Time Nick Message 01:20 ShadowNinja c55's never voiced, not sure why. I guess he chose that. 01:22 ShadowNinja 8 lights per scene node sounds like a ridiculously low limit. Are you sure we're doing this right? Maybe every node should be a scene node, but I'd think that would be very slow. 01:23 ShadowNinja We could create scene nodes for every light source though (or combine them with a little extra logic). That shouldn't be too slow. 01:23 ShadowNinja Unless 8 per scene node means 8 affecting the scene node. 01:56 ShadowNinja Also, how should I go about changing the DB schema? I'll have to record a version somewhere. maybe sqlite3-schema-version = 1 in map_meta.txt? 01:57 ShadowNinja Seperate x, y, and z coordinates would let SQLite3's optimizer optimize queries better. 02:25 hmmmm no, dammit! 02:25 hmmmm i thought we decided we're going to generate lightmaps on the fly 02:26 hmmmm dynamic lights should be used very sparingly - like for a torch the player is holding 02:47 paramat i think the plan is hardware lighting for sun/moon only, because 8 per scenenode is obviously too few, even with 1 scenenode per mapblock 02:49 VanessaE how about poking at RealBadAngel instead of guessing? :P 02:52 paramat hmmmm, want to be the new audiovisual manager? RBA needs someone who is around when he is, see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1710 02:53 paramat my first pull request for a very long time https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/328 (for minetest game devs) 04:10 hmmmm meh, i'm not going to make promises of being around in any capacity... i just hope to get some commits in because there's a lot of stuff on my own backlog, that's all 04:12 hmmmm I'm still weary about adding NodeResolver to INodeDefManager. 04:44 RealBadAngel what i want is another coder that will actually work on the stuff with me 04:45 RealBadAngel c55 is a great coder but pure virtual, he does nothing but complain 04:46 RealBadAngel actually its a way easier to complain than to code something 04:46 RealBadAngel maybe a middle age crysis? 04:47 RealBadAngel "lets ""talk"" about sex" 04:48 RealBadAngel voila 04:48 RealBadAngel here he comes 04:49 celeron55 you should note that nick changes are global to freenode 04:49 RealBadAngel i know 04:49 celeron55 i didn't come to this channel 04:49 RealBadAngel i explained that to folks 04:50 RealBadAngel but i guess thats not the point 04:50 celeron55 also, i don't complain a lot 04:51 celeron55 i mainly complain when someone pings me and asks me to complain 04:51 celeron55 which happens rarely now 04:51 RealBadAngel you do when it comes to my code 04:52 celeron55 no i don't, that's just bullshit 04:52 celeron55 i did at some point but now you're just recycling your old memories 04:52 RealBadAngel not so old 04:53 RealBadAngel but lets leave that behind 04:54 RealBadAngel as i said previously, i need some1 to work with me 04:54 celeron55 altough, "he does nothing but complain" might be valid as even while i do it little, i don't do anything else 8) 04:55 RealBadAngel so wake up buddy 04:55 RealBadAngel theres lotsa to do 04:56 RealBadAngel ive spent lots of time learning irrlicht 04:56 RealBadAngel and i know how to make things work 04:58 RealBadAngel youre the guru here anyway, who knows, maybe bill still have some spare billions just to buy you out ;) 05:00 RealBadAngel but definitely he wont pay if u will be doing nothing 05:02 RealBadAngel but seriously, we are about to have biggest changes since 0.4 05:03 RealBadAngel meshes and lighting are huge changes that require massive code changes 05:03 RealBadAngel im not able to change it all even in the series of small pulls 05:04 RealBadAngel single adding the mesh drawtype require MANY changes 05:05 RealBadAngel only you and kahrl here are able to comment it 05:05 RealBadAngel SN will be able to comment the style and whitespaces 05:05 RealBadAngel sapier seems to be on vacations 05:06 RealBadAngel rest dont know what im doing 05:06 hmmmm hrm 05:06 RealBadAngel yes, including you 05:07 hmmmm celeron55, so would you get upset if I added something to INodeDefManager? 05:07 RealBadAngel sorry to say that but we are highly specialized 05:07 RealBadAngel sometimes its good, sometimes bad 05:08 hmmmm I don't know much about Irrlicht, but I'm willing to learn to get things accomplished 05:09 RealBadAngel hmmmm, as they say, man learn whole the life. and dies stupid. 