Time Nick Message 01:16 celeron55 aaand it works with GLESv1: http://c55.me/random/2014-01/tscrot-2014-01-03_03-14-10.png 01:17 celeron55 now i need to just somehow hack it into landscape and we have one more useful touch interface development device 01:18 sapier1 great 01:21 sapier1 hmm dynamic casting in time critical areas doesn't seem to be a good idea :-/ 01:31 sapier1 thexyz could you give the new version a try? I was able to reproduce that issue and it's fixed for me. 01:38 sapier1 tcp did quite well if you take into account I forgot to update my fdset prior doing select within a loop of count 10 and ... select timeout 50ms ... so tcp was handled each 0.5 seconds only 01:44 hmmmm [05:22 PM] nobody pushed to stable-0.4 branch, mt_game isnt taged 01:44 hmmmm I thought you were doing minetest_game 01:44 hmmmm the -dev suffix gets reenabled the next time someone wants to commit something.... it doesn't need to be done immediately 02:37 VanessaE so about copy&paste into minetest in linux. 02:37 VanessaE is that ever gonna get fixed properly? 03:08 kahrl VanessaE: has anyone ever figured out how other irrlicht-based games fix it? 03:09 VanessaE kahrl: I'm not sure, all I do know is that for some folks under certain window managers, or certain clipboard managers, it does work 03:09 VanessaE it doesn't, for example, work in xfce, but I guess KDE users can use it? 03:10 kahrl I guess so; c&p is implemented in irrlicht but it uses a not-general-enough mechanism, it appears 03:10 VanessaE neither the ctrl-c/ctrl-v method, nor highligh/middle-click, nor selecting from xfce's clipboard manager work 03:10 VanessaE yet I can usually select something inside of minetest, and then copy that out and paste it into ghre. 03:10 VanessaE here* 03:11 VanessaE midnightsystems.kicks-ass.org <--- copied out of the main menu 03:11 VanessaE (ctrl-c/ctrl-v) 03:12 VanessaE works from the 't' chat dialog also 03:12 VanessaE can't highlight to copy at all in the F10 console 03:12 VanessaE (nor can I paste) 03:13 VanessaE some users have in the past reported that attempts to copy from somewhere else, say a terminal, and paste into minetest will actually *crash* the app from which the text was copied 03:15 VanessaE not sure if that's still the case though, haven't had it happen to me 03:21 kahrl same here: I can copy out of minetest, but not paste into it 03:21 kahrl (not in the F10 console, but c&p is not implemented at all there) 03:21 kahrl s/but/because 03:29 kahrl hmmmm: didn't nore already commit something after 0.4.9? or was that part of the release? 03:29 VanessaE I didn't notice? 03:29 VanessaE *checks log* 03:29 VanessaE yup 03:30 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/91923806a98fb5cc8e2bf6ed6a864b41337bb3e5 03:30 VanessaE I wonder if that's that glitch that sometimes affects signs, doors, etc when you aim at them from an oblique angle. 03:30 * VanessaE shrugs 03:30 VanessaE that's the only commit I see 03:30 kahrl could be 03:32 kahrl I noticed that behaviour when I modified getPointedThing for 0.4 and nodeboxes, but decided to leave it in because there often were item objects stuck inside nodes 03:32 kahrl so by prioritising objects it was possible to pick those items up 03:33 kahrl anyway, I'm readding the -dev suffix now 03:39 VanessaE now's the time to get some experimental stuff rebased and added 03:39 VanessaE that damn VBO patch needs to go in before it's lost forever 03:41 kahrl updated minetest_game's stable-0.4 branch and pushed the 0.4.9 tag 03:43 kahrl minetest's stable-0.4 is stuck on 0.4.8 too, let me update that 03:43 VanessaE criminy, lots of shit didn't get done did it 03:44 kahrl it's a bit horrifying 03:45 VanessaE I'm a little bit surprised no one's figured out how to script this 03:45 VanessaE you know, just ~/Scripts/make-minetest-release.sh 0.4.9 03:45 VanessaE or somethin 03:47 kahrl that should be possible actually 03:47 VanessaE the only less-than-doable part would be automating the build+upload of the windows package 03:48 VanessaE well I guess there's cross-compiling 03:48 VanessaE but then, no DX support if you do that. 06:58 VanessaE jeez 06:58 VanessaE quitting the client never seems to send the "quit" packet to the server 06:58 VanessaE always has to wait for a timeout. 