Time  Nick             Message
00:02 hmmmm            proller
00:02 hmmmm            https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/8d4b76829753b3db9020ff1f68fb4b0a57025ed3
00:02 hmmmm            erm
00:02 hmmmm            troller
00:05 sapier           hmm did you know server is a smart pointer?
00:05 hmmmm            no i didn't, is it?
00:06 sapier           yes it is :-) game.cpp L1013
00:06 hmmmm            ....ew
00:06 hmmmm            why
00:07 hmmmm            just so it auto deletes?  seriously?
00:07 sapier           don't know I discovered when trying to fix all those memory leaks valgrind is complaining about
00:07 hmmmm            do you know why that's necessary?  because the_game() is a huge monolithic piece of shit instead of a class like it should be
00:08 sapier           it's quite tricky with pointers spread over different classes noone realy feeling reponsible to cleanup used memory
00:08 hmmmm            this is sort of a reason why i want to avoid smart pointers
00:08 sapier           no I don't have any idea why server is any different to any other big class in there, I'd use new and delete it on exit
00:09 hmmmm            same with a lot of these C++ constructs
00:09 hmmmm            they hide really important details that you should know about
00:09 sapier           atm I feel biggest problem is lack of clean interface ... thats reason why any component holds it's own pointer to crucial other classe
00:09 sapier           s
03:12 sapier1          https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commit/6f9160ea7dca1e20118c793cbaf7187644a09708 << removes texture atlas as well as reduces number of memory leaks for a single login->exit to os cycle from 80+ to < 10
03:14 hmmmm            erm woah
03:14 hmmmm            what is that thing in the biomedefmanager dtor
03:14 sapier1          still there are some difficult to fix leaks left and of course any single text string I didn't fix is still leaking
03:14 hmmmm            also noo
03:14 hmmmm            you can't delete np
03:15 sapier1          I can!
03:15 hmmmm            oh okay nevermind, you allocated a ne wone
03:15 hmmmm            didn't see that
03:15 sapier1          yes because otherwise I can't decide if its an allocated one or default
03:15 sapier1          same for mapgen v6 parameters
03:16 hmmmm            i decided early on that the memory leak there doesn't matter much because it's less than 50 bytes per, and it's only leaked along with a new instance of server
03:16 hmmmm            unfortunately none of that stuff matters because it's pretty much all getting scrapped :/
03:16 hmmmm            i have a new way of doing biomes
03:16 sapier1          it may not matter in sum but it's a problem to find real leaks if those small ones hide everything
03:17 hmmmm            what's with the way you changed the biome factory function there?
03:17 sapier1          biomes have been only a very small part
03:18 sapier1          hmm relicts of debugging I forgot
03:18 sapier1          it's not completed either so I'll change it back when doing remaining changes
03:19 hmmmm            sure, go ahead
03:19 hmmmm            doesn't matter though, 'cause like i said, i'm nuking biome.cpp totally
03:19 sapier1          but tomorrow :-) its 5:30 am
03:19 hmmmm            what
03:19 hmmmm            that's even worse than me
03:19 hmmmm            what's wrong with you
03:20 sapier1          didn't notice time while getting those leaks fixed ;-)
03:20 hmmmm            that's nut
03:20 hmmmm            nuts
03:20 hmmmm            4am is my absolute limit
03:20 sapier1          once uppon a time I went to bed as sun rose :-) nowadays I try to get to bed befor dawn
03:21 sapier1          funny thing is I can't cleanup sky without crashing minetest don't know how this is linked to irrlicht
03:21 hmmmm            why'd you change all the i=0; != blah.size()s to iterators
03:21 hmmmm            we avoid iterators
03:22 hmmmm            see code style guidelines
03:22 hmmmm            also, crap, i did forget to clean up the ores
03:22 sapier1          iterators are best way to get everything for std structs I've had to fix too many off by one bugs to avoid them where possible
03:23 hmmmm            none of my stuff has off by one bugs though
03:23 sapier1          and [] gives strange results sometimes too
03:23 hmmmm            ?
03:23 hmmmm            what do you mean
03:23 hmmmm            tell me about that tomorrow though
03:23 hmmmm            go on
03:23 sapier1          [ is c++ and can mean be almost everything
03:24 sapier1          from array index to hash selection operator :-)
03:24 hmmmm            [] is still 100% predictable
03:25 sapier1          any program is 100% predictable ;-) but not 100% visible at first glance ;-)
03:26 sapier1          btw != operator in for loops is dangerous ... it may not matter in small loops but if theres someone incrementing to high you'll run forever
03:26 hmmmm            yes... if your variable somehow gets incremented when it wasn't supposed to
03:26 hmmmm            which is enough of a bug in its own right
03:26 hmmmm            if it somehow skips your end condition, there's still a pretty huge problem that you're at least aware of now
03:27 sapier1          true but consequences can easyly be avoided
03:27 hmmmm            you should get some sleep
03:27 Exio             delete in C++ is free in C, no?
03:27 sapier1          most likely you wont notice someone running over end of loop
03:27 hmmmm            exio, almost
03:27 Exio             (as new == malloc) but with a C++ behavior
03:27 Exio             ok
03:28 hmmmm            there are other things that happen aside from memory allocation
03:28 sapier1          quite but constructors/destructors are called too
03:28 Exio             yep, that is what i meant with "C++ behavior" :P
03:28 sapier1          btw if someone wants to fix the other gui files ;-) I'd not be mean about it ;-)
03:29 sapier1          and now have a good day ;-)
03:34 kahrl            erm why are you guys removing the texture atlas?
03:34 hmmmm            he came from the grave to defend his invention
03:35 kahrl            heh :P but it wasn't my invention
03:35 hmmmm            i personally wouldn't like to see the texture atlas completely removed, that's sapier's idea, but it was everybody's idea to have it disabled by default as it is often problematic and doesn't improve much
03:36 kahrl            there are obviously bugs in the texture atlas code somewhere
03:36 hmmmm            celeron did say that the texture atlas is pretty useless though
03:36 hmmmm            i would rather see it fixed than destroyed
03:39 kahrl            maybe take hints from the map generator about which nodes to include in the atlas?
03:39 kahrl            since right now it goes through all the nodes by ID
03:40 kahrl            then it might be not as useless
03:41 hmmmm            how often is the atlas built?
03:42 kahrl            twice, it seems
03:42 kahrl            once when Client is created and once in afterContentReceived
03:43 hmmmm            i'm honestly not too familiar with what the problems were, i was never too involved with the texture atlas things.  forgive me if i sound ignorant
03:43 hmmmm            it seems like a recipie for running out of video memory though
03:44 kahrl            how so?
03:44 hmmmm            lots of servers have ridiculous amounts of nodes, like ~2600
03:44 kahrl            its size is limited to 1024x1024 or some number like that
03:44 hmmmm            and then to make things worse, they use high resolution texture packs
03:44 hmmmm            ah
03:44 hmmmm            let me see that
03:45 kahrl            which means it isn't really useful if you use HD texture packs, but it should help with 16px ones
03:45 hmmmm            looks more like 256x256
03:46 kahrl            core::dimension2d<u32> atlas_dim(2048,2048);
03:47 hmmmm            i see
03:47 hmmmm            what's with the column_width?
