Time Nick Message 01:37 hmmmm pilzadam, looks like it might be 01:37 hmmmm isStaticAllowed wasn't already implemented by ServerActiveObject? :\ 01:38 hmmmm didn't realize that what I wanted could be done so smoothly... i have to take a better look at this though 01:39 hmmmm and this is only one part of it, we still need to set staticize for drops such as saplings and mined blocks to false 01:40 hmmmm proller, why not run it with the whole thing in Debug? also, there aren't any other divisions in generateCaves(), so i don't know how that's possible 01:42 salamanderrake why did minetest start to get slower then minecraft, not nocking just wondering. 01:46 VanessaE slower how? 02:07 VanessaE Why does the code for growing saplings -> trees use the mapgen aliases instead of the real node names? 02:12 hmmmm because that's the whole point of mapgen aliases 02:16 VanessaE but growing a sapling into a tree isn't done at mapgen tine. 02:16 VanessaE time* 02:29 VanessaE am I right in that it is impossible to disable, delete, or otherwise remove default saplings from the game? 02:29 VanessaE from a mod that is. 02:32 hmmmm hmm boy you really hate the default trees don't you 02:32 VanessaE it's not that I hate them. 02:33 VanessaE it's that I wanted a single, central to replace them with something else. 02:33 hmmmm no, you can remove it from the game by modifying the mapgen aliases for leaves, tree, and saplings to air 02:33 VanessaE I already tried that, it doesn't actually work for saplings. 02:33 VanessaE (for trees, leaves it works fine) 02:33 VanessaE minetest.registered_items["sapling"] = nil 02:33 VanessaE minetest.registered_aliases["sapling"] = nil 02:33 VanessaE minetest.registered_aliases["mapgen_sapling"] = nil 02:33 VanessaE minetest.registered_aliases["mapgen_sapling"] = nil 02:33 VanessaE minetest.registered_items["default:sapling"] = nil 02:33 VanessaE minetest.registered_aliases["default:sapling"] = nil 02:34 VanessaE if that doesn't nuke them, nothing will. 02:34 hmmmm so what's wrong with just letting the player not be able to get a regular sapling in the first place? 02:34 VanessaE I tried that too. Something elsewhere in the engine or game code is overriding my code. 02:35 hmmmm if you aliased leaves to air, there's no way you'd be able to get saplings without /give 02:36 VanessaE creative mode. 02:36 hmmmm if it's a creative mode, are you right in banning regular trees from the user? 02:36 VanessaE the whole point is to rename, redefine, and replace them with something that I think is a little better - but using the default node names for compatibility. 02:37 VanessaE oh well. 02:42 hmmmm erm anyway 02:42 hmmmm what if we made trees grow gradually 02:43 hmmmm this can be done by having a special growing tree node that drops regular wood when mined, but has an ABM attached to it that scans upward to find the current height of the tree 02:43 hmmmm when it gets to a certain height, it stops growing 02:43 VanessaE I'd have to say no on that 02:44 hmmmm why, because it conflicts with your mod? 02:44 VanessaE it precludes the idea of a tree that can branch out from the center trunk 02:44 hmmmm you can do that if you'd like 02:44 hmmmm the vertical height from the center is just a way of gauging its current stage of growth 02:45 hmmmm besides, it's better than nothing 04:18 hmmmm i just can't do this anymore 04:18 hmmmm school, minetest, and the rest of life is like a full time job 04:19 hmmmm if only i were multithreaded 04:19 hmmmm basically minetest comes to a halt when i'm busy with other things, i really wish that wasn't the case 04:20 hmmmm but i wonder if that's so bad... is minetest growing too fast, or not fast enough? 04:20 hmmmm i feel like not fast enough, but that's only from my perspective... others can't seem to ever have a stable release from git 04:21 hmmmm what do all of you guys think about the current pace of minetest development? 04:22 VanessaE I think it's fine in fact. 04:22 VanessaE If you need to slow down, do so 04:22 VanessaE don't burn out. 04:23 hmmmm no, i'm not burning out at all.... i just wish i could spend more time doing things that need to get done 04:23 VanessaE ah 04:24 hmmmm like the lua MapVoxelManipulator is something that everybody needs, like right now, but it's so far off because of all the other things that need to be done first 04:24 hmmmm optimizing mobs is another thing that we need *right now* but we'll probably never get to 04:25 hmmmm and none of this can happen until i get done with the myriad of other things on my TODO list and the endless flood of shit from school 04:25 hmmmm i'm so lucky i don't have to study for anything, because then i'd have no time at all for real 04:26 VanessaE and here I have tons of free time but I just can't get my head wrapped around C++ 04:26 VanessaE with I could "donate" some of that spare time :-) 04:27 hmmmm it's really not that hard at all 04:27 VanessaE you know, go off to sleep and you use my extra shares :) 04:28 hmmmm and you'd probably make a good developer for minetest, too, if only because you're already familiar with the way things work 04:37 hmmmm I think I have a solution to the whole Lua init/mapgen params mess; i would like to add another callback called on_mapgen_init() to be called once after the mapgens have been created, in the Server ctor, this is where you'd be able to register the mapgen-specific on_generate along with any mapgen-specific ores you may want to add 04:37 hmmmm i'll do this sometime during the week 04:50 VanessaE nice 05:20 VanessaE here's an idea: Stuff in the distance should not appear just in front of the fog. Rather, it should fade in. I think this could be accomplished by simply drawing the fog "closer" 05:20 VanessaE (relative to the view distance) 05:21 VanessaE or make the fog get thicker in the distance than it does now, something like that. 05:26 celeron55 07:19:53 <+hmmmm> basically minetest comes to a halt when i'm busy with other things, i really wish that wasn't the case 05:26 celeron55 i don't think so 05:27 hmmmm explain why there have not been any commits in the that i either didn't do myself or people waited for me to give it the okay to do it 05:27 hmmmm in the past i don't even know how long* 05:28 celeron55 minetest is about more than just commits to core 8) 05:29 hmmmm people can develop all they want, but it needs to get committed... and reviewed, and tested, and all of the things that come along with it 05:29 celeron55 also, people will like to use you as the okay-giver because you're currently using the most time for developing core; they'll ask someone else when you're not around 05:29 hmmmm it's practically nothing in comparison to the effort necessary to actually write the code, but nevertheless it takes time 05:30 hmmmm when people want things committed, whatever i'm working on comes to a halt too. i counted only 2.5 days worth of quality time to work on mapgen v7 05:32 hmmmm it's good that i am looking over everything of sapiers' memory leak fixes though, because i caught a couple things that would've caused a lot of problems had they been blindly merged 05:32 hmmmm i don't know, maybe it's fine this way and i'm just frustrated because i can't do more of what i like to do 05:32 celeron55 i suggest just not caring about other things when you want to work on it - at some point minetest can cross the line of one person not being able to handle everything that goes upstream 05:34 hmmmm ha ha... you mean like right now? 05:34 hmmmm the pull requests are backing up 05:35 celeron55 well, i have tried to choose all core developers from such people who are generally wise enough to not merge things they aren't able to check (with their knowledge or time) 05:35 hmmmm if pilzadam weren't around it'd probably be up to 100 by now 05:39 celeron55 churning through pull requests is the kind of thing most people won't do unless they're paid to do it 05:42 celeron55 because... well, you have so much responsibility and need so much knowledge that you could use much more creatively elsewhere 05:42 celeron55 and at the same time you need to tell most people they suck at coding 05:43 celeron55 really the only thing that would scale here would be something like linux does 05:44 celeron55 but as it doesn't seem to emerge out of nothing even in a very tiny extent, i guess it's impossible 05:44 hmmmm doesn't linux have 3 people at the top deciding what gets merged? 05:44 hmmmm that's really bad, is it not? 05:44 celeron55 linux kind of has a "tree of trust" 05:46 celeron55 the 3 people at the top don't really need to check much anything; they just get large bunches of patches from maybe 3 people each, who in order get similarly more from other people; each person manages some subsystem and knows the quirks of the code and the people who send patches to them 05:46 hmmmm well, i trust pilzadam completely to do all minetest_game related things and most of the core things 05:46 hmmmm 8) 05:46 celeron55 it will scale infinitely as long as new people "attach" to the lower end of the tree 05:46 celeron55 we don't have even a single layer of such 05:47 hmmmm ...perhaps we should start making something like that 05:47 celeron55 it could be worth a try, but i'm somewhat pessimistic of the possible results 05:48 hmmmm why, not enough qualified people? 05:48 celeron55 but basically how to start is pointing core devs to certain parts of the code, and telling all new contributors to note their pull requests to the respective people 05:48 celeron55 and stating that the goal is to scale like linux 05:50 celeron55 i once (or twice) suggested this before, but as the idea took zero traction, i just threw it away 05:50 celeron55 now as there are two liking it, it might work 8) 05:52 celeron55 i do believe that you can get a lot more motivation from people if you give them actual responsibilities, of the size that they are able to manage - but the starting point to that needs to be that there are capable enough people 05:52 hmmmm right 05:52 hmmmm who here is capable.. 