Time Nick Message 01:09 celeron55 iqualfragile_: minetest operates like a retarded brick in that sense, but it does it on the server side which is usually not noticeable :-D 01:09 iqualfragile_ important point is: it operates. 01:14 VanessaE hah, quote of the day, right there. 03:52 VanessaE [03-27 23:52] so when I capture the hash I can gain access? 03:53 VanessaE re: sniffing a user's password as he/she logs into a server 03:54 VanessaE maybe this is a good time to think about doing some basic ssl or some other encryption of the login part of the protocol 03:54 VanessaE I know sapier would love the idea, anyway :) 04:01 VanessaE [03-28 00:01] Well, I managed to log into a password-protected server using a captured hash. 04:02 VanessaE [03-28 00:02] xxxxx: It's a local server (my survival world, to be exact). 04:02 VanessaE [03-28 00:02] I used Wireshark to capture the hash (would work for any computer on the same LAN (basically, in the same house)). 04:03 VanessaE I think that's enough. 04:13 us`0gb Hmm. Assuming a compromised node somewhere along the route ... It wouldn't be limited to LANs. 04:17 cheapie Hi, est31! 04:17 cheapie This is where the devs usually are (but they all vanished, for whatever reason). 04:18 cheapie ...sapier? PilzAdam? celeron55? Anybody home? 07:54 celeron55 VanessaE: that's well known; minetest doesn't even try to be secure; it just hides the password from plain sight 07:54 VanessaE just posting that as a reminder 07:54 VanessaE seems that folks are beginning to actually consider doing that sorta stuff now is all 08:08 celeron55 well, i guess that if someone comes up with a good way to do it, it might be done 08:29 est31_ Hi for login you could do SCRAM-SHA1 08:30 est31_ and on password reset the client should set the first half of the salt for the stored_key and the server the second half. 08:31 VanessaE better to bring that specific idea up next time sapier is around. 08:31 est31_ then you even can store the login safely, as it don't expose the password 08:32 est31_ when will sapier be online? 08:32 VanessaE I'd expect sometime in the next 6 hours, roughly. 09:26 celeron55 est31: any suggestions for lightweight and portable and permissibly licensed (LGPLv2 minimum) libraries? 09:27 est31 2+3 easy 09:27 est31 1pls wait 09:39 est31 GNU SASL library. 09:40 est31 no experience with it 09:40 est31 but has 1+2+3 09:40 VanessaE celeron55: hah, SASL.... *gets bag of pork rinds* 09:41 est31 why that? 09:45 VanessaE because as I recall, c55 had a rather sour experience with SASL vs some IRC server(s) about a year or so ago :) 09:47 est31 :) 09:48 est31 ok don't need to be all sasl algs just SCRAM-SHA1-PLUS 09:54 celeron55 SASL isn't wrong; but it's wrong that freenode banned my ISP and required me to use SASL 09:55 celeron55 that has nothing to do with the technology itself 09:55 est31 ok 09:56 VanessaE gah, way to ruin a joke :P 11:52 Exio4 shouldn't be there a "dev" branch with all the work (the network protocol, and so on)? 11:54 PilzAdam Exio4, yes, its called "master" 11:56 celeron55 master is the unstable branch, stable is the stable branch; simple 11:57 celeron55 then if some very incompatible stuff is developed, a feature branch or a minor version branch can be used 11:57 celeron55 (or major) 11:58 celeron55 (but the major version has always been 0) 13:32 lanxu mitä itse käytät? 13:32 lanxu whoops. sorry :) 18:07 est31 sapier can you read the logs here 18:09 PenguinDad I wonder why minetest doesn't do a "VACUUM" statement before closing the SQLite DB? 18:10 sapier done 18:10 sapier what's in there? 18:11 est31 i suggested how to improve the login to a MT server 18:11 est31 vanessaE said i should probably speak you 18:12 est31 the hash you use is static and can be subject to replay attacks 18:12 sapier yes as celeron55 said a well known issue ... if you have suggestions how to improve it you're welcome 18:13 est31 You may want SCRAM-SHA1 for login. It's most state of the art. 18:14 sapier do you know a free available implementation of it? 18:14 CiaranG It would still reveal the password when you did a 'change password'. 18:14 est31 GNU SASL library 18:15 est31 it depends 18:15 est31 SCRAM only specifies the login not the change password 18:15 sapier is GNU SASL available on windows too? 18:15 est31 its c89 no posix dependency 18:16 est31 ciaran you could make the client send the stored_key at 'change password' 18:16 celeron55 i glanced at it and it seemed fairly good 18:16 celeron55 so maybe someone could take an attempt at it 18:16 est31 the client only has to make sure that the salt is not used by some other server too 18:16 sapier as we're about to do major changes anyway we could do this too 18:17 est31 ... that can be achieved by the client randomly choosing a part of the salt 18:18 est31 (because if it is used by some other server that one can impersonate to the other) 18:18 sapier I didn't read the specs by now but whatever we do a password musn't be client specific ;-) 18:19 est31 how do you mean that? 18:19 sapier no data stored on client may be involved 18:20 sapier next question protect login only or do full encrypted communication? 