Time  Nick           Message
00:00 iqualfragile   sapier: sounds incredibly cpu killing
00:00 hmmmm          Minecraft's method is to make the terrain based on the biomes, which only works because the whole terrain is interpolated to begin with
00:00 NakedFury      could it be possible to have some terraingen operations done in c++ in some sort of prepackage so when you in lua call them they calculate faster than would be possible in lua?
00:00 celeron55      sapier: that doesn't make sense and is a thousand times more heavy
00:00 hmmmm          I'm explicitly trying to avoid that
00:01 sapier         I know it sounds a lot more heavy ... and in total it will be but on the other hand you can do it incremently
00:01 celeron55      the map is generated at runtime anyway; it's not feasible for it to be more runtimey
00:01 iqualfragile   sapier i do not think that would work out
00:02 sapier         ok it's just been an idea
00:02 hmmmm          so
00:02 hmmmm          I don't want to make the biome system shape the way mapgens work
00:02 hmmmm          I wanted the biome system to be able to be placed on top of any mapgen
00:03 celeron55      (i can agree that would be ideal)
00:03 hmmmm          if we start making some concoction of the noise used to generate the terrain into the actual terrain variance values, and it works, would we really want that system?
00:03 hmmmm          keep in mind that mapgen v7 is not just 2d perlin, but this mishmash of different processes
00:04 hmmmm          also this doesn't help with finding the difference between say, hills and ocean (where absolute ground height matters and not the variance)
00:04 celeron55      the issue is that doing nonlinear algorithms in chunks while a continous output is required is impossible
00:05 hmmmm          i'm trying to find a way to approximate the process instead of doing something impossible
00:05 hmmmm          it's just really hard
00:05 hmmmm          this is why mapgen v7 is taking so long
00:06 hmmmm          the reason why biomes just werk in minecraft is because it's completely bound to one mapgen - the mapgen - and there's 0 flexibility
00:06 hmmmm          i will not tolerate such a crude approach
00:06 celeron55      so either you really only have stuff like gaussian blur at your disposal (even that becomes a pain when some but not all of the surrounding terrain is generated) or you do whatever you want and tweak it until it tends to blend together
00:07 hmmmm          celeron, I'm thinking to combat that it might be a good idea to just overgenerate the raw terrain (in the x, z directions, not all 3)
00:07 celeron55      personally i will hugely prefer a thing like you are discussing; i just know it's not trivial at all
00:07 hmmmm          that has its own set of problems too
00:08 iqualfragile   celeron55: like split terrain and surface generation?
00:10 celeron55      also, it has to be able to work in some reasonable way with eg. overhangs and flying islands
00:10 iqualfragile   overhanging cliffs would be a challenge
00:10 iqualfragile   flying islands could be generated later on
00:11 celeron55      sounds to me like multiple passes of some kind of preprocessing or something maybe
00:11 iqualfragile   yep
00:12 celeron55      or whatever, it's actually dumb to guess now because it depends on how it will actually even work for basic cases
00:14 iqualfragile   well, there would definitly be at least two steps, terrain and biomes
00:14 celeron55      ...eh what, we are discussing solely about the biome part by now
00:15 iqualfragile   in that case i missunderstood something
00:16 celeron55      hmmmm: there are also weird options like using a GPU to do computation; it allows doing certain things that are totally infeasible on CPU
00:17 celeron55      like applying a complex filter on a bitmap
00:17 hmmmm          all for something as mundane as choosing biomes
00:17 hmmmm          this keeps getting better and better
00:17 celeron55      well it probably isn't something we want to do
00:18 hmmmm          i think a lot of people in the minetest community don't appreciate that this is a difficult problem
00:18 celeron55      but if someone wants to try things for science, then that's an option
00:19 celeron55      a lot of people don't appreciate anything; that's not anything new 8)
00:19 iqualfragile   celeron55: problem would be that gpu acceleration is not avivable in every case
00:19 celeron55      iqualfragile: that is the obvious reason why < celeron55> well it probably isn't something we want to do
00:20 iqualfragile   jup
00:21 celeron55      let's implement minetest's mapgen on an FPGA PCIe card
00:21 celeron55      practically nobody could use it but we'd get in the news!
00:23 celeron55      hmmmm: anyway, so, do you happen to have time for actually doing it or is this again just one of the regular "this would be cool except nobody will ever want to spend the time to make it"? 8)
00:24 celeron55      i'm assuming the latter
00:29 hmmmm          well I have wanted to get the biome thing done for quite a long time
00:29 hmmmm          if I can come up with something that actually works well, then yeah..
00:29 hmmmm          it'd be very motivational
00:30 celeron55      we might be in a lack of a usable system for testing such things
00:30 celeron55      firing up regular minetest for it is kind of clunky
00:30 hmmmm          i made a small GTK+ application for testing mapgen related crap fast
00:31 celeron55      is it public? i guess more people could have use for it
00:31 hmmmm          it's not because it's just a testing framework
00:31 hmmmm          very rough around the edges
00:52 paramat        i would like to suggest the future minetest underworld realm be named after a Finnish mythological underworld, im fed up with the n***** word
00:55 paramat        also, spring equinox is soon, 0.4.9 is 3 months old and was broken (im using 0.4.8) perhaps time for 0.4.10?
00:56 hmmmm          soon(tm)
01:24 ShadowNinja    The current version of Minetest seems fairly stable.  But I'd suggest that next time we decide to make a release we wait at least 12 hours after announcing it before releasing.
01:29 iqualfragile   :D
01:31 sapier1        can someone explain to me why we use https for modstore list but send password hash unencrypted?
01:32 iqualfragile   sapier1: well, the certificate for the modstore is signed  by some ca
01:33 sapier1        doesn't help without ssl support in android curl version (yet)
02:05 ShadowNinja    SSL support has been discussed before.  sfan5: Do you think that you have the ability to properly implement it?  It would have to be negotiated by a pre-init message.
06:43 sfan5          ShadowNinja: you mean TLS, right?
06:46 ShadowNinja    sfan5: Yes, TLSv1.2 AES 256 with ECDHE and SHA-512.
06:47 sfan5          to make stuff secure I would go for a solid default config
06:53 sfan5          which TLS library shall we use?
06:54 sfan5          GnuTLS, OpenSSL?
06:54 sfan5          s/,/?/
06:57 ShadowNinja    sfan5: GNUTLS would be better, OpenSSL has licemsing issues IIRC.
06:58 sfan5          and gnutls seems to support a ton more while being smaller than openssl
06:58 sfan5          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TLS_implementations#Code_size_and_dependencies
07:02 sfan5          We won't be doing anything with signed certificates, right?