05:52 hmmmm and more importantly, at what 05:53 hmmmm we already know the answers to that though 05:53 celeron55 actually it doesn't even require much skills, other than knowing what one *doesn't* know, so one can ask those who know and learn at the process 05:53 celeron55 that skill seems to be a lot asked these days though :-D 05:53 celeron55 "I KNOW C++ WHAT DOES i++ DO?" 05:54 hmmmm indeed, a lot of people seem to think that they just pick up C++ and then they can start developing 05:55 hmmmm well 05:55 hmmmm that's what i did 05:56 hmmmm but that's different 05:56 hmmmm i already knew how to code 05:57 hmmmm yes, that's the difference... there are those who know how to code, and those who know a language 05:58 hmmmm what makes minetest so attractive to beginning developers, who lack the former? 05:58 VanessaE Lua. 05:59 VanessaE one easy language somehow translates to others being equally easy. 05:59 VanessaE (even if it doesn't) 05:59 hmmmm no, it's not that, i see the kind of people celeron is talking about on the forums and such 06:00 hmmmm the subset of people who contribute right now, i'd say, know both how to code and the details enough to be effective (if they weren't effective coders, we wouldn'tve accepted their code in the first place) 06:00 celeron55 they're young 06:01 celeron55 people will know what they don't know much better when they get 18 or 20 or so 06:02 hmmmm heh, it's probably good that I don't have as much of a background with C++, so I can be the voice of sanity when people want to go overboard with messy C++ features 06:02 hmmmm if i had to do it all over again though, i'd do minetest in C 06:03 hmmmm there's just something about C++ that makes it feel dirty 06:05 celeron55 it's dirtily powerful too though 06:05 ssieb I'm trying to package minetest, but there's a problem. The common mods don't get put into common, so the server doesn't start. Obviously, I moved them over, but shouldn't they get installed properly? 06:05 hmmmm at the same time, i guess it's nice that i am forced to work with C++, and i gained another skill in the process 06:05 celeron55 like, in terms of if you know what you're doing, you're going to get much more of everything out of your code than in C 06:06 celeron55 ssieb: the CMakeLists.txt of 0.4.6 lacks the commands to do that; that was added slightly after 06:06 hmmmm i know what you mean, everything takes longer when you're doing minetest-related code in C, but it isn't something that can't be solved with well-used macros 06:06 ssieb I have master and it still doesn't seem to do it 06:07 celeron55 then i have no idea 8) 06:07 ssieb the common directory isn't created anywhere 06:07 ssieb it works for you? 06:07 * hmmmm hasn't updated minetest_game since 0.4.4 06:07 hmmmm no idea here 06:07 ssieb oh :-) 06:07 hmmmm the common directory was celeron's whole idea though 06:08 hmmmm he *should* know 06:08 celeron55 but it was mostly implemented by other people! 06:08 celeron55 :D 06:08 celeron55 ssieb: you didn't really explain precisely enough for me to know what you are actually even doing 06:09 ssieb following the compiling instructions 06:09 ssieb I have master of minetest, I get master of minetest_game, put it in games, then run the compile and install 06:09 ssieb where is the games/common directory supposed to come from? 06:09 celeron55 you need https://github.com/minetest/common too 06:10 ssieb oh... something to add to the compiling instructions? 06:10 celeron55 where are these outdated compiling instructions you are talking about? 06:10 ssieb http://dev.minetest.net/Compiling_Minetest 06:10 celeron55 the amount of repositories sucks though, i think we should do something about that 06:11 celeron55 maybe an "integration repo" where everything in the main distribution would be thrown in 06:13 celeron55 well, added that one quickly there 06:13 celeron55 you might want to get the survival or build game too, but they aren't really necessary at the moment 06:15 ssieb oh, those are separate repositories too? 06:15 * ssieb checks the list 06:16 celeron55 yeah, welcome to git clone git clone git clone git clone git clone 06:16 ssieb I see that part of the moreores mod has been incorporated, how will this interact in an existing world? 06:17 ssieb e.g. there are two different recipes for bronze 06:17 ssieb but tin wasn't included... 06:17 ssieb so I can't remove the moreores mod 06:18 celeron55 i believe if you download the most recent moreores, it should handle that well enough in... some way 06:18 ssieb oh good, ok, I'll try that 06:18 * ssieb didn't think of that... 06:20 ssieb yes, I see that was done. 06:29 hmmmm the entire moreores wasn't added, we only picked the subset of features we all agreed on 06:29 hmmmm those ores were aliased to moreores for compatibility 06:29 ssieb I realize that, that's why I was concerned about the interaction 06:29 hmmmm if you actually want moreores, you still need to download moreores 06:30 ssieb but I see that the moreores author has modified it to handle that 06:31 * ssieb is currently building rpm packages on several machines... 06:31 hmmmm we work with popular mod authors if we add or do something that is relevant to their mod 06:32 ssieb I find the server gets rather laggy when (I assume) there is flowing liquid nearby 06:32 * ssieb hopes to get a chance to poke a debugger at it soon... 06:33 hmmmm water flowing shouldn't be laggy under normal conditions 06:35 ssieb something is making it really laggy sometimes and that's the only thing I can think of 06:35 ssieb I turned off the cheat checks and that improved things a lot, but not entirely 06:36 hmmmm what kind of hardware are you running minetest on? 06:36 ssieb AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 06:36 celeron55 and are you running some laggy mod? 06:37 ssieb is there a list of those? :-) 06:37 hmmmm mobs 06:37 ssieb no 06:37 celeron55 map generation mods 06:37 hmmmm yeah those can and will hang up the server 06:37 celeron55 (which aren't laggy after the world has generated though) 06:38 ssieb only moreores that I know of for map generation 06:38 hmmmm hmmmm, it's possible that could be it 06:38 hmmmm i hope not though 06:38 ssieb and it's laggy when (I think) there shouldn't be any generation 06:39 VanessaE fwiw, there was a time not long ago where the water pyramid on redcrab's server would cause a pretty significant performance loss just by being in view... 06:39 VanessaE (and it was just wool and flowing water) 06:40 ssieb I'll try with the latest build and see what happens 06:41 ssieb the kids are really enjoying it, but they are getting a little frustrated with the blocks popping in and out while they're digging... 06:41 hmmmm i've lived through that for a while and i know how frusturating that is 06:42 hmmmm perhaps you can increase the server step interval to something less demanding 06:42 ssieb I'll try that if it's still a problem 06:43 hmmmm :( 06:43 hmmmm i do all this optimization and in the long run it still doesn't help much 06:52 ssieb is there any plan to allow compiled mods? or is that something you can do with lua without needing specific support in the server? 06:52 VanessaE ssieb: LuaJIT support just made it into upstream in fact. 06:53 ssieb upstream? 06:53 VanessaE that's about as good an improvement as one can get for now, barring further improvements to the engine (or to LuaJIT itseld) 06:53 VanessaE upstream = the Minetest source code repository 06:53 ssieb I noticed there was some debate about whether that was actually faster or not 06:53 ssieb I'm not familiar with lua so I was wondering if there was some way to include binary modules like python can 07:09 celeron55 the only way supported is making a patch to the core that implements something to call from mods 07:10 celeron55 we don't really see much benefit from supporting a binary interface 07:12 celeron55 well, if you insist on writing some kind of binary modules, lua supports such like python and you can wrap them to the existing interface with lua 07:13 celeron55 there exists a minetest chat->irc wrapper written somehow like that 07:15 ssieb oh, right, I did see that one 07:28 ssieb well, my rpms are built and the server works properly, so it's time to sleep :-) 07:35 emptty ssieb: can you please point me to your repo? 07:35 emptty I'm currently updating the debian packaging, and I was wondering if you could have some interesting patches ^^ 07:46 VanessaE or use my build :) 08:00 BlockMen celeron55, you should rename the wiki to "Minetest", because now the pagetitels are e.g. "Minetest Wiki - Download" ;) 08:01 BlockMen and when i tried to register, it did not send the email with pw, also not when i clicked "send new password". could you chek that too? 08:10 celeron55 BlockMen: renamed; and about e-mail sending: i tested it yesterday and it did work 08:11 celeron55 maybe you have some overly jealous spam filter that doesn't like the way it sends e-mail via a regular domestic ISP's server 08:16 VanessaE celeron55: "overzealous" 08:16 VanessaE bbl 08:17 celeron55 ehm... well whatever, some word like that 8) 12:20 * VanessaE is back. 12:59 Taoki So after two days of work, I can reveal my (hopefully pleasant) surprise for Minetest: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=82728 13:00 Taoki This is hopefully a mod that will allow many new exciting things, such as sharing buildings via IRC or forum and creating villages or cities in mapgen easily 13:00 Taoki Still a lot to do though 13:06 celeron55 i don't see that as anything more than what worldedit already does 13:07 celeron55 you could've used worldedit's format and went directly for the generation thing 13:07 celeron55 (and what it does, worldedit does better - WE saves node metadata too) 13:08 PilzAdam object collission is broken 13:09 PilzAdam the rat in my mobs mob gets constantly pushed upwards 13:09 PilzAdam collisionbox = {-0.25, -0.175, -0.25, 0.25, 0.1, 0.25}, 13:13 jin_xi a propos generating structures: here is an example of structures made with turtle graphics. i think that could be a flexible way of adding all sorts of stuff to biomes: http://i.imgur.com/qhWjgHq.png 13:17 Taoki celeron55: Not sure how worldedit works, but likely not the same way as this mod 13:17 Taoki Wanted to go for a simple implementation where you use a core and 3 markers to mark an area you work with, and allow working with text files. Then adding that to the map I/O 13:19 Taoki This mod is also meant for importing / exporting a single structure per file to work with, and possibly allowing multiple folders of structures 13:21 Jordach we should have a candy land biome 13:21 blue42u We SHOULD have Lua biomes. 