09:22 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1081 <<< opinions please! 12:55 Ritchie hi, why cannot be disabled logging debug and action to console or logfile? 13:08 VanessaE just dump all output to /dev/null if you must 13:08 VanessaE but that's a bad idea 13:08 VanessaE makes it impossible to collect debug data if something crashes 13:22 Ritchie i want to log only errors, not actions 13:38 iqualfragile Ritchie: errors are usually caused by actions 13:38 iqualfragile btw:VanessaE pipeworks crashes on load 13:38 VanessaE oh? 13:38 VanessaE wfm :P 13:38 VanessaE what's the error? 13:38 iqualfragile sec 13:53 PilzAdam the -dev suffix gets reenabled the next time someone wants to commit something.... it doesn't need to be done immediately <- yea, but someone already pushed something without reenabling it 13:54 PilzAdam I guess it would help if one person organizes the release 13:54 nore PilzAdam, indeed, hadn't thought about that 14:03 xyz what's the point of whining so much about so unimportant things 14:04 PilzAdam xyz, whats the point of not following a simple step-by-step guide? 14:04 xyz all you do is whine about this or that 14:04 xyz what do we need -dev suffix for in the first place? 14:04 xyz the generateversion will append commit hash and other stuff anyway so it's not like anyone will confuse it with release 14:05 PilzAdam to easily tell if people use stable or a dev version if they report bugs 14:05 PilzAdam (if they not build in a git dir) 14:06 xyz indeed so what are the chances of someone building specific non-release commit in non-git dir? why get so pissy if someone forgot to enable -dev suffix, I don't understand 14:06 xyz you could as well have fixed this yourself 14:07 PilzAdam it was not my intention to sound "pissy" 14:07 PilzAdam I think its important to tell people what they can do better next time 14:09 PilzAdam and I havent fixed it myself because I am not allowed to push stuff without agreement of another core dev 14:10 sapier ok here it is https://github.com/sapier/minetest/tree/enet_support triple protocol client/server branch 14:10 sapier FIrst results: Download 170B media loopback starting multiplayer server from gui, time enter pwd -> in game: 14:11 sapier Legacy(fixed minetest protocol): 3:03 min 14:11 sapier Enet: 2:33 min 14:11 sapier TCP: 0:18 14:11 nore wow 14:12 sapier and NO last one isn't a typo ... tcp is lightning fast in this test 14:12 pitriss great.. 14:12 xyz I don't really get it, what's "triple" about it? 14:12 sapier you can connect using any of those protocols 14:13 xyz ah, I see, that's awful, but whatever 14:13 sapier I was to lazy to compile new everytime 14:13 sapier enet uses port+1 so this is not the final solution of course 14:14 xyz I don't really understand what did you test 14:14 sapier but that's an additional point, we can't create a dual protocol clientfor enet + legacy without a second port too 14:14 xyz 170 bytes of media or what? 14:14 sapier I made my server have 170mb of texture and media data and did connect 14:14 xyz localhost? 14:14 sapier yes 14:15 xyz ah 14:16 sapier of course that test is tcp's top performing task, so it's not the actual ranking I'm suprised about but the deltas 14:16 sapier I'd not have expected tcp to be that fast 14:16 sapier and to be honest I've expected more from enet 14:17 sapier especialy as it doesn't honor the 512byte udp datagramm limit 14:18 xyz well I guess it's not made for sending large media 14:18 xyz for anything that size (100 mb or so) I'd expect any sane person to set up a remote media server 14:18 xyz that's how other games do that, at least 14:19 sapier maybe but considering that someone even complained about having to open a tcp port to firewall if we use hybrid mode, setting up an additional server is even more work 14:20 sapier of course there are other issues that can be solved by a media server too 14:20 xyz you're