03:47 kahrl            not sure
03:47 kahrl            oh, the atlas_dim was changed in 1b078efd5fe3a80011339f90df06e5f55fdbadf3
03:48 VanessaE         the prodigal son returns, heh
03:49 kahrl            I've been here all the time :P
03:49 kahrl            watching you
03:50 kahrl            that didn't sound creepy at all did it
03:50 hmmmm            do you watch through loggingbot_ or something?
03:50 VanessaE         heh
03:50 kahrl            yeah on irc.minetest.ru
03:51 Exio             ehm
03:51 Exio             i will stop talking in the channel, i think
03:52 kahrl            ?
03:52 VanessaE         Exio: big brother is watching you.
03:52 Exio             exactly!
03:53 Exio             kahrl: just a joke as response to the "I've been here all the time watching you"
03:53 hmmmm            texture atlas with 16x16 textures actually decreases performance for me slightly (about 1-2 fps with the same exact scene, nothing significant though)
03:53 hmmmm            it's probably more effective with certain gpus
03:53 kahrl            okay wasn't sure if joking :P
03:55 kahrl            interesting, I'll check the performance gains (losses) too
03:56 hmmmm            the nodes placed by the map generator (the most common nodes) are nearly always the first nodes registered, so they would certainly be found in the atlas
03:56 hmmmm            i'm not really sure if it needs a hint
03:56 kahrl            true
03:56 jojoa1997|Tablet Mauvebic
03:57 hmmmm            i'm not a 3d graphics person at all, so i really don't know... what could be used to profile graphics performance?
04:00 kahrl            haven't really used anything but drawtime and FPS so I don't know
04:00 Exio             drawtime, not FPS
04:01 Exio             the difference of FPS can be very high but the drawtime is "what really matters"
04:01 hmmmm            graphically, i'm not sure if minetest is doing too well
04:01 hmmmm            we don't use many effects, yet struggle to get a decent framerate on even modern-ish (but low end) GPUs
04:02 hmmmm            clearly it was optimized for intel 945gm graphics, but that probably had much different bottlenecks than say, my nvidia 8400gs
04:03 hmmmm            it'd be nice to have some mechanism to set different performance profiles based on which gpu is present
04:06 kahrl            is there a way to tell with irrlicht?
04:07 hmmmm            on initialization, the GPU name string is printed out so i'm fairly sure there is
04:08 Exio             what type of "performance boost" can be done to a special gpu?
04:09 kahrl            IVideoDriver::getVendorInfo()
04:09 hmmmm            excellent, thanks
04:10 hmmmm            exio, more fps by doing things the way that works best for that certain class of GPUs
04:15 ds-2k            For the texture atlas, http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-02-27#i_2900808 has some information about issues (6d facedir breaks)
04:18 kahrl            thanks, I didn't know the rendering is now sorted by material
04:19 kahrl            that does make the atlas somewhat useless
04:21 RealBadAngel     atlas goes nuts when tile vertices are rotated
04:23 kahrl            that could be worked around I guess, but now I'm not sure if it's needed
04:23 Exio             for what is the texture atlas exactly?
04:24 kahrl            switching textures during rendering is a slow operation
04:24 kahrl            the atlas makes it so most things use the same texture
04:24 Exio             hm
04:25 Exio             i just tried here (nvidia gt 610 - x6 6100), 10~ FPS less with the atlas enabled (actually, that is very low in terms of drawtime)
04:26 Exio             from 180-250~ to 160-235~
04:26 hmmmm            what sort of FPS do you get in general with that setup, and with what resolution and other options?
04:26 Exio             nearly 1920x1080, default outside that
04:26 hmmmm            crazy
04:26 hmmmm            40fps here with an 8400gs
04:26 Exio             what can kill my fps is the AA
04:27 Exio             fsaa = 32
04:27 hmmmm            disabled transparent leaves, 1280x1024
04:27 Exio             check how many fps you get, 21 here when looking at the sky
04:27 Exio             (400~ when looking at the sky without fsaa)
04:37 Exio             for being real, i don't see a real difference between 100 or 120 FPS to 500
04:38 hmmmm            should probably enable VSync
04:38 hmmmm            you'll save a whole bunch of electricity
04:38 Exio             nah, my gpu is the cheaper i was able to buy
04:38 Exio             it consumes like 20 W or less, (iirc)
04:39 hmmmm            CPU too, your CPU does things ever frame too
04:39 Exio             and really, fps_limit, i normally have vsync or some fps limit
04:39 Exio             well, talking about that, yes
04:39 hmmmm            those are pretty incredible numbers, i must say
04:39 Exio             i should try to overclock the cpu / gpu and then try to run minetest
04:39 hmmmm            what OS are you using?
04:39 Exio             debian6 actually
04:40 hmmmm            310 or 314 drivers?
04:40 hmmmm            313 rather
04:40 Exio             i'll install gentoo in some weeks when i'm able to get a proper network
04:40 Exio             | NVIDIA-SMI 4.310.32   Driver Version: 310.32         |
04:40 Exio             hmmmm: ^ here :P
04:40 hmmmm            i am still on 304 actually, i noticed there was a bit of a regression with 310 when i tried them on my laptop
04:42 Exio             the only game where i had "fps problems" was in minecraft, actually
04:42 hmmmm            heh, when i get a job i intend on getting a real graphics card, something like a 660Ti or 760Ti, or whatever's a generaton old by that time.  i can only imagine the FPS i'd get then
04:42 Exio             i don't see buying a "very high end" gpu something what is worth it unless you really need it
04:43 Exio             a mid-end (not low end like this) will work very well
04:43 Exio             hmmmm: this gpu is already old, ddr3, most actual gpu are ddr5 and so
04:43 hmmmm            *60Ti isn't really high end, the *50 and lower is sort of a crappy price/performance point
04:43 Exio             isn't the Ti = titan?
04:43 hmmmm            no
04:44 Exio             ah
04:44 hmmmm            it's just a designation given to a trimmed-down version of that series' 70
04:44 hmmmm            despite what the naming says, it has more in common with a 670 than it does a 660
04:45 Exio             the specs of my 350ARS (70~ USD) GPU http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop/geforce-gt-610/specifications
04:45 hmmmm            yikes, that was $70?
04:45 hmmmm            that's overpaying by US standards
04:46 Exio             argentina prices
04:46 hmmmm            that sucks
04:46 Exio             my mobo (m5a99x) was 1050 ARS == 200~ USD
04:47 Exio             GeForce GTX660 TI Ddr5 2 Gb Pci-E
04:47 Exio             hmmmm: this gpu?
04:47 hmmmm            yeah
04:47 hmmmm            well, that's just what i'm planning on
04:47 hmmmm            i'd prefer the generation after Kepler if possible
04:47 Exio             2845 ARS / 550 USD
04:48 hmmmm            now that's crazy
04:48 hmmmm            it's less than half as much here
04:48 Exio             yep, :P
04:48 Exio             most of stuff here is like that
04:49 hmmmm            sometimes i wonder if i can start a business where i sell computer hardware in other countries for much lower prices
04:49 hmmmm            customs tax and other things can't possible be _that_ much
04:49 Exio             lol
04:49 hmmmm            possibly*
04:49 VanessaE         hmmmm: fwiw, I can't even do a consistent 60 fps on my badass system, with the default textures.