13:21 Taoki Jordach: With mapgen v7 we can 13:21 Taoki blue42u: ^ 13:22 blue42u YAY! 13:24 blue42u Question: Should all gui-related lua command strings use the same syntax? 13:27 blue42u i.e. Formspec looks like this: "list[current_player;main;0,5;8,4;]". Should other gui things use a similar syntax? 13:33 blue42u Ok, more specific. I'm trying to add Lua hud to th game, but I'm not sure whether to change the syntax. Currently, its "inv~main~0~0~1~5", or somthing like that. Should I change it? 14:38 BlockMen celeron55, i have disabled my spam filter and tried again, but i still get no mail. could you set a temp-pw that i can check mail adress and set pw manual? 15:42 hmmmm oh yes 15:42 hmmmm blue42u is around 15:42 hmmmm too bad i don't have any time for minetest this week 15:42 hmmmm it'd be great to get the bar api in 15:43 Calinou yells at paramat for not coding correctly 15:43 Calinou wants the bar API to be in 15:44 hmmmm like i said, i'd be basing the work off of his, not entirely using it 15:44 hmmmm did i yell at paramat? who is paramat btw 15:44 hmmmm i see him on the forums but never irc 15:44 Calinou the noise guy 15:45 hmmmm prestidigitator? 15:45 hmmmm he's not 15:45 hmmmm they work together though 15:45 VanessaE Calinou: nick recognition FAIL :) 15:45 Calinou let's just call him the noise guy 15:46 VanessaE paramat's the guy doing landup, canals, floatlands, etc. 15:46 hmmmm from the code of blue42u i've seen, it seems quite reasonable 15:46 hmmmm anyway we need more of a consensus on how the bar api should work, like should the server really have complete control over arbitrary drawing of elements on the client's UI and such 15:47 VanessaE definitely not 15:47 hmmmm that's what his lua hud api is able to do 15:47 hmmmm a big detail in the bar api is to restrict where things are drawn 15:47 Calinou VanessaE: server can already rickroll clients 15:47 VanessaE it should be something where the mod can say "ok, I want a bar that measures X points with Z number of images, placed in bar slot Y", and the engine decides where slot Y is. 15:48 VanessaE s/engine/client 15:48 VanessaE / 15:48 hmmmm that's sound though, and it can be disabled 15:49 VanessaE and if slot Y is taken by a mod, it gets moved to slot Y+1 or something. 15:49 hmmmm and it's not entirely about protecting clients against malicious servers, it's just making things neat and orderly 15:49 Calinou but people with sound can still be rickrolled 15:49 Calinou ah 15:49 hmmmm indeed 15:49 hmmmm what vanessa just said 15:49 VanessaE limit the number of available slots to, oh, 6 including the default health bar should do it I think 15:49 hmmmm the thing is, you can't rely on a mod knowing where to put the bars 15:50 VanessaE exactly, otherwise you have mods sticking them all over the damn screen, or over top of one another 15:50 celeron55 hmmmm: i think it should be very free 15:50 VanessaE or partially off-screen, etc. 15:50 celeron55 hmmmm: we have no reason to restrict anything that is shown on the screen 15:50 VanessaE maybe it can use the formspec style of positioning stuff 15:51 celeron55 hmmmm: if you restrict something, people will just complain about it; if you don't restrict, people are free to choose mods that behave sanely 15:51 Calinou ^ I agree 15:51 celeron55 instead of restrictions, we should provide means for mods to behave sanely 15:51 Calinou can the bar API draw text anywhere on the client's screen? would be very useful too 15:51 hmmmm yeah, i did expect people to complain 15:51 Calinou (and it'd be even better if you could change text opacity) 15:52 hmmmm the other thing is that you could provide placement hints 15:52 hmmmm but 15:52 celeron55 for example, (i haven't read any of the pull request) there should be a way to stick elements to offsets from the sides and corners of the screen without guessing resolutions or anything 15:52 hmmmm blue42u's lua hud api is more than bars and numbers 15:52 ShadowNinja perhaps the option for manual placement or automatic? 15:54 celeron55 really the modern way to go about this would be to overlay webkit on top of the 3D renderings :P 15:54 hmmmm the original conception of the bar api was to not only provide a way of stupidly drawing things onto a client's hud, but a way to internally maintain values that are set and the client responds to it by drawing the hud api on its own, not just modifying the hud string 15:54 celeron55 many recent games do that 15:54 ShadowNinja celeron55: the new website design, will everything be transfered from your domain when all of the pages are made? 15:54 hmmmm shadowninja, what's wrong with hints? 15:55 celeron55 ShadowNinja: transferred from my domain? 15:55 ShadowNinja what do you mean be hints? 15:55 hmmmm how about you provide the rect where it's drawn, but there's also an api to get the positioning of where the next bar should be 15:55 ShadowNinja from c55.me 15:55 ShadowNinja ah, yes, that sounds good 15:56 VanessaE that I could agree with. 15:56 celeron55 ShadowNinja: well, www.minetest.net is currently the same machine as c55.me, so of course 15:56 VanessaE as long as there's some way to know that a bar will always end up in a given position relative to the existing health bar or whatever 15:57 celeron55 i'll be looking for hosting of this elsewhere eventually though 15:57 ShadowNinja ok, can I have the privs to edit it then? 15:57 VanessaE hmmmm: what about a concept of vertical bars at the sides of the screen? widescreen users might enjoy that 15:57 VanessaE (I have no use for such, myself) 15:57 hmmmm perhaps 15:57 celeron55 ShadowNinja: i think you do have now - but don't do that yet, there are some changes to be made still 15:57 hmmmm it's all possible at this point 15:57 Jordach VanessaE, i quite like the idea of vertical bars 15:58 ShadowNinja ok, just tell me when it is ready 16:07 ShadowNinja hmmmm: how long did default register_on_generated take befofe LuaJIT? 16:14 hmmmm not much, because it didn't do very much after i moved ores out of there 16:14 hmmmm the point of luajit is to speed up lua in general so it doesn't feel like a laggy piece of shit as much 16:15 hmmmm basically everything is smoother now 17:24 blue42u So, what needs to be done to fix my hud api? 17:25 Exio hmmmm: ^ 17:28 ShadowNinja blue42u: It was decided that mods should have a way to get a unoccupied position for a bar 17:30 blue42u Does the syntax need to be changed? 17:31 ShadowNinja I don't think so 17:31 ShadowNinja better ask hmmmm 17:33 blue42u Well, hmmmm? 17:35 celeron55 someone implement this tool in minetest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=srj0yopOJ_Y#t=354s 17:37 VanessaE celeron55: technic mining laser 17:37 VanessaE MK3 can do something like that 17:37 VanessaE but not as fancy 17:38 hmmmm "fix"? 17:39 blue42u Well, improve. 17:39 hmmmm it's not really "fix" as it is "change" to fit with what we wanted 17:39 hmmmm you see, we had the idea a while back to have a "bar api" 17:39 hmmmm which does almost what your lua hud does 17:39 hmmmm http://dev.minetest.net/TODO#Bar_API 17:39 blue42u So... what do I need to do? 17:40 hmmmm humm 17:40 hmmmm i didn't see exactly how your code works for that, but from what i understand, you get a string that describes the HUD, and when health changes or something, you remove the bar and add the new one? 17:40 Exio Set bar value (bar identifier, new value). Happens on a Lua defined-event (someone gets hit and takes damage, or w/e). 17:40 hmmmm yeah? 17:40 Exio (for what i see) 17:41 Exio uh-hu, lag 17:41 hmmmm but anyway 17:41 hmmmm the big difference between the bar api and the lua hud is that the bar api maintains a counter for each of these bar values 17:41 hmmmm both on the client and on the server 17:41 blue42u Ah. 17:41 hmmmm so the server wouldn't send a new bar to be created 17:41 hmmmm it'd just update the value of an existing bar, given a bar ID 17:42 hmmmm also 17:42 hmmmm it was our idea to restrict where bars can be placed, but what will likely happen is that people would complain about the restrictions 17:42 hmmmm but there can't be chaos on the client screen either 17:43 hmmmm so what would be good is to have a get_next_bar_position() API that queries the lua hud subsystem for where it should place the next bar 17:43 hmmmm but also this is client-dependent based on resolution and all that stuff 17:43 hmmmm which complicates things 17:44 blue42u So, if bar "data" == amount, and text "data" == text, and image "data" == image name, and inv "data" == list name? 17:44 Exio get_next_bar_?? how would the server know the client's resolution? (what can change in any moment, if the client uses a window and resizes the screen) 17:44 hmmmm erm, i don't mean to implement it like that 17:44 blue42u Which is why I used porportional coords. 