18:21 celeron55 sasl doesn't care about encryption (except that it kind of recommends it on top) 18:21 sapier I'm for protecting password in first step only 18:21 celeron55 as far as i understand 18:21 est31 sasl doesnt care. 18:22 est31 but: scram-*-plus has channel binding 18:22 est31 that can be used to authenticate a servers certificate without CA. 18:23 est31 so that it is easy to set up encryption for people running servers 18:24 celeron55 do you happen to know a good library for encryption then? i guess gnutls is one 18:24 est31 sry idk 18:24 sapier I'm not thinking about servers and pc clients right now but about android clients 18:25 sapier without hardware encryption support I don't think android clients will be able to handle the additional encryption load 18:25 est31 how much traffic 18:25 celeron55 but encryption isn't needed for now 18:25 celeron55 also, the traffic is very small and android uses HTTPS connections all the time just fine 18:26 celeron55 it can't be a problem even if it's done some day 18:27 celeron55 the only request for encryption that i have seen has been by a chinese guy for the chat 18:27 CiaranG Important stuff. The last thing you'd want is a malicious network sniffer seeing that you'd dug the node at 132,56,216 18:27 sapier you greatly underestimate traffic and performance impact of encryption ... it doesn't matter if a webpage everyone expects to be shown after 20 seconds takes 21 seconds but if our packets take 100 instead of 10 ms we've got a problem 18:27 CiaranG Just encrypting chat might make sense 18:28 sapier all or nothing ciaranG 18:28 celeron55 well, in certain countries it certainly makes sense 18:28 proller minetest - game with <1000 active users, GAME, not bank 18:28 CiaranG sapier: all or nothing because? 18:29 sapier because it's crap to add encryption in 50 locations instead of 1 18:29 sapier if we do encryption it should be done at lower protocol level 18:29 VanessaE how difficult is it to detect what hardware support there is on a platform and, if suitable support is found, to use it (and if not, stick with the plain protocol)? 18:30 celeron55 well, encryption would just require adding a new packet in the protocol that encrypts the stuff it encrypts 18:30 CiaranG Seems more crap to encrypt 50 things that don't need encrypting instead of 1 18:30 proller all issues except chat security already fixed ? 18:30 celeron55 and then it's really quite trivial to just do that for chat packets 18:30 celeron55 but i agree with proller that it's unnecessary 18:30 sapier no it's not do you wanna authenticate any single packet? 18:31 CiaranG You would simply encrypt the payload of chat message packets 18:31 celeron55 no? 18:31 celeron55 it's certainly possible to only require authenticatiton for chat packets 18:31 sapier either you create a encrypted communication then you can send all data through it or not then encryption is somehow useless 18:31 celeron55 -t 18:32 sapier do you wanna ask user for his password on each chat message? ;-) 18:32 CiaranG !? 18:32 sapier encryption without authentication is useless as you're prone to man in middle attacks 18:33 celeron55 what the fuck now 18:33 celeron55 you can think of the chat as a separate encrypted connection if you want 18:33 sapier if we wanna do encryption we need to create a session on login and keep it alive for as long a s a user is logged in 18:33 * proller faceplam 18:33 celeron55 sapier: yes, so? 18:34 celeron55 how does doing it only for the chat make it impossible? in no way whatsoever 18:34 CiaranG You just need the client and server to negotiate a key on login, and use that for the rest of the session 18:34 celeron55 let's stop this useless discussion anyway 18:34 sapier so chat is encrypted but stealing inventory is not a issue? 18:34 proller dont forget check client signed certificates for chatting in game 18:34 celeron55 yes, that was the idea 18:34 celeron55 you can't really end up in jail for moving items in minetest 18:35 celeron55 but you can by chatting about politics 18:35 VanessaE proller: you jest, but as I understand a number of other games use exactly that method for logging in. signed certs. 