04:50 hmmmm            what is your video card?  you never mentioned that
04:50 VanessaE         (scrolled back)
04:50 VanessaE         an AMD/ATI HD6870 with 1GB VRAM and the Catalyst drivers.
04:50 hmmmm            sounds like there's something wrong for you
04:50 VanessaE         yup, always has been.
04:50 hmmmm            maybe your AA settings are too high
04:51 VanessaE         in 16px mode, I turn off all those settings.
04:51 Exio             other price if you wonder of my actual and "new" setup: 164 usd for the cpu bulldozer x6 6100
04:51 hmmmm            bulldozer :/
04:51 Exio             VanessaE: can you check in your minetest.conf if you have any "fsaa"?
04:51 VanessaE         Exio: I do not run in fullscreen.
04:51 VanessaE         (and no, I don't have)
04:52 Exio             hmmmm: what's up by the bulldozer?
04:52 Exio             VanessaE: fsaa != fullscreen :P
04:52 VanessaE         Exio: the fs part stands for full screen :_)
04:52 VanessaE         :)
04:52 Exio             hehe
04:52 VanessaE         (fsaa does nothing if you're not running fullscreen mode)
04:53 hmmmm            exio, bulldozer has rather poor performance compared to Intel cpus of the same generation
04:53 Exio             hmmmm: yep, that is like always, intel always "win" in that thing
04:54 Exio             but, i don't buy intel because price and because i can buy a decent mobo "today" and in some years just upgrade the cpu
04:54 hmmmm            bulldozer is slower than its predecessor in many benchmarks too
04:54 Exio             phenom x6, yes, it was a "unfinished" if we can say gen
04:54 hmmmm            oh my
04:54 hmmmm            we should probably talk about this in #minetest
04:55 Exio             haha
04:55 hmmmm            i just realized we're spamming up the dev channel
06:27 hmmmm            i feel like i'm repeating myself by saying this, but turning presdigitator away was such a great move
06:28 hmmmm            actually this same thought pops up into my mind whenever i go read his code
06:28 hmmmm            he does the exact opposite of the entire style of minetest, the coding style, the constructs, everything
06:30 hmmmm            and he was so totally wrong about his object model making things easier to use... nobody could possibly be more wrong about anything, ever
06:30 hmmmm            this is horrible
06:30 hmmmm            may god help his employers.
06:33 * VanessaE       hands hmmmm some bread and mayo to go with the aforementioned spam ;-)
06:41 hmmmm            also, he doesn't even implement the two "more difficult" ways of modulating noise with noise, the number of octaves and spread factors
06:41 hmmmm            :/
06:42 hmmmm            so his entirely new noise.cpp was just basically what we already had with everything renamed, a completely different object model, and implementations of simplex and improved perlin noise that we could've gotten from a sample implementation off the internet
06:43 hmmmm            ...there was no real value to this contribution at all
06:49 VanessaE         for celeron55 -->  http://ifunny.mobi/#IJ3uoo8J
06:49 VanessaE         :D
07:25 hmmmm            there's vanessa being random again
07:26 VanessaE         :P
07:27 Exio             bad
11:09 qwook            hello
13:10 sapier           if anyone is so addicted to texture atlas I'll leave it in there .. it's not much of a difference as it's only a single function ;-)
13:10 sapier           and two loops :-)
13:44 sapier           grrr ... is there any reason for SourceAtlasPointer not being a pointer but a struct object?
13:48 hmmmm            probably not
13:49 hmmmm            how does this terrain make you feel?
13:49 hmmmm            http://ompldr.org/vaHlkMg
13:49 sapier           ok its a index/link to somethin within atlas ... don't know how to name it correct but "pointer" is somehow missleading in c/c++
13:49 sapier           wow
13:49 sapier           looks great
13:50 hmmmm            "looka great"?
13:50 hmmmm            looks*
13:50 hmmmm            that's just two noises
13:50 sapier           after removing all of those bogus memory leaks I may have identified those ones who might be the big ones
13:50 hmmmm            what were they
13:51 sapier           of course node type variation is a little bit small but I guess this is a minor problem
13:52 sapier           it's where we expected them on texture download I just don't fully understand why there is memory lost ... what valgrind shows might be only top of ice as those are references to irrlicht structures ... but I'm not quite sure
13:53 hmmmm            hmmm
13:53 sapier           maybe it's even related to localy overriding textures ... testing is a little bit time consuming with minetest running in valgrind ;)
13:58 sapier           btw I've got 1 random leak within sqlite and another one within irrlicht shaders left I can't find out why they happen
14:03 hmmmm            you know, valgrind isn't always accurate
14:03 hmmmm            it could just be wrong
14:03 sapier           maybe but by now it was very accurate
14:04 hmmmm            how do you know it's a memory leak?
14:05 sapier           memory allocated but not feed is per definition a memory leak :) and it's quite easy to detect so I do believe in valgrinds abilities to detect this
14:05 hmmmm            well
14:05 hmmmm            could be something that the sqlite people just couldn't avoid
14:05 hmmmm            *shrug*
14:05 hmmmm            http://www.zimg.eu/i/3476640221
14:06 sapier           maybe that's why I don't really bother about this one
14:06 sapier           interesting ... imho a little bit to many small rivers
14:06 hmmmm            that's because of log()
14:07 hmmmm            i need to add a curve to it so it doesn't hit a negative number all the time
14:07 sapier           I'm more concerned about the shader leak ... it's small but I don't know how many data is hidden behind it
14:08 sapier           as long as data is held within irrlicht data structures it's not lost (according to valgrind) but of course it may not be accessible by minetest
14:11 sapier           did you ever search for "tilt" in google?
14:13 hmmmm            erm, no
14:13 hmmmm            oh yeah it'll tilt your screen
14:13 hmmmm            almost forgot about that
14:15 sapier           btw we're missing some easter eggs within minetest ;-)
14:15 celeron55        i once had planned that minetest should work so that it would run the menu using an irrlicht software device and then open a new irrlicht device with acceleration; then when that is closed, all textures and stuff related to it will be removed by irrlicht
14:16 celeron55        quite an oldskool way to do it, but it would work
14:16 celeron55        of course now that the menu has clouds and whatever, it's less of an alternative
14:16 sapier           yes but I should be fixable without this too I already managed to fix most problems on shutdown/logoff
14:17 sapier           I don't lose memory now when connecting to server without local textures (in terms of valgrind memory loss) ... can't tell if there's memory burried within irrlicht by now
14:21 celeron55        irrlicht caches all kinds of things
14:22 sapier           I know but as far as I understand as soon as reference count is zero it's deleted
14:23 celeron55        not for everything i think; but i guess you can find that out
14:23 sapier           and most of the memory leaks haven't even been within irrlicht ... by number most common reason for memory leaks was gettext
14:23 celeron55        that's just real memory leaks
14:23 celeron55        valgrind will be completely happy with irrlicht keeping unnecessary caches
14:23 sapier           yes
14:24 celeron55        and that'll be like 1000x more than anything else can possibly be
14:24 sapier           but valgrind can tell you if you're loosing references to irrlicht data instead of freeing it
14:24 celeron55        that applies only to losing reference counted data by forgetting to count it to zero
14:25 celeron55        it doesn't apply to caches that irrlicht properly manages (without freeing)
14:26 Nore_            I have an idea for infinite maps.