17:44 hmmmm exio, the position would be proportional 17:44 hmmmm yeah 17:44 Exio ah, perfect 17:45 hmmmm but the client would maintain a data structure with the style of the bar, bar position, etc. 17:45 hmmmm your code right now is dirt simple 17:45 hmmmm that's a good thing 17:45 Exio i didn't know that, sorry then :P 17:45 hmmmm but it's also not as flexible as it ought to be 17:45 hmmmm (not as flexible as i had planned either) 17:45 blue42u So... how flexible? 17:46 hmmmm have the client and server maintain copies of a vector containing Bar objects, each of which have a texture name, texture pointer, value, position on screen, name string, etc. 17:47 hmmmm keep in mind this what i'm thinking of off the top of my head 17:47 blue42u "name string"? Or "id string"? 17:47 hmmmm name string 17:47 hmmmm the ID would be numerical 17:47 blue42u Well, I always use id strings. :) 17:47 hmmmm yuck 17:48 blue42u When I can. 17:48 blue42u My first language was Smalltalk. Can you guess? 17:48 hmmmm not really, from what i've seen of your code, it's quite sane 17:49 hmmmm just make sure you read this over http://dev.minetest.net/Code_style_guidelines 17:49 hmmmm and they're guidelines, not absolute rules... this is just to preserve neatness and whatnot 17:50 blue42u I've been coding Python for about 5 months, then working on robotics, then... 17:50 blue42u I'm multi-lingual. 17:50 blue42u I learned c++ in a week. 17:51 blue42u See my anxiety? 17:51 hmmmm erm 17:51 hmmmm what matters most is that you know how to _code_ 17:51 hmmmm having prior experience with C/++ helps though 17:51 blue42u yeah. 17:52 hmmmm if your code's good, it'll be accepted, no matter what your experience is 17:52 blue42u Anyway. "texture pointer"? We use strings to do that! 17:52 blue42u == "texture name" 17:53 hmmmm from what I recall, getTextureByName() locks a mutex evverrrrry single time it's called 17:53 blue42u Really? I forgot this was multithreaded. 17:54 hmmmm oh yes 17:54 VanessaE hmmmm: why the hell would one use a lock on ...an image read routine? 17:54 blue42u And, would "name string" be used for identification? 17:54 hmmmm i'm not overly worried about it, but it's in poor taste and completely unnecessary inefficiency 17:55 hmmmm no, the ID would be (this is for bars though, remember?) 17:55 hmmmm your lua HUD api does more than bars from what i recall 17:55 hmmmm vanessae, i'm not sure, i should probably check 17:55 hmmmm *opens minetest* 17:56 VanessaE heh, I meant generically. 17:56 blue42u True. But 1) a numarical id could give a conflict and 2) the names arnt displayed anyway. 17:57 hmmmm i was hoping we could eventually have a screen that'd show all the currently used bars 17:57 hmmmm along with the names 17:57 hmmmm if we were to add the name for the bar later, that'd make us need to change the protocol version again 17:57 blue42u Now, THAT would be cool. 17:57 blue42u Ill start writing my todo list again... 17:59 hmmmm hmm, i guess the MeshMaking thread uses the atlas? 17:59 hmmmm I don't know but it doesn't seem right now that you point it out 17:59 hmmmm we should investigate further and remove this lock if it's unnecessary 18:01 hmmmm and blue42u, nevermind about the texture pointer I guess... just store the texture ID so it doesn't lock *twice* at least 18:01 hmmmm we'll fix that later if we do end up removing the locks 18:01 blue42u k! 18:04 hmmmm yeah, that's a general rule of thumb, especially for us.. if there's a more efficient way of doing something, and it doesn't hurt anything else by doing that, just do it 18:04 blue42u Well, I tried. 18:05 blue42u Does the bar data NEED to be known by the server? 18:05 hmmmm it needs to be known by the mod at least 18:05 blue42u Well, that would be the modders job, right? 18:05 hmmmm I guess 18:05 PilzAdam yes, there should be a function player:get_hud() 18:06 hmmmm wait, why? 18:08 PilzAdam mods should be able to restructure the whole thing, if there is no get_hud() then other mods' stuff will be lost 18:08 blue42u It could just remember it itself. 18:09 blue42u An extra var somewhere... 18:09 PilzAdam sapier, line_of_site() and object <-> object collision is broken 18:09 sapier remembering itself adds problem of recursion depth 18:09 sapier how is line of sight broken? 18:09 sapier los doesn't honor glass this is intended 18:09 PilzAdam *line_of_sight() 18:10 BlockMen could it be that costumizeable that a mod can change the complete hud and add new bars (like health bar) too? 18:10 celeron55 without reading your previous discussion, i think it could work so that when a mod adds something to it, it also always assigns a name for what it adds; then the parts could be removed or updated by name if needed 18:10 celeron55 and mods don't need to touch other mod's stuff 18:10 blue42u == id 18:10 celeron55 so, it wouldn't even expose anything to get everything, or remove everything, or replace everything 18:11 blue42u BlockMen: Thats what we're talking about. 18:11 blue42u Explain, celeron55. 18:11 hmmmm actually there seems to be the opposite sentiment within the community 18:12 hmmmm lots of people want to be able to interfere with other mods 18:12 hmmmm so they can override things (which is a horrible policy to begin with) 18:12 sapier Pilzadam can you tell me what s broken with object object collision? 18:12 blue42u Give me the decition on a comment of the pull, I have to go. 18:12 Jordach sapier, for some reason the rats in simple mobs literally fly away 18:12 hmmmm line_of_sight doesn't return the right value or something 18:12 VanessaE if I couldn't "interfere" with other mods, I couldn't redefine apples so that they fall. 18:12 PilzAdam sapier, things with little collisionboxes (like the rat in simple mobs) get constantly pushed upwards 18:13 hmmmm vanessa, not you, others 18:13 PilzAdam sapier, and line_of_sight() returns the step param 18:14 Jordach quick question: why are caves, trees and dungeons disabled by default? 18:14 sapier I'll fix line of sight ... how can small objects be pushed up? 18:14 hmmmm caves and trees are disabled by default? 18:14 hmmmm what world do you live in 18:14 Jordach apparently its in the stable 18:14 Jordach i have to append minetest.conf with mg_flags = trees, caves 18:15 Jordach before they appear again 18:15 hmmmm and? 18:15 Jordach they return 18:15 hmmmm did you read the default value for mg_flags? 18:15 Jordach hm? 18:15 PilzAdam sapier, I doesnt happen if I revert object <-> object collision commit, so you have broken it 18:15 celeron55 of course "mg_flags = " will remove them 18:15 celeron55 it's a setting value, not some "append these to the mapgen" thing 18:15 hmmmm ugh 18:16 hmmmm the faster i can get a UI for all of the mapgen things, the faster people will stop with not knowing what they're doing 18:16 hmmmm i guess that's what i'm working on after mapgen v7 18:16 sapier you seam to be very proud ;-) ... no matter I'll investigate and have a look if it's really an error 18:16 Jordach celeron55, it's apparent that 0.4.5 worlds miss the mg_flags parameters 18:16 Jordach same for stable builds as 0.4.6 18:17 celeron55 to mix up this discussion even more, this is now deemed to go live after it has all the necessary content: http://c55.me/minetest4/doku.php 18:17 celeron55 it uses this dokuwiki template, which can be polished if you find small errors: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest.net_dokutemplate 18:18 celeron55 if you don't have other use for your time, consider registering there and asking me privileges so you can fill in content 18:18 Jordach that's a really nice template 18:18 ShadowNinja celeron55: can I add content now? 18:18 celeron55 ShadowNinja: yes 18:18 celeron55 i belive you should have the privileges for that 18:18 hmmmm the development dropdown menu has overlapping text 18:18 Jordach celeron55, signed up as Jordach 18:18 celeron55 Jordach: did the password e-mail work? i have gotten a complaint about it 18:19 Jordach celeron55, noreply@minetest.net works in gmail 18:19 celeron55 good 18:19 celeron55 Jordach, PilzAdam: you now can edit 18:20 Jordach sweet. 18:21 celeron55 the template contains all the navigation menus and other things, so stuff about it can be added as issues on the github repo 18:21 BlockMen hmmmm, could you post screenshot? 18:21 PilzAdam oh god the page is slow 18:21 PilzAdam celeron55, get a better internet connection 18:22 Jordach PilzAdam, not slow for me 18:24 celeron55 and a policy on adding pages on the site: don't add pages that don't have direct navigation links at the top without first asking others - the goal is to keep that page as a front portal to minetest, and keep larger content in wikis and on the forum 18:26 Jordach i just updated the current feature list 18:26 celeron55 i need to get a faster host for the site, but it's not something i can do in a short notice :P 18:27 celeron55 Jordach: the front page is missing all it's links, you might want to collect them back to it from minetest.net 18:27 Jordach I changed the features bit to this: "Walk around, dig and build in an infinite voxel world (or boxel, as reddit calls it), and craft stuff from raw materials such as diamonds, MESE, Gold and other materials to build your dream world." 