05:09 hmmmm I sorta gave up on the mapblock-as-a-scenenode thing because I found out that Minecraft used hardware occlusion queries and it sucked 05:10 RealBadAngel i also had "funny" ideas and gave up 05:10 hmmmm does minetest already have support for a wireframe mode? 05:10 VanessaE not directly, no. 05:10 hmmmm meh trivial to change 05:11 RealBadAngel why would we need that? 05:11 hmmmm setMaterialFlag -> irr::video::EMF_WIREFRAME 05:11 hmmmm to see how much we really are overdrawing 05:11 RealBadAngel no need to 05:11 VanessaE hmmmm: ShadowNinja I think showed that recently, or someone did 05:11 RealBadAngel there are built in methods to reduce the vertices 05:11 VanessaE no, wait, not SN 05:11 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Note that no-cliping disables occlusion culling. 05:11 VanessaE one of the new guys did 05:12 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Nah, that was me. 05:12 VanessaE oh ok 05:12 VanessaE wait a minute, wtf are you doing up this late? :) 05:12 celeron55 hmmmm: dunno, for what purpose? 05:12 * ShadowNinja hides 05:13 VanessaE ShadowNinja: that reminds me, how far did you get with that guy's culling algorithm? 05:13 hmmmm you remember those resolveNodeNames() that many of my register-nodes-in-lua-then-do-mapgen-thing features have 05:13 * celeron55 is early, not late 8)/ 05:13 hmmmm well I got rid of those and made a centralized NodeResolver class 05:13 hmmmm naturally I'd put it into nodedef, but you have it set up as an abstract interface 05:14 RealBadAngel celeron55, and as usual. i talked too much, touched a wall. you are just avoiding the problems 05:14 hmmmm what other implementations of node def managers DID you intend to have anyway? 05:15 celeron55 RealBadAngel: i didn't even read what you said last; and yes, i am avoiding problems because that is the only way to keep the time down that i spend on minetest 05:16 ShadowNinja VanessaE: I haven't touched any culling code. 05:16 RealBadAngel celeron55, give the av to anybody else, sn, nore or blocken 05:16 VanessaE ShadowNinja: oh ok, then it WAS one of the new guys who was involved there. 05:16 RealBadAngel so i could work with somebody for christ sake 05:16 celeron55 hmmmm: it's my way of coding C++ that i have begun to use in the past few years where i make an interface to anything that is remotely complex so that implementation details have no chance of getting into header files (and headers stay simple with little dependencies) 05:17 celeron55 i've found this a very good way to do things 05:18 celeron55 of course, in some cases there can be many implementations (they are obviously easy to add anytime when needed) 05:19 hmmmm something something premature abstraction 05:20 hmmmm celeron, http://sebastiansylvan.com/2013/08/16/the-perils-of-future-coding/ 05:20 celeron55 it makes coding much nicer because i can freely inline the whole implementation class 05:20 RealBadAngel licking an icecram through glass 05:20 celeron55 i've always hated C++'s class implementation syntax 05:20 RealBadAngel either something is fast and designed to do things or it is universal and worth shit 05:21 celeron55 so it's easier to code this way with less repetition 05:21 hmmmm well 05:21 celeron55 so i'm actually with that article 05:21 hmmmm I coded like 4 things that repeat themselves in varying capacity 05:21 RealBadAngel and so called flexibility and objects are just a mistake 05:21 RealBadAngel nowadays coders are "coders" 05:21 hmmmm it lets me see exactly which common elements there are 05:22 hmmmm like exactly what I'm doing here 05:22 RealBadAngel thats why m$ and intel are earning money 05:23 celeron55 i didn't understand what either of you just said 05:23 RealBadAngel before we had the very same platforms any only thing to change was the code 05:23 RealBadAngel and the style 05:23 RealBadAngel do the same thing but faster 05:23 RealBadAngel now you are talking bout headers 05:23 RealBadAngel rotfl 05:24 hmmmm meh, i was going to elaborate further, but i'd rather not interrupt another conversation to do so. 05:24 RealBadAngel count the cycles of your code 05:25 VanessaE celeron55: my husband likes to say that there are "coders", and there are "programmers". The former just writes code just for the sake of writing code, without giving it much though whether that code works outside a very narrow set of parameters (e.g. it's paid for by some employer, who cares if an average Joe Sixpack can use it, etc). And the latter is most of us here, people who want their code to form a cohesive proje 05:25 VanessaE ct that is useful and generally looks good to the average person. 