Time  Nick         Message
07:25 Dormo        Hey, can anyone help me? I fixed a bug in Minetest, and the fix doesn't appear to break anything else, but I think it might and I just can't think of an edge case.
07:26 kaeza        Dormo, can you be more specific?
07:27 kaeza        what bug?
07:27 Dormo        There was a bug filed that mentioned if youre falling from any hight while holding shift (sneak) and land on a slab (stairs), no damage occurs
07:28 Dormo        you also remain in the air above the slab until you let go of sneak
07:29 kaeza        Dormo, open a pull request for it so others can review it
07:30 Dormo        Alright. Thanks
07:30 Dormo        I was just worried it'd get accepted blindly and break other things.
07:32 celeron55    that's not a concern here 8)
07:33 celeron55    (it doesn't mean one should overwork the core devs by requesting crap to be merged though; it wastes everyone's time)
07:42 Dormo        Groovy. Submitted the pull request. Hopefully I didn't make an ass out of myself
07:46 celeron55    seems very hacky
07:46 Dormo        That's why I was concerned.
07:47 Dormo        I didn't expect it to work, I thought I'd have to check the node type to make sure you were on stairs
07:47 Dormo        I just did that to see what would happen, and it didn't seem to break anything
07:48 Dormo        I thought "Okay, if this fixes the bug, I'll make a conditional that checks to make sure the node is stairs", but it just seemed to work fine in general
07:48 celeron55    i don't think that can be merged as-is, but can you test what happens with that patch when you are sneaking on a pile of nodes and dig the topmost node while you keep sneaking?
07:49 celeron55    there must be something that will break but i have no idea what :P
07:49 Dormo        Sure. And I know, right?
07:51 Dormo        It seems to work as expected.
07:51 Dormo        Let me try it on slabs...
07:52 celeron55    at least for sure this patch won't work for things that aren't half-cube high
07:52 Dormo        That's true, but will that ever happen?
07:53 Dormo        What if
07:53 celeron55    yes - and also it screws up something for sure, because it changes the scaling of a position variable that is used for other than vertical positioning too
07:54 Dormo        What if I made a conditional. If the node is stairs, do my patch. If the node isnt stairs, do the original code
07:55 celeron55    it's still too hacky due to what i just mentioned
07:56 Dormo        I see. Alright. I'll try to get more familiar with what the code does, then
07:57 celeron55    but if you want to check if something is stairs, you actually have to check if the node is of the "nodebox" type - that is the correct conditional from the engine's standpoint
07:57 Dormo        nodebox == stairs?
07:57 celeron55    (nodebox means the node can be other than a full cube)
07:58 Dormo        Oh, I see
07:58 Dormo        Wait, are you sure?
07:59 Dormo        Because when  I was on the slab it said m_old_node_below_type was "stairs:brick"
07:59 Dormo        Or is that the wrong way to check the node type?
07:59 celeron55    oh it's a different thing
08:00 celeron55    you need to look up the node's definition (a ContentFeatures struct from the nodemgr thing there) and see if it's drawtype is NDT_NODEBOX
08:01 Dormo        Is there any way to get the node's dimensions?
08:02 celeron55    yes; if it's NDT_NODEBOX, all the axis-aligned boxes the node consists of are in the node definition field node_box
08:02 celeron55    it's a list of axis-aligned boxes so it gets quite nasty from your standpoint
08:05 celeron55    if you manage to whip up some nice generic way of handling that, it will be appreciated 8)
08:07 Dormo        Yeah, now that I know nodes can be things other than either a full cube or a half cube, I'll try to come up with a generic solution. Hopefully I can get something in the next few days.
10:53 sapier       http://ompldr.org/iaWQyeA what do you think about adding a ingame mod management tab like this?
10:55 VanessaE     nice
10:55 sapier       yes but for this to be of real use current mod/game administration needs a major overhaul
10:56 sapier       e.g. mods no longer should be spread over 30 folders
10:58 sapier       imho games should be just configuration files  ... and yes I know my suggestions might add limitations that aren't there atm but they'd reduce complexity of mod/game handling by some factors
10:59 VanessaE     games have to be more than just config files, as a game consists of mods
10:59 VanessaE     where are they gonna get their content from?
11:00 sapier       as far as I understand a game is a subset of all available mods installed on users machine
11:00 sapier       thus a game could be a config file selecting those mods required for it
11:00 VanessaE     no, not at all
11:00 VanessaE     a game is a collection of mods that may or may not be separately available anywhere
11:01 VanessaE     plus in most cases, some of the mods included in a given game will be different from what is officially available separately.
11:01 sapier       and what does "way of distribution" have to do with what a game is? Yes I admit "installing" a game is a special case
11:01 VanessaE     for example, my "game" has default in it, but modified to disable leaf decay.
11:02 * darkrose   is exceptionally pleased with the mod management in use on her server
11:02 ironzorg     inb4 hash
11:02 PilzAdam     dont you have a 0.3 server?
11:02 darkrose     exactly
11:02 sapier       if this is minimum requirement I'll stop ingame modmanager development... I don't se any way to create a usable modmanager this way
11:02 VanessaE     sapier: I'm not talking about methods of distribution.  I'm talking about the content of the game and where that content comes from.
11:03 VanessaE     managing the download and install of individual mods the way you're thinking is probably fine
11:03 sapier       what you want is 200 degrees of freedom to implement this in a modmanager will result in a complex system not usable/understandable by anyone
11:04 VanessaE     but games must be handled as self-contained packages, not as some kind of generic "use this, this, and this mod" configs
11:05 sapier       meaning mod manager should be game specific, user needs to download and install a mod separate for each game
11:05 VanessaE     where did I say that?
11:05 sapier       mixing game specific and global mods is a no-go imho either all mods are game specific or none
11:05 VanessaE     if your proposed solution removes even one option we have now, it is a non-starter.
11:06 sapier       ok then forget about it current mod/game selection mess can't be fixed
11:06 VanessaE     but if you can make it install mods on a per-game basis, the way we do it now, but of course with automated download-and-install like you're suggesting, go for it
11:07 sapier       I'm not willing to waste 2 weeks to create a mod manager supporting nonsense options sorry
11:07 sapier       the mod manager does only make sense if mod mess can be cleant up by adding it otherwise its waste of time
11:08 VanessaE     what mess?
11:08 sapier       vanessae we do not install mods in a per game basis now ... at least not completely
11:08 VanessaE     since when?
