Time Nick Message 04:40 ShadowNinja thexyz, celeron55: IMO devs should have the +o flag in here, and maybe others, rather than just +AVt. 04:47 ShadowNinja +ir too. 05:30 celeron55 ShadowNinja: why? also what even is +ir? 05:31 celeron55 (i don't know how freenode is supposed to work, i'm an IRCnet guy) 09:36 Exio4 celeron55: +i = allows /cs invite in case the channel becomes +i (other way: +I list), +r == that would allow them to use unban (other way: +e lists) 11:43 celeron55 ShadowNinja, Exio4: i think i'll see what thexyz has to say 11:47 proller celeron55, merging 99% frozen 8( 11:54 celeron55 ShadowNinja: in any case i don't think devs should waste their time moderating IRC or anything else like that 17:43 nore could someone look at this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/946 17:45 celeron55 hmmh, the activity of core devs is really low currently 17:45 celeron55 maybe i should rotate these positions a bit 8) 17:47 celeron55 here goes: anyone is free to vote for somebody to be a core dev; self-votes are disallowed 17:47 celeron55 and votes are weighted based on presuppositions, racism and other politically incorrect things 17:51 proller core devs must be selected from Active Conributors 17:51 nore can #946 be merged? RBA said he was ok with it, and hmmmm said he was ok if someone else was... 17:52 proller looks ok 17:52 celeron55 it can be merged; it's more of a problem with people being lazy 17:52 celeron55 than merging it being a problem 8) 17:52 nore so, can someone merge it please? 17:53 celeron55 it would be easier if we allowed the commit history get tangled with github merge commits, but i respect PilzAdam's and other people's dislike of those 17:53 proller i can merge 17:53 nore thanks 17:53 nore oh, and will #688 be merged? 17:53 proller +1 for github one button merge 17:54 nore there were 2 core devs agreeing too, but no one merged... 17:54 proller merge commits can be grep -v when reading 17:54 kaeza merge comits clutter up history 17:54 kaeza better to avoid 17:54 celeron55 why doesn't github allow merging with rebase 17:55 kaeza ^ 17:55 celeron55 the merge commit crap is ridiculous 17:55 celeron55 personally i would use it, but only because rebases are not available 17:56 celeron55 it's like choosing whether to eat old shoes or dead cats if you're starving 17:56 kaeza lol 17:56 proller history is not goal 17:56 kaeza it's fine for small projects, but once you have tons of single-commit pull requests it gets messy 17:57 proller you can filter history 17:57 nore proller: and #688, can it be merged too? 17:57 celeron55 could we implement a script that would be invoked like ./mergepull.sh 946 and it would rebase that pull and make it ready to be pushed 17:58 nore I reckon celeron55 was ok a few month ago, and RBA was ok too before... 17:58 celeron55 and publish it in wiki or something so that everyone who wants has it 17:58 celeron55 nore: i haven't looked at 688 17:59 nore haven't you? you said you were ok with it a few months ago 17:59 celeron55 well at least i don't remember anything 8) 17:59 proller 688 done 17:59 nore (I can't find the IRC log, though) 17:59 celeron55 proller: ... 18:00 celeron55 proller: this is NOT a competition about who merges pulls with least justification 18:00 proller for auto merging need to get branch name from github 18:00 celeron55 proller: you didn't have the permission of anyone else than yourself for that 18:01 proller i can revert 18:01 celeron55 you can merge like thousand rockets, but only if every rule is followed 18:04 proller Jul 31 20:58:28 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/688 this seems to be ready to merge 18:05 celeron55 fine then, hopefully it doesn't have problems 18:07 proller for getting more devs need to increase popularity 18:08 proller https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/952 - week 8( 18:08 celeron55 i think this actually is a working implementation of mergepull.sh 8): https://gist.github.com/celeron55/7012185 18:10 celeron55 we don't just need more devs; we need more devs that are good 18:10 celeron55 but good devs rarely come unless there is some proper goal 18:12 proller but any dev will scare 1-2-9 moths waiting merge 18:13 celeron55 yes; goals are a way to solve that 18:13 celeron55 because if there is a goal, then it is easy to tell whether a merge suits that goal or not 18:13 NakedFury is there a goal right now? 18:14 celeron55 currently we have to kind of see for a long time what kind of interests builds upon a merge and what people seem to think they could get out of it before we can tell if it's good or not 18:14 celeron55 NakedFury: not really 18:16 celeron55 some devs like hmmmm have their personal goals, but nothing project-wide 18:16 NakedFury right now there are dev specific goals like RBA working on his shader thing. HMM working on the map gen but not a yeah ^^^ 18:18 celeron55 well-thought suggestions are welcome; people can even mail them to me personally, i don't mind 18:18 celeron55 it is in my largest interests to find some common ground for this project 18:18 proller celeron55, i cant finish liquid and weather thing, 2.5 months of waiting 18:18 celeron55 but i don't dare to just whip up something and try to feed it to people 18:18 proller and in master now anything broken 18:21 celeron55 on the other hand we have some long-standing technical issues that prevent people doing things 18:21 celeron55 namely the crappy entity system 18:22 celeron55 everyone would absolutely love it if somebody somehow crammed it into usable shape 18:22 proller falling nodes ? 