two players at max. Now it almost hits max clients for no other reason than the sorting. 15:14 casimir 1. It seems my server is in the same data center (or near by) as the masterserver. ping = 1 15:15 casimir 2. Second guests are disallowed, so only full players get counted, and they give more points. 15:15 casimir 3. I increased the server time just to test if it is possible to manipulate the list. ;) 15:17 casimir Then choose your max clients to be 127 and let it run for at least an hour. 15:18 sfan5 regarding 1) servers.minetest.net is in amsterdam at waveride/edis, your server is in amsterdam at digitalocean 15:18 sfan5 2 is expected behaviour 15:18 casimir 3 Should be changed. 15:19 sfan5 why? 15:19 casimir It just profits those who know about it. In the long run every one will increase the game_time to be above 8 months. 15:21 sfan5 the plan was to allow older servers (more stable) to be at the top 15:22 sfan5 the plan wasn't that server owners increase the age of their world by editing some files 15:23 casimir Yes. That's the problem. 15:23 casimir (btw. I will turn mine back to the normal time) 15:23 sfan5 how do you suggest to solve this 15:24 casimir Just don't count the time. 15:27 sfan5 casimir: 64 bytes from 178.62.146.72: icmp_seq=1 ttl=60 time=0.954 ms the ping isn't even 1ms 15:28 sfan5 casimir: take a look at http://servers.minetest.net it doesn't count the time anymore 15:28 Wayward_One would it be possible to measure how long a server has been around externally? like say, how long it's been on the server list? 15:30 Wayward_One externally meaning not affected by someone editing the age of their world 15:30 sfan5 yes 15:30 sfan5 but that would require extra code 15:31 Wayward_One hmm 15:49 VanessaE hmmmm: two more reports of corrupted blocks for you, 15:49 VanessaE [01-11 10:38] http://i.imgur.com/vJsYIRx.png 15:49 VanessaE [01-11 10:49] I DO see cubes: http://i.cubeupload.com/tmTtli.png 15:50 casimir Thank you sfan5, it now went down to 9th place. Amazing to see how a relative small change leads to ab bigger change in a chaotic system. (The chaos part here are the players.) 15:50 sfan5 well 15:50 sfan5 it depends when you looked at the serverlist 15:51 sfan5 i tweaked it a bit 15:51 casimir what else have you done? 15:51 sfan5 casimir: http://sprunge.us/UfXg?diff 15:53 sfan5 hm 15:56 sfan5 made another change 15:57 sfan5 shouldn't be so bad for servers with lower average_players now 15:58 sfan5 hm 15:58 sfan5 still not ideal 15:59 sapier sfan5 "It's broken" ;-P 15:59 sfan5 ? 16:01 casimir Keep it simple 16:03 sfan5 yup 16:03 sfan5 i think this is good 16:07 kahrl so those windmill clusters 16:07 kahrl are they caused by 8621e6de5d? 16:09 kahrl I don't see where new_data is initialized in addArea() 16:10 kahrl the loops just copy the old data but where is the rest of new_data initialized 16:10 sapier isn't the whole area initialize by memset? at least do I rememer it beeing that way 16:11 kahrl there is no memset on new_data 16:11 sapier strange 16:11 kahrl there is one for new_flags but that doesn't matter 16:12 kahrl perhaps PilzAdam was right ;) http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2014-12-24#i_4077862 16:13 sapier well the area copy/add code is tricky I learned this the hard way too 16:14 sapier what's the voxel.cpp change?????? 16:14 sapier who did agree to this? 16:15 sapier if compiler does align to 4/8 for arrays this might fail completely 16:15 kahrl I don't remember who did 16:16 sapier I've to check this once again it's so crude I'm not sure it may work by accident 16:16 sapier at least on some compilers 16:19 sapier no what that's just wrong 16:19 sapier a MapNode constuctor ain't called if no MapNode element is created 16:21 kahrl well the idea was to avoid calling the MapNode constructor 16:21 kahrl because calling it is slower than not calling it 16:21 kahrl but not calling it is undefined behaviour, so... 16:21 sapier well if this is supposed to create a list of pointers to MapNodes constuctor won't be called anyway 16:21 sapier if it's supposed to create an array of MapNodes the new code doesn't allocate enough memory 16:22 sapier because sizeof(pointer) != sizeof(MapNode) 16:22 kahrl sizeof(*new_data) == sizeof(MapNode) 16:23 sapier wait dereferenciate a pointer for sizeof? does this work? 16:23 kahrl yes 16:23 sapier stange way of writing code 16:24 kahrl it's less prone to being missed in case someone changes the type that is pointed to 16:24 sapier well if this conforms standard it'd be correct 16:24 sapier maybe but way more hard to read 16:24 kahrl I don't find it hard to read 16:25 sapier what about a memset(new_data,0, new_size * sizeof(*new_data)) 16:25 kahrl it's an idiom in C (where you actually need to pass something like that to malloc often) 16:26 kahrl shouldn't it be initialized to CONTENT_IGNORE? 