14:26 sapier           yes ... but it's a good point to start with as soon as minetest itself is clean irrlicht internal glitches aren't burried below thousands of errors
14:26 celeron55        i think you should start by finding everything in IVideoDriver that is related to clearing caches
14:26 Nore_            It's Irrlicht that causes the limit no?
14:26 sapier           I assume it's your memory that causes some limits ;-)
14:27 Nore_            about the limit of map coordinates
14:27 celeron55        Nore_: first make a youtube video of you waking from 0 to 31000
14:27 celeron55        walking*
14:27 celeron55        then we can talk
14:27 Nore_            but some servers have a big map
14:28 Nore_            they are limited by coordinates
14:28 Nore_            so if we substa
14:28 proller          .. using indev magpen, with hi mountains at 10000
14:28 ShadowNinja      I know that has happened on redcrabs server
14:28 Nore_            so if we substracted a number from the coordinates
14:28 ShadowNinja      but verticaly
14:29 Nore_            so that Irrlicht has no coordinate too big, it should work, no?
14:29 sapier           the 31k is due to coordinates being 16 bits for performance reasons (at least as far as I know)
14:29 Jordach          or just made a long float
14:29 Nore_            isn't it irrlicht internal reasons?
14:29 celeron55        it is not a matter of absolute limits in numbers; it is a limit on float precision
14:30 Nore_            and if we used doubles?
14:30 celeron55        irrlicht does not support doubles for where minetest would require to accurately render further than roughly +-30000 things (it becomes terribly imprecise there already)
14:31 Nore_            yes, but for irrlicht, we could substact enough to get something less than 1000
14:31 celeron55        then you need more precision and you have the exact same result
14:31 celeron55        absolute floating point precision is exactly correlated to how large the number is
14:32 Nore_            minetest could handle doubles, and we give floats to irrlicht after having substracted a big number to get coordinates +-1000
14:32 Nore_            Minetest could then have bigger maps
14:32 celeron55        so you are telling us to rebuilt the world geometry using an offset when the player moves further?
14:32 celeron55        rebuild*
14:33 celeron55        quite much work for no actual benefit
14:34 Nore_            is it that complicated to shift the coordinates only for one client?
14:34 celeron55        also, 16bit coordinates allow certain kinds of very useful things, like hashing v3s16 into one lua number (which supports 52 bits of exact integers or whatever)
14:34 celeron55        and they are integral to the map format
14:35 Nore_            so maps will ever be limited to +-32000?
14:36 rarkenin         What about scaling the scene down?
14:36 sapier           unless someone adds another level of indirection this is most likely to be true
14:36 celeron55        rarkenin: 17:31:24 < celeron55> absolute floating point precision is exactly correlated to how large the number is
14:36 celeron55        you gain exactly nothing by doing that
14:36 sapier           what exactly would be benefit of having bigger maps?
14:37 rarkenin         And having multiple scenes swapped in/out was a no-no?
14:37 Nore_            some servers than are running since a long time are out of surface
14:37 celeron55        Nore_: show us one
14:37 rarkenin         What about having the player stationary in the center, then moving the mesh aroound the player.
14:38 rarkenin         So any mesh generation and mesh-sending-to-Irrlicht occurs near 0,0,0 in Irrlicht space.
14:38 sapier           rarkenin that doesn't fix the coordinate problem
14:38 Nore_            ok... some servers that are running since a long time could be out of surface space
14:38 Nore_            rarkenin: I had the same idea, but there are other problems such as map format
14:39 rarkenin         sapier: Minetest uses whatever longer format it needs internally, but then what it sends to Irrlicht is all within the draw range, which is hopefully much less than 15000
14:39 celeron55        Nore_: do you understand how large a fully surface-generated minetest world is?
14:39 PilzAdam         Id like to have an option for smaller maps, like 1000x1000x1000
14:39 sapier           btw you shouldn't forget how crucial coordinates are, if you need to transform them by an arbitrary complex mechanism this will hav impact on performance ... and I guess this wouldn't be minor
14:39 rarkenin         What about generating multiple surface levels?
14:39 PilzAdam         the mapgen could generate to 1200 or so, so you dont see an edge
14:39 PilzAdam         but you cant walk further
14:40 celeron55        Nore_: it will take roughly 1 TERAbyte in compressed format; you couldn't fill it with content even if you paid people to try
14:40 rarkenin         So vertically it's like air-air-air-dirt/water/surface-stone-stone-stone-bedrock-air-air-air-surface features
14:40 ShadowNinja      PilzAdam: there is a map generation limit in constants.cpp iirc
14:40 PilzAdam         yea, but I want a player walk limit
14:40 Nore_            you are probably right...
14:41 rarkenin         celeron55: 1 TB if the entire 3d space was visited. The problem lies in that the surface is much more desired than 2000 below sea level
14:41 rarkenin         well, you can change the data types where position is stored and recompile irrlicht
14:41 celeron55        rarkenin: the whole 3D space is 15TB
14:42 celeron55        well actually, i overestimated the surface height probably; but on the other hand i have no idea how much space a piece of map actually takes
14:42 celeron55        (only have some rough memories from years ago)
14:42 rarkenin         Yeah, but it's still a good chunk of height. From -2000 to 2000 is a TB.
14:43 rarkenin         Just how painful would it be to refactor all of Irricht's doubles to quad-precision floats?
14:43 celeron55        in any case, nobody is interested to do anything you are talking about
14:43 sapier           it's already painfull to refactor thoughtless use of new :-)
14:43 celeron55        it's a terrible amount of work and complicates the codebase
14:44 celeron55        every core developer would hate anyone who would do that
14:44 rarkenin         Ah, I see.
14:44 hmmmm            there is no benefit at all to adding more range
14:44 hmmmm            it will never be done, ever in minetest
14:44 sapier           maybe some sort of multiple maps within a single server could be done
14:44 hmmmm            if you want that to happen, you're going to have to fork minetest, do it yourself, and then convince everybody who currently uses minetest that your fork is so much better
14:44 sapier           so once you reach the edge of a map you continue on another one ;-)
14:44 celeron55        a thing which *could* be done is dividing the vertical space to multiple surfaces
14:45 celeron55        it's mainly a mapgen problem, maybe a bit of a lighting one too (but not major)
14:45 sapier           yes another possible solution ... this would require pilzadams movement limits too
14:46 celeron55        not really; what's the problem of climbing to the bottom of the upper world? :P
14:46 hmmmm            hey buttholes, before you start deciding what to do with the vertical space, i'll have you know that i'm using that for hell and sky biomes
14:46 rarkenin         The problem is figuring out the topology of the world.
14:46 hmmmm            stop ruining my plans
14:46 hmmmm            ;-;
14:46 celeron55        but really, i suggest just not caring
14:47 sapier           I remeber that ancient picture where a farmer is looking through sky-sphere to se what's behind
14:47 celeron55        it is only an imagined problem
14:47 celeron55        we have real problems too
14:47 Nore_            in fact, the actual problem is the file size limit, no?