18:35 sapier well of course this can be done but I thought we're a game not a chat client for noth korea 18:35 proller VanessaE, this games use real money? 18:35 VanessaE proller: not all. 18:36 sapier Imho protecting the users password is best we can do right now encryption ... nice to have but for chat only isn't sane to me 18:37 VanessaE hell I use a signed cert to authenticate to IRC/services, but both c55's and sapier's points stand. 18:39 sapier crypto is always about making it more expensive to break data but it's useless to upgrade a stable wooden front door to a reinforced steel door if backdor is paper 18:40 celeron55 there's no backdoor to listening to minetest chat if the client and server refuse to transfer unencrypted unauthenticated chat messages 18:41 celeron55 well except if those endpoints run other software or addons that have weaknesses, but that always applies 18:43 celeron55 it can cause some weird situations for the user if someone does a man-in-the-middle attack for the unencrypted data and the chat stays encrypted and going to the right place though 18:43 celeron55 "i can't read the chat, write it on this sign" lol 18:43 CiaranG I know. Remove the chat packets and encode the messages as movements of different sized stacks of cobblestone in and out of the inventory. 41 cobblestone=A, 42 cobblestone=B, etc. 18:44 CiaranG desert stone for lower case. 18:44 sapier I'm sorry but I don't understand why chat is more important then our game data 18:46 celeron55 i'm all in for encrypting everything if encryption is used though 18:47 sapier me too but I fear we can burry android client prior even finishing it if we do so 18:48 celeron55 lol, this encryption is not going to happen in a long time 18:48 VanessaE sapier, honestly I think the renderer is gonna be FAR worse for the android client's CPU than the encryption would be 18:48 celeron55 that's why i said a few screenfulls of text back that this shouldn't be discussed further 18:48 sapier btw sasl seems to be a replacement for our current low level protocol if we choose to use it 18:51 sapier what do you think about a more simple way to prevent replay attacks, server sends random salt to client, client hashes it's hash with salt and sends back to server .... or did I miss something? 18:56 celeron55 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5802#section-5 18:56 celeron55 SCRAM-SHA1 is quite like that 18:56 celeron55 somewhat more complicated for whatever reason 18:56 kahrl a MITM could obtain a one-time access code at least 18:56 kahrl (but since the protocol isn't encrypted anyway, it doesn't matter that much) 18:57 sapier yes this way doesn't prevent mitm attacks 18:57 sapier it's only safe against replay 19:02 sapier I guess I can add the simple variant I suggested within a couple of hours, but as it's just a first thought this might be completely useless if I missed some way to break it 19:03 kahrl well the first rule of crypto is don't roll your own 19:04 kahrl although in this case, any crypto would be strictly an improvement 19:07 kahrl another practical question, regardless of the new auth mechanism: how do you intend to send the initial password hash if the user is connecting to a server for the first time? 19:11 est31 sapier kahrls comment is right: no experimenting 19:12 est31 for example, SCRAM also does PBKDF2 several (as in 4096) times 19:12 est31 hash functions were invented to be fast not to be slow. bad you need the opposite for passwords 19:15 est31 kahrl that password hash (storedKey) needs to be sent in plain text (or via encryption channel). 19:18 est31 important thing is that the server does never get the pw itself, and the salt is not equal to the one from another server 19:18 celeron55 it can be a simple hash to begin with so that it never goes in completely plain text 19:18 est31 heard of rainbow tables? 19:19 kahrl est31: a problem would be that any server could claim that the player is new and needs to send the storedKey, and be able to launch replay attacks afterwards 19:19 kahrl but this is MITM territory again 19:19 sapier it's either experiment or not do it anytime soon 19:19 celeron55 that's what they can do always anyway unless you authenticate them, and even then if you inadvertedly trust them 19:20 celeron55 :P 19:20 kahrl oh, I missed the thing about the salt 19:20 sapier if we wanna have a secure solution we need to use certificates and tls 19:21 sapier everything else is (more or less) unsafe 19:22 celeron55 does there exist tls over udp for unreliable data? 8) 19:22 sapier nope 19:22 kahrl one time pad is safe too :D 19:23 sapier kahrl I take this as volonteering to manually distribute millions of pads to each user ? 