18:27 Jordach celeron55, ^^ 18:28 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/636 Line of sight fix 18:28 Jordach that's fast 18:28 sapier was a silly error 18:28 sapier los was just waste result of pathfinding ;-) 18:28 hmmmm yeah, pilzadam, http://ompldr.org/vaTFqdQ 18:30 celeron55 that goes to BlockMen 18:30 PilzAdam hmm? 18:30 sapier lol ... commited wrong file only 18:31 hmmmm oh 18:31 hmmmm blockmen 18:31 hmmmm i must've thought pilz asked me because their names have similar shapes and length, i didn't really read it, etc. 18:37 Jordach anyways, you'll notice a huge difference from the old homepage to what i've modified 18:37 BlockMen hmmmm, thx 18:38 sapier can someone tell me how to drop something in latest minetest? :-) 18:38 Jordach sapier, q key 18:39 sapier thx 18:39 Jordach sapier, you could have asked #minetest 18:39 Jordach or even read the manual 18:39 sapier lol yes I could but would have taken looooot of more time ;-) 18:39 Exio this is funny 18:39 sapier pilzadam how small is your rat? 18:39 Jordach anyways, removing the nerd jargon helps new people understand the game better 18:40 PilzAdam sapier, collisionbox = {-0.2, 0, -0.2, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2}, 18:41 BlockMen hmmmm, it is caused by the font. do you have zoom? or does someone else have that large font size? 18:41 thexyz IceCraft: please, no away nicks 18:41 BlockMen *zoomed 18:41 IceCraft Yeah sorry 18:41 IceCraft I will part until i fixed the problem 18:41 IceCraft :/ 18:41 VanessaE bbl 18:42 PilzAdam is that ok like this: http://c55.me/minetest4/doku.php?id=contributors 18:42 sapier strange I just tried an animalmaterials egg wich is -0.12,-0.125,-0.12,0.12,0.125,0.12 it doesn't happen there 18:43 hmmmm ahhhh 18:43 celeron55 PilzAdam: looks good 18:43 hmmmm blockmen, i didn't really think that my font was really that big 18:43 hmmmm but i see what's happening 18:44 celeron55 PilzAdam: altough... i don't really want my e-mail so exposed 18:44 hmmmm there's nothing you can really do about it 18:44 Jordach anyways, ive done some new stuff on the main page if anyone's interested 18:44 celeron55 i already get enough mails with the cryptic e-mail representation that currently is on minetest.net 18:45 celeron55 so change it somehow; maybe even remove altogether 18:45 PilzAdam anyone else doesnt want the e-mail there: http://c55.me/minetest4/doku.php?id=contributors 18:45 sapier there has to be another thing to happen too to cause this bug pilzadam 18:45 PilzAdam ^ hmmmm, thexyz, darkrose, RealBadAngel, proller 18:46 PilzAdam sapier, they also have acceleration = {0,-10,0} and physical = true 18:48 PilzAdam BlockMen, not all links in the header turn red when pointing with the mouse at them 18:48 sapier no difference to egg pilzadam ... except beeing -9.81 but I doubt this makes a difference 18:49 thexyz PilzAdam: i'd like some basic anti-bot protection 18:50 thexyz like making captcha-style image displaying my email, then cutting it into pieces 1 pixel wide and inserting them into page 18:50 PilzAdam ummm 18:50 sapier but plz don't add one of those captchas driving even human ppl mad 18:50 PilzAdam you can do that if you want 18:50 thexyz well, it doesn't have to be hard to read 18:50 PilzAdam Ill remove your e-mail for now 18:51 thexyz i hope bots are too stupid to see page history 18:51 PilzAdam isnt your e-mail on github too? 18:51 Jordach thexyz, usually bots arent that smart, they look for keywords like email password new user, register 18:51 BlockMen PilzAdam, i noticed that at Firefox only. and i have no idea why it does 18:52 BlockMen someone want change? i just took the first ten mods with most hits http://c55.me/minetest4/doku.php?id=mods 18:52 thexyz PilzAdam: it is, but it's not displayed anywhere 18:52 thexyz apart from git history which bots don't download 18:52 thexyz PilzAdam: well, I'm ok with keeping it 18:53 PilzAdam it is in guiMainMenu.cpp 18:54 PilzAdam thexyz, so I can add it back? 18:54 thexyz sure 18:54 Jordach anyways, im going to add nice new shiny screen shots with shaders on 18:54 thexyz celeron55: are we going to keep that wiki-website at your server? 18:54 Jordach (the old 0.4-dev look horrible) 18:55 PilzAdam Jordach, screenshot in the main page is wrong 18:55 Jordach fixing 18:56 Jordach done 18:56 PilzAdam you can remove IRC channels from there 18:56 sapier hmmmm you should add the sky fix in order to fix the invalid emerge thread fix ;-) 18:56 PilzAdam and authors too 18:59 thexyz BlockMen: don't you think it should say "Most Popular" instead of "Recommended"? 19:00 proller https://github.com/proller/common/commit/2dbfdeb4d10ec9964ed2a0713d30b949bc2cdc38 sky ores, springs 19:00 thexyz I also don't get the capitalization there 19:01 thexyz Description? Forum? Mods? 19:01 BlockMen thexyz, sry but my english isnt best... 19:01 IceCraft Kay back 19:01 PilzAdam sapier, *** glibc detected *** /home/adam/Minetest/minetest/bin/minetest: double free or corruption (!prev): 19:01 PilzAdam happens every time I shutdown a server 19:02 thexyz BlockMen: that's fine, mine isn't either 19:02 BlockMen and it should be "Recommended" and not just a list of "Most Popular". I just dont know which to choose, so i took top 10 ;) 19:02 sfan5 will code invoked by minetest.after run in a seperate thread? 19:03 sapier thats exactly what I meant with sky fix ;-) 19:03 thexyz sfan5: all Lua is single-threaded 19:03 * sfan5 had hope for threading 19:04 sapier sfan5 I'm working on it ;-) 19:04 BlockMen PilzAdam, is there a reason you removed #mintest-doc at irc? 19:04 sapier still it's a long way to go 19:04 PilzAdam BlockMen, oops, forgot to add it 19:05 BlockMen i edit already ;) 19:05 sapier pilzadam do rats spawn automaticaly? 19:05 ShadowNinja is the wiki at wiki.minetest.com still used? 19:06 PilzAdam sapier, yes, but use /spawnentity mobs:rat 19:07 thexyz ShadowNinja: apparently 19:08 thexyz though that separation isn't good 19:08 ShadowNinja Can I/how can I edit the navbar? 19:10 BlockMen PilzAdam, could u add a comment? i dont know what this channel is used for... 19:10 ShadowNinja /topic 19:10 proller any objection about ? https://github.com/proller/common/commit/2dbfdeb4d10ec9964ed2a0713d30b949bc2cdc38 19:10 proller when commit i make better message 19:11 ShadowNinja abs height? 19:12 PilzAdam sand into stone? 19:12 PilzAdam and the liquids are way too rare 19:12 PilzAdam I think it should be done in the c++ mapgen and not with register_ore() 19:13 proller sky liquids ok, undergroud maybe rare, but i want to make smooth scarcity change 19:14 ShadowNinja hmmmm has a commit for that, that he won't push... 19:14 celeron55 hmm, i think an "Overview" page is needed for "Community" 19:14 celeron55 i'll add that 19:14 proller sand for sky lands and high mountains, there is no way to get it 19:14 celeron55 (to the navigation) 19:15 proller and all sky changes doesnt affect standatd mapgen 19:16 BlockMen celeron55, https://github.com/celeron55/minetest.net_dokutemplate/pulls 19:16 sapier LOL Pilzadam your rats drop once you reach them in sky 19:19 proller and make underground springs by config, or no? (i think no - nobody will disable it) 19:20 celeron55 ehm... what the hell happened 19:21 celeron55 oh, main.php got wrong permissions by git 8) 19:22 BlockMen celeron55, fixed: &purge=true 19:26 celeron55 BlockMen: oh by the way, are you sure you haven't accidentally left any page with PHP allowed? 19:27 Jordach XSS ftl 19:28 celeron55 more like rm -rf 19:28 Jordach heh 19:28 celeron55 quickly grepping, it looks like it isn't enabled anywhere 19:29 BlockMen celeron55, im 100% sure. 19:30 BlockMen and html is just allowed (by me) for support 19:31 PilzAdam BlockMen, #minetest-doc isnt used by anyone anymore, Ill remove it 19:31 ssieb emptty: I don't have a repo set up, but you can get my current spec file from from http://sieb.net/minetest.spec 19:32 BlockMen PilzAdam, ok 19:33 emptty ssieb: cool, thanks. My debian package is here: https://github.com/mquinson/minetest-debian 19:33 emptty ssieb: can I see your patches, too, pliz? 19:33 ssieb oh, right 19:33 proller PilzAdam, 19:34 proller maybe generate springs only for indev mapgen ? 19:34 celeron55 Jordach: are you sure you didn't go a bit over the top with that "passion" stuff? 8D 19:34 PilzAdam I add rules to IRC in the homepage, what should be added? 19:34 Jordach celeron55, make it easy for the user to read = more users who speak english 19:34 Jordach or other languages 19:34 ssieb emptty: here's the src.rpm then: http://sieb.net/minetest-0.4.6-0.fc18.src.rpm 19:34 celeron55 Jordach: but i mean, the front page now has that word twice 19:35 Jordach uh-oh 19:35 celeron55 also, why aren't there any trees or buildings in the front page screenshots? I'd imagine you could fit both of those in if you are going to have three of them 19:36 emptty ssieb: did you include all games in the same package, or did you do separate packages for each kind of game? 19:36 Jordach celeron55, well, im annoyed that i cant put the screenshots inline 19:36 Jordach unlike pure html 19:36 Jordach celeron55, IF the trees actually worked 19:37 celeron55 i think you can 19:37 Jordach hold on, visiting redcrabs server for buildings 19:37 BlockMen how bout that pic for front page? https://dl.dropbox.com/s/f6yh3brsjdxkww3/bone_02.png 19:38 celeron55 Jordach: just remove the : from the image tag 19:38 celeron55 umm... 19:38 celeron55 actually no; remove the | 19:38 PilzAdam http://c55.me/minetest4/doku.php?id=irc 19:38 PilzAdam anything missing? 