05:25 celeron55 VanessaE: ok; so what is the point? i don't understand why RBA started talking about something like this 05:25 VanessaE I'm not sure I necessarily agree with his choice of the two words, but he sentiment is correct I think. 05:26 RealBadAngel celeron55, you dont know? im trying to push things around 05:26 RealBadAngel stop talkin bout abstracts 05:26 VanessaE what he's trying to say, I think, is that there's too much "let's just write some code just to write some code" and not enough "let's write some code that accomplishes a goal" 05:26 RealBadAngel do the code 05:26 celeron55 RealBadAngel: i don't care about anything you have said, and i was not talking to you but hmmmm 05:26 celeron55 hmmmm: could you please continue your discussion, this is fucking ridiculous 05:27 RealBadAngel sure 05:27 VanessaE (I'm done) 05:27 RealBadAngel as usual 05:27 hmmmm i think RBA is mad 05:27 RealBadAngel we cant code because you dont care :P 05:28 RealBadAngel yes im mad because im still trying to contribute 05:28 celeron55 RealBadAngel: can you point me to an issue that needs something from me instead of talking about philosophies 05:28 RealBadAngel celeron55, yes, we need to implement lights 05:29 celeron55 ok, what's the problem? 05:29 RealBadAngel simplify servers one to light level 05:29 RealBadAngel and add client side irrlicht real light sources 05:30 RealBadAngel problem is that a scene node can have 8 directional lights 05:30 hmmmm heh, it's ironic. not meaning to be offensive, but i find that RBA often says more words than is necessary but he advocates coding the minimum that is necessary to get whatever the task is accomplished. 05:30 RealBadAngel so propably we need a hybrid system 05:31 celeron55 hmmmm: i find that even frustrating 05:31 celeron55 RealBadAngel: so what is your solution to that? 05:31 celeron55 8 directional lights per node is more than enough, but i'm guessing you can't change them per node when rendering 05:31 celeron55 8 per mapblock isn't enough 05:31 RealBadAngel hmmmm, celeron55 whats the point for pulling the big changes if even a few liners are blocked? 05:32 RealBadAngel celeron55, its a limit per scene node 05:32 hmmmm the solution isn't to make each mapnode a scene node. 05:32 celeron55 pulling big changes gives a much higher benefit for the amount of work required from the puller 05:32 hmmmm the solution is to dynamically generate a lightmap alongside the meshes and simply not use dynamic lights 05:32 celeron55 i.e. i can do it as a one-off thing, but i can't do many small pulls every day 05:33 RealBadAngel not when you need to constantly rebase the pulls 05:33 RealBadAngel lately im forced to rebase vs my own code 05:34 celeron55 assuming a clean implementation of this appears, i can handle the merging; what else do you expect? 05:35 RealBadAngel nothing more 05:35 celeron55 well, there are compatibility concerns but i am favourably biased now that i have had a computer for one year that can run anything you may come up with 05:35 celeron55 so someone else has to push that concern if it still is a valid concern 05:35 OldCoder VanessaE, I'll discuss the off-topic definition that Abe made of a Coder with you later 05:35 VanessaE OldCoder: ok. 05:42 RealBadAngel celeron55, in a few days i will make a pull with meshes drawtype and converting nodeboexes into meshes 05:43 RealBadAngel when im done with meshes i will add the lights 05:44 RealBadAngel hope you will find time to review the changes 05:46 celeron55 i hope they are sane enough to pass my review 05:57 RealBadAngel i will try 10:32 jin_xi hey nore can you help me understand camera_offset? i am trying to move particle handling more to irrlicht side but fail when more than 200 nodes away from origin 11:11 BlockMen would like to merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1711 11:11 BlockMen comments? 11:27 Zeno` I am afraid to say 11:27 Zeno` there is still no early exit 11:30 Zeno` e.g. http://codepad.org/4GCX1fel 11:31 Zeno` Which is what hmmmm was suggesting I think 11:32 Krock BlockMen, you'll get a +1 from me 11:33 BlockMen Zeno`, i wrote my opinion on that already 11:34 Zeno` I couldn't see it 11:34 Zeno` nvm 11:34 nore jin_xi: everything is translated by camera_offset iirc 11:35 Zeno` All I can see is "Also, please modify the flow of parseColorString to "bail out early" if not hexstring, rather than encasing almost the entire body of the function in an if statement's block." 