Time Nick Message 00:00 RealBadAngel i need to test the change first, i may have an idea how to do that 00:00 RealBadAngel i will play with it on weekend 00:01 Taoki ok 00:01 RealBadAngel hi VanessaE 00:01 hmmmm yeah, it looks good 00:02 PilzAdam https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/c5a8448c41e4ea9d33a43cebef61425d4568a46d 00:03 PilzAdam this works with nil -> not override current setting 00:03 Taoki Awesome. Looks good 00:03 hmmmm so you're handling that? 00:03 hmmmm thank you 00:05 hmmmm by the way pilzadam, when you commit something that has a pull request, be sure to paste the link to the commit and say something like "done" in a comment then close it 00:05 PilzAdam random idea: Lua side sprinting :-) 00:05 hmmmm uh no. 00:05 hmmmm horrible idea 00:05 PilzAdam :D 00:05 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, have you read what i wrote bout creative tools? 00:05 VanessaE hey RB. 00:05 VanessaE A. 00:05 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, what exactly do you want? 00:05 hmmmm as for the "add support to latest C++ standard" pull request, i dunno, there are lots of compilers that don't support this 00:06 RealBadAngel imho you shall leave tools intact regardless the game mode 00:06 hmmmm i don't forsee us using any of those funky language features he was giving examples of 00:06 hmmmm it's a general rule (in minetest anyway) to make your code really stupid and simple 00:06 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, what you suggest is that the hand digging time shouldnt be used if the tool doesnt define it 00:06 Taoki PilzAdam: My change would allow that too :) 00:06 hmmmm and don't use any super-duper high level C++ constructs 00:06 Taoki The sprinting I mean 00:07 Taoki Anyway, need to go to bed since it's late. Waiting for the code to be ready and merged to be sure it's all ok 00:07 PilzAdam Ill add that to MiniTest :-) 00:07 Exio hmmmm: please, i need my object-matching-pattern-wtfisthatshit super-OOP things for live!!!!!!!111! 00:07 Exio hi btw :P 00:07 hmmmm and jesus christ.. C++11 allows you to overload quotation marks? 00:07 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, havent checked the code, just noticed fact that diamond swords digs concrete blocks faster than pickaxe 00:07 hmmmm okay it's beyond saving 00:08 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, the hand digs stone faster than a pickaxe, so does any tool that doesnt define the cracky group 00:08 hmmmm thanks to this guy's pull request, i know to specifically disallow C++11 00:08 Taoki MiniTest? 00:08 PilzAdam Ill push that now 00:08 Taoki ok 00:09 PilzAdam Taoki, yes, a game by me that copys MC 00:09 Exio hmmmm: lol 00:09 Taoki Fun fun 00:09 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, that should be somehow fixed then 00:09 PilzAdam the creative mode isnt meant to use tools 00:10 Exio what about the cosmetic fix for infinite tools? 00:10 Exio the stacks are already infinite, i don't see the "why not" of that 00:10 PilzAdam anything else that requires a protocol version bump? 00:10 Exio as it is just cosmetic 00:10 RealBadAngel folks sometimes want to play legacy on creative servers 00:10 RealBadAngel go on VanessaE server and see 00:11 Taoki PilzAdam: Thanks PilzAdam. Tomorrow I'll fix the ladder speed too since that's something else a lot of people complained about 00:11 Taoki Night 00:12 RealBadAngel night Taoki 00:12 PilzAdam hmmmm, I have this MC like sand falling (with a little delay when updating) and VanessaE said it is awesome 00:13 PilzAdam it doesnt add thousands of entities at once when digging a huge amount of flying sand 00:13 PilzAdam and it looks pretty nice 00:13 PilzAdam https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/ea9fd59f2bce8d8a31f7bd4a952564faa0629441 00:13 VanessaE works on gravel too 00:13 VanessaE other falling nodes also, I'm sure. 00:14 hmmmm PilzAdam, sure, doesn't really matter to me though 00:14 hmmmm if you (actual minetest players) like it, then I guess add it 00:15 hmmmm just make sure others agree with it 00:15 hmmmm those are gameplay tweaks I can't really comment at all on 00:15 Exio https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/commit/30d029814ef5f0680510146d0e4b72bccd1bae50 00:15 Exio i would like to see this 00:16 PilzAdam hmmmm, it acutally isnt a gameplay tweak 00:16 PilzAdam Exio, it turned out that you cant apply more than one shader to a material IIRC 00:16 Exio ehm 00:17 PilzAdam http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-04-04#i_2984467 00:19 Exio oh 00:20 Exio as doing the stuff, what do you think about https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/578 ? (it will make the "look" of the IRC-mod and others similar mods "better" 00:21 PilzAdam seems ok to me 00:22 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/596#issuecomment-15932423 00:23 Exio upgrade your compiler hmmmm 00:24 Exio the last gcc is super cooler(tm) 00:24 hmmmm in order for me to allow merging something, it'd have to *work* for me in the first place 00:24 hmmmm and I know it'd cause problems for other freebsd users 00:25 hmmmm freebsd is a tier-1 supported platform for minetest 00:25 PilzAdam pushed the mc like sand falling 00:25 hmmmm meaning it _has_ to work on there, or else there's a problem 00:26 PilzAdam hmmmm, I fixed the nick completion fix to not copy the list all the time: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/f245c6dc18e2b84d480209b64fec1fdfa8262a92 00:26 hmmmm i saw that 00:26 jordan4ibanez delay in node_update, won't that cause a lot of problems? 00:26 PilzAdam (yes, I fix fixes :-)) 00:26 hmmmm why not push it? 00:26 jordan4ibanez why not a slow_node_update instead?? 00:27 VanessaE PilzAdam: how short of a delay can you use and still have it work? 00:27 PilzAdam hmmmm, If you are ok with it now Ill push it 00:27 VanessaE (for the falling code) 00:27 hmmmm hmm 00:27 PilzAdam well, It had a delay of 0 and it worked, so this question isnt very good 00:28 VanessaE I ask because I'm concerned about those 0.1s delays adding up and causing lag is all. 00:28 PilzAdam I wouldnt call it "lag" 00:28 hmmmm it creates a nodetimer for each falling node, doesn't it 00:28 hmmmm that has potential to be bad if there's a large amount of nodes that start falling at once 00:28 PilzAdam hmmmm, no, it just queues them in globalstep 00:28 hmmmm ah 00:29 jordan4ibanez That's cool! 00:29 PilzAdam Ill push the nick completion now 00:29 hmmmm oh shoot 00:29 VanessaE PilzAdam: re: nick completion, does that work in the 't' command line yet? 00:29 hmmmm there was something about that i wanted to make sure of before you push it 00:29 PilzAdam VanessaE, nope 00:29 VanessaE damn. 00:29 hmmmm you changed something from a wstring to a string 00:29 VanessaE that would be incredibly handy to have. 00:29 hmmmm are you sure that's correct? 00:30 PilzAdam player names are send to the client as std::string 00:31 PilzAdam so I keep it in the env as a string and change it to wsring when passing it to Irrlicht 00:31 hmmmm ah, it's irrlicht that expects the wstring 00:32 PilzAdam also, hmmmm, what do you think about the "Server -!-" prefix for chat_send_player()? 00:33 hmmmm i don't know 00:33 hmmmm that prefix was put there for a reason 00:33 Exio or at least making it less annoying for short messages or relays 00:33 hmmmm it's good to know what messages are coming from the server though 00:34 hmmmm maybe server messages could be drawn with a slightly different colored font 00:34 Exio -S- from the server? or something what is shorter than the word + signs 00:34 PilzAdam as a modder, I think its very annoying 00:34 PilzAdam Exio, nobody would understand that :-= 00:34 PilzAdam *:-) 00:34 hmmmm is that possible, though, the way the font works with irrlicht? 00:34 hmmmm if it is, i'd remove the prefix and change the coloring 00:34 PilzAdam wtf 00:35 PilzAdam github has a new GUI for pull requests 00:35 hmmmm yeah i saw 00:35 hmmmm it's what websites do 00:35 hmmmm they change things for the sake of changing things, not like it's being made better at all 00:35 VanessaE font? push my bigger, sharper one ;) 00:35 hmmmm vanessae, not until the culling issues are fixed 00:35 PilzAdam VanessaE, we have TTF now 00:35 hmmmm also that 00:35 PilzAdam just install your own if you like to 00:36 VanessaE ttf sucks 00:36 VanessaE no shadowing. 00:36 VanessaE hmmmm: culling issues? you mean kerning right? 00:36 PilzAdam you even have a font_size setting for ttf fonts ((c) PilzAdam) 00:36 hmmmm kerning yeah 00:36 VanessaE hmmmm: right. I agree on that point. Forgot about that issue actually. 00:36 hmmmm but i agree, the main purpose of the font change is to add that border for readaibility 00:37 hmmmm so increasing the font size of what's already there won't really help 00:37 hmmmm can we have a shadow? 00:37 hmmmm what if we write the same string twice, one in black, offset by 1+1 pixel? 