comparing incomparable things now 14:21 xyz in that mode you called "hybrid" the server admin is always required to open a port 14:21 xyz setting up media server is only required when your media is too large; and you don't like the cdn for whatever reason 14:22 sapier ok lets not discuss about the cdn thing again it's not related to protocol at all ;-) 14:22 xyz then you should stop talking about media transfer either 14:23 sapier no we shouldn't as it's a task protocol has to cope with 14:23 xyz well then you should talk about it reasonably 14:23 sapier minetest is not a professional multiserver game 14:23 xyz what's the reasonable size of media? 14:23 xyz indeed it isn't 14:24 sapier as far as I know you usually have one server maybe a vps with multiple cores 14:24 xyz anyway since you yourself have agreed that this test doesn't show anything what shall we test the next? 14:24 sapier I'd not assume 100 mb texture+media size to be out of scope 14:25 sapier you said this test doesn't show anything 14:25 sapier that test shows what connect times in corner case will be 14:25 sapier a test testing non load situations is useless 14:26 xyz yes, well, my point is that media sending doesn't show much 14:26 sapier it's the first impression I'd not underestimate that fact 14:26 xyz well whatever 14:26 xyz I just compile and run enet_support and get tcp server and client, right? 14:27 sapier there's a config setting to switch between all three modes 14:27 xyz well it complains about missing header enet/enet.h, perhaps you forgot to include something? 14:27 sapier client_protocol=(legacy,tcp,enet) 14:28 sapier server will always accept all of them 14:28 sapier no I used system enet 14:28 xyz ah that's a terrible idea 14:28 sapier that's the one and only sane idea 14:28 xyz yeah sure 14:28 sapier why should I build a own enet if there's even a debian package available? 14:29 xyz because that's how enet recommends to do things 14:29 sapier of course cmake should have a look for it 14:29 xyz there could be protocol-breaking changes 14:29 xyz say, enet updated to enet2 tomorrow 14:29 xyz in arch repos, but not in debian 14:30 xyz uh oh bad luck 14:30 sapier you know this is a con for enet? 14:30 xyz no, I don't think it is 14:31 xyz well, I honestly don't care that much anyway 14:31 sapier I'd consider it a con to depend on some other lib for my own project to be compatible to my old versions 14:31 xyz I just think that your way of doing some things is wrong, that's all 14:31 sapier because once enet breaks protocol we have to either maintain it ourselfs or break with old clients too 14:32 sapier xyz :-) I do think same about your way ;-) 14:32 sapier yet I guess you'll manage to compile it do you? 14:34 sapier and for enet included to minetest or not ... actually I don't really care about, I prefere using system libs where possible, but I won't argue about it if someone volonteers to do the work avoiding the system package ;-) 14:35 xyz I don't think we've decided to include any of those 14:35 xyz have we? 14:35 sapier nothing is decided by now 14:36 xyz I see 14:36 sapier if someone suggests a udp based protocol outperforming tcp on big data that one might have even better chances to win then enet or tcp itself 14:37 xyz for some reason I see "what(): Failed to bind TCP socket" when I restart my minetestserver 14:37 xyz after some time it goes away 14:37 sapier just ignore those small glitches 14:38 sapier there are plenty of random issues in there that need to be fixed but they're not show stoppers for testing 14:38 sapier at least not those I know abot 14:39 sapier btw I still haven't removed the conlock ... this might limit tcp and legacy performance in scenarios with lots of clients 14:39 sapier for enet this won't change anything it's already limited by single thread design 14:40 sapier and no it's not unfair, enet just doesn't support multithreading 14:41 xyz hm, I'm afraid you did something wrong about enet 14:41 xyz I've just checked your branch, it runs goddamn slow there and can't even handle 50 clients, and there are some lags in single player game as well 14:41 xyz while in my branch it can easily handle 100 clients 14:42 sapier any idea? 14:44 sapier because if it's not a benefit of enet it might be a global fixable issue 14:46 xyz well there's one easy thing you missed 14:46 xyz fixing it improved the situation but I still feel that something's too slow 14:46 sapier can you tell me what it is? 14:47 xyz well it's right here https://github.com/sapier/minetest/blob/enet_support/src/connection.cpp#L1388 14:47 xyz anyway, for some reason the server asserts from time to time 14:48 sapier what's wrong there? 