Time Nick Message 00:01 kahrl it might not be as easy as that 00:01 kahrl if you have a furnace open, you want fuel to go to the fuel list and cookables to go to the cook list 00:01 PilzAdam so, we officially have the Lua menu now? 00:02 hmmmm hey pilzadam, how's that VBO code coming? 00:02 PilzAdam its idling arround 00:04 kahrl there were some things I would have changed in the lua formspec before merging 00:04 kahrl menu* 00:04 kahrl but oh well 00:04 hmmmm like what? 00:05 PilzAdam also we already agreed on removing Finite Liquids from the GUI 00:05 hmmmm all of these things can be fixed 00:05 kahrl hmmmm: yeah they can 00:05 hmmmm lol. besides, if it wasn't merged, nobody would ever talk about these things. 00:05 kahrl I would eventually, it's just that I'm busy at the moment 00:06 hmmmm understandable 00:10 PilzAdam http://mg.viewskew.com/mgoblin_media/media_entries/59/FormspecMenu.png 00:10 PilzAdam ^ win build 00:11 PilzAdam (mingw) 00:11 PilzAdam we should have tested it on windows first... 00:13 PilzAdam when I leave a world to the menu it either segfaults or it looks correctly 00:14 PilzAdam but its always like the screenshot when starting Minetest 00:15 PilzAdam seems like the segfault is not reproduceable 00:18 PilzAdam hmmmm, I get the "two entries in one line" in the credits tab too 00:18 PilzAdam oh, actually thats even 3 in one line :-) 00:22 hmmmm hrmmmmm 00:22 hmmmm can you readily reproduce it? 00:23 PilzAdam yes 00:23 hmmmm that's good at least 00:23 PilzAdam the last 3 entries of "Active Contributors" are in the same line 00:23 hmmmm we'll see if sapier has a windows testing setup 00:24 PilzAdam also the Esc key doesnt work always to quit Minetest 00:24 PilzAdam some focus thingy I guess 00:24 hmmmm never knew you could do that 00:25 PilzAdam oh dear, the "Configure" window is completly messed up 00:26 PilzAdam its not sorted, modpacks are not "packed", the list doesnt work correctly (sometimes the selection follows the mouse all the time) 00:26 hmmmm the configure window completely fails for me 00:27 hmmmm obviously this is a work in progress and it's upstream 00:27 hmmmm we'll just fix all of these things.... what did you honestly expect for an 8000 line commit? 00:27 PilzAdam and the game icons are still in a lower resolution 00:28 kahrl why is this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/801 marked won't add? 00:29 PilzAdam I wondered about that too 00:30 kahrl I'll change it to low-priority enhancement 00:30 PilzAdam I guess sapier has a long TODO list now ;-) 00:32 kahrl heh, sapier snuck the change in the debug build from -O1 to -O0 into upstream 00:33 PilzAdam again!? 00:33 hmmmm ... 00:33 hmmmm god damn him 00:33 PilzAdam its like the third time he does that 00:33 hmmmm anyone want to change it back? 00:33 hmmmm well it might not've been intentional 00:33 kahrl yeah, O0 is terribly slow for me 00:34 hmmmm i mean, here he's working on main menu things and he needs his debugger to output actual information 00:34 hmmmm changed it, forgot to change it back 00:34 kahrl although O0 does make it easier to see real warning messages 00:34 hmmmm honestly, debugging with -O1 is a farce 00:34 hmmmm it helps kinda 00:34 hmmmm but you can mostly get the same results by adding printfs everywhere 00:35 kahrl I personally would probably use -D CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=RelWithDebInfo if minetest supported it 00:36 kahrl unless I need to dig deeper with gdb, of course 00:36 hmmmm i suppose we could add that too 00:38 kahrl I would add but I have no idea about MSVC options 00:39 hmmmm pretty sure it's the same, with the caveat that you can't use whole program optimization with debugging symbols or something along those lines 00:44 hmmmm alright: http://dev.minetest.net/TODO#Formspec_main_menu 00:48 hmmmm hey... at least the bugs aren't as hidden as those in the STL container migration 00:52 kahrl I'm procrastinating so I fixed #803 and #782 in a less hacky way: https://github.com/kahrl/minetest/commit/4aba0d5f0f73c560f831486a7e86278ce7ad1fff 00:54 kahrl 02:50:05: INFO[main]: Remaining textures : 6 <-- after running two singleplayer games 00:54 kahrl no more leftover _RTT textures 00:58 VanessaE error: the new formspec menu doesn't respect HDX's menu overlays. 00:59 VanessaE (presumably any other texture pack as well) 00:59 kahrl we should release 0.4.8 right now to piss everyone off :D 00:59 VanessaE hah 01:04 kahrl if someone is okay with https://github.com/kahrl/minetest/commit/4aba0d5f0f73c560f831486a7e86278ce7ad1fff I'll merge it 01:06 VanessaE oh sure, don't even bother fixing my issue :D 01:06 VanessaE (kidding!) 01:07 PilzAdam kahrl, ehm, that doesnt build for me 01:07 PilzAdam /home/adam/Minetest/minetest/src/tile.h:65:2: error: 'IMesh' in namespace 'irr::scene' does not name a type 01:10 kahrl hmm 01:10 PilzAdam adding "namespace irr {namespace scene {class IMesh;}}" works 01:10 kahrl it builds for me, strange, maybe because of irrlicht 1.8 01:10 kahrl adding that looks hacky 01:10 PilzAdam I have Irrlicht 1.7.3 01:10 VanessaE irrlicht 1.8 is evil. 01:10 PilzAdam ^ 01:11 kahrl mesh stuff is in irrlichttypes_extrabloated.h 01:11 kahrl the 1.8 headers probably implicitly include IMesh.h 01:12 PilzAdam we do the same for e.g. ISceneManager in main.h 01:12 kahrl tile.h is included everywhere so include irrlichttypes_extrabloated.h in tile.h is not the greatest of ideas 01:12 kahrl PilzAdam: ah 01:14 kahrl I'll do that then 01:14 VanessaE nice name for a header file. 01:18 kahrl force pushed: https://github.com/kahrl/minetest/commit/681ae0e273faed3a49a25079d986d9934d1114dd 01:22 PilzAdam kahrl, seems to work fine now 01:22 PilzAdam anything special to test here? 01:22 kahrl not really 01:22 PilzAdam valgrind anyone? ;-) 01:23 kahrl not me :P 01:23 PilzAdam its good then 01:30 VanessaE kahrl: not to harass, but can you fix what sapier broke in those menu overlays? :) 01:30 kahrl nope ;) 01:30 VanessaE :P 01:51 hmmmmm grrr 01:52 hmmmmm i can't even continue working on what i was working on 01:52 hmmmmm make a new world 01:52 hmmmmm new world isn't highlighted 01:52 hmmmmm and i have to actually really pick "v7" from the menu every time? 01:52 VanessaE ugh, that single-click-starts-a-world is fucking irritating! 02:00 hmmmmm the "dropdown" formspec element type is completely undocumented along with all the other new ones added 02:18 hmmmmm sapier, if you read this: there's absolutely no way to get a list of available mapgens, it's just impossible with the architecture of minetest. having the list mirrored in the main menu lua scripts is simply going to have to do 02:28 kahrl hmmmmm: wouldn't something like server->getEmergeManager()->getMapgenFactoryNames() be possible? 02:28 kahrl in theory 02:28 hmmmmm the "server->" part is the problem 02:29 kahrl oh, in the main menu? 02:29 hmmmmm yeah.. 02:29 kahrl oh you said that 02:29 hmmmmm it just isn't possible unless the server things are always compiled along with the client 02:30 kahrl well, they are, but the Server object isn't created at that point in time 02:31 hmmmmm they are?? 02:31 kahrl to be able to play singleplayer 02:31 hmmmmm i thought you were able to make a multiplayer only version 02:32 kahrl I don't think so 02:32 hmmmmm mm. 02:33 hmmmmm and if there's a lua error, it goes right into the game apparently 02:34 hmmmmm after you fix the NULL drop() on the clouds 02:37 hmmmmm and apparently GUIEngine isn't destroyed if there's a lua error either, so if you give any input after it errors, it'll try to crash because you're using an old lua state 02:42 hmmmmm how do you get irrlicht to stop calling GUIFormSpecMenu::OnEvent()? just destroy the GUIFormSpecMenu instance, correct? 02:45 hmmmmm ugh, different problem actually 02:48 hmmmmm frankly i have no idea what i'm doing here 04:06 hmmmmm wait a minute, what was the whole point of making the main menu formspec based exactly? 04:18 VanessaE to make it expandable in the future 04:18 VanessaE themeable games and the like, I guess 04:39 VanessaE another error I'm seeing is signing onto a server is no longer possible by just hitting enter after typing your password 04:39 VanessaE (you must click "Connect") 04:39 hmmmmm i'll fix that while i'm at it 04:39 VanessaE ok 04:40 hmmmmm er, not as easy as i thought 04:50 hmmmmm i can't even connect to anything 04:50 hmmmmm ERROR: couldn't ersolve address: non-recoverable failure in name resolution 04:50 VanessaE try my server as a test, it's working okay 04:51 hmmmmm screw this, i'm done for today 04:51 VanessaE (aside from some odd bug that I'm not sure if it's UI or what) 04:51 hmmmmm i assume this is due to proller's recent changes.. 04:52 VanessaE *shrug* no idea 04:52 hmmmmm oh 04:53 hmmmmm derp 04:53 VanessaE wrong tab? :) 04:53 hmmmmm the address/port is being filled with the description from the serverlist 04:53 VanessaE oops! 04:53 hmmmmm if that resolves i think that'd be pretty amazing 04:53 hmmmmm alright, simple fix 04:53 hmmmmm the "enter to connect" thing is not easy to fix at all though 04:53 hmmmmm i'd wait for sapier 04:59 hmmmmm alright so what i fixed so far should make it at least usable 05:00 hmmmmm pressing enter to start the game isn't possible though 05:01 VanessaE ok that's gonna be a problem. 05:01 VanessaE (not for me, I can adjust) 05:01 hmmmmm lol, that's a very small problem compared to what else there is to fix 05:01 VanessaE well sure 05:02 VanessaE I'm just saying to expect a lot of ... colorful, less-than-positive commentary :) 05:02 hmmmmm configure is fucked completely, any lua errors on init is a crash if you press any key after the game starts 05:02 hmmmmm and everything else i have on the todo 05:02 VanessaE I wonder how much of this is because of that last rebase he had to do? 05:03 hmmmmm none 05:03 VanessaE oh ok 09:03 Taoki Anyone with upstream access wish to merge this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/799 Already been up for testing several days, no more issues and complaints apparently 09:04 * Taoki then figures many of the core devs are in the US and probably sleeping right now 10:45 PilzAdam Taoki, AFAIK only hmmmm lives in the US 10:46 Taoki oh 10:47 PilzAdam Russia and Germany are the countries you are looking for :-) 10:50 Exio nobody is from the south hemisphere though :( 10:51 PilzAdam Taoki, it looks way better now 10:52 Taoki I worked on fixing all issues as much as possible, so it should be as good as it can get 10:52 PilzAdam though the coloring starts too early (at ~90°) 10:52 PilzAdam it should be more like 45° 10:52 Taoki That's intended. If it would start less early, it would also end sooner. The moon fog would also last less 10:53 Taoki As well as the purple horrizon which I find most beautiful :) 10:53 Taoki It already ends a bit too soon for the sun, so I found this the best balance 10:54 PilzAdam it doesnt feel right if you look in one direction and the fog starts getting yellow without any visible cause 10:54 Taoki PilzAdam: In real life, the horizon stays a bit purple-ish after the sun is over the horrizon 10:55 PilzAdam in real life the horizon doesnt change the color based on your view direction 10:55 PilzAdam I still think that its worth a try to make it not yaw dependend 10:56 Taoki We must consider it like this: Intensity isn't tweaked individually for each fog, it's the same for both (the entire blend). It also doesn't tell between sunrise and sunset. So the center of the effect must be when the sun and moon are aligned perfectly. Over that the effect needs a certain amount of time 10:56 Taoki (both back and forth) 10:57 Taoki As for not yaw dependent, that would require a different system. I'm considering it when we (possibly I) might attempt to make sky planets defined in Lua. In which case this would also need to adapt to each position 10:58 Taoki Right not I think that would be very difficult and not worth it, for a fixed sun and moon where we know where it rises and sets 11:00 Taoki When sun & moon will be defined in Lua, each sky planet would have a "fog influence" you can set for each position. Not now though... for the hard-coded sky this is best and easiest. 11:01 PilzAdam can you make a quick patch that makes the coloring start at ~45° so we can see how it looks? 11:01 Taoki PilzAdam: Easier if I just change the values and pastebin the changes, since it's a few values in a simple location. Will try that now 11:02 ironzorg /home/lenorm_f/games/minetest/src/mapgen.cpp:663:19: warning: multi-character character constant [-Wmultichar] 11:02 ironzorg if (signature != 'MTSM') {who the fuck does that 11:02 PilzAdam ironzorg, hmmmm :-) 11:02 Taoki PilzAdam: But again, I heavily doubt it will work. Because the system is centered. Maximum intensity must be when sun and moon are aligned, distance equal both ways around that. If we reduce the effect before a planet rises, we also do so after it sets (and for setting it's already too short) 11:04 Taoki Either way, going to test it now still 11:04 ironzorg tell hmmmm to stop coding in javascript :| 11:05 ironzorg minetest should be coded with -pedantic, so I can compile on other devices without having to fix those things 11:06 Taoki PilzAdam: Tried making it twice shorter. It looks really bad and barely even visible like I expected 11:10 Taoki PilzAdam: Making it 0.75 shorter compared to my current branch instead if a bit more acceptable. Still feels a bit too short, but acceptable at least 11:12 Taoki But as compensation, I'd increase intensity a bit 11:15 Taoki PilzAdam: No... that doesn't help either. Even at 0.75 the effect is too late for the sun set, and ends too quickly for the moon rise 11:17 PilzAdam why is the horizonzal and vertical part linked? 11:17 Taoki In what sense? 11:18 PilzAdam I asked you to decrease the horizontal range, but you say that it starts too late and ends too early; I dont see how these two thinks are linked 11:18 Taoki Ahhh. You mean how the colors are mixed by the pitch? 11:18 PilzAdam no 11:20 Taoki Oh, sorry :P You meant the bounds between which the transition starts (yaw). Sorry, my mind being slow again >.< 11:21 Taoki PilzAdam: I need to go eat now. To change those limits, tweak line 489 in sky.cpp. The one under the line: // bound view angle to determine where transition starts and ends 11:21 Calinou talking about fog, it would be nice if we had "fancy fog" 11:21 Calinou like minecraft does 11:21 Taoki It's a simple one-line formula and you only need to change the bound value. But make sure the numver of division is always the same 11:21 PilzAdam Calinou, what would that be? 11:21 Taoki Currently it's 1.375. Try 1.25, 1.5, etc instead and see which looks better 11:21 Taoki BRB in 15 minutes or so 11:22 Taoki But tweak that line and see if another value looks better. I found the sky corner most balanced (1.375) 11:24 Calinou optifine offers 1) fast or fancy fog 2) fog start distance (between 0.2 and 0.8) 11:24 Calinou default is 0.2 in minecraft 11:25 Calinou screenshots with fog start 0.8, comparison between fast and fancy fog: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82342922/temp/2013-07-03_13.22.57.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82342922/temp/2013-07-03_13.23.00.png 11:26 PilzAdam I dont really see the point of this 11:27 Calinou and again 8) 11:27 Calinou with fog start 0.2 it is way less obvious 11:28 Calinou minetest uses a "sharper" fog start 11:29 proller is possible later make fog depend on humidity ? 