11:08 sapier       common mods
11:08 VanessaE     ~/.minetest/mods/gameid/mods
11:09 VanessaE     for whatever gameid you want to consider
11:09 VanessaE     common is about to be re-absorbed.
11:09 VanessaE     PilzAdam: since he brings it up, can we just get that overwith now?
11:09 sapier       one option less still the duplication issue remains
11:09 VanessaE     who cares about duplication?  disk space is cheap.
11:10 VanessaE     if it's that big of a concern, run a de-duplication fs  :-)
11:10 VanessaE     or use symbolic links
11:10 kaeza        Windows? symbolic links? what?
11:10 sapier       so I need to add checksums recheck every time ...
11:10 VanessaE     kaeza: "shortcuts" in windows
11:11 VanessaE     checksums?  you're overcomplicating this.
11:11 kaeza        VanessaE, shortcuts != symlinks
11:11 VanessaE     just download, install, done.
11:11 VanessaE     forget all the security-hardening shit for now
11:11 sapier       it's not security is just usability
11:11 VanessaE     kaeza: well they perform the same function as a symlink don't they?
11:11 kaeza        VanessaE, nope
11:11 VanessaE     sapier: like I just said - download, install, done.
11:11 sapier       user won't be very glad if his game won't work anymore once some other games mod is updated
11:11 VanessaE     don't make it more complicated than it truly needs to be
11:12 VanessaE     gah!
11:12 VanessaE     you're not listening
11:12 kaeza        A symlink is handled by the kernel/whatever in Linux, but a shortcut is a regular file on Windows
11:12 VanessaE     game mods are on a per-game basis already
11:12 sapier       no it is complicated vanessae you're just ignoring any problem that doesn't fit to your special way of using games
11:12 VanessaE     a mod in minetest/mods isn't going to interfere with build/mods is it?
11:12 sapier       if you use symlink it is interfering
11:13 VanessaE     what you propose is one mod to rule them all
11:13 sapier       no I'm just looking for better solutions than current mess
11:13 VanessaE     *facepalm*
11:13 VanessaE     again:
11:13 VanessaE     who cares about duplication?  disk space is cheap.
11:14 VanessaE     = just install the damn mods wherever they're needed.
11:14 VanessaE     if one goes out of date, the user can fix it.
11:14 sapier       it's not about duplication but about duplicated work redownload and install a mod to multiple games
11:14 sapier       it's usability not disk space
11:15 VanessaE     well you have precisely two choices and no more:
11:15 VanessaE     either you maintain multiple copies (one per game), or you maintain one copy and link to it from everywhere else by some mechanism
11:15 VanessaE     and by "link to it" I also mean your overcomplicated config file idea.
11:16 kaeza        how about using "common" as symlink mechanism?
11:16 sapier       common is to be removed
11:16 VanessaE     well?
11:16 sapier       but I was thinking about replacing game folder by same mechanism used for common
11:16 VanessaE     pick one already
11:16 sapier       bot options are crap vanessae there must be another one
11:17 VanessaE     there isn't
11:17 VanessaE     you either have one copy, or you have more than one.
11:17 VanessaE     there is no third option.
11:17 sapier       and complexity isn't added by me but requirement to be compatible to all nonsense bugs and features added ages ago
11:18 VanessaE     what bugs?
11:18 VanessaE     you're overcomplicating it again
11:18 sapier       e.g. non working prefix check
11:19 sapier       one copy implies games to be config files instead of folders that's what you dont want to have
11:19 kaeza        sapier, you can have both config files *and* actual mods in a game
11:19 sapier       and don't say "symlinks" a folder containing symlinks is nothing different than a very special config file
11:20 VanessaE     you either have one copy, or you have more than one.  PICK ONE.
11:20 sapier       if you do the implementation and cross checking kaeza ;-)
11:20 kaeza        sapier, the mod manager should not need to check individual mods in a game (for update, etc), but rather the game as a whole
11:21 sapier       imho this is to game centric
11:21 VanessaE     it's supposed to be!
11:22 sapier       if it's supposed to be of what use should any moddb be?
11:22 kaeza        sapier, look at all the games posted in the forums; most (if not all) of them are meant to be used stand-alone
11:22 kaeza        I mean, it's supposed you wouldn't need other mods if you download Dwarves for example
11:22 sapier       do you really expect me to implement a game only solution? you know I do NOT release any game
11:23 VanessaE     sapier: MOBF is practically a game by itself ;)
11:23 sapier       no it isn't
11:23 VanessaE     emphasis on *practically*
11:23 sapier       still it's never been meant as a full game
11:23 VanessaE     jeez man get a sense of humor
11:23 sapier       it's just a small piece
11:24 kaeza        sapier, treat "games" as simple "modpacks"
11:24 VanessaE     which is precisely all a game really i
11:24 VanessaE     is
11:24 sapier       I do I just dislike getting suggested to implement things that are of no use to me as only "possible solution" ;-P
11:24 VanessaE     it's a modpack with an extra file declaring that it isn't a modpack.
11:24 kaeza        you don't update a modpack by updating individual mods
11:25 kaeza        you update it as a whole
11:25 VanessaE     exactly.
11:25 VanessaE     let the game's author/maintainer decide if the mods therein need updates.
11:25 sapier       so we now have 3 things to handle
11:25 kahrl        hi, what are we arguing about today? :D
11:25 sapier       games/modpacks/mods
11:25 VanessaE     maybe the game author wants some mods in their game to be old, on purpose?
11:25 sapier       do you really think any user will understand what he's doing?
11:26 VanessaE     sapier: they can learn.
11:26 sapier       no they wont
11:26 sapier       kahrl almost same as last time ;-)
11:26 VanessaE     then they won't know what they're doing and they can either ask for help or go away
11:26 kaeza        sapier, it's better than browsing the entire forum and installing manually (plus possible renaming)
11:27 kahrl        hmm. why not add a button "games" to the bottom row of games when in the mod manager tab
11:27 kahrl        which will display a list of installed and available games
11:27 sapier       no it isn't ui in minetest is quite limited adding complexity like add games/add modpack/add mod linking everything together ...
11:27 VanessaE     kahrl: "Install..."  "Delete..."