07:03 sfan5          (I mean having a CA sign them)
07:10 sfan5          will we use TLS over connection.cpp's system of packets or will we use DTLS
07:10 sfan5          ?
09:31 smoke_fumus    ok guys i really suck at trigonometry and i need a little help down here. i have a view (2d screen) and a 3d space around it. i need to find a position on screen at which object i am looking at located and get screen coordinate out of it; object appears on screen and i need to check if it is in field of view and then retrieve screen coordinate
09:43 celeron55      use ISceneCollisionManager
09:43 celeron55      http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/classirr_1_1scene_1_1_i_scene_collision_manager.html#a6032377ff769e42c3e28547794f015ea
09:44 celeron55      no need to know trigonometry 8)
09:44 celeron55      of course if this isn't in minetest then you may or may not have a similar one available
09:45 celeron55      in that case this is what it does http://paste.ubuntu.com/7100846/
09:49 celeron55      (which is, it just multiplies the position with the view and projection matrix)
11:02 realbadangel_  smoke_fumus, such thing is already done in hud code
11:02 smoke_fumus    realbadangel_: nonono, not for minetest
11:02 smoke_fumus    aside from minetest
11:03 realbadangel_  you can still read the code
16:01 rdococ         Hello dear developers.
16:02 ShadowNinja    Hello rdococ.  What is your query?
16:02 rdococ         I can not for the life of me find the mod API's name for wheat seeds.
16:03 ShadowNinja    rdococ: This is more suited for #minetest, but check the farming mod code or the wiki.
16:03 ShadowNinja    (probably farming:wheat_seeds)
16:03 rdococ         Well, it's for a mod, so it's development
16:04 celeron55      https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/farming/init.lua#L321
16:04 ShadowNinja    rdococ: This channel is for engine development.
16:04 celeron55      almost everything about minetest is development; that's why this channel is only about certain development 8)
16:04 ShadowNinja    (aka the core)
16:05 rdococ         Oh. Thanks for clarification.
16:32 VanessaE       speaking of certain types of developments...
16:33 VanessaE       has this been addressed yet?  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7102951/
16:33 VanessaE       seems to be new
16:34 VanessaE       but I'm a day or two behind on core
16:35 troller        old bug, generate sand float isand and touch it..
16:35 troller        it was fixed in <censored> ;0
16:35 VanessaE       troller: I'vegenerated sand blocks with tens of thousands of nodes without ever causing that.
16:35 VanessaE       (and made it fall of course)
16:35 troller        need mooore
16:36 troller        like 30x30x30
16:38 VanessaE       troller: I'm being told there is no sand or gravel islands in the area causing it
16:39 VanessaE       but there are quarries from Technic operating nearby, could be digging into some underground gravel maybe
16:39 VanessaE       bu that's hardly "30x30x30" node.a
16:39 VanessaE       nodes*
16:45 rdococ         Why are the icons in the inventory all mixed up? How do I fix it?
16:48 sfan5          are you using Windows?
16:48 sfan5          (it's a common problem there)
16:48 rdococ         Yeah, and why does it bug in windows?
16:48 rdococ         I tried installing for ubuntu but it crashed
16:48 rdococ         I want to fix it as it's so annoying
16:49 sfan5          if it crashes it would be useful to report that on the forums/github
16:49 rdococ         No what I mean is that my ubuntu crashes frequently and it just happened to while installing minetest
16:49 sfan5          ah
16:50 rdococ         I'll try again someday
16:50 hmmmm          hmm
16:50 hmmmm          guys, we need a two-man system for backporting any bugfixes from freeminer
16:51 hmmmm          one person needs to find the commit that fixed it and describe at a high level what the problem was that it solved
16:51 hmmmm          and then another, separate person needs to actually implement a bugfix from that description of the problem alone
16:52 hmmmm          that second person should not be allowed to view freeminer's commits during the time they're implementing the fix
16:53 hmmmm          (of course, this is assuming freeminer has any fixes... usually freeminer's developments cause more bugs
16:53 troller        need more peoples for oneline fixes!
16:53 troller        hmmmm, what bugs of fm do you know?
16:57 nore           hmmmm, what was done here was to add a delay when nodeupdate makes recursive calls
16:57 VanessaE       ok guys, my logs shows this crash keeps happening when someone digs stuff like farming:cotton_8
16:57 VanessaE       wtf?
16:58 nore           now that I've seen the commit, I'm not allowed to code the fix, right?
16:58 VanessaE       nore: it would be useful to know just how deep the recursion went before the crash too
16:59 nore           VanessaE, did you try to make a 1x1x100 line of sand fall?
16:59 nore           (perhaps x500)
17:00 VanessaE       nore: I did not.  but in the past, i've done things like 50x1x50 without failures like this
17:00 VanessaE       and even 200x1x200
17:00 VanessaE       THIS is happening during routine gameplay
17:01 nore           do you have a reliable way of reproducing the bug?
17:01 VanessaE       I used to generate and make-fall "hundreds x 1 x hundreds" sand or gravel islands as a hacky way to fix bad lighting
17:02 VanessaE       nore: that's just it, I haven't the foggiest idea what's doing it.
17:02 VanessaE       take a look at this:
17:02 VanessaE       (wait)
17:03 rdococ         Can we make a version of minetest for mobile devices, like Minecraft PE but never lags?
17:03 hmmmm          you say "we" like you're having a part in doing it
17:04 hmmmm          and yes, an *official* android port is almost complete, thanks to sapier
17:04 VanessaE       nore: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7103132/
17:04 hmmmm          nore:  thank you.  you can't do it though, otherwise that might be construed as a copyright violation
17:04 VanessaE       hmmmm: sapier's build finally runs on my little piece of crap tablet :)
17:06 hmmmm          runs, but does it run well...
17:06 VanessaE       hmmmm: about as well as buildcraft did
17:06 hmmmm          i personally think it's impossible to get minetest to run well enough on these cpu-bottlenecked devices
17:06 VanessaE       I didn't get a lot of time to test it
17:06 VanessaE       BUT
17:06 VanessaE       it works better than BC
17:06 hmmmm          of course
17:06 troller        need to make looot of optimizations to run well
17:07 hmmmm          BC is just some hacked together crap to make a quick buck
17:07 hmmmm          did anybody look into DMCA takedowns for the samsung appstore and that other thing?
17:07 hmmmm          i think it was amazon
17:07 hmmmm          who here handles the legal issues?
17:15 nore           I made a 60^3 sand island fall ~10 mins ago... the server is still using all my CPU...
