Time  Nick        Message
01:58 celeron55   http://paste.dy.fi/EDT
01:58 celeron55   i have created a beast
02:01 VanessaE    this is test-loading old worlds?
02:01 VanessaE    looks good to me, I think :-)
02:02 VanessaE    *looks at clock*...  why are you still up?
02:02 celeron55   because.
02:08 celeron55   https://github.com/celeron55/minetest-worldtest
02:08 celeron55   it's a fucking WORK OF ART!
02:09 celeron55   it just needs 0.3 to be added
02:10 celeron55   somebody could look at the patches in rules.d/$tag/ and make the same thing happen
02:10 VanessaE    this is genius.  Nice.
02:13 celeron55   the patches are supposed to modify the minetest server to do exactly three things: 1) load all the MapBlocks touching (0,0,0), 2) after loading, read nodes and check if they are correctly set; print a line starting with GOOD: and a line starting with BAD: to a new file worldtest_result.txt for each test, 3) set the nodes in the certain formation
02:13 celeron55   and 4) quit
02:14 celeron55   s/and a line/or a line/
02:33 * VanessaE  grumbles at a minecrafter in -delta.
02:51 VanessaE    (one of those "c55 needs to implement feature X" to make the game better, but without being able to say why, other than that he wants it)
02:54 celeron55   i fully acknowledge minetest looks like shit compared to today's standards
02:54 celeron55   but today's standards don't run on eg. my laptop
02:55 VanessaE    heh, this guy wants more than "doesn'
02:56 VanessaE    heh, this guy wants more than "doesn't look like shit".  But what he wants is stupid like particles by default (why?), some vignette thing, mountains that 'glow' (huh?)
02:56 VanessaE    stuff that even I would agree is mostly useless (and I use the particles mod, go figure)
02:56 celeron55   anything visual is kind of useless
02:56 VanessaE    exactly.
02:57 VanessaE    eye candy is nice but not if it gets in the way of the game actually working.
03:03 VanessaE    either way, I've asked him repeatedly to post these things on github.  he insists it's pointless because he assumes you will react negatively.
03:06 VanessaE    what should I tell him, to that end?
03:09 celeron55   according to minetest-worldtest, darkrose's node timers and 16-bit content parameters can load data saved by itself and data saved by previous versions
03:09 celeron55   dunno if this really proves anything though, i don't know if anything that might break anything is used
03:12 VanessaE    well you kinda said it already, it proves it can reload what it saves :-)
03:13 VanessaE    which, really, is as important as any other part of the program
03:15 celeron55   ehm
03:16 celeron55   well yes, but it tries to save and load only a small subset of what it should be able to
03:16 VanessaE    true.
03:16 celeron55   also, that test does not extend to the earliest version that needs to be supported
03:16 celeron55   that is, 0.3.x
03:16 VanessaE    consider this an "initial smoke test".
03:16 VanessaE    right, I assumed so
03:17 celeron55   by a quick look at the code it looks like it will explode horribly when stuff made by 0.3 is fed to it 8)
03:18 VanessaE    haha
03:18 VanessaE    wouldn't be the first time that's happened ;-)
03:20 VanessaE    "Yeah, officer.  I tried to load an 0.3 map with this newer game and pray to the FSM everything went nuts.  Oh the humanity - mapblocks all over the road, nodes hanging from trees...  I mean hell, look at my car - it's permanently covered in desert stone now."
03:20 VanessaE    :D
03:33 VanessaE    . o O ( Jeez, what do I have to do to get ol' sourpuss here to laugh? )
03:59 celeron55   https://github.com/celeron55/minetest-worldtest
03:59 celeron55   pushed working rule for 0.3.1
03:59 VanessaE    cool
03:59 celeron55   http://paste.dy.fi/EMy
04:00 celeron55   and it catched what i saw in the code 8)
04:03 celeron55   hmm... some pre-sqlite 0.2 would be interesting
04:03 celeron55   8D
04:03 celeron55   i bet that wouldn't work
04:03 celeron55   the code is there, but it's likely broken
04:57 celeron55   == master returns all good for world generated by 0.3.1
04:59 VanessaE    yay \o/ :-)
05:11 celeron55   http://c55.me/random/2012-07/minetest-worldtest-testcase.png
05:11 celeron55   that is the test case
05:13 celeron55   3x5x3 box made of nyan cats, having a torch at the top, a glass block at the middle and air at the bottom, in such a way that the air is at 0,0,0; and there is a sign at the black node at 0,0,2
05:13 celeron55   the text of the sign is "Foo Bar"
05:14 VanessaE    looks good
05:29 celeron55   i... guess i can push this upstream
05:30 VanessaE    careful,
05:30 celeron55   it's network incompatible with 0.4.1 and 0.4.1 cannot open it's save files
05:30 VanessaE    this is darkrose's 16-bitr node ID part......right, you already got that in mind then
05:31 celeron55   anyone who wants to just play the game can just use the stable branch
05:31 VanessaE    right
05:31 VanessaE    is there any way at all to work in network compat at least?