19:23 sapier ;-) 19:23 kahrl sure, we could sell OTP key books 19:23 kahrl every client-server pair needs one! 19:24 sapier :-) lets get serious again, what we can do quite quick is some custom thing. this isn't secure in more precise way but it'll make spoofing harder 19:24 est31 ... i think tls over udp can be reached with DTLS ... 19:24 celeron55 oh so it exists 19:25 celeron55 that's cool 8) 19:25 celeron55 it's even implemented by gnutls and others 19:25 cheapie This reminds me of something: ... i think tls over udp can be reached with DTLS ... 19:25 cheapie Why does MT even use UDP in the first place? 19:25 est31 what? 19:26 cheapie Did the authors of TCP kill celeron55's dad or something? 19:26 celeron55 it actually uses UDP because i wanted to try making a protocol based on UDP, and then you guys voluntarily started to use the end result 19:26 sapier because you don't need to retransmit a clients position of 10 seconds ago if you already sent the new one 19:26 celeron55 but it allows sending positions with not causing extra lag in packet loss 19:27 sapier same for entties and other moving things 19:27 cheapie OK, so what about things like inventory moves? 19:27 sapier we've got a reliability support uppon udp 19:28 sapier yes all of it already exists in other protocols 19:28 sapier no need to discuss this again ... we're already trying to find another protocol but by now everyone s quick in suggesting new ones but once evaluation starts same ppl beeing most loud ones demanding a change suddenly are very quiet 19:30 sapier obviously just now another requirement to our new protocol was added ... authentication and encryption support 19:32 sapier yet ... can someone please test the android port? I'd prefere to complete one task prior starting a new (huge) one 19:34 proller whats is new ? 19:34 tomasbrod If you dont mind me being noob, sapier, I would test it. 19:35 sapier noobs are welcome as they're not blind to the obvious things like developers usually are 19:35 sapier http://animalsmod.comuf.com/downloads/Minetest-debug.apk this is to test 19:36 tomasbrod Ok, see you later. 20:39 spillz sapier: apk issues on galaxy note 2 (some of these will be familiar)... 1. very difficult to place blocks/items (threshold issue again?) 2. missing inventory textures for many blocks 20:39 sapier did you try to change the threshold in settings? 20:40 spillz digging works fine, only placement. is there a separate threshold for each? 20:41 sapier no it's just doubleclick for placing 20:41 sapier doubletab 20:41 sapier wait ... 20:41 spillz 3. Top row icons screen placement is not aligned with touch (have to touch below where they appear) 20:41 sapier maybe the doubletab detection still uses a hardcoded value 20:42 sapier ok how do you make them appear? 20:44 sapier doubletabdetection is missing the threshold, I'm adding it 20:44 spillz What appear? 20:44 celeron55 why are the items at the bottom so hard to tap 20:44 sapier the top row icons? 20:44 celeron55 i've tried multiple times and usually nothing happens 20:44 celeron55 more often it places a block or does something else 20:45 sapier I don't know 20:45 celeron55 oh wait what 20:45 celeron55 it picks the top ones when touching the bottom ones 20:45 celeron55 and the bottom ones cannot be selected 20:45 spillz They appear but to activate them i have to click the bottom row items. I can't activate bottom row at all because presumably the touch area is off the screen 20:46 spillz sapier: I didn't realize that it was double click to place. now that works but is super laggy 20:46 sapier ok please describe as precise as possible as on my tablet it's just single row 20:46 celeron55 it's on two rows 20:46 sapier yes lag is a big issue I don't know how to fix it by now 20:46 celeron55 four on the top, four on the bottotm 20:46 celeron55 like an inventory grid 20:47 celeron55 -t 20:47 spillz Same as celeron55.... I have two rows of 4 inventory items 20:47 sapier yes I added this dependent on screen dpi 20:47 celeron55 well what's unclear then? 20:47 sapier but I could only test it on pc client with window size and there it works :-( 20:47 celeron55 tapping the bottom ones selects the one at the top row 20:47 celeron55 tapping the top ones does not modify selection 20:48 sapier ok I'm gonna try to find out why this happens :-) 20:48 celeron55 is the walking movement going to be improved sometime? 