18:22 proller or what entity 18:22 celeron55 the thing that is supposed to support animals, monsters and whatever 18:24 nore has anyone been able to find where the entity duplication bug is from? 18:26 proller for animals and monsters must be something highly adjustable in core 18:26 celeron55 nore: no, not that anyone has even seriously tried i guess 18:26 celeron55 the mess is mostly made by me but i'm scared too 8) 18:29 celeron55 what is even known about it? 18:30 celeron55 does it happen for every kind of entities? 18:32 nore Yes, IIRC (at least, both items and mobs...) 18:33 celeron55 the first step to debugging it would be to know a way to reproduce it 18:34 nore what is known is that it happens when entities cross block boundaries 18:34 celeron55 at least it's not reproducible by just dropping an item and leaving for a moment 18:34 nore and there are loadings/unloadings 18:34 proller celeron55, maybe place top5 current servers to main page? 18:34 celeron55 proller: maybe not distract this debugging 18:36 nore celeron55, I had an idea where the bug could lie once: 18:37 nore in environment.cpp, when an object is moved, it is deleted in the old block 18:37 kaeza it also happens with dropped items sometimes 18:37 nore however, if it is not found, it is not deleted 18:37 kaeza I've seen it happen when a mod error occurs 18:39 kaeza to give an example, a mod creates an entity, and as soon as it is creates, on_step() generates an error, then on next start, there are two entities there 18:39 nore is it reproducible? 18:40 kaeza hmm... does not seem reproducible though; it happens intermittently 18:41 celeron55 yeah, this really needs a case where it always happens 18:41 PilzAdam celeron55, a way to reproduce the duplication: get into a UFO, fly away so the chunk gets unloaded, get back and there waits a second UFO for you 18:42 nore I guess this could have something to do with client knowing/not knowing the object 18:44 kaeza so it seems to happen on (un)load; not if the entity is just there 18:45 kaeza by "(un)load" I mean, wherever entities are added to the list to track 18:46 nore I have another idea: 18:46 nore the object could be pending_deactivation, and then deactivateFarObjects is called with force_delete = true 18:47 nore the object is then 2 times statically stored in the block 18:47 nore could it be that? 18:49 nore (line 1799 of environment.cpp) 18:49 nore anyway, gtg 18:49 nore bye 19:10 VanessaE celeron55: another way to guarantee repeating the entity dupe issue: Install homedecor, place a few signs and put some text on them. Leave the area and come back after the area has been unloaded. 19:10 celeron55 PilzAdam: that sounds like a good way, i guess i have to try 19:11 VanessaE (homedecor redefines default signs using code by pilzadam and thexyz, such that it uses an entity to display the text) 19:20 VanessaE celeron55, can we please get a feature added soon to disable the wield item extrusion code? I.e. to render all items as flat or cubes or nodeboxes only? 19:22 celeron55 umm... yes, as long as somebody codes it? 8) 19:25 VanessaE heh 19:25 VanessaE wield meshes are getting...er...unwieldy lately in HDX :) 19:27 VanessaE like, this image: https://raw.github.com/VanessaE/hdx-256/master/mushroom_spore.png 19:27 celeron55 oh dog 19:28 VanessaE yeah :) 19:28 VanessaE anyway, that's offtopic. 19:39 celeron55 "SeverEnvironment" hmm 19:39 celeron55 oh, actually sewer has a 'w' 19:41 celeron55 i'm looking at a log about me flying away with a UFO and coming back 19:41 celeron55 this thing is just silly 19:42 celeron55 while re-loading the blocks it's like "oh yeah i remember there was a UFO here, i wonder where it went; well i'll just put a UFO here because that seems right" 19:44 kaeza maybe nore is right 19:45 kaeza the data is serialized twice 19:45 celeron55 well that's before it's even saved 19:45 celeron55 obviously it then saves both of the resulting UFOs but anyway 19:47 kaeza it seems ServerObjectList::serialize() iterates thru 2 lists: m_stored and m_active. it relies on the caller to manage them properly (remove from active when stored) 19:47 kaeza unless I got that wrong 19:47 celeron55 umm yes 19:48 celeron55 the two lists aren't really directly related to this 19:49 celeron55 or, kind of are 19:51 celeron55 when an object is active, it should be on the active list instead of stored list 19:54 celeron55 either the UFO doesn't get moved from the stored list to the active list, or alternatively stuff from the active list is being restored into the world... umm... actually