05:32 celeron55   no
05:33 VanessaE    too bad.  well if that'
05:33 celeron55   there is always a way but this time it consists of too much duct tape
05:33 VanessaE    that's how it has to be, so be it.
05:49 celeron55   ->
10:13 Nemo08      hi!
10:13 VanessaE    hi
10:14 darkrose    stfu
10:14 VanessaE    this channel is strictly for the purpose of discussing the minetest engine core, general chit-chat is frowned upon strongly here.
10:19 Nemo08      hm
15:22 sfan5       i fixed my pull request: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/163#issuecomment-7176669
15:46 celeron55   i made this http://paste.dy.fi/67m
15:46 celeron55   but i am not sure if it is good
15:46 celeron55   i was thinking of the way the snow mod needs to rework the place where nodes actually go when placed on snow
15:48 celeron55   an another solution would be a group or a field that just says "place inside of me"; that the client could also predict
15:49 jordach     well, thinking about what you just said: buildable_to = true does this i think?
15:49 celeron55   ...NO.
15:50 celeron55   as if i would be doing anything like this if the functionality existed
15:51 celeron55   i feel 90% desire to kick you becaue of that; anyone who knows anything about minetest can directly say it's not what this is about
15:51 celeron55   +s
16:02 celeron55   ...it kind of _maybe_ could be made to work that way, but i don't know how large a bunch of things it would affect
16:06 celeron55   that is, if a node has buildable_to = true and a node is placed on it, the node will go in place of the node rather than on the side that was clicked (buildable_to is set basically for air, water and stuff like that; the problem here is that snow is buildable_to *but also* pointable)
16:06 celeron55   it could work, but then does there exist a callback for eg. custom drops or effects in that situation
16:10 celeron55   if the minetest.register_on_placenode callback had the old node as the fourth parameter, that would suit the need... kind of
16:13 celeron55   i think that actually is the way to go
17:46 celeron55   done
20:23 celeron55   oh god
20:23 celeron55   i am making a list of useful mods
20:23 VanessaE    uh oh
20:23 VanessaE    define "useful" :-)
20:23 celeron55   there are things from like half a year ago that still work perfectly 8)
20:27 VanessaE    using with you likely define as "useful", and given what features you've recently added, I would suggest animatedtorches, nature_pack, doorsplus, drippingwater, junglegrass (unless you re-implement jungle biomes), locked_sign, and stairsplus
20:27 VanessaE    all are lightweight, and don't seem to affect performace.
20:27 VanessaE    +n
20:28 VanessaE    unifieddyes would be in that list too but we've already covered that for now.
20:35 celeron55   the main thing that comes to mind is that what kind of a beast this'd make if all of these were put together
20:35 VanessaE    well,
20:36 VanessaE    I run all of those plus a bunch more, and the only time I see a performance drop is one of them runs some big CPU-hog of an ABM
20:37 VanessaE    but I'm not exactly running low-end hardware, so you'd obviously have to evaluate it on your laptop also
20:39 VanessaE    particles is nice also, but I have no idea what kind of performance impact that one will have on low-end hardware.  on my machine, no impact that I can see.
20:39 VanessaE    (yes, that one's less than 'useful')
20:40 celeron55   my laptop is basically a 15" sized netbook with a 1600x1200 pixel screen
20:40 celeron55   the GPU seriously struggles to run minetest 8)
20:40 VanessaE    16x12?  damn.  beats the pathetic little thing I have :-)
20:40 VanessaE    (I want to say 1320x768?)
20:41 celeron55   i had 1024x768, but upgraded a few weeks ago
20:41 celeron55   i actually bought a version of this same laptop with an ATI GPU, but it made too much heat and fan noise
20:41 celeron55   so i just threw the screen to this old one
20:41 VanessaE    that said, I run a pair of 1280x1024 displays off an ATI HD6870 video card on my desktop machine, so it's no slouch ;-)
20:43 VanessaE    re: the mods you're looking into...  what's your immediate goal with them?