16:26 sapier hope 0 is CONTENT_IGNORE 16:26 kahrl though it was initialized to CONTENT_AIR before, I don't know if and how that worked 16:26 kahrl nope, 0 is whatever is registered first by a mod 16:27 kahrl CONTENT_IGNORE is 127 16:27 sapier ok then this optimization is just crap 16:27 sapier we need to have defined values in there. If we can't use a memset we can use the constructor too 16:27 kahrl agreed 16:29 sapier As I said it's not first time I made a similar mistake too 16:33 kahrl anyway let's wait for Zeno`, maybe he can explain how it works :) 16:33 sapier yes it's broken and wont get different if we don't do anything maybe we miss something 16:35 VanessaE fwiw those big clusters of errant nodes aren't limited to windmills 16:35 VanessaE if that helps any 16:36 VanessaE here's the one that happened the other day on one of my servers: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2001102015%20-%2001%3a03%3a25%20AM.png 16:36 VanessaE you can see where normal mapgen ops even took place after the errant mapblocks were created (the trees and plants on top, and even mudflow) 17:16 sapier celeron55: I can't implement the upscaling feature, I'd have to touch formspec code and I'm not gonna do this ahain 17:22 celeron55 we seriously need to rework or replace formspecs to be based on a proper design with clearly defined behavior 17:22 celeron55 this is unbearable 17:24 celeron55 https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=167434#p167434 17:24 celeron55 i could try to hook these guys up to this task, assuming they're competent enough 17:24 celeron55 they want a proper UI themselves too in any case 17:25 celeron55 it's just that whether they are willing to spend 75% of their time thinking about networking when they could just hack something that works specifically for their project 17:26 sapier I'm not gonna do this celeron55 I've already had enough trouble, I'm gonna support in designing it but I'll not code it 17:26 celeron55 i think i'll have to ask what these guys have in mind 17:28 sapier for those hw scaling the issue is formspec uses the actual screen size to be placed which is faked by the scaling change 17:30 kilbith http://kenney.itch.io/voxus 17:31 kilbith (no mention of Minetest yet...) 17:31 sapier I'm not sure if those guys would be right they're designing their game I'd be worried about them having a limited point of view 17:36 sapier btw I don't even think formspec language is that bad, it's some historic inconsistencys but for a gui system not supporting dynamic layout and containers it is quite suitable 17:36 sapier it's implementation, to be more precise the positioning is, is inconsistent and broken 17:37 sapier and for containers and dynamic layout we'd need a designer tool anyway 17:38 celeron55 voxus looks professional, but i'm yet to see any actually interesting content 17:38 sapier those guys seem to be skilled designers true 17:41 sapier I wonder if that guy suggesting the hw scaling did try it 17:42 sapier either I'm doing something different or irrlicht support for this is quite broken 17:43 celeron55 and yes, i agree that the basic concept of formspecs is fine but 1) limiting, and 2) there are way too many historical problems 17:43 sapier I fully agree to point 2 ;-) 17:44 sapier as of code fixing it would be simple but I'm almost sure it'd cause major political issues 17:44 celeron55 did Zeno say he has experience of making UI systems? 17:44 sapier yes he did 17:45 celeron55 i wonder what kind of exactly 17:45 sapier but he didn't wanna say anything about him doing the formspec redesign 17:47 sapier ok seems like the irrlicht issues I just mentioned are due to changeing those parameters after creation of context .. guess I have to find a way to make them parameters of device creation 17:50 sapier nice latest irrlicht version contains support for reading assets 17:50 sapier maybe we can skip copying our textures to sdcard soon 17:52 celeron55 gah, i hate thinking about this 17:52 celeron55 everything is an absolute mountain of work and people's expectations are too high 17:55 celeron55 doing anything is not rewarding at all 17:55 sapier come on celeron55 everything is fine ;-) 17:55 sapier almost 17:56 celeron55 no, almost nothing is, and i can't help it 17:56 celeron55 well the world isn't ending, but otherwise 17:56 sapier crap I just tried to fix my system irrlicht header instead of the one within android deps :-) 17:58 celeron55 one day i tried to imagine how to mix up minetest and buildat in a useful way 