11:35 Zeno` Maybe I am blind 11:35 nore BlockMen, I like that 11:36 BlockMen Zeno`, its has to be done this way or the other way round for this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1711/files#diff-765e4fc5d8245871d9a5a4db834e4631R360 11:39 Zeno` That needs to be moved to line 318 then I guess 11:40 Zeno` meh, not that I care much :) 11:58 Zeno` Although, I'm not sure why you asked for feedback if you didn't want it 12:04 BlockMen Zeno`, since i said "want to merge" i was aiming mainly for core dev comments. 12:05 BlockMen but since im already working on that function: https://github.com/BlockMen/minetest/commit/0c49d505c7f6d638a36f04423b6290fa2006591c 12:06 BlockMen huos 12:06 BlockMen *ups 12:10 Zeno` not quite right but the idea is looking good 12:10 Zeno` e.g keeping your current flow the switch should probably be contained within an if 12:10 Zeno` i.e. only try a named colour if the hexpattern failed 12:17 Zeno` personally I'd make two new functions 12:23 Zeno` Since when can you use string values in a switch anyway? 12:26 BlockMen you cant, thats why i wrote ups :D 12:27 Zeno` oh :) 12:51 PilzAdam in Java you can use strings in switch 13:02 Zeno` I've never been to Java 13:07 * sfan5 meows at PilzAdam 13:52 BlockMen updated https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1711 again. travis build passed 13:52 BlockMen if noone claims anything im going to merge it in 30 minutes then 13:53 sfan5 "if noone claims anything im going to merge it in 30 minutes then" 13:53 sfan5 thats not how it works 13:54 BlockMen nore agreed on it? 13:55 sfan5 he did? then it's ok 13:55 nore BlockMen, I agree on what it does, but I didn't test it, but the code looks fine 13:55 nore (well, I didn't read it very precisely either) 13:56 BlockMen hmm..maybe we should make write down that agree means "another dev has to write agree". then we prevent missunderstandings ;) 13:57 nore so to be clear: I agree on what it does, the code looks fine, but I didn't test it 13:57 BlockMen ok, then i change "will merge in 30 minutes" to "can someone check again and agree so i can merge?" 13:58 sfan5 BlockMen: see github comments 14:01 Megaf Hi all, is this a bug? http://paste.debian.net/plain/124590 14:02 sfan5 no it's feature 14:02 sfan5 why are you even asking 14:02 sfan5 it's obviously a bug 14:03 jin_xi aziz got quite the beating 14:04 kahrl what thread is that even, its ID does not show up in the debug stacks report 14:04 sfan5 probably the connectionthread 14:04 Megaf I'm asking if I should open open an issue or not 14:04 sfan5 it seems to be missing 14:06 Zeno` why doesn't parseColorString() call two other functions: parseHexPattern() or parseNamedColor()? It would be more readable and also enable getting rid of the unnecessary goto 14:06 kahrl does anyone else get the double free crashes etc that Megaf gets? 14:06 Zeno` kahrl, I have once 14:07 Zeno` haven't been able to reproduce it 14:07 kahrl nonetheless at the rate Megaf gets them I would suggest doing a memtest on that machine 14:07 Megaf several crashes that I have are hard to reproduce, sometime my server stays online for a week with no crashes 14:08 Megaf kahrl: I think no one leave minetestserver running for as long as I do 14:08 Zeno` the time it happened to me I was running valgrind, so perhaps it's time related... I don't know 14:08 kahrl anyone that runs a public server probably does 14:09 sfan5 83.165.141.101 1/15 0/1 0.4.10, minetest, ? Cre Dmg PvP 13.3d, 19.9d 48, 100 14:09 sfan5 uptime 13.3d 14:10 sfan5 too bad we can't ask that person 14:11 BlockMen sfan5, everything changed 14:12 sfan5 BlockMen: what about https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1711#discussion_r18435335 ? 14:13 BlockMen sfan5, blame github https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1711/files#diff-1305560bd8befb32862f0feeefabd02eR1239 14:13 sfan5 "ColorString:" doesn't really make sense because it looks like it's part of " Inventory location:" 14:13 sfan5 oh 14:13 sfan5 what about removing the : 14:13 BlockMen y? 14:14 sfan5 because it's like that everywhere else 14:14 Zeno` what about writing the code properly? If you're moving it why not fix it so that it's a bit more sane? 14:14 BlockMen there is no clear system in doc 14:14 BlockMen or is? 14:14 Zeno` (I don't agree with functions that try to do so many things for no benefit) 14:15 Zeno` I know you didn't write the original code 14:16 sfan5 BlockMen: if you want to remove the : do that, if not you still have my approval 14:17 BlockMen sfan5, k i will remove it. 14:17 BlockMen also, two commits? one for [colorize and one for named colors? 14:17 BlockMen or "all in one"? 14:17 kahrl BlockMen: why are there only 5 named colors? what about yellow, cyan, magenta, ...? 