00:37 hmmmm i'd actually rather not do that, i'm just throwing stupid ideas out there 00:38 VanessaE hmmmm: you'd need to actually outline the whole font 00:38 VanessaE a 1x1 offset only shadows part of it, wouldn't work in practive 00:38 VanessaE practice* . I tried already. 00:39 PilzAdam oh fuck, its too late again :-( 00:42 VanessaE ? 00:42 VanessaE oh 00:42 VanessaE bye 00:42 PilzAdam how about that one? https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/2126bf06d20f6cb5bb6a0dbe728923b228d5c5cb 00:42 VanessaE (kidding) 00:42 VanessaE mm 00:42 VanessaE you need to widen the list box for that 00:43 VanessaE well, maybe not actually. 00:44 VanessaE in my particular use case, doing that would cause about half the entries in my worlds list to run out past the right margin 00:44 PilzAdam even minimal with the long name fits into it 00:44 PilzAdam and it is hardly at the half 00:44 VanessaE probably not a real concern then 00:44 PilzAdam (with the worldname being "minimal") 00:46 PilzAdam well, its a bit more critical in the advanced tab 00:47 PilzAdam but using the foldername instead of the actual gamename is stupid IMO 00:48 PilzAdam hmmmm, what do you think? 00:59 hmmmm i think we shouldn't take up unnecessary space 01:00 hmmmm i just hope it isn't too wide 01:33 hmmmm hah wow 01:33 hmmmm https://github.com/Bukkit/mc-dev/blob/master/net/minecraft/server/BiomeBase.java 01:33 hmmmm coincidentially, i limited the number of biomes to 256 too 01:33 Exio i will not open *that* file 01:34 hmmmm except the first one is occupied by a "default" biome that exists no matter what 01:34 VanessaE I can't see us needing more than a dozen biomes anyway 01:34 hmmmm and it seems that they have something that's similar to DecorationDef, and they call it BiomeDecorator 01:34 hmmmm i want to check that out, i want to know if it really is what i think it is, and if they do the placement like i do too 01:35 hmmmm nevertheless, i'm going to try to rip their biome temperature/humidity settings so we have something that doesn't need balancing 01:36 hmmmm it might be tougher than that, because i don't do the max/min like they do 01:38 hmmmm also i think the mushroom island idea is stupid and i'll omit that biome altogether 01:38 hmmmm https://github.com/Bukkit/mc-dev/blob/master/net/minecraft/server/BiomeHell.java gotta really love Java with their one-class-per-file restriction 01:39 Exio oh god, stop posting links what finish with .java 01:39 hmmmm you'll live 01:39 Exio if i open those links i'm sure i'll start bleeding 01:48 hmmmm sand, gravel, ore, flowers, mushrooms, huge mushrooms, reed, cactus, waterlilly 01:49 hmmmm they handle trees separately for some reason, it seems 01:50 VanessaE oh G*d no, not those huge mushrooms 01:50 VanessaE what idiot thought those made even a lick of sense? 01:51 VanessaE oh wait, Notch did. ;) 01:51 Exio the only thing what i miss of MT actually is the nether (as the only think i do in MC actually, is playing in the nether) 01:51 hmmmm or probably one of the designers he employed 01:52 Exio i don't like them for the mushrooms, but mobs can't spawn in those biomes 01:52 ShadowNinja I like how descriptive calling a() is 01:52 Exio (on those?) 01:52 hmmmm it's not hard to do that 01:52 Exio hmmmm: yep, just saying "what i see is good for those biomes" :P 01:53 ShadowNinja you can use multiple characters for variables! 01:53 hmmmm when it comes time for mobs, we'll just leave some biomes without them 01:53 hmmmm shadowninja, that's not really the source, that's just decompiled 01:53 Exio the code of bukkit is "de-ofuscated" code 01:53 Exio er, that 01:54 Exio the *real* code is not available for public 01:54 ShadowNinja hmm, ok fine 01:56 hmmmm the way they do beaches is kind of smart 01:56 hmmmm https://github.com/Bukkit/mc-dev/blob/master/net/minecraft/server/WorldGenSand.java 01:57 hmmmm pick a random radius, at least 2, replace all the blocks around that are water to be sand 01:57 hmmmm doesn't require any perlin noise that way 01:59 hmmmm and the way they do nether is different from what i expected, and i'd have to say more difficult.. i'm pretty sure negative 3d perlin noise space would've worked just as well 02:03 hmmmm oh, ahh, those pieces are for the nether fortress, not the nether itself 02:03 hmmmm that's an interesting approach to procedurally generating large structures, but i'd have to say ultimately boring. L-systems beat this 04:12 VanessaE hrm. the "build" and "survival" games are not included in the 'make install' step? 04:37 kaeza aren't they installed separately just as minetest_game? 04:38 VanessaE well they can be, but minetest_game is covered when you `make install` 04:41 VanessaE I kinda figured the other two would be also. 04:49 kaeza then that is inconsistent at least 04:49 VanessaE yes. 04:50 VanessaE I'd like my builds to include those two games, but it's not possible without help from one of the upstream devs. I don't understand shit when it comes to makefiles :) 04:57 kaeza1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/600 04:58 VanessaE \o/ 04:58 kaeza hope that helps 04:59 kaeza ;) 04:59 VanessaE cherry-picked. 04:59 kaeza fux 04:59 kaeza forget about that 04:59 VanessaE let's see what THIS breaks 04:59 VanessaE shit. 04:59 VanessaE ok 04:59 kaeza I meant to edit my repo, and edited minetest master instead 05:00 kaeza sorry about that 05:00 VanessaE reverted. 05:00 VanessaE eh? it looks to me like it's on your repo? 05:03 kaeza ah sorry lol I meant the pull request 05:03 kaeza https://github.com/kaeza/minetest/commit/2de3956cb0787231d87e79cff0178d60af8ac764 05:04 kaeza can you test that? 05:04 VanessaE sure, sec 05:05 kaeza I forgot to change line 153 to .../survival in the previous one 05:05 VanessaE ah 05:05 VanessaE running it through my regular build script, let's see what this breaks ;) 05:05 * kaeza crosses fingers 05:07 VanessaE hrm, something didn't work. 05:07 VanessaE lemme check my script. 05:09 kaeza what's the error? 05:09 VanessaE my script didn't install minetest_game et.al before cmake was executed. 05:09 kaeza ah 05:09 VanessaE re-running it now with that change. 05:10 kaeza I'll need to rework that change to use a foreach loop 05:10 kaeza may be useful in case someone decides to add new "standard" games in the future 05:10 VanessaE eh, leave it unrolled 05:11 VanessaE make install coming up in seconds... *crosses fingers* 05:11 VanessaE \o/ 05:11 kaeza success? 05:11 VanessaE I see all four components in the make install spew 05:11 kaeza \o/ 05:11 kaeza make pull request? 05:11 VanessaE hold, let me verify it 05:14 VanessaE I think it's good 05:14 VanessaE uploading the build to my web space now. 05:14 kaeza ok 05:14 VanessaE http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=81578#p81578 05:15 VanessaE can you double-check the output? 05:15 kaeza sure 05:22 VanessaE *waits* 05:23 kaeza still building... 05:23 kaeza I usually compile with RUN_IN_PLACE 05:23 VanessaE ok 05:28 kaeza success! 05:29 VanessaE \o/ 05:29 VanessaE pull-request that sucker. :) 05:40 kaeza I need some help with this 05:41 VanessaE I always do that from the website 05:41 kaeza I accidentally pushed to my master branch, but I already have a pull rq for it 05:41 VanessaE that's ok, it'll get refreshed to the new code. 05:41 kaeza no I mean, the pull is for another unrelated thing 05:41 VanessaE oh 05:42 VanessaE then you'll have to push the change to a different branch and pull-request that against upstream master 05:42 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/593 05:42 kaeza I did that, but now all the changes (including the commit in the open pull) are in it 05:42 VanessaE there it is. 05:43 VanessaE in that case you have to revert your commit and push -f 05:43 kaeza you know what? I'll nuke and reclone 05:43 VanessaE or just clo....... 05:43 VanessaE or do that. 05:43 VanessaE :D 05:43 kaeza :P 05:54 kaeza https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/601 05:54 kaeza :D 05:54 * kaeza is starting to love rm -fr 05:54 VanessaE heh 05:57 celeron55 Taoki|away: why did you add the implementation and declaration of gob_cmd_update_physics_override to that position in the file while all the others were in the same order as in the enum? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c5a8448c41e4ea9d33a43cebef61425d4568a46d 05:58 celeron55 (actually not enum but bunch of #defines but anyway) 06:03 VanessaE kaeza: better. :) 06:04 kaeza hah. that's the powa of git push -f! 06:04 VanessaE hehe 06:05 kaeza and now back to my side-project of bringing Puppy builds up to date 06:06 VanessaE cool 06:06 kaeza latest in the repos is 0.4.3 :/ 06:07 VanessaE better than the ubuntu repos, which still hold 0.3.x 10:34 Taoki celeron55: Thought I added the new function exactly like all others. At least that was my intention 10:37 Taoki Aaah... the #define stuff. Yeah... I added that one at the bottom cuz you said not to invert and modify numbers any more. Else I could have centered it as well 10:38 Taoki I tend to prefer adding things in the order that makes sense, not necessarily "newest at the bottom". I'm too perfectionist when coding xD 10:39 Taoki You can re-arrange it in the enum too if it's safe, but I think that's where you said never to modify old numbers cuz it breaks previous clients. Yeah... I should have just added everything new to the bottom really 12:48 Taoki celeron55, PilzAdam: I fixed the aux1_descends problem that everyone was complaining about. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/603 12:48 Taoki The fast movement on ladders problem 12:49 Taoki VanessaE: ^ 12:49 PilzAdam localplayer.cpp:192 this line is way too long 12:50 Taoki Never heard about lines which are too long before :P Relocate the comment at the end in that case 12:50 PilzAdam lines shouldnt contain more than 80 chars and ~100 is the maximum 12:51 Taoki That comment is important so people always know exactly why it's done that way. But move it if needed 12:53 Taoki Anyway I tested locally both with and without aux1_descends and it works as intended 12:57 PilzAdam yes, it works 12:59 PilzAdam also this commit message is too long 13:00 Taoki Aaaargh :P 13:00 Taoki Even that is harmful 13:00 PilzAdam pushed 13:01 Taoki thanks. For the future I'll try to keep stuff shorter if it's important 13:39 Taoki I wonder if anyone else things we should have mapgen floating islands by default in minetest_game... 13:39 Taoki **thinks 13:39 Taoki Tried out the floatlands mod and it's beautiful. Really wouldn't harm to have it default. 13:39 Taoki Once it's no longer so layyg and slow to generate that is 13:40 PilzAdam use mg_name = indev 13:40 PilzAdam it has floating islands 13:46 PilzAdam anything against this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/553 13:48 RealBadAngel nothing 13:49 Jordach no problems in my eyes 13:50 Taoki nope, looks good 13:51 Taoki And what's mg_name - indev? Where and what is that? 13:51 PilzAdam its a setting in minetest.conf 13:51 RealBadAngel Taoki it shall be "nAsWs/c&aux1_d is on" 13:52 RealBadAngel and everybody will know from start what you meant ;) 13:52 Taoki oh, ok. What does it do exactly? 13:54 Taoki What is mg_name = indev exactly though? It enables experimental features in the code? 13:55 PilzAdam we have support for mutlitple map generators in the engine 13:55 PilzAdam the default is mg_v6 13:55 PilzAdam indev is the playground of proller 13:56 Taoki oh nice 13:57 Taoki Still unclear what the statuus is on defining biomes in LUA btw. And getting rid of things like alias_dirt / alias_sand / etc. Of course while the mapgen stays in C++ 13:58 PilzAdam hmmmm is working on magpen v7 13:58 PilzAdam it will have all this register_biome() stuff 13:58 Taoki Awesome! 14:00 Taoki Hoping it would be something like "define areas where these types of nodes are used, and have this amount of caves, tunnels, rivers, etc" 14:01 Taoki Also, I find the indev mapgen a lot prettier :) 14:02 Taoki It generates some amazing places. Default mapgen does too but this one even better 14:02 Taoki However, before I see floating islands I see a few floating trees. And no, not in the good sense :P 14:02 Taoki (very rarely still) 14:03 PilzAdam the only difference is that it has larger mountains at the edge and floating islands 14:04 proller and CAVES 14:05 proller and biomes larger 14:06 Taoki I'm quite above cloud height and see no islands though 14:06 PilzAdam you have to go to 500+ 14:06 proller 500+ - very rare 14:06 proller 30000 - more islands 14:07 proller go to "sky hardcore" server - 14:07 Taoki Wow, that's way high >.< 14:07 proller spawn at 30000 14:07 Taoki How do you do that? 14:07 proller what ? 14:08 proller static_spawnpoint = 15,29539,-8 14:08 proller mg_name = indev 14:08 PilzAdam what mods do you have there? 14:08 Taoki Also, MineTest seems to be bacly lagging the system when in view. Can barely even alt-tab switch although it's windowed 14:08 proller bones elevator minetest-teleporters moretrees nuke plants_lib sponge tnt 14:09 Taoki proller: I meant how to teleport at that height 14:09 proller /teleport 0,30000,0 14:10 Taoki thanks, worked 14:10 Taoki Hmm. Could mods make floating islands be made out of other materials than classic dirt and stone? Also, can you change the spawn height of islands? 14:12 proller # Float islands starts from height, 0 to disable 14:12 proller #mgindev_float_islands = 500 14:13 proller about adding new materials - ask PilzAdam 14:14 Taoki ok 14:15 proller i think about some kinds of float lands, maybe something like walkable clouds 14:15 proller and like asteroids from stone or metal 14:38 Taoki Trees with black leafs are a nice species of tree that got implemented in MineTest ;) 14:40 kaeza I see you are not able to build the executables into a directory different than the source dir; minetest and minetestserver are always output to minetest/bin 14:40 kaeza is there any particular reason for this? 14:41 kaeza I see you are not able to build the executables into a directory different than the source dir; minetest and minetestserver are always output to minetest/bin 14:41 kaeza derp 14:41 kaeza I see you are not able to build the executables into a directory different than the source dir; minetest and minetestserver are always output to minetest/bin 14:41 kaeza I'm editing the CMakeLists.txt file to be able to do it, but asking just in case 14:50 Jordach afternoon Calinou 15:06 proller about floatlands - now we cant build stairs down 15:08 proller you cant buld anything below lower block of float land 15:11 kaeza can someone test this: https://github.com/kaeza/minetest/commit/70a23c2a7898df310b651cc4cf1a50bddb7ba2d6 15:11 proller http://paste.org.ru/?9sk33e 15:11 kaeza I tested and works as expected 15:15 PilzAdam proller, you can, with water and lava 15:15 proller where get water or lava in sky? 15:16 PilzAdam doesnt it spawn there? 15:17 proller i tested some water springs at sky, but now waiting hmmmm while he fix ore gen with param1 param2 15:18 proller and springs make now very good lakes in air above unloaded blocks 15:18 proller not good 15:20 proller possible fix - delete liquid when it falls on unloaded node 15:20 proller above sea level only 15:20 PilzAdam there was a fix for it IIRC 15:25 Calinou proller: suggestion: add nodes that do 20 damage per second below floating island 15:25 Calinou 16 layers of them or so :P 15:27 celeron55 Taoki: you didn't understand at all; it's not about what the code does; it's a bout how it's organized 15:27 celeron55 -" " 15:27 Jordach about* 15:30 proller Calinou, for what? you die if fall anyway, but now is bug - you can stop while falling, and land on next island with low speed 15:32 Calinou stop thinking like a debian user; it takes way too long to die 15:32 Calinou or bundle a /kill command with your mod :P 15:36 celeron55 the the fuck kind of new spam is this http://paste.dy.fi/9zr 15:36 Calinou lol :D 15:43 Jordach celeron55, huh, changing from viagra (with virus) to now mobile phone games which read your address book and spam the fuck out of you and your friends 15:56 celeron55 i consider anyone who install such a game very stupid 15:57 celeron55 also, i've always wondered how the viagra crap can possibly spread any computer viruses 15:57 celeron55 like... do people, like, think at all? 15:58 Jordach celeron55, not anymore, this is the age of instant gratificartion 15:58 Jordach -r 15:58 Jordach where people are essentially sheep 16:02 celeron55 i've always wondered if i should make a re-branded "minetest for sheep" 16:02 celeron55 it could be a hit 16:02 celeron55 :D 16:04 Jordach celeron55, go ahead 16:09 celeron55 it'd need to be a very stripped down and polished version with some very simple focus and a installer that is closer a virus than an actual legit installer 16:11 celeron55 i'm supportive of this as an experiment; but not really ideologically 16:11 Jordach see how dumb people are by giving a zipfile which just contains a link to a survey download 16:12 Jordach (some download sites have the downloader to answern surveys which never answer) 16:13 kaeza point them to this: http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ 16:13 * Jordach claps 17:10 Taoki celeron55: Yeah. I meant I like to keep it clean and organize everything in order, but I should have added this at the bottom instead 17:17 celeron55 yes, that is what i mean; while the code does what it should, it's not in perfect order while it could as well be 17:18 PilzAdam why isnt launchpad updated to 0.4.6 yet? 17:18 celeron55 because i haven't remembered 17:19 celeron55 probably somebody other should register there and let me teach how to use it 17:20 celeron55 also, launchpad isn't updated to have tracking bazaar repos for the other games 17:20 celeron55 