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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-08-09

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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09:03 celeron55 should we disallow using the minetest logo as an avatar on the forum?
09:03 celeron55 or at least allow it only for core devs or something
09:04 celeron55 many people have started using it and it's just worthless as an avatar now
09:05 VanessaE I would tend to agree with that idea
09:06 Calinou that's a silly rule
09:06 kaeza Allow it, but allow some other special overlay for devs?
09:06 kaeza like the MT icon plus an overlaid "DEV" or something
09:07 * celeron55 does not like kaeza's suggestion
09:08 kaeza ah well, some random suggestion :P
09:10 * sfan5 has apples on the tree in the logo and a lava lake
09:10 sfan5 s/in the logo and a lava lake/and a lava lake in the logo/
09:33 thexyz celeron55: we should disallow avatars
09:33 thexyz and use something like gravatar
09:33 thexyz just make it so users cannot change it
09:34 VanessaE gravatar is okay, but not having avatars at all?  what is this, 1990?
09:34 thexyz no, this is 2013
09:35 VanessaE exactly.
09:35 VanessaE there's no legit reason to get rid of them.
09:35 thexyz no there is
09:35 thexyz they distract people
09:36 thexyz s/no/yes/
09:36 VanessaE if you're distracted by a little icon off to one side... um...
09:37 Calinou avatars allow for quick identification
09:37 Calinou and you can still change a gravatar
09:38 thexyz VanessaE: by little ugly icon, yeah
09:38 thexyz that's why I suggest to use gravatar
09:38 thexyz it can generate pretty patterns
09:38 VanessaE not supporting something as simple as an avatar, it makes a site look incomplete
09:38 thexyz reddit is incomplete
09:38 thexyz and hacker news
09:38 thexyz shit
09:38 VanessaE reddit sucks anyway :)
09:39 kaeza +1 for gravatar
09:39 VanessaE but reddit isn't a forum
09:39 kaeza one avatar less to configure :P
09:39 thexyz you said "site"
09:39 VanessaE s/a site/the site/
09:43 sfan5 -1 for gravatar
09:45 thexyz elaborate
09:45 VanessaE wouldn't it be easier to just add a rule that says something to the effect of "Your avatar may not be substantially the same as anyone else's."
09:45 thexyz no
09:45 thexyz who'll you give minetest icon avatar to?
09:46 thexyz and then, it doesn't matter as others will be angry
09:46 VanessaE whoever had it first?  (or to c55, idc who)
09:46 thexyz alright, so who had it first?
09:47 VanessaE actually the first person I noticed was pilz but that doesn't mean I'm right of course.
09:48 VanessaE or give it to whoever originally drew it (erlehmann?)
09:48 VanessaE (I forget)
09:54 celeron55 i think just disallowing using the same avatar as someone else would be sufficient here
09:55 celeron55 the point of an avatar is to allow quickly seeing who is who (or at least on forum.minetest.net it is)
09:55 celeron55 so having the same avatar simply defeats the purpose
09:56 celeron55 unless those having the avatar represent some meaningful group
09:56 thexyz oh well, good luck with that
09:56 celeron55 well this is ultimately up to whether the moderators care
09:57 celeron55 i trust them to have the widest view on what works and what doesn't
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11:58 PilzAdam AFAIK I am the first one who had the Minetest logo as an avater
12:03 thexyz see? it's happenin'
12:03 PilzAdam what?
12:04 thexyz nah, nothing
12:04 thexyz I dislike the idea of taking away those avatars from some users
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13:41 thexyz we should make remote_media fetch files based on sha1 hash, not name; any objections?
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13:59 thexyz now how to do that without breaking anything
14:05 proller +1 and without re-downloading if file exists
14:06 thexyz i thought it doesn't redownload
14:09 thexyz i didn't post it here, but the plan is: make it fetch media by sha1 hash, make cdn.minetest.net a public static server, use free cloudflare plan to cache it
14:09 thexyz then we can add it to default minetest.conf
14:44 kahrl there should always be the option to download by name
14:45 kahrl it allows server owners to easily set up their own remote media server
14:45 thexyz well we can also code a script, similar to django's collectstatic command
14:46 kahrl maybe
14:47 kahrl though if the server owner sees a 404 for some sha1 and wants to fix it that's harder than seeing a 404 for a name
14:47 thexyz he or she just runs collectstatic
14:48 thexyz we can include name as a ?param
14:48 thexyz I just don't see the reason to support both
14:49 kahrl we should ask some remote media server owners what they think
14:50 thexyz that depends on how're we going to present it
14:50 thexyz > hey guys, here's a free fast media server for all your needs
14:50 thexyz > hey guys, we're breaking this once again
14:51 kahrl can everyone upload to cdn.minetest.net?
14:51 thexyz nope, I'm not going to give access to everyone
14:52 kahrl then some are going to want to keep their own server
14:52 thexyz that's true, and they can
14:52 thexyz and it'll be even easier
14:53 proller make names by sha + symlink to real file names
14:54 kahrl proller, that doesn't work
14:54 thexyz i object
14:54 thexyz what if original file is changed
14:54 kahrl a real file names can have multiple different contents
14:54 kahrl name*
14:57 proller real file names for custom servers
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15:45 celeron55 only hashes for sure
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20:16 VanessaE the media server failing to reliably send .x files (or the client failing to always receive them) needs fixed first
20:18 VanessaE as for filenames vs. hashes, hashes are obviously better for making sure the client gets exactly the variant of a particular file that it needs, but maybe that's overkill?