the stored and active lists are merged when they are serialized to disk 19:55 celeron55 hmm yeah, this surely has a design flaw 19:56 celeron55 i think i can manage this somehow 19:58 celeron55 just before a block is being unloaded, the content of the active list should be moved to the blocks in which the entities actually are at that moment 19:59 celeron55 or something functionally similar should happen 19:59 celeron55 in such a way that the active list is always empty when the block is being saved 19:59 celeron55 umm... i mean, unloaded 20:23 ShadowNinja celeron55: With 77 pulls and counting we definitely need more devs, but how should the nominations be managed? Perhaps a page on the dev wiki? And should people add themselves and be voted on or should they have to be nominated? That would involve people that don't accept the nomination to be removed. 20:26 sapier1 I've been busy some time too but what about organizing some sort of meeting to work through that list? 20:28 ShadowNinja Also: Who can vote/nominate? Current developers? Active contributors? All contributors? All active users? 20:29 * troller for active contributors 20:30 troller like sapier1 20:30 * ShadowNinja too 20:30 ShadowNinja As in I vote for active contributors, although the other also applies. 20:31 ShadowNinja The current devs will have a veto I suppose. 20:31 celeron55 working through lists of pull requests is not a problem if people knew what the goal is 20:31 celeron55 you don't solve development management problems by throwing more developers at those problems 20:31 celeron55 it just doesn't work 20:31 sapier1 I assume goal is to either merge, reject or request additional work at a pull request right? 20:32 celeron55 eh 20:32 ShadowNinja celeron55: One issue is that it is very dificult to get two devs to agree to something and then actuall push it. 20:32 celeron55 ShadowNinja: yes, that is solved by having a project goal 20:32 ShadowNinja +y 20:32 celeron55 then they can just look at if the pull is towards the goal 20:32 NakedFury well you can start with making the first goal towards 0.5.0 20:33 sapier1 ok so someone or some groupe has to define that goals first ;-) 20:33 ShadowNinja Fun game that runns well on old/slow hardware? 20:33 sapier1 -e 20:33 NakedFury after that first goal the devs all vote or create a new project wide goal 20:33 troller ShadowNinja, need to define "slow" 20:33 sfan5 "fun game" is not very specific 20:34 ShadowNinja Any better ideas? 20:34 NakedFury my fun game is not your fun game 20:34 sapier1 ShadowNinja you just made two major mistakes "well" and "old/slow" hardware ... both not beeing specified 20:34 troller game must be intresting 20:34 ShadowNinja sapier1: Yes, that whole sentence is very vauge, I know. 20:34 VanessaE I'd define "slow" as 1GHz or less, 1 or 2 cores. 20:34 troller intresting to explore 20:35 sapier1 correct we'd need some reference system to check against e.g. run at 1GHz single core with geforce2 and 1GB ram at 20fps 20:35 troller need to finish android port... 20:35 ShadowNinja >2ghz 2 cores could be the "Runs well" specs. 20:36 VanessaE perhaps, yeah 20:36 NakedFury could a development Goal be something like: work on the introduction of a replacement for entities system so the future inclusion of players, mobs, items not slow down the game? 20:36 ShadowNinja NakedFury: How about just the TODO. ;-) 20:37 sapier1 nakedfury that's like create a car that doesn't consume any sort of energy to move around 20:37 NakedFury its an example a goal that all developers can agree on 20:37 troller ++mobs in core (but smart) 20:38 ShadowNinja But a TODO item isn't really a goal. 20:38 sapier1 troller "mobs" is a vague thing too 20:38 sapier1 we already have mobs ... entities have everything a mob requires 20:38 NakedFury Goal: overhaul of messaging system, graphical user interface system, and admin interaction with server. ? 20:38 VanessaE sapier1: except the AI. 20:38 celeron55 hmm, you're kind of getting stuck in small details 20:38 sapier1 yes 20:38 celeron55 how about some big things 20:39 ShadowNinja The whole entity system needs work,as c55 said. 20:39 sapier1 but AI can't be done without cpu power ;-) 20:39 troller optimize network to handle 100+ players per server 20:39 ShadowNinja NakedFury: Still just things for a TODO IMO. 20:39 NakedFury dammit 20:39 ShadowNinja troller: That's a bit high, but definitely >16. 