17:58 celeron55 the end result was that it makes no sense and would be absolutely awful to make work in the first place 17:59 sapier as often 17:59 celeron55 yeah it's generally where these thought experiments go 17:59 celeron55 directly in the trash 18:00 celeron55 an another thing is that i would like to replace irrlicht with urho3d in minetest 18:01 VanessaE O_o 18:01 celeron55 and also take into use buildat's client-side lua wrapper of urho3d's gui system 18:01 sapier wouldn't this just exchange the problems we know about by problems we'd still have to find out? 18:01 celeron55 it's pretty functional i must say 18:02 celeron55 yeah, it would immediately bring in some issues like not being able to support very old GPUs 18:03 celeron55 would have to find out first how many users would be affected 18:03 celeron55 but it would solve a lot of issues too 18:03 sapier define "very old"? 18:04 celeron55 older than opengl 2 18:04 exio4 is there any gpu out there that can run minetest right now with that ogl version? 18:05 celeron55 of course it requires some specific extensions instead of that version so it's more complicated than that 18:06 sapier so basicaly anything below geforce 7 18:06 celeron55 EXT_framebuffer_object and EXT_packed_depth_stencil 18:06 celeron55 or something like that 18:06 sapier which is about 2005 18:07 sapier I'd guess intel required some more time to get opengl2 support 18:07 celeron55 my old laptop (the famous one that i made MT on) runs irrlicht on opengl 1.4 18:07 celeron55 so that's out 18:08 celeron55 also virtualbox doesn't support those extensions 18:09 celeron55 basically every 3D game has required those for ten years now though 18:09 celeron55 every proper one :P 18:09 sapier well intel wasn't as lazy as I expected their first ogl2 is 2005 too 18:10 sapier basically we're talking about limiting minetest to hw newer then 10 years 18:10 sapier with even some newer hardware not working 18:10 sapier does urho3d support android? 18:10 Calinou would Urho3D support shaders as well as Irrlicht currently does? 18:11 celeron55 sapier: it does 18:11 celeron55 Calinou: it's unable to operate without shaders 18:11 sapier is it official or would we have to do as much as we'd have to do for irrlicht? 18:11 Calinou ah, that's OK 18:12 celeron55 sapier: it officially supports android 18:13 sapier ok so by now no "no-go" issue ... what do we get if we switch? 18:13 celeron55 its build system probably needs to be reworked for minetest though, and it's not available as a distro package anywhere, and the author does not recommend anyone to package it 18:13 Calinou that's a rather big problem 18:13 celeron55 it's a bit of a binary focused build system 18:14 sapier that's nothing for the positive list celeron55 ;-) 18:14 celeron55 because it's made for traditionally distributed binary games and not for open source projects 18:14 celeron55 (but it's MIT licensed itself) 18:15 sapier I guess estimating switching the engine would cost about half a year to a year ain't overestimating 18:15 celeron55 sapier: well... we for example get a Lua interface to every part of urho3d 18:15 sapier we'd need quite big improvements to justify doing this 18:15 celeron55 which may or may not be helpful 18:16 sapier I'm not sure if this would be a benefit, it'd be way more we'd have to secure ;-) 18:16 celeron55 that's the problem, there will never be anything that can be just plugged in place of irrlicht and which happens to do exactly what we want 18:17 celeron55 i mean, i haven't properly gone through this evaluation myself either 18:17 sapier nope don't get me wrong that's not what I expect. No matter if it's irrlicht or any other engine we had right now switching it is a lot of work. It's only reasonable if the new engine is way more better 18:17 celeron55 it would probably be quite a cultural shock to those used to how minetest builds 18:18 sapier e.g. if the new engine would provide whole gui including description language, that'd make me think about a switch 18:18 est31 why not use html 18:18 est31 instead of formspecs 18:18 sapier html doesn't specify the "active" part 18:19 est31 no javascript 18:19 est31 but you can send forms 18:19 est31 and have buttons 18:19 celeron55 sapier: it provides a fully lua-controllable gui, which i use in buildat (the project that i have abandoned due to too much work) by sending the client some lua and running it in a sandbox 18:19 est31 and you have 100% finished rendering engines 18:19 sapier yes that's what makes html at least somehow fit to our current design 18:19 celeron55 the gui has some dynamic layouting features 18:19 est31 html has css 18:19 est31 (and other layouting