20:43 VanessaE    (versus the long-term goal of minetest in general)
20:44 celeron55   is there an up-to-date trapdoor anywhere
20:44 celeron55   or hatch
20:44 celeron55   whatever
20:45 celeron55   there is this, but it's... a fairly bit old http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=609
20:45 celeron55   -ly
20:46 VanessaE    hm, a hatch...good question
20:46 celeron55   http://minetest.net/play.php
20:46 celeron55   i probably need to rework the layout a bit 8)
20:46 VanessaE    my tex pack supports that mod but I haven't actually tried to use it
20:47 VanessaE    let's see what happens....
20:48 VanessaE    well 0.4.1 doesn't crash with it anyway...
20:49 VanessaE    eh, it sorta works
20:50 VanessaE    I can craft a hatch, and place it, but on punch it just rises or lowers, but doesn't actually flip open/closed like it's supposed to.
20:50 VanessaE    and I can't dig it up because it moves out of the way
20:51 VanessaE    so that's a no-go for now
20:51 celeron55   you probably can't dig it anyway, because it uses the pre-group digging properties
20:51 VanessaE    ah, that figures
20:52 celeron55   otherwise i'd think it would work
20:52 celeron55   well, whatever
20:52 VanessaE    wait, I didn't try this patch.
20:54 VanessaE    er, that probably won't help.
20:54 VanessaE    but I'll try anyway, I have nothing better to do ;-)
20:55 VanessaE    haha.  definitely not
20:56 VanessaE    screw it.  :-)
20:56 jordach     celeron55, can you remove my Wool and Panes please?
20:57 celeron55   is there any particular reason? (it doesn't matter, but i am interested)
20:58 jordach     yes, i have stopped supporting them, since the dyes i used were common blocks, and not a de facto mod standard
20:58 celeron55   we don't have a de facto mod standard for dyes
20:58 celeron55   well, maybe de facto
20:58 jordach     replace with this http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2373
20:59 jordach     thank you
20:59 * VanessaE  gives celeron55 oxygen
21:02 celeron55   i don't like the looks of those at all
21:04 celeron55   also, i don't think i will support the full unified dyes mod
21:04 VanessaE    :(
21:04 jordach     my mod supports all of the colours con-currently
21:04 celeron55   yes and that is why it sucks
21:05 celeron55   better have few good looking ones than 100 bad looking
21:05 jordach     ah
21:05 jordach     blame gentextures.sh
21:05 celeron55   it just feels so mechanically made, and there is nothing to help it
21:06 VanessaE    he used an older version of the gentextures script that lacked the tinted overlay method
21:08 VanessaE    http://i.imgur.com/0U8YA.png
21:08 VanessaE    c55, is that any better?  ^^
21:08 celeron55   horrible.
21:08 VanessaE    :(
21:09 celeron55   i see i need to make the dye mod next
21:09 VanessaE    noooooooooo
21:09 jordach     good.
21:09 jordach     im for this
21:09 jordach     16 colours at best
21:09 celeron55   jordach better keep keep his wool and panes around, i will use the exact same colors, with NO extra shades of any kind
21:10 jordach     ok ok
21:10 jordach     you win
21:10 jordach     however, i might make it so unified dyes and your dyes work in sync
21:11 VanessaE    c55: well at least do everyone a favor?  use the same modname, so I can just rework mine to act as an 'extension' pack or something
21:11 VanessaE    that way existing mods don't break
21:12 celeron55   no, it will be just "dyes", because if i will have an included dye mod for all of the known future, nothing else suffices
21:14 jordach     are we going to use the colours from my old wool mod?
21:14 celeron55   i don't see any reason to not do that
21:15 jordach     because i noticed most servers use the old wool mod (16)
21:16 VanessaE    celeron55: I think implementing your own is a bad idea to be honest
21:16 celeron55   jordach: ?
21:17 jordach     most servers today run a very old version of my wool, most notably, the 16 colour version.
21:17 celeron55   can you link to it?
21:17 jordach     yes sure
21:18 jordach     http://www.mediafire.com/?d9nzvn12xmf2i2r
21:18 jordach     and complimentary image http://i.imgur.com/OmlIN.png
21:21 celeron55   hmm, those colors seem a bit random
21:23 celeron55   jordach: in how wide use you think that is?