14:18 sfan5 BlockMen: 2 commits is fine 14:18 BlockMen kahrl, and where do you want stop? 14:18 kahrl VGA palette or netscape palette 14:18 kahrl the VGA palette is probably enough 14:19 BlockMen wut? 14:20 kahrl err, I mean the 16 color palette 14:21 kahrl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_8-bit_computer_hardware_palettes#CGA 14:21 kahrl either that or use the colors from the wool mod 14:22 kahrl I think the wool/dye mod colors would actually be best 14:24 BlockMen then i prefer the 8 color palette 14:24 Zeno` The whole function should really be as simple as: bool success; if (value[0] == '#') { success = parseHexColor(value, color); } else { success = parseNamedColor(value, color); } if (!success && !quiet) errorstream << "Invalid color: \"" << value << "\"" << std::endl; return success; 14:24 BlockMen *more 14:24 Zeno` No goto, no confusion, simple 14:25 BlockMen ok. how about that. i will make another pull for the color name stuff 14:25 BlockMen and just merge the [colorize part now 14:25 BlockMen then its clean sepperated 14:25 BlockMen and everyone can comment there what he thinks is best 14:29 Megaf Why dont you make something useful? 14:30 Megaf like track bugs now and optimze the code? 14:30 Megaf common 14:30 rubenwardy Easier said than done, really. Any open bug reports? 14:30 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Abug 14:31 Zeno` I really don't understand why minetest makes things harder than they should be :( 14:32 Megaf This is a serious bug that happens on ALL platforms and you still have no clue on it https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1512 14:32 Zeno` It's related to opening the "progress bar" 14:33 Zeno` Beyond that I don't know because the code is confusing 14:33 Zeno` It *may* even be an irrlicht bug... 14:35 Megaf And this is also a interesting bug, "a player is lost" 14:35 Megaf https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1649#issuecomment-56878162 14:39 BlockMen ok, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1711/ is now [colorize only 14:41 BlockMen can i merge that now? 14:41 * Megaf gives thumbs down 14:42 kahrl BlockMen: include irrlichttyped_bloated instead of _extrabloated 14:42 kahrl -d +s 14:44 kahrl https://github.com/BlockMen/minetest/commit/c8f2832fddb858ffcdeceda90525815640e60e8a#diff-d5a2988ef5cf71bce4a479a2e1b49426R1611 is indented too much 14:44 Zeno` I'd prefer it to be: bool success; if (value[0] == '#') { success = parseHexColor(value, color); } else { success = false; } if (!success && !quiet) errorstream << "Invalid color: \"" << value << "\"" << std::endl; return success; 14:45 Zeno` Why the aversion to functions? 14:46 kahrl I agree with Zeno` 14:46 kahrl although I'd initialize success = false and remove the else 14:47 Zeno` either way 14:47 BlockMen i will do that in the next pull for the color names 14:47 BlockMen (zenos functions) 14:50 BlockMen kahrl, both comments of you fixed. can i merge? 14:51 kahrl BlockMen: go ahead 14:52 kahrl Megaf: if #1512 is so important to you, you might have more luck getting it fixed if you help (e.g. bisecting) 14:58 kahrl it seems you have more luck reproducing that bug than I so it would be great if you did the bisecting 15:15 BlockMen pull for named colors https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1720 15:16 VanessaE BlockMen: use unified dyed palette for names ;) 15:17 BlockMen VanessaE, lel 15:17 BlockMen good joke ;D 15:17 VanessaE that'll cover everyone's use cases :P 15:18 VanessaE actually, it's only 12 hues anyways plus light/dark/etc 15:36 BlockMen sfan5, did you create this branch? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/tree/unknown_node_tex 15:45 sfan5 BlockMen: yes, accidentally 15:45 sfan5 feel free to remove it 15:45 VanessaE awww 15:46 VanessaE I like that "sick mac" texture :) 15:46 VanessaE seems like a shame to discard it. can't it be used for something? 15:47 BlockMen VanessaE, if we would have bedrock it could be used 15:48 BlockMen or add an easteregg 15:48 VanessaE well we DO need some kind of bedrock actually 15:49 VanessaE but I don't see how that image would be associated with that 15:49 VanessaE as an easter egg, however, definitely 15:49 VanessaE bedrock has to be done by the core mapgen though, not by Lua. too slow otherwise 15:50 * nore likes the easter egg idea 15:51 VanessaE just put a few layers of it down at -30924-7, with a slight "landscape" to it (i.e. not perfectly flat), add a couple of .conf settings to control what Y coords it is generated at 15:51 VanessaE simple enough 15:51 VanessaE use ShadowNinja's bedrock node name and textures 15:51 nore bedrock has to be done by the core mapgen though, not by Lua. too slow otherwise <-- even with voxel manip? 