14:48 xyz you should use if instead of while there 14:49 sapier true 14:49 sapier but will result in a single packet beeing proccessed at once only 14:50 xyz this doesn't matter 14:51 sapier ok then we should tcp to do it same way to ;-) it's trading cpu power for latency 14:51 sapier but it's hard to compare as tcp isn't limited that much by this issue due to separate send and receive threads 14:52 xyz uhm, did you get what's the issue about? 14:52 xyz if send and receive threads are separated then it shouldn't affect it at all 14:52 sapier if course enet does only process incoming packets in this loop as of some incoming packet threshold is reached 14:53 xyz no, I was talking about other thing 14:53 xyz let's say you receive a packet every 50 ms or less 14:54 xyz this means you'll never send anything 14:54 xyz because you'll never get out of this while 14:54 sapier they are because in tcp packets aren't packets but a continous stream, where multiple packets are extracted from that stream prior packet processing 14:55 sapier that's what I meant with "packet threshold" 14:55 xyz that issue is really simple and doesn't require any network knowledge 14:55 sapier so yes this is a bug in enet implementation I haven't thought about 14:56 sapier no matter it's fixed 14:57 sapier ok what else 14:59 xyz well let's see.. 14:59 sapier of course I can reduce the timeout to < 50 .. but this will increase cpu load in idle situations too 14:59 xyz did you profile it? 15:00 xyz well how about 10 15:00 xyz at least, that's what I used so it'll be more honest to compare it this way 15:00 sapier not yet but I don't have to profile something to know running loops in 50ms raster causes less load then running them in 10ms 15:00 xyz although under load it shouldn't matter 15:00 xyz I'm talking about profiling this thing in general 15:01 sapier split thread design doesn't need this as they're woken up by incomming commands 15:01 xyz I had to fix other stuff 15:01 xyz in my branch 15:02 sapier that's why you've been suggested to push to minetest 15:02 sapier it's already impossible to compare freeminer to minetest 15:02 xyz aww, it crashed 15:03 xyz well, from time to time I posted some commits that improve performance a bit there 15:03 sapier it's a prototype ;-) 15:03 sapier error handling is most likely neither complete nor gracefull ;-) 15:04 sapier what do you use for profiling? 15:04 xyz /home/xyz/minetest/minetest-sapier/src/connection.cpp:1551: void con::ConnectionEnetThread::processCommand(con::ConnectionCommand&): Assertion '"Got command that shouldn't be sent through enet command" == 0' failed. 15:05 sapier hmm disconnect? :-) 15:05 xyz I use Intel VTune Amplifier 15:05 sapier guess that one isn't freely available? ;-) 15:06 xyz ah 15:06 xyz that happens when max_users is met 15:06 xyz well, it's free as free beer for Linux 15:06 sapier ok that's missing too I don't honor the max user setting in enet 15:06 xyz and non-commercial stuff 15:07 xyz so if that's fine you can grab it 15:07 sapier tried 65k but enet failed :-) 15:07 sapier there seems to be some limit for maximum user count 15:07 xyz right 15:08 xyz now it crashed with /home/xyz/minetest/minetest-sapier/src/connection.cpp:1474: void con::ConnectionEnetThread::sendCmd(con::ConnectionCommand&): Assertion '"ENET failed to send data!" == 0' failed. 