Time Nick Message 11:52 proller /announce 11:52 proller ups sorry 13:50 * rubenwardy has no idea how to make the grey bar at the top: http://ompldr.org/vaGl2ZA/mtext_mockup1.png 13:57 rubenwardy (ping: celeron55) 14:09 thexyz looks really weird 14:10 rubenwardy the mock up? 14:10 rubenwardy this is what I have done so far: http://multa.bugs3.com/minetest/forum/ 14:10 thexyz grey doesn't fit there 14:11 rubenwardy no it does not 14:12 rubenwardy do you prefer http://multa.bugs3.com/minetest/forum/ or http://ompldr.org/vaGl2ZA/mtext_mockup1.png 14:13 rubenwardy (thexyz) 14:25 thexyz why not add another bar under the logo? 14:25 thexyz not inside it 14:26 thexyz I'm not sure whether this conversation is appropriate for -dev 14:26 celeron55 the gradients of current mt-ext look horrible at least 14:26 celeron55 and boxes everywhere 14:27 celeron55 i at least approve website development in here 14:29 rubenwardy Should I delete the gradients, of make them softer? 14:29 celeron55 delete 14:30 celeron55 or, well 14:30 celeron55 i don't think rubenwardy can ever design anything out of his head that would aesthetically please me at all 14:30 celeron55 so i don't really know what to do with these discussions :P 14:30 rubenwardy gradients removed 14:31 celeron55 i'm a bad artist too, but "trying everything" sometimes tends to gain sufficient results... 14:32 celeron55 where are all the web designers 14:32 celeron55 i guess they don't play sandbox games with bad graphics 14:34 rubenwardy what about this? 14:35 rubenwardy ah 14:35 rubenwardy working 14:35 celeron55 let me quote the AVGN Game Glitches episode: "Not gonna work. Not gonna work. What time is it? Not gonna work o'clock!" 14:36 rubenwardy I have aligned to right 14:40 rubenwardy (2:30:12 PM) celeron55: i don't think rubenwardy can... 14:40 rubenwardy I doesn't help that you are fairly "fussy" about what you want 14:44 rubenwardy The reason I made the side bar, is because it is an effective way to display data on this page: http://multa.bugs3.com/minetest/forum/viewmod.php?id=2 14:45 jin_xi rubenwardy: when scrolling down the carousel thing goes over the top bar 14:45 rubenwardy yeah, I know 14:45 thexyz oh, well 14:46 thexyz you deny everything designers do 14:46 rubenwardy me? 14:46 VanessaE who? 14:47 thexyz c55 does 14:47 thexyz http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-02-19#i_2882565 14:48 rubenwardy You replied to the jungle topic saying: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=71506#p71506 14:48 rubenwardy and this explains it: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=71562#p71562 14:48 rubenwardy (celeron55) 14:49 thexyz they weren't removed just because c55 thought they were boring 14:49 thexyz they weren't readded because of that 14:50 rubenwardy yeah, well I was told that. Sorry. 14:52 rubenwardy thexyz: should I keep the second bar like celeron55 suggested: http://multa.bugs3.com/minetest/forum/index.php 14:52 rubenwardy or should I make it a new full width bar like you said? 14:52 rubenwardy (2:25:04 PM) thexyz: why not add another bar under the logo? 14:52 thexyz no idea 14:52 thexyz but as for now it looks like crap 14:53 rubenwardy celeron55: I am open minded, and I will implement your design to see what it looks like 14:55 rubenwardy I think i have pissed c55 off 14:56 VanessaE celeron55: regarding people re-implementing jungles...well, you can look at the results of moretrees. The jungle biome settings aren't right, but well there they are. 14:56 VanessaE (I know you don't like bas080's mod) 15:12 VanessaE it would be trivial to adjust the biome settings to get the old jungles back via moretrees, but that would probably crowd out the other trees. 15:32 rubenwardy Is this what you had in mind, celeron55? http://multa.bugs3.com/minetest/forum/index.php 15:40 rubenwardy celeron55... 15:40 rubenwardy someone repost this, i think i am on ignore 15:43 rubenwardy (VanessaE) 15:44 VanessaE oh sure, and get him doubly pissed off at me? :-) 15:44 rubenwardy nm then 15:45 VanessaE besides, he reads the logs, too 15:45 celeron55 eh what? i am not allowed to be away? 15:45 celeron55 ... 15:46 celeron55 i think i need to be more away then 15:46 VanessaE celeron55: your timing just sucks :) 15:55 proller celeron55, https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/492 15:58 celeron55 rubenwardy: just do what you can and listen to other people; i really can't give you any magic opinions or solutions 15:59 rubenwardy ok 15:59 rubenwardy thanks 16:00 celeron55 now does somebody find issues in proller's pull request? 