20:48 celeron55 currently you have to raise your finger from the screen to press another button 20:48 celeron55 it should work so that you can slide the finger onto another buttotn 20:48 celeron55 -t (fucking t) 20:49 celeron55 (how is that t even possible, this keyboard must be broken) 20:49 sapier for movement buttons this should work (as long as you stay at buttons) 20:49 sapier need to fix the bug when leaving the movement button area 20:49 celeron55 oh, apparently it does 20:49 celeron55 but usually i want to move from right to backwards 20:50 celeron55 and then it doesn't 20:50 celeron55 or, well... occasionally does, occasionally doesn't 20:50 sapier yes found out some minutes ago too ... in this case you temporary slide above a not button 20:51 celeron55 and then! the inventory cubes are completely broken 20:51 celeron55 i think spillz mentioned that too 20:51 sapier ok :-) some work to do 20:51 celeron55 i guess they could be simply disabled, MT can just use the top face with... umm.. is there a setting for that? 20:51 spillz 4. I still have that awful startup lag (this phone is snappy for everything else) and maybe that explains the block placement lag (bad write speed = SQL performance) 20:52 sapier sorry spillz but it's already leveldb on android 20:53 spillz sapier: either way it's storage access speed affecting with db access? 20:53 sapier possible 20:53 celeron55 apparently there isn't a setting for that 20:55 spillz btw, double click to place/use kinda sucks usability wise... twice the arthritis... 20:55 sapier better ideas? 20:55 spillz none that will make your life easier 20:56 sapier if they are better that's not a problem ;-P 20:57 celeron55 i'd ask for a turn sensitivity slider 20:57 celeron55 or whatever way to configure it 20:57 celeron55 it's way too fast for this 4.5" screen 20:57 sapier it's configured with mouse sensitivity 20:58 spillz You really should try out some of the competition... bottom line finger!=mouse. should be able to touch anywhere on screen to use/place active item 20:58 sapier what about adding a dropdown similar to threshold 20:58 celeron55 oh, random stuff: you can't quit the "change keys" menu 20:58 celeron55 and if you press back there, minetest quits completely 20:58 celeron55 do you even test anything yourself 8) 20:58 sapier oops 20:59 sapier yes but not any single feature ;-) 20:59 sapier and I didn't even ever use key change menu on pc ;-) 21:00 celeron55 oh wtf, double tapping a main menu tab will make minetest quit 21:00 celeron55 how is this possible 21:00 sapier double tab (outside of menu) to close a formspec 21:00 celeron55 oh that explains 21:00 spillz Would be nice to have gui controls for draw distance (and tie chunk loading distance to that too) 21:01 sapier wait it's getting a little bit much :-) can we add it to the issues gist post 21:02 sapier https://gist.github.com/sapier/9745980 21:02 spillz personally would rather play at 25 fps with decent draw distance than the <30 nodes at 40 to 50 fps the game defaults to now 21:02 celeron55 the movement really should be a joystick-style thing where you can switch directly from left to right and forward to backward 21:02 celeron55 currently when you switch from right to left, you move forward in the middle which is just crap 21:03 VanessaE sapier: toldya. :P 21:03 celeron55 and you should be able to rest your finger there without the player moving 21:03 celeron55 then you might be able to keep the device in your hand a bit more comfortably 21:03 celeron55 oh well, not sure of course 21:04 spillz sounds like celeron55 wants survival craft's default controls 21:04 celeron55 this might be the worst ide aever 21:04 celeron55 idea ever* 21:04 celeron55 spillz: well, they work; what can i say 21:04 sapier well now with double line hotbar the joystick may work but for lots of screens it's a huge waste of screen 21:04 celeron55 does someone *like* the current movement buttons? 21:05 sapier well at least I prefere them to the previous cross wich did use 1/3 of my screen 21:06 sapier it's hard to design controls usable at different screensizes, if you make em to small they're unusable at high dpi+ small screens 21:07 sapier hmm well ... as I now have dpi support this may be solvable 21:07 ShadowNinja The current buttons are O.K. But I'd prefer a joystick-like thing too. 21:07 celeron55 i'm pretty sure placing should just happen with single tap 21:07 sapier but I need ppl with different screens to test as I don't have different devices 21:07 sapier how do you wanna dig celeron? 