features too) 18:20 sapier to be honest I don't wanna programm a gui in lua manually ;-) 18:20 Calinou libRocket eats tons of CPU 18:20 sapier especally if it's dynamic layout 18:20 sapier things like that require a designer tool 18:22 celeron55 http://fpaste.org/168382/00535142/ 18:22 sapier but gui was just an example there could be other benefits worth it too 18:22 celeron55 here's some gui code in an experimental thing running on buildat 18:22 celeron55 you probably guessed it looks like that 18:22 celeron55 it's pretty much what an OOP gui system will always look like 18:23 sapier yes but still you can write simple guis that way but nothing complex 18:23 sapier it's like programming qt manually ... yes it is possible yet noone does it 18:23 sapier except some crazy ones maybe 18:24 celeron55 well, qt has QML which can only be programmed manually 18:24 sfan5 here's the one that happened the other day on one of my servers: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2001102015%20-%2001%3a03%3a25%20AM.png 18:24 celeron55 but it's more of a formspec-flavoured thing 18:24 sapier qtdesigner? 18:24 sfan5 it's a piece of art 18:24 celeron55 QML is a separate language 18:24 VanessaE sfan5: this by you is art? heh 18:24 celeron55 i think qtdesigner is only for reqular qt, at least last time i checked it was 18:25 sapier yes but for what I remember qml was added recently I'm quite sure they'll add a designer tool soon 18:25 celeron55 well yeah, it might be that they will add it 18:25 celeron55 anyway, if we want a gui that isn't programmed in that way, then we have no other option than to write it ourselves or just clean up formspecs a bit 18:26 celeron55 or a lot 18:26 sapier http://doc.qt.digia.com/qtcreator-2.3/creator-using-qt-quick-designer.html 18:26 sapier I'm not against a gui programmed that way I just wanna have a designer for it too ;-) 18:27 sapier we could rename formspec to mtfl ... and fix the historic issues ;-) 18:28 celeron55 well, urho3d supports xml too, but irrlicht does that too 18:28 celeron55 i actually originally attempted to make some menus in minetest in irrlicht xml (before Lua); it was awful 18:28 celeron55 you don't get complete control with it 18:29 sapier Are you sure we'd get full control by urho3d? 18:29 celeron55 nope 18:29 celeron55 i'm not advocating urho3d's xml at all 18:30 sapier At best we'd use something exisiting. html(subset) qml the gtk ui stuff (don't know how they call it) 18:30 celeron55 things always get awful at the point when you have to center a menu on the screen and keep it centered when the window is resized and then if you want to make some HUD with it, god forbid 18:30 sapier but thats quite a lot of work 18:31 sapier right now I'd be fine with irrlicht findig the correct ui element for my touch events ;-) 18:31 sfan5 why would we even use html? 18:31 celeron55 could we just remove UI 18:31 sfan5 and who'll write the html parser (hint: html is not xml) 18:31 celeron55 just make all menus as nodes in the game 18:32 celeron55 the main menu could be a world too! 18:32 sapier I'd love to see this celeron55 18:33 sfan5 hm 18:33 sfan5 mh 18:33 est31 sfan5 others. We just need to figure out how to get a renderer display content in front of ours 18:34 est31 there are a couple of permissively licensed html renderers 18:34 sfan5 random idea: you could make the redis backend connect to a remote redis server (that is read-only) and have like a continously updated tutorial world that way [or you could just do thing the normal way] 18:34 celeron55 html is not a gui language, it's awful doing that job 18:34 sfan5 est31: do you want to make minetest depend on webkit? 18:34 est31 um yea 18:35 sapier html is a form language at best 18:35 celeron55 conclusion: UI is insane, i don't understand why anyone would want to touch it 18:36 rubenwardy Doing the UI would interest me, but Minetest's code is insane. 18:36 rubenwardy Especially formspecs etc 18:37 celeron55 also i will respect sapier's insanity a lot if he still is willing to do *anything* to even design anything related to formspecs, lol 18:38 celeron55 i'm going to just live with what we have, it's absolutely not worth the effort to touch it 18:38 sapier well I'm gonna step back a few steps for some time ... I've been to close to quiting completely yesterday 18:38 sapier at least step back from formspec topic 18:39 celeron55 do you still happen to remember that the current networking implementation is a temporary solution until it is decided whether enet is good enough? 