14:47 sapier           true ... like memory getting lost everywhere ;-)
14:47 hmmmm            i want to not save mapblocks if nothing has been modified since generation
14:48 Nore_            I have seen that sqlite couldn't handle files bigger than 4GB
14:48 hmmmm            that alone should massively cut down on space consumption, but then again, break things like minetestmapper
14:49 proller          sky test already on my very-dev server, can try "Sky hardcore" in list
14:49 proller          spawn at 30000 at float lands
14:49 Nore_            If you did that, you could even stone only nodes that have changed since mapgen
14:50 celeron55        hmmmm: maybe minetest should include a mapper in itself
14:50 hmmmm            yeah
14:50 celeron55        minetestserver --run-mapper map.png
14:50 proller          +1
14:50 proller          but with height param
14:51 Nore_            moreover, I think someone has rewritten minetestmapper in C++
14:51 hmmmm            that kind of reminds me of my early map preview idea that i was going to do
14:51 celeron55        Nore_: it's probably not useful as it doesn't use irrlicht nor minetest's internal map handling systems
14:51 sapier           hmm combinin this with a canvas to be used from lua we could even have a working map ;-)
14:51 celeron55        Nore_: but dunno; he who tries will find out
14:53 celeron55        but once again, it is definitely a thing that will be included upstream if somebody does it well
15:00 ds-2k            For multiple maps on one server, Jeija has a branch with reconnect commands: https://github.com/Jeija/minetest/tree/rejoin
15:01 sapier           yes but reconnect is quite difficult to manage if you want to avoid passwords being useless
15:04 Calinou          sapier: why?
15:05 sapier           normaly you don't save passwords after sending them to server for security reasons so a reconnect would require a different way to decide if client really is who it pretends to be
15:05 sapier           but as long as password transfer isn't encrypted this most likely is of no relevance
15:06 sapier           LEAK SUMMARY:
15:06 sapier           ==20363==    definitely lost: 672 bytes in 6 blocks
15:06 sapier           after 4 reconnects with 64px textures
15:07 sapier           and those 6 blocks are burried somewhere within shader code
15:35 proller          hmmmm, new flags use -        flags = ["absheight"],      ? im now making flag for spring
15:35 hmmmm            erm
15:35 hmmmm            obviously water springs shouldn't be an ore flag
15:35 hmmmm            there's a better way to do this
15:36 proller          how better ?
15:36 proller          special flag ?
15:36 hmmmm            no, in the settings like before
15:36 hmmmm            except
15:36 hmmmm            we need to figure out how to read the mapgen parameters from lua
15:37 hmmmm            that's really the problem
15:37 hmmmm            i'll figure something out
15:37 proller          in wich settings ?
15:38 hmmmm            the map metadata settings
15:42 hmmmm            honestly, i think (especially for right now) it'd be best to use the regular minetest.conf settings to decide if you register underground springs as ores though
15:42 proller          but somewhere must be flag for setting param2=128 (on ore gen), and general flag for enabling springs (in map data)
15:42 hmmmm            oh right i forgot that
15:43 hmmmm            instead of just a nodename, i'll take in a node structure
15:43 hmmmm            so you'd be able to do ore = {name="water_source", param2=0xF0}
15:44 hmmmm            hmmm
15:44 * proller        want 8)
15:44 hmmmm            this has more use than setting levels for finite water
15:44 * hmmmm          is thinking of stars
15:45 jojoa1997|Tablet can we use ore generation function in mods
15:45 proller          i want make leveled snow
15:45 hmmmm            jojoa, that's the whole point...
15:46 jojoa1997|Tablet is there a branhc that has some features not in dev
15:46 jojoa1997|Tablet like gui bar api
15:46 jojoa1997|Tablet or something
15:46 jojoa1997|Tablet maybe rivers?
15:47 hmmmm            yes, i can tell you want new features
15:47 hmmmm            new features need to be made first
15:48 jojoa1997|Tablet i read the todo in dev wiki and thought it said some features were made but not yet merged on basis of being not good
15:48 hmmmm            http://www.zimg.eu/i/3476640221
15:48 Exio             there is a stuff like the mapgen v7 what was "wrote" just as POC before, (iirc for hmmmm code)
15:48 Exio             (for defining the biomes and so on)
15:48 hmmmm            how's that for rivers
15:49 jojoa1997|Tablet oh rivers
15:49 jojoa1997|Tablet good
15:49 hmmmm            i just did that an hour ago
15:49 jojoa1997|Tablet hmmmm that is actually really good
15:49 jojoa1997|Tablet awesome
15:49 jojoa1997|Tablet also has there been code made for water above 0
15:49 hmmmm            no
15:50 hmmmm            you probably don't realize how difficult that is to control
15:50 hmmmm            i tried something like that with water as ore above ground replacing dirt_with_grass, and it just made flooded, messy hills
15:51 jojoa1997|Tablet what about
15:51 jojoa1997|Tablet a node that digs a hole in ground and places water
15:52 hmmmm            i guess you can do that if you'd like
15:53 hmmmm            right now, in Lua
15:53 hmmmm            randomly select a spot and then dig a hole deep enough so that its height is lower than all the surrounding nodes, then fill it with water up to the lowest node on its edge
15:55 proller          or make seasons&rain&snow , ant it fill all holes
15:55 hmmmm            well, that could work too, but he wants it generated that way
15:57 sapier           wow I just managed to reduce memory leak from 1.2k textures per cycle to 3 :-)
15:57 * hmmmm          claps
15:57 sapier           I think it's time to commit
15:58 hmmmm            gggggbbvbvb
15:58 sapier           finaly it was quite obvious ... texture source is cleaning up source images but forgets to tell irrlicht about it
15:59 hmmmm            0.4.6 is being released on wednesday
15:59 hmmmm            should this wait?
15:59 PilzAdam         yes, definetly
15:59 PilzAdam         also, why isnt the feature freeze in the channel topic?
15:59 sapier           still somewhere is still lots of memory lost
16:00 hmmmm            because i don't have ops
16:00 PilzAdam         me neither
16:00 PilzAdam         core devs should be ops in this channel
16:01 sapier           no it aaint after 10 start's I've lost only 30mb instead of 60mb per cycle as before
16:01 sapier           should I read atlas in order to get this merged to 0.4.6?
16:02 hmmmm            i don't think it's a good idea to do anything else that doesn't absolutely need to be done this soon
16:02 PilzAdam         we dont merge anything in except the new translations until 0.4.6
16:02 hmmmm            you were losing 60mb per cycle, really?
16:02 hmmmm            i was only losing less than 1mb according to htop anyway
16:02 sapier           ok so first 0.4.6 version will be much more stable than latest stable :-) quite funny
16:03 sapier           depends on your texture pack
16:03 sapier           64px on vanessaes server is about 60 mb (maybe more I haven't tested without any cleanul)
16:03 sapier           512px it's about 1gb per cycle
16:04 hmmmm            this will be a very welcome fix
16:06 sapier           I know ;-) hopfully this will fix inventory image corruption too
16:08 PilzAdam         if the corruption appears at first startup?
16:12 sapier           memory handling was so bad I wouldn't even say it'd not be messed up on first start
16:14 sapier           but in this very special case I wouldn't expect this to be fixed
16:22 sapier           https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/587 plz review
16:23 PilzAdam         commit messages should start with a capital letter
16:23 Exio             wasn't the texture atlas "not going" to get removed?