20:40 troller now with 10 very big lags and 100% cpu use 20:40 sapier1 and yes the entitiy system is flawed ... the way they are stored is quite strange 20:40 sapier1 it's explainable by history but doesn't really fit to entities that move themselfes 20:41 VanessaE celeron55: the problem is each of us has some "big thing" that's important to us 20:41 celeron55 VanessaE: more like medium-sized thing 20:41 VanessaE get enough of those together and you have the same morass we have now with "details" 20:41 celeron55 but yes, each person has that 20:41 troller stat system can be fun (count anything perl player) 20:42 VanessaE medium-size, granted 20:42 sapier1 and unless we "sit together" and priorize those issues we won't sort out that mess :-) 20:42 celeron55 i probably need to get back to my dictator role enough to lay down some sentence defining what minetest is supposed to be 20:43 sapier1 either dictate or moderate by forcing ppl to decide 20:43 ShadowNinja But what is a goal? Is it just a prioritized TODO item? What is our ultimate goal? 20:43 celeron55 otherwise it's going to develop into some cthulhu-like mess 20:44 celeron55 (or, more like develop into nothing, as development stays slow) 20:44 sapier1 celeron55 you know all major oss projects have some sort of dictator ;-) 20:44 sapier1 if you don't like the word gate keeper may be more friendly 20:47 VanessaE Some folks [citation needed] have claimed MT lacks scalability. 20:48 VanessaE seems to me that part of an ultimate goal should include that. 20:48 celeron55 what the crap is wrong with these UFOs, they get stuck in mid-air all the time 20:48 VanessaE celeron55: also related to entity dupes. 20:48 celeron55 no it isn't 20:49 VanessaE this is a known bug with hovercrafts anyway - the duplicated object is hitting a wall somewhere. 20:49 VanessaE you move one, both move. it's weird and totally non-intuitive. 20:49 celeron55 there is no duplicated object 20:49 VanessaE or wait, I guess you mean vertically stuck, rather than horizontally? 20:49 celeron55 horizontally 20:49 VanessaE hm 20:50 celeron55 it's like the server didn't have the block loaded... which probably is what it is 20:50 sapier1 I realized that issue when driving monorails too ... most time I found a duplicated cart right after it happened 20:50 celeron55 but it's very slow in getting to loading it 20:50 VanessaE oh right, that might be the case then 20:50 celeron55 sapier1: that and duplication are not related 20:51 VanessaE I tend to forget that a block of just air is still a block that has to be loaded. 20:52 sapier1 at least it happens in same situations as duplication occurs ... of course that doesn't imply any causal relationship 20:52 celeron55 that it does 20:53 celeron55 (because duplication occurs at block unload/load cycle) 20:53 Sokomine hovercrafts seem to have special problems with that. better take other entities for testing 20:54 Exio4 ShadowNinja: 2ghz doesn't mean the same thing in different computers 20:54 sapier1 hmm I guess I may be somehow guilty about that duplication issue as I fixed the entity loss issue ... maybe that fix triggers a duplication somewhere 20:54 ShadowNinja Exio4: Yes, GHZ isn't a really good rating of CPUs any more unfourtunately. 20:55 Sokomine doesn't matter who's guilty. it's just important that it gets fixed :-) 20:55 ShadowNinja "A scalable server" sounds like a good goal. 20:56 sapier1 I'm just a little bit confused as I didn't realize the situation celeron describes when I added that fix 20:56 celeron55 i seemed to fix the duplication problem but i'm getting some weird warnings so this is going to take some time 20:57 celeron55 sapier1: what did you do back then? 20:57 ShadowNinja But do you think we need more devs? 20:57 sapier1 I'd have to look up but as far as I know the issue was a client did remove a entity from it's worls while server kept it active 20:58 sapier1 if player returned to that block the entity was still active for the server so wasn't sent to client 20:58 ShadowNinja Is the dev wiki a good place to manage that? Should it be nominations or voting? 20:59 celeron55 ShadowNinja: let me think about it some days 21:01 Sokomine ah yes: sample of item duplication on a server (this time menches 0.4.xer): http://mg.viewskew.com/u/sokomine/m/screenshot-3845000104/ 21:01 celeron55 i think that minetest doesn't need more devs than now (even less would do just fine); it needs devs that are reasonably active and who focus on a well selected set of goals 21:02 Sokomine or here, from linuxgaming: http://mg.viewskew.com/u/sokomine/m/objektstapel 21:02 Sokomine those where all normal items/itemstacks that where dropped/left lying by players. usually do not move around apart from initial drop. it appeared that they where "sinking" into the ground 21:03 ShadowNinja This issue needs some work. The bug is confirmed and not obscure, and the thing to fix is find_spawnpos(Or whatever it is called). https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/953 21:03 sapier1 I found the pull the change I added was removing a object from active list in deactivateFarObjects and move it to static_objects list 21:03 sapier1 https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commit/0ac74f36e2599116897f3e27ca973162a8dbbe3f 21:10 celeron55 https://gist.github.com/celeron55/7014947 21:11 celeron55 somebody try that; if it doesn't seem to break anything, i'll push it 21:11 celeron55 you can try it in any situations where you previously could cause entity duplication 21:12 celeron55 (also it's a good idea to see if any entities are lost) 21:13 sapier1 I check the loss I know how a simple case where this occured before 21:14 celeron55 ShadowNinja: the screenshot has version 0.3.1 21:14 celeron55 it's known to have horrible spawning 21:15 celeron55 of course in case of lua mapgens, it can happen in 0.4 too; it can be improved but not perfectly solved 21:16 ShadowNinja celeron55: Then it should be closed with a note to use a more recent version. 