it needs to be done via support tickets 17:21 celeron55 launchpad is a fucking pain overally, i don't really understand why i try to tolerate it 17:21 celeron55 anyway, i'll make it make a 0.4.6 with minetest_game 17:22 Taoki celeron55: Anyway, I fxied the annoying ladder speed problem today. Sorry it took so long, but now everything's fine at last for aux1_descends users :) 17:24 celeron55 Taoki: i saw that 17:24 celeron55 haven't tried yet though 17:25 Taoki Thinking of other things for the engine and which of them I can help with doing 17:26 celeron55 actually... now that i think of it, i think you *can* make tracking repos in bazaar via an online form; it's the changing of them that needs support tickets 17:26 Taoki BTW, tried the floating islands for the first time (the C++ ones in the dev mapgen). Really lovely stuff, can't wait for them to be defaulted on :) 17:26 celeron55 but eh, no, i'm not going to do that 17:27 celeron55 why can't launchpad support plain git repos and get stuff based on tags in them; it would be like million times easier 17:30 Taoki Who handles the mapgen floatislands BTW? I have a suggestion if they're around 17:30 Taoki (haven't seen a forum topic for these, just for the LUA floatlands mod) 17:32 celeron55 i think proller is the one messing around with the "indev" mapgen 17:33 celeron55 yeah, the forum isn't really used for core stuff development, except by some people 17:33 proller its port of floatlands mod with minor changes 17:33 celeron55 this channel and github are better for tracking such 17:34 proller but dislike this algorithm, it uses 3 differend perlins, but islandg looks good 17:35 proller ups, misses.. 17:36 Taoki oh, ok :) 17:36 PilzAdam celeron55, I have set up an launchpad account 17:37 Taoki proller: My question was if you could add water to float islands too. In some cases near the edge, so that waterfalls will go down and even reach the ground eventually (might not happen due to the huge distance but still) 17:38 proller ^^^ and springs make not very good lakes in air above unloaded blocks 17:38 proller ^^^ i tested some water springs at sky, but now waiting hmmmm while he fix ore gen with param1 param2 17:39 proller springs was broken in new oregen 17:39 proller but possible add with old lua function 17:41 Taoki proller: Another suggestion; The version paramat made uses special nodes for floating islands (float-stone and float-dirt which is dirt of a more cyan color). Do you think the mapgen version should do the same? Would be nicer than using the same type of stone and dirt as the normal ground 17:42 proller and i think visual of flowed water must be remaked, its too buggy now 17:43 proller i think i must go home right now, will answer later 17:43 celeron55 PilzAdam: if you have any questions, i recommend asking before doing 17:43 Taoki ok 17:44 celeron55 PilzAdam: also, ask too if you don't have anything to ask, because then i am guessing you just don't know what to ask (because nobody can know how to use launchpad before having done or heard all the mistakes once) 17:44 Taoki BTW. Was there some debug key to enable wireframe mode? I forgot, and wanted to check something 17:51 celeron55 Taoki: no 17:51 celeron55 (afaik) 17:51 Taoki ok 17:52 Taoki celeron55: I wanted to check if block and nodebox surfaces are drawn as triangles or quads, for performance. Not sure if Irrlicht allows this itself, but IIRC if the surface doesn't generate any spikes, it can be drawn out of quads instead of triangles which might be faster. 17:52 Taoki Since the surfaces of blxes / voxels are flat this would work 17:53 Taoki IIRC pure OpenGL allows it. You can define a quad surface 17:53 PilzAdam celeron55, the code gets imported automatically into the bazaar repo? 18:11 celeron55 PilzAdam: yes 18:12 celeron55 then dailies automatically built from it; the stable packages are built according to the recipe (which you can probably find), that needs to be updated for each version and then the new build must be requested 18:12 celeron55 to make a new stable build, three things must be changed: the package version, the minetest bzr revision and the minetest_game bzr revision 18:13 celeron55 the ppaX at the end of the package version is for new launchpad builds of the same minetest version (because you screw them up half of the time) 18:14 celeron55 all builds use the minetest_packaging or something like that repo that contains all the debian packaging things, including the command line for building and the package description 18:15 celeron55 generally the daily builds don't need to be tuned at all; i guess that needs to be done only when the packaging repo is updated, or if more games or something would be added 18:18 celeron55 complicated enough? 8) 18:19 PilzAdam updating the recipe for stable just means setting the revno to the commit? 18:21 PilzAdam and how would one set up the bazaar branches for common, survival and build? 18:22 celeron55 somewhere there is some "import external repository" thing 18:22 PilzAdam hmm... the stable build you made shouldnt work because you are missing common 18:22 celeron55 that's very true... didn't even remember 8D 18:22 celeron55 as you can see, that was ppa0 18:22 PilzAdam same for unstable 18:23 PilzAdam *daily 18:23 celeron55 beware that if you screw up the external import, you need to contact launchpad support to modify it 18:24 celeron55 i feel bad for anyone trying to package minetest 0.4 18:25 celeron55 0.3 is like the easiest possible, 0.4 is like the hardest possible 18:25 * PilzAdam cant find the import button 18:25 PilzAdam this interface sucks 18:26 celeron55 hmm 18:27 celeron55 i'm sure i found it once 18:28 celeron55 apparently it isn't automated: https://help.launchpad.net/Code/Imports 18:29 celeron55 this is the request form https://code.launchpad.net/+code-imports/+new 18:29 celeron55 i think we may need to implement gamepacks 8) 18:29 celeron55 it's too complicated to manage multiple game repos in some situations 18:29 celeron55 like this 18:30 PilzAdam should I fill these forms for common, build and survival? 18:30 celeron55 i guess so 18:31 PilzAdam what is a "branch" in bazaar? 18:31 PilzAdam is it master or common? 18:32 celeron55 umm 18:32 celeron55 you mean the "Branch Name:" thing in that form? 18:32 PilzAdam I would guess its "common" 18:32 PilzAdam yes 18:32 celeron55 leave it as is 18:33 celeron55 that is "trunk" 18:33 celeron55 i don't understand what that does but at least "common" or "master" makes zero sense 18:33 PilzAdam well, here is the list of branches: https://code.launchpad.net/~minetestdevs 18:34 PilzAdam and they are named "minetest-c55" etc. 18:34 celeron55 ah 18:34 celeron55 wtf 18:34 PilzAdam and it says that it will be used in the URL to identify the branch 18:35 celeron55 name them after the github repos then 18:35 celeron55 and set the project to "minetest-c55" 18:36 celeron55 and set the owner to minetestdevs 18:37 PilzAdam https://code.launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/minetest-c55/common 18:39 PilzAdam ummm 18:39 PilzAdam the whole layout has changed: https://launchpad.net/minetest-c55 18:39 celeron55 i have a feeling this is going to explode somehow 18:43 PilzAdam oh, seems that was the site for the 0.3.1 packages that are in the official ubuntu repos 18:45 PilzAdam the minetestdevs site still looks the same and has the common branch in it (unimported yet) 18:45 PilzAdam I make the forms for the other games now 18:49 VanessaE PilzAdam: where was it that you added that little delay that made falling sand/gravel work? 18:49 PilzAdam in builtin/falling.lua in the nodeupdate() function 18:50 VanessaE thought so. 18:50 VanessaE regression warning: this causes a massive lag when using worldedit //fixlight 18:51 VanessaE I suggest not adding it there, but rather to the part of the code that causes each sand/gravel block to start falling, if that's possible. 18:52 VanessaE (e.g. to some place where it won't be executed by mods that force nodeupdates for other reasons) 18:52 PilzAdam why? 18:53 VanessaE because the point of adding that delay was so that gravel/sand falls properly, but it horribly kills performance for things that need nodeupdate but don't care about the falling code. 18:54 PilzAdam umm... what? 18:54 PilzAdam nodeupate() only handles falling nodes 18:54 VanessaE 81000 nodes updated with my last //fixlight command, which uses dig_node() on air, which forces a nodeupdate. 18:54 VanessaE which means 8100 seconds for the "rest" of minetest to pick up after worldedit finishes. 