20:19 sfan5 hashes are hard to manage without some kind of tool
20:19 kahrl has there really been any case where the server doesn't send the .x files?
20:19 VanessaE on my remote media server, I solved that by copying over all the default stuff first, then the third party stuff over that, so the client always gets whatever a mod provides, if it overrides something in default.
20:19 VanessaE kahrl: mine?
20:19 VanessaE except I guess it's the client not using them
20:19 sfan5 happend to me too
20:19 sfan5 on VanessaE's server
20:20 kahrl VanessaE: from what I saw in the logs, the client get active object messages before it has the meshes
20:20 kahrl gets*
20:20 VanessaE kahrl: right, corrected myself after remembering that.
20:20 kahrl so it's really an independent issue from the remote media thing
20:21 kahrl or, well
20:21 VanessaE call it "less-dependent" ;)
20:21 kahrl the client sends TOSERVER_RECEIVED_MEDIA when it starts fetching remote media; maybe it shouldn't do that?
20:22 kahrl does anyone know why it was done that way?
20:22 * sfan5 doesn't
20:23 kahrl indeed, the server checks if the client sent TOSERVER_RECEIVED_MEDIA before it tries sending mapblocks and objects
20:26 kahrl thexyz: any idea?
20:29 thexyz kahrl: because `getClient(peer_id)->definitions_sent = true;`
20:30 thexyz though I'm not sure why that happens before media is received
20:31 kahrl thexyz: when that is set the server assumes the client has all media
20:31 celeron55 kahrl: sending that at that point sounds like totally wrong
20:31 kahrl celeron55: it does to me
20:32 kahrl but when I first saw it, I thought, "that looks so wrong, there must a really good reason for it to be done that way"
20:33 celeron55 i can't remember any reason
20:33 celeron55 try it
20:33 thexyz nah, i probably just fucked it up
20:33 thexyz sorry
20:34 thexyz should be somewhere around line 848 in client.cpp
20:34 kahrl I'm rewriting that part anyway, so no problem
20:34 kahrl (using the httpfetch module)
20:35 thexyz we'll probably need separate domain for cdn
20:35 VanessaE ...which is fucking FAST
20:35 VanessaE :)
20:36 thexyz hm?
20:37 VanessaE thexyz: his httpfetch code.  Menche tested it with an empty cache - sucked down all the media off my remote server in like 30s
20:41 thexyz oh that's good
20:43 thexyz I guess "minetest-cdn.net" is good enough, right?
20:44 VanessaE not sure if he had something of a rose tint to his glasses or if that's accurate, but it was fast for sure :)
20:44 sfan5 why not cdn.minetest.net?
20:44 thexyz sfan5: cloudflare requires to delegate domain to them
20:45 sfan5 Tesseract: reconnect, it was my daily disconnect
20:45 kahrl VanessaE: what was his media_fetch_threads?
20:45 sfan5 woops, wrong channeö
20:45 sfan5 channel*
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20:47 * VanessaE grumbles
20:51 kahrl <kahrl> VanessaE: what was his media_fetch_threads?
20:51 kahrl (Menche's)
20:51 VanessaE 8 I think
20:52 kahrl ah, that's good then
20:52 VanessaE either 8 or 16, I forget which setting he had in force at the time
20:52 kahrl I don't really know if changing the default to 16 would be a good idea
20:52 VanessaE leaving it at 8 is probably sufficient
20:53 VanessaE users whose net+cpu allow for more can always turn it up
20:54 kahrl it's also the question of whether they use any other net applications that need more than best-effort network
20:54 thexyz kahrl: will you change it to use sha1 hashes?
20:54 kahrl thexyz: probably
20:54 VanessaE right
20:54 kahrl 16 TCP connection have a big initial/minimal congestion window
20:54 kahrl +s
20:55 thexyz kahrl: ok, also please add curl_easy_setopt(curl, CURLOPT_FOLLOWLOCATION, 1);
20:55 kahrl it doesn't follow that by default? curious
20:56 thexyz I think it doesn't
20:57 kahrl what should CURLOPT_MAXREDIRS be set as?
20:58 kahrl maybe 8?
20:58 kahrl I'll set these for all http requests then, no need to distinguish between them I guess
20:58 VanessaE REDIRS as in http redirects?
20:59 kahrl VanessaE, yup
20:59 VanessaE is there any point in allowing more than maybe 2?
20:59 sfan5 2 should be enough redirects
20:59 celeron55 why not allow more?
20:59 sfan5 otherwise it would take too much time
20:59 thexyz I don't think there's much point in allowing more than one, but why not 8?
21:00 celeron55 it's completely useless to not allow more if it's a matter of a single parameter
21:00 kahrl I just don't want to set it to infinite, to avoid infinite loops
21:03 kahrl sfan5: if the server owner uses a slow configuration that's really their own fault
21:04 sfan5 hm, yeah
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21:11 thexyz support for multiple remote_media servers would be extremely useful
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