11:27 sapier       user will never know where he needs to add what
11:28 VanessaE     sapier: every mod, modpack, or game is already clearly labeled as such on the forums
11:28 kahrl        you don't need to differentiate between mod and modpack in the mod manager
11:28 sapier       if you have a look at tab list of my suggestion I already added a games tab
11:28 VanessaE     you expect us to hold the users' hands THAT far?
11:28 VanessaE     "connect all the little dots?"
11:29 sapier       there must be some reason why users tell minetest is to complicated ... they wouldn't do if it was as simple as you claim
11:29 VanessaE     they say it's too complicated because we don't have enough active content in the "default game" (e.g. minetest_game).
11:29 kaeza        oh dear
11:29 VanessaE     but it's still FAR less complicated than Minecraft!
11:30 VanessaE     (because, that is, we require users to install a few mods here and there to get the content they watn)
11:30 VanessaE     want8
11:30 VanessaE     ...
11:30 sapier       i just asked by bro he tells me he doesn't want t browse in formum look for compatible mods building a new game everytime
11:30 sapier       not knowing where to put them either
11:31 kaeza        sapier, the mod manager would eliminate the "don't know where to put what" problem
11:31 sapier       no its not less complicated than minecraft because minecraft is limited but easy
11:31 sapier       yes but only if user does understand HOW to use it
11:31 kahrl        until you want to install mods... then hello jar hell
11:31 VanessaE     minecraft easy!?
11:32 VanessaE     you have to patch the damn engine for every mod
11:32 VanessaE     and pray that everything you install is cross-compatible.
11:32 VanessaE     that's not anywhere near as much a problem with minetest
11:32 kaeza        not to mention you must use a matching client and server
11:32 VanessaE     yes, that too
11:32 sapier       those who want mods are skilled enough to do it but this is not the audience I'm talking about
11:32 VanessaE     sapier: then you're focused on the wrong audience.
11:32 kaeza        well... I'm confused
11:33 sapier       imho you're focused on wrong audience ;-)
11:33 VanessaE     those who find minetest too complicated are the ones who want more content than is the default and there are only two ways to solve that:  1. include more content.  2. make the user install mods.
11:33 sapier       you don't need a mod manager for developers
11:33 kaeza        and what is the intended audience again?
11:33 kahrl        I dislike the idea of dumbing down programs if it removes interesting choices
11:34 sapier       the only removed option would be wasting memory by duplication and of course modders wouldn't have a "game" specific storage anymore
11:34 VanessaE     memory!?
11:34 VanessaE     DISK SPACE IS CHEAP.
11:34 sapier       don't know what use this could be either
11:35 kaeza        kahrl, I don't like it either, but it does not remove the "interesting choices"
11:36 kaeza        and let's face it. the average computer user of today is not the same as it was 20 years ago (or even 10 or 5)
11:36 VanessaE     I have somewhere north of 75 mods in my standard collection, of which 53 of them are part of my "game".  it wouldn't matter if I had a thousand of them on hand, they aren't going to take any memory of they're not being used, they just need some disk space.  Even my bloated-ass "game" is only 50 MB.
11:36 VanessaE     (the balance are not installed at all, mind you)
11:36 sapier       vanessae I understand your main focus is in game level thats good but it's not the only possible view
11:36 kahrl        the idea of having different games was not to have them all be "basically the same with a few differences"
11:37 kahrl        even if that's how it mostly looks today
11:37 VanessaE     sapier: my main focus is on everything - all three parts of the modding system
11:37 kahrl        so it must be possible to have different games with completely different mods even if those mods have the same name
11:37 VanessaE     mods, modpacks, and games - I'm concerned with all three.
11:38 kaeza        I know, but there are games that can be easily extended, and those that come in "self-contained" version
11:39 kaeza        there are some games out there in which adding a simple mod can break things disastrously
11:39 sapier       assuming we keep the game folders .... having a global mod manager isn't of any use
11:39 kahrl        kaeza: that's the fault of the mod then, I guess
11:39 sapier       the only possibility would be make the mod manager game specific
11:39 kaeza        kahrl, not always
11:40 kahrl        so the modder didn't test compatibility with that particular game? then it should not be marked compatible with that game
11:40 sapier       so first thing to ad would be a game manager
11:40 celeron55    kahrl: personally i haven't yet figured out what kind of mod namespacing we want
11:40 VanessaE     sapier: so don't make it game specific. make it install games into ~/.minetest/games  where they belong, and mods/modpacks into ~/.minetest/mods/<gameid>/mods where they belong.
11:40 VanessaE     anything more than this is overcomplictaed.
11:41 VanessaE     overcomplicated*
11:41 kaeza        anyway, we would need a mod versioning scheme
11:41 sapier       imho games do not belog to ~
11:41 VanessaE     (or their appropriate folders for the run-in-place version of course)
11:41 VanessaE     sapier: you don't believe in multi-user OSs?
11:41 sapier       this is just crap if you have a development model like minetest
11:42 sapier       no i don't even believe in user global installing mods
11:42 sapier       i use RUN_IN_PLACE only
11:42 kahrl        sapier: if a distribution wants to distribute a game via their package manager they can still use /usr/share
11:42 VanessaE     what global?  ~ is the user's homedir.
11:42 sapier       "user global"
11:42 kaeza        global for what?
11:43 VanessaE     sapier: there's no such thing.  Either you've got per-user, or you've got system global (with appropriate permissions/acls)
11:43 sapier       if you have mods installed in ~/.minetest and you start 0.4.6 0.4.7 you'll have a real mess
11:43 kahrl        obviously the directory should be the minetest dir instead of ~/.minetest when RUN_IN_PLACE=1
11:43 kahrl        just as it always was
11:43 VanessaE     kahrl: right.
11:43 kaeza        sapier, there you have a point, yes
11:44 VanessaE     sapier: non-sequitur.  if you have 0.4.6, you aren't gonna have 0.4.7 (etc), unless you're using run-in-place installs, in which case ~/.minetest isn't even used to begin with
11:44 sapier       I know for distributions we need ~ and share too
11:44 sapier       just because you don't check your mods for compatibility against latest stable version you can't expect everyone else not to do so too vanessae
11:45 VanessaE     sapier: all of my mods are written to be as forward- and backward-compatible as is practical, thank youi.
11:45 VanessaE     you're going off on the wrong direction yet again
11:45 sapier       so any solution is required to support al three opions share,~,RUN_IN_PLACE
11:45 VanessaE     if you have multiple versions of minetest installed, YOU AREN'T USING ~/.minetest !