21:17 Sokomine does applying the patch to the server only help? guess it has to be changed there? those issues mostly occour on multiplayer-servers 21:17 ShadowNinja VanessaE: May want to try ^. 21:18 Sokomine alerted her already 21:18 celeron55 it's a server-side patch 21:20 hmmmm celeron, I do have a project-wide goal but so far I haven't been able to get anything done with it 21:21 hmmmm (that is, the client-side lua api) 21:21 VanessaE ok I'll try it 21:21 VanessaE sorry, I was afk 21:21 sapier1 me too hmmm ;-) 21:22 hmmmm work keeping you busy? 21:22 sapier1 celeron55 entities don't seem to get los on deactivation 21:22 sapier1 yes hmmmm I haven't started the client side lua thing besides some theoretical thoughts. Imho it's post 0.4.8 and there's some work to be done for 0.4.8 21:24 VanessaE ok, proposed the entity dupe fix has been deployed to my servers. I suppose a /clearobjects is in order also? 21:24 celeron55 well it doesn't get rid of previously duplicated objects 21:24 ShadowNinja ^ Agreed, we have to actually release that. 21:25 sapier1 there's some polishing to be done to modstore prior release of 0.4.8 21:25 ShadowNinja #923 and #925 need to be merged first, also #856. 21:25 Sokomine i'll try to duplicate sheep on vanessas server then. though those might use a diffrent mechanism 21:26 VanessaE my servers are busy with /clearobjects 21:26 VanessaE but feel free, once they wake up :P 21:33 celeron55 ShadowNinja: no they don't 21:35 celeron55 the uppermost of these is the only thing that blocks 0.4.8 from happening: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues?milestone=1&state=open 21:36 celeron55 but as that list shows, the weather stuff probably needs to be sorted out before too 21:36 troller weather in master now 16384% broken 21:36 ShadowNinja celeron55: 925 has to be merged before 0.4.8 or risk breaking the API, #923 has to be merged or there will be users complaining of untraceable bugs. 21:37 VanessaE I side with shadow, those three commits are needed 21:37 VanessaE s/commits/pulls/ 21:38 ShadowNinja #856 isn't quite as mandatory, but it is important and has already been agreed to. 21:38 celeron55 856 is half-designed 21:38 celeron55 it can't be merged before really thinking it through 21:38 ShadowNinja half-designed? 21:38 celeron55 if you read the linked discussion there fully, you get the idea 21:39 celeron55 because... eh, merging it would risk breaking the API, as you say it 21:39 troller i want to merge my small and tested pulls before too: #956 #952 #897 #895 21:40 ShadowNinja celeron55: Oh, 925 you mean? Any mods that used the metatables can be updated and work with ever version of the vector functions. 21:40 celeron55 ShadowNinja: 856 21:40 ShadowNinja celeron55: 856 won't break the API. 21:41 celeron55 it will have to be broken in the future because it's half-designed 21:41 ShadowNinja celeron55: Half-designed? How so? How can it be fixed? 21:42 celeron55 it can be fixed by designing it taking into account everything, as described in the lengthy discussion linked there 21:42 celeron55 just ignore it for now 21:42 celeron55 the vector stuff seems very arguable 21:43 celeron55 the speed can be improved by just not constructing the metatable again every time but using one that is allocated only once at load time 21:43 celeron55 the sanity checks are good 21:43 ShadowNinja celeron55: I made all the changes that I noticed in the discussion that you linked, re-check the diff. 21:45 sapier1 897 who shall review > 20 commits with comments as speaking as "4" or "works" or "better"?? 21:46 troller dont look to commits 21:46 troller look at changed files 21:46 troller its for squash 21:46 troller https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/897/files 21:47 celeron55 ShadowNinja: so have you considered it for entities? 21:47 celeron55 ShadowNinja: how does the interface suit that? 21:47 ShadowNinja celeron55: minetest.is_protected(vector.round(pos)) in the apropriate function. 21:48 ShadowNinja celeron55: Just override on_drop or whatever. 21:48 sapier1 ok way more easy but why don't you just squash it ... with thos comments they're worth nothing ;-) 21:48 celeron55 ShadowNinja: how do protection mods usually implement is_protected? do they check what the actual node's content is at the position? 21:48 celeron55 ShadowNinja: if so, how can they check what the actual object is if it's not a node? 21:49 celeron55 ShadowNinja: i'm talking about eg. punching entities 21:49 troller sapier1, because it waiting more than month, it need to be updated sometimes, or maybe fixing something - and need to be squashed after every commit 21:49 celeron55 i really have no time for this at the moment 21:50 ShadowNinja celeron55: Some check the area for a particular node(A protection node, a node played by the player, etc) some check a table(areas, node_ownership, landclaim, landrush) 21:50 celeron55 i should have been sleeping for at least an hour already 21:50 ShadowNinja celeron55: The entity position is rounded to a node position and the protection is applied there. 