16:01 celeron55 i guess the issue of who should be responsible for running the auto-announceable servers.minetest.net should be tacked down 16:02 celeron55 proller: if you're left with the job for now, how long do you expect to stick around providing it? 16:02 VanessaE why aren't we just piping this all through thexyz's server monitoring thing? 16:02 celeron55 or should it be transferred to thexyz or so 16:02 VanessaE this seems like some duplication of effort here 16:03 PilzAdam VanessaE, proller's pull requests makes the things that are done by thexyz currently automatically 16:03 celeron55 i guess thexyz could implement auto-announcements to his service, but i can't force that 16:03 VanessaE PilzAdam: right, I figured that much 16:03 proller celeron55, as necessary 16:03 VanessaE but I mean if thexyz is already running a server that does this job, why should we need a second similar service? could not both functions be combined into one? 16:04 VanessaE (assuming he is up to the task of adding the extra hooks/data storage that would be needed) 16:04 F00 Monitoring page gripe: Why is time little-endian, and why not do ping in ms? 16:05 VanessaE F00: because people think in "it's up x% of the time", not "it took xxxx ms to respond last time it was pinged"? 16:05 VanessaE think of the MT userbase, most folks don't seem to be technically-inclined enough to understand a ping response, specifically whether a given time is good or not. 16:06 F00 Er, it says "ping 0.160" for the sole listed server, that's not uptime 16:06 F00 uptime is next to that 16:06 celeron55 ping response is irrelevant because it's just relative to the master server 16:06 VanessaE F00: what list are you looking at? 16:06 VanessaE http://servers.minetest.ru/ 16:06 VanessaE I see no ping times here. 16:07 F00 servers.minetest.net, the default URL used in proller's current pull request 16:07 VanessaE oh, I'm looking at the one everyone is already using 16:07 proller F00, what is "time little-endian" 16:07 F00 "minutes hours days" rather than "days hours minutes" 16:08 proller http://servers.minetest.net/ 16:08 F00 Also if you're doing fractional hours it seems weird to also do fractional days 16:08 VanessaE proller: he means you should write "1.2d, 5.5h", not "5.5h 1.2d" 16:08 VanessaE (the fractions aside) 16:08 proller there is 2 times 16:08 proller last update and start time 16:08 F00 1.5d 12h == 2 days; 1d 12h = 1.5 days 16:08 VanessaE oh right 16:09 VanessaE then put a slash between them or use separate columns 16:09 F00 Oh. That's two times? 16:09 proller and! server page is like beta and there is what to do 16:09 F00 Yeah, confusing 16:09 VanessaE I read "updated/started" as if they're supposed to be synonyms. 16:09 F00 Aye 16:09 proller slash, ok 16:10 proller and better to delete update time 16:10 proller its useful only for debugging 16:11 celeron55 i'll suggest waiting thexyz's input on this 16:11 VanessaE actually it might be useful for others to see "hrm, this server does not respond... oh, it hasn't announced in several weeks now." 16:11 celeron55 umm what 16:11 F00 If they haven't done anything in 2*default announce delay or something, I'd just delist them 16:12 celeron55 there should be two columns, one for "updated", one for "started" 16:12 celeron55 what kind of nonsense is that what it has now 16:12 celeron55 8D 16:12 VanessaE celeron55: you forgot to call it "random" or "horrible" :-) 16:12 proller VanessaE, server hides after 900s 16:12 proller of inactivity 16:12 F00 That seems adequate 16:12 VanessaE 900s? that's a strange amount of time? 16:13 celeron55 it's a strange amount of time also called 15 minutes 16:13 proller no time_alive => 650, 16:13 proller its 2 lost announces 16:13 proller announces every 300s or 5 min 16:14 VanessaE once an hour or less often is usually considered more appropriate, fyi 16:14 F00 Er, for game servers? Getting a semi-accurate player count is useful, and that can change drastically +/- 60 minutes. 16:14 VanessaE consider the recipient of these announcements, which might perhaps be getting hit hundreds of times every few minutes. this will drive up bandwidth usage, which may be undesirable. 