19:38 celeron55 also, the styling seems to screw up with images floating on left side and a list on the right side 19:39 ssieb emptty: I have minetest_game and common in it 19:39 celeron55 BlockMen: http://c55.me/random/2013-04/tscrot-2013-04-09_22-38-55.png 19:39 BlockMen PilzAdam, "don't" instead of dont 19:39 * ssieb is not the official packager, this is just for my use :-) 19:39 emptty ubuntu does it too, I don't like this approach 19:40 emptty what is the opinion of you guys, upstream? Will common and minetest_game evolve separately from the main source package ? 19:40 ssieb well, it's new that there are multiple games, so it's definitely something to discuss 19:40 emptty should we do separate packages in the distros, or not ? 19:41 BlockMen celeron55, you mean that there is not enough margin to right? 19:41 Jordach celeron55, got a nice picture from redcrabs server 19:41 emptty I personally am very reluctant to modify the source package, but that may be only me. I'd like to have the advice of the Big Mens of this project to decide 19:41 celeron55 BlockMen: well, i'm not sure about what it's about, but there should be something that would cause some space between the image and the list 19:43 BlockMen ok, i will fix 19:43 ssieb emptty: what do you mean by modify the source package? 19:43 celeron55 emptty: the latest official windows package serves as the reference of the content of the "official minetest distribution" 19:44 celeron55 of course you're free to do differently, but that is what users expect 19:44 emptty ssieb: include several source tarballs in only one source package 19:44 Jordach celeron55, hows the current homepage now 19:45 celeron55 Jordach: if you're going to include an image where there is night, put at least a single torch down because it's useless to have an almost completely black image 19:46 PilzAdam http://c55.me/minetest4/doku.php?id=texturepacks heh 19:46 ssieb emptty: I don't see any problem with that. But you could split up the games into their own packages, so e.g. the survival game could be its own package 19:46 PilzAdam I would change "recommended" to "popular" 19:46 emptty celeron55: why did you guys separate common and the games from the main tree? I'm puzzled about the mention in README that the minetest_game git might get reset 19:46 ssieb emptty: I mean binary packages, the source package would have everything to generate them all 19:47 celeron55 ssieb, emptty: if you are going to split the package, make sure to make a metapackage called "minetest" that will install all of the packages, and call the bare engine + common something like minetest-engine 19:47 celeron55 emptty: common and the games are separated from the engine tree to keep the repositories reasonably sized 19:48 celeron55 common and games contain textures, sounds and 3D models which aren't wanted in the engine repo 19:48 emptty is there any possibility that they get versioned differently? 19:48 emptty like a 0.4.6.1 release of minetest_game while the other remain at 0.4.6 or so 19:48 celeron55 it is intended that they are identically versioned via git tags 19:49 Jordach celeron55, anyways, forest screenie done 19:49 celeron55 it's complicated to keep up with it though now that there are so many of them... 19:49 Jordach celeron55, hows that 19:50 celeron55 i think the city shot should be from daytime 19:50 Jordach okay 19:50 celeron55 the dark trees shot is good 19:50 Jordach (it's actually a town) 19:50 Jordach the day desert one looks really real 19:50 BlockMen celeron55, https://github.com/celeron55/minetest.net_dokutemplate/pull/2 19:51 emptty celeron55: you mean that there will never be a separate release of any of the elements? I'm sorry but I need to know before I go for one or the other way of packaging these elements 19:51 PilzAdam is there a global changelog for the dokuwiki like this one http://dev.minetest.net/Special:RecentChanges ? 19:53 Jordach ShadowNinja, new image incoming 19:53 celeron55 BlockMen: hmm... i don't think that's good; i made a fix myself now that works well 19:53 BlockMen PilzAdam, &do=recent 19:54 BlockMen celeron55, whats wrong about my fix?? 19:55 celeron55 it unnecessarily affected right-aligned images too, and the 1em margin was too low to actually move the list anywhere 19:56 * ShadowNinja watches the main page change over and over 19:57 Jordach celeron55, fixed the village image 19:57 Jordach (rhyming today) 19:57 BlockMen celeron55, and where do you see the change of the right-aligned images?? https://github.com/celeron55/minetest.net_dokutemplate/pull/2/files#L0L53 19:57 celeron55 hmm, there should be a link to ?do=recent somewhere... maybe in the account menu? 19:58 BlockMen should i add? 19:59 celeron55 i think yes; it could be called just "Changelog" in there i guess 19:59 BlockMen ok. and a general question first: how do i update my fork? 20:00 celeron55 there's probably a good answer to that somewhere on github itself :P 20:01 celeron55 this probably answers your question: https://help.github.com/articles/fork-a-repo 20:01 BlockMen already found :D 20:02 Jordach celeron55, for the recommended texture packs, should I spend time taking pics with each TP and make photos? 20:04 celeron55 i really think the first image on the front page should be a daytime screenshot with some houses in a forest 20:05 jojoa1997|Tablet yeah that show the survival side of minetest 20:05 celeron55 Jordach: a screenshot for each sounds excessive; maybe split them into categories and take a screenshot for each? 20:05 celeron55 each category, i mean 20:05 celeron55 oh well, there aren't that many anyway it seems 20:05 jojoa1997|Tablet caleron55 but each texture pack looks different 20:05 proller celeron55, whats about placing server list (maybe top10 by players to bottom of main page ?) 20:05 Jordach celeron55, the texture pack creators have made their own images, why bother doing more work 20:06 celeron55 Jordach: well just use them i guess :P 20:07 Jordach uploading VanessaE's image 20:08 celeron55 just crop the images to similar size 20:08 celeron55 exact same width would be wise at least 20:08 celeron55 and not too much height 20:08 celeron55 oh lol it's awful now 20:08 celeron55 kill it with fire! 20:09 Jordach celeron55, it can be done later 20:09 Jordach content first, refinery later 20:12 Jordach celeron55, fixed 20:15 emptty "later" came quickly, this time :) 20:15 BlockMen celeron55, my shell just throws me errors 20:15 BlockMen what happens if i delete my repro and fork again? 20:15 PilzAdam BlockMen, thats the way RealBadAngel does it all the time 20:16 BlockMen PilzAdam, ok. then i will follow RealBaAngel :D 20:16 Jordach RealBadAngel, is bad at branching out 20:18 Jordach las image 20:18 Jordach last* 20:18 ShadowNinja given infinite resources how many players could connect to a minetest server? 20:19 Jordach ShadowNinja, infinite provided that the server have enough ram 20:19 Jordach although there was a time where a Intel ATOM notebook hosted 100+ people 20:19 PilzAdam ShadowNinja, max_users in minetest.conf 20:20 celeron55 well, i guess some id there is 16-bit, so 65535 or so 20:20 celeron55 something's inevitably going to explode before that though 20:21 ShadowNinja thats what I was asking, u16? 20:21 celeron55 i can't imagine anyone having the amount of single-core CPU power needed for that though 20:21 Jordach celeron55, datacentres 20:21 celeron55 they have thousands of rather lazy cores 20:22 celeron55 not faster than one in a regular desktop 20:22 BlockMen celeron55, https://github.com/celeron55/minetest.net_dokutemplate/pull/3 20:23 ShadowNinja celeron55: why don't you just give him push access :-) 20:23 celeron55 why do you include an ID in there, it works like this too http://c55.me/minetest4/doku.php?do=recent 20:24 celeron55 ShadowNinja: because once i pull, all code will go to production immediately 20:24 BlockMen because umm... 20:24 BlockMen idk :D 20:25 BlockMen celeron55, changed 20:27 celeron55 now you could try learning a skill called "squashing" 20:27 celeron55 nobody will merge a pull request that has separate commits for fixing stuff that it introduces as broken 8) 20:27 ShadowNinja celeron55: should a link to dev.minetest.net be added? 20:27 ShadowNinja git rebase -i 20:27 Jordach ShadowNinja, that's wise 20:28 PilzAdam BlockMen, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/605#issuecomment-15998442 20:28 celeron55 hmm, quite long https://help.github.com/articles/interactive-rebase 20:29 celeron55 PilzAdam: be careful 20:30 celeron55 there are three commits squashed in the example and nobody is telling BlockMen he needs to squash two 20:30 celeron55 everything will explode when he squashes three 8) 20:30 BlockMen PilzAdam, celeron55 thx 20:31 BlockMen celeron55, http://i.imgur.com/Q9l0UBD.png 20:31 BlockMen it works for me with 2em 20:36 Jordach celeron55, i added a basic community page 20:36 ShadowNinja BlockMen: that was fixed, refresh 20:37 proller https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/02b6a1db212284412c036b2c674f6e4c3de59b7d - for fun - mapgen for math-generated worlds - first is simple sphere, next i want to make mandelbox 20:39 ShadowNinja celeron55: all packs under Texture Packs does not start with a capital A 20:40 Jordach ShadowNinja, im not seeing that 20:41 BlockMen ShadowNinja, noticed. strange thing is, i had to refresh 10 times, and i was always forcing 20:41 Exio proller: how does it work? 20:41 proller Exio, makes simple sphere with r=30000 20:42 Exio oh, it is not something like definition a function what returns the values in some math-like language? :P 20:44 proller c++ langauge 20:45 Exio hehe 20:48 ShadowNinja Jordach: http://ompldr.org/iaTFsNQ 20:48 ShadowNinja or better: http://ompldr.org/vaTFsNQ/Menu_019.png 20:49 ShadowNinja ugh, why so many links? 