17:15 VanessaE       I'm being told now that even if there are technic quarries operating and digging into sand or gravel, they don't cause those nodes to fall so this must be a normal user dig action
17:18 nore           ah, it works again, a lot of entities are being destroyed since they got above the limit of objects per block
17:20 celeron55      hmmmm: nobody anymore; doing it is worthless
17:20 nore           btw: what may perhaps cause a crash is that entity id is an u16... and you get above this limit when making so much sand fall
17:20 celeron55      just get the official port going and only an insignificant number of people will look at the other crapware
17:21 nore           ok, now it looks like the server is working again, but I get a lot of 18:20:43: ERROR[ServerThread]: Server::ProcessData(): Cancelling: No player for peer_id=2
17:22 nore           and mainloop still eats a lot of time: I have fps = 6 with drawtime = 30
17:23 nore           (0.3 for mainloop_dtime and 0.3 for mainloop_other)
17:25 hmmmm          I think I got an idea
17:25 hmmmm          celeron:  re our discussion from last night
17:25 hmmmm          have you ever seen a super-simplified gaussian blur approximation where it just calculates two convolutions of a flat blur kernel
17:26 hmmmm          what it does is keeps a running total of each value in the immediate radius in the X direction and sets the pixel at the curernt point to that running total / number of samples
17:26 hmmmm          that is the definition of "mean"
17:27 VanessaE       nore: seems that there needs to be water nearby
17:27 hmmmm          so we calculate this simplified gaussian of a chunk and set that aside
17:27 nore           VanessaE, for what?
17:27 hmmmm          now, statistical variance is defined as sum(p_i * (x_i - mean)^2
17:27 hmmmm          we rearrange this to the simplified equation of
17:28 hmmmm          sum((p_i * x_i^2)) - mean^2
17:28 VanessaE       nore:  for the crash,   all I'm getting so far from twoelk is water, dirt, and sand/graven seem to be needed in close proximity.  He's now lost a water source that was in the ground, but the flowing water that it produced is still present.
17:28 hmmmm          our samples all have equal weights so we can simplify this to
17:28 hmmmm          sum(x_i^2) / N - mean^2
17:28 hmmmm          remember the previous gaussian blur calculation?
17:29 hmmmm          square each value and you have that second component
17:29 hmmmm          now all you have to do is, when keeping the running total, square each value before adding it in or subtracting it out
17:29 VanessaE       gravel*
17:30 hmmmm          this comes to a total of 4 sweeps over each value in the chunk for a decent approximation of the variance blur that I wanted
17:30 hmmmm          err, I didn't highlight you... celeron55
17:30 celeron55      >when keeping the running total, square each value before adding it in or subtracting it out
17:30 celeron55      does that actually work
17:31 hmmmm          you have your running total, call it h
17:31 hmmmm          h -= (map[i - radius / 2] * map[i - radius / 2]);
17:31 hmmmm          and now
17:32 celeron55      but whatever, doing the squaring in a second step is totally feasible too so i don't need to care (ehm... i think)
17:32 hmmmm          h += (map[i + radius / 2] * map[i + radius / 2]);
17:32 hmmmm          output[i] = (h / radius);
17:33 celeron55      so, given that that works, what are you going to do then
17:33 celeron55      you have your variance
17:33 hmmmm          that's difficult because you have to overcalculate the map
17:33 hmmmm          this wouldn't be much of a problem if we didn't have 3d noise
17:35 hmmmm          if there's 3d noise, you can't just calculate a 2d height map, you need to poll every single point in the space which is much, much more computationally intensive
17:36 celeron55      hmm, true
17:36 nore           now I get that: 18:35:07: ERROR[main]: ClientEnvironment::processActiveObjectMessage(): id=1 type=e SerializationError in processMessage(), message=""
17:37 hmmmm          ahhhh
17:37 hmmmm          but that's actually not a real problem
17:38 hmmmm          because i maintain a heightmap after all terrain modifications
17:38 hmmmm          after all phases, 2d noise, 3d positive, 3d negative, discrete features, and then cave carving, I do a plain top-down scan until I hit a solid block
17:39 hmmmm          this is in the mapgen phase
17:39 hmmmm          er nevermind, because this still necessitates overgenerating the entire cubic area
17:40 hmmmm          if we go ahead with overgeneration, it might be a good idea to solve the cave problem once and for all at the same time
17:40 hmmmm          but this is going to make map generation noticably slower
17:40 celeron55      well i guess the question is, how much overgeneration is needed
17:40 hmmmm          one block in all directions
17:41 celeron55      is that enough?
17:41 hmmmm          of course
17:41 celeron55      i don't think it's obvious at all
17:41 hmmmm          i don't plan on making terrain variance radiuses greater than 32
17:41 celeron55      a large-scale variation could be useful too; with a larger radius than 16
17:41 hmmmm          no, 32
17:41 hmmmm          because it's halved, remember?
17:42 hmmmm          only half of the radius sticks out
17:42 celeron55      oh well whatever, sampling radius anyway
17:42 hmmmm          large-scale variation is a much, much more difficult problem
17:42 hmmmm          i don't want to go there
17:42 celeron55      if not mapblocks, then the option would be to buffer generation as full chunks
17:43 celeron55      but that's probably too unresponsive
17:43 hmmmm          at that point it's absolutely necessary to go with a perlin noise manipulation-based approach for getting variance
17:43 hmmmm          which dictates mapgen design
17:43 celeron55      okay i think that option can be closed as infeasible then
17:44 hmmmm          you present an interesting idea
17:44 hmmmm          so what if terrain was done in a separate phase than the rest of it
17:44 hmmmm          whenever a chunk is requested for generation, it'll generate the terrain only of all the neighbors
17:44 celeron55      it would potentially be simpler than the block one
17:44 hmmmm          when it goes to actually request generation of those blocks
17:45 hmmmm          you just calculate the biomes and set the top nodes and add vegetation
17:47 hmmmm          so blocks can have three states
17:47 hmmmm          ungenerated, terrain formed, decorated
17:47 hmmmm          decorated is the final state
17:48 celeron55      do we need to actually care whether only strips of blocks are left in the terrain state or whether it's full chunks
17:48 hmmmm          this is easy to talk about but it'd mark a rather large change in the way minetest works
17:48 celeron55      maybe not
17:48 hmmmm          good point
17:49 hmmmm          we could get away with only doing this for mapblocks
17:49 hmmmm          then that 3x3x3 inner mapblock area of each chunk, they would be completely generated in one single phase
17:49 celeron55      well it's going to work in one of those ways and nothing else, but it may not matter which is chosen in the end
17:50 VanessaE       nore: [03-16 13:49] <twoelk> the server seems to crash if I dig in a certain area, or water touches those nodes
17:50 hmmmm          cool
17:50 hmmmm          it works in concept
17:50 hmmmm          now how do we parallelize it
17:51 celeron55      there are still the old issues of merging decorations and lighting at the edges
17:51 hmmmm          LIGHTING.