15:52 VanessaE nore: I'm pretty sure, yeah. 15:53 VanessaE paramat would know better than me, but it's surely faster to write precisely the nodes that need written directly in the engine, than to do a vmanip fetch, fill the nodes in Lua, and write it out 15:53 nore I'm almost sure you can get below 0.1s/chunck 15:53 nore of course, it would be faster in C++ 15:53 VanessaE I would think core could do it in a tench of the time, and when it comes to mapgen, it needs to be as fast as possible 15:53 nore but 0.1s/chunck seems already low enough 15:53 VanessaE this is a case where specializing is absolutely recommended. 15:54 Zeno` 60ms (on my machine) just to get the vmanip data 15:54 VanessaE you could always configure it in the map_meta.txt or minetest.conf or something, and alias the mapgen'd nodes like usual, if you wanted it to be something different than bedrock at the bottom of the world 15:54 nore well, it would be under 60ms to modify it 15:55 nore and perhaps another 60 to write 15:55 nore that would make less that 0.2s total 15:55 BlockMen hmm..i dont thing it would be that slow with VM 15:55 BlockMen i can cenerate jungle in 139 ms 15:55 BlockMen then bedrock should be done much faster 15:55 VanessaE that's already well over 0.1s per chunk. How much time to write 2*6400 nodes? 15:55 Zeno` In C or C++ I could generate the entire chunk in that time. Sure, 60ms doesn't sound a lot but when you have a server with, maybe, 15 players all triggering mapgen it does make a difference 15:56 hmmmm that's a misunderstanding of how the mapgen works. 15:57 Zeno` hmmmm, really? 15:57 BlockMen sfan5, done 15:57 hmmmm the first player to have that block within their view is the one that starts the generation (or at least queues it) 15:57 Zeno` the players are all over the place though 15:57 hmmmm I don't see how a bedrock mod would be "intensive" 15:58 hmmmm you just check the coordinates, if it's a chunk that's on the edge, start generating bedrock 16:00 VanessaE that's fine for getting the generator going, but that doesn't speak for how long it takes to populate the chunk 16:01 VanessaE it'll certainly be faster than the stuff I usually do of course, since you don't have to check the land for anything, just blindly overwrite it 16:01 sfan5 BlockMen: close the pull request too then 16:01 VanessaE but speed is *critical* here 16:01 VanessaE this is core mapgen we're talking about 16:01 BlockMen its closed 3 days already 16:01 hmmmm critical at the nether boundaries of the map...? 16:01 BlockMen *or something like that 16:02 hmmmm how much time are people going to spend there for real 16:02 hmmmm bedrock is mod material. 16:02 VanessaE hmmmm: mapgen speed is always critical, and I've had plenty of players go to the boundaries of my maps in the past. 16:02 VanessaE hmmmm: that's fine if it's in a mod. 16:02 VanessaE hmmmm: but as soon as someone proposes putting it into minetest as a default component, it becomes engine material 16:03 VanessaE hmmmm: remember, one player milling about in new terrain affects *everyone*. 16:05 BlockMen i dont see any reason to add bedrock to minetest 16:05 VanessaE BlockMen: for completeness. 16:06 VanessaE if it's not bedrock then something else 16:06 VanessaE there should not be an empty void at the bottom of the world. 16:06 VanessaE put unbreakable nyan cats there if you want. 16:06 Zeno` that's right! There should be turtles 16:06 VanessaE or unbreakable bright green cobble. it doesn't matter 16:06 VanessaE whatever it is, it should NOT be an empty void. 16:06 BlockMen it should be obvious that there comes not more at a deep like -31000 16:07 VanessaE BlockMen: so you think a player standing on an empty void looks good? 16:07 VanessaE to the player, it looks like the map is refusing to load. 16:07 kilbith it's currently better to focus on the snow biomes than bedrock, imho 16:07 VanessaE to the player, it looks like a bug. 16:07 BlockMen VanessaE, do you really think a player standing there says: damn, that is shit. i will stip playing mt now 16:07 Zeno` the player expects turtles 16:08 Zeno` BlockMen, actually they do 16:08 VanessaE BlockMen: actually yes, I have had players say almost that ues 16:08 BlockMen lel 16:08 VanessaE yes* 16:08 VanessaE BlockMen: players see that shit and think "wtf? there's no bottom?" 16:08 VanessaE they don't quit playing, but they get a negative impression of an unpolished game 16:09 Krock updated #1715 16:09 rubenwardy I agree with adding bedrock, or similar. Maybe a massive lava ocean? 