21:07 sapier and view? 21:08 ShadowNinja Ditto on what celeron55 said. Hold to dig/look. 21:08 sapier hmm ok dig place decision could be time of pressing down 21:09 sapier but you're gonna place a node anytime you accidently touch the screen 21:09 spillz hold to dig, slide around anywhere to view. The move buttons don't bother me all that much. torn whether jump should be on left or right thumb 21:09 spillz Press once to placr 21:09 spillz hold to use items like carts 21:09 spillz tap mob to attack 21:10 spillz Press once to placr.. meant tap once to place 21:10 spillz Doesn't happen that often in my experience 21:10 spillz and I am pretty clumsy 21:10 sapier I already understood this but I'm not sure if this will not cause a lot of accidentally placed nodes 21:10 VanessaE why can't there be a button to explicitly place the wielded object and another to dig, any other touch on the screen is move/look/use? 21:10 celeron55 what if placing worked so that it places if you hold the right thumb on the screen and tap with the left? 21:11 celeron55 of course double tapping could be enabled at the same time for single-finger operation 21:11 sapier some sort of modifyer key 21:11 ShadowNinja celeron55: That's even more clumsy and confusing than double-tapping. 21:11 VanessaE why overload the screen gestures? use a button damn it! 21:12 VanessaE stop overcomplicating it 21:12 sapier buttons are ugly 21:12 VanessaE so? 21:12 VanessaE the whole GAME is ugly if you get right down to it :P 21:12 VanessaE since when did that stop the gameplay from being good? 21:12 VanessaE usability trumps appearance. 21:12 sapier the button can't be where you place the nodes so you always have to move away from where you're building 21:12 ShadowNinja VanessaE: A button means that you need to use the cursor thing at the center. And it's hard to use. 21:13 celeron55 well actually, i would like to place nodes to where the cursor is 21:13 celeron55 it's hard to place nodes when your thumb is larger than the position where you want it on the screen 21:13 sapier you can already do this celeron 21:13 celeron55 and you need to tap over the position 21:13 VanessaE placing/digging where the cursor is makes more sense to me but on a tablet that IS kinda hard to do 21:13 celeron55 but of course people would usually use this on tablets and not 4.5" phones so that doesn't apply there 21:13 sapier hope it works (touch targeting) 21:14 ShadowNinja I'd like to be able to place and dig anywhere on screen, turning to point at something is a lot harder than just looking in that general direction. 21:14 spillz I think minecraft pe gives the player an option. split controls that use conventional mouse cursor and buttons, and touch controls that let the user touch on screen where to place 21:14 sapier me too it's quite handy to place a line of nodes just by moving on screen 21:14 VanessaE spillz: +100000 21:15 sapier guys I already have that setting ... could you please try it ;-P 21:16 sapier "Touch free target" ... reenables crosshair and makes it behave same way as on pc ;-P 21:17 sapier ok not "Touch free target" enables the crosshair ... does anyone have an idea for a better name of that setting? 21:17 VanessaE sapier: "Aim to Place" or "Aim-and-place" 21:18 sapier i wouldn't understand that way of calling it too 21:18 VanessaE well you use a crosshairs in a shooting weapon to aid in aiming that weapon. 21:18 VanessaE but in this case you are doing it to aid in placing a block. 21:19 sapier What about just "Enable crosshair" ? 21:19 VanessaE naw 21:19 VanessaE "What's a crosshair"? 21:19 VanessaE etc. 21:19 VanessaE remember, you're dealing with noobs who barely know how to turn their tablets on :P 21:20 sapier we've got only 2-3 words so we can't write the whole story from the begining some billion years ago there ;-P 21:23 VanessaE my point is, 21:24 VanessaE describe WHAT it does 21:24 VanessaE not what it IS. :) 21:24 sapier well it disables the crosshair ;-P 21:24 VanessaE smartass :P 21:25 VanessaE think of it this way... 21:25 VanessaE you know those cheapo cameras you can buy for like $USD 20 or so? 21:25 sapier no 21:25 VanessaE you just aim then and click the shutter and that's it? 21:26 VanessaE you know, those disposable ones you buy at the petrol station before you go on a long trip? 21:26 sapier actually I don't care how that thing is called as long as there are at least 2 people who think the new name is good ;-) 21:26 VanessaE they're among the class of devices we call "Point and Shoot". 21:28 VanessaE at the risk of two bad puns in a row, my point is that you need to aim for terms that the average idiot is going to understand, because people don't like to experiment. 21:29 VanessaE people think they'll break stuff when they do. 21:29 VanessaE hell my mom used to think her computer, I shit you not, would get "confused" if you clicked around too fast. and she was far from stupid. 21:30 sapier but "point and shoot" wouldn't be reasonable too 21:30 sapier at least to me 21:30 VanessaE "point and place" would work better :) 21:31 VanessaE but I wasn't suggesting "point and shoot" anyway 21:31 VanessaE just giving you an example of how we use such terms 21:32 sapier what about "Touch to place" as name for the non crosshair mode? 21:32 VanessaE yes 21:32 VanessaE that would be good I think 21:32 ShadowNinja You still touch in crosshair mode. 21:33 VanessaE tap to place? 