18:55 VanessaE this used to only take 10 seconds or less 18:56 VanessaE I'll revert that commit from my local copy and rebuild to be sure. 18:57 PilzAdam well, nodeupate_single() is called for the same amount of nodes as before 18:58 PilzAdam the only difference is that only 1 of the 9 nodeupdate_single() calls is done instantly 18:58 PilzAdam the other 8 are queued to on_globalstep() 18:59 VanessaE same amount of nodes, but now more time per node 18:59 VanessaE with a few it's fine, with large amounts the time stacks up exponentially 18:59 PilzAdam so the first 8100 nodeupdate_single() calls are done instantly, and the other 64800 are done 0.1 seconds after that 19:00 VanessaE yeah 19:00 VanessaE that's 6480 seconds. 19:00 PilzAdam before that all 72900 calls were done instantly 19:00 VanessaE that's a bit less than two hours 19:00 PilzAdam that's 6480 seconds. <- wrong 19:00 VanessaE before, all 81000 calls were done in maybe 10 seconds or less. 19:00 PilzAdam they are all done in the same environment step 19:01 VanessaE um 19:01 VanessaE no 19:01 PilzAdam the delay isnt added for every single node 19:01 VanessaE ok, I just rebuilt without your commit 19:01 VanessaE let's see how it handles now. 19:01 PilzAdam you dont have to rebuild 19:02 PilzAdam builtin can be modified without rebuilding 19:03 VanessaE ok I just proved it 19:03 VanessaE without your patch, it takes 6 seconds to update 85000 nodes. 19:03 VanessaE with your patch, it goes on endlessly. 19:03 PilzAdam it is simply no difference in do the whole work in at once, or doing 1/9 and the other 8/9 after 0.1 seconds 19:03 VanessaE I just tested it. 19:03 VanessaE your code causes a massive regression. 19:04 PilzAdam this cant be 19:04 VanessaE I just timed it. 19:05 VanessaE I reverted your patch, recompiled (yeah I forgot I didn't need to), restarted, and executed a //fixlight on a slightly larger volume (closest I could get). 19:05 VanessaE it completed in 6 seconds. 19:05 PilzAdam are you sure that it doesnt stop with the commit? 19:05 VanessaE 100% positive. 19:05 PilzAdam that doesnt make sense at all 19:06 VanessaE maybe not, but that's where it stands 19:06 PilzAdam do you have LuaJIT running? 19:06 VanessaE maybe you're just not understanding when/how that function is being called or something 19:06 VanessaE yes I do, of course. 19:08 PilzAdam can you try it with a delay of 0 in minetest.after()? 19:09 VanessaE sure 19:10 VanessaE wait, where is that at? 19:10 PilzAdam falling.lua:179 19:11 VanessaE oh, that's with your patch in place heh. 19:11 VanessaE I already reverted it. 19:11 VanessaE just try it yourself, it's really easy to spot. 19:11 VanessaE take out your patch. Run worldedit, select at least a 50,000 node region, //fixlight 19:12 VanessaE then put your patch in and do exactly the same thing. 19:12 PilzAdam celeron55, anything else todo than adding "nest common lp:~minetestdevs/minetest-c55/common games/common" to the recipes? 19:12 PilzAdam (same for the other games) 19:12 PilzAdam VanessaE, I dont have worldedit 19:12 VanessaE PilzAdam: so install it? 19:12 PilzAdam Im fighting with launchpad currently 19:13 VanessaE ok 19:13 VanessaE I recommend you revert that commit from upstream. 19:21 celeron55 PilzAdam: dunno, try 8) 19:23 PilzAdam should I also request a daily build? 19:24 VanessaE PilzAdam: in addition to default fire and leafdecay, a lot of external mods directly call nodeupdate also...though I don't see that being done in worldedit. 19:24 VanessaE somehow the dig_node() command must be calling it. 19:24 PilzAdam yes, its called in minetest.register_on_dignode() 19:24 VanessaE that's why. 19:25 VanessaE each call of minetest.after() causes a delay of x seconds 19:25 PilzAdam nope 19:25 VanessaE and if you //fixlight, you're executing dig_node() for every air node therein. 19:25 PilzAdam that is wrong 19:25 celeron55 PilzAdam: you can request a daily build anytime; they're quite disposable 19:26 celeron55 they aren't archived anywhere or anything 19:26 VanessaE wrong or not, directly or indirectly invoking nodeupdate() is the only possible way to force a lighting update. 19:26 VanessaE you need to add that delay to the part of the falling code that calls nodeupdate() in the first place. 19:27 VanessaE not to nodeupdate() itself 19:27 celeron55 nodeupdate() is not really in the API anyway 19:27 PilzAdam celeron55, it is 19:27 PilzAdam since its moved to builtin 19:28 celeron55 ehm... well i guess so then 19:30 VanessaE well, whether it's in the API or not, you busted it. ;) 19:30 celeron55 but the fact that worldedit even calls it is very wrong 19:30 celeron55 it doesn't need to be supported 19:32 VanessaE worldedit uses dig_node. 19:32 celeron55 dig_node isn't meant to work for such bulk operations 19:32 VanessaE anything that calls dig_node() is affected. 19:33 VanessaE well how else do you expect a mod to be able to force a lighting update to fix bad shadows? 19:33 celeron55 set_node is the only one supported when you have to do >5 node changes in one go 19:34 VanessaE there is no method I know of in the API (or not) that can cause a node's lighting to be updated except for dig_node() and the equivalent placement functions. 19:34 celeron55 VanessaE: fix lighting bugs in the first place, or add an api function for recalculating lighting in some place 19:34 celeron55 it isn't rocket science and both of these are obvious 19:34 VanessaE but that's not an option here. 19:35 celeron55 digging nodes when you want to recalculate lighting is nonsense 19:35 VanessaE this already worked great before pilzadam's patch 19:35 VanessaE his patch broke it, and that's the end of it. 19:35 celeron55 your way of always preserving compatibility over making things right is nonsense, ridiculous and will lead this project doom 19:35 celeron55 i recommend stopping it, or at least understanding that nobody should listen it 19:35 celeron55 +to 19:36 VanessaE no, what will lead to the death of this project is constant breaking of things that worked perfectly before. 19:36 celeron55 no it won't 19:36 celeron55 not in the scale we're doing it 19:37 celeron55 modders should more often implement useful features to the engine instead of working around them with hacks 19:37 VanessaE jesus H. I'm talking about a, what was it, 4 line change to nodeupdate() that breaks a dozen mods for no benefit at all. 19:37 celeron55 that way these can be avoided altogether 19:38 celeron55 i'm pretty sure there is some reason for such a change 19:38 VanessaE which makes more sense? rewrite a dozen mods, or move a couple of lines in nodeupdate() ? 19:38 celeron55 depends on reasons 19:39 VanessaE celeron55: I'm talking about a several minutes' delay in executing a function that used to take a few seconds. 19:39 VanessaE THAT is reason enough not to allow that change. 19:39 VanessaE the delay was added to fix a bug in falling code. Put the change where it will only affect the falling code, not where it'll affect a bunch of other shit 19:40 proller Taoki, i think its bad to add random new blocks, we need something like Story with relations between blocks 19:40 VanessaE then if there's some one random mod that needs that delay, that one person can add it him/herself. 19:40 Taoki proller: Not random new blocks. Just a special type of smooth stone and dirt to use for floating islands 19:40 Taoki I like the cyan sand the LUA version uses 19:41 VanessaE (which, at present, is only the falling code, to my knowledge, though mesecons has minor timing glitches also) 19:41 Taoki Called float-sand and float-stone 19:41 celeron55 VanessaE: i guess you need to find a proper solution with PilzAdam then 19:41 VanessaE I just found one. 19:41 proller Taoki, for example like avatar idea about float lands, simple stone with rare ore with special properties (flying) 19:42 VanessaE dig_node() worked perfectly fine before the way it is being used 19:42 VanessaE there was no reason to bust it like that 19:42 Taoki proller: Nah, simple stone is kinda dead. It's nice to have smooth stone and dirt. But a slightly different type 19:42 celeron55 updating lighting with dig_node() makes me puke 19:43 VanessaE celeron55: well, it works. 19:43 PilzAdam VanessaE, I tested it now 19:43 VanessaE and it works perfectly fine. 19:43 celeron55 why won't remove_node work? 19:43 celeron55 or whatever it is 19:43 VanessaE celeron55: because fixlight needs to operate on AIR. 19:43 PilzAdam //fixlight takes exactly the same time as before 19:43 proller Taoki, float-sand and float-stone must have relations via crafting with rest of the world 19:43 celeron55 VanessaE: and? 19:43 Taoki Heh. Cuz Minetest needs hardware lighting like christians need Jesus :) 19:43 VanessaE PilzAdam: how much of a region did you test? 19:43 PilzAdam the problem is the environment step after 0.1 seconds 19:43 Taoki Updating the lightmap like that is hacky IMO 19:44 VanessaE PilzAdam: exactly 19:44 Taoki Just one thing that's hacky about the current lighting 19:44 VanessaE the actual command executes just fine, but the server hangs like hell when it's done. 19:44 Taoki proller: Well normal dirt or stone can't be crafted, they're only natural 19:44 PilzAdam VanessaE, easy to fix: set minetest.timer_to_add = {} after looping through the dignodes in worldedit 19:44 celeron55 Taoki: i think all hardware lighting except raytracing is just full of hacks, this voxel lighting is good 19:44 VanessaE PilzAdam: no, WE DON'T BREAK USERSPACE. 