8) 18:41 * celeron55 imagines sapier is running away screaming at about 500 meters from his computer by now 18:41 sapier I know ... yet nobody ever did even try what I provided neither tcp nor enet implementation 18:42 sapier well at least the fixed version I had so much trouble to get in seems to work quite stable 18:42 celeron55 the whole thing was a stupid mess like usually 18:42 celeron55 but it seems by now that freeminer has proven that enet works well 18:42 rubenwardy It would be good to be able to do size[width()/2;height()/2] or something like that 18:43 sapier Well I don't doubt enet works 18:43 Calinou Freeminer has enet, how well does it work there? 18:43 Calinou does it really provide lower ping? 18:43 sfan5 who rewrites the server ping code in the server list when we switch to enet? 18:44 sapier I don't think it's providing less latency 18:44 celeron55 how do we test this 18:45 sapier I don't know I never was able to benchmarks enet's latency or jitter as it just lies about it 18:45 celeron55 what's the general case where people complain of lag? 18:45 sapier at least it did 18:45 celeron55 a busy server hosted with a low-bandwidth connection? 18:45 sapier a jitter of 0ms is just impossible 18:45 sfan5 sapier: depends on the connection 18:46 sapier not even ping manages to get exactly 0.0 ;-) 18:50 sapier If you guys like to test it I'm gonna rebase the enet code, it's most likely not a big deal as whole network stack is built for replacing the low level protocol 18:51 celeron55 last time you said something in networking was easy you used weeks to create the current monster implementation 8) 18:51 sapier nope I built tcp and enet in parallel same time 18:52 celeron55 well if it's easy, go ahead 18:52 celeron55 then remind us here every day that we need a way to test it 18:52 VanessaE will the existence of it break old clients?> 18:52 sapier formspec android and network protocol same time? are you sure you wanna be that insane 18:53 sapier If we do it the way I implemented enet code it's gonna be possible to run both protocols in parallel 18:54 sapier at different ports of course 18:54 celeron55 well we will certainly drop the old protocol after a version that supports both 18:54 sapier that's how I intended to do the transition 18:54 VanessaE that's fine 18:54 VanessaE I only ask because...well...you said you need testers/. 18:55 VanessaE and I've got several production servers that could be users as long as old clients can still play normally. 18:55 celeron55 yes, that seems somewhat useful for testing, altough i wonder how much the bandwidth competition between the protocols affects the result 18:55 VanessaE used* 18:56 sapier well you shouldn't mix it on testing ;-) 18:59 VanessaE well one of those servers is expressly intended for testing. 19:00 VanessaE I can move it to the enet port (or whatever) and let you all go at it there 19:00 VanessaE it's not heavily modded, just technic and plantlife (and they're mostly already played out) so it'll respond as fast as any other server should. 19:00 sapier yet it's not really usefull to compare enet to our current protocol. Anything but enet beeing better would be a surprise 19:01 sapier comparing enet to tcp would be way more open ;-) 19:12 Calinou TCP for real-time games? 19:12 Calinou enet was written because TCP was slow… 19:12 sapier Calinou: do you really think enets "reliable" communication is faster then tcp? ;-) 19:13 Calinou nope 19:13 Calinou but TCP makes everything reliable (AFAIK), which maybe isn't what you want… 19:13 Calinou is TCP programming easier or harder than UDP? 19:13 Calinou switching to TCP may simplify the code, if that is the case 19:14 sapier well if we did use tcp we'd have to use a mixed mode protocol 19:14 sapier partial udp partial txp 19:14 sapier tcp 19:15 sapier about as complex as udp, but way more fast if you wanna transmit large data 19:15 sapier e.g. textures 19:15 Calinou ah, right 19:15 Calinou if you do that, be sure to make an announcement, so that people update their port forwardings 19:15 sapier if I remember correct it's been about factor 100 to current and still about factor 10 compared to enet 19:16 sapier no 100 was compared to old implementation current is quite a lot faster ... yet not capable to beat enet 19:29 celeron55 i think enet would be a good compromise between simplicity and performance 19:30 celeron55 it's going to max out the general internet connection anyway 19:31 celeron55 or, i mean, average 19:35 VanessaE celeron55: define "average" 19:35 VanessaE here, that could mean 5 Mbps (sadly) 19:36 celeron55 dunno, probably under 1MB/s 19:36 Calinou this would make remote server more redundant 19:36 est31 64 kb is enough :D 19:36 Calinou if we can reach 1 MB/s 19:37 celeron55 i think the goal should be making it redundant 19:37 celeron55 so