21:33 sapier same 21:33 ShadowNinja "Point to place" or "Crosshair mode". 21:33 sapier you don't place by pointing at it too ;-P 21:33 sapier you still have to tap 21:33 VanessaE ShadowNinja: that's why I used "and" instead of "to". a conjunction is needed if you want to use "point" here 21:34 VanessaE oh G*d, I sound like my grade school english teacher. :P 21:35 sapier I'm gonna fix the other bugs now hope someone found a commonly accepted naming till I've finished 21:35 celeron55 your teacher would be proud of you! 21:35 VanessaE celeron55: if my teachers saw how I butcher the english language in some other venues, they'd shoot me, in turn. :P 21:45 spillz Instead of a phrase, having a screen for controls with a picture for each control type. Also for the Crosshair controls, maybe you want to have a look around area above below some dig/use/place buttons on the right thumb side 21:45 spillz *How about having... 21:47 sapier good idea but I'd consider this as not crucial for first android version 22:03 ShadowNinja Pushing in a minute: http://ix.io/bjr 22:05 sapier are you sure this is equivalent? 22:07 sapier and why do you rename member variables to that crazy non m_ notation noone can see it's a class member without ide support? 22:08 sapier ShadowNinja: imho this change is way to big for a 1 minute announcement, please create a pull request for review 22:17 sapier ShadowNinja: how did getBlocksOnZ exit before? 22:17 ShadowNinja sapier: Hmmm? This is the mapper, not the engine, so we don't have to be so strict about commits. And I removed hungarian notation because the coding style recommends not using it. And what do you mean by equivalent? The main change is that LevelDB is 20+x faster. 22:17 sapier ahh by break 22:18 celeron55 this is for the new https://github.com/minetest/minetestmapper 22:18 celeron55 sfan5 and ShadowNinja are pretty much free to do what they want with it 22:18 sapier oh :-) ok how am I supposed to see this is mapper only ;-) 22:19 celeron55 by following #minetest and every IRC channel remotely related to minetest, i guess 22:19 celeron55 and forum and github and... 22:19 celeron55 i.e. in no way 22:20 sapier well as it's mapper only a pull request is obviously nonsense ;-) 22:20 ShadowNinja Hmmm, I guess it wasn't obvious. 22:20 ShadowNinja Minetest's database stuff is different, but you wouldn't know unless you've looked. 22:20 sapier no, especially as database code isn't the part of minetest I know very well ;-) 22:21 celeron55 i immediately knew because the filename had "db-" instead of minetest's "database-" :P 22:21 ShadowNinja Last commit gives it away though. 22:21 sapier you've written the db code celeron ;-) 22:21 celeron55 i haven't 22:21 celeron55 i have written none of it 22:21 sapier thought you've been at least involved in sqlite code? 22:21 celeron55 no 22:21 celeron55 it was contributed initially completely 22:22 celeron55 by a friend of the admin of the largest server at the time 22:22 sapier ok ok :-) doesn't change the fact I don't have any idea how db code of minetest looks like ;-) 22:22 sapier that part did work quite well by now 22:23 sapier I don't have any idea why that damn multiline hotbar behaves that crazy 22:27 sapier wait ... 22:43 sapier celeron55 I think I found the double line hotbar issue but I can't test it 22:43 sapier I already uploaded the new version 22:44 Sokomine it might be a good idea to mark "lightwight" minetest servers in the public list somehow. the android client will be more successful connecting to one of these 22:47 sapier there's no way to decide this aitomaticaly 22:49 Sokomine hm. it might be possible to check how large the amount of media data the server offers is. might still be too troublesome. yet...with the normal server list, connecting to a public server will seldom work on the first attempt 22:49 spillz sapier: bottom row now works correctly, top row not at all. 22:49 sapier hmm 22:49 sapier very strange 22:50 sapier so there are two bugs 22:51 sapier argh ... a very silly one 22:56 sapier spillz: uploaded new version 23:02 spillz working. now missing textures 23:02 sapier a new bug? 23:02 spillz Also all of the interactive elements are kind of big 23:03 sapier welll size of elements is quite a matter of personal preference 23:03 sapier and dpi and device 23:03 spillz Not new. I mentioned earlier that many inventory items don't have textures 23:03 sapier yes you did so the old bug ... I believe this is a ogles or irrlicht issue so I can't do very much about it atm 23:04 sapier but any suggestion is welcome 23:05 celeron55 just comment out itemdef.cppp:436-437 23:05 spillz Re size - maybe just because of my phablet. 