11:46 VanessaE     no
11:46 sapier       it is
11:46 VanessaE     system-wide mods belong in the system's package manager ONYL.
11:46 VanessaE     ONLY*
11:46 sapier       not same time but it needs to support all options
11:46 VanessaE     userland should NEVER have to (or be allowed) to screw with /usr/share or similar.
11:46 sapier       ok ... then forget about the manager
11:47 kaeza        sapier, RUN_IN_PLACE should not touch ~/.minetest or /usr/share
11:47 VanessaE     sapier: doing so requires root privs, you really want to build THAT into a GAME!?
11:47 sapier       this is way to complicated I'll leve it for someone else I've got already enough open issues
11:47 kahrl        it's not complicated. the mod manager just doesn't touch /usr at all
11:47 VanessaE     kahrl: exACTly.
11:48 sapier       that's not am option kahrl it at least needs to know what s installed in usr
11:48 VanessaE     sapier: you're trying to do more than a standard OS security model allows for.  /usr/share is strictly under the purview of the OS's packaging system and/or update manager.
11:48 sapier       if not doing so you'll have conflicts
11:48 kaeza        sapier, *touch* (as in *modify*)
11:49 kahrl        yeah, I meant writing
11:49 VanessaE     (of course I include Windows there, for whatever its equivalent of /usr/share is)
11:50 kaeza        minetest does not use it on Windows
11:50 VanessaE     didn't think so
11:50 sapier       as I said getting this done in a way supporting all usefull and non usefull features currently implemented is more time than I'm willing to spend for this
11:50 VanessaE     sapier: then just don't DO that part, jeez
11:50 VanessaE     stick to run-in-place and ~/.minetest
11:50 VanessaE     anything else is secondary
11:50 VanessaE     you seem to have this mental block to "do this part now, add this other part later on"
11:51 kaeza        sapier, KISS
11:51 kaeza        (no offense)
11:51 VanessaE     if it's deemed to be SO important that you JUST HAVE TO read /usr/share (and /usr/local/share btw), then add those features later on down the line.
11:51 kahrl        if RUN_IN_PLACE; basepath='minetest dir'; else; basepath='~/.minetest'; end; function update(modname,modpath) if modpath is below basepath; do the update; else; print "Can't update mod; end; end
11:51 sapier       it's not an option to not consider something if you redesign it at least desing needs to consider it ... implementing it is something completely different
11:52 VanessaE     sapier: designs can be RE-designed over time if needed.
11:52 VanessaE     if they couldn't, we'd still be stuck with 0.3.x and everything hard-wired into the engine.
11:52 VanessaE     (sorry, darkrose  :)  )
11:53 sapier       RE-design? good god do you realize how much fighting is required to get evel small design cleanups into minetest?
11:53 sapier       :-)
11:53 kaeza        sapier, "oh, I'll think about all the possible problems that may arise from my implementation in the future" -- said no developer EVER
11:53 VanessaE     sapier: do it anyway :)
11:54 sapier       ok lets stop general discussions and back to original topic mod/game management
11:54 VanessaE     sapier: why bother?  you already said it's too complicated :)
11:55 sapier       you're really close to driving me really giving up this task vanessae ;-)
11:55 sapier       back to topic
11:56 sapier       forget about my suggestion for mod manager for time beeing
11:56 sapier       if you want gam centric view of mintest first thing to add is a game manager
11:56 celeron55    what's this all hassle
11:56 celeron55    supporting read-only global unixy installs and user installs is trivial
11:57 sapier       yes everything is trivial if you're ignoring conflict cases
11:57 celeron55    the first one doesn't touch and the second one does, and RUN_IN_PLACE means that the former just doesn't exist
11:57 kahrl        sapier: what conflict cases?
11:58 sapier       e.g. a game of same name in /usr and in ~
11:58 VanessaE     simple:  the one in ~ or run-in-place gets used
11:58 VanessaE     and the one in /usr is ignored.
11:58 VanessaE     how hard is that?
11:58 celeron55    those are always handled with the ~ one overriding the /usr one
11:58 celeron55    or if they aren't they can be; it's standard practice everywhere anyway
11:58 VanessaE     exactly.
11:59 celeron55    we aren't designing anything new really; just following long-used ways in how to do stuff
11:59 sapier       you need to tell user of override happening in order to not cause frustration because of things simply not working ... users do mistakes
11:59 VanessaE     sapier: if the user needs to be informed of that, it belongs at the OS level, in a readme somewhere.
12:00 VanessaE     as c55 just said, this is standard practice anyway
12:00 sapier       there are at least 5 places where you could install a mod atm
12:00 iqualfragile i have an ide
12:01 * kahrl      has a sata
12:01 iqualfragile what about having 2 (exactly 2) places where to put mods
12:01 iqualfragile the one is system wide in /usr/share
12:01 celeron55    we have at max 2 proper places where to install additional mods
12:01 iqualfragile and the other one is somewhere in ~/.minetest
12:01 celeron55    everything else is wrong
12:01 iqualfragile then you could define games via a configuration file wich states the mods to include
12:02 VanessaE     iqualfragile: /usr/share and /usr/local/share if you even consider those folders at all.
12:02 sapier       I'm not talking about "proper" places as I realized noone is interested if it's correct once it's working
12:02 celeron55    oh god
12:03 celeron55    at this rate i'm going to seriously make a minimal voxel mining game which nobody will ever modify, including me after it works
12:03 sapier       if I'm not blamed for breaking something working atm done wrong I'm fine with it too
12:03 iqualfragile right now you can put mods into the games directory, into the word directory and into the mods directory
12:04 celeron55    sapier: one of minetest's greatest features is that it will interact properly with distro package management systems, as well as traditional windows packaging, as well as just .zips
12:04 sapier       and each of this option is available twice
12:04 sapier       I don't want to change anything about that fact celeron
12:05 sapier       I suggest dropping support for world and gamedir stored mods
12:05 sapier       gamedir != game
12:07 celeron55    wtf is "gamedir"
12:07 sapier       the "mods" folder parallel to "bin" dir
12:08 celeron55    ehm
12:08 sapier       where almost every user places it's mods first because of the "mods_in_here.txt" file in that folder
12:08 celeron55    that is $path_user/mods
12:09 sapier       containing mods not linked to any game
12:09 kaeza        sapier, that's what world configuration is for
12:09 kaeza        (enable/disable mods per world)
12:10 sapier       do we really NEED this feature?