16:15 * Calinou is tempted to tell people to do a master server the sauerbraten way 16:15 Calinou check whether the server is up or not every 60 mins and calculate ping/players in real time or so 16:15 VanessaE then update only when a player joins/leaves, there's no reason for such a frequent "keepalive" announcement 16:15 F00 That can potentially be much more often than every 5 minutes 16:16 celeron55 so let's make some realistic calculations, shall we? 16:16 F00 People have texture issues, get stuck on someone on join, sometimes end up joining and leaving 3-4 times 16:16 celeron55 how large is one announcement, on average? 16:16 VanessaE ok then take an average - if the last announcement was less than 5 minutes ago, withhold it. Otherwise announce it, but don't do periodic "just because I am here" announcements at anything less than 1 hour intervals. 16:17 celeron55 i assume one announcement is about 200 bytes 16:17 celeron55 and i think we can expect an active server count of roughly 100 in the near future 16:17 F00 I see frequent announces as useful because an alarming number of servers are run by people on their home computers and are up/down like crazy 16:17 proller celeron55, may be 1000bytes 16:18 celeron55 proller: what is the average? 16:19 celeron55 1000 bytes is quite a chunk of json, i wouldn't guess it would be that much 16:19 F00 Even if it's a kilobyte, times a hundred servers every five minutes, that's less than a gigabyte per month. 16:21 celeron55 kilobyte once in 5 minutes for 100 servers for a month makes... 860 megabytes per month 16:21 Calinou every 15 minutes then? 16:21 celeron55 and that's a very maxed out estimate 16:21 Calinou 3× less megabytes :P 16:21 F00 servers.minetest.net is hosted by... Hetzner? 16:21 F00 VPS? 16:22 PilzAdam thexyz said minetest.ru has a limit of 10 TB per month 16:22 F00 It looks like Hetzner's bottom-end VPSes include a TB of traffic a month. Their dedicated servers are unmetered 100 Mbps 16:23 celeron55 a gigabyte is pretty close to nothing in terms of hosting 16:23 F00 Aye 16:25 celeron55 we can tune it in the future though - most servers will run on default config anyway 16:25 F00 Also, some people may restart their servers via cronjob or something 16:26 F00 Perhaps it would be good to add a random initial announce delay 16:26 F00 To avoid clumps of servers announcing at roughly the same time 16:26 proller celeron55, announce size can be reduced to 200-400 bytes 16:27 F00 proller: Why set counter to 0.01 instead of just 0 when you're adding dtime to it afterwards? 16:27 proller for first announce 16:27 proller if !counter -> first 16:28 F00 Yes, but it would go from 0 to non-zero because dtime should never be zero unless the game is running faster than float precision 16:28 F00 Either way, it's very minor 16:28 F00 I just dislike random constants 16:28 celeron55 i'd use -1 for a special value of an otherwise positive float 16:29 celeron55 but anyway, i don't care 16:36 F00 Also, as far as traffic on the master server goes, the server announces will likely be greatly outpaced by clients requesting info from it 16:47 proller celeron55, if all counters will be inited to 0.0 and one counter to -1 -> there will be a question 16:47 F00 proller: There is one thing I'm concerned about, namely unscrupulous server owners 16:48 F00 Inflating player count to look more active, etc. 16:48 proller server script support blacklist 16:49 F00 So, just play whack-a-mole and hope the bad server has a static IP? 16:49 proller its possible to ban by regexp 16:49 proller all net 16:50 proller and ipv4 now more and more valuable 16:51 celeron55 actually, that's a real concern, now that you mentioned 16:53 celeron55 how does openttd do it? 16:53 celeron55 i can't even see a "report server" button 16:53 celeron55 i guess people are just nice 16:54 F00 I play a bit of TF2 and there was kind of a scumbag arms race for a while 16:55 F00 Just takes one "entreprenurial" jerk and then you've got dozens of bad servers faking player counts so they can serve ads to people via HTML MOTD 16:55 celeron55 i think we can start without anything, and if it ends up too bad, we'll figure out something 16:55 celeron55 rate limiting per ip should be done though 16:56 celeron55 or something like that 16:56 celeron55 so that flooding the list isn't 100% trivial 16:56 F00 Ooh. 16:56 proller server must reply on his port by udp 16:57 F00 Ah, so when announcing the master server polls back? 16:57 proller yes 16:57 proller and show only pingable 16:57 F00 To what extent? 16:57 F00 Wait wait wait. That's not a good idea, necessarily. 