5.5 inch screen 1280x720 or something. All buttons seem too big. 23:05 celeron55 or make irrlicht not report that it supports render target textures 23:06 celeron55 because they obviously are broken 23:06 sapier could this be device dependent like the npot2 issue? 23:06 celeron55 or add return NULL; to tile.cpp:830 23:07 celeron55 no, it's creating 64^2 textures 23:08 celeron55 or well maybe it is... but survivalcraft and whatever had it disabled too 23:08 celeron55 so they didn't find it working either 23:12 sapier hmm is there something simple to test? 23:13 Sokomine sapier: the 8 inventory slots at the bottom are now too big on my device (rather small phone). also the inventory cubes seem to stand on their head (compared to the normal client) 23:14 iqualfragile_ hmmmm: any new thoughts on mapgen? 23:14 sapier sokomine can you create a screenshot? best case add your screen size (inches) as text 23:15 sapier the size is finetuning the more examples I can see the better I can tune ... it's useless to make it good for one device if this is even worse for another 23:16 VanessaE I keep telling you sapier, you need to provide options to scale the UI 23:16 VanessaE this isn't 1985 anymore, we have the technology :P 23:16 sapier we CANT scale the UI when will people finally realize this 23:16 VanessaE um... 23:17 sapier we can scale some elements but not all 23:17 VanessaE ok, ninja'd 23:17 VanessaE I was about to say that formspecs DO scale with screen size 23:17 Sokomine *nod* perhaps you might offer a setting somewhere 23:17 sapier no they don't 23:17 VanessaE yes, they do 23:17 sapier images do scale but buttons don't completely scale 23:18 VanessaE is this a deficiency in minetest or in irrlicht? 23:18 sapier buttons have minimum size, texts as well as textboxes have fixed size 23:18 Sokomine hm, yes. thumbs don't scale well. a tablet may have the same resolution as a phone. afaik the physical screen size is available somewhere on android as well. at least there are apps who can see it 23:19 sapier btw andoid doesn't do ui scaling too as almost no other os does ... because scalable button and icon graphics are quite costly (svg) 23:19 Sokomine stupid question, but....how do i do a screnshot on android? 23:20 proller render menu to image and scale image ;_ 23:20 sapier no it isn't Sokomine but dpi is (somehow) available it's 0.75 1 2 3 4 ... so it's a rough guess only 23:20 VanessaE proller: cheater. 23:20 VanessaE (that would work, however hacky it is) 23:20 sapier and would look like crap 23:21 VanessaE sapier: not if you did it right. 23:21 sapier no 23:21 VanessaE again, this isn't 1985 anymore. we can scale images very nicely up or down 23:21 sapier you can't scale a 32 px rexture to a 256 button no matter what you do 23:21 VanessaE then scale from a larger size. 23:21 VanessaE but that's hacky 23:21 VanessaE surely there's a better way 23:22 sapier svg is the only way but it's slow 23:22 sapier and I don't know if irrlicht supports svg 23:22 spillz I think the standard way is to provide multiple sizes and pick accordingly 23:22 sapier exactly spillz 23:22 VanessaE sapier: it doesn't appear to support svg, no. 23:23 sapier then we have to find a way to decide what size to use on what screen ... wich is what I need screenshots for 23:23 Sokomine sapier: you solved the issue i had with text input lately very well. that works now convincingly 23:24 sapier what issue? 23:24 Sokomine sapier: only issue is when opening the chat. it would be really great to make that equivalent to f10 and show at least the last chat messages :-) 23:24 sapier hmm you should still see the last messages? the chat overlay should be transparent 23:26 Sokomine no, it isn't. it's completely white, showing me nothing of the game anymore. the one stu used was transparent afaik 23:26 sapier it's transparent for me too ... what android version/device do you have andhow is this displayed for others? 23:29 sapier is there any item that causes the broken textures? 23:30 sapier to me this issue seems to be quite similat to what we've seen on pc client about a year ago 23:30 Sokomine the textures work fine so far. the inventory cubes are inverted (they're seen from below and not from above as with the desktop version) - but that's a very minor issue 23:30 Sokomine hmm 23:31 sapier I see disorted inventory item textures every now and then but I haven't found a schme by now 23:32 sapier hmm I believe xyz had a fix for the inverted inventorycubes but I'm not sure about it