15:08 xyz after I disconnected all the bots with killall 15:08 sapier I haven't implemented disconnect handling yet 15:10 sapier guess that's gonna be necessary for usefull testing 15:12 xyz can't find anything related in profiler log 15:12 xyz tcp thread seems to take the most time according to it, yet there are no tcp clients connected 15:13 sapier hmm tcp thread uses 50 ms timeout for beeing able to stop the thread 15:13 sapier maybe timeout setting is wrong 15:13 xyz well I guess you'll be able to profile it 15:16 sapier do you still have the lag you mentioned yesterday in tcp? 15:20 xyz no 15:22 sapier ok good 15:22 sapier but we still don't have a way to test it 15:22 sapier did you try 100 clients with legacy and tcp too? 15:24 xyz well why won't you do that? I can, of course 15:25 sapier because I don't have any idea how you did it, as far as I know master(and threrefor my branch) doesn't contain the no head fixes 15:26 xyz uh, I just merged your another branch into this 15:26 sapier this did work? 15:26 xyz why wouldn't it? 15:26 xyz of course it did 15:27 sapier would've expected this to mess up a lots of things 15:30 xyz why would it mess anything up? I think changes are in separate files 15:30 sapier sometimes I'd wish to know what you want xyz, do you want to improve minetest or do you want it to die in favor of freeminer ... or something completely different ;-) 15:30 xyz not sure what did you mean by this 15:31 xyz anyway, I've made a simple test: run 100 bots with proller's spawn.pl, then connect one "normal" client to run around and watch what's happening 15:31 xyz TCP seems to fail it because I can't connect with that normal client 15:31 sapier obviously you don't provide improvements for minetest the last weeks, reengeneering them from freeminer is often as much work as finding them without your previous work ... that's not bound to protocol things 15:32 sapier I do not say you don't do improvements ... just not for minetest directly 15:34 xyz same goes for enet 15:34 xyz I won't even bother testing legacy 15:34 xyz well it's not like I was doing anything interesting last weeks 15:34 xyz except maybe the colored chat 15:35 sapier I tested legacy up to 50 clients it did work without any issues ... after that my pc didn't have cpu power left for additional clients 15:35 xyz yes, and for other changes (some random improvements) I did provide links to commits here 15:36 xyz and I was told that colored chat should be done properly by hmmmm I think 15:36 sapier you know as good as I know that links in here will only bee seen if repeated at least 20 times ;-) 15:36 xyz well then what should I do? 15:37 celeron55 make an issue on github or a wiki page and collect them there i guess 15:37 xyz alright 15:37 xyz I'll go with issue on github then 15:37 sapier in best case just file a pull request ... of course I understand this is additional work for you doing main development for freeminer 15:38 xyz indeed, I'd prefer to not do it since I'll be asked to rebase it anyway after a week or so 15:39 xyz hmm.. so I guess the only thing that could be valuable is ABM stuff 15:42 xyz okay, submitted #1082 15:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1082 15:42 sapier thanks! :-) 15:43 xyz unrelated, but I think that this bot should at least post issue title or something ^ ShadowNinja 15:44 sapier does irc support href style links? (showing title but connecting to url on clicking) 15:44 xyz no 15:45 xyz but we can shorten them, using git.io or so 15:46 sapier good idea 15:47 sapier argh that damn intel parallels studio is 3.2gb ... I'm on a 6mbit "broadband" line ;-) 15:58 xyz you don't have to download the whole thing 15:59 xyz there's "network downloader" or whatever it's called which lets you select the parts you need 16:18 sapier I don't usually use online installs because you can't reinstall later 16:19 sapier why the hell can't thos guys just provide a http/ftp mirror instead of some godamn active download provider not beening able to resume a download 16:22 xyz it seems buildcraft, all its "clones" and the developer is gone from android play store 16:36 ShadowNinja xyz: #123 16:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/123 -- Make ladders an attached node by ShadowNinja · Pull Request #123 · minetest/minetest_game · GitHub 16:36 xyz you didn't even try 16:37 xyz that's just a title; you could've included issue name, open/closed state, tags, number of comments, short url 16:38 ShadowNinja Well that involves writing a whole plugin that uses the GitHub API, this is just !web title. 