11:36 Taoki Back. Will try more options now 11:36 PilzAdam Taoki, that doesnt really reach what I want 11:36 Taoki PilzAdam: Ok. Can't think of any other way 11:37 Taoki For the current system that's the only tweak I can imagine 11:37 PilzAdam lemme draw a picture :-) 11:37 Taoki Sometimes only pictures can explain what's difficult to explain in words :P 11:38 Taoki But I don't know what else could be done 11:38 PilzAdam http://mg.viewskew.com/u/pilzadam/m/my-awesome-gimp-drawing-skills/ 11:39 Taoki ok. What about that? 11:39 PilzAdam I want the fog is colored only if looking at the yellow/blue part 11:39 PilzAdam so if I e.g. look directly to the right then the fog should have the default color 11:40 Taoki Oh, that value I mentioned should tweak it then 11:40 Taoki Just need to extend the sphere bounds 11:40 PilzAdam well, it doesnt work in the extend I want it to be 11:41 Taoki Should But highs might need to be mor eextended than ends 11:41 PilzAdam it currently looks more like this: http://mg.viewskew.com/u/pilzadam/m/my-awesome-gimp-drawing-skills2/ 11:41 Taoki Also, on that drawing, where should the fading start and end from? As in, during which area should it still fade? 11:42 Taoki Fading between the empty spaces in the first one? 11:42 PilzAdam the end points yellow/blue lines are the fade start/end points 11:42 PilzAdam +of the 11:42 PilzAdam so there is no coloring at all when looking at the left or right 11:42 Taoki It should work then. I'll try to tweak it 11:43 Taoki Ah, wait 11:43 Taoki No coloring when looking to the side you mean. Yes, the formula isn't optimized for that... 11:43 Taoki And I'm not sure how it would look. The transition time is short enough as is\ 11:44 Taoki Wouldn't want the fog to change color too suddenly 11:44 Taoki But, I'll try to obtain a formula that does this there, to at least test it out 11:44 PilzAdam the problem is that when looking at the right and turning the camera a bit (lets say 10°) the colors change without any visible reason 11:45 Taoki Ah. That's meant to represent a gradient, not necessarily the color "changing". 11:45 Taoki Since like discussed at the start of the topic, we can't have volumetric fog. So we rely on this changing to simulate you're seeing colors already to the left or right 11:46 Taoki I also re-checked in Minecraft BTW, and it does the same thing. Just more discretely for some reason 11:47 Taoki PilzAdam: But the idea is that the horrizon color is "already there". The color only changes to represent a gradient we can't have volumetirically. So it makes sense that when looking halfway, it's the middle color. At least what it's meant to simulate 11:48 PilzAdam but it looks weird 11:48 Taoki Bounding the halfway area might look even weirder. But I'll try to and see what I come up with 11:56 celeron55 Taoki: i request you to stop calling it "volumetric" 11:57 celeron55 there's nothing volumetric in varying fog color 11:57 Taoki Yeah, directional is more correct 11:57 celeron55 this is volumetric fog: http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/rsrc/Three/FogVolumes/AutomaticConstDensityFogVolume.jpg 11:58 Calinou ^ 12:00 Taoki true. Not something I'd mine Minetest having BTW :) 12:00 Taoki Think about water fog 12:08 Taoki PilzAdam: Oh, something else to note. The sun / moon coming into view can also depend on the FOV setting. So the formula won't be the same for everyone 12:09 Taoki We need an average logical bounding sphere 12:11 Taoki AAAH! 12:11 Taoki Never mind, even. What I'm trying won't work >.< 12:11 Taoki Color blend is calculated entirely separate from color intensity. it wouldn't be possible to add a break at the middle. 12:13 Taoki The code has two main calculations: Intensity of the sun / moon color over the normal colors (determined by daytime and influenced by pitch) and the blend between the sun and moon color in this offset color (calculated by yaw). 12:13 Taoki Only way to add a break to the sides is to apply the offset to both. But that wouldn't keep them from mixing 12:14 PilzAdam thats not good then 12:14 Taoki Well, actually... I can do a hard snap between the colors past 0.5 yaw, since if the blend isn't applied there no one sees the lack of a transition 12:14 Taoki I'll try to go with that 12:15 RealBadAngel hi 12:16 Taoki hi 12:16 RealBadAngel i updated bumpmapping to current tree 12:16 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/805 12:16 Taoki Ok, my head hurts... I'd need to remake part of the whole formula for the fog to fix this, and a lot of other new maths 12:17 Taoki PilzAdam: Does the halfway blend really look that bad? With the default fov it shouldn't even be visible there's a transition. We could leave it like this for now 12:17 PilzAdam yes, it looks bad 12:19 Taoki I'll probably give up on doing anything any more then. I worked daily for 3 days on a code, for nothing. Because no matter what I do it's still bad 12:19 RealBadAngel i had a little delay thx to kahrl, he removed atlas and i was using some atlas methods before 12:20 RealBadAngel Taoki, whats the problem? 12:20 Taoki RealBadAngel: I worked 3 whole days all of my free time to add properly colored fog. No matter what I do, it won't look good and it's not ok 12:21 Taoki I need to re-make complex maths every few hours, and it takes me 1-2 hours to even figure out a few lines. 12:21 RealBadAngel i saw effects of your work and i find it quite nice 12:21 Taoki I can't take a break either, cuz if I do the code will either be forgotten or new features will cause a GIT conflict 12:21 Taoki Whenever I contribute, this is the situation I end up in 12:21 Taoki (not only in Minetest if that's any consolation) 12:22 Calinou http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=97878#p97878 12:22 Calinou I remember trying to interpolate the yaw changes, and epicly failed 12:22 Taoki I fixed a dozen suggestions from many people for days. Now I need to re-make even more maths to fix another. 12:25 Taoki Problem is that I think changing it would also look worse. In ints initial state, the transition was done around the middle. It looked ugly because the colors flashes too quickly while turning around small areas 12:27 Taoki RealBadAngel, darkrose, celeron55, or other core devs: Anyone want to try my code and tell me if you agree with current functionality and appearance? And if you find the current coloring I used acceptable. Would like more votes on this 12:28 Taoki https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/799 12:29 Taoki I'm curious if you agree with the fog transition, or that I should do as PilzAdam suggested and apply no influence halfway. Which was what it worked like during my first test but I rememver and can say it looked worse 12:30 RealBadAngel Taoki, i will test the current pull later today and let you know what i think about current status of it 12:30 Taoki Thanks, I appreciate it. If other devs agree with the current looks it might be good 12:31 Taoki Not that I want to disregard PilzAdam's opinion illy intended. But for one thing I can't remake the whole formula gain, and on the second hand the way he's suggesting was already tested by me and it looked worse. 12:31 Taoki Worse because the colors would flash and change so quickly between two nouns as you turned around, it looked even more illogical 12:31 celeron55 ...are you seriously requesting me to test it? well okay 12:32 Taoki celeron55: I understand it must be so bad it has to be a joke I'm asking you to bother :P 12:32 celeron55 i'm going to test it and i am going to have an opinion on it 12:33 celeron55 just beware 12:33 Taoki ok 12:34 RealBadAngel celeron55, you could take a look also at bumpmapping, i have pulled it 12:34 Taoki If you'll disagree on too many lajor things, I'll give up on continuing this code and leave it to other devs to do it as it's considered it must be done. I can't make any more major changes at this point 12:34 Taoki **major 12:35 celeron55 RealBadAngel: does it work on a GMA 950? 12:35 Taoki Not a ragequit BTW, but it means I can't do it how the team considers it must be done. That and after several days of working on Minetest, I can't allocate even more mental resources to re-making part of the code 12:35 RealBadAngel celeron55, whats GMA 950? 12:36 celeron55 an old integrated intel GPU 12:36 RealBadAngel no way 12:36 celeron55 no way then 12:36 RealBadAngel its a modern GPU's thingy 12:37 RealBadAngel it can be turned on/off depending on players hardware and choice 12:38 RealBadAngel moreover its not for 16x texture packs 12:38 RealBadAngel but 128x + 12:38 celeron55 by the way, has somebody kept track of build times? 12:38 PilzAdam Taoki, if you dont have fun when coding then you are wrong in open source development 12:38 celeron55 i feel like building this taoki's pull request takes longer than sometime before 12:39 PilzAdam celeron55, do you compile Lua mainmenu the first time? 12:39 celeron55 yes but i take that into consideration 12:39 Taoki PilzAdam: I have fun with some of the codes (and ith initial implementations). It's only not fun when you spend hours trying to figure small things out and it takes days to even do anything basic 12:40 Taoki celeron55: The code is very small and shouldn't increase compile time by more than a milisecond :) 12:40 RealBadAngel celeron55, will you be against the option to use it too? 12:40 Taoki Likely something else is increasing it 12:40 celeron55 RealBadAngel: i take no position on that, unless it hinders something when being off 12:41 RealBadAngel when off, nothing changes 12:41 celeron55 i don't really understand why something like that would be used though, considering there are no dynamic lights 12:41 RealBadAngel have you seen the screenshots? 12:41 celeron55 because all could be just baked into textures anyway 12:42 celeron55 of course 12:42 RealBadAngel when lights will become reality, code will require almost no changes to work with them 12:42 Taoki Liiiightsssss.... 12:43 RealBadAngel im using now fake light source 12:43 Taoki RealBadAngel: Can envmap and / or dynamic reflections, as well as refraction (for water) be done until we have HW lighting? 12:43 RealBadAngel no 12:44 Taoki ok 12:44 RealBadAngel for this i need light sources 12:44 Taoki Even envmap reflections? Those shouldn't require any lighting, just blending two textures and giving camera view coordinates to one 12:44 RealBadAngel i tried to fake it, but results were not acceptable 12:45 RealBadAngel sometimes it was lookin ok, sometimes it was a shit 12:45 Taoki RealBadAngel: What's the progress on the hardware light shader? Any even partly working test up? 12:46 RealBadAngel i need first to finish the projects i was workin on 12:46 Taoki ok 12:46 RealBadAngel bumpmapping is ready, major technic changes are partially ready 12:46 RealBadAngel i want to raise technic onto another level 12:47 celeron55 Taoki: i think it's good 12:47 celeron55 as for what it does 12:47 celeron55 i don't have time to look at the code though, somebody else must review it 12:47 Taoki ok. Glad you agree about it 12:48 Taoki The code is rather simple. Only thing that could be considered dirty are the formulas I had to use, but I guess those are needed in any major code 12:53 celeron55 RealBadAngel: have you tried making faked light sources based on analyzing the environment? 12:53 celeron55 eg. placing a couple to nearest torches and a cave opening if such is found with some fast algorithm 12:55 RealBadAngel not yet 12:55 RealBadAngel i just assumed we will go for irrlicht lights 12:55 RealBadAngel is that an idea? 12:55 celeron55 it's not going to happen anytime soon, don't rely on it 12:56 RealBadAngel that could be possible 12:56 RealBadAngel take sun pos (visible or not) and something like neighbours 12:56 Taoki celeron55: RBA plans to make HW lights a reality, so it might happen soon 12:57 Taoki But Irrlicht lights I doubt will work, RealBadAngel 12:57 celeron55 irrlicht light = hw light 12:57 Taoki We already suggested and discussed them, and there's no way to mask non-shader lighting 12:57 Taoki celeron55: Yes. But if not done with our own shader, the masking might not work 12:57 Taoki I shader it should be possible to cut lights off using param1 12:57 RealBadAngel i could make simplex lights faking that fits the current schema 12:58 Taoki If Irrlicht lights can be made to do that, I'd prefer them too, so sure thing 12:58 RealBadAngel if i will suceed with hw too that could give players option to choose from 12:59 RealBadAngel with hw lights much more can be easily done 12:59 Taoki RealBadAngel: Problem is that for any type of light, we must keep at least sunlight from shining indoor and in caves 13:00 Taoki Preferably torches too from shining through walls 13:00 RealBadAngel for example water reflections and surfaces are built-in irrlicht stuff 13:00 RealBadAngel simple one liner 13:01 Taoki RealBadAngel, celeron55: If you want an image of how I dream Minetest will look like someday (not that it matters what I think xD), THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM5PRtDrbW8 13:02 RealBadAngel i have all the shaders needed for such effects 13:03 RealBadAngel and found out im able to make just bumpmapping without lights 13:03 RealBadAngel but c55 gave me an idea actually 13:03 Taoki OMG, that sounds like too good news to be true :P 13:03 RealBadAngel and im gonna test it out 13:04 Taoki If we add god's rays, my fog system might turn out useless too :P (not really, it's its own effect still) 13:06 Taoki Oh... and there's another shader we can add for now BTW. Already tried it but my knowledge in shaders was still too bad 13:07 Taoki We should be able to add a wavery deformation shader. To use for water and drawtype_plantlike 13:07 Taoki So plants deform as if wind is beating and water is well... wavery 13:09 Taoki BTW... shaders bring me back to something else, and I wonder: How possible would it be to use them to smoothen out map blocks. Yes, I'm talking about my idea to use something similar to marching cubes to (optionally) have smooth detailed terrain. Although I know that's not what Minetest is intended for 13:09 RealBadAngel im thinkin about rebuilding shaders system 13:09 RealBadAngel so one could be able to add effect 13:09 Taoki http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=28827 13:09 Taoki sounds good 13:10 RealBadAngel which could be turned on/off 13:10 RealBadAngel and one final shader 13:11 Taoki http://www.volumesoffun.