19:44 proller Taoki, player must be need in float-* materials in some purposes 19:45 PilzAdam this doesnt break anything 19:45 VanessaE fix the problem in the engine code or in falling.lua 19:45 celeron55 Taoki: your intention seems mostly to be removing voxel lighting from minetest and replacing it with something that can only run on modern hardware, which i frown upon 19:45 VanessaE I ripped your change out and it fixed the problem. Which means you need to only be adding those timers to FALLING nodes. 19:45 VanessaE not to ALL nodes that are dug 19:45 Taoki proller: Well we have sand and desert-sand currently, which are the exact same thing only different color 19:45 celeron55 or alternatively making it look like shit on older hardware 19:45 PilzAdam it needs to be done if a mod calls dig_node() excessively 19:45 Taoki celeron55: Not removing entirely as long as older hardware -needs- it 19:46 VanessaE PilzAdam: and what about all the mods out there that have to call nodeupdate()? 19:46 celeron55 Taoki: if it's not removed, then issues with it aren't removed either; thus, it is not a solution to anything 19:46 PilzAdam how much do they call it? 19:46 proller Taoki, better for some thing player must get some rare material from sky and from hell, it must encourage trade and world explore 19:46 Taoki celeron55: If everything we wanted was possible, I do wish it could be removed entirely. But that depends if HW lights would work with older hardware too. If not then it should stay optional 19:46 celeron55 Taoki: so don't propose it as any kind of solution 19:46 PilzAdam I dont think they call it for 10000+ nodes 19:46 VanessaE PilzAdam: 83 separate calls in my entire mods tree 19:46 Taoki Yeah I guess 19:47 VanessaE (and none of them are my mods) 19:47 PilzAdam VanessaE, for how many nodes per environment step= 19:47 PilzAdam *? 19:47 Taoki But I'll correct; Only removed as long as older hardware can't handle normal lighting. As in light entities from Irrlicht. Normally, those can be handled even without shaders... but like we discussed shades are needed to mask it in caves 19:47 Taoki So if the problem is still there then yeah 19:47 VanessaE PilzAdam: beats me, I have no way to count that up 19:47 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, introducing delay to stuff not connected in anyway to falling nodes is a bad idea 19:48 VanessaE I know technic makes significant use of it in constructors, deployers, node breakers 19:48 VanessaE I see lots of calls in mesecons 19:49 celeron55 Taoki: once the hardware we consider "old" runs such shaders reasonably, we'll probably throw the voxel lighting completely away; until then, it will stay 19:49 VanessaE hm, homedecor does make one call to it in the 3dforniture import (blame tonyka) 19:49 Taoki celeron55: Makes sense, that's correct. But if better lighting can be added, it should then stay optionally 19:49 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, why? 19:49 celeron55 Taoki: also, for that to happen at that time, there needs to be someone around who has or will implement the shadered shadows and stuff 19:50 celeron55 Taoki: currently, we have nobody who can do that 19:50 Taoki I know. I really wish I could, but I have virtually no diea about those things :( 19:50 Taoki Yeah, really sucks 19:50 PilzAdam VanessaE, every mod only calls it for single nodes 19:50 PilzAdam except worldedit 19:50 celeron55 also, those who can do that don't want to touch minetest; minetest is like total crap from their viewpoint 19:50 celeron55 they want stuff that is designed from the ground up for modern graphcis 19:50 Taoki They're fools :P 19:50 Taoki Oh, MineTest can have very modern graphics once this is done 19:51 VanessaE PilzAdam: still, you should put the delay in the FALLING code, not in nodeupdate. 19:51 PilzAdam nodeupated is the falling code 19:51 VanessaE I'm not saying to get rid of the idea, I'm saying to localize and limit its effects to that which you originally intended to fix anyway 19:51 VanessaE yeah and DIG NODE uses it! 19:51 celeron55 i could consider throwing some coffee money out of donation budget to someone who'd do that, if nobody does it for free 19:51 VanessaE you literally affect EVERY mod that uses dig_node() for any reason at all 19:51 Taoki celeron55: If shaders are used for light shadows, are the lights done there too? I keep hoping we can use the light entities in Irrlicht and speficy them in C++. ButI assume it would be a combination between that and shaders 19:51 RealBadAngel mesecons are falling stuff? 19:51 PilzAdam there is no way to have the delay when a player digs the node, and not have it when a mod calls it 19:52 VanessaE I'm just saying to move it up one level, out of nodeupdate() and into the code that calls nodeupdate. 19:52 VanessaE RealBadAngel: probably for a piston pushing objects around, or the movestone 19:52 Taoki celeron55: I'd donate to someone to do that too. Though we're sort of in a money crisis so even 10$ would have me killed :P But I'd certainly try it 19:52 VanessaE PilzAdam: then. put. it. in. the. falling. code. itself. 19:52 PilzAdam VanessaE, not possible, since the player call dig_node() to dig nodes 19:52 PilzAdam what do you mean by falling code? 19:52 VanessaE where you convert each node into an entity 19:52 celeron55 Taoki: if you find some people with some odd fetishes to retro opengl wrapped in a clumsy cross-platform library (irrlicht), tell them minetest could use some work 8D 19:52 VanessaE that's the proper place to put it 19:53 Taoki celeron55: But 10$ for something like this could upset you if it's too little ;) 19:53 Taoki (cuz I don't see who else can at all) 19:53 VanessaE gotta run, back later. 19:53 Taoki later 19:53 PilzAdam where you convert each node into an entity <- why havent you said this before? 19:54 VanessaE because I thought you would understand what I meant? 19:54 VanessaE I didn't think it needed to be stated that explicitly. 19:54 VanessaE anyway, out -> 19:55 PilzAdam this would cause a delay for the node at the postion of nodeupdate too 19:55 celeron55 PilzAdam: that is the original problem here? 19:55 celeron55 what* 19:56 PilzAdam a large table being generate/copied in the env step after calling nodeupate() for thousands of nodes at the same time 19:56 celeron55 that is the resulting problem of the current fix to the problem that i am asking about 19:57 PilzAdam the table has #(nodes)*8 elements 19:57 PilzAdam the original intention of me for adding the dealy was 1) entities arent spawned all at the same time and 2) it looks good 19:58 PilzAdam *delay 19:58 Taoki Anyway, something just as important: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=81733 I'm curious what people think about this especially the main devs 19:58 celeron55 why don't you just limit the size of the table 19:58 celeron55 if it grows higher than like 10, start just updating immediately 19:59 PilzAdam it could be fixed by moving the delay to the place were the entity is actually genereated 19:59 PilzAdam because the delay causes the table to grow 20:01 celeron55 i don't know... but if the performance is decreased 100x like VanessaE says, it isn't good 20:02 celeron55 there needs to be a way to make it efficient, even while cases that actually make it take seconds are silly 20:02 PilzAdam yep, fixed it 20:05 Taoki celeron55: BTW, regarding the voxel lighting. My own idea would actually still require it. Which is to use the current "lightmaps" as a way to limit hardware lights outdoor, at least for sun 20:05 Taoki So basically: When HW lighting is off, voxel light areas are used like they are currently; bright spots 20:05 Taoki When HW lighting is on however, they're used to indicate where the infinite light can shine 20:06 Taoki It would also remain needed so the light value at each node can be detected, which is needed by mods. For example to know when it's dark so you can spawn a mob 20:07 Taoki The only real issue is how to use this as a mask for lights. That I can't tell 20:08 celeron55 i can imagine tricks that don't even need shaders, but they're hard and might need bare opengl (but i've said this before) 20:08 Taoki We have the current voxel light system which knows what light value each node should have from the sun / moon, and we can add an Irrlicht light with just one line of code. But how to combine them is the thing :P 20:08 Taoki yeah, those tricks would be awesome 20:10 Taoki There actually is a trick that can be used currently as well; Add a black texture over nodes to cancel lighting or dim it. Using the existing light calculations of the voxel system 20:11 Taoki Or fill color that covers the texture. I assume multi-texturing likely