21:51 sapier1 I don't squash all commits either troller but >20 is quite a large amount ;-) 21:51 ShadowNinja The only thing I can think of adding is support for checking if a area between two positions is protected. 21:51 celeron55 ShadowNinja: your api description (and maybe other things) talks about node placement and digging, while in fact it can be any kind of interaction 21:51 sapier1 what does the comment "now limited to 6.4" mean in GetNextBlocks? 21:52 ShadowNinja celeron55: Well that is the most common use of it. 21:52 troller sapier1, now maximum falling speed limited 21:52 celeron55 ShadowNinja: but if a protection mod expects it to be a node and it gets a position of an entity, it'll output stuff like "player tried to dig air" 21:52 celeron55 ShadowNinja: it's wrong 21:52 sapier1 any reason why it's 6.4 not 7.2 or 9.1? 21:53 troller sapier1, its like maximum 6.4 blocks per second at 0 height 21:53 troller sapier1, its like real human falling speed 21:53 celeron55 ShadowNinja: you know, people could be going to commonly have objects in their houses which they wish to protect 21:54 troller sapier1, dont try 8) 21:54 ShadowNinja celeron55: Oh, you mean on_protection_violation? That is called seperately from is_protected. 21:54 sapier1 I remember fixing a "falling" issue in collision handling I decided against a fixed value but limit by cpu power 21:54 sapier1 6.4 m/s seems to be a little bit slow to me 21:55 troller block = 16 nodes 21:55 celeron55 ShadowNinja: you have to remove references of digging and placing, or alternatively include also interaction with objects 21:55 ShadowNinja celeron55: Eg, if minetest.is_protected(vector.round(pos), name) then minetest.record_protection_violation(vector.round(pos), name) end --> (1,2,3) is protected by SomePlayer. 21:55 sapier1 ok ok ... 364 km/h 21:56 troller sapier1, and now it depend by height, faster at 30000, slower at -30000 21:56 sapier1 still celeron keeps telling mintest engine should be usable for everything if you add such a limit you make the engine a ground engine only 21:57 sapier1 I don't see any reason why falling should be slower at -30000 than at +30000 21:57 celeron55 troller's code is consistently too limited to on-ground use, yes 21:58 troller sapier1, density of air, as in real life 21:58 VanessaE sapier1: an argument could be made that the air is thinner at +31k, so the terminal velocity is faster there 21:58 troller celeron55, i can make it adjustable if anybody wants it 21:58 celeron55 VanessaE: so, what if a game is set in space? 21:58 sapier1 if you create a space simulation there ain't any air around 21:58 VanessaE celeron55: then there should be no concept of terminal velocity at all :P 21:58 celeron55 VanessaE: or completely inside ground? 21:58 celeron55 VanessaE: that's the point 21:59 sapier1 e=mc² 21:59 * VanessaE shrugs 21:59 VanessaE not a solvable problem without a mod being able to specify min/max terminal velocity and the altitude range to which it applies I guess 21:59 sapier1 we already have some sort of speed limit as collision handling needs to be done for those fast moving things 21:59 celeron55 we shouldn't limit things unless it's absolutely necessary to keep things fairly simple 22:00 celeron55 s/to/in order to/ 22:00 troller celeron55, but current falling in master have unlimited speed if all blocks loaded, and stuck every block if not 22:01 sapier1 why not fix in collision handling ? preserving old velocity to be reapplied once the colliding block is loaded? 22:01 troller its other task 22:01 celeron55 there can be terminal velocity but it should be completely settable by the game 22:01 VanessaE I just said that :) 22:01 celeron55 (like other player's movement parameters) 22:02 celeron55 also i don't even know what pull you're talking about 22:02 celeron55 also i sleep now 22:02 troller my pull based on air viscosity, its now hardcoded 22:02 VanessaE minetest.set_terminal_velocity(object, minv, maxv, min_alt, max_alt) 22:02 sapier1 if you make it configurable it'll have way more chance to be merged 22:02 celeron55 eeeeeeeh 22:03 VanessaE seems simple enough, API-wise. Good luck coding it :) 22:03 sapier1 I suggest using config parameters not bloating api 22:04 VanessaE definitely API - what if a mod wants to alter those values over time? 22:04 celeron55 why can't you find the obvious thing 22:04 celeron55 set_physics_override 22:04 celeron55 add a parameter to that 22:04 kaeza suddenly: lag 22:04 celeron55 altough 22:04 VanessaE celeron55: or that; I've never used that feature. didn't know about it 22:04 celeron55 it's all wrong for this because they're based on multiplying defaults, and default is essentially unknown for this... 22:04 celeron55 hell 22:05 troller then need to make confugurable liquid and air viscosity 22:05 celeron55 i'd be much happier if troller just cancelled all his pull requests, they're so pain in the ass to try to fit in this thing 22:05 ShadowNinja celeron55: Docs updated. 