17:52 hmmmm          ugh lighting
17:52 hmmmm          kill me now
17:52 troller        remove lighting from server!
17:52 celeron55      if that happens, then this is the 0.5 branch
17:52 hmmmm          realbadangel is working on hardware lighting
17:53 hmmmm          that sort of development, combined with removing param1, would be 0.5.0 worthy
17:53 hmmmm          repurposing param1 rather
17:53 celeron55      i don't think in terms of "worthy", i think in terms of "necessary"
17:54 celeron55      (such a thing is going to take time to mature)
17:54 celeron55      (while being incompatible)
17:55 celeron55      (while being used)
17:55 hmmmm          good point
17:56 hmmmm          hmm
17:56 hmmmm          well I know what I need to work on
17:57 hmmmm          thing is, where am I going to find the time to do this :D  I'm in the middle of switching jobs and all this nonsense
17:57 celeron55      ask less hours in the new job
17:58 hmmmm          lol
17:58 celeron55      some people say though that working for free is stupid; it's what tends to happen when working on minetest
17:58 hmmmm          i don't know if I can work part time at other companies
17:58 celeron55      i have a four-day work week at the moment; it's nice
17:59 hmmmm          here, I can, but that's rare
17:59 hmmmm          they also allow overtime which is extremely rare (but you need to be authorized to use it)
17:59 celeron55      if i could, i would pay for you, but there's no money moving anywhere regarding to minetest so that won't happen
18:00 hmmmm          d'aw thanks <3
18:00 celeron55      (in case that's not obvious to somebody...)
18:00 celeron55      i would pay myself also, but that won't happen either
18:02 hmmmm          you know I was thinking, what if we switch back over to GPL and then use a dual licensing scheme so commercial users would have to pay for licenses
18:02 hmmmm          if Minetest gets even more generic than it is right now, and really good, it might be a viable game engine
18:03 hmmmm          like unity except for block-based-bullshit
18:04 celeron55      if minetest licenses would be sold, then there needs to be a for-profit or not-for-profit organization doing that
18:04 celeron55      so that the legal stuff can be actually sorted out
18:05 celeron55      but there's an issue in that scheme: the sold thing would only be under LGPLv2
18:05 celeron55      not more free
18:06 celeron55      unless a lot of legally very questionable decisions were made
18:07 hmmmm          hmm
18:07 hmmmm          true, because then you'd need to discuss this with everybody who has made contributions and have them agree or tear their code out
18:07 Calinou        <hmmmm> you know I was thinking, what if we switch back over to GPL and then use a dual licensing scheme so commercial users would have to pay for licenses
18:07 celeron55      of course if many people are interested in using a lot of time for such (there *is* some money to be made there), then a completely rewrite is totally possible
18:07 Calinou        commercial usage is already allowed; don't mix commercial an proprietary
18:07 celeron55      but only if people work like in a whatever startup
18:07 * Calinou      builds a MG42 in the channel...
18:07 hmmmm          right
18:08 hmmmm          this would be a startup kind of thing
18:08 hmmmm          at this point we'd need to look around for VC funding
18:08 Calinou        also, is it really useful to be a game engine just about voxels? there doesn't seem to be much kind of games you can make out of it
18:08 hmmmm          calinou, voxels are just what you see
18:09 hmmmm          there's nothing stopping you from making sloped nodes and whatever
18:09 celeron55      funding isn't probably *that* hard; for example the EU is currently giving money to new game projects (something like 50% them, 50% bank)
18:09 hmmmm          celeron, funding is really difficult here in 'murrika if you don't have a solid business plan and angel investors
18:09 Calinou        crowdfunding is tricky around voxel-based games right now
18:10 hmmmm          how would that even work?
18:10 Calinou        lots of scams ;)
18:10 hmmmm          not crowdfunding
18:10 celeron55      well minecraft-like games are going out of fashion at the moment
18:10 celeron55      so obviously getting anyone interested is very hard
18:10 hmmmm          as a whole, the gaming industry is low profit margin
18:11 hmmmm          it makes me feel like the whole thing would be a gigantic waste of effort for just breaking even
18:11 celeron55      yes unless you're making scammy mobile game
18:11 celeron55      +
18:11 celeron55      s
18:11 hmmmm          hah
18:11 hmmmm          oh so true
18:11 hmmmm          we'd have to rename minetest to zyngtest or something and then load it with ads and do data mining on individuals' private information
18:12 celeron55      mese pickaxe for $1
18:12 celeron55      instant monies
18:12 hmmmm          awesome
18:12 hmmmm          microtransactions are perfect for minetest actually
18:12 hmmmm          just that we'd need an "official" network
18:13 hmmmm          none of this works well with free software though
18:13 celeron55      if we want to get rich, we could set up "free" servers where people can buy items
18:13 celeron55      it would actually work, right away
18:13 hmmmm          well, by 'rich' you mean like $50 tops
18:14 hmmmm          minetest's userbase is tinnnnny
18:14 celeron55      well yeah, it would require a lot of marketing
18:14 hmmmm          running a business is hard work
18:14 hmmmm          and then we'd have to decide how contributors fit into all of this
18:14 hmmmm          would we turn into something like a redhat except for FOSS games?
18:15 twoelk         nore: regarding crashes on VE-Creative. Digging in other places is possible, protected or not. The server crash seems to be restricted to digging in a certain region. Waterflow seems to not be vital for the crash but might favor it.
18:15 celeron55      i'm not going to do that though; i don't have a need to scam people for the sake of it
18:15 celeron55      or for the sake if getting money
18:15 hmmmm          i'll agree that there are simply too many problems with this idea
18:15 hmmmm          but keep up the entrepenurial spirit.  passive income is a necessity these days
18:17 ShadowNinja    <ShadowNinja> Where was that thing that we set up where you could make a donation for a particular issue?  It didn't get mentioned anywhere but this channel so it was never used, but maybe it would if we mentioned it on the donations page.