let's make sure to test that as one of the first things 19:41 Calinou yeah, it's good not to need a Web server 19:41 Calinou initially that was an hack 19:42 sapier Calinou: right now webserver is even slower then directly downloading textures 20:07 PilzAdam sapier, is it intentional that the mainmenu now scales with the window size? 20:09 sfan5 PilzAdam: probably intentional (still looks bad IMO) 20:10 VanessaE intentional, but a patch was proposed already 20:11 VanessaE https://gist.github.com/sapier/846662f8f8aecaff166a 20:11 VanessaE this, I think it was. 20:11 sapier true 20:15 rubenwardy http://rubenwardy.github.io/minetest_doc/chapters/releasing.html 20:15 rubenwardy oops 20:17 Calinou “protection” 20:17 Calinou copyright is not protection 20:17 Calinou it's a vicious term :/ 20:18 Calinou just my two 0.02 € 20:18 Calinou wrong channel anyway 20:19 sapier damn 20:19 sapier I never ever experienced some code just working after rebase 20:22 sapier celeron55 https://github.com/sapier/minetest/tree/network_addon_enet_6 ;-) rebase completed 20:23 sapier don't expect it to be polished there are a few parts missing yet everything required for testing is in there 20:29 sapier #2111 ... no comment 20:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2111 -- Problems with building 20:34 sapier kilbith: fixed or still open ? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2077 20:35 kilbith regarding the general complaining actually, still open. 20:35 sapier so formspec is still broken? 20:35 ezraanderson +sapier, do me input positions, x & y are in the wrong spot? 20:36 sapier ezraanderson: yes that's what seems to happen if I press somewhere the gui acts somewhere else 20:36 kilbith sapier, not broken, that's not the subject of the issue 20:36 ezraanderson give me 5, minutes, I have never tried it on an android phone 20:37 sapier sorry for asking kilbith I'm already getting headache again ... can you please settle this with Zeno and vanessae? 20:37 sapier ah and sfan5 of course 20:37 kilbith could you just try the suggestion of VanessaE yesterday ? (pixels = points/72*DPI) 20:37 sapier nope 20:38 sapier to get this done I'd have to touch almost any part of formspec 20:38 sapier result would be another variant 20:39 kilbith so you consider the current state as your best result you can do ? 20:39 kilbith (honestly) 20:39 sapier especially as I don't even exactly understand what pixels is meant because points/72*dpi will return some float value 20:40 sapier I already said two days ago I'm not gonna tune anything at current code the only further work for formspec I have provided was reverting back to 0.4.9 style ... which wasn't accepted too 20:41 sapier if I interpret vanessae's suggestion correct it's already implemented that way 20:41 kilbith we'll discuss further with Zeno to see how things can evolve 20:42 sapier do it this way 20:45 kilbith well, actually it's no longer really an issue (chat bug, header violation by tabs etc.) nor a good result either 20:45 kilbith so i guess i can close it 20:46 sapier define "good result"? 20:47 kilbith oh no, not again :'( 20:47 sapier well you're using those subjective terms ;-P 20:47 acerspyro Could be the politics "good result" expression, too. 20:48 kilbith my humble suggestions actually is to define 0.85 as default scaling and make the fonts a little more fat 20:49 kilbith but yeah, Irrlicht sucks for that 20:49 sapier well I don't care about forst one 20:49 sapier but I thought I'd have made clear we can't make this font more fat we'd have to exchange the font 20:51 kilbith initially, the user don't have to bother with .conf or strafe the settings tabs of click for adjust the scaling 20:51 kilbith so you should consider 0.85 as default 20:52 VanessaE kilbith: just change your default font face. 20:52 VanessaE font_path = /home/vanessa/.minetest/fonts/DejaVuSans.ttf 20:52 VanessaE mono_font_path = /home/vanessa/.minetest/fonts/DejaVuSansMono.ttf 20:52 VanessaE in minetest.conf 20:52 VanessaE point them to fonts that look good for you 20:52 kilbith i normally don't have to bother changing the font face 20:53 acerspyro Setting up the game should be easier than this. 20:53 acerspyro I agree. 20:53 sapier suggestions please not agreements ;-) 20:53 kilbith that ain't user-friendly 20:54 kilbith and a good game normally is for relax 20:55 sapier hmm we could sell mintest bundled to a pc including screen this way we could be sure it looks exaclty like it looks for us ;-) 20:55 acerspyro Dynamic font size? 20:55 sapier I know about a huge company doing it this way ... works quite good for them 20:56 acerspyro Strangely, I don't recall having to change the font size in any other game... 20:57 acerspyro I only play OSS stuff, btw. 20:57 sapier acerspyro: do you HAVE to do it here? 20:57 acerspyro I would love to 20:58 sapier well that's great because I can't remember any game where you even CAN change the font ;-) 20:58 acerspyro Cube 2 games 20:58 sapier I don't think there's alot of text in those games ;-) 20:58 acerspyro There's the chat, the death messages, the info messages... 