12:10 celeron55    what feature
12:10 sapier       world specific mods
12:10 kahrl        I'm having trouble following this conversation
12:10 celeron55    why is that a problem
12:10 kaeza        just download and install to mods/, disable the mod by default
12:10 celeron55    my conclusion about this is that sapier has gone insane
12:11 sapier       I really don't have any idea how you do conlude celeron
12:11 kaeza        (or even conslidate somewhat the mod manager with the world config)
12:11 sapier       one simple question is a mod a part of a world or of a game or both?
12:12 PilzAdam     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/716 <- tested and it works fine; any objections?
12:12 sapier       if it's both I don't have any idea how to create an easy to use way to manage mods
12:12 celeron55    sapier: write a clear proposal that explains your vision for mod handling and handles all the use cases
12:13 celeron55    sapier: nobody can follow and comment everything you say in here this way
12:13 sapier       I obviously don't even know of all use cases that are implemented currently
12:13 celeron55    the dev wiki has a page for such
12:13 sapier       i stopped using wiki after not beeing able to decide cats from dogs for 10 minutes
12:14 celeron55    just make an account
12:14 celeron55    anyway, pastebin is equally fine
12:16 celeron55    or maybe gist.github.com is best, i think it allows comments
12:16 sapier       I had an account and still couldn't change anything ;-)
12:17 sapier       I'll create a new suggestion and paste screenshots
12:17 sapier       obviously my first approach was too mod centric  ... lets try to create a game centric one
12:19 celeron55    well, it could be decided that should MT focus on mods per world or mods per game
12:19 celeron55    there are good arguments towards both
12:20 sapier       yes but both at same time is crazy
12:21 sapier       still I may have an idea how to get this done at least a little bit userfriendly
12:22 sapier       my last suggestion was absed on plain mods ... another option would be hooking mod install to a selected game
12:22 celeron55    the original design is having mods per game
12:22 sapier       a third option would be hooking it to a world, fetching mods from two sources
12:23 celeron55    but the problem is, people tend to want to have different mods per different world
12:23 celeron55    it can't be ignored
12:23 sapier       so mod manager should be even world specific instead of game specific
12:23 celeron55    but also people want to automatically have all or part of their mods in newly created worlds
12:24 PilzAdam     the best for me would be world specific mods, i.e. place mods in $path_user/mods/ and enable them for worlds in the GUI
12:24 sapier       displaying mods currently active for a world isn't a problem
12:24 PilzAdam     (mods should be disabled by default for worlds)
12:24 celeron55    this all is quite heavily reflected in our current implementation
12:25 iqualfragile yeah, that would be nice (enabling mods)
12:25 sapier       we can't have everything at once we need at least to decide for a default behaviour
12:26 celeron55    it seems to me that everything that we have currently would work just fine if mods would default as disabled for new worlds
12:26 sapier       enabling mods conflicts with with to make mods game specific
12:26 kaeza        sapier, the "standard" behavior for the user to install mods is to put them in $path_user/moods/minetest
12:26 kaeza        (as specified in the README)
12:26 sapier       but those mods will be active in all games am I correct?
12:26 celeron55    sapier: decisions on whether mod namespace is game-specific or global is under discussion
12:27 PilzAdam     well, since we move back to minetest_game only I guess game specific namespace would work too
12:27 sapier       so designing a mod manager at present time is nonsense this decision has to be made prior creating a manageer
12:27 PilzAdam     (it was just annyoung for survival and build)
12:27 kaeza        sapier, yes, but disable by default (as PilzAdam and I said), and let the user enable them per-world
12:27 PilzAdam     *annoying
12:28 celeron55    sapier: more like so that deciding that is part of the process of designing a mod manager
12:28 sapier       kaeza this would reuire games beeing at least hyprid config file + folders
12:29 sapier       as far as I understood if I'm creating the mod manager I'm not allowed to drop any feature. so how can I decide about the namespace without droping any feature?
12:30 PilzAdam     for the modmanage it would be best if the mod namespace would not be gamespecific
12:30 PilzAdam     +r
12:30 sapier       I don't have any problem with different oppinions but plz stop requesting conflicting things
12:31 celeron55    sapier: this is not a light issue so it must be chosen carefully, so don't do it by yourself :P
12:31 sapier       pilzadam that's my current suggestion but vanessae doesn't agree to this at all
12:31 * PilzAdam   would be happy with both ways, although I slightly prefer the global namespace
12:33 sapier       as far as I see there are three options 1) "global mod namespace" 2) game specific namespace 3) world specific namespace
12:33 sapier       first one is most easy to implement and doesn't require lots of checks
12:33 sapier       second is something in between
12:33 celeron55    my starting point here is that somebody will make a space travel / flight simulator / RTS game on the engine - and the mod system must not become a mess at that
12:33 sapier       and in third one we need to ask user to where to install a mod ... again
12:34 celeron55    (none of those will use any mods from minetest_game)
12:34 celeron55    (and thus will not be compatible in any way)
12:36 PilzAdam     the problem with the global namespace is that if somone makes a mod for minetest_game called "a", and another one makes a mod called "a" for a different game you cant install both
12:36 sapier       I'll create a suggestion the game specific way knowing that dropping world specific mod support is hard to accept for some ppl
12:36 celeron55    of course there is the question of whether such is a reasonable goal, but i think that it would be extremely dumb to limit ourselves out of it
12:36 PilzAdam     but I think the chance for that to happen is very low
12:36 celeron55    because we have no way of knowing what will happen in the future
12:37 sapier       ok we don't need to drop it but it'd just not be handled in in game mod manager correctly
12:37 celeron55    sapier: it won't be handled; don't worry about that - it's for pre-made puzzle worlds and such
12:37 celeron55    only thing it needs to do is do nothing if it detects worldmods
12:39 celeron55    PilzAdam: it can't be left in the hands of chance - if the namespace is combined, the mention about that must be added to modding tutorials and such so that people won't even make a mod of the same name for two different games
12:39 sapier       ingame mod manager won't even detect world mods
12:40 sapier       the game specific way will only handle mods in games
12:40 celeron55    sapier: it must so that it won't screw up such pre-made worlds; it's a matter of checking existence a single directory so it can be easily done
12:40 celeron55    +of
12:40 BlockMen     hi, i have noticed, that "max_hear_distance = w/e" only works when starting to play the sound. but when it is playing and the player moves away the sound still plays. is that wanted?