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=90&sid=6452d9930e0df1d13b5645c1c932640f This is the type of thing I'd be hoping to achieve with a "rounding" shader 13:11 RealBadAngel so there wont be a need to copy the same code in all the shaders 13:11 RealBadAngel but thats rather big project and for later 13:12 Taoki RealBadAngel: Well, smoothing of node surfaces could be done with a shader. Just needs a subdivide call I think... but it needs to be done properly 13:12 Taoki Not anything by far urgent of course, but still thinking :) 13:14 Taoki Heh... even better idea: Don't smoothen out the whole terrain surface, just the topside. To still make them blocky but a pillow-like type of block design or something. But again, distant thoughts 13:15 Taoki Need to learn shader functions and do this myself :) 13:17 RealBadAngel btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNsN_konRbs 13:18 RealBadAngel i suggest some1 start thinkin bout Oculus Rift 13:18 Taoki http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/099/7/e/minecraft__the_grass_by_lordpankake-d4vmvzv.png Something of this sort is what we could do with deformation vertex shaders :) 13:19 Taoki RealBadAngel: http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/200H/f/2011/347/1/6/minecraft_grass_block_full_3d_textured_model_by_xhazard78x-d4j192g.png This would look cool to do with your parallax mapping system 13:19 RealBadAngel and it wont work on intel cards too ;) 13:19 Taoki AHH, eyephones. I want some badly too :P 13:19 Taoki side-by-side separation should be enough to support that tho 13:20 RealBadAngel minecraft and terasology have already Oculus Rift support 13:20 Taoki RealBadAngel: If ou have an intel card, you don't plan to render anything 3D except maybe glxgears 13:20 Taoki nice 13:20 RealBadAngel my gfx is 4 years old and capable of all this stuff 13:21 Taoki http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/146/8/0/minecraft___grass_block_by_lemmino-d66ooxy.png A node in minetest decades from now ;) 13:21 RealBadAngel even amd thinks my card is legacy and not supported anymore 13:22 RealBadAngel nowadays parts are so cheap that it shouldnt be any point 13:23 RealBadAngel Taoki, lol 13:23 Taoki Depends what cheap means to everyone. I'll need to put money aside for an year to upgrade my PC 13:23 Taoki Well in my case I only get top-edge hardware 13:24 Taoki RealBadAngel: That last link was partly a serious statement :P Think of a simple deformation shader + very detailed parallax map. Then a dense particle system 13:24 RealBadAngel i just got better laptop than my box from my cell phone provider as a bonus for not quiting 13:24 Taoki Really? 13:24 Taoki Your cell phone company gave you a laptop as a gift? 13:24 RealBadAngel i could get a new phone or tablet or a laptop 13:24 RealBadAngel ive chosen laptop 13:25 Taoki You live in one happy country, I'm glad for you :P 13:25 RealBadAngel its not really a gift 13:25 Taoki still 13:25 RealBadAngel they use it to make you sign for another year 13:25 RealBadAngel but still 13:26 Taoki Even so 13:27 RealBadAngel i will have Acer Aspire V5 13:27 RealBadAngel quite nice toy 13:27 Taoki RealBadAngel: Oh, and regarding a better (and automated) shader system. sfan5 has this pull request for some time, and I don't know why it's not in yet: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/595 13:27 Taoki RealBadAngel: My laptoip is an Acer Aspire too :) 13:28 Taoki celeron55, PilzAdam: Any reason why this pull is waiting? It would make shader development a lot easier by not requiring code changes 13:28 RealBadAngel about sfan's pull, its definitely wrong 13:28 RealBadAngel shaders are not a texture you can put somwhere or not 13:28 PilzAdam Taoki, yes, it doesnt work 13:28 Taoki Ahh, ok 13:29 RealBadAngel code needs variables to be passed 13:29 celeron55 Taoki: it's mostly useless because of what you know yourself too 13:29 celeron55 just read your comment on it 13:29 Taoki RealBadAngel: Why couldn't they work like a texture you can put somewhere? I know shaders require parameters, but base shaders wcould be auto-detected 13:29 celeron55 practically *all* remotely useful shaders need special handling from C++ side 13:29 RealBadAngel and thats a hardcoded connection between c++ and shader code 13:30 celeron55 also there is just one shader per one material 13:30 Taoki celeron55: I admit I'm not experienced with shaders. I know they take properties from code via uniform variables, and I assume those would need mentioning between the code and each shader 13:30 celeron55 so it becomes even more useless 13:30 * Taoki ponders shaders from Lua, just to be more evil :P 13:31 RealBadAngel to make shaders plug n play we would need to make some standards 13:31 PilzAdam I dont really understand why so many people care about graphics, its not the main point of Minetest at all 13:31 RealBadAngel nah, pointless 13:31 RealBadAngel shaders wont do anything on their own 13:32 RealBadAngel thats game deciding what shaders should do 13:32 PilzAdam inb4 shader API ;-) 13:32 Taoki IIRC game needs to point out a mesh to the shader, and the shaders applies the effects 13:32 celeron55 PilzAdam: because graphics is a thing one can do without actually having any nontrivial goal 13:34 RealBadAngel shaders on their own are not able to decide whats water, where it is etc 13:34 RealBadAngel with such plug in one you can make shader that turns everything grayscale for example 13:34 celeron55 PilzAdam: altough they will be wasted if _nobody_ has a nontrivial goal 8) 13:34 Taoki That's true, the game needs to tell them what surface types to act one 13:35 Taoki Well, for 3D shaders at least. 2D processing shaders can decide on their own 13:35 Taoki Which BTW we don't have yet and need to :P 13:35 Taoki Those are fot things like bloom, motion blur, etc. which don't need 3d info, and can just post-process each frame before rendering it 13:35 Taoki **fog 13:36 RealBadAngel my long term goal is to allow different shaders work on the surface and gather all the effects in one final shader 13:36 Taoki RealBadAngel: I know I'm getting overly excited. But what about depth of field? Does that require lighting too to calculate properly? 13:37 RealBadAngel so game shall pass surface type, light data to shaders code 13:37 RealBadAngel and let all the shaders work on it 13:37 RealBadAngel so no switching between shaders and copy pasta between them 13:38 RealBadAngel Taoki, im not sure about DOF 13:39 Taoki Why not? 13:39 Taoki Actually, never mind. DOF is also a 2D shader. Though it uses 3D data 13:39 Taoki Since 3D shaders affect the mapped texture and geometry itself. FOF iss still post-processing done to the rendered frame 13:39 RealBadAngel i was workin on god rays, reflections, refraction, bumpmapping, occlusion and this cartoon effect shader 13:40 Taoki nice 13:40 Taoki God rays are the ones that would take the cake after HW lighting ^^ 13:41 RealBadAngel but now i really have to go, i have a date :) 13:41 RealBadAngel c ya 13:41 Taoki lok, later 13:41 Taoki *ok 13:42 PilzAdam Taoki, btw, Terasology has volumentric fog 13:42 Taoki Haven't checked it out in some time, nice 13:47 Taoki We could use that one for water 13:56 celeron55 i really wonder why people don't just go for terasology or something instead of MT 13:56 celeron55 as the only thing they seem to care about is graphics 13:56 celeron55 it just doesn't make any sense 13:57 Taoki It's not the only thing. But graphics matter a lot too 13:57 Taoki The real art is having great graphics with a great system and functionality. But both are important... though graphics are indeed secondary 13:58 Taoki If you focus ONLY on graphics, you end up with something like Unreal Tournament 3: Fantastic visuals, c**p gameplay and barely anything fun to do 13:59 Taoki If you focus only on gameplay, you have the primary purpose properly done. But it feels empty and wrong without great visuals after some time (namely when you know they can be improved) 14:00 Taoki celeron55: As for why I like Minetest over terasology, mainly two reasons. One is that TS is still in java, and java sucks for games IMO. Second and most important one, it has no modding API like we have Lua 14:00 Taoki And of course I've been with Minetest for a while, I wouldn't want to leave and get started with another engine 14:00 celeron55 ut3 has "fantastic visuals"? lol 14:00 Taoki MT is also simple and flexible, yet able to do a lot if you want it to 14:01 celeron55 laughably generic and boring they are 14:01 Taoki celeron55: The graphics in UT3 are pretty good. But only that 14:01 Taoki ok I did find them impressive at the time at least :P 14:03 celeron55 i'd hope that all people who have interest in gameplay would develop gameplay 14:04 Taoki Well, "gameplay" is mostly developed now I'd think. In the sense that you can define and use items like you wish. So I'm most interested in other mechanics that go with it now 14:04 Taoki Only additions I'd see possible to what could be called the purpose of MT is more abilities to how items work. But the gameplay is mostly done in Lua 14:05 Taoki So adding to the gameplay would mostly mean adding new items. Which is easy to do and many mods already have (but never got upstream) 14:05 Taoki The "paintings" mod for example has been ready for I think almost 2 years. Flowers mod took very long to get in too 14:07 Taoki There's also already a workbench mod, and we still have no workbench and the 3 x 3 crafting grid in inventory (because, le sigh, that would make us too much like Minecraft) 14:09 celeron55 in my viewpoint, gameplay *isn't* developed 14:10 celeron55 there's not much depth in even the best game attempts currently 14:10 Taoki I don't even know how it can be further developed and the wanted direction. Only thing I do know is that we need a lot more items, decorations, things that spawn naturally, etc... that without doubt 14:11 Taoki If you mean that then yeah 14:11 celeron55 i also know the community has developed to have people who don't even expect depth by now 14:12 Taoki Funy thing is I heard opposite views too. That instead MT should be kept relatively simple. Though I don't think that 14:12 Taoki At the same time, I think ignoring mods that could be integrated officially is a big cause 14:12 celeron55 depth and simplicity aren't opposites 14:12 Taoki Example: Why isn't mesecons in yet? Or the paintings mod... 14:12 celeron55 that's not depth 14:12 Taoki Also PilzAdam's simple mob framework, though I can see where that needs more work 14:12 Taoki ok 14:13 Taoki I do think that's adding to the environment and things you can do still 14:13 celeron55 i acknowledge this wishing could be way off of any development reality by now though 14:14 celeron55 well, mobs for sure are a key thing in blocking depth 14:14 celeron55 gameplay depth, to be clear 14:15 Taoki One major difference I noticed between Minecraft and Minetest is that in MC, you are more intrigued to play because you have more things to do. In MT it's harder to really feel like you can have the same building a house, farming, etc. It just doesn't feel... ready in a sense. 14:15 Taoki It doesn't feel the same to put work into a house on an online server in Minetest same as on MC. Something is missing 14:15 celeron55 that feel could be quite close to the feel of missing depth 14:15 Taoki yeah 14:16 Taoki It's not just the lack of items though. MT still lacks a lot of immersion. I think the "fancy visuals" discussion contributes a bit to this too 14:16 celeron55 ...and it isn't fixed by modifying sunsets or adding shaders 14:16 Taoki Personally at least, I find a combination between lack of items and activities, and the overall feel isn't quite as... pulling and captivating yet 14:17 Taoki celeron55: That's a small part that can contribute too 14:17 Taoki My sunset fog for instance fixes one thing I hated; The dull and dead visuals at sunrise / sunset. It adds more life and I can tell the difference 14:17 Taoki A small step, but the difference can be felt 14:18 Taoki More sounds (including environment ones) would help too. Though a proper ambience mod doesn't exist yet 14:18 Taoki (I know about the "immersive sounds" mod, but I have reasons to say proper) 14:18 Anchakor MT isn't a game now, it's purely sandbox atm 14:19 Taoki Anchakor: Sort of. I'd say it does feel slightly like a "3D voxel editor with realistic physics and logics" 14:21 Taoki Sadly, the word "a voxel editor" qualifies it most at this stage, IMHO. But don't worry much about that... I can also tell it's deemed to become one of the best open-source virtual space engines in time 14:21 Taoki Or "world engines" if that's better 14:22 Taoki It's very easy to add things, and a lot of people want to add things. It will get a lot further I can tell 14:22 celeron55 gameplay depth is about something like progressing interaction 14:23 celeron55 you don't get that from people adding things they want from the same standpoint 14:23 Anchakor I can say that sandbox isn't attractive to me 14:23 Taoki That too. For me it's having enough items and activities to do. A lot of complex things to go about 14:24 Taoki Many biomes, many tools, many devices and systems (technic mod helps a lot with that) 14:24 Taoki And of course many mobs... both villagers, animals, or enemy mobs 14:24 celeron55 that's called variety, not depth 14:25 Anchakor when I first played MC I played it because there were monsters, I could explore and discover new things and places and I could build crazy fast minecart rides :) 14:25 Taoki Having a lot of things to do creates depth though. It's not the only factor still 14:26 Anchakor I think simple addition which adds depth is mobs which give you reason to build things to properly defend yourself and your things 14:26 Taoki Anchakor: I got into MC because it was booming over the internet. Unfortunately, I started out as a hater... because I didn't understand why everyone was so exciting AND paying money over a game in jave with 8 bit graphics 14:26 Taoki But when I understood I was retarded I fixed it 14:26 Taoki **java 14:27 Taoki By that time I didn't understand the wonders of what you could do with voxels yet. 14:27 Taoki Think this was about 3-4 years ago 14:27 Anchakor I think even sandbox games need gameplay mechanics which gives them reason to build and do things 14:27 celeron55 anyway, gameplay depth is the thing where game development actually is, and what is hard about game development 14:28 celeron55 everything else is just engines, graphics and whatever items 14:29 Taoki Idea is that MC (and I think that's the aim for MT too) aren't just sandbox games. I could say they also have a bit of RP, but the correct term is it's more of a worlds simuillator where you can do things 14:30 Taoki Hence why frequently, I'm tempted to not call MC / Mt games at all. More like virtual spaces 14:31 Taoki Games are usually those where you have an objective to accomplish (cross the finish line first, frag as many people as possible, etc). This is more of a worlds simulation system where you can invent a lot of things 14:32 Taoki People who've been into Second Life as well can easily tell what I mean by virtual space where you can do things 14:33 celeron55 it's not as different as you think, and it's separate from mechanics 14:33 celeron55 when there are gameplay mechanics in place in a sandbox world, the players can easily imagine "finnish lines" by themselves 14:34 celeron55 when there aren't a lot of mechanics (as in current MT), players can't really do that 14:34 Taoki Yeah. But if they make games and contests within such an engine, the engine itself isn't a game engine... just that construction in it 14:34 Taoki yeah 14:35 Taoki And sadly I have to go now. BBL in 1-2 hours or so. Hopefully can finish the fog thing with RBA then tale a look at his bumpmaps 14:35 celeron55 monsters are an easy and well working example of a mechanic which allows setting many kinds of objectives 14:35 Taoki yeah 14:35 celeron55 just one among many, but anyway 14:37 celeron55 and as for monsters, depth you start getting by eg. requiring some drops from monsters in a crafting recipe, and more as you can't kill that monster without something, and more with eg. having more difficult monsters deeper, or having some tricks to defeat them, or pretty much anything that creates "progress" like that 14:38 Anchakor Taoki: good open world RPGs are also not games according to your definition then 14:41 celeron55 also, actually i can't even think of anything as good as monsters - it's just such an inherently obvious thing for poking up interaction from players 14:41 celeron55 but