18:17 sapier         https://github.com/sapier/minetest/tree/android_2
18:18 hmmmm          there's no way anybody would donate more than 10 cents to minetest
18:18 hmmmm          it's truly a labor of love
18:18 sapier         http://animalsmod.comuf.com/downloads/Minetest-debug.apk
18:18 troller        now MT have too low quality and alpha status to earn money
18:18 celeron55      ShadowNinja: bountysource
18:19 celeron55      hmmmm: well, when i have the donation page open on the website, people donate enough to cover the hosting and a bit more (i don't host the forum though)
18:20 celeron55      which is, around $100 a year, total
18:20 sapier         could someone please look at the ngmm* files, I've done a major refactoring of mainmenu code. Imho the new variant is much more clean and consistent. But as always it may be personal preference so your opinion is welcome
18:20 celeron55      currently it's closed because it seriously collects more money than i have any good use for
18:21 hmmmm          fair enough
18:21 iqualfragile   the android version could be sould
18:21 iqualfragile   would even be legal
18:21 sapier         basicaly new code adds tabviews and dialogs which can be visible or not. A tabview is standalone while a dialog always has to have a parent to return to
18:21 hmmmm          nobody's trying to make a profit on minetest, we decided that a while ago :)
18:21 sapier         tabviews contain tabs .. surprise surprise ;-)
18:21 celeron55      so there's probably potential in getting a bit of money; but definitely not anywhere close to a wage or something; more like an occasional cup of coffee
18:22 celeron55      for everyone doing coding at a given moment
18:22 hmmmm          wish i had an android device to try sapier's port on
18:22 * iqualfragile too
18:22 celeron55      of course we could pour the money to people who live in poor countries where it makes more difference
18:22 sapier         maybe some sort of developer meeting? ... well that's gonna be difficult I know
18:22 hmmmm          heh
18:22 VanessaE       sapier: dream on :P
18:23 rubenwardy     Testcon
18:23 rubenwardy     We all live to far apart to do that :P
18:23 sapier         I like celerons idea
18:23 celeron55      we had one! there was me and iqualfragile!
18:23 iqualfragile   while i am no developer i actually went to finnland, its not that far away
18:23 iqualfragile   yep
18:23 hmmmm          and here I am having a hard enough time trying to convince my company to send me to defcon :)
18:24 sapier         finnland ... I'm not sure if I wanna be that close to russia the next months ;-)
18:24 troller        here too many bears!
18:24 sapier         btw does anyone have an idea why modstore is broken atm?
18:25 celeron55      one option: we could set a price for the android version in the app store, but provide it for free on our website
18:26 celeron55      then lazy rich people would pay for it and others could get it for no money
18:26 sapier         I assume appstore doesn't support "pay as much as you want" ?
18:26 hmmmm          awesome
18:26 hmmmm          let's do it
18:26 celeron55      then we need some way to handle the money; am i the one who does that?
18:27 hmmmm          sapier should get half the profits :p
18:27 sapier         who who slow down guys, it's not yet complete ... there's some polishing to do
18:27 celeron55      at least i've been doing all of the money stuff until this point and apparently people don't hate me yet for stealing it
18:27 hmmmm          still though, the android port took a LOT of work and it wouldn't ever exist without you.
18:27 sapier         no big things but takes time and doesn't show a lot of progress ... as always ;.)
18:28 sapier         there have been a lot of others contributing too
18:28 twoelk         mc took money for bugg-alpha/beta
18:29 iqualfragile   sapier: i gues the finns can defend themselves
18:29 sfan5          >then lazy rich people would pay for it and others could get it for no money
18:29 sfan5          s/lazy rich people/people who have been told that unknown app sources are really bad/
18:30 celeron55      it would go somehow like this: i pay for getting an account on google play, then after the cost of that is covered, sapier gets a good bunch of coffee money, and after that I need some planned way of using it (there may be anything between 0 to "too much")
18:30 sfan5          hey, I want money too :-(
18:30 iqualfragile   everybody wants money
18:30 iqualfragile   sounds like a good idea
18:30 hmmmm          personally I'm ok
18:30 celeron55      of course everyone wants money; that's the issue here
18:30 sapier         I'm for donating "too much" money
18:31 iqualfragile   or using it to host all of minetests presence first and then donating it
18:31 hmmmm          i hardly work on minetest these days
18:31 sapier         hmm guess I'm not "everyone" ;-)
18:31 iqualfragile   another option would be to use this bittip thingy
18:31 sapier         of course expenses need to be paid first
18:31 hmmmm          bittip or gittip?
18:31 sfan5          how about both?
18:32 celeron55      it's not really good because it encourages developers to try to look good instead of be useful
18:32 hmmmm          lol, that ashe dreyden gets $600/week from gittip and she does nothing but bitch on twitter about the evil white males
18:32 celeron55      and again, nobody has actual use for the money that ensues from donations
18:32 sapier         the one who's got the expenses should be aware that once there's real money he's required to provide the docs about it ... yes that's quite normal for some people ... for others not
18:33 iqualfragile   yet another option would be to use it to reward the implementation of some more complex features
18:34 hmmmm          not sure how it works in the EU, but here you need to set up minetest as an NPO to make donations non-taxable
18:34 celeron55      i roughly know the finnish law about this; if i'm doing it as a person, it's roughly legal if i pay income tax of it and then give it away as "gifts"
18:34 hmmmm          so there'd be quite a bit of legal legwork first
18:34 hmmmm          ew
18:34 celeron55      (that's about the paid app)
18:34 hmmmm          you would not want to pay income tax on this
18:34 sapier         at least in germany it's same too
18:34 hmmmm          oh yeah
18:34 VanessaE       it also depends on just how much you get, too
18:34 hmmmm          well if you set it up as a not-for-profit organization it'd be tax free as well
18:34 sapier         and there's plenty of paperwork to do each year to stay tax free
18:35 VanessaE       if this were US-based, if it's less than like $8000 a year or so, you don't have to report it at all
18:35 celeron55      for donations the finnish law is rather vague, but my interpretation of it is that i don't need to do anything special for these donations that i have been handling now
18:35 VanessaE       (I forget the exact threshold)
18:35 hmmmm          the point is that there's no way in hell we should pay tax for minetest donations because our respective governments aren't doing jack shit and profiting off of something that we don't get compensated for anyway
18:35 hmmmm          and then what does it get spent on?
18:35 hmmmm          funding so we can get spied on illegally
18:36 sapier         but in germany we've got a saying "first hunt the animal prior donating it" ;)
18:36 hmmmm          so as a matter of efficiency and principle, we need to make sure any profit from minetest is not taxed
18:36 celeron55      if a non-profit is formed, that should probably happen in germany because most people are from there
18:36 iqualfragile   hmmmm: or make it 'murica based because they have allmost no taxes there
18:37 hmmmm          hmm yes
18:37 celeron55      (and germany is a roughly sane country)
18:37 hmmmm          the appstore purchases are technically donations
18:37 hmmmm          and if not, we change status to 'not for profit'
18:37 sapier         There are some minor things left: settings, npot2 images, https certificates, controls(decide about how to do it in final version) and a lot of testing ;-)
18:37 hmmmm          which is slightly different
18:37 hmmmm          iqualfragile:  that's BS.  there is a shitton of taxes here
18:38 sapier         and wchar handling, the current variant is quite hacky ;-)
18:38 hmmmm          if you fart or cough, there's a tax for that
18:38 iqualfragile   hmmmm: hahaha
18:38 hmmmm          and hardly any of it goes to anytihng useful
18:38 sfan5          sapier: simply resize them with nearest-neighbor in irrlicht before loading them, I didn't see a quality-decreasement when doing that
18:38 iqualfragile   can you aproximate how much of your income gois into taxes?