12:41 sapier       celeron55 it can't starting at a game I can't check for all worlds and if there might be a mod in there
12:41 celeron55    sapier: eh what
12:41 celeron55    sapier: now you are again just deliberately not understanding
12:41 celeron55    stop it
12:41 celeron55    it's dumb
12:41 sapier       you said mod manager should handle world mods
12:42 sapier       the game specific mod manager wouldn't even have an idea what a "world" is
12:42 celeron55    it must *not interfere* with them, by doing exactly nothing and letting the world simply run with the default mods of a game combined with the worldmods
12:42 sapier       i think we're talking of different things
12:42 celeron55    okay, you can't do that
12:43 celeron55    it has been in discussions that eg. deciding between a survival world and a creative world would be done by the means of enabling a survival or creative focused mod on a world
12:43 celeron55    or other stuff like that
12:43 celeron55    so having it per-game is really out of the question
12:44 celeron55    (and yes, we talked about different things)
12:44 sapier       the more we're talking the more I think the modmanager containing all features required by different ppl just can't ever be developed
12:45 sapier       maybe I should create a modmanager guessing who's currently playing and enabling exactly this feature set /ironic/
12:45 kaeza        sapier, then set a new standard
12:45 PilzAdam     sapier, the only thing the modmanager has to do is download/install/remove mods into/from $path_user/mods/
12:45 celeron55    and my SSH connection sucks horse dick
12:45 celeron55    this makes me three times more annoyed
12:45 PilzAdam     (in a game namepsace or not, depends how we decide)
12:46 sapier       pilzadam that's YOUR feature set
12:46 PilzAdam     what do other people expect from it?
12:46 kaeza        sapier, it's the general user "feature set"
12:46 sapier       for vanessaE I'll create a gui showing games only
12:46 iqualfragile i.e. worldmods > gamemods and the modmanager ignores worldmods?
12:47 sapier       and for celeron one supporting decision of download place based on some complex calculations where waht mod should be added
12:47 celeron55    fuck this connection
12:47 celeron55    now let me propose some crap if this connection might happen to let me
12:47 sapier       iqualfragile that suggestion has just been denied by celeron
12:47 PilzAdam     sapier, mods by the mod manager should always go into $path_user/mods/
12:48 iqualfragile yeah, im sorry, i have not scrolled down :D
12:48 PilzAdam     and its a modmanager, not a gamemanager
12:48 sapier       pilzadam doing so games need some way to enable/disable mods
12:48 PilzAdam     no, the user decides wich mods to use in a per world setting
12:48 kaeza        sapier, the mod enable/disable mechanism will come in handy here
12:48 celeron55    actually no i won't, it won't work
12:49 kaeza        (per-world)
12:49 sapier       might be afouth option
12:49 iqualfragile maybee we should get our definitions straight:
12:50 sapier       "global" mods handled by mod manager enabled at world creation
12:50 iqualfragile game: some completly independent set of nodes and scripts
12:50 celeron55    what if we drop having game selection in the UI and define a scheme of how games can start up themselves in minetest by their own shortcuts or bundles?
12:50 iqualfragile mod: a modifictaion to a game
12:50 celeron55    it will give more space for mod selection
12:50 iqualfragile i think the question is: should a mod be usable in more then one game? so: are mods game-specific or not?
12:51 iqualfragile thats a good idea, actualy
12:51 celeron55    iqualfragile: the answer is, they can be, but in the future many may not be
12:51 sapier       a mod can be even world specific iqualfragile
12:52 iqualfragile sapier: yeah, but a world allwas has a gamemode
12:53 sapier       there are too many options to handle all at once in an easy modmanager
12:53 iqualfragile celeron55: because right now most games are quite similar and a bit interchangable (like minetest_game) but in future people might create crazy stuff on the minetest engine
12:53 celeron55    iqualfragile: that is the idea, and the source of all confusion and problems
12:53 celeron55    8)
12:53 celeron55    of course we could just drop the "gameability" and be done with that
12:54 celeron55    but then most of our framework is useless
12:54 iqualfragile well, there are two solutions in my opinion: either we ignore the posibilities and just say: minetest is a gameengine for minetest_game like games
12:54 celeron55    well, not most, but some parts
12:54 BlockMen     what about user-mods are global in general, but for custom games deisabled by default?
12:54 iqualfragile and all mods are put into one folder and every gamemode enables a subset of those per config file
12:54 BlockMen     *disabled
12:54 iqualfragile and that selection can be extended by world-specific configuration
12:55 iqualfragile or we say: minetest is a general gameengine
12:55 iqualfragile wich would result in putting mods in gamespecific directories
12:55 celeron55    this all comes to what i have said before: minetest as an engine must work more like a library or a script interpreter; not as the game-engine hybrid it is
12:56 celeron55    if the goal is to reduce confusion, that is
12:56 celeron55    which sapier seems to aim towards
12:56 kaeza        game-specific mod install would require downloading and installing one copy per game mode
12:56 PilzAdam     my ideas: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5554242
12:56 sapier       yes this is my aim
12:56 iqualfragile ok, so you favour the sec. possibility?