for example mining could be used to achieve gameplay depth 14:42 celeron55 being able to succesfully design and implement stuff like that is the expertise of a game developer 14:48 sokomine building complex buildings, enjoying when it's done and perhaps doing contests (we don't really have those on mt servers) is worth something. beeing able to change the world - not having to go with a pre-generated world. that's where mt and mc are both great at - and that is valuable. in a way, right now the game is mostly creative and less of a game as such. but is that bad? i don't think so 14:50 celeron55 i think it *is* bad, but not in a sense that it shouldn't be configurable to work like currently 14:50 celeron55 it leaves so many people out now because it doesn't have anything to offer for them while it could 14:51 sokomine admittedly, more and more young players join the game, and only a small fraction really wants to excell in creative building. gathering materials and trading them adds a bit of fun. some of those players may need more entertainment, and there mobs come in. i heard that on a mc server, players tend to hunt mobs more these days than participate in building contests 14:51 celeron55 trading is a lot more fun if you trade stuff to people who need it for fighting monsters 8) 14:51 celeron55 or for mining, or any other objective 14:53 sokomine hm. i've seen players play hide and seek on a minecraft classic server. and similar things. but does that really add depth? to me, it only adds more entertainment (which is not bad either) 14:56 sokomine mobf is a very intresting factor in that regard because it could eventually allow both - "decorative" farm animals, traders and inhabitants for your shops and houses, and monsters for those who like hunting them. even complex rpg stories could be done in theory. unfortionately, mobf is just at the beginning. simple mobs hasn't even started in that direction (it just aims at offering mobs that roam around and are thre to be killed 14:58 celeron55 well, one problem is also that the current "ActiveObject" system of MT isn't particularly good 14:58 celeron55 or, actually i don't even know 14:58 sokomine and in that context, i'm thinking of the mobs as another creative element - as mobs which you can place to extend the decoration/make the world feel filled with life - without personally caring about the shooter-aspect 14:58 celeron55 if following certain design principles, it actually should work 14:59 celeron55 but it really isn't a piece of cake 14:59 celeron55 the largest problem is that it's buggy :P 15:00 sokomine it helped a lot when entity-entity-collusion was added. that mobs wandered through each other was quite scary. and the 2d shapes for players where also too strange 15:00 sokomine yes :-( hope it will improve :-) 15:02 sokomine improvements in graphics are also very welcome. beautiful sunsets are likely to make builders happy 15:03 sokomine in a way you can say that the mt gameplay is extended by *modding* - not only can you dig/place blocks in the world, you can also change quite easily how those blocks behave. it may sound strange, but that's one of the strength of the game 15:06 sokomine in another sense than modding in other games works like. here, it can be considered part of the gameplay 15:07 sokomine it extends what the game is about with diffrent means 15:09 celeron55 yes it does; it's probably very odd to outsiders though 15:11 celeron55 but really, it should be just a happy side benefit of having something otherwise good 15:12 sokomine for most other game types it would be like this. but here, it really is part of it. just see how many people want to write mods - even if it doesn't do much and just adds a few blocks. it doesn't mean that they consider the world incomplete - it's just a way of changing it. like putting a building on an otherwise natural landscape 15:16 twoelk hi, this topic finally got me out of lurking 15:16 sfan5 ..hello 15:17 twoelk I have some mc maps and I always play peacefull 15:18 twoelk I think building in itself is a great play subject 15:18 twoelk maybe some sort of questsystem might attract gameplay designers 15:21 celeron55 hmm, i don't really think so 15:21 celeron55 i mean, of course some people would try it out and make something 15:22 celeron55 but the open world isn't really optimal at all for premade maps and quests 15:25 twoelk maybe not when starting the game as such 15:26 twoelk but I have a nephew who as an example enjoys enrichening mc maps with quests 15:26 twoelk and then sharing these 15:29 twoelk if you don't have some static goal like a drogaon on a pillar, all you have is searching for some rare item or difficult build 15:30 twoelk *dragon 15:30 twoelk or maybe advancing through a level system 15:33 celeron55 i don't really like level systems, at least if they are plainly visible 15:34 celeron55 and if they are like the ultimate goal 15:34 twoelk I was rather thinking of an achievement levelsystem for the player 15:34 celeron55 how does that differ from what you tought i understood? 15:35 celeron55 because i see no difference :P 15:35 twoelk I thought you understood different realms and such 15:35 celeron55 no no 15:37 celeron55 as an acceptable progression system i could see for example the vertical expansion of the player-controlled environment (by making players overcome all kinds of challenges getting further down and up) 15:37 twoelk well the good thing of an open system is you can change the goal 15:38 celeron55 or, actually, my original vision still stands as that 15:38 proller_ difficulty = distance_from_0,0,0 15:38 twoelk what I like about mt is you can use it as fps or creative or technic simulation or whatever 15:38 proller_ by x,z too 15:39 proller_ stronger monsters, etc 15:40 twoelk actually I'm personally totally uninterested in fictional monsters, sorry 15:40 celeron55 proller_: i feel the only thing preventing it from happening is people lacking some kind of an initial motivation boost 15:41 twoelk I'd rather have wolfs, lions mamoths ... 15:42 celeron55 twoelk: from a gameplay perspective, all the same; it doesn't really mattter in this context what they're called and look like 15:42 celeron55 -t 15:42 twoelk uh? 15:43 twoelk sorry, new to irc, what does all black mean? 15:43 celeron55 no idea what you're talking about 8) 15:44 celeron55 did your client do something funny because i mentioned your name? 15:44 twoelk might be 15:45 twoelk cant read your name 15:45 twoelk its all black 15:45 celeron55 anyway, i said "from a gameplay perspective, all the same; it doesn't really matter in this context what they're called and look like" 15:46 twoelk the behavior is different 15:46 twoelk but that doesn't matter , thats personal taste 15:46 celeron55 well, it'll no doubt be moddable to anyone's taste once the expertise of making good mobs exists in the first place 15:47 celeron55 and systems 15:48 celeron55 really the question is: is there even any other viable alternative than starting to develop mobs 15:48 twoelk don't think that will add depth though just more excitement/fun 15:49 twoelk some sort of static message system similar to signs but on book scale might be of value 15:49 celeron55 i feel like just continuing to provide a platform for people to build houses kind of wastes much of the available developer work 15:49 celeron55 build houses in* 15:50 twoelk like go to some place read the riddle and solve the mystery 15:50 celeron55 what'd the solving involve? 15:51 twoelk donu, build a bridge accros lava withy no fly to get to some other hint? 15:52 twoelk oops brebuild map 15:52 celeron55 sounds boring if there aren't any monsters or anything to bother you 15:52 proller_ celeron55, in rpg motivation is to find more powerful items, without levels system we can make more frequent diamonds-mese-.. in hard monsters areas 15:53 twoelk not excluding that ;-) 15:54 proller_ or kill rare strong monster.. 15:55 twoelk so you want some random gameplay gain by generating a random map with a random danger to suit every random player? 15:56 twoelk to get some random game depth? 15:56 proller_ yes! 15:57 twoelk we need some random genius then 15:57 proller_ but low-level in spawn area (100-200 radius from spawn) 15:59 proller_ and volatile world around player with seasons, weather, hard-to survive hot-cold areas, volcano biomes. ........ 16:00 proller_ it will be the best game 16:00 proller_ but after 1-3 years of develop 16:01 twoelk I like building stuff and as such enjoy the graphics (+for seasons) but when in a fighting game have no time to gaze at the surroundings 16:01 twoelk I would minetest to be best platform for both 16:01 twoelk I would like ..... 16:02 proller_ disable damage and build unlimited 16:02 twoelk maybe switchable ingame 16:02 twoelk I do that in singleplayer 16:02 celeron55 twoelk: in the tradition of minecraft, we will always support some kind of a creative/peaceful mode 16:02 proller_ twoelk, its smallest problem 16:02 celeron55 we _know_ there are people who like such 16:03 twoelk I said both didn't I? 16:03 twoelk I got nephews to please with the games I suggest 16:04 twoelk one is for guns and tnt, one is for roleplay and the girl for building 16:09 celeron55 do people think it's a good idea to start a channel for having people who support such a thing join and discuss there until something more exact is agreed on? 16:09 celeron55 really there are two issues: can something be agreed on, and are there people who actually are willing to work towards whatever is agreed 16:11 celeron55 it could be done here too but i feel some people don't like the publicity of this channel for letting their thoughts flow freely 16:11 celeron55 (and the officialness) 16:12 Anchakor people who are willing to work on such a game mode and are willing to collaborate can get people and start such a channel themselves 16:13 celeron55 it's not a matter of starting a subgame, as it requires open collaboration from the engine side 16:13 Anchakor well I mean that it wouldn't be bad if 2 or more groups with different gameplay visions emerged 16:16 celeron55 ...well that depends 16:16 celeron55 in any case, i'm open to the idea of having deeper gameplay in the spirit of what was talked about and am on the side of whoever who dares to attempt such 16:20 celeron55 Anchakor: as far as i understand, you too would prefer such development to start? 16:20 twoelk programming and gamedesigning skills often don't live on the same planet from what I have seen and played 16:22 celeron55 yeah 8) 16:22 celeron55 you can learn both by hard work though 16:23 celeron55 (as long as you're able to see your weaknesses) 16:24 Anchakor yes 16:25 celeron55 MT doesn't have a good game design background at all 16:25 Anchakor I studied quite game design in my free time quite a lot, and I code C++ for money, but unfortunately I am quite burnt out as a coder 16:25 Anchakor on the other hand I enjoy learning and doing game design 16:26 twoelk a game designer might sketch possible directions and the coder will have to stake out what is possible 16:26 twoelk and that should be published somewhere for all to read 16:27 twoelk it might stop peoble from requesting things that are difficult to achieve 16:27 celeron55 how much are you involved with gamedev stuff? 16:27 twoelk who me? 16:28 celeron55 yes 16:28 celeron55 i can't say your name because apparently you couldn't see what i write then 8) 16:28 twoelk first time on this channel 16:28 celeron55 i'm a hobbyist game developer these days and read and follow and do gamedev stuff a lot, but i don't really focus my efforts in terms of that to MT 16:29 twoelk I used to design obscure boardgames long time ago 16:29 twoelk none ever got anywhere 16:30 Anchakor I did boardgame design too :) 16:30 celeron55 MT is so disconnected from real game development that it's hard to get anything relevant to that through here 16:30 celeron55 i mostly react to that by being passive about it and sometimes rant here like now 16:30 Calinou real game development = DRM development, graphics, "how to make stuff more realistic" 16:30 Calinou that's all :P 16:31 celeron55 Calinou: that's called shit 16:31 twoelk with computers I am more on the building and cad side 16:31 Calinou celeron55: if by real you mean AAA 16:31 celeron55 AAA is shit development 16:31 celeron55 it's a different thing! 16:31 twoelk that is building with virtuall lego for example 16:31 Anchakor are people opposed to a resource based combat system in MT? 16:31 Calinou well, +1 16:31 Jordach how about minetest works more like Age of Empires 16:32 Jordach a really good RTS never hurts 16:32 Anchakor -_- 16:32 celeron55 lol, MT isn't going to be an RTS by any stretch 16:32 PilzAdam minetest should be more like 16:32 Calinou ...minecraft! 16:32 celeron55 Anchakor: what'd that mean in practice? 16:32 Anchakor minetest should be more like tetris! 16:33 twoelk oh I was hoping for some 3d "die Siedler" 16:33 twoelk among other directions 16:33 Anchakor celeron55: system based on different kinds of attacks, buff and debuffs, that kind of thing 16:34 celeron55 Anchakor: you know, you've suggested that before too, yes? 16:35 Anchakor it's possible, I don't know how much of my design of a procedurally generated action RPG game have I spilled here 16:35 celeron55 in any case, i think anything is better than what MC and MT have currently 16:36 twoelk wouldn't be here if that was so 16:36 celeron55 have you even used the combat system, once? 8) 16:37 twoelk oops not interested 16:37 celeron55 Anchakor: seriously, my only concern here overall is that nobody will actually do anything 16:37 celeron55 ...and that some people won't understand this "game thing" at all, but i think they'll learn to understand 16:39 twoelk maybe you should explain somewhere "big" with lots of examples 16:40 celeron55 seriously, if there is anything that keeps someone from experimenting with anything like that, shout it here like it was the most important thing in the world because it is 16:40 Anchakor celeron55: yeah, well even small steps are good, just get some monsters, half-decent combat system and everyone understands survival :) 16:41 celeron55 also yes, i feel bad for not just doing it my self 16:41 celeron55 myself* 16:41 twoelk is there some ai engine one could plug in? 16:42 PilzAdam twoelk, of course there isnt, otherwise we would have proper mob mods 16:42 twoelk ah Pilzadams name I can read he's all blue 16:43 celeron55 he just said your name with some stuff, can you read it? 16:44 celeron55 (you really should fix your client if not) 16:44 twoelk I can read the stuff but his name is difficult 16:45 twoelk sure got lots to learn like tweaking this programm I'm using for the first time 16:45 PilzAdam what client do you use? 16:45 twoelk KVIrc portable 16:48 twoelk ok undone name highlighting if thats the issue 16:52 sapier I'm not sure what pilzadam built but last time I tested on win32 it did show correct menu ... so I need more information 16:52 PilzAdam it seems to be only broken in wine 16:52 sapier ok that's an explanation 16:53 PilzAdam and before someone asks, we support wine 16:53 sapier ok then drop formspec I don't even have a clue where to look for it 16:55 sapier supporting wine for a open source app buildable on linux ... whoever decided this must have been drinking 16:57 twoelk btw outdated info: the 0.4.7 install version for windows seems to behave differently to the runinplace zip, being much slower on my system 16:59 sapier kahrl is there a reason why you call a function parameter m_device? 