16:24 sapier           if you want it back I'll add it back but I don't think it's usefull at all
16:24 Exio             PilzAdam: i don't see why that "should be" enforced
16:25 Exio             sapier: i, personally, don't care about the atlas, but there was some discussion yesterday at night about that
16:25 Exio             (well, night here :P)
16:26 sapier           If anyone would be so carefully in cleaning up allocated memory as pilzadam is with cas sensitiveness ... I wouldn't have had to fix hundreds of bugs prior detecting the real one :-)
16:26 PilzAdam         sapier, wtf https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commit/7a51620cda2acb3a4b38e1a0c7a94b88ae720a46#L14L372
16:26 sapier           gettext is allocating memory thus spilling it in this case
16:26 sapier           within add_key its allocated a second time ;-)
16:27 sapier           if you prefere the previous unreadable alignment I'll revert back to it too :-)
16:28 PilzAdam         are the strings translated somewere else?
16:28 sapier           yes add_key uses wgettext on given parameters again
16:29 PilzAdam         its hard to create the correct .po file for this
16:29 sapier           signature of add_key expects a std::string so memory allocated by gettext is lost
16:29 sapier           I won't fix i18n this can be done by someone else ;-)
16:31 PilzAdam         it would be better for your current translation system to call gettext() in in init_keys() instead of add_key
16:32 sapier           no it wouldn't as I would have to add a free to any of those lines
16:32 sapier           ok a delete[]
16:33 PilzAdam         updatedpo.sh doesnt find the strings if you call it in add_key()
16:33 sapier           oh ... didn't know about that ... why?
16:34 sapier           hmm because it's a parameter used for wget
16:35 PilzAdam         it uses xgettext to get get the strings and writes it into minetest.pot
16:36 sapier           i hope this is the only place where add_key is used as I need to change it's signature to get this working in a sane was
16:36 sapier           way
17:07 sapier           ok I've fixed it I hope updatepo.sh is working again
17:09 sapier           hmm ... I wouldn't even have needed the additional variables now ...
17:11 Exio             well, if MT were C i'd have said "use macros" :P
17:11 Exio             was*
17:12 sapier           ok new version removes temp variables again
17:13 sapier           I do use macros in c++ too ;-)
17:13 sapier           for some things you can't beat them
17:14 Exio             i tend to overused macros
17:14 Exio             s/used/use/
17:15 sapier           have a look at the scriptapi cleanup I even use macros to create simple prototype classes ;-)
17:16 sapier           there are two different kinds of functions within lua api (modapi part) global functions
17:16 sapier           and functions only valid for objects
17:17 sapier           later one are e.g objectref functions or luaref functions ... those are added to scriptapi by macro
17:18 Zamolxis         hello earthlings
17:18 Zamolxis         how's things?
17:24 hmmmm            sapier, what's with changing NULL to 0?
17:24 hmmmm            don't do that
17:25 sapier           why? NULL is just a relict of old days when different compilers did use different representation for memory and data?
17:25 Kray             NULL is semantic
17:25 hmmmm            NULL isn't exactly 0
17:25 sapier           it is
17:25 hmmmm            maybe in certain implementations of C++ it is
17:26 hmmmm            it's not universally 0 though
17:26 hmmmm            besides, it breaks the coding guidelines
17:26 hmmmm            and it implies that whatever you're assigning it to is actually an integer
17:26 hmmmm            there are so many reasons why
17:26 sapier           NULL isn't even standard
17:26 hmmmm            it IS
17:26 hmmmm            read the standard
17:26 hmmmm            maybe it's not K&R standard but
17:27 hmmmm            we don't use K&R C
17:28 sapier           even stroustrup suggests not using NULL
17:28 hmmmm            screw soupstrup, he's the one who made the abomination of C++
17:28 hmmmm            his opinion is pretty much invalid
17:28 Kray             C++ should use nullptr
17:28 sapier           still NULL is compiler dependent
17:29 sapier           it's not a standard definition
17:29 sapier           for gcc/g++ NULL is exactly 0
17:30 hmmmm            sapier
17:30 sapier           but if you persist on using oldfashioned error prone defines I'll switch back to it
17:30 hmmmm            C++ standard 1998
17:30 hmmmm            page 353, chapter 18, language support library
17:30 Kray             the fuck :D
17:30 sapier           1998 ... that's been c++ experimental time
17:30 hmmmm            18.1.4, "The macro NULL is an implementation-defined C++ null pointer constant in this International Standard (4.10)"
17:30 Kray             sapier: NULL is _semantic_
17:31 Kray             null pointer MIGHT be same as 0, depending on implementation
17:31 Kray             but NULL is always null pointer
17:31 hmmmm            there is one thing that makes NULL standard though, the integer representation of NULL must equate to 0
17:31 hmmmm            but
17:31 sapier           NULL is defined so often that it's impossible to predict what it is
17:31 hmmmm            now you have to use an implicit cast
17:32 Zamolxis         Hey there! do you think it would cause any problems if I removed the separators between inventory grid elements?
17:32 hmmmm            also this would screw up overloaded functions
17:32 hmmmm            how would it decide whether or not to call foo(void *) or foo(int)
17:32 hmmmm            bottom line, it's not right!
17:32 hmmmm            use NULL pleaseeeeee
17:32 sapier           where do I have to use a cast?
17:32 hmmmm            nowhere, that's why it's implicit
17:33 sapier           first of all I'll have a look at this standard ...
17:34 sapier           btw 1998 c++ standard is already withdrawn
17:34 sapier           http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=25845
17:35 hmmmm            hint, all of them are withdrawn when a new standard is out
17:35 hmmmm            you don't see us rewriting everything for C++0x because that's the new current standard
17:35 hmmmm            http://ompldr.org/vaHlncQ
17:35 sapier           still I need to find a version of this standard to look for it
17:36 sapier           ahh
17:36 hmmmm            i don't like it when people follow new standards, because it screws up compatibility for everything that isn't fully up-to-date
17:37 hmmmm            like i can't even compile C99 on my HP 9000 because its cc is old
17:37 hmmmm            that crap shouldn't happen
17:37 hmmmm            it should just work in as many places as possible
17:38 sapier           wait ... this standard exatly tells what I say NULL is an >>>"implementation-defined"<<< C++ ...