18:38 sfan5          >taxes >NSA
18:39 hmmmm          *my* income?  not much, but that's because I don't make much to begin with and I'm getting a lot of deductions and credits this year because I was a student in 2013 and all this stuff
18:39 sapier         sfan5 I can't resize images in irrlicht because irrlicht can only resize textures ... and textures have to be npot2 on some architecures ;-)
18:39 sapier         or did I miss another way of resizing?
18:40 sfan5          sapier: 1) implement nearest-neighbor for images in Irrlicht 2) ??? 3) Profit
18:40 iqualfragile   hmmmm: in germany its about 50% unless you realy do not get a lot
18:40 iqualfragile   in finnland its even more
18:40 hmmmm          gotta wonder how anybody is able to save
18:40 celeron55      one option would be to beg to be part of sfconservancy.org or another similar entity, and handle donations through that
18:40 iqualfragile   so compared to that there are allmost no taxes in 'murica
18:40 hmmmm          true.
18:41 hmmmm          but those countries actually do things for you
18:41 hmmmm          murrica doesn't do shit
18:41 iqualfragile   i know
18:41 hmmmm          they just shit on your head and tell you to be grateful and be proud of your country
18:41 iqualfragile   well, it does run some wars, doesnt it?
18:41 iqualfragile   but this is getting ot
18:41 celeron55      that all depends on how you calculate the total tax, which is practically impossible in a comparable and universal way
18:41 VanessaE       wars?  :-/
18:41 sapier         sfan5? sorry lost context for your last answer
18:41 celeron55      so let's not talk about that
18:42 hmmmm          true
18:42 celeron55      so any thoughts about sfconservancy.org?
18:42 sfan5          sapier: add code to irrlicht to resize images
18:42 hmmmm          can't comment, i don't really know anything about it
18:42 celeron55      the projects in there tend to be rather high tier
18:42 hmmmm          sfan5:  read up, he mentioned why he can't
18:43 celeron55      hmmmm: it's one of those non-profits that have been created in order to legally handle donations and legal issues for open source projects
18:43 hmmmm          ahh
18:43 sapier         I always can add code to resize images but that's the last thing to do
18:43 hmmmm          bretty gud
18:43 hmmmm          we might have to check it out
18:43 sapier         as I'd have to implement the image format myself
18:43 sfan5          hmmmm: images, not textures; You should be able to resize images independently of what your GPU wants
18:43 celeron55      the projects on sfconservancy.org are rather high tier (git, wine, whatever)
18:43 celeron55      but we might find one that accepts minetest
18:44 sfan5          sapier: Irrlicht gives you an interface to access the pixels
18:44 sapier         sfan5 for what I read that isn't possible
18:44 iqualfragile   well, we could allways ask
18:44 sfan5          sapier: so you say my GPU has an effect on normal calculations my CPU does?
18:45 celeron55      i have no idea what the goal should be with that either though
18:45 iqualfragile   "Project leaders […] are encouraged to apply for membership."
18:45 sapier         that was meant as irrlicht doesn't support resizing by default, of course we can do pixel based resizing but that's more then ugly
18:45 sfan5          iqualfragile: pssst... almost* and always*
18:46 sapier         we're not a image manipulation lib ;-)
18:46 sfan5          why is pixel based resizing ugly?
18:46 iqualfragile   sfan5: i faill to see the probllem
18:47 sapier         because we have to do the subpixel calculation on our own or get really really ugly results
18:47 celeron55      sapier: you can get an image from irrlicht which you can resize as a bitmap and then you can insert it into irrlicht and get a texture
18:47 celeron55      that's what minetest's texture modifiers do
18:47 celeron55      and yes, you need to use a higher-resolution texture for upscaled things
18:48 iqualfragile   look like minetest kinda meets all the criteria, vibrant comunity being the only "critcal" point
18:48 celeron55      an alternative is to just blit the image to a 2^n image and then use different texture coordinates, but that's quite complicated
18:49 sapier         I'm for resizing official minetest logo to 128x128 ;-)
18:49 celeron55      (pixel-to-pixel, leaving blank space, in that case)
18:50 sapier         hmm I was hoping for some "use function xyz"-like answer ;-)
18:50 iqualfragile   sapier: if that realy is the only thing you would need it for: why not prescale it?
18:51 sapier         I haven't tried yet but I assume mesh textures and mod screenshots to be the usecases where non npot2 textures occur
18:51 ShadowNinja    sapier: The icon's SVG.
18:51 celeron55      sapier: i have heard that GPUs work better for textures that have power-of-two dimensions, even if they aren't the same (eg. 32x64); is this the case for android devices?
18:52 sfan5          celeron55: not for all devices; only for some
18:52 sapier         possible but some gpu's just fail completely for non npot2 textures
18:52 sapier         they just don't load them
18:52 celeron55      sapier: for gui images performance isn't an issue, just rescale the pixels
18:52 sfan5          iOS (atleast the GPU in my iTouch 5) wants npot2 textures too
18:52 celeron55      just add some special handling to tile.cpp
18:53 celeron55      or alternatively add a power-of-two-izer texture modifier that is specially applied everywhere on android
18:53 sapier         well I know where to add as I already added a warning there  :-)
18:53 celeron55      just make sure in a way or another that TextureSource doesn't hand out non-power-of-two textures on android; problem solved
18:54 celeron55      most performance-critical textures already are 2^n so that's not a problem
18:55 sfan5          sapier: does sound actually WORK on android?
18:55 sfan5          openal does not seem to find any real backends for me
18:55 sfan5          only WaveFile and Null
18:56 sapier         yes
18:56 sapier         at least I hear my steps on grass
18:56 sfan5          hm
18:56 sfan5          did you use official openal srcs
18:56 sfan5          ?