16:41 xyz or you can just parse some html; anyway, that's not really important 16:41 ShadowNinja It seems Google got our request. Now let's get our own version out. :-) 16:41 kahrl the last three parts are really redundant, can those be stripped at least? 16:42 ShadowNinja Maybe... 16:49 sapier I really wonder how to do a 50 client test my pc is maxed out at 10 :-( 16:49 sapier not server but all the running clients 16:51 OWNSyouAll you using headless clients? 16:52 sapier yes 16:53 xyz what do you mean by "maxed out"? 16:54 sapier each client consumes 20% cpu load 16:54 sapier so 10 clients --->2 cores for clients used 16:54 sapier 1 core is completely used by graphics client ... and 1 is left for server 16:55 sapier don't have more then 4 cores ;-) 16:56 sapier server (without included graphics client) could distribute to 3 cores (2 for enet) ... but of course I can't test this if there's not even a single core available ;-) 17:12 xyz ShadowNinja: I 17:12 xyz ShadowNinja: I'm afraid getting our version out will take a bit of time 17:13 ShadowNinja :-| 17:14 iqualfragile /r/ing function returning a list of all generated mapblocks 17:14 sapier hmmmm is that information available without reading whole map? 17:15 hmmmm not that i'm aware of.. you need to make a custom query to get all keys 17:16 ShadowNinja sqlite3 map.sqlite 'SELECT pos FROM blocks;' 17:16 sapier doesn't sound like a lightweight operation? 17:16 iqualfragile sapier: its not 17:17 xyz iqualfragile: what do you need it for? 17:18 iqualfragile for sapier to implement some function for respawning mobspawnentities after some idiot might have accidentially /clearallobjects the whole map 17:18 sapier I'm not sure this is the right way to do it (but of course it's a way to do it) 17:19 xyz idiot? clearobjects? accidentally? 17:20 ShadowNinja clearobjects isn't usually accidental, I want the entities gone. 17:21 iqualfragile i accidentally /clearallobjects the whole map 17:21 sapier removing all the spawning entities too ;-) 17:22 xyz uhh, that sounds like a hack 17:23 sapier quite ... spawning entities are "active objects" that might move to server in a later step of evolution 17:23 sapier actually client doesn't need to know anything about them 17:24 xyz I think what you need is an api method to get all loaded blocks 17:24 xyz or, better, callbacks on block load/unload 17:25 sapier could be used for regenerating the spawners too ... but cause permanent load 17:25 xyz nah, you won't need spawners this way 17:26 ShadowNinja Block load callbacks have been proposed many times. 17:26 nore xyz, I want those callbacks too 17:26 sapier xyz no the on load callbacks don't replace the spawners 17:26 xyz why won't they? 17:26 sapier because they won't trigger spawning if a block keeps active 17:27 xyz you maintain the list of interesting to you positions (spawn points), this list gets updated on block load/unload; then you can spawn mobs in on step callback 17:27 sapier processing that list is one big loop causing lag 17:28 xyz then you do it in the way that doesn't require processing of the whole list at once 17:28 sapier of course I can always add features in lua I get for free on using a spawner entity ;-) 17:29 xyz which is crude and ugly hack D: 17:29 sapier no it isn't 17:29 xyz and the engine anyway does the same thing 17:29 nore yes it is 17:30 sapier no it isn't a hack why to implement thousands of different ways to do performance quotaing? you can't even imagine sideeffects of every quota mechanism trying to be smarter then the above one 17:30 sapier not talking about the overhead caused by doing the quotaing 17:31 xyz it's a hack because I don't think entities were supposed to be used this way 17:31 xyz there are other hacks that make use of entities 17:31 xyz i.e. my signs mod, which displays text 17:31 sapier so what exactly do you think entities are supposed to be used for? 17:33 kaeza anything meant to be dynamic 17:34 sapier please define "dynamic" 17:34 kaeza I don't think signs' text or spawners fall into that category 17:34 kaeza moving objects 17:35 kaeza (but in the case of signs, there's no other way as you can't modify individual nodes at runtime) 17:35 sapier so once something stops moving it's not supposed to be a entity? 