16:59 hmmmm sapierrrr 17:00 hmmmm make some sort of lua error on init, it'll start the last world immediately. then press escape, instacrash 17:00 sapier there shouldn't be a lua error in mainmenu ;-) 17:00 hmmmm GUIFormSpecMenu::OnEvent is still getting events after it errored out 17:01 hmmmm i looked and you never clean up any m_menu things in the dtor 17:01 sapier yes but the only way of catching a lua error is closing application either so it's not quite different ;-) 17:01 sapier its the mainmenu if there's no working mainmenu nothing can be done ;-) 17:01 hmmmm see, i would've fixed it or come up with some other behavior that doesn't involve instantly crashing 17:02 hmmmm but i don't really understand how everything fits together 17:02 sapier ok I'll fix it to crash in a more controled way :-) 17:02 hmmmm like, what's a formspecsource, when do you delete it if ever, and how about m_menu 17:02 hmmmm if you do delete m_menu, guienv crashes when it tries to draw that in draw_load_screen 17:02 hmmmm or something along those lines 17:04 hmmmm well those are things i saw when i was trying to fix some other things that are real problems, like you used to be able to press enter in the multiplayer tab and it'd press connect 17:04 sapier not sure what you mean? 17:04 hmmmm so how do you detect enter button presses in the button handlers? 17:04 hmmmm (or if you really can't, how do you force a button element to have focus) 17:06 sapier I guess enter button could be done similar to escape key but I need to have a look 17:07 hmmmm and who comes up with the event.typ codes? 17:07 sapier I'll fixup the todo list points first some are minor 17:07 hmmmm looked through all files for "DCL" or whatever it was, nothing 17:08 hmmmm also, pilzadam is able to consistently get the listbox append bug 17:08 sapier it's mapped in lua 17:09 hmmmm ah okay, i figured it was in guiEngine.cpp because you had all those similar 3-letter color codes 17:09 sapier stop no DCL is set inm guiFormSpecMenu.cpp line 2032 17:09 hmmmm okay 17:09 sapier evaluation of listbox events 17:09 hmmmm by the way, you *can* use if-elseif-else 17:09 sapier problem is a listbox is a somehow special button as it can be clicked different ways 17:10 sapier in lua ? really? 17:10 PilzAdam of course you can 17:10 hmmmm well in lua, but i was referring mostly to in C++ :) 17:10 PilzAdam elseif is just one word, not two 17:11 sapier what's that todo with the delete button? 17:11 sapier ahh server tab 17:11 hmmmm if (string == "some constant") { return SVideo::Color(255, blah blah); } else if (string == "some other constant") { ... 17:12 sapier I'll change it 17:12 hmmmm eh. 17:12 hmmmm not really necessary now, i'm just saying 17:13 hmmmm lol. if it were me coding that, what i'd probably do would be to read the color code as an integer and use a switch statement on it 17:14 hmmmm speaking of which, i was reading the logs and it seems like someone here doesn't like multi-character constants 17:14 hmmmm i should add -Wno-multichar to shut up the schematic file signature checking (and hopefully complaints as well) 17:14 sapier I didn't code it as int because I cant remember 7 beeing red and 3 beeing blue ;-) 17:16 hmmmm no, i mean like color = readU32(color.c_str()); switch (color) { case 'RED\0': return blah; case 'YLW\0': ... 17:17 sapier that wouldn't work at all 17:17 sapier switch case only supports integers but not strings 17:17 hmmmm they are integers 17:17 sapier 'RED\0' isn't an integer 17:17 hmmmm why not 17:18 sapier hmm 4 bytes .. ok ok ... it could be an integer yes 17:18 sapier but only on 32bit architecture 17:18 hmmmm i was thinking about this the other day 17:18 hmmmm basically, minetest won't run at all on anything that uses a 16 bit int 17:18 sapier in any case it's a really really dirty hack :-) 17:19 hmmmm if only because it'd lack the performance necessary 17:19 hmmmm no doubt we'd have a lot of integer overflows as well 17:19 hmmmm so a 32 bit integer is safe to assume 17:19 sapier yes it's not that performant true but we're in menu .... user is way more slow 17:20 hmmmm what's the point of a menu if you can't play the game? 17:20 sapier I guess the listbox concatenation is a wine issue too? 17:20 sapier while playing game no menu is shown ;-) 17:20 sapier and it's no difference if a menu takes 1 or 2 ms to show up 17:21 hmmmm but in regards to a color switch statement, i'd do that purely for the syntactical benefits 17:21 hmmmm you get to use a switch statement instead of a huge if-elseif chain 17:21 hmmmm real shame that lua has no switch statement at all 17:21 sapier the vertical text is/was there in standard menu too ... as anyone requested to show the menu exactly as before its in formspec too 17:22 hmmmm er.. i wanted to remove the vertical text a while ago 17:22 hmmmm never got around to it 17:22 sapier no I can't use a switch statement if you have text identifiers? 17:22 RealBadAngel hi 17:22 sapier ok if there's consens about removing it I'll remove it but I wont add it back once removed it 17:26 RealBadAngel we do have now formspec based menu, right? 17:27 hmmmm yup, just avoid clicking 'configure' for now ;) 17:27 RealBadAngel hehe why? 17:27 celeron55 hmmmm: in languages like lua, you're really supposed to make a table with mapping from keys to callback functions 17:28 PilzAdam hmmmm, do you have some example usage of register_biome()? 17:28 celeron55 or if you only need to translate values, then keys to values 17:28 hmmmm it either lua errors, segfaults, or has misplaced formspec buttons 17:28 hmmmm segfaults on windows 17:28 hmmmm pilzadam, just the ones i gave you 17:28 hmmmm i still discourage people from using biomes and v7 17:28 PilzAdam I only have this old one http://pastebin.com/xwmCD3ae and it doesnt work anymore 17:29 hmmmm ahh.. i pasted what i currently have to somebody in #minetest 17:30 hmmmm hm, celeron, makes sense, they really take the asssociative array idea to the maximum 17:32 RealBadAngel i would like to make shaders configuration menu, by now with one option to choose, but in future for many settings. shall i wait for more settings aviable or start with just one? what do you guys think? 17:32 hmmmm http://pastebin.com/qQ2uw3Nm 17:32 PilzAdam thx 17:32 hmmmm wait for more settings... and it'd be nice if the menu got stable before people started trying to add features 17:33 RealBadAngel ok 17:33 RealBadAngel so by now i will add just config file setting for bumpmapping 17:34 sapier can someone explain to me what's up with "Button positioning ... Configure menu" 17:35 hmmmm http://mg.viewskew.com/mgoblin_media/media_entries/59/FormspecMenu.png 17:36 hmmmm er not button, what are those things called 17:36 hmmmm tabs 17:36 hmmmm tab buttons 17:36 sapier ok that's the wine problem ? 17:37 hmmmm i don't know what pilzadam used... i guess wine 17:37 PilzAdam yep 17:37 sapier I don't have any idea what wine is messing up to get that result 17:44 PilzAdam hmmmm, how do I tell the mapgenerator to put dirt_with_grass on top of dirt? 17:46 hmmmm see, that's something i was going to change today 17:47 hmmmm right now you can't. i have the grow dirt into dirt with grass hard coded 17:48 hmmmm i am redoing the entire top node placement mostly because it's inflexible and also it's partially broken when i added in positive 3d noise mountains 17:52 sapier ok I guess I fixed all non wine related issues currently known about formspec menu 17:52 hmmmm how did you fix the enter button press? 17:53 sapier ok that one is missing ... i was talking about the todo list 17:53 hmmmm oh okay 17:53 hmmmm the listbox line concatenation too? 17:54 sapier I can't reproduce this 17:54 hmmmm me neither 17:54 sapier I can't even guess what's happening there 17:54 sapier I assume this happens on wine only too? 17:55 hmmmm apparently not... i saw it once 17:56 sapier if someone finds a way to reproduce it I may be able to fix it 17:59 sapier enter key should start game in singleplayer and server tab right? 17:59 hmmmm yes 17:59 hmmmm you fixed the address issue for the server tab, right? 17:59 Calinou oh, that 17:59 sapier address issue? 17:59 Calinou when you disconnect, the preselected server is not used 17:59 Calinou instead, the server you previously connected to is used 17:59 Calinou to fix, you have to select another server then select the first server again 18:00 hmmmm click on something from the favorites list, the server name gets put in the address box, not the address 18:00 hmmmm so then it tries to connect to Foobar's Awesome Server:30000 18:00 sapier oh ok I'll fix it 18:00 hmmmm I tried fixing it but i got frustrated and gave up after it started saving the name to the settings for no apparent reason 18:02 sapier enter key in server tab is a little bit tricky 18:02 hmmmm yeah, i thought it was a simple fix yesterday too 18:03 sapier in singleplayer it's not an issue 18:03 sapier but in server tab the textfields catch the enter button 18:03 sapier I guess I know how to fix it 18:03 hmmmm i suppose you can see if all of the textfields are part of the entry but no other elements are 18:04 sapier I already pass editbox enter event too 18:05 sapier ok fixed 18:08 hmmmm heh. what's tricky is to see if your choices for perlin noise values are good or not, if they fall into your range most of the time... i've been assuming this whole while that they form a normal distribution, but this might not be the case :( 18:09 sapier ok I think I fixed the server address issue too 18:10 sapier anything else? 18:10 hmmmm not to my knowledge 18:10 hmmmm do you think we can make a bold font? 18:10 hmmmm for the credits tab i wanted to use a bold face instead of yellow text, but the latter was simpler 18:11 Calinou doesn't freetype support multiple fonts already? 18:11 * Calinou would rather like outlined text :P 18:11 Calinou outlined text can be read on any color 18:18 Taoki Anchakor: RPG's are RPG's. They have fixed environments and objectives / purposes such as quests and leveling 18:18 sapier irrlicht listbox doesn't support setting item font 18:23 hmmmm oh, yeah, i forgot about that 18:23 hmmmm irrlicht guis are very limited in what they can do 18:23 sapier sadly irrlicht gui elements are quite limited 18:23 hmmmm and if you bring it up to the developers they'll say "go draw it yourself, you have the tools' 18:23 sapier there are some minor glitches I can't fix due to it ... I'm just waiting for someone to recognize ;-) 18:24 Taoki hmmmm: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=97920 18:24 hmmmm oh.... taoki, you know i can't do that 18:25 Taoki Do what? 18:25 hmmmm add facedir rotation as well 18:25 Taoki Why? I already havbe the formula to fix it (lua version at last) 18:25 Taoki **have 18:25 hmmmm yeah, this is a lua thing 18:25 hmmmm load up the area in a vmanip 18:25 hmmmm scan through things that have a facedir 18:26 hmmmm edit those 18:26 hmmmm oh wait i see the problem, can't modify the facedir 18:26 Taoki Why can't they be fixed on schematic creation? 18:26 Taoki yes 18:26 hmmmm because that's not something for the schematic api to do 18:26 celeron55 8D 18:26 hmmmm seriously, give them an inch, they ask for a mile 18:26 hmmmm zz 18:26 Taoki heh 18:26 hmmmm well 18:26 * celeron55 orders a lightyear 18:27 hmmmm set_node calls 18:27 hmmmm ah right, that's what i said about this 18:27 Taoki "seriously, give them an inch, they ask for a mile" - What reporting a bug in an implementation means 18:27 hmmmm this is a feature request 18:27 celeron55 it's not a bug when it's not even intended to do it; but it's a bug in the interface that it's hard to do by oneself 18:28 Taoki Any scheatic with a torch or stair will be imported incorrectly. But ok, I just reported it is all 18:28 hmmmm it's not imported 18:28 hmmmm it wasn't made for importing things 18:28 Calinou Taoki: except if the torch's direction is already right :P 18:28 hmmmm again with this 18:28 Taoki Creating, sorry 18:28 Calinou 1/6 chance :P 18:28 hmmmm i didn't add the rotation because you requested it either, by the way 18:29 hmmmm i did it because that was part of my original plan 18:29 kahrl kahrl is there a reason why you call a function parameter m_device? 18:29 kahrl yes; it is called sed s/ 18:29 kahrl can you tell I was tired when writing that patch? 18:30 hmmmm right so my official stance on facedir is the same as my official stance on node metadata: the nodes that do have these are not present in bulk, and encountering them are rare exceptions that need to be handled individually 18:30 hmmmm schematic api and voxelmanip api are there to handle bulk node data 18:30 Taoki hmmmm: That's very ok and not relevant. I'm not pointing this bug out like I ordered a feature from you (I did ask it for my mod but also because I considered it would be needed overall) 18:30 sapier no problem kahrl :) 18:31 hmmmm so I really don't see what's *wrong* with scanning through the things you need to give special attention to with a voxelmanip, and then calling set_node() on it 18:32 Taoki Only thing I'd see wrong with that is that one has to use a different system to "repair" the results of a bug with the original creation of the schematic 18:32 hmmmm ... 18:32 celeron55 stop calling it a bug or someone will explode 18:32 hmmmm where did i ever say that this fixes up facedirs 18:33 hmmmm and it'll mow your lawn as well, right? 18:33 hmmmm it doesn't? 18:33 hmmmm bug! 18:33 hmmmm gotta fix this BUG! 18:33 hmmmm need to apply a BUGFIX 18:33 Taoki You totally misunderstand what I'm saying 18:34 Taoki I called it a bug because the incorrect facedirs cause broken schematic creation. I consider that a bug as much as skipping blocks and spawning cincompletely. But of course it's not for me to say "fix it now" and it's not what I meant... just pointed it out 18:35 hmmmm when i move into an apartment and find that it doesn't already have a washing machine, i start calling it broken 18:35 Taoki Any schematic with a torch, stair, or door is created incorrectly (eg: is broken). If that's not a bug then I don't know what is 18:35 Taoki Again, not to say "fix it now", but as a principle 18:36 Taoki Might as well just import dirt nodes instead of the node type in the schematic 18:37 hmmmm it's a big WONTFIX here 18:37 celeron55 you're both fighting about a different thing 18:38 celeron55 that's useless 18:38 Taoki If that's your point on it, I understand. But by a normal standard, that is still a bug. 18:38 Taoki yeah 18:38 Taoki Went into explaining why I think it's a bug is all 18:38 Taoki Gonna post on the forum for anyone else who wants to try fixing it (since it likely can be fixed) 18:39 celeron55 it would be much more useful if hmmmm noted how he thinks the thing should be implemented in builtin like it was decided 18:39 celeron55 and if Taoki then made that, or something 18:39 celeron55 Taoki: it won't be fixed in C++, it will be implemented in builtin as a wrapper function, as far as i understand 18:39 hmmmm yes, i originally proposed a builtin wrapper function for this 18:39 hmmmm "place schematic things the elegant but slow way" 18:40 Taoki Only thing that upset me is that hmmmm considers it's not a bug although the created structures are created incorrectly / brokenly. Just a thing of theory, but I don't get how that could be not a bug :P 18:40 hmmmm not a single doorknob left unpolished 18:40 Taoki Builtin sounds good too if that works better, sure 18:40 Taoki I already have the Lua-side formula 18:40 celeron55 Taoki: it's not a bug in hmmmm's code, you're just using the wrong interface (the interface you want to use doesn't exist yet and won't be made by hmmmm) 18:41 celeron55 or, well, this is how i understand it 18:41 hmmmm basically yeah 18:41 celeron55 i will of course come and punch each of you in the face if you don't somehow solve this 18:41 celeron55 go on 18:41 hmmmm i called upon others to write wrappers for voxelmanip/schematic things 18:41 Taoki celeron55: I thought minetest.create_schematic is the command you use directly in a mod. If that's intended to go through a buildin first, and not used as the raw function, that is different then 18:41 hmmmm voxelarea.lua was made by me for testing and i just happened to be kind enough to include that helper class 18:41 Taoki The Lua API specifies that as the command to use to create schematics though 18:42 Taoki If it's just something that wasn't added in place yet and is a known thing, that's ok too. Again I'm not saying "Aaah the feature I wanted is broken and you suck". 