22:06 sapier1 those I had a look at by now are feature add ons maybe we should delay them post 0.4.8 and think about how to implement them in a more generic way 22:06 VanessaE ok, regarding entity dupes: my servers have the path, both have had /clearobjects run on both and have been restarted. 22:06 celeron55 but... who came up with using MULTIPLIERS in ObjectRef::set_physics_override? 22:06 celeron55 it's complete nonsense 22:06 VanessaE any related testing can begin now. 22:07 celeron55 they should be the actual values used 22:07 sapier1 I've been driving around with my cart for half an hour now without any dup :) 22:07 VanessaE s/path/patch/ 22:09 celeron55 if this terminal velocity thing is taken into use, it should be used like ObjectRef::set_physics_override({speed=actualvalue, jump=actualvalue, gravity=actualvalue, terminal_velocity=actualvalue}) 22:10 celeron55 and the game is responsible for updating those in whatever way it wants to model it's atmosphere or whatever viscosities or whatever 22:10 celeron55 it's not minetest's issue 22:10 celeron55 and shouldn't be 22:10 celeron55 things like this should never be hardcoded 22:13 celeron55 and yes, this implies that eg. the current clouds should be disableable by game 22:13 celeron55 and everything like that 22:14 celeron55 troller: you need to fit your stuff to this way of thinking 22:14 troller ok 22:14 celeron55 it's the only way minetest makes sense 22:14 celeron55 other ways are boring crap 22:14 troller but current state is boring crap too 22:15 sapier1 having crap is no excuse for creating more crap ;-P 22:15 celeron55 of course it is boring crap; that's why we're here trying to make it less boring crap 22:15 sapier1 and we've come a long way so there's way less crap than a year ago or the year before 22:15 troller best way to solve is get viscosity from every node 22:16 troller now lava and water have hardcoded 0.3 22:16 sapier1 true but I guess that'd break map compatibility thus it's a huge change 22:16 celeron55 sapier1: what? 22:17 sapier1 adding viscosity to each node? 22:17 celeron55 lol, troller probably meant node definitions 22:17 celeron55 also it's wrong too 22:17 celeron55 you simply leave it for the game to do; there's no other sane option like i said 22:18 celeron55 or, well, node definitions multiplied by a ObjectRef::set_physics_override multiplier could work 22:19 celeron55 that could fit the needs of quite many possible uses 22:19 sapier1 so we have two ways to change either by doing a total conversion defining each node again ... can "air" be redefined? 22:20 celeron55 umm... well for this to work, it should be 22:20 celeron55 i don't think it's a problem 22:21 troller player already have liquid_viscosity, but its other viscosity 22:22 troller and its already used for stopping... 22:23 sapier1 so we already have s suboptimal solution ;-/ 22:24 celeron55 managing legacy crap hasn't ever stopped us from doing things better 22:24 sapier1 of course not imho it's just another point thatd speak for delaying until after 0.4.8 22:25 celeron55 well the viscosity thing is in 0.4.7 already 22:25 celeron55 or is it? 22:25 celeron55 liquid viscosity 22:25 sapier1 I don't know 0.4.7 feels like ages ago 22:26 troller yes, its old 22:26 troller ^ viscosity 22:26 celeron55 i'm starting to think weather should be reverted and rethinked 22:26 celeron55 it has too much game-level stuff crammed into the engine 22:27 celeron55 it's just wrong and makes kittens cry 22:27 troller where wrong? 22:28 troller game level only content_abm.cpp 22:29 celeron55 i guess mostly those 22:29 celeron55 they should at least be completely disableable by game 22:30 celeron55 the built-in weather altogether 22:30 troller its completely disableable by config 22:30 celeron55 no config 22:30 celeron55 game. 22:30 troller its add one string 22:30 celeron55 if i make my space game, i don't want to tell users they need to configure minetest so that they don't get rain in space 22:30 celeron55 it's ridiculous 22:31 troller rain is mod 22:31 troller dont include it to your game 22:31 celeron55 hmm, so you're saying this should work fully as expected for a space game? 22:32 celeron55 if so, then it's good 22:32 VanessaE the temperature and humidity perlin settings still need to be tuned to match plants_lib... 22:32 troller now fog humidity-depend if weather enabled 22:32 celeron55 but if you're lying, i'll punch you! 22:32 troller and melting-freezing 22:33 celeron55 how is humidity and temperature determined? 22:33 troller by hmmmm's biomes 22:33 troller +- season changes 22:33 celeron55 can a game specify them in any way it likes? i'd like zero humidity in free space and some on top of planets 8)? 