21:05 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/637 fix for pilzadams flyaway rats 21:06 sapier I wonder why this only results in errors with small collisionboxes 21:56 Taoki PilzAdam: When can we expect sheep and rats to be included in Minetest with your simple mob framework? Can't wait to see that as part of minetest_game and Minetest builtin :) 21:59 sapier I'm against this ... simplemobs is by far not best mob implementation 21:59 sapier mine isn't perfect either but far more advanced than simplemobs 22:02 Taoki I'm ok with any as long as there will be default mobs :) 22:02 PilzAdam sapier, but simple mobs is lightweight enough to actually run on most peoples computers 22:02 Taoki Simple might be more safe for Minetest at least for starters though 22:03 ShadowNinja sapier: does mobf use pathfinding now? 22:03 Taoki Pathfinding? *perks ears* 22:03 ShadowNinja yep, it got pushed 22:03 sapier simplemobs is by no means lightweight if you add half of features mobf has you'll require way more cpu power 22:03 Taoki Was actually thinking of giving a try to pathfinding myself if no one else does. Since everything's made out of blocks t would be possible 22:03 hmmmm hmm 22:03 hmmmm sapier, what's the actual bottleneck with mobs 22:04 sapier there's no actual benefit of pathfinding for about 95% of movement 22:04 Taoki hmmmm - The only user who types his own nickname when he's thinking :) 22:04 sapier current bottleneck is still spawning 22:04 sapier and agression 22:04 hmmmm how is spawning a bottleneck? 22:04 Taoki sapier: Why would spawning be CPU costly? I was thinking movement would be hardest 22:05 sapier no movement is simple 22:05 PilzAdam sapier, yes, its lightweight because it doesnt have so many features 22:05 sapier yes so your rat ignores water running submerged same as on ground ... 22:05 sapier mobf 0.xx did same 22:05 Taoki Only features I imagine are needed are mobs roaming around idly, then attacking the player (if hostile ones) when he's within their view radius 22:06 sapier spawning requires to check presence of other mobs as well as terrain thats costly 22:06 sapier and agression is costly as you need to check what other objects are around 22:06 sapier if you do this often you generate lots of cpu load if you do it to rare an agressive mob will attack with huge delay 22:06 sapier both nit quite conveniant 22:07 PilzAdam Taoki, simple mobs does exactly this 22:07 hmmmm terrain checking? 22:07 Taoki I recently wrote a moonflower mod (it's a plant) which spawns via mapgen with on_genrate. I used a very simply formula there 22:07 Taoki PilzAdam: Awesome 22:08 hmmmm first of all, you have control over all the other mobs, you're telling me that iterating through them and checking the distance from other mobs is cpu consuming? 22:08 sapier mobf does only generate on mapgen since 2.0 ... simplemobs has 1/4th of mobs mobf has this is a big difference 22:08 hmmmm maybe the spawn attempt rate should be lower 22:09 hmmmm as for terrain checking... how do you perform that? 22:09 Taoki Anyway, my formula (which I recommend is): For each chunk, have a given amount of probability attempts and possibilities for each. When a probability is triggered (via a math.random() happening), choose a random point within the chunk o the X and Z axes. Then at that spot, find the top on the Y axis and spawn there 22:09 sapier the on mapgen method did reduce porblems to almost zero 22:09 PilzAdam spawning is the most difficult part of mobs 22:09 sapier still agression is a unsolved issue 22:09 PilzAdam simple mobs abms are not the best solution 22:09 Taoki So the steps are: For each cunk, trigger random probabilities. When they take place, find random X and Z location in that chunk. Then find the top by going up on Y at those coords. Then spawn there if appropriate 22:09 PilzAdam and Id like to make the mobs not static, so they get deleted when the block unloads 22:09 sapier taoki I've already done this 22:09 Taoki If you can't spawn there the attempt is failed 22:09 Taoki ok 22:10 Taoki sapier: Surely shouldn't be CPU intensive in the slightest. Even a hand watch should be able to run such a code easily :P 22:11 sapier if you happen to catch one of minetests performance eaters ... e.g. getnode you'll have no chance at all 22:11 Taoki PilzAdam: Is spawning still difficult a formula like my idea? 22:11 sapier an I've already told, mapgen spawning fixed the spawning problem ... but introduced a new one 22:11 hmmmm is there not a get_ground_level() function already? 22:11 PilzAdam Taoki, simple mobs dont spawn on generate 22:11 Taoki sapier: With such an implementation, you'd only use getnode a few times every few seconds 22:11 PilzAdam hmmmm, no 22:11 hmmmm oh... 22:12 hmmmm well maybe there should be 22:12 Taoki PilzAdam: Oh, that's correct... thay shouldn't. Still the same idea can be used ona per-chunk basis 22:12 Taoki Only horrible thing to do would be using register_abm on dirt nodes for this 22:12 sapier taoki you don't have chunks if anythin is loaded 22:12 * Taoki nods, makes sense 22:12 sapier chunks are only a valid element on loading 22:12 PilzAdam Taoki, but I have to register an abm on dirt nodes 22:13 sapier as sheep won't spawn on stone or sand ;-P 22:13 PilzAdam the dirt monster spawns on dirt 22:13 hmmmm now tell me about the aggression part 22:13 Taoki PilzAdam: It hurts to think how many functionc alls must be executed every X seconds for millions of dirt nodes loaded in view at once :P 22:13 sapier ok atm agression needs to know any entity in a certain distance 22:14 sapier and loop through this list in certain intervals ... e.g. every 1 5 10 seconds ... much more doesn't make sense 22:14 Taoki PilzAdam: I'd suggest one of two things instead. 1 - Use a random position in the entire active area (part of the world that's loaded by the server), in case that's possible. 2 - If not, use player position and spawn mobs in a given radius from players. Shouldn't make a difference since if the player is away who cares if mobs spawn 22:14 Taoki sapier: I suggested an idea for aggression once; Alert levels 22:15 Taoki Not sure if I still have the thread... 22:15 sapier alert levels do increas problem even more 22:15 Taoki They would be a bit hard to implement, but prolly not performance intensive 22:15 sapier as you need to update alert levels even for non agressive mobs this will result in permanent calculation for each mob 22:16 PilzAdam Taoki, ehm... do you know the current API? 22:16 PilzAdam (of Minetest) 22:16 Taoki PilzAdam: Learning it during the last days 22:16 sapier taoki loops are always performance critical 22:16 Taoki Mostly yes for onw. Less for the lua entities part 22:16 PilzAdam Taoki, what you says lets me think that you have no idea about it 22:16 Taoki PilzAdam: How come? Where am I wrong? 22:16 sapier "days"? either you are a genius or just haven't understood complexity ;-) 22:17 PilzAdam PilzAdam: I'd suggest one of two things instead. 1 - Use a random position in the entire active area (part of the world that's loaded by the server), in case that's possible. 2 - If not, use player position and spawn mobs in a given radius from players. Shouldn't make a difference since if the player is away who cares if mobs spawn 22:17 PilzAdam an ABM is exactly the latter one 22:17 Taoki Oh, yeah. I doubt you can get a location globally in loaded chunks. Player position is possible to get in a global on_step however 22:17 Taoki ok 22:18 sapier hmmm I don't really see an option how to get attention mechanism faster ... maybe this isn't a problem with luajit anymore, but as I told, new performance evaluations will be done prior mobf 2.1 release (scheduled for end of april) 22:18 Taoki PilzAdam: Still, how can the server even survive when you run ABM on EACH dirb block? :P I mean you can have almost million(s) of them loaded at once on the server in some circumstances I can imagine. At least thousands 22:19 sapier it survives because pilzadam uses very very very low chances and huge deltas 22:19 PilzAdam I check for neighbor = "air" and have a really low chance to run it 22:20 sapier wich is the only way to go ... did you solve the everything cought/killed problem pilzadam? 22:20 PilzAdam what problem? 22:20 sapier with low chances and rates worlds tend to become empty if players kill mobs 22:21 PilzAdam dunno, I use the engines damage/kill system 22:22 sapier me to ... but thats not what I meant ... spawning at low rates doesn't seam to refill map at a decent rate 22:22 PilzAdam bts, sapier, do you suppor the only_peaceful_mobs setting that is mentioned in minetest.conf.example? 