18:56 sfan5          hm
18:57 sfan5          seems like -DLIBTYPE=STATIC makes OpenAL be a static library
18:57 sfan5          Linking C static library libopenal.a
18:57 sfan5          \o/
18:58 sapier         I did use the libs that work and I couldn't get some libs to build static ... well if I did spend some more days maybe but it wasn't worth the work for me
18:58 sapier         otheres built static but not their dependencys e.g. curl and ssl
18:59 sfan5          curl does not build static?
19:00 celeron55      iqualfragile: the issue is, they probably want to know where the project is going
19:00 sapier         curl does but openssl doesn't at least I didn't manage to make curl use the static linked openssl
19:00 iqualfragile   celeron55: yeah, just think of some stuff
19:00 iqualfragile   (xyz|imag1nary please cut this part from the logs :D)
19:01 sfan5          sapier: isn't openssl already included with android?
19:01 sfan5          do we even need ssl support?
19:01 sapier         there are about 10 openssl-android trees out there exactly one very outdated one uses static linking
19:01 iqualfragile   android release would be a big point, wouldnt it?
19:01 sapier         well someone decided to switch mmdb to https some months ago ... so we need it
19:01 sfan5          oh
19:01 sfan5          mh
19:02 sapier         didn't realize this till yesterday too
19:02 sfan5          that explains why that does not work
19:02 celeron55      well, i can always reference the blog post that i made
19:02 iqualfragile   sfan5: no it does not
19:02 celeron55      but there's no roadmap or such
19:02 sfan5          no?
19:02 iqualfragile   the https change happened months ago
19:02 sfan5          iqualfragile: I mean on android
19:02 sapier         no need to defend it iqualfragile it's fine the way it is it's just some additional work :)
19:02 iqualfragile   oh, right, thats true
19:03 sapier         I didn't find a way to use androids openssl they don't provide access for ndk
19:03 sfan5          well
19:03 sfan5          gnutls should be easier to cross-compile
19:04 iqualfragile   take it AWAAAY
19:04 celeron55      remember to use a new enough gnutls 8)
19:04 celeron55      they had at least that one nice bug
19:04 sapier         easier then entering ndk-build?
19:04 iqualfragile   gnutls seems to love aquiring bugs
19:04 iqualfragile   the bad ones
19:04 sapier         the issue is not building the lib but telling curl build to use it correctly
19:04 sapier         for some reason this is way more easy for shared libs
19:05 sapier         maybe because shared libs are the 99% case on linux like os
19:06 sfan5          well
19:06 sfan5          what will we do on iOS then
19:06 sfan5          no shared libs there
19:07 sapier         I'm not gonna write a ios port ... but I consider transition to static libs to be polishing
19:07 iqualfragile   sfan5: hmm… is the ios hardware even powerfull enought?
19:07 sfan5          iqualfragile: yes, it should be
19:07 sapier         the hardware will be but you may not get enough access to it
19:07 sfan5          Apple build pretty powerful hardware into their devices
19:07 sfan5          builds*
19:11 sapier         silly question but how to calculate pot2 for a arbitrary number e.g. 3445?
19:11 sapier         despite of consecutive dividing by 2
19:11 sfan5          why would you need that
19:11 sfan5          ?
19:12 sapier         to get the size of the image to scale it to?
19:12 sfan5          simply resize the texture to width + (width % 2); height + (height % 2)
19:12 sfan5          oh wait
19:12 sapier         not modulo pot
19:13 sapier         53x19 --> 64x32
19:13 celeron55      determine the highest bit in the variable, then check if any other bits are set; if not, then it's 2^n, if so, then zero it and all other bits and set the bit that is one higher
19:14 celeron55      http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1322510/given-an-integer-how-do-i-find-the-next-largest-power-of-two-using-bit-twiddlin
19:14 celeron55      there are some practical solutions 8)
19:15 celeron55      of course just iterating through the 2^ns is probably plenty fast enough though
19:16 celeron55      there are only as many of those as there are bits
19:16 celeron55      the topmost answer is clearly the best though
19:17 sfan5          sapier: did you OpenAL build include support for OpenSL?
19:20 sfan5          ok
19:20 sfan5          found openal version that supports android
19:20 sfan5          https://github.com/AerialX/openal-soft-android
19:29 sapier         sfan why don't you just look at my branch build/android/makefile ... it's all there
19:31 sfan5          oh, rigth
19:31 sfan5          right*
19:35 sapier         did anyone succeed in ogles2 and meshes yet?
19:35 celeron55      in what?
19:36 sapier         there seems to be some mesh operation crashing if I switch to ogles2
19:36 celeron55      on sailfish, ogles2 works a bit
19:36 celeron55      it doesn't crash, but half of the meshes aren't drawn
19:36 sapier         something in inventory because once I move all things from panel to other inventory in ogles1 mode I can enter the game
19:37 celeron55      (sailfish-native i mean)
19:37 sapier         mabe same thing but more severe result
19:37 celeron55      to me it seemed like irrlicht's gles2 support is just broken
19:37 celeron55      like, not fully developed even
19:38 sapier         possible
19:38 celeron55      should ask from them
19:38 sapier         I see some rendering glitches too e.g. white pixels blinking between nodes
19:39 celeron55      that's probably a side-effect of the shader-implementation of the fixed pipeline
19:39 celeron55      the texture sampling code in there takes white pixels outside of textures instead of wrapping or ingoring them or something
19:39 celeron55      i'd guess
19:39 celeron55      (of course that's just one possibility)
19:40 sapier         maybe I don't know very much about graphics programming :-) you could tell me almost anything ;-)
19:40 sapier         but I had to copy shaders to assets in order to get ogles2 work so this sounds reasonable
19:41 celeron55      ogles2 can't render anything without having a shader do it, so irrlicht provides the default ones that do roughly the same thing as the fixed pipeline does (i.e. regular opengl without shaders)
19:42 sapier         ahh that does make sense
20:24 sapier         argh I hate irrlicht
20:24 sapier         they lie about npot 2 support
21:21 sapier         ok added non npot2 support
21:21 sapier         had to ask ogles myself because irrlicht claims limited apple npot2 support to be full npot2 support
22:18 RealBadAngel   hi all
22:18 RealBadAngel   so can we merge #1117 ?
22:18 ShadowBot      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1117 -- Normal maps generation on the fly. by RealBadAngel
22:21 ShadowNinja    Hmmm, I should test that.  I can't for at least a few hours though.
22:23 RealBadAngel   anybody else wanna test it?
22:26 sapier         << testing right now ... anything I have to look ?
22:29 sapier         do I need special textures?
22:31 ShadowNinja    sapier: Just make sure everything compiles and runs on your GPU.