works under Irrlicht 20:11 Taoki Pretty sure you can set surfaces to not be affected by lights, or limit some surfaces to some lights only. 20:12 Taoki Problem is how to do it smoothly AND not break lights coming from torches placed indoor 20:14 celeron55 well, you can always do multiple render passes without clearing the frame or z buffers (and you should be able to swap lights between them) 20:14 celeron55 that'll more or less eat framerate though 20:14 Taoki Yeah. That might be doable without shaders too 20:14 Taoki hmm 20:15 celeron55 and isn't trivial anyway 20:18 celeron55 one could render all kinds of special masks based on what receives voxel sunlight or light at all or something, and then AND or OR that to something else and whatever 20:18 celeron55 but it's again very nontrivial 20:18 celeron55 especially getting something useful out of it 20:18 Taoki Having real light is an important thing I believe. I think it's the most major feature that would be needed 20:19 Taoki There are others too but especially this 20:19 Taoki I think special masks are sort of the best or only way to go though 20:19 hmmmm [01:38 PM] ^^^ and springs make not very good lakes in air above unloaded blocks 20:20 celeron55 i think it would be reasonable to only implement it with shaders 20:20 hmmmm yeah, that's something i couldn't really figure out when i first saw the problem 20:20 celeron55 or maybe not 20:20 celeron55 it's hard to decide where to draw the line 20:20 hmmmm i don't know, i need to look at it more, but either way, the insane SEnv lag when water flows into an unloaded chunk == unacceptable 20:20 Taoki Shaders are usually for improved effects anbd the like. Lighting would be... sorta too important to be shader-only 20:21 hmmmm need to add some sort of check in updateLighting() so it doesn't bother to keep trying to update that 20:21 celeron55 in modern 3d graphics, you don't have fixed pipeline at all and use shaders for everything, including lights 20:21 hmmmm [02:25 PM] 0.3 is like the easiest possible, 0.4 is like the hardest possible 20:22 hmmmm all 0.3 versions have problems with missing libintl for me 20:22 hmmmm i need to remove -lintl from a certain cmake file to get anything older than 0.4.1 to build 20:22 Taoki heh. Way too modern :P 20:22 hmmmm 0.4 is hard because of the JThread mess and the json crap 20:22 proller hmmmm, very simple to fix water in transform_liquids - drop if bottom unloaded 20:22 celeron55 Taoki: that's how you'd do any new project if you started it today 20:22 hmmmm proller, need to make it more general 20:23 hmmmm i'll look at it more later on 20:23 hmmmm first i need to go pass out 20:23 Taoki celeron55: Thing is that Irrlicht light entities should also work for that old hardware which can't handle shaders. And barely reduce performance if at all 20:23 celeron55 Taoki: true 20:24 hmmmm i couldn't play eduke32 with dynamic lighting even 20:24 hmmmm and i don't think an 8400gs is too old 20:24 Taoki And there are some mask hacks I can think of to hide sunlight in caves. At worst we use a black color on the texture, opposite of the current voxel lights. Where the suinlight doesn't shine at all, the surface would be fully black. Black can't be lit 20:25 celeron55 but really, this problem needs to be thought from the standpoint of using hardware lighting, and then asking the question: how can voxel lighting be used to make caves dark, *without* making torches in them dark 20:25 Taoki And to make sure that unlit caves aren't 100% darkl unless a torch is placed, bumped up manually by some ambient lighting 20:25 proller hmmmm, other variants will be much more difficult, or impossible if you make infinity spring at 30000 20:25 Taoki celeron55: Yes. Thgat's how I'm thinking of it 20:26 Taoki The closest hack in mind though is using black color to kill sunlight. But that would also kill torch lights 20:26 proller hmmmm, best way is load block under, but you cant load all blocks to -31000 20:27 Taoki I feel we're pretty close with a solution though... somehow. Still far but close :P 20:27 celeron55 it's just that you haven't yet thought about the thing that will make the solution not work at all 20:28 Taoki yeah. Torches would now be the problem 20:28 celeron55 but really, one would first need to know all the things that can be done with irrlicht with old hardware 20:28 celeron55 it's probably more than one would think, and probably different things than one would think 20:31 celeron55 hmm, assuming it is possible to render a "mask" that can be used to dim everything not touched by sunlight, it would be possible to just let it dim torches when you're in sunlight, and when you go to a cave and don't look outside, the dimming would be turned off and ambient light would be turned off 20:31 hmmmm proller, can the springs spawn above water_level? 20:31 celeron55 -> torches are bright 20:31 Taoki Ahhh, I think I remembered something actually. If I'm correct there is a diffuse parameter for faces in Irrlicht. It allows changing how much light a surface takes, without changing its color. I hope I'm right about that 20:32 Taoki You can adjust diffuse and specular separately yeah... I think 20:32 celeron55 that would be a reasonable solution and would need only single extra pass to make the mask 20:32 Taoki Yes. Can someone else check just to be 100% sure? 20:32 celeron55 (what i said, i mean) 20:32 Taoki Ah, ok 20:32 Taoki I think I saw the diffuse option when I implemented my models 20:33 Taoki Oh, I remember better. It's called "diffuse color". I already added it to colorize entities. But if all 3 values are adjusted together than it just decreases how much lighting the surface takes 20:33 Taoki diffuse_color, specular_color... I think there was a third one but mattered less 20:34 celeron55 minetest basically currently uses diffuse color to set the lighting of *everything* 20:34 celeron55 afaik 20:34 celeron55 you can't really use diffuse color to set lighting if hardware lighting is enabled 20:34 celeron55 it's very nonlinear and unpredictable then 20:34 Taoki Found my lines: m_animated_meshnode->getMaterial(i).AmbientColor = m_prop.colors[i]; m_animated_meshnode->getMaterial(i).DiffuseColor = m_prop.colors[i]; m_animated_meshnode->getMaterial(i).SpecularColor = m_prop.colors[i]; 20:35 Taoki So there's AmbientColor, DiffuseColor, and SpecularColor 20:35 Taoki I wonder what the difference is between AmbientColor and DiffuseColor 20:35 celeron55 http://blog.lexique-du-net.com/index.php?post/2009/07/24/AmbientDiffuseEmissive-and-specular-colorSome-examples 20:36 PilzAdam celeron55, VanessaE, here is a working fix: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/97f0bb03423b6d2e22058166b677e568c53d7567 20:36 Taoki Oh... I see 20:36 celeron55 that is, diffuse color will show up when you point it with non-ambient light and ambient color when it isn't pointed with such.... ehm... well, i can't say i would understand how that would actually work 20:37 proller hmmmm, if you write it to register_ore with height >0 and param128, i tried it on my server, its ok. and its only way to run down witout death 20:37 Taoki Me neither. Sounds more like bounce lighting 20:38 Taoki Still, this parameter does bring us closer to a solution hopefully. Only issue would be how to separate sunlight from torches and torches from each other as well 20:39 Taoki Hopefully all with Irrlicht functions 20:40 celeron55 i don't think that is close to a solution 20:49 Taoki celeron55: Someone in #icclicht mentioned a light manager, which could solve our problem. Supposedly it can separate nodes from certain lights 20:50 Taoki Found a video which uses it, the description is interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO3pRcymG-w 20:50 Taoki He also linked this: http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/example020.html 20:51 Taoki "Normally, you are limited to 8 dynamic lights per scene: this is a hardware limit. If you want to use more dynamic lights in your scene, then you can register an optional light manager that allows you to to turn lights on and off at specific point during rendering. You are still limited to 8 lights, but the limit is per scene node." 20:52 celeron55 that doesn't help at all in our problem 20:53 Taoki Ahh. Got the impression it's exactly it. Since it allows separating lights per nodes 20:53 celeron55 the only thing it does is multiplexes light sources to allow having more than 8 20:54 Taoki ah 20:54 Taoki He still said the light manager could be used to achieve this. Maybe not in that example 20:54 celeron55 i am wondering that you might have even asked 20:55 Taoki [23:42:31] Separate question, not sure if I asked some months ago already: Is there really no way to make some surfaces be affected by some lights only? Some function, or hack... 20:55 Taoki [23:46:01] Can be multiple nodes too at worst. But for example if I place two surfaces one next to the other and two lights one next to the other. I mean some way to make one surface affected by one light and the other by the other light 20:55 Taoki Hold on actually, 20:56 Taoki http://pastebin.com/cmVBWtX3 20:56 celeron55 that is simply achieved by swapping lights on and off between rendering different stuff; there's no magic there 20:56 Taoki No magic, but would it work? 20:57 celeron55 are you aware that node means something completely different in irrlicht than in minetest? 