16:59 F00 redcrab.suret.net, perhaps the most popular public server, is run on Amazon EC2 16:59 F00 Which, by default, drops ICMP echoes 17:00 celeron55 UDP != ICMP 17:00 F00 When people say 'ping' I assume ICMP echo. 17:14 rubenwardy Should give version code names: 0.3.1 Dungeon Master 17:14 rubenwardy like Icecream Sandwich 17:14 rubenwardy lol 17:32 proller and https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/482 is good 19:16 sapier1 celeron55 what do you think about implementing security this way: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/495 19:17 VanessaE doserj: your change that added the mod manager broke dependency reporting on failure. can you please fix this? 19:18 doserj VanessaE: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/500 19:18 VanessaE hah! 19:18 VanessaE ok :-) 19:18 doserj :P 19:19 thexyz servers.minetest.net is hosted by me ATM 19:19 doserj VanessaE: If you use the gui, you should never actually have an inconsistent configuration, so I didn't care that much about error reporting... 19:20 VanessaE doserj: I'm used to doing things manually :-) 19:20 sapier1 << normaly punches everyone saying "didn't care ... about error reporting" 19:21 doserj sapier: the error was still reported, but just not in that much detail as before 19:22 sapier not really better ;) 19:59 deivid hi. I'm trying to make the blocks draw partially based on distance, but I don't know how to do it 20:00 deivid currently the renderMap gets all the meshes from the block and draws them 21:21 F00 celeron55: Any further thoughts regarding physics? 21:22 F00 I don't like repeatedly dredging it up, but I'm concerned about the various implementation flaws (flying 10 blocks off the top of ladders, taking 3 or 6 damage when fast-moving downwards in water or on ladders, respectively) 21:22 F00 Makes me wonder whether non-falling vertical inertia is worthwhile 21:27 sapier hmm I've implemented inertia for monorail ... sometimes physicaly correct calculation gives really strange results 21:27 * F00 thinks realism isn't generally a good goal in games 21:28 sapier true as there are some parameters missing for inertion 21:28 sapier you'd need friction as well as air resistance too ... both require parameters generally not available within minetest 21:30 F00 Yeah 21:31 F00 A problem I have with vertical inertia on ladders/etc. is that fall speed can't be predicted 21:32 sapier it's not complicated at all it can even be done in lua but I'm using default values for those parameters ... wich work fine as long as it's a cart moving in air upon tracks 21:32 sapier but as soon as a cart should move e.g. on dirt, stone .. etc it's getting complicated 21:32 sapier it can 21:33 sapier by the way you don't need to do anything special if you change speed by using acceleration 21:33 F00 You can't predict it because of block loading 21:34 sapier ohh so no physical problem but lack of environment information 21:34 F00 After falling 100 nodes, someone might be falling at a speed so slow as to not incur any fall damage, if the block positioning is convenient 21:34 sapier no no thats no problem if you add air resistance max speed is automaticaly limited 21:35 F00 I object to terminal velocity for selfish reasons 21:35 sapier as air resistance results in acceleration against gravity acceleration 21:42 F00 Anyhow, if you had a terminal velocity you'd only be able to estimate the maximum speed for a given fall 21:46 sapier you need speed on collision... why not read it at that moment? 21:56 F00 That's how fall damage works, but you don't take damage when hitting unloaded block edges 21:56 F00 So somebody may be reset an indeterminate number of times 21:56 sapier hmm so problem is blocks not being loaded fast enough 22:03 F00 Yeah, which is more or less unsolvable unless the server and client are able to communicate at very high rates with extremely low latency 22:05 sapier which won't happen ... but damage has to be calculated on server in order to avoid clients cheating so client shouldn't be involved at all 22:10 F00 That would be nasty, though. 22:14 F00 Server-side movement works well in games where the client has the whole map loaded 22:14 F00 It would be goofy to have the client fall off a tall structure, repeatedly get stopped by block loading 22:14 F00 And then instantly die when they finally hit the ground at low speed 22:14 sapier as far as I know atm it's some sort of dual calculation 22:15 sapier client predicts and calculates positions while server sends updates to correct clients prediction errors 22:15 sapier ohhh ok now i understand your problem 22:16 sapier as long as server would be able to load blocks fast enough player most likely wouldn't hit at low speed ... still player would stop in between several times 22:17 F00 It really depends on where the terrain is inside that final block 22:18 sapier yes .. i don't see a solution with current minetest architecture 22:20 F00 Yeah, hence why I'm not fond of inertia when climbing/etc. 22:20 F00 Even with exponential (yay!) deceleration, you still wouldn't be able to stop people at a precise block with ladders/water 22:21 sapier I don't quite understand what inertia has to do with ladders ? 