17:38 sapier           so meanin if using a different compiler NULL may be something completely different
17:38 hmmmm            zamolxis, you can do that, but you need to understand that others probably won't like your modification
17:38 kahrl            oh dang, I noticed a long while ago that delete[] solidity; was missing but didn't immediately fix it and then kinda lost track of it
17:39 hmmmm            sapier, implementation defined means that different compilers may compile it differently
17:39 hmmmm            doesn't mean the usage is different
17:39 hmmmm            if that's what implementation defined meant, then the majority of our software would be completely unusable
17:39 sapier           if you really want to ensure it's a null pointer we would have to use "null"
17:41 sapier           but I'll change it anyway as I'm sure I won't persuade you and it's a waste of time trying
17:41 hmmmm            :>
17:41 sapier           if this causes portability errors YOU'll be the one to fix it ;-P
17:41 hmmmm            i will gladly
17:42 sapier           and of course track it down too
17:42 Zamolxis         hmmmm, thanks for the reply; I was planning in making the grid separation through an image background, so you don't get your item put back if you accidentaly click in between grid spots; I suppose a drop overlay would be nice too
17:42 sapier           I assume that'll be the much more time consuming task
17:43 kahrl            I haven't followed this conversation but the standard says NULL is implementation defined, but it also says it is a null pointer constant
17:44 sapier           to me "implementation defined" is a keyword to avoid things as far as possible
17:45 kahrl            using it in assignment to a pointer or as an argument (except in variable argument lists) is safe
17:45 kahrl            that's how I read it, anyway
17:48 sapier           yes unless you add some header redefining it to someting different (which is not prohibited by standard)
17:48 kahrl            you could also #define if while
17:48 Exio             the result binary is implementation defined, don't use them
17:48 sapier           but this isn't allowed by standard
17:49 kahrl            it's perfectly allowed
17:49 sapier           no it isn't ... you can do it but that doesn't mean anything in c ;-)
17:50 kahrl            it doesn't make sense to do this in a program (except for ioccc :P) but it is allowed by the standard
17:52 sapier           as you can see both of us do understand different things while reading same standard ... should be reason enough to not use things not beeing defined without any room for interpretation ;-)
17:53 sapier           still it's already fixed
17:54 sapier           anyone interested in searching the last 3 textures geting lost while client restart?
17:56 sapier           VanessaE can you check if this fixes the memory leak for you too?
17:57 hmmmm            zamolxis, that sounds pretty good, i know there would be a lot of users interested in that (not me to be honest, i don't have much of an opinion on what goes on in formspec menus)
17:57 VanessaE         sapier: I won't be doing any updates or builds today.  :-)
17:57 sapier           it's client only ;-)
17:57 hmmmm            :-(
17:58 VanessaE         hmmmm: I like that! -> http://ompldr.org/vaHlkMg
17:58 sapier           ok it's for server too but updating client should be enough to fix it
17:58 hmmmm            oh yeah, it's gotten a lot better since then too
17:58 Exio             why VanessaE? why not today?
17:58 Exio             waiting for the java port? :P
17:58 hmmmm            i am going to try to make ridges on those mountains with purely 2d noise
17:59 VanessaE         I agree with sapier on this one, too many bodies of water/rivers.  http://www.zimg.eu/i/3476640221
18:01 hmmmm            that's obviously just some terrain that was generated, that can easily be fixed by enlarging the spread factor
18:01 hmmmm            it's the features that are important
18:03 kahrl            if you remove the texture atlas can't you remove a lot of the tile handling code? like removing pos, size and tiled fields in AtlasPointer
18:03 kahrl            or just replace AtlasPointer with texture id entirely
18:03 sapier           good idea
18:03 sapier           no
18:04 sapier           atlas pointer contains source image too
18:04 sapier           but maybe this isn't required anymore
18:04 kahrl            isn't that the SourceAtlasPointer?
18:04 kahrl            I haven't looked at this code in a while
18:05 hmmmm            hmmm
18:05 hmmmm            i have an idea
18:06 hmmmm            i store a height map in mapgen v7, what if i were to pass that as the result along with the modified vmanip and whatever else, and a different component of minetest can directly add that to a mapper
18:06 sapier           it's an image created by some irrlicht function it doesn't even contain the texture pointer
18:07 hmmmm            and that way it can be super fast to get those maps that you hold in your hand like in minecraft
18:15 PilzAdam         why does minetest remove the "_game" at the end of game IDs?
18:15 PilzAdam         that seems inconsistent to me
18:15 PilzAdam         and it isnt documented
18:15 hmmmm            you think this a game?
18:16 Exio             games/minetest_game/
18:16 kahrl            hmmmm: wouldn't that make maps useless in custom maps? or make maps fail to notice custom built stuff?
18:16 kahrl            uh, double meaning of map there
18:16 kahrl            s/m maps/m worlds
18:17 hmmmm            three meanings of maps so far:  map, as in geographical map to tell where something is, a map, as in the world that minetest happens on, and map, as in a 2d (x, y)->value array
18:17 hmmmm            but, to answer the question
18:17 kahrl            also a scheme function
18:17 hmmmm            they don't put peoples' houses on maps in real life!
18:18 rarkenin         Yeah, they do. http://maps.google.com
18:18 Exio             kahrl: scheme? :D
18:18 kahrl            scheme. :D
18:18 kahrl            mandatory in freshman year here (at least used to be)
18:18 VanessaE         Exio: why not today?  for the same reason the java port was announced.  :-)
18:19 hmmmm            oh gosh, MIT!?
18:19 * hmmmm          is jealous
18:19 kahrl            heh, almost
18:19 Exio             i had to learn racket for a course i took, i fell in love with racket and functional programming and so :P
18:19 rarkenin         almost?
18:20 kahrl            a couple thousand kilometers (or miles) away
18:20 VanessaE         there, now I'm caught up.  good afternoon all.
18:20 hmmmm            somewhere in germany?
18:20 kahrl            yeah
18:21 sapier           me too
18:21 hmmmm            i think like 66% of people involved with minetest are german
18:21 sapier           seams to be
18:21 kahrl            I noticed that too
18:22 Exio             what about latin america?
18:22 hmmmm            not as much
18:22 Exio             :P i'm from argentina, kaeza uruguay and who more?
18:22 Exio             who too * or whatever
18:22 sapier           maybe some of the remaining 34 % ;-)
18:23 hmmmm            you know, i'm looking at more output of the logarithmic river terrain, and i don't think i like it
18:24 hmmmm            tends to make lots of closed loops and just single windy paths
18:24 hmmmm            lightning fractal would probably work better
18:30 hmmmm            http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/breaking-richard-stallman-free-software-pioneer-dies/story?id=18855110
18:31 PilzAdam         <hmmmm> i think like 66% of people involved with minetest are german <- yes, me and Jeija too
18:33 sapier           hmm rba celeron kharl exio vanessae and hmmm are not german are they?
18:33 PilzAdam         rba is polish, but lived in berlin for 5 years
18:33 VanessaE         rba is polish, c55 is finn, kahrl I dunno, I'm in the US
18:33 hmmmm            kahrl is german, celeron is finnish, RBA is polish, exio is argentinian, i'm from the US too
18:34 PilzAdam         xyz is russian
18:34 sapier           so 66% might be a quite good guess
18:34 hmmmm            90% of statistics are made up on the spot
18:36 sapier           did you know gtk theming engine is quite dangerous?
18:36 hmmmm            knives are also dangerous
18:37 sapier           yea but if you cut your finger you'll notice immediatly ... gtk-themes give just strange errors hard to track down to it's origin
18:38 hmmmm            that makes it buggy, not really dangerous...
18:38 sapier           ok not quite correct word :)
18:38 VanessaE         hmmmm: well didn't you know?  just the wrong combination of gtk code will cause factory robots to gain sentience, and next thing you know we have a Terminator apocalypse on our hands.
18:39 sapier           I recently managed to track down my eclipse performance problems to a kde style gtk theme
18:40 Exio             VanessaE: sssh, don't tell about that or i will need to share my bunker
18:41 hmmmm            vanessa, i think he's referring to more like a uriel-type dangerous
18:45 VanessaE         heh
18:57 VanessaE         here's a question:  Is there any particular, realistic reason that the engine still cares what characters are in a mod foldername?