22:33 VanessaE https://github.com/VanessaE/plantlife/blob/master/plants_lib/init.lua (lines 22-30) 22:34 troller celeron55, now - looks not, but its near biomes definition 22:34 celeron55 okay so that would be handled by biomes 22:34 troller now only by config 22:35 VanessaE and plants_lib interprets those figures thusly: https://github.com/VanessaE/plantlife/blob/master/API.txt#L530 22:35 celeron55 VanessaE: i don't think syncing some noise parameters of a mod and the engine makes sense 22:35 celeron55 the mod should just get them from the engine 22:36 celeron55 ...the resulting values 22:36 VanessaE celeron55: it makes sense because my mod and SPLizard's snow mod already established these params ages ago. To change them now means shit grows in the wrong places. 22:36 VanessaE like palm trees getting buried under a meter of snow, etc. 22:36 troller VanessaE, simple solution: start new world ;) 22:37 celeron55 ugh 22:37 celeron55 whatever, you solve it yourselves 22:38 celeron55 troller: so now: remove everything from your pull requests that conflict more with that space thing 22:38 celeron55 because they're not allowed, because they lock the engine down to smaller scope of things which is undesirable 22:38 troller only add game no_weather option check 22:39 sapier1 I want aseroid showers! ;-) 22:39 sapier1 +t 22:39 VanessaE ha! 22:39 celeron55 troller: i don't understand what that means 22:40 celeron55 game add weather option_no check minetest already mod params sense snow 22:40 troller game can redefine config value? 22:40 celeron55 it can't 22:40 celeron55 it isn't allowed to 22:41 celeron55 i mean, it can but it's bad behavior of a game 22:41 celeron55 some things at the moment are really bad from this standpoint, like map generator selection 22:42 celeron55 aactually 22:42 celeron55 no, that can be selected 22:42 celeron55 well so should be weather anyway 22:43 celeron55 things are constantly turning out better than i thought they were 8) 22:44 sapier1 mapgen is world specific as far as I know 22:44 celeron55 a game can force it by using minetest.register_on_mapgen_init 22:44 sapier1 overwriting the mapgen in world? wow 22:45 celeron55 of course 22:46 sapier1 hmm I thought thatd result in mixing mapgens but a world always has a game attached so this doesn't happen 22:46 VanessaE there's one mod that does that. 22:46 VanessaE um.. 22:47 VanessaE oh that experimental mapgen nore is working on. it forces the mapgen to singlenode 22:47 VanessaE and it's just a plain mod afair, not a "game". 22:47 celeron55 well, a game is mostly just a collection of mods so... same thing 22:47 troller server must send to client weather flag and clouds params 22:47 sapier1 true a game can't call a lua api 22:47 VanessaE right 22:48 sapier1 so first or last mod setting mapgen will win? *g* 22:48 celeron55 troller: it should be possible to have clouds without weather 22:49 celeron55 troller: but yes, i guess it has to be transferred to the client like that 22:49 troller its separate things, 22:49 troller but for good clouds need many params 22:50 celeron55 maybe it makes sense to hardcode the cloud noise and just transfer the seed and position for now 22:51 celeron55 ehm... dunno, really 22:51 troller i want weather-defined cloud with colors, etc 22:51 troller it was already 2 years ago 22:52 VanessaE +1 22:52 troller https://github.com/TeddyDesTodes/minetest/tree/weather 22:52 troller http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7foJg52ZFA0 22:54 troller for config: maybe make layer of lua-defined not saved to .conf params? 22:54 zat it is that the video card is very good or it is the first time I see a weather feature actually performant. 22:55 VanessaE troller: oh that is BEAUTIFUL 22:55 VanessaE what the hell happened? 22:56 troller g_settings->get('aa') - first check lua-setted 'aa', and then 'aa' from conf 22:56 celeron55 it's a native C++ client-side implementation 22:56 troller ^ with sending all lua-settes do client 22:56 celeron55 troller: WHAT 22:57 celeron55 it's possible to do very scary stuff with settings 22:57 celeron55 there's no way a server should be able to set any of them on the client 22:59 celeron55 or, well, there could be a whitelist, but that sounds hacky 22:59 VanessaE well at least some settings make sense. 23:00 troller but it better than send various settings by special separate packets 23:00 VanessaE cloud height (or existence) 23:00 VanessaE fov has been discussed. 23:00 VanessaE there are others. 23:00 troller fog 23:00 celeron55 there should be an another namespace for those that the client handles explicitly without mixing settings 23:02 troller but it need something like double gets g_settings->get('aa') || c_settings->get('aa') 23:02 celeron55 you need special handling for it anyway for smooth changes and whatever 23:03 celeron55 on other words just overlaying the settings is a hack 23:03 troller better: c_settings->exists('aa') ? c_settings->get('aa') : g_settings->get('aa') 23:04 troller need to go sleep, bye 23:04 celeron55 s/on/in/ 23:05 celeron55 i really hate trying to collaborate on protocol design 23:05 celeron55 the only thing that comes out of it is headache 23:06 VanessaE sadly :( 23:06 celeron55 i guess i'll go sleep with my headache now at 2 AM -> 23:07 * troller 03:06