17:35 xyz those that interact with player? or the other way around 17:36 sapier that's why I said in long run thespawners should evolve to not beeing sent to client ;-) 17:36 sapier there's just no other lua active_object then entities right now 17:40 sapier but till then imho entities are way more clean then reimlementing active objects by global onsteps 17:40 sapier btw aren't blocks kept in memory as long as possible? 17:42 sapier ShadowNinja: is the serverlist issue fixed? 17:45 ShadowNinja sapier: No, it isn't. 17:54 sapier is anyone investigating this issue? 18:20 RealBadAngel offtopic, ive played mc pe and buildcraft a bit 18:20 RealBadAngel controls for both are pain in the ass 18:20 RealBadAngel it lacks LMB/RMB on the right side of the screen IMHO 18:21 xyz inb4 our very own control scheme which of course will be better than both and everybody will love it 18:22 RealBadAngel how different from above? 18:22 xyz I found minecraft pe control scheme okay, what's wrong with it? 18:22 RealBadAngel unable to light tnt with torch for example 18:23 RealBadAngel simply, theres no LMB/RMB 18:23 RealBadAngel or at least nothing intuitive 18:24 xyz light tnt with torch? 18:24 RealBadAngel make it "kaboom" 18:25 RealBadAngel touching it just digs it 18:25 xyz "In Minecraft Pocket Edition, you can only use flint and steel to ignite TNT" 18:25 RealBadAngel oops ;) 18:26 RealBadAngel anyway the controls feels just wrong 18:26 RealBadAngel left hand is almost unused 18:26 xyz so what do you suggest? 18:26 RealBadAngel also right hand covers jump for example 18:26 xyz uhhh? 18:27 RealBadAngel right hand should be used only for movement 18:27 xyz how comes 18:27 RealBadAngel left for lmb/rmb/jump 18:27 RealBadAngel you simply cannot see the buttons when having fingers above 18:28 xyz what game are you talking about now? 18:28 RealBadAngel and its almost impossible to move and jump at the same time 18:28 RealBadAngel mc pe and buildcraft 18:28 RealBadAngel they share same schema 18:28 xyz no 18:28 xyz they use totally different schemes 18:29 RealBadAngel not really, arrows and jump in the middle 18:29 xyz and still, no 18:29 xyz in MCPE you hold your finger on the FORWARD button 18:29 xyz and when you need to jump you just move it to the jump button and then back 18:30 xyz and it also autojumps so I don't see any problem here 18:30 RealBadAngel hmmz, i think im too used to keyoard and mouse then ;) 18:30 RealBadAngel havent figured that out 18:30 xyz yes 18:30 xyz you should stop thinking about just adding mouse and keyboard since that won't work 18:31 RealBadAngel but still, adding 2 action buttons on the left could be a good idea 18:31 xyz what buttons? 18:31 RealBadAngel lmb/rmb 18:31 xyz alright, so let me ask this 18:31 xyz did you play MC PE? 18:32 RealBadAngel a bit 18:32 xyz I see 18:32 xyz you should give it another try 18:32 RealBadAngel ok i will 18:32 xyz first, there's no cursor on the screen 18:32 xyz you just tap wherever you want to place a block 18:34 xyz second, I don't think we should have left/right mouse button concept here at all 18:34 xyz we should have dig, place, punch, rightclick (blame the one who has chosen this name) 18:37 xyz short tap: place, long tap: dig, double tap: punch, short tap: rightclick (for items that can be rightclicked, otherwise — place) 18:37 xyz for entities we should of course do punch on short tap 18:41 RealBadAngel this short/long single/double is a bit confusing 18:41 RealBadAngel i would rather prefer a button 18:41 xyz how long have you been using touch screen device(s)? 