16:09 BlockMen and what will they do at the egde of surface? 16:09 BlockMen do you want there also a wall? 16:09 VanessaE BlockMen: that's a totally different matter 16:10 VanessaE the player isn't ***standing*** there 16:11 VanessaE BlockMen: actually a short (<50 nodes tall) wall made of stone wouldn't be out of the question. It would look like a natural formation 16:11 VanessaE but that's a totally different matter than the bottom of the world, where the player can actually *walk on the void* 16:12 VanessaE MC has its farlands for the X/Z limits, which may as well be the same as those short walls 16:12 BlockMen VanessaE, i dont see any problem here 16:12 VanessaE (difference there is, aside from caves being generated in them, is the world is extremely glitchy past those points) 16:12 BlockMen if you look down its gray 16:13 BlockMen that enough for the bottom of world 16:14 hmmmm i can't understand how you people could get so uptight about what happens at the world's boundaries when there are so many more pressing issues to deal with 16:14 hmmmm what the hell is it with the boundary that fascinates players so much 16:15 VanessaE hmmmm: polish. 16:15 hmmmm if you want to bitch about it that much, you can do it yourself too 16:15 hmmmm yechk 16:15 VanessaE hmmmm: same reason we get upset over the "pressing" issues when people then suddenly go off and start fiddling with stuff no one wants all that much at the moment. 16:15 hmmmm it's NOT my priority and will NOT be ever. 16:16 VanessaE hmmmm: no offense, but that ^^^^ that is why. 16:16 VanessaE particularly the "not be ever" part. 16:16 hmmmm then do it yourself 16:17 * VanessaE sighs 16:17 * VanessaE throws the polish in the trash 16:17 VanessaE this stuff clearly isn't needed here. 16:18 hmmmm i don't get it 16:18 hmmmm you bitch and moan but you'll never do a lick of actual work 16:18 hmmmm that is so annoying 16:18 VanessaE wat 16:18 VanessaE O_o 16:18 hmmmm what's so hard about making a bedrock mod 16:18 Zeno` Hang on, that's not fair or correct at all 16:19 VanessaE you clearly don't play, hmmmm. one already exists. 16:19 VanessaE G*d damn it man. 16:19 VanessaE MODS ARE TOO SLOW FOR THIS. 16:19 hmmmm why can't you just make it, have people use it, and then if it gets really popular and there are demands to move it into the default game, then just do that... 16:19 VanessaE what part of that is so hard to understand? 16:19 hmmmm no, they are not. 16:19 hmmmm mods are just as slow as plantlife. 16:19 VanessaE you haven't tried the latest plantlife either then 16:20 VanessaE 170ms max latency is slow? 16:20 hmmmm this conversation is a giant waste of time 16:20 hmmmm i'm going to go do something productive 16:20 hmmmm less talk, more code 16:21 Zeno` Has minetest reached version 1.0 yet? 16:21 VanessaE ok, let's take a look at something here: https://github.com/VanessaE 16:21 VanessaE you see that little chart there at the bottom below the repositories list? 16:21 VanessaE don't you DARE sit there and tell me I've been doing nothing. 16:21 VanessaE that just pisses me off. 16:21 Zeno` If not then the people writing the mods, running the servers and the players are your beta testers. You should, really, pay attention. 16:24 Krock Zeno`, it reached version (0410 / 1000) 16:25 hmmmm VanessaE: I mean for the core game 16:25 Zeno` In that case then everybody is a beta tester and their suggestions and observations should not be so easily ignored 16:25 hmmmm VanessaE: If you think bedrock is needed in the base game, why the hell not add it 16:25 hmmmm I've offered you commit privs multiple times and you refused every time 16:26 hmmmm so if something pisses you off, and you have a general consensus of approval, you can just fix it yourself rather than BITCH nonstop in the channel 16:26 VanessaE hmmmm: I bitch because it's all I can do to try to get shit to happen around here. I don't understand enough C++, let alone enough of the engine's codebase, to do much more than read through the pulls from time to time trying to learn it. And that's after learning C in college and programming in at least a couple of C-like languages since then. 16:26 VanessaE and because I don't understand and can't seem to wrap my head around it, that's why I refuse commit privs. 16:27 hmmmm you've been involved with minetest longer than i have. "lack of familiarity" is a horrible excuse... it's because you don't even try to learn C++ or the engine 16:27 VanessaE I DO try. 16:27 VanessaE and I fail every damn time I try to read the code. 16:27 hmmmm if you have a question about the code, why not ask here? 16:27 VanessaE so like you, I go off and do more productive things. 