18:43 Taoki Just one thing I don't understand though; Why can't it be fixed in C++ in the schematic_import function? By adding the code that flips facedirs based on angle 18:44 hmmmm why can't it be fixed in Lua? 18:44 hmmmm the reason why it doesn't do it in C++ is because of all the extra checks required for the sake of handling a special edge case that's very rare 18:45 PilzAdam hmmmm, I have a problem to remove the air from my schematic file; I loop through the whole area with this https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5921533 and set every air nodes probability to -1, but the air nodes are still placed 18:45 celeron55 hmmmm: i'm curious though: how much more code does it even need? 18:45 celeron55 if done in C++, that is 18:45 hmmmm a special edge case that's only really present when used for things aside from its actual purpose 18:45 Taoki hmmmm: It can. I just thought it would be most correct for the import function to do it all correctly from the core. If it's fixed in Lua I don't mid (though that would require using the create_)schematic function through a different function, but again that's good too) 18:46 Taoki Also, it's not an "extremely rare case". There are probably lots of schematics that could use things with facedirs. 18:46 hmmmm PilzAdam, it depends on how you place it actually 18:46 hmmmm are you using place_schematic or placing it through the mapgen? 18:46 Taoki hmmmm: place_schematif cuntion 18:46 hmmmm i have place_schematic explicitly place air nodes 18:46 Taoki **function 18:46 PilzAdam place_schematic for testing, but its meant to be in mapgen later 18:47 PilzAdam oh, thats strange 18:47 Taoki Ah you meant PilzAdam, thought you asked me 18:47 hmmmm right, when it's being placed in the mapgen, i have air nodes not placed 18:47 hmmmm so it doesn't carve out odd pieces of map 18:47 hmmmm but i figured it'd be okay to force place them with place_schematic because it was completely intentional 18:48 hmmmm if you'd like me to allow you to toggle this behavior with place_schematic, i guess i can do that 18:48 PilzAdam well, if people want air to be placed then they dont set the probability to -1 18:48 hmmmm celeron, as for that, it's more or less the slippery slope i'm afraid of going down 18:49 celeron55 hmmmm: why? 18:49 celeron55 what do you expect to happen 18:49 hmmmm because then i handle a special param2 case 18:49 hmmmm now i have to handle everybody elses' special param2 cases 18:49 celeron55 ehm 18:49 celeron55 it's a param2 case that is also hardcoded in the client 18:49 hmmmm and now there's no excuse for me to not handle node metadata while i'm at it 18:50 celeron55 then i request you to proceed to making the lua wrapper 18:50 celeron55 if it doesn't exist in a matter of days, there will be only trouble 18:51 celeron55 or at least make an empty function in the right place so that someone can make it in the way you've thought it should be 18:51 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/806 fixes for formspec menu rebased to current master 18:51 hmmmm conceivably, though, it'd take a if (ndef->get(c).facedir) vm->m_data[i].setFaceDir(rotateFaceDir(blah, rot)); 18:51 celeron55 currently nobody really knows exactly what you think you want 18:51 celeron55 and it's a problem 18:52 hmmmm i'll think about what to do 18:52 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/805 i have added config setting to enable bumpmapping and bash tool to create basic normal maps with gimp 18:52 hmmmm i don't really want to cave on this 18:52 hmmmm PilzAdam, anyway sorry for not focusing before 18:52 hmmmm i want to really solve the problem now 18:53 hmmmm so you go through all that, check for air, and set it to 0 probability if that happens 18:53 hmmmm sounds reasonable 18:53 PilzAdam actually to -1 18:53 RealBadAngel that tool can make normal maps quickly but its highly advised to fine tune them later, different surfaces needs different settings 18:53 PilzAdam the docs say its never placed then 18:53 hmmmm well zero probability, i mean always placed if the prob parameter is 0 18:54 PilzAdam yea 18:54 hmmmm alright, i'll just say "never placed" or "always placed" from now on 18:54 hmmmm hrm, that looks right 18:54 hmmmm those hardcoded coordinates are absolute coordinates, right? 18:54 hmmmm not relative 18:55 PilzAdam yes 18:56 hmmmm and this table is being passed along to a create_schematic call, right? 18:56 hmmmm just making sur 18:57 PilzAdam yes 18:57 PilzAdam heres the whole code: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5921687 18:59 hmmmm that should be working 19:01 hmmmm now it could be that there are duplicate entries in the probability table 19:01 PilzAdam nope 19:01 PilzAdam oh well, Im pretty sure there arent 19:02 hmmmm and somehow the probability entries that set the node position to 186 come after the one that sets it to never place 19:02 hmmmm but that doesn't even matter because it'd be internally set to content ignore.... 19:02 hmmmm so after the 'never place' probability is applied you can overwrite the probability with anything and it'll never stick 19:02 hmmmm hmmm 19:03 Taoki hmmmm: Still taking suggestions on mapgen v7 (which for safety doesn't mean "do it now" or " do it cuz I want to")? 19:03 hmmmm taoki, i'm all ears 19:03 PilzAdam hmmmm, just tested it in mapgen with register_decoration() and it works fine 19:03 Taoki Wanted to ask if you could make the water node also a parameter of the biome definitions. So special biomes can have their different water types 19:04 hmmmm sure, why not i guess 19:04 Taoki Nice :) Could be useful for realms 19:05 hmmmm pilzadam, of course it works fine when placing it as a decoration because air is never placed 19:06 PilzAdam DecoSchematic::resolveNodeNames: node 'ignore' not defined 19:06 hmmmm well that'll explain why that happens 19:07 hmmmm okay WTF. 19:07 hmmmm we know what the problem is at least 19:07 Taoki PilzAdam: I get that warning too with Structures mod when using schematics. Thought it's just me 19:08 Taoki But if not, I can confirm 19:08 hmmmm that's literally not right though. "ignore" is always present, always always 19:08 hmmmm oh 19:08 hmmmm i see what the problem is 19:08 hmmmm :) 19:08 PilzAdam hmmmm, it writes "ignore" to the schematic file when prob=-1, right? 19:08 hmmmm yes, i'll fix that 19:09 hmmmm it's the way i handle errors in resolveNodeName() 19:09 hmmmm now only one question remains... why didn't i encounter this error when i was testing it? 19:10 PilzAdam if 2 biomes have the same heat and humidity then only the first one is generated 19:10 hmmmm yup 19:11 hmmmm you were expecting something else? 19:11 PilzAdam no, just making sure that Im not blind 19:11 PilzAdam what are the ranges for heat and humidity? 19:12 PilzAdam 0 to 100? 19:12 hmmmm i don't really know 19:12 hmmmm fixing the ranges to be 0 to 100 was on my todo list 19:13 PilzAdam and the average is 50? 19:14 hmmmm i *assume* that perlin noise values have a normal distribution, and that the max value is M = p^0 + p^1 + p^2 + ... + p^n where p = persistence, and n = number of octaves 19:14 hmmmm and the minimum is -M 19:15 hmmmm (1 - pow(np->persist, np->octaves + 1)) / (1 - np->persist) would be the maximum 19:16 RealBadAngel anybody with suggestions/ideas on #805? 19:16 PilzAdam hmmmm, I see a problem with trees when placed as schematic: some trunks are blocked by the leaves of another tree 19:16 hmmmm and of course, 0 would be the average value 19:17 hmmmm pilzadam, that's a bit tougher to solve 19:17 hmmmm now you're saying you want placement priorities 19:18 PilzAdam :-) 19:19 PilzAdam or just say that schematics override other schematics 19:19 PilzAdam oh, that wouldnt work 19:22 RealBadAngel sapier i got reports that latest changes broke completely formspec backgrounds 19:23 RealBadAngel ERROR[main]: Invalid pos for element background specified 19:23 hmmmm oh.... actually sorry, the max value would be M = p^0 + p^1 + ... + p^(n-1) 19:24 hmmmm so the max value of perlin noise is (1 - pow(np->persist, np->octaves) / (1 - np->persist) 19:24 sapier rba I'll have a look 19:25 RealBadAngel sapier, ask VanessaE about details, i operating now on the tree that is a day behind, so im not familiar with the errors 19:26 hmmmm i'm not sure if 50 is the average value, but probably not.. i made it so that it resembles an average value but again i need to do actual work on it 19:27 sapier VanessaE can you give additional information about the background error? I changed almost everything there but it should work as before ;-) 19:27 hmmmm to translate your noise into having the average value you'd want in your distribution, you'd need noise * scale + offset, where scale is the std dev of your distribution, and offset is the average you'd like to have 19:28 hmmmm just don't bother coding things for biomes yet, all of it still blows a lot 19:29 sokomine hmmmm: i'd still love to have a parameter node_replacement_list for place_schematic where you could tell it to e.g. use "ignore" for all nodes of "air" in the .mts file, and "air" for e.g. all nodes marked with wool:yellow (air inside a house is very important - outside it can be other scenery), or to use default:cobble instead of default:wooden_planks and so on. that would allow more variety. and the .mts file seems to be constr 19:30 hmmmm i'll consider it 19:33 VanessaE sapier: ok, two things. One, menu backgrounds are refusing to display anything but what's part of my game modes or the defaults. Images supplied by HDX are no longer being displayed in the menu. 19:34 VanessaE two, and I don't know if this is related, formspec background images, such as those supported by Unified Inventory, are not being displayed either, citing the above "invalid pos" error (many such) every time I open the formspec e.g. the inventory display. 19:34 sapier can you give an example for background formspec? the message rba posted indicates the formspec not beeing correct (at least what I expected to be correct) 19:34 VanessaE easiest way to see both in effect by installing any resolution of HDX and visit my server. 19:35 VanessaE s/by installing/is to install/ 19:35 VanessaE code-wise, I cannot (but RBA can :P ) 19:36 sapier RealBadAngel can you give me an example for the background formspec tag now considered wrong? ;-) 19:36 VanessaE the formspec backgrounds might just be a mod bug, but I'm pretty sure the main menu backgrounds are your fault :P 19:36 VanessaE :) 19:37 RealBadAngel idk which are causing errors, but i can give you sample usage 19:37 sapier no formspec was almost completely rewritten for mainmenu too sometimes guessing what code was intended to do 19:37 VanessaE so it's possible that breaking one broke both. 19:37 sapier yes 19:37 sapier possible but from what you tell I'd expect different errors 19:38 RealBadAngel http://pastebin.com/0DqLgUzL 19:38 PilzAdam hmmmm, for now v7 does exactly what I want, just generate ocean, sand grasslands and forest 19:38 RealBadAngel all the backgrounds used by UI 19:38 PilzAdam +, 19:38 sapier why is there an additional "," after y pos? 19:38 VanessaE RealBadAngel: maybe the final comma? 19:38 VanessaE what sapier said. 19:39 sapier that's the problem I check if position is exactly 2 elements 19:39 RealBadAngel hallo, VanessaE, its YOUR code 19:39 sapier with additional , its 3 x,y, 19:40 PilzAdam hmmmm, just one thing, where does minetest search for the schematic file? 19:40 PilzAdam I currently use the full path, wich isnt a good solution 19:41 hmmmm it's relative to the executable 19:41 sapier ok this one is clear now the other one backgrounds not shown how are hdx images supplied vanessa? 19:41 hmmmm a solution would be to call get_modpath() during the initialization, store it, and then use that to get the schematic from your mod 19:42 RealBadAngel VanessaE, can you confirm removal of comma helps? 19:43 VanessaE I'll try it, hold. 19:43 PilzAdam hmmmm, oh, and I think would just encourage that _ format for biomes 19:43 PilzAdam s/_/: 19:45 VanessaE RealBadAngel: confirmed, removing the commas fixed the issue. 19:45 VanessaE there were about 8 or so instances among that section of code, suggest you search for others also. 19:45 RealBadAngel ok i will update technic and technic_game soon 19:46 VanessaE sapier: correct on the HDX part - those menu splash/background images have been there for months now, and stopped displaying with my latest pull, so I can only assume it was your menu formspec code. 19:46 PilzAdam hmmmm, Im sure you know that already, but there are problems with the height interpolation between bioms (i.e. 2 node difference for me) 19:47 sapier yes most likely ... we're talking about singleplayer tab only right? 19:47 VanessaE sapier: also, the "Client" tab keeps losing the last Address/Port I connected to. 19:47 VanessaE no sir, all tabs display the "only shows the default images" isuse. 19:47 VanessaE issue* 19:48 VanessaE also, the game icons need to stay at the bottom of the window regardless of window size. 19:48 sapier ok currently background is only set for singleplayer tab didn't know there should be something shown on other tabs too 19:49 sokomine hmmmm: thank you for considering it! such a node replacement would be best done at that location imho. i need it for all my houses. spawning them always with the same materials would be boring, and getting ignore-nodes would otherwise be pretty difficult 19:49 sapier last one can't be fixed without major formspec rewrite vanessa 19:49 VanessaE when I maximize, the icons are moved up several cm, as if the whole thing is matted onto an 800x600 canvas. 19:50 VanessaE sorry, this menu formspec thing, honestly, is slightly worse than what came before 19:50 sapier it's a single formspec either everything is scaled or nothing ... first version did scale menu too that wasn't accepted 19:51 sapier but back to things that can be fixed 19:51 sapier the hdx image how are they expected to behave? 19:51 VanessaE sapier: identically to the default images. 