12:56 sapier       -aim + target
12:56 kaeza        PilzAdam, +1
12:57 celeron55    and there are living examples of such engines like löve2d
12:57 iqualfragile kaeza: yeah and that would be absolutely sane if we assume that gamemodes are compleetly independent
12:57 iqualfragile but they are not atm
12:57 kaeza        iqualfragile, some games are meant to be stand-alone (f.ex: Dwarves)
12:57 sapier       pilzadam if you create  a new world you'll always have to enable lets say 30 mods
12:57 Zeg9         PilzAdam, I think the same
12:57 PilzAdam     sapier, yes
12:57 BlockMen     PilzAdam, +1 (but the user chosen mods should be enabled by default for the default games)
12:57 sapier       this is not what I try to achieve
12:58 PilzAdam     well, other way round I have to disable 30 mods
12:58 PilzAdam     its just dont mess up existing worlds
12:58 sapier       it's to easy to click wrong mod and can't really disable it afterwards
12:58 PilzAdam     if you intsall a mod you first have to tell a world to use the new mod
12:58 kaeza        and it's easier to leave it by default
12:58 sapier       there should at least be some "templates/games" to use for world creation
12:58 iqualfragile maybee we should force mods to have a remove.lua file wich aliases the registered nodes to some default nodes
12:58 kaeza        (and not be able to disable it afterwards)
12:59 kaeza        iqualfragile, umm
12:59 PilzAdam     sapier, well, if you accidentally use a mod in a world at startup, just remove the world and create a new one
12:59 PilzAdam     currently if you install a mod it would go directly into every world
13:00 sapier       can be done of course but clicking 30 mods is still anoying
13:00 PilzAdam     this will mess up worlds a lot more than disabling every mod by default
13:00 kaeza        ^ including existing ones
13:00 celeron55    sapier: just add an "enable all mods" button
13:00 PilzAdam     sapier, there is "Select all"
13:00 celeron55    what's the problem with that
13:00 PilzAdam     also: modpacks
13:00 celeron55    anyway, i'm ready to go along PilzAdam's suggestion
13:01 sapier       select all doesn't help if you want a subset
13:01 celeron55    it's the KISS way and i'm tired of trying to come up with better ones
13:01 PilzAdam     users can make their own "Survival" and "build" modpacks to easily enable/disable mods in their worlds
13:01 PilzAdam     (or the mod manager can create them for them)
13:01 celeron55    sapier: that's more of a UI problem anyway; but what about a button "use mod set from an existing world" that gives a list of worlds from where to copy the mod configuration
13:02 kaeza        or add a "Enable by default" checkbox in the mod manager
13:02 PilzAdam     kaeza, i.e. "Select all"
13:02 kaeza        PilzAdam, per-mod
13:02 PilzAdam     nah
13:02 PilzAdam     that would screw up the concept
13:02 kaeza        so when you create a new world, it will enable only those selected by default
13:02 sapier       is vanessae still here?
13:03 sapier       she's been the one denying the mod centric approach currently discussed
13:03 kaeza        (of course, the "Select all" button would be good too)
13:03 celeron55    sapier: we simply won't care; she doesn't have better alternatives anyway
13:04 sapier       http://ompldr.org/iaWQyeA this is the suggestion fitting for a mod centric mod manager
13:04 sapier       second part needs to be added in world creation
13:06 sapier       is this what you've been thinking about pilzadam/celeron55?
13:06 PilzAdam     the mod manger needs to be discussed later on
13:06 PilzAdam     but it will be relatively simple with my system
13:06 sapier       ok lets get back to beginning
13:07 sapier       guys I'm gonna leave now to prevent saying something I'm gonna regret
13:07 kaeza        ?
13:09 Zeg9         huh?
13:09 celeron55    lol i don't even care, whatever that is
13:09 iqualfragile i guess he is slightly annoyed
13:09 iqualfragile so whats the decision? all mods into one folder and enabling them per world?
13:10 PilzAdam     yes
13:10 celeron55    it seems to me that we don't have any other viable options
13:10 PilzAdam     (see my gist)
13:10 kaeza        looks simple enough
13:11 kaeza        I don't know why sapier is always finding unrelated problems or looking way too much ahead
13:11 iqualfragile the other option would be to keep it like its atm:
13:11 iqualfragile gamemodes provide sets of mods
13:12 kaeza        "problems"*
13:12 celeron55    it's simple, but we may end up having to put in place pretty strict naming conventions after a long time, breaking it
13:12 celeron55    ...
13:12 celeron55    fucking SSH
13:12 iqualfragile people extend gamemodes by putting mods into a gamemode-specific folder
13:12 iqualfragile and that can be extended by putting mods into worlds
13:12 celeron55    it's like sapier thought that discussion was in any way enjoyable to others
13:13 celeron55    discussing about this sucks because everyone has different usage and sapier tries to go forward way too fast
13:14 celeron55    iqualfragile: the problem is, sticking with the current way complicates all mod-related tools
13:14 iqualfragile i, too think that pilzadams aproach would be the best idea for now
13:14 celeron55    and especially the UI
13:15 iqualfragile as most gamemodes are quite simmilar
13:16 iqualfragile we should reserve the modname "local" so serverowners can create custom extensions and are guaranteed to never run into collisions
13:20 celeron55    i don't think such is an issue at all
13:20 celeron55    it could be a recommended name for sure though
13:22 kaeza        "Games have nothing to do with mods; the user (and dependencies) has to decide if a mod fits to a game or not."
13:22 kaeza        I have a possible solution to this
13:22 kaeza        maybe add a "standalone =" setting to game.conf
13:22 iqualfragile ?
13:23 kaeza        if it's true, only mods within the game dir will be loaded
13:23 iqualfragile what should that signalize? dont put mods in here?
13:23 iqualfragile i dont think thats a good idea
13:25 kaeza        ok, just a brainfart :P
13:26 celeron55    while 0.4's design is quite intensely solid compared to what was needed at the time it was designed, these days i'm hoping it would've been designed to stand even further to the future...
13:26 celeron55    seriously, all that we are building on was completely overkill 1.5 years ago, but now it's not enough to anyone
13:27 celeron55    or maybe i'm fooled by the naysayers once again
13:27 celeron55    it's hard to tell
13:27 kaeza        minetest has shifted from being a "game" to being an "engine"
13:27 celeron55    naysayers should be illegal, they do nothing good to anything
13:28 celeron55    kaeza: it was well-known back then; it's starting to be more like a monster than an engine now 8)
13:28 RealBadAngel hi folks, whats up?
13:28 kaeza        so perhaps in the near future you could develop RPGs, FPSs, and things like that on top of it (as you said)
13:29 celeron55    RealBadAngel: the million kilometer long backlog is up there
13:29 RealBadAngel hehe, i will scroll and read
13:29 RealBadAngel just wanted to say hello
13:29 kaeza        hey RBA
13:29 kaeza        :)
13:29 celeron55    i don't recommend reading it, it's painful
13:30 iqualfragile hi RealBadAngel
13:30 celeron55    kaeza: the plan of 0.4 is to create a platform on which every corner of the genre set up by MC can be... tested
13:30 iqualfragile and i think thats enought
13:30 kaeza        if 3rd person view ever gets implemented, you could do a mario-like platformer in it :P
13:30 iqualfragile KISS
13:31 iqualfragile there is no need for minetest to be a monstrous game engine where you can create every thinkable game on
13:31 iqualfragile there are lots of other engines for other games
13:31 celeron55    it's just that MT combines that with server-side modding which complicates things
13:31 celeron55    so it divides and confuses people, and makes things more tedious to implement
13:32 celeron55    basically MT doesn't really know what it is, but it certainly has many likeable properties
13:33 RealBadAngel why painful? again renaming engine or something similar?