20:59 sapier doesn't change the fact minetest already supports more features then most other games ;-) 21:00 acerspyro Wrong 21:00 acerspyro You can't even move your head. 21:01 sapier I don't remember head beeing related to fonts 21:01 acerspyro You changed the subject to the fact that MT supports more features than any other game 21:01 acerspyro While it can't do chat colors either, afaik 21:02 sapier I was talking about fonts only 21:02 sapier no need to switch topic as we always have been talking about fonts 21:13 kilbith i just tester the DejaVuSans font and the result is worse than before : https://lut.im/8Yv98312/sxTeGIFP 21:13 kilbith tested* 21:13 kilbith awful 21:14 kilbith unless if you're strongly myopic 21:15 acerspyro omg dem static menus 21:15 VanessaE kilbith: gui_scaling is set back to normal? 21:15 acerspyro y u no dynamic GUI? 21:15 kilbith yep, scale cleaned in .conf 21:15 kilbith at 1.0 in that screenie 21:15 VanessaE kilbith: then just turn the font size down. obviously DPI isn't detected correctly on your machine 21:16 VanessaE font_size = 10 21:16 VanessaE mono_font_size = 10 21:16 VanessaE see what that does 21:17 VanessaE (just guessing based on your screenshot) 21:18 kilbith https://lut.im/oT1V4QFS/rEY80DIE 21:18 VanessaE ok I was close. try 12 instead of 10 21:18 VanessaE better yet, 14 21:18 VanessaE I'm curious. 21:19 kilbith 14 : https://lut.im/dkgG99hQ/iXLrfP6h 21:20 VanessaE ok then for you I guess 12 or 13 would be about right. 21:20 kilbith and i repeat : i normally don't have to bother with .conf like that. the average user won't. 21:20 acerspyro ^The words I couldn't find 21:20 VanessaE sure, but first we need to find out the difference between you and what "should" happen 21:20 acerspyro "The average user won't" 21:22 VanessaE (I wanna know why kilbith's fonts are coming up ~50% larger than they should be to begin with) 21:22 kilbith well, 13 is nice : https://lut.im/Gn68MNiK/sCQy8y8B 21:23 VanessaE kilbith: yeah, that's about consistent with what should normally be - and you're sure you're at git HEAD now? 21:23 sapier kilbith: are you on linux or windows? 21:23 acerspyro sapier: facepalm for you sie 21:23 Calinou he's not on Windows, look at window decorations 21:23 acerspyro sir* 21:24 VanessaE I can't begin to guess what distro or DE that even is.. 21:24 acerspyro Unless LXDE has been ported to Windows... 21:24 kilbith VanessaE: was testing on latest launchpad build - but i can test with Git HEAD, it'd identical 21:24 sapier or he uses some lxde theme 21:24 acerspyro VanessaE: It's LXDE, looks like Mint 21:24 kilbith sapier: Lubuntu 14.04 21:24 acerspyro Or another Ubuntu variant 21:24 VanessaE kilbith: latest launchpad build? how old is that anyway? 21:24 sapier is lubuntu still x11? 21:24 kilbith about 20h 21:24 acerspyro VanessaE: very. 21:25 acerspyro :P 21:25 Calinou yes, sapier 21:25 sapier 20h :-) 21:25 Calinou almost all distributions use Xorg by default 21:25 kilbith https://code.launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/+archive/ubuntu/daily-builds/+packages 21:25 sapier well that's ancient 21:25 Calinou does Minetest run on Wayland or Mir (without compatibility layers) anyway? 21:25 kilbith 22h old to be exact 21:25 sapier Calinou: that's gonna change soon 21:25 acerspyro 0.4.11 came to OpenSUSE's repos about a day after its release. 21:26 kilbith sfan5 seems use the same default font as me too 21:26 sfan5 Calinou: i don't think it does 21:27 sapier 22h is quite useless to discuss about while we're about to fix it you meed latest HEAD to be able to participate the discussion 21:27 VanessaE and 22h ago, who even knows how old the commits are that went into it? 21:27 sapier Calinou: compatibility layers just provide compatibility not necessary same behaviour 21:27 kilbith always trying to invalidate my problems, eh ;) 21:27 VanessaE kilbith: basic tenet of science ;) 21:28 kilbith https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commits/master 21:28 VanessaE "Make me a liar, Fish!" (Dr. Ellie Arroway, "Contact") 21:28 kilbith ^ latest build built after b7c... 21:28 kilbith so your remark is irrelevant sapier 21:29 sapier if it's b7c0e4b3336ef5bdb0bdd6baa3257787886b2c73 your build should be fine to discuss the issue 21:30 kilbith the followed commits concerned android only 21:30 sapier then try to find out why it's looking that different for you 21:30 kilbith but ok, i'll compile right now 21:31 sapier I suggest debug build and RUN_IN_PLACE to have commit in screenshots as well as be sure no other minetest.conf file is used 21:31 kilbith sure 21:31 kilbith hmm, debug build ? 