19:52 VanessaE they just replace them when the texture pack is configured to be used via minetest.conf 19:52 VanessaE (I don't use textures/all except for a couple of font files) 19:53 VanessaE sapier: download the 16px size of HDX (it's about 20MB), configure minetest.conf to point to it (texture_path=/foo/bar/HDX-16px) and you'll see what I mean 19:53 sapier ok I guess thats easy to fix 19:53 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2003092013%20-%2001:46:02%20PM.png 19:53 VanessaE her's what it used to look like 19:53 VanessaE (except I've since changed that text and added a resolution identifier at the bottom) 19:54 VanessaE here* 19:55 hmmmm pilzadam, what do you mean? 19:55 hmmmm about the format for biomes (you never told me about anything like this before) 19:55 hmmmm and you're using a different number of topnodes i take it 19:56 PilzAdam http://mg.viewskew.com/mgoblin_media/media_entries/62/MapgenBug.png 19:57 hmmmm for now, set the number of top nodes to the same value 19:57 PilzAdam is that because of a top_depth difference of one? 19:57 hmmmm yes 19:57 hmmmm i'm redoing that entire thing soon 19:58 PilzAdam k 19:58 hmmmm the number of top nodes will fill up to the height at that point 19:58 hmmmm so instead of the ground height being 0, and 2 top nodes, making the new ground height 2, it'll just subtract 2 from the ground height and it'll be 0 19:59 hmmmm also i'm thinking of varying depth of top nodes by perlin noise like v6, but it'll be varied depth instead of height (like minecraft does iirc) 20:07 sapier VanessaE game specific backgrounds override texture specific ones right? 20:07 VanessaE if there's no texture pack, yeah 20:08 VanessaE if there's a texture pack, then the pack's images override all 20:08 sapier even game? 20:08 VanessaE per menu, of course 20:08 VanessaE *nod* even the game 20:08 VanessaE HDX has images for the default menu, minetest_game and my game. 20:08 sapier sounds wrong to me but if it's already done this way I'm gonna rebuild it 20:08 VanessaE (others will follow sooner or later) 20:09 sapier wait you post additional images within the texture pack? 20:09 VanessaE yep. 20:09 sapier great .... why do we always need to do same thing 100 different ways 20:09 VanessaE several of us kinda hemmed and hawed over it until we settled on this method. 20:10 VanessaE default imagery first, then game-specific imagery if it's provided by the game, then texture-pack-specific imagery overrides those. 20:10 sapier dosn't change the fact that this adds lots of useless complexity 20:11 sapier how are filenames specified within a texture pack? 20:14 VanessaE menu_header.png, menu_overlay.png, minetest_menu_header.png, minetest_menu_overlay.png, vanessae_menu_overlay.png 20:16 sapier doesn't help I can't hardcode names ;-) first is gameid? 20:16 VanessaE so if not the default menu, then it's [gameid]_menu_xxxx.png 20:16 VanessaE where xxx = header, overlay, etc. 20:20 celeron55 i don't get sapier's fear of trying a couple of filenames 20:21 celeron55 if you can't cope with that kind of complexity easily, you're a pretty useless coder 20:21 VanessaE celeron55: hush, let the man fix what he broke instead of disparaging him. 20:21 celeron55 seriously; i know it takes a bit more effort but it just is worth the bit 20:21 sapier it's not a fear but a wast try this try that try something else then try next 20:22 sapier if a texure pack doesn't supply a menu image fallback to default? 20:24 celeron55 it's an order of priority 20:24 sapier no it's an order of trial and error 20:24 celeron55 1) texture pack, 2) game, 3) default 20:24 celeron55 ... 20:24 sapier don't blame me for filling up the logs ;-P you wanted me to do it 20:25 celeron55 do you realize all of that is *obviously* needed? 20:25 celeron55 we can't drop out defaults, we can't drop out games, we can't drop out texture packs 20:25 celeron55 because none of that would make any sense 20:26 celeron55 and because of that, there's no reason to complain 20:26 sapier no it's not it's pushing at least 2 different aproaches into a single menu 20:26 sapier resulting in a menu that doesn't really fit any of the two aproaches 20:26 sapier but I'm tired of argueing if you want it that way I'll put it in 20:27 celeron55 i know it's inconsistent in that way, but that's not the programmer's problem 20:27 celeron55 it's waiting for a proper redesign 20:27 celeron55 designing a menu while coding it isn't really a good idea 20:27 sapier the formspec menu gives anyone chance to adapt the menu to whatever she/he needs for his game 20:28 sapier putting all in one results in a default menu is exactly opposit direction ;-) 20:28 celeron55 if you want to redesign it, you could do it; just split it somehow so that it makes sense and allows that adaptation sanely 20:29 sapier it already is separated any game can set it's own menu ... of course it'd need to adapt the main menu somehow but the more we blow up the main menu the more difficult for someone to strip of unneded parts 20:30 sapier and there already are lots of things in not really needed for it to do purpose of a main menu 20:31 celeron55 two options: make it work like before, or make it work better 20:33 sapier I choose work as before as "work better" is a 100% subjective target that can't be achieved in general 20:34 sapier but I deny any blames about complexity that's not my fault 20:35 VanessaE sapier: it's your fault anyway, just because :) 20:36 sapier I wonder if I somehow could hide a if vanessae then crash in code .... hmmm 20:36 VanessaE :P 20:37 VanessaE I manage to find ways to crash the game/server without any help anyways :D 20:38 RealBadAngel so folks, can i count on any comments on my bumpmapping code? 20:39 khonkhortisan_ I like it 20:44 sapier what about the logo? 20:45 VanessaE what about it? 20:45 sapier texture pack specific too? 20:45 VanessaE everything needs to be 20:45 VanessaE imho 20:45 VanessaE if it is supplied as an image somewhere under minetest/ or minetest_game/, it should be possible for a texture pack to replace it. 20:45 VanessaE (or another game mode of course) 20:46 sapier lol you don't really know how much texture operations this will cause ;-) 20:46 VanessaE heh 20:46 VanessaE I suppose not :) 20:46 sapier hmm ... no actually I can't add a fallback for in formspec images 20:47 VanessaE well then leave those be for now 20:47 VanessaE what's more important is the imagery around/behind the menu 20:48 sapier I'll make everything texturepackspecific except the logo 20:49 VanessaE the logo? 20:49 sapier in credits 20:49 VanessaE oh in the credits tab? 20:49 VanessaE meh, that's fine the way it is 20:49 sapier and the icons in game selector will stay as game specifies too 20:50 VanessaE note btw that with my "bigger, sharper" font, lots of stuff is now overwriting other stuff just a bit when it didn't before. 20:50 sapier should be same for ingame formspecs too I guess 20:50 VanessaE in-game formspecs work fine with texture packs. 20:51 sapier I was talking about the font ;-) 20:51 sapier ingame uses texture cache which isn't available before client startup 20:51 sapier so all images used in mainmenu are explicitly loaded 20:51 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2002272013%20-%2007:48:22%20PM.png 20:52 VanessaE this is provided by HDX, for example 20:52 VanessaE and btw, that part still works after those comma changes. 20:52 VanessaE right, so you probably need not to anything special about in-game formspec textures, those work fine 20:53 VanessaE (as long as RealBadAngel doesn't fuck up ;) ) 20:54 sapier ok plz have a look at that pull request I recently mentioned I just added the image fixes there 20:55 sapier I couln't test the game/texture pack specific things as I don't have any supported game installed atm 20:56 VanessaE ok, I'll pull it and see how it behaves. 20:56 sapier at least it shows texture pack backgrounds &co for other tabs 20:58 VanessaE sapier: *shakes head* that did nothing. 20:59 sapier do you specify a full path in texture_path or a relative one? 20:59 VanessaE in the singleplayer tab, I see the image from the selected game - but it's the one the game provides. In all other tabs, just the clouds and nothing else. 20:59 VanessaE it's a full path. 20:59 sapier ooohh 20:59 sapier try relative to minetest folder I'll fix that 20:59 VanessaE afaik that's how it has to be, since I'm using a system-wide install. 21:00 VanessaE no good, relative to ~./minetest (means ../Minetest-textures-and-mods/......) does nothing to the menu; textures still work in-game though 21:01 VanessaE did you make sure to set the image scaling properly? if it's wrong, an image simply isn't drawn I guess 21:01 sapier no it's just looking at wrong location atm 21:01 VanessaE ok 21:05 sapier ok now using absolute path 21:07 VanessaE oh sure, now github starts to flake out on my. 21:07 VanessaE me* 21:10 sapier :-) me too 21:15 VanessaE ok, trying it now. 21:15 VanessaE yay! 21:15 VanessaE MUCH better 21:15 sapier do texture pack specific game backgrounds work too? 21:15 VanessaE yes 21:15 sapier good 21:15 VanessaE it's back to normal 21:15 VanessaE now, about the game selection bar. 21:16 VanessaE surely there's some way to detect where the bottom of the window is? 21:16 VanessaE (and move it to there 21:16 VanessaE ) 21:16 sapier imagebuttons are specified by pos 21:16 sapier pos is relative to topleft corner of menu ... not even screen 21:17 VanessaE this is going to cause a problem then 21:17 sapier without adding a completely different positioning scheme it's not possible ... if adding it it needs to be added for all elements 21:17 VanessaE because it basically means nothing can be reliably placed into the footer area 21:18 VanessaE at 800x600 for example, it just overwrites the bottom edge of the title for my game, but maximized to 1280x1024, it overwrites the top half of that same title 21:18 sapier true ... only way to do so requires redefinition of formspec syntax 21:19 sapier of course we could do a quick n dirty hack but I hate those ones as they tend to grow and grow and grow ... resulting in such monsters as the engine <-> game <-> modengine triple purpose mainmanu currently implemented 21:20 sapier imho if a game wants special menu features it should implement its own menu 21:20 VanessaE I could move my title images to the top of course, but that doesn't fix the real issue 21:20 VanessaE yeah but this happens on any game screen 21:20 VanessaE the problem is where the game selection bar is placed, not the rest of the menu 21:21 sapier imho there's no issue just a missing feature that can be set to todo ... but imho this is only worth adding if formspec is completely redesigned 21:21 sokomine hmmmm: could you make the minetest schematic file format (.mts) accessible through lua? that is, add a minetest.read_schematic( filename ) function (that could be done evnen now with just the definition of the file format), allow manipulation of said data (e.g. i'd really like to rewrite the node-name-list part; reading how large the schematic is is also virtually important; rotation and handling of param2 could also be done wit 21:21 sapier the game selection bar is part of the menu even if it looks not exactly like that 21:21 VanessaE no, this has to be changed, because you're overwriting part of a game-supplied image in a way the game cannot predict 21:22 sapier it's not placed at the end of screen that's just an illusion 21:22 VanessaE the bar needs to be at the bottom left corner of the window regardless of the size of the window 21:23 sokomine the point would then be to accept a differently formated lua table - one very close to the mts file format - to be passed on to place_schematic. i think that would help a lot! the table ought to contain all the variables with their values the same way as the .mts file (just as part of a lua table). expanding the table to the full {nodename, param1, param2} format as could be done right now seems very inconvenient and impractical 21:24 sapier I'll put that at the end of my list as I don't consider this a bug, it's 100% exactly predictable where the bar is either 21:24 VanessaE nonono you're overcomplicating it 21:24 sapier no I'm not there is NO way to tell a formspec to place something relative to anything else then topleft corner of formspec menu 21:24 VanessaE am I right in assuming negative values aren't allowed in a formspec item's coordinates? 21:24 sapier they are 21:25 VanessaE ok 21:25 sapier but for most elements placed outside of menu box they won't be shown 21:25 VanessaE then how about adding some other character instead of a - sign, say an underscore or something, that signifies "relative to lower left of the window"? 21:25 sapier I've added special handling for some of them to avoid them beeing hidden 21:26 VanessaE so if I were to give a position of _123,_456 this should mean to draw the image starting at -123,-456 from the bottom left of the window. 21:26 sapier ok A for topleft B for topright C for bottomleft D for bottomright a for topleftmenu b for toprightmenu c for bottomleftmenu and d for bottomrightmenu 21:27 sapier and of course mixed coordinates are allowed too 21:27 VanessaE well if you want to go that far, sure, but I'm just trying to replicate the previous layout. 21:27 sapier no I won't add a new coordinate system for now at all ... once all important bugs are fixed I'm gonna considering that 21:28 VanessaE this is a bug - it breaks the formatting of a person's game screen layout. 21:28 sapier coordinate system in formspec is already crap as some are padded some aligned some use default offsets some not 21:28 sapier no it's a change in behaviour 21:29 RealBadAngel sapier, an idea, could you make main menu music dependent on game selected? 21:29 RealBadAngel so the game should provide music file 21:29 VanessaE sapier: it needs fixed. I don't care if it means taking the game selection icons out of the formspec and hard-coding them like before. 21:29 VanessaE it's wrong and it breaks things. 21:29 sapier no music isn't handled by mainmenu at all atm 21:29 VanessaE RealBadAngel: don't change the subject. 21:30 RealBadAngel it was the offtopic idea, sorry 21:30 sapier vanessa I already tried that it's not possible to have two different menus shown at same time 21:30 VanessaE then make it possible :) 21:30 sapier plain no 21:31 VanessaE well then I'd have to move to revert the formspec menu until it can be made possible. 21:31 sapier make them revert it back to c++ menu or live with it until a sane solution has been found 21:33 sapier I'm tired of having to readd all bugs until concept of a addition is completely lost so you can't threaten me by it if you thing the new features modmanager/gamemanager online modstore automated zip modinstall aren't worth giving up some bad habit just revert it 21:33 VanessaE who's threatening? 21:34 VanessaE I'm just saying not to replace something that works with something else that's less capable is all 21:34 VanessaE (for once, celeron55 and I agree) 21:34 sapier It's even more capable but different 21:34 VanessaE yes, different enough to break existing stuff in ways that the existing stuff's authors *can't fix* 21:37 VanessaE if the authors of the broken stuff could fix their stuff to work with the new model, that would have been perfectly fine to change the model. 21:37 RealBadAngel VanessaE, damn u ;) i have copied that coma after you into 20+ formspecs ;) 21:37 VanessaE but the new method breaks the ability to use a footer for anything meaningful (it's supposed to be for displaying some info about the game) 21:38 VanessaE RealBadAngel: sucks to be you :P :) 21:38 sapier what about replacing the bottombar by a sidebar? 21:38 sapier no wont help 21:38 VanessaE you mean the game selector? 