22:22 Taoki Oh. Checking for neighbors air is a great idea 22:22 Taoki Should have used that for my Moonflower 22:22 PilzAdam Taoki, it makes only sense in ABMs 22:22 Taoki sapier: Huge deltas tho? What do you mean? 22:22 sapier no wouldn't make sense as I do have at least 3 classes of mobs 22:23 sapier completely peacefull, hostile and self defending 22:23 PilzAdam Taoki, if you are interested, run simple mobs with display_mob_spawn = true in minetest.conf 22:23 sapier but mobf has a configuration menu where you can disable each mob 22:23 Taoki What would be wrong with using player position in on_step however? Any player's position, frequency multiplied by the number of players or something 22:24 Taoki PilzAdam: Ok. Need to try the mod out soon yes 22:24 sapier or try old mobf version on oldcoders server 22:24 PilzAdam also, the engine passes the object count in the mapblock to the ABM function, I limit the mob spawn by this 22:25 sapier object count in abm? interesting ... didn't know this 22:25 Taoki Also, here's another idea which would also be nice gameplay-wise: Trigger mobs in register_abm very rarely, but have mobs which are spawned create mobs of the same type around themselves within a certain radius. So a mob of one type will cause more mobs of the same type 22:25 Taoki Could be much less intensive also 22:25 PilzAdam this isnt good at all, but it works in singleplayer 22:26 PilzAdam Taoki, hmm, maybe that could work 22:26 PilzAdam but if you clear an area, then the mobs will only very slowly come back 22:26 Taoki Yeah. Could be minked to my idea of mobs that cry for help when fighting (and possibly low on health) causing more mobs to spawn nearby 22:26 PilzAdam but I want something like the mob spawn of Minecraft 22:26 sapier my current mechanism adds invisible spawners on mapgen wich produce mobs 22:26 Taoki true too 22:27 Taoki **linked 22:27 Taoki sapier: Problematic if you build in that area and cover or uncover a spawner in the wrong place 22:27 PilzAdam sapier, I thought about that too, but Im too lazy to code it 22:28 sapier lol no it's not a problem taoki as spawner can detect this and relocate to a better position 22:28 Taoki Hmmm. Might work then 22:28 Taoki Yes... actually I do have an idea. When dirt nodes are created, give them a meta: field for mob spawning 22:28 sapier hehe pilzadam ... thats what I meant with mobf is far more advanced ... I had to put a lot of work in those small glitches ... they seam to be minor but solution is quite tricky 22:29 sapier a node doesn't have an active component ... otherwise it wouldn't be a node 22:30 Taoki Anyway I might go inactive on IRC for now 22:30 Taoki Yeah, true 22:30 sapier pilzadam I like the mouse model of simplemobs ;-) 22:30 PilzAdam its a rat 22:31 hmmmm how does the mob spawning of minecraft work? 22:31 sapier noo its a mouse :) 22:31 hmmmm and how would you even know that 22:31 PilzAdam hmmmm, they maybe use on_load_chunk() and check vertical position and time 22:31 hmmmm so in other words no idea :) 22:31 PilzAdam but I know how it feels 22:32 hmmmm anyway i'll try to help out by making an env:ground_level_at_point() function 22:32 PilzAdam on_load_chunk() would be extremly helpful if I delete mobs when the chunk gets unloaded 22:32 hmmmm perhaps 22:33 hmmmm and you mean on_load_block() 22:33 sapier why do you delete mobs on unload? 22:33 PilzAdam well, in MT block, in MC chunk 22:33 PilzAdam sapier, I will do it when the patch gets in 22:33 sapier not if but WHY? 22:34 PilzAdam I dont like static mobs 22:34 PilzAdam the player shouldnt be able to farm them 22:34 hmmmm well i think being precise with naming here is important, because map is generated in chunks, and 5*5*5 blocks load all at once 22:34 sapier I see so completely different aproach to what mobf tries to do 22:35 PilzAdam hmmmm, I mean the 16x16x16 blocks 22:35 hmmmm just keep that in mind 22:35 hmmmm we'd have to call your function 125 times every time a chunk is generated 22:35 sapier whooo :-) sonds costly 22:35 hmmmm okay 22:36 hmmmm i'm going to be honest 22:36 hmmmm this is not for lua 22:36 PilzAdam hmmmm, we need to call it everytime a player walks near to it 22:36 hmmmm *sigh* 22:36 hmmmm so i guess we go through this again? i add a register_mob() function? 22:36 BlockMen gd n8t everyone 22:36 sapier what would this register function help? 22:37 hmmmm spawning 22:37 sapier and how to decide where to spawn? if you call a lua callback to tell all the slow parts will still be done in lua 22:37 PilzAdam we need 2 types, one for static mobs and one for not static mobs 22:37 hmmmm i guess i would pick a method and stick with it 22:38 sapier imho you're solving the wrong problem atm 22:38 PilzAdam it is the biggest problem for simple mobs currently 22:38 sapier your problem is getting a suitable position? 22:38 PilzAdam the problem is to find a good spawning system 22:39 hmmmm i thought the problem was making new mobs evvvvery time a new block is loaded 22:39 hmmmm which i personally don't agree with, i think it should be done once after map generation, and then mobs are added every so often afterwards pseudorandomly 22:39 PilzAdam hmmmm, thats a solution, not a problem 22:39 sapier why do you wanna waste cpu performance on every block load instead of only once? 22:39 hmmmm that's not a solution, just consider the sheer volume of callbacks 22:40 hmmmm it's a solution to you because you don't like static mobs for some reason 22:41 PilzAdam it would be also possible to add a "ghost" entity when a mob dies that regenerates nearby after some random time 22:41 sapier I think about a parametrizable spawn mechanism in core but my investigations aren't quite finished ... it's difficult to get this done in a way general enough without having to call back to lua everytime 22:42 hmmmm hah 22:42 hmmmm what if mobs were placed with decorationdef 22:42 sapier this won't fix the to many objects problem where core just deletes entities 22:43 sapier I was talking about ghosts 22:43 PilzAdam hmmmm, could work 22:43 PilzAdam we would have static mobs then 22:43 PilzAdam I dont like it but it isnt the worst thing one can do 22:43 sapier what do you mean with decorationdef? 22:44 hmmmm it's just a generic way to randomly place objects on the map after map generation 22:44 hmmmm by objects, i originally figured it would be discrete node structures like trees and rocks 22:45 sapier does it call a lua fct for random positions? 22:45 hmmmm it comes up with the position on its own 22:46 hmmmm it has a lua callback if it wants one though 22:46 PilzAdam sapier, your object collision fix works, hmmmm, can I merge it? 22:46 sapier if you did try it yes ... it worked for me 22:46 hmmmm basically i'm thinking like, you register it almost like you do an ore, but a couple other differences, and you specify which biomes have what decorations 22:46 hmmmm pilzadam, yes 22:46 PilzAdam yes, I tested it 22:47 hmmmm and one of the fields i'd have is a lua callback 22:47 hmmmm so this way you can place cacti in deserts according to perlin noise but not have any lua callback 22:47 sapier sounds good 22:47 hmmmm but for something like mobs now 22:47 hmmmm hmm 22:47 hmmmm i guess place CONTENT_IGNORE, which means nothing, but do a callback to lua for that random position 22:48 sapier at least a lua function has to be called for any "possible position" to decide if a specific mob really fits there 22:48 hmmmm (this random position is really just random x and z, but ground level y, by the way) 22:48 PilzAdam hmmmm, the engine writes to errorstream if you place content_ignore 22:48 hmmmm well obviously 22:48 hmmmm that could be a placeholder though for "don't place anything at this position, just call a lua callback for it" 22:49 sapier onground isn't good enough for all mobs 22:49 hmmmm well for those mobs, you could do something different i suppose 22:49 sapier birds, fish, lavamonsters ;-) 22:49 PilzAdam hmmmm, then just pass nil as param 22:49 sapier later one haven't been done by now :-) 22:51 hmmmm pilzadam, you misunderstand me.. i just blurted out a minor implementation detail 22:51 hmmmm you'll see how it'll work when i get time to work on it 22:51 sapier I don't like the idea of adding another solution only solving half of the problems ... if I need to do everything else with same way as before the problem isn't solved 22:51 PilzAdam I know 22:51 PilzAdam I just wanted to be sure that you dont do something stupid in the details 22:51 hmmmm do i ever? 22:51 hmmmm why would you even ask that 22:52 sapier btw hmmmm are you currently working on mapgen v6? 22:52 hmmmm nope, proller is working on that 22:53 sapier after running valgrind on current master I feel mapgen got even more memory leaks than before 22:53 hmmmm if you're referring to the noiseparams thing, i'll get all of those at once 22:53 PilzAdam sapier, after all your memory leak fixes minetest crashes every shutdown with a double free error 22:53 sapier speaking of memory leaks I rebased the sky patch to current master and added the fix for current minetest crash in there too 22:53 PilzAdam and it also crashes if a mod fails to load 22:54 sapier as I have said 3 times now this fix is included within sky patch 22:55 sapier pilzadam same problem with mod load errors 22:55 hmmmm sapier, i'll take care of all mapgen related memory leaks.. just not right now 22:55 hmmmm it's not exactly critical either 22:55 hmmmm you guys are all in such a hurry for some reason 22:55 sapier no it isn't but should be done prior releasing 0.4.7 imho 22:56 hmmmm we *just* released 0.4.6 22:56 hmmmm that won't happen for a while 22:56 sapier I just guess it won't be done at all if not someone puts his finger in this wound ;-) 22:57 sapier but at least the big texture leaks are fixed now, once everything is correctly added this will be way better than before 22:57 proller 22:58 PilzAdam sapier, will test your line_of_sight() fix tomorow, gtg now 22:58 PilzAdam bye 22:58 sapier me too it's 1 am 22:59 sapier good night .. afternoon morning ... wherever you are :-) 22:59 hmmmm well sapier 22:59 hmmmm hold up 22:59 sapier yes? 22:59 hmmmm just want to make sure, all of the mapgen-related memory leaks are related to noiseparams, right? 22:59 VanessaE meh, scrollback tl;dr. 22:59 hmmmm there's nothing else that i'm not aware of 23:00 sapier not quite but I'll post a report once all of my fixes are in to show whats leftover 23:00 sapier I think I've seen one or two new ones today but I'm not sure I didn't especially look for those 23:02 sapier but the sky fix is important, it's anoying to crash minetest on each logout :-( sorry for that 23:04 sapier reason for including it in sky is its a one line fix I didn't want to create an additional pull request for 1 line ;-) 23:04 sapier so gtg now good night 23:10 RealBadAngel shit, found bug in my code 23:27 VanessaE bbl