21:24 jordach     mainstream servers
21:24 jordach     menche
21:24 jordach     redcrab 0.4.1
21:24 jordach     pixel art
21:25 jordach     http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=29195#p29195
21:25 jordach     (modified version)
21:25 jordach     sdzens server
21:26 celeron55   how much do you think the lesser coloured version is used?
21:27 jordach     11 none from what ive seen
21:27 jordach     and sdzen pushes 16 hard http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1540/screenshot113753755.png
21:28 celeron55   i don't see why i wouldn't be going with that then
21:29 celeron55   the colors are a bit oddly chosen but i guess it just adds character to the game 8)
21:29 VanessaE    ...
21:29 jordach     i attempted to bring (some) sort of balance
21:30 jordach     and the before wool http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1012
21:31 celeron55   there is no widely used dye mod, right?
21:31 jordach     id say 50/50
21:31 VanessaE    I'd say half the mods that need dyes use mine, the others implement their own system
21:32 celeron55   hmm
21:32 VanessaE    but mine's fairly new so it hasn't had time to gain a lot of traction yet
21:32 celeron55   i recall there is a flowers mod somewhere
21:32 jordach     flowers mod is around, broken and slow (spawning)
21:32 VanessaE    yes, http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=518
21:33 VanessaE    nature_pack supplies a purportedly upgraded version of it
21:33 jordach     yes it does
21:58 VanessaE    celeron55: I feel the need to point out two things.  1, and I've said this before: you should not limit others' creativity.  2, if you provide only a few colors, you are limiting other modders' choices to just those, even if other colors are needed.
21:59 VanessaE    whereas if you provide a lot of colors, modders can choose exactly the ones they need, even if they only end up using half a dozen unique colored objects in their mod.
21:59 VanessaE    (the existence of a wide palette does not imply the need to utilse every color provided by it)
21:59 VanessaE    +i
22:00 celeron55   having a million colors makes it impossible for players to just randomly mix them together and then expect to be able to color stuff with them
22:00 VanessaE    eh?
22:00 VanessaE    that makes no sense
22:00 jordach     i agree
22:01 jordach     a million colours can give choice, but mixing any two out of that million might now have a result
22:01 jordach     s/now/not
22:01 VanessaE    that might be true if the mod didn't already cover that issue
22:02 jordach     and theres the problem with yours
22:02 jordach     MC has these limits
22:02 VanessaE    unifieddyes already accounts for mixing colors
22:02 celeron55   you can make an extended dyes mod for those who need it
22:02 celeron55   the core game has core stuff.
22:02 VanessaE    that's how everything beyond the full ones works.
22:02 jordach     celeron55, i compiled my own texture, with gimp then with gentextures.sh, which returned these two images (light colours have no half saturation) http://imgur.com/a/ZNjgl
22:02 VanessaE    <celeron55> horrible.
22:02 jordach     go on check them
22:02 VanessaE    ;)
22:03 sfan5       celeron55: what about merging my pulk now?
22:03 sfan5       *pull
22:04 VanessaE    celeron55: You do realize all my mod does is provide a bunch of craft items, right?
22:05 celeron55   i want to have dyes that players can memorize and that can have interesting ways of collecting them
22:05 celeron55   remember, SURVIVAL.
22:06 VanessaE    right
22:06 VanessaE    and what's so hard about remembering mind?
22:06 VanessaE    red, orange, yellow....?
22:06 VanessaE    mine*
22:06 jordach     for a start
22:06 VanessaE    collecting them is another matter of course
22:06 jordach     remove, lime, redviolet and skyblue
22:06 VanessaE    jordach: no - that breaks the color wheel
22:07 jordach     three colours that are almost the same as the others
22:07 jordach     VanessaE, this is the point
22:07 VanessaE    all 12 base colors are on a 30 degree rotation from red
22:07 VanessaE    it's mathematically exact
22:07 jordach     i give up with the dyes
22:07 jordach     celeron want this simple
22:07 jordach     not everything
22:08 jordach     ask yourself this: would you craft every single colour in there? no, you'd probably use /giveme
22:08 VanessaE    why would I want to craft every last color?
22:08 VanessaE    that's not the point at all
22:09 jordach     im looking from the player here
22:09 jordach     because.
22:09 VanessaE    the formula is dead simple even for the biggest idiot players :-)
22:09 jordach     they might want ONE hard to reach colour
22:09 jordach     for their block
22:09 jordach     and getting 7-8 dyes for that one block is madness
22:09 VanessaE    name it.
22:09 VanessaE    WRONG!!!!
22:09 VanessaE    try three dyes, tops.
22:10 VanessaE    a base color, black, and