13:33 iqualfragile jup
13:33 iqualfragile i allways say that in minetest the game is created by the player (or the serveradmin)
13:33 iqualfragile and not the developers
13:34 RealBadAngel developers? never heard of them
13:34 RealBadAngel we just code here
13:35 iqualfragile thats why i did not put game designers there :D
13:35 iqualfragile afk
13:39 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/KrqC9RM.png
13:40 RealBadAngel i just learned how to properly UV map spheres in blender :)
13:40 kaeza        RealBadAngel, nice
13:42 RealBadAngel blender is another app very hard to master, as gimp before
13:42 RealBadAngel but once you get how the things work, you can do miracles
14:55 PilzAdam     RealBadAngel, if you dont wanna read logs: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5554242 this pretty much sums the result up
16:14 rubenwardy   game filter is so ugly
16:14 PilzAdam     it should be only visible in singleplayer
16:15 rubenwardy   and the texture does not wrap around
16:15 rubenwardy   I think that it should be more like a context menu
16:15 rubenwardy   with a dropdown with over game types
16:21 PilzAdam     also I dont get why would change the background image
16:23 rubenwardy   I quite like that as it is kind of skinning, but it might get annoying
16:30 VanessaE     *looks at PilzAdam's proposal* ...  isn't that what I said 5 hours ago? :)
16:30 VanessaE     *returns to scrollback*
16:33 VanessaE     ok, done.
16:34 VanessaE     sorry for the delay, had a technician over working on something.
16:34 Calinou      technician ö_ö
16:34 Calinou      that's pejorative
16:34 Jordach      did he use a mining drill?
16:34 VanessaE     my only contention with a mod manager is that it shouldn't try to overcomplicate shit.
16:34 Calinou      ^
16:35 VanessaE     it should manage exactly one thing:  loose mods/modpacks in whatever directories they go in.  Games should not be dealt with at all.
16:35 VanessaE     exactly as PilzAdam suggested.
16:36 VanessaE     <offtopic> (and if you MUST know, the technician was installing a powered stair lift for my husband) </offtopic>
16:36 ironzorg     somebody should stop merging requests and fix all those warnings
16:36 Jordach      rubenwardy, nick spam must stop
16:36 rubenwardy   I am making a hexchat script
16:37 rubenwardy   to automatically ghost, nick, identify
16:37 rubenwardy   I will exit all minetest channels
17:22 sapier       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/677 any (additional) comments?
17:24 sapier       plz tell me whats still wrong with it if it can be fixed I'll fix it if it can't be fixed I'll drop this pull request
17:24 PilzAdam     sapier, about your sky leak fix: how does the server use the sky?
17:25 sapier       I've already closed it as I can recreate the memory leak it once triggered
17:25 PilzAdam     it seems to work fine if I just drop the sky at game.cpp:3337
17:25 sapier       if this leak is currently only hidden I'll fix it once it reapears
17:26 sapier       if I remember correctly there was some issue with quick select menu using sky when rendering for some unknown reason
17:26 sapier       but I'm not sure about it
17:28 sapier       btw pilzadam you don't need any cleanup mod with mobf as mobf has its own cleanup capabilities
17:28 PilzAdam     see my comment in the forum
17:30 sapier       he did ask about removing vombies he didn't say everything ... for this usecase built in cleanup is best ... and to tell with vanessae's words storage is cheap just because there's sitting around lots of dead code this doesn't mean there's any performance impact with disabled mobf
17:31 rubenwardy   Would it not be possible to, on block load, check if the node is defined, and if it is not then delete it?
17:31 sapier       any real results on mod discussion after I left?
17:31 rubenwardy   I know it would be slower than an abm
17:32 PilzAdam     sapier, so, this could cause problems: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/782d06be460e81c9fe4760c78003ac6522676e82 ?
17:32 sapier       this has sideeffects too rubenwardy
17:34 sapier       if it doesn't result in double free in your case pilzadam it most likely will be fine. Maybe the real bug wasn't sky beeing deleted to early but some other things beeing done to late
17:35 sapier       rubenwardy e.g. if you accidently disable mobf you'll never get some mobs in spawned worlds again if any entity is deleted immediatly
17:35 sapier       and no I can't fix it because if I do everybody starts screaming "its so slow" again ;-)
17:35 rubenwardy   maybe you would have to activate it by going /clean
17:36 sapier       currently if you have set mobf to cleanup all disabled mobs will be deleted on activation
17:36 sapier       cleanup is not default setting to avoid mentioned problem
17:37 sapier       if you have any idea how to make this even more clear plz tell me
17:38 sapier       currently ppl seam to be so used to bad mod design they can't even imagine someone giving them possibility to cleanup correctly
17:39 PilzAdam     sapier, any idea how to trigger the double free bug (if its possible with this code at all)
17:41 sapier       the one I intended to fix happened on any shutdown after opening inventory (everything within valgrind)
17:41 sapier       but I couldn't reproduce it with current master
17:42 PilzAdam     well, the one I wanted to fix is: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5556066
17:42 PilzAdam     and this appears always when shutting down
17:43 sapier       thats not related to sky
17:44 PilzAdam     hm?
17:45 sapier       did you check if guitext_status is cleaned up?
17:45 PilzAdam     what? where?
17:46 PilzAdam     you mean this line is not related to sky? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/game.cpp#L1262
17:46 sapier       opps of by one line
17:46 sapier       codeline
17:46 sapier       oops? this code is completely different to what I was looking at
17:47 sapier       ok yes thats the issue I tried to fix by dropping it
17:47 sapier       but I didn't see it last time ... maybe I just overlooked
17:48 sapier       if you want to fix this you have to move pointer out of try block to have it available lateron
17:48 sapier       you can't delete it within the try block without causing problems
17:49 PilzAdam     that was my question: what problems and how to trigger them?
17:50 sapier       just closing a game
17:50 sapier       not directly returning to game
17:50 sapier       to os
17:51 sapier       problem was access of already freed memory
17:52 PilzAdam     that works fine
17:53 sapier       ok so the problem is gone
22:53 PilzAdam     sapier, the NodeDefManger in run_tests() leaks a lot of memory, do you have any idea why?
22:54 sapier       no I don't I've already fixed some leaks in tests but as they didn't care about cleaning up anything I'm not surprised there is more