22:23 F00 Prior to the new physics being introduced, ladders stopped you instantly (as did water) with no damage 22:24 F00 Currently, ladders only decel you as fast as you accelerate while falling 22:24 sapier when you drop on them? 22:24 F00 Yeah. 22:24 sapier ok now i understand 22:25 F00 So falling 50 nodes = you need 50 nodes of ladders to stop 22:25 sapier a interesting problem indeed 23:00 hmmmm what is the whole thing about jungles 23:05 VanessaE beats me, I thought I had the concept pretty well covered in moretrees (especially after today's update) 23:10 doserj F00: I don't have a problem with the player flying up from ladders at the speed they climb them, that is just basic physics at work. But the fast move speed should be reduced on ladders (and in water), that would alleviate the problem a bit. (I think fast move speed is too fast overall, anyways...). I agree that falling speed should be slowed down more on ladders (similar to in water?) 23:21 F00 To me, having fast move climbing equate to probable fall damage when you reach the top is... bad 23:22 VanessaE agreed. 23:23 F00 I see fast move climbing as... normal climbing, but faster 23:23 F00 I.e. hypothetical hands and legs moving up one rung at a time 23:23 F00 (Even though the climb rate is completely smooth) 23:23 VanessaE the way I look at it, you can climb as fast as your muscles allow on a real ladder, but no matter how fast you're going, you still have to pull yourself up with eqach rung 23:23 VanessaE each* 23:23 VanessaE so you shouldn't overshoot the top by more than a meter or two imho 23:24 VanessaE right, what you said :D 23:34 F00 I also think that way on the way down. 23:34 VanessaE well, 23:35 F00 I.e. you stop as soon as you grab a rung 23:35 VanessaE on the way down from a ladder, you can just slide along the rails 23:35 VanessaE if you're going fast enough, you have no chance of grabbing a rung - it'll just pull out of your hand from your inertia 23:36 F00 For me that's a collision between convenience and reality where the former wins out 23:37 VanessaE of course. 23:37 VanessaE just pointing it out 23:37 F00 The issue with not being able to stop immediately (wihout sneak and a ledge, anyhow, which is another bug) is that you can't stop at a particular place in a tall structure 23:37 F00 Have to hold fast move all the way and wiggle up and down to get where you want 23:37 F00 And it's active, rather than passive 23:37 VanessaE in the game, if you're falling fast enough, I think it should take a lot of ladders or water to stop you, but not as much as it might take in real life 23:38 VanessaE 20 ladders for terminal velocity seems about right 23:38 VanessaE (sicne you fall at something like 200 blocks/second at terminal velocity) 23:38 F00 There is no terminal velocity 23:38 VanessaE yes there is. 23:38 VanessaE sorta 23:38 VanessaE thing is the mapgen usually can't keep up at those speeds 23:39 VanessaE but it maxes out at about that amount 23:39 F00 I'm fairly sure it doesn't unless the new physics added that 23:39 VanessaE I've tested it before. 23:40 F00 From what I recall, you end up getting so fast that FPS drops to <1 23:40 VanessaE back when we had the stresstest server at minetest.ru:30001, there was a hole called "Hell's Jump" that went down 7km. Jump down that and well, you get the idea 23:40 F00 With that (collision detection?) vs your CPU speed being the limiting factor 23:40 VanessaE Once it got past around 3 or 4km deep, your falling speed maxed out 23:42 VanessaE of course technically, even if your falling speed just keeps increasing, assuming no map loader lag, you still have a maximum speed you can possibly hit, by virtue of the map having a ~62000 node height. 23:45 F00 I think you were observing something else there. The gravity is just: speed.Y -= 9.81 * BS * dtime_part * 2; 23:46 F00 No clamping from what I can see 23:46 VanessaE interesting 23:47 VanessaE I wonder where the effect was coming from then 23:51 VanessaE in that case, it should be clamped to something reasonable then