18:57 VanessaE         I mean, can we not disassociate the folder name from the mod name somehow?
18:59 VanessaE         (perhaps with a "provides.txt" or something inside the folder - if this is found, read it and disregard the foldername)
19:01 BlockMen         hello
19:03 ShadowNinja      a chanop: shouldn't the feature freeze message be prepended to the topic?
19:03 BlockMen         just a quick question: who is part core-development-team?
19:04 BlockMen         for the new homepage im creating an overview of the community
19:04 PilzAdam         https://github.com/minetest?tab=members
19:04 BlockMen         so just these 7 ppl?
19:04 PilzAdam         https://www.ohloh.net/p/minetest-c55
19:04 Exio             the *core* team
19:05 Exio             people who did anything, is other thing
19:05 ShadowNinja      there are core, active, and past contributors
19:05 Exio             meh, i need to take english classes :P
19:05 Exio             ShadowNinja: and casual contributors!
19:05 PilzAdam         BlockMen, look at the credits tab of 0.4.6
19:05 PilzAdam         or take this list: https://www.ohloh.net/p/minetest-c55/contributors?query=&sort=commits
19:06 BlockMen         credits tab, that is good
19:06 PilzAdam         do you have the latest version?
19:06 PilzAdam         (of minetest)
19:07 ShadowNinja      meaning latest git, not stable
19:07 hmmmm            tada http://ompldr.org/vaHlpMg
19:07 PilzAdam         if not then here is the list in the code: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/guiMainMenu.cpp#L49
19:08 BlockMen         thx, was just looking at git ;)
19:08 hmmmm            maybe a stream, not really a river
19:08 hmmmm            but
19:08 hmmmm            proof of concept
19:09 PilzAdam         hmmmm, https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/2126bf06d20f6cb5bb6a0dbe728923b228d5c5cb
19:09 hmmmm            looks good i guess
19:09 PilzAdam         I think this needs to be done before 0.4.6 and the name of minetest_game should be changed
19:09 VanessaE         hmmmm: nice
19:09 PilzAdam         otherwise people think that its the "main" game
19:10 hmmmm            oh come on :/
19:10 hmmmm            no more changes
19:10 hmmmm            it's not that big of a deal
19:10 Exio             that "big" change of minetest_game should be done in 0.4.6 imo
19:10 Exio             with luajit, leveldb, etc
19:10 VanessaE         Exio: you mean 0.4.7?
19:11 Exio             err, what is the actual release?
19:11 Exio             ah, yes, 0.4.7
19:11 VanessaE         we're working to release 0.4.6
19:11 VanessaE         well, they are.  I'm just sitting on the sidelines :P
19:11 hmmmm            nonsense, you're an active contributor :)
19:12 VanessaE         hmmmm: actively contributing bullshit ideas anyway :D
19:12 hmmmm            that is, you have at least two commits present in git from within the last 6 months
19:12 VanessaE         true true, I'm just kidding anyways
19:12 PilzAdam         you keep telling us what mods are "standard", thats enough to be contributer here
19:12 hmmmm            STANDARD
19:13 hmmmm            i need to eat lunch
19:13 hmmmm            three hours late.  whatever, bbl
19:13 Exio             i'm the one who doesn't do anything useful and says bullshit VanessaE
19:13 Exio             you at least play minetest! :P
19:15 BlockMen         everybody fine with that? http://i.imgur.com/0tfruy5.png
19:16 PilzAdam         c55 is a core dev too
19:16 PilzAdam         and why have you mixed up the order?
19:17 BlockMen         i thought that is obvious
19:17 ShadowNinja      s/developer/developers/
19:17 BlockMen         but ok, then double mentioned
19:17 PilzAdam         no, just delete the "Creator:" completly
19:17 BlockMen         alphabetical
19:18 BlockMen         * of the nicks
19:18 ShadowNinja      will you include active/past contributors?
19:18 PilzAdam         just keep the same order as in the credits tab
19:19 BlockMen         ShadowNinja, yes
19:19 BlockMen         i will include whole credits
19:20 ShadowNinja      and are the avatars linked from github?
19:20 PilzAdam         *gravatar
19:20 ShadowNinja      ah, right
19:25 proller          BlockMen, im not very big commiter to be in game, and its my ugliest photo 8)
19:27 BlockMen         proller, should i use the github avatar instead?
19:28 proller          its better
19:28 proller          and imho sorting must be by blame lines
19:30 BlockMen         k, will change. and idk on what the current sorting is based, but it is now like in the credits
19:31 Exio             in doubt, l33tness :D
19:33 BlockMen         http://i.imgur.com/EE6YZS7.png
19:34 PilzAdam         s/developer/developers
19:41 BlockMen         k
19:46 BlockMen         does someone know the github of 0gb.us?
19:46 BlockMen         nvm
20:12 ShadowNinja      celeron55: /msg chanserv topicprepend #minetest-dev **FEATURE-FREEZE FOR 0.4.6 IN EFFECT**?
20:12 Exio             i think /msg chanserv flags #minetest-dev hmmmm OP (and same with PilzAdam and people with pussh access)
20:13 PilzAdam         +1
20:13 Exio             (or +ovirt [what is imo ok for ops])
20:13 ShadowNinja      yes, that too
20:15 jojoa1997|Tablet i know it is feature freeze but
20:15 jojoa1997|Tablet is anyone working on moving heads
20:15 Exio             heads?
20:15 Exio             what?
20:15 jojoa1997|Tablet your head moves where you look
20:15 Exio             ah
20:16 Exio             no idea, i'll take a look at the player/camera stuff because i want a way to see your own legs (like RE now)
20:16 ShadowNinja      ah, kaeza did, it used crazy network and was very laggy
20:16 Exio             yes, i want things what i saw in a FPS in MT
20:16 Exio             what does anyone thing about that? :P
20:25 BlockMen         celeron55, I have finished the new homepage so far and sent the pull request
20:25 BlockMen         https://github.com/celeron55/minetest.net_php/pull/4
20:25 PilzAdam         no newline at the end of file
20:25 proller          BlockMen, can you make servers tab?
20:25 PilzAdam         (support.php)
20:26 PilzAdam         (and many others too)
20:26 proller          or maybe embed servers script to main page (need voting here)
20:26 BlockMen         PilzAdam, i think that is an notepad error...
20:26 sfan5            will my pull get merged or declined?
20:27 BlockMen         proller, if celeron55 is ok with the current i had the idea to make a "Game" or "Play tab
20:27 PilzAdam         sfan5, hm?
20:27 sfan5            PilzAdam: i think you know which pull I mean
20:27 BlockMen         with submenus like games, servers, etcs
20:27 PilzAdam         sfan5, get_version()?
20:28 sfan5            PilzAdam: yup
20:29 PilzAdam         Im still against it
20:31 sfan5            i know, what about the other people?
20:32 Exio             i actually see it very useful (in the way it is actually)
20:32 jojoa1997|Tablet sfan what your pull request do?
20:33 Exio             https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/580
20:33 ShadowNinja      I like it, but not for what it was intended for, checking for functionality shouldn't be done by version
20:35 BlockMen         ok, im off
20:35 BlockMen         bye everyone
22:12 rarkenin         Can lua minetest.get_ban_description(username) be called on a player that hasn't been banned yet?