16:27 Calinou MODS ARE TOO SLOW FOR THIS. 16:27 Calinou my bedrock mod uses C++ ore gen 16:27 Calinou should be very fast 16:28 Calinou has deepstone too, good balance. 16:28 Calinou and doesn't generate too shallow 16:28 Zeno` Seriously, hang on. Stop with the ad hominem stuff :( It makes me cry 16:28 hmmmm Calinou, what ore type do you use 16:28 Calinou https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9231 16:28 Calinou look 16:28 Calinou I think it's scatter 16:28 Calinou but I would like to have a method to generate flat surfaces too 16:28 Calinou this one replaces stone by bedrock in a large area, which is enough for nearly 100 % of cases, you won't ever load the bottom of the world 16:29 Calinou loading the bottom of the world has bad consequences with mob mods and such, so it should be avoided 16:29 Calinou (mobs will duplicate if they fall in void) 16:29 hmmmm well 16:29 hmmmm you can do that 16:29 hmmmm check out ore sheet type 16:29 hmmmm make the scale of the perlin noise like 1 or something, and then make the offset like 2 16:30 hmmmm if you want it to be 100% straight and flat, make the perlin noise scale 0 16:30 Zeno` it's simplex noise 16:30 Calinou here I don't want it to be straight and flat, would be ugly 16:30 Calinou I replace stone with bedrock, not all blocks 16:30 Calinou (but an ore type that could replace all blocks at once would be useful!) 16:31 hmmmm hmmm 16:31 hmmmm ugh 16:31 hmmmm while i'm mucking around with the ore, why not 16:32 hmmmm i just never had demand for ore that replaces any nodes 16:32 hmmmm why do you let the caves cut through your bedrock? 16:32 hmmmm set is_ground_content = false 16:33 Calinou my ore gen only replaces stone 16:33 Calinou it's intended, I don't want fully flat bedrock – boring, ugly, unnatural 16:33 Calinou so caves go through bedrock, gravel and dirt generates in them occasionally, but all caves eventually end 16:33 Calinou no cave is more than ~200 blocks deep 16:33 Calinou so you don't ever reach bottom of world 16:33 * Calinou knows most people will have trouble understanding :( 16:34 hmmmm no, caves can definitely hit the bottom 16:34 hmmmm -31000 is the generation cutoff, and 80 is the chunk size 16:34 hmmmm so if you have whatever - 80 <= -31000, it'll cut off generating that chunk 16:36 hmmmm if i recall, the central chunk at the origin is offset in the negative axis by 2 mapblocks 16:36 hmmmm so that means it's -[(387 - 1) * 80 + 32] 16:36 hmmmm = -30912 when the apparent map should cut off 16:37 Calinou no, caves can definitely hit the bottom 16:38 Calinou install bedrock mod, try to find cave which goes from above-bedrock to void 16:38 Calinou probably will take hours, by doing it intentionally 16:38 hmmmm just because it's uncommon doesn't mean it won't happen. 16:38 Calinou yeah, I know, “IPv4 is probably enough” :P 16:39 hmmmm in any case, I'll agree that the boundary of the world must be better defined 16:39 Calinou we could extend world size by increasing mapgen limit 16:39 hmmmm 2^15 - 31000 = 32768 - 31000 = 1768 of buffer zone 16:39 Calinou it crashes if you go too close to 32768, but you can still add some blocks? 16:40 Calinou like, ~31500 16:40 hmmmm things wouldn't crash 16:40 hmmmm but they'd definitely screw up 16:41 hmmmm like it'd insert a duplicate (x, z) for a completely different MapSector 16:41 hmmmm and again, that's only if we remove the safety checks that are already there 16:42 hmmmm what I'm proposing is that 31000 and -31000 are the actual boundaries, i.e. that's where map stops generating 16:42 hmmmm or maybe i guess we could bump it to +-32000 16:43 hmmmm so if you have a chunk starting at 31980, for example (i know it's not a valid chunk start coordinate), it'll generate map for 31980 to 32059 16:43 hmmmm and then on blit back, it'll cut off anything after 32000 16:43 hmmmm so in effect only 20 nodes will be written 16:44 hmmmm that's 16 in the first mapblock of the chunk, and 4 in the next mapblock, followed by the rest as content ignore 17:20 Krock Who of the devs can give me thumbs up for #1715 ? 17:52 ShadowNinja VanessaE: My bedrock mod's very fast and short-circuits if it isn't generating a chunk with bedrock. Bedrock definitely doesn't need any extra core support. It's generation is very simple so almost all of the time will be spent reading and writing the data. 17:56 jin_xi so i have updated particles pull, if you tried it before its working better now