22:31 RealBadAngel   just turn on shaders, bumpmapping and normal map generation
22:32 sapier         hmm I don't see leaves waving
22:32 RealBadAngel   2nd feature is overriding normals, https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=8714
22:33 RealBadAngel   sapier, are you trying it with minetest_game ?
22:45 sapier         I hate net splits
22:45 RealBadAngel   shit happens
22:46 RealBadAngel   about leaves and plants waving. you need minetest_game for it, minimal wont do
22:46 troller        sapier, fiiix!
22:46 troller        02:44:58: ACTION[ServerThread]: Guest7863 [::ffff:23.117.228.43] joins game.
22:46 troller        02:44:58: ACTION[ServerThread]: Guest7863 [::ffff:23.117.228.43] joins game. List of players:
22:46 PenguinDad     I don't seem to be able to reproduce #1175
22:46 ShadowBot      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1175 -- broken icon graphics with "preload item visuals"
22:47 sapier         troller if you did spend half of the time you spent on complaining for writing a fix you'd have a golden edge solution by now
22:54 ShadowNinja    troller: You can make a patch too.  It's most likely a one-line change.
22:54 troller        2 lines.
22:56 CiaranG        PenguinDad: pretty sure 1175 depends on video drivers or something - I get that same thing on maybe 4 out of 8 machines. I just turned it off.
22:56 troller        https://github.com/freeminer/freeminer/commit/0216127ffef1647241b5e93f370015d1dd2af594
22:57 sapier         DO NOT use those commits ... they're license incompatible to minetest
22:58 sapier         sorry proller but you have to either do a pull request to minetest or explicitly relicense your fixes lgpl if you do add them to freeminer only
22:58 troller        change one space ;)
22:59 sapier         ok :-) guess there's no big deal ... yet we can't directly merge them
23:00 sapier         but I guess writing functional equivalent code for this will not be a big deal ;-)
23:05 RealBadAngel   sapier, how testing goes?
23:05 sapier         we:-) despite of my sea sicknes it seems to be fine
23:09 iqualfragile   sapier: why is it license incompatible?
23:10 sapier         because freeminer switched to gpl which is less free then lgpl
23:10 sapier         this way proller can use minetest code in freeminer but not the other way round
23:11 iqualfragile   sapier: the LICENSE file in the freeminer repos still states gpl
23:12 sapier         as I said GPL not LGPL
23:12 sapier         you can't transfer GPL code to LGPL
23:12 iqualfragile   *lgpl
23:13 sapier         proller did you revert that change?
23:14 troller        no
23:15 sapier         hmm then you've got double licensing right now ;-)
23:16 troller        in LICENSE.txt nothing about freeminer
23:18 sapier         I thought I'd only have to deal with license issues at work now it's getting same crap here :-(
23:20 PilzAdam       sapier, as far as I see FM is under LGPL
23:21 sapier         PilzAdam: not entirely
23:21 PilzAdam       at least thats what their LICENSE.txt says
23:21 sapier         COPYING as well as headers of some of xyz's files specifyl gpl
23:22 RealBadAngel   sapier, you can try generatin normals on any texture pack
23:24 PilzAdam       can they distribute LGPL'd code under GPL without asking the orginal author?
23:24 sapier         yes
23:25 sapier         but most of those files are written by xyz anyway
23:27 sapier         and more relevant even if they couldn't change the license of existing code their additions would still be gpl
23:27 PilzAdam       they can only relicense it if they modify it
23:27 sapier         I don't se any reason to merge our own code back ;-)
23:27 sapier         we'd need the fixes but those are gpl
23:39 iqualfragile   uhm… no they actually can not do that
23:40 iqualfragile   wait, rethinking
23:40 sapier         that's what lgpl is for ;-)
23:42 iqualfragile   http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#LGPL
23:43 iqualfragile   (i did not quite understand why minetest switched to lgpl anyways)
23:44 sapier         because lgpl doesn't have the copyleft
23:44 sapier         basicaly proller did was lgpl was meant for ... he didn't agree with mainline development and forked
23:45 iqualfragile   "was" ^^
23:45 sapier         ok actually it wasn't proller but xyz
23:45 iqualfragile   you can do that with gpl, too
23:45 sapier         no you can't use gpl code in a lgpl project as this will result in the lgpl code beeing gpl
23:46 iqualfragile   again: i do not understand why minetest switched to lgpl
23:46 iqualfragile   switching to agpl would make more sense in my opinion
23:46 celeron55      it doesn't matter whether you understand it or not
23:46 celeron55      minetest uses lgpl and that's it
23:46 sapier         possible but we're way beyond the point where switching licenses is possible
23:46 sapier         at least for non compatible licenses :-)
23:47 iqualfragile   celeron55: iirc the license was changed a while ago, i would like to understand the reasons for that
23:47 celeron55      iqualfragile: a while? it was changed years ago
23:48 sapier         and it doesn't change the situation minetest is lgpl and we can't switch to a non compatible license
23:49 iqualfragile   sapier: it would be kinda possible
23:49 sapier         if you did ask anyone who contributed to minetest
23:49 celeron55      what about we switch to a license that disallows development and usage?
23:50 iqualfragile   celeron55: great idea!
23:50 celeron55      because people seem to like licenses that restrict things
23:50 sapier         I don't see a reason to switch license lgpl is not perfect but good enough
23:50 celeron55      now please everyone who cannot stand LGPL, leave this channel; it is not a thing that is arguable at all
23:51 celeron55      i consider one of my greates work regarding to minetest to be the ninja'ed license switch from GPL to LGPL
23:51 celeron55      +t
23:51 sapier         btw iqualfragile did you specify mmdb license yet? ;-)
23:52 iqualfragile   uhm… no
23:52 iqualfragile   :D
23:52 iqualfragile   licenses are hard
23:53 sapier         I suggest to decide for one we could realize by some time our mmdb and serverlist are non-free code ;-P
23:54 iqualfragile   hmm… i might go for agpl, but it will be hard to actually write that down as others (mainly jeija) contributed some stuffs and he is unreachable
23:54 celeron55      (and i consider one of my worst work to be the lockdown to GPL and due to that LGPL because i knew almost nothing about licenses initially)
23:56 celeron55      i was trying to go for BSD for contributions, but then i let it slip because the initial contributors were some GPL fanatics
23:56 celeron55      which was the worst idea ever
23:57 iqualfragile   well, maybe not, with gpl those craptastic buildcraft apps would be legal
23:58 iqualfragile   s/gpl/bsd
23:58 iqualfragile   additionally bsd brought us apple -.-
23:58 sapier         without those apps we'd not have a android port
23:59 sapier         it's quite simple if those crapy apps didn't ruin out reputation I'd not have started to link the pieces
23:59 sapier         at least not that early