21:39 sapier bad idea won't help either 21:39 RealBadAngel anyway technic is updated, technic_game update will follow soon 21:39 VanessaE if you were to make the game selector part of the menu section with just a tiny offset, that would work 21:39 VanessaE because then the game's/texture pack's menu footer could be moved to the bottom of the window and would never be overwritten 21:40 sapier ok that'd be a minor change 21:40 VanessaE make it the same width as a menu, with a really thin space between it and the menu, or part of the menu with a horizontal rule 21:41 VanessaE you may want to consider shifting whole apparatus upwards by 20 or so pixels to keep it centered. 21:41 VanessaE but that's purely cosmetic 21:42 VanessaE and make the selection bar just a bit thinner - don't waste too much space above/below 21:42 VanessaE and... and... and.. ;) 21:45 RealBadAngel technic_game is also updated 21:50 sapier have a look at new variant vanessae 21:50 VanessaE oh sure, blame me eh :) 21:51 VanessaE that's PERFECT 21:51 VanessaE well, almost ;) 21:51 sapier ok hope now pilzadam isn't upset the other one was the version he could accept 21:51 VanessaE maybe a white horizontal line 21:51 PilzAdam hm? 21:52 VanessaE instead of the gap between the two parts 21:52 sapier gamebar 21:52 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2007032013%20-%2005:52:40%20PM.png 21:52 VanessaE PilzAdam: ^^^^^ 21:53 RealBadAngel i would like to ask again, really no one core dev but c55 have an opinion on bumpmapping? :P 21:53 VanessaE sapier: yeah, put a thin white line between the menu and the game selector, instead of the thin gap. that'll look better 21:53 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, I wonder why you start throwing lighting related features in if we dont have hardware lighting yet 21:54 RealBadAngel first of all because it works 21:54 RealBadAngel and works perfectly 21:54 RealBadAngel we do have already 3 texture packs that support it 21:55 RealBadAngel code is tested for over a month 21:55 RealBadAngel need more reasons? 21:55 sapier this way? 21:55 RealBadAngel lemme throw the next one, i dont want to rebase it a few time a week to use it 21:58 RealBadAngel also i rebased it now after removal of atlas, so i think its a good point in the timeline 22:00 RealBadAngel about hw lighting (or fake ones which is more propably) using them in shaders code will just mean to pass the coords instead of using fixed one 22:01 RealBadAngel and im not starting throwing anythin. im workin on shaders for over a month already 22:02 RealBadAngel repo was aviable for testin for over 4 weeks 22:03 RealBadAngel and the code is damn well tested 22:03 VanessaE sapier: yes, exactly so 22:03 VanessaE that's good 22:03 VanessaE now, one last tweak? 22:04 VanessaE add a few pixels of space above/below the icons - you cropped the bar a little too thin 22:04 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, have you even tried it? 22:05 PilzAdam yea, I tried it some time ago 22:05 hmmmm i have an opinion on bumpmapping, i think it looks really neat, and we'll be a step ahead once we *do* get hardware lighting 22:05 sapier better? 22:06 RealBadAngel gimme a bulb and it will be alive. 22:06 RealBadAngel by now it just works 22:06 VanessaE sapier: yes, that's good. I'd say go with exactly that 22:06 RealBadAngel i dont really need a hw lights 22:06 VanessaE squash those commits and merge the bastard :) 22:07 RealBadAngel i need coords of them just 22:07 sapier ok now lets hope next one doesn't require exactly oposite 22:07 RealBadAngel we dont have even sun coords yet 22:08 RealBadAngel with this one thing i could release a few more shaders including water surfaces 22:08 VanessaE sapier: Abe (husband) gives his "thumbs up" also ;) 22:09 hmmmm you people... 22:09 hmmmm i'd be embarassed as hell if any of my family knew about minetest 22:09 VanessaE lol 22:10 VanessaE hmmmm: actually, the last couple of times someone else has seen minetest on my box, they were like "you play minecraft!" 22:10 VanessaE (and they meant it in a good way) 22:10 hmmmm if my mom saw it she'd be like "don't you do anything else on that damn computer except play video games?" 22:10 hmmmm "i hate that video game" 22:10 VanessaE that was my parents years ago 22:10 RealBadAngel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEoyEgsgig 22:10 hmmmm it's just best to not let them know anything at all 22:10 Anchakor you should react to that with switching to porn 22:11 RealBadAngel this is water surface made by shaders 22:11 VanessaE excpet I was expected to somehow magically make money with my computer. 22:11 sapier once modmanager is enabled by default minetest will become way more userfriendly 22:11 hmmmm yeah 22:11 sapier btw did anyone test it? 22:11 hmmmm it's like if you're not making money by doing things on your computer, it's useless 22:11 VanessaE hmmmm: yep. basically. 22:12 RealBadAngel its not useless, its a hobby 22:12 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, IIRC I have reported some problems with water when running your code 22:12 VanessaE hmmmm: it comes from the attitude that if you're not making money with all of your available spare time, your activities are useless in general, and I think that's crap 22:12 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, thats why code is not pulled yet 22:13 hmmmm the whole 'time is money' idea you always hear lawyers say, yeah... richard stallman has a quote about this 22:13 RealBadAngel i learned from my mistakes and im pulling now only things im 100% sure that are workin 22:13 VanessaE hmmmm: and I'm sick-and-G*d-damned-tired of it, too 22:15 RealBadAngel compile my pull, use https://github.com/RealBadAngel/sphax256 or https://github.com/RealBadAngel/HavenTP and see for yourself 22:15 RealBadAngel or ask VanessaE for HDX link 22:16 VanessaE https://github.com/VanessaE/hdx-256 22:16 VanessaE sapier: you missed a commit in your squash? 22:16 RealBadAngel and feel the difference 22:16 VanessaE oh I see what you did, nm 22:17 sapier should be ok isn't it? 22:17 VanessaE sapier: yeah, fine by me, but it's PilzAdam and/or hmmmm and/or RealBadAngel that have to make it offiical :) 22:17 VanessaE (random pings ;) ) 22:17 proller sapier, server - "public" checkbox lost 22:17 hmmmm from the screenshot it seems really nice 22:17 hmmmm screenshots rather 22:18 RealBadAngel hmmm, i ask for gameplay feel 22:18 RealBadAngel screenshots are worth shit 22:18 sapier proller what does this checkbox do? 22:18 hmmmm ev.. 22:18 hmmmm eh....* i trust it's good 22:18 proller sapier, enable server announce 22:18 hmmmm if it's not good i can just turn it off 22:19 RealBadAngel move your asses guys and check this out 22:19 hmmmm busy 22:19 RealBadAngel that really changes the gameplay feelin 22:19 VanessaE proller: you know, I have to wonder if there's a point to that 22:19 RealBadAngel world has a depth now 22:19 sapier isn't that a setting? can you post a screenshot? I don't have curl compiled in normaly 22:19 VanessaE proller: because you still need to be able to set the server URL, name, description, etc. for the announce to work properly 22:20 proller no, its works without 22:20 VanessaE imho there's no reason to announce on the public list from the GUI, because 99% of server owners won't use that 22:21 RealBadAngel VanessaE, theres a reason, newbies will see that something is goin on here 22:21 proller no reason in server tab, because 99% servers dont use that 22:21 VanessaE well I guess. 22:22 VanessaE proller: so you'd rather announce from the Client tab then? 22:22 RealBadAngel let the newbies use it simple way 22:22 proller RealBadAngel, +1 22:22 VanessaE ok, fair 22:23 proller you can create server and share to friends in one click 22:23 RealBadAngel genau 22:24 proller sapier, it use enable_public 22:24 RealBadAngel forget about this 99% 22:24 VanessaE proller: plus multiple clicks through your firewall/router ;) 22:24 RealBadAngel it is by now 99% hardcore users 22:24 RealBadAngel not the newbies from outside 22:24 proller not everyone have firewall 22:25 proller and one step to make public server via ipv6 without routers 22:25 VanessaE proller: I was kidding :) 22:26 RealBadAngel what minetest lacks the most by now is not hw lights, new menu or whatever 22:26 RealBadAngel its a lack of click n play for total greenhorns 22:27 RealBadAngel or the kids 22:27 sapier proller only until ppl realize they need to setup their firewall properly for ipv6 22:27 RealBadAngel my friends family that lives in Berlin plays minetest on their home network 22:28 proller after we can make game via sctp 8) 22:28 RealBadAngel dad, mom and a kid 22:28 RealBadAngel but i have to set everthin up for them 22:29 sapier what about adding a lan discovery feature? 22:29 RealBadAngel theyre simply fuckin unable to solve all the problem that we, developers just dont see 22:30 sapier that's why I added modstore and modinstall gui ;-P 22:30 RealBadAngel deps, builds, configs etc 22:30 sapier first is "install a mod" ;) 22:30 RealBadAngel then whole tragedy starts 22:31 proller sapier, cant make screenshot. it was simple chechbox, named "Public" with value from "server_announce", and saves value too 22:31 RealBadAngel "i did everythin right but it crashes!" 22:31 sapier and where to get the server address from? 22:31 proller no need 22:31 proller its automatic 22:32 sapier are you sure it's hardcoded? 22:32 proller masterserver gets ip from announce request 22:32 sapier announce request? do we already have lan discovery? 22:33 proller http://servers.minetest.net/ 22:33 sapier that'd be a hardcoded address 22:33 proller no address 22:33 proller empty in config by default 22:33 sapier no it really is hardcoded 22:34 sapier defaultsettings l 135 22:34 sapier but not now Its past midnight ;-P 22:34 proller no! 22:34 proller that'd be a hardcoded address 22:34 sapier gn8 22:34 proller ups 22:35 RealBadAngel hehe 22:35 proller 138 settings->setDefault("server_url", ""); 22:35 proller 139 settings->setDefault("server_address", ""); 22:35 proller 140 settings->setDefault("server_name", ""); 22:35 proller 141 settings->setDefault("server_description", ""); 22:35 proller optional params 22:35 proller you can make gui for it 22:35 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, so? have you tested current state? 22:35 proller no, cant 22:36 hmmmm hey proller, just wondering, was there any specific reason why you chose to use mapgen v7 for your math mapgen? 22:36 proller hmmmm, to use biomes and trees in future 22:36 hmmmm i see 22:37 RealBadAngel when you guys need trees related info just let me know 22:37 proller to create main structure from stone, and fill later with dirt, trees, etc 22:37 proller to simply make ores 22:38 proller and caves if player wants 22:39 RealBadAngel VanessaE, i just scrolled up a bit, i missed that. Say "hallo" to Abe 22:39 VanessaE he says hi :) 22:41 proller if you set spawn point to top of mandelbox - it can be used as usual world but with different underground 22:42 RealBadAngel hmmmm, could you turn green light for me to start publishin all those eye candy shaders? 22:42 hmmmm you've had the green light for quite a while now... 22:43 RealBadAngel but im following the rules 22:43 proller after PilzAdam go to sleep? 8-) 22:43 RealBadAngel 2 of devs have to agree 22:43 * proller agree but too small dev 22:44 RealBadAngel proller, thats a best time to post somethin that is not minecraftish 22:44 RealBadAngel ;) 22:44 RealBadAngel but still mc has Sonic's shaders 22:45 RealBadAngel i do know their code 22:45 RealBadAngel also terasology ones and a few more 22:46 hmmmm zzz, just push it to upstream already 22:46 RealBadAngel i have readed fucking lotsa shaders code last time 22:46 hmmmm even if it's horribly broken, there's still an option to disable it 22:46 RealBadAngel its disabled by default, even with shaders on 22:47 RealBadAngel thats why i asked about separate shaders settings window 22:47 RealBadAngel all those eye candies will consume lotsa computing power 22:48 RealBadAngel but hey, thats why we are all workin for, to buy better boxes ;) 22:48 proller now every mobile phone have gpu 22:49 proller but on odroid still black screen 8( 22:49 VanessaE Shaders as a button in the "Settings" tab, like the "Change keys" button, would make sense 22:52 proller ingame public serverlist broken 22:53 proller sapier wakeup! 8) 22:57 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, your bumpmapping code is at RealBadAngel/master ? 22:59 PilzAdam its broken 23:00 PilzAdam everything is red with default textures and shaders enabled 23:04 RealBadAngel when have you downloaded the code? 23:04 RealBadAngel i already fixed that issue 23:04 PilzAdam 4 minutes ago 23:04 RealBadAngel hold on a sec 23:05 RealBadAngel ah fixed but not pushed 23:05 PilzAdam so, this is "tested for 4 weeks" :-p 23:09 hmmmm :-q 23:11 sokomine idea for rollback: announce it on the server so that people may prepare for lag and won't log out in panic 23:11 sokomine it's ok if the actual rollback takes time. just a server message might be helpful 23:14 proller btw is anybody tries rollback with liquid_finite? 23:16 proller rollback flag - its 3 minute to code 23:17 proller i think to add full mod list with first announce (not include in every minute ping) 23:18 sokomine the issue with rollback is mostly that rollback_check is incredably slow and unusable. the information it provides comes at a very high price (=long lag for everyone) and is of limited value as it shows only the latest action in the vicinity. i've written a simple mod that uses external grep for the check 23:19 sokomine rollback as such is ok. just that message to all as a server announce before an actual rollback is done would be helpful 23:23 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, this is todays request from c55 23:23 RealBadAngel to let it disable when user has not powerfull enough gfx card 23:24 RealBadAngel its fixed already, please hold on for commit 23:24 RealBadAngel i dont wanna screw anythin when commiting 23:25 RealBadAngel hurry is good for youngsters, i like to think twice 23:30 proller pu-pu-pu-push it 8) 23:32 VanessaE real good? :) 23:35 RealBadAngel checkin the commit now 23:35 RealBadAngel dont push me ;) 23:50 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, did you fell asleep? 23:50 VanessaE fall* 23:50 PilzAdam *fail 23:52 RealBadAngel actually no 23:52 RealBadAngel im ready to press the button 23:52 RealBadAngel i just triple checked the commit 23:52 VanessaE "Remember the little red button? Push the little red button!" 23:52 PilzAdam you know, there is this thing called force push 23:52 VanessaE "..and you better put on your seatbelt." 23:53 RealBadAngel hehe 23:53 PilzAdam you can push whatever crap you want and override it easily 23:53 RealBadAngel i think i will compile it to be sure 23:53 RealBadAngel gimme 2 minutes :) 23:55 RealBadAngel yeah, thats the best test. compiling it now 23:55 RealBadAngel i had to rebase two files that sapier changed 23:56 PilzAdam inb4 Minetest 1.0 released 23:57 RealBadAngel dont laugh, last time i thought that "dont push the green button" is a joke for a newbie :P 23:57 sokomine strange behaviour of rollback: the server reports success - and then shuts down. unfortionately, i have no access to its logfiles. what is so strange is that the actions in my immediate vicinity are undone - and then the server shuts down - and the griefing is back again 23:58 sokomine green button? :-) 23:58 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, you push to your fork, nobody cares about that 23:58 RealBadAngel "merge" 23:58 RealBadAngel i thought that it was the joke because there were no other one to push ;)