20:57 Taoki I think. A node in MT is usually a block. Nodes in Irrlicht are like holders for meshes IIRC 20:58 celeron55 something like that 20:58 Taoki Still, I think each surface of a block in MT is an Irrlicht node. Or at least each whole block 20:58 Taoki From what I quickly seen in the code once 20:59 celeron55 actually the whole minetest voxel world is a single irrlicht node 20:59 celeron55 but it's irrelevant here (except that it makes the direct use of the light manager not possible) 20:59 Taoki Right. In that case there is a problem 20:59 Taoki ok then. Was going to ask if separating caves into other nodes could allow them to be lit separately 21:00 celeron55 we can switch lights on and off in the map rendering code anyway 21:00 celeron55 or, well, world 21:00 celeron55 Taoki: i believe so 21:00 Taoki True. But once could be seeing multiple lights at once 21:00 Taoki Both sunlight and a torch in a cave 21:00 Taoki **one 21:01 celeron55 basically, stuff designated as being caves or insides of things would be rendered without the sunlight light 21:01 Taoki Yeah. Caves could be separated into a second Irrlicht node with its own lighting effects 21:01 celeron55 no 21:02 celeron55 don't mix up any irrlicht nodes in here 21:02 Taoki ok 21:02 celeron55 it's irrelevant here and only makes things hard 21:02 Taoki Hmm... and there's another problem in the mix; Torches themselves would need their lighting cut. Since you wouldn't want to place a torch on one side of the wall and have its light on the other... even in a deep cave with no sun light 21:02 RealBadAngel http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/example003.html 21:03 celeron55 Taoki: for that and for any shadows outside you need shadows; there are someting like two ways to make them traditionally using irrlicht 21:04 celeron55 they require two render passes and whatever 21:04 Taoki Yeah, I think the same 21:04 RealBadAngel the sample code of scene node looks suspiciously similar to mt node ;) 21:04 Taoki Well, we can go with that if it's really really needed. How much can two passes decrease performance 21:05 celeron55 RealBadAngel: IIRC minetest started as that example 21:05 celeron55 altough all custom scene nodes always are implemented like how minetest implements the world 21:06 Taoki There is another way too. But eeven more FPS costly 21:06 RealBadAngel so, we *can* treat mt node as irrlicht scene node object 21:06 Taoki That would be to use dynamic shadows / light cutting. So every surface casts a direct sharp shadow. But that's usually meant to be an option itself cuz it's pretty consuming to do for each block 21:06 celeron55 Taoki: well, 2x 21:07 Taoki Only issue with light cutting would be if the ceiling of a cave hasn't loaded (eg: is beyond your draw distance). No blocks are detected and the system could think you're outside. But I guess that's less important for starters 21:07 Taoki Do Irrlicht lights support cutting natively? 21:08 celeron55 it would be quite deceptive to try to think that two passes would take less than twice the time 8) 21:08 Taoki heh 21:08 celeron55 but if you take into account more things, then it will become (much) less 21:08 celeron55 but that depends on what you do with two passes 21:09 celeron55 if you're drawing shadows, then you could probably render a much smaller distance for the shadow pass 21:09 Taoki yeah. And exclude other defails perhaps 21:10 celeron55 there's not really any such details in minetest 21:11 celeron55 anyway... somebody'd just need to start experimenting 21:12 Taoki celeron55: How much worse would dynamic shadows be? 21:12 celeron55 dunno 21:13 celeron55 3d shadows are standard stuff, just google 21:13 Taoki That sounds like it could be quite the solution 21:13 Taoki FPS costly, but better than nothing. Especially if HW lighting can be optional 21:14 Taoki Haha. The person who I spoke to about this is actually on this channel too. Hi serengeor :) 21:15 Taoki celeron55: But yeah. From what I can think, this would be the best if not only solution. And really worth trying out :) Dynamic shadows would instantly do the trick. But I wonder how reliable they are for that... 21:16 Taoki Irrlicht should support it natively and without shaders 21:16 celeron55 ehm, how do you think "dynamic shadows" differ from "shadows"? 21:16 Taoki I mean the same thing sorry 21:17 celeron55 irrlicht can do it, but it's not automatic by any means; it's basically the same as doing it with bare opengl/d3d 21:17 Taoki Hopefully that's ok then 21:19 Jordach can i have a main page suggestion? 21:19 Taoki As in, still doable with Irrlicht 21:19 Jordach as in: http://minetest.net 21:21 Taoki sure 21:21 Jordach celeron55, instead of linking directly to the engine github repo, instead, is it possible to link it to https://github.com/minetest ? 21:21 Taoki Sounds better indeed 21:36 serengeor Taoki, what kind of lighting exists currently in minetest? 21:36 Taoki serengeor: A fake voxel lighting system. Basically, light value is calculated at various points, and the surface's color is changed to reflect it 21:37 Taoki Long story short, light is done by fakely coloring each surface or vertice. But there's many reasons to switch to hardware lights 21:38 Taoki However, if that's done we need a way to keep sunlight from shining in caves. The only info the current light system offers IRC is "the light value at each block". Probably a number between 1 and 10 or something like that. 21:38 Taoki So that info needs to be worked with to mask different lights for different areas 21:41 serengeor I see 21:42 Taoki serengeor: But the situation is complicated. Since for example you can place a lot of torches at once in a cave, and their lights need to show correctly. You might also be seeing the sunlight outside at the same time 21:42 Taoki What would make everything right was if Irrlicht had a way to influnce the effect a specific light has on a specific surface 21:42 Taoki And tell each face or vertice how much light to take from any individual light entity 21:43 serengeor you can use vertex colors to do that 21:44 serengeor and use shader to mix light with vertex color 21:45 serengeor but that just sounds the same as it is now :? 21:45 Taoki serengeor: Problem is that MineTest is meant to run on machines that don't support shaders too. So it would have been awesome to have a shader-less way to do this as well 21:45 Taoki Kind of. It's better to mask a real hardware light than manually change the color of surfaces 21:45 dexter0 3d textures, oh wait. 21:46 Taoki serengeor: Can you think of a shader-less way to do this in Irrlicht though? 21:47 serengeor raytrace the fuck out of it 21:47 Taoki Even if it requires a hack to hide lights in some places... like for instance colorizing that face in black somehow 21:47 serengeor :D 21:47 Taoki heh, yeah that would be one idea :P 21:48 Taoki I suggested dynamic shadows, I think they might be the best option 21:49 dexter0 Unless you use stencil shadows, you'd need to build a shadow map for each light. 21:49 dexter0 err shadow volumes 21:51 Taoki Yep. Stencil shadows would be the way 21:52 Taoki But how do you place a light with stencil shadowing? 22:20 Taoki Ah-hah! This shows how to add shadows to lights... hopefully this is what we need: http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/example008.html 22:33 VanessaE PilzAdam: that seems to work exactly as desired. 22:33 VanessaE worldedit is fast again, and a large region of e.g. falling sand falls in a nice, even wave (until the client starts to lose fps ;) ) 23:05 hmmmm i don't mean to be insulting, but gosh, the forum is filled with what seems like 12 year olds 23:05 hmmmm just read the Moontest thread, pretty lol 23:06 PilzAdam maybe because only 12 year old people play Minetest? 23:06 hmmmm :( 23:06 Taoki Far from it 23:07 * Taoki is a 12 * 2 year old :P 23:17 Taoki BTW. I found out a new method of trolling in MineTest which just happened to me on a server. Trolls can dig holes in stone. If a new player falls in them without either a pickaxe or nodes to put under themselves, and there's no command to teleport to spawn or otherwise, you're stuck there 23:19 Taoki The server's fault for having neither /spawn, /die, or default privileges for either free_move or /teleport 23:31 ShadowNinja I think lua should be able to get a spawn point for servers that don't have static_spawnpoint set