21:32 sapier -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Debug 21:32 Calinou sapier, thanks for increasing step height on Android! 21:32 sapier Calinou: I don't know why this wasn't done some time ago the suggestion was there for about half a year 21:52 kilbith what's the... https://lut.im/mcavuaCy/Mr01yp1u first starting, not even a .conf generated, and the scaling is iniatially perfect O.o 21:52 kilbith Vanessa, sapier ^ 21:53 sapier ok now build release to make sure it's not behaving different for you 21:53 sapier DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release 21:53 kilbith 'k 21:54 VanessaE ok then we know you had something bad in your conf 21:54 VanessaE (because I run a debug build) 21:54 sapier he does do this right now to 21:55 VanessaE oh right 21:55 VanessaE misread. I need new glasses or eyes or something. 21:55 kilbith no, my previous Git build (2 days ago) with RUN_IN_PLACE=1 behaved like the launchpad build 21:55 sapier well I need a new keyboard it's always missing or exchanging keys 21:55 kilbith with a virgin .conf 21:55 sapier 2 days ago is quite old 21:59 VanessaE it's interesting to note that his locale reverted to english.. 22:12 kilbith Release build, initial display : https://lut.im/LmYdSk31/KT1qKG0M 22:12 kilbith ^ sapier 22:13 VanessaE lgtm. 22:13 kilbith thats just similar 22:13 sapier looks like current head is fine? 22:14 kilbith yes, fine :) 22:14 sapier is it possible that dayly build uses some config file you missed? 22:14 kilbith so i take off what i said to you, it's a good work and i close my issue 22:15 VanessaE well wait 22:15 VanessaE sapier's question is valid 22:15 VanessaE what is the buildbot on launchpad doing to fuck up the fonts? 22:16 kilbith but there's still a zone of mystery : yesterday i removed my .conf before installing the latest .deb, this .deb has been built before the android commits only, and i still had those monstruous fonts... 22:16 kilbith X-files.mp3 22:18 VanessaE now who gets to merge sapier's fixed-size-formspecs gist? :) 22:22 VanessaE sapier: I know you don't want to touch formspecs but imho the best way to solve the entire mess is a revamped formspec language (whatever form it takes - HTML, XML, formspec tables, who knows) but with a slightly different method of summoning them 22:23 VanessaE just like with two network stacks, the old way could be marked deprecated, read-only like you suggested, and be discontinued some day in the far future 22:23 VanessaE or link against QT ;) 22:26 sapier he just told the current variant is fine if he doesn't like the one after freverting those changes I'll have to do this discussion again. I provided the code. It's up to someone else to decide if it's supposed to be that way. 22:26 VanessaE sapier: right. the fonts are good in 99% of cases now I think. 22:46 acerspyro The hand item should really be the player's arm with the skin on it, like in Minecraft. The potato is just really weird. 22:47 sapier mt != mc 22:48 ezraanderson :) 22:51 ezraanderson mt > mc ? 22:52 acerspyro sapier: you really need to make a book on killing conversations you don't want to take place. You're really good at it .-. 22:59 sapier If I were good at it it'd not have taken 5 days to settle that dispute 23:01 VanessaE sapier: to be fair, most of that time was wasted due to time zone differences 23:01 VanessaE lemme rephrase that 23:02 VanessaE most of that wasted time* 23:02 sapier considering this dispute beein spread across three continents that's been one of the factors true 23:03 VanessaE I'd say it was the main factor 23:03 VanessaE it's hard enough to get two people to agree on anything here as it is :) 23:03 VanessaE (that's when they're already together) 23:04 VanessaE then we have kilbith's issue caused by launchpad's build being somehow botched 23:04 sapier I wouldn't say it's main factor but lets let it stay what it is ... history 23:05 VanessaE yeah 23:21 celeron55 i would love to see what a mailing list would do to these discussions 23:22 celeron55 i'm not a fan of them, but from a practical standpoint it would seem like it would encourage actually thinking things and not just shouting what comes to mind 23:25 celeron55 well, or, we could just try to move onto the forum 23:27 celeron55 dunno, i'll probably do nothing to achieve any of this; just a thought