18:44 xyz and then, if you suggest adding a button does that mean that you suggest adding a cursor? like in buildcraft 18:45 RealBadAngel not for long, i bought a tablet a few days ago 18:45 RealBadAngel and i find controls in most of apps very unconfortable 18:46 celeron55 touchscreen sucks, but that's what you have when you want to have a device that has nothing but a screen 18:46 celeron55 there are android devices with other controls too for gaming 18:46 RealBadAngel first of all most of them assumes one hand 18:47 xyz please answer my question: and then, if you suggest adding a button does that mean that you suggest adding a cursor? like in buildcraft 18:47 RealBadAngel i suggest left hand being able to move cursor/use action buttons 18:48 xyz so you're suggesting to have cursor; alright, got it 18:48 xyz I'm not going to implement this sort of controls but you can use my branch as a start for yours 18:48 RealBadAngel thats why i bought the tablet in fact ;) 18:49 celeron55 i'm having immensely hard time trying to get the virtual keyboard on the sailfish os to pop up; that thing is ridiculously undocumented 18:50 celeron55 they have an implementation for qt's input system for it and just say "oh yeah you can use this via raw d-bus too; just do the same things", and then the same things give no error but no effect either 18:50 xyz I think we shouldn't just have virtual keyboard pop up, we need a dialog with editbox' 18:50 xyz at least, on Android; but I guess same goes for any mobile os 18:51 xyz same os with a virtual keyboard, because it can overlap the input box 18:51 xyz s/same/any/ 18:51 celeron55 yes, probably 18:52 RealBadAngel is compilation process dificult for apks? 18:52 xyz RealBadAngel: in my branch you only have to grab the NDK, export ANDROID_NDK_ROOT to point at it and run build.sh 18:52 xyz and if you're lucky then that's all 18:52 celeron55 this contains xyz's freeminer android patches ported to minetest: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/tree/sailfish 18:53 celeron55 (in addition to my stuff for sailfish) 18:53 xyz if you aren't then you'll have to debug the thing 18:53 RealBadAngel xyz, it would be good to have some info on compiling for android added to main doc 18:53 celeron55 it's basically a personal backup of mine though, so don't expect non-edited commit history 18:53 RealBadAngel same as compiling for linux 18:54 xyz it's freeminer, it's not merged anywhere yet 18:55 xyz my personal branch too; do you expect it to be documented? you have an automated build script, that's all I was able to do to make your life easier 18:55 celeron55 xyz: if we had an input dialog, then i'd probably just implement an optional crappy irrlicht buttons-based virtual keyboard on it for my usage 18:55 xyz celeron55: awful 18:56 RealBadAngel btw, i just thought bout one thing. since functionality for PE and PC will differ a lot, is it wise to have both in one tree? or maybe keep PE repository next to main one? 18:56 celeron55 yeah; it would be just for platforms that don't work yet 8) 18:56 celeron55 RealBadAngel: they don't differ a lot at all 18:57 xyz celeron55: anyway, I guess it would be good if you could send your patches to irrlicht some day 18:57 RealBadAngel what about shaders etc? 18:58 xyz ahahaha 18:58 xyz oh wait 18:58 xyz currently light doesn't work at all 19:00 celeron55 yeah, the vertex color based lighting doesn't work with ogles1 fixed pipeline nor does our shaders 19:05 celeron55 i haven't investigated why though 19:06 celeron55 but ideally irrlicht should make the vertex colors work; it doesn't seem like it should be a problem 19:26 celeron55 xyz: what about the android patches? 19:26 xyz what about those? 19:26 celeron55 do the irrlicht devs know about those 19:26 xyz yes http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49410 19:26 xyz I'll fix some stuff and update them some day 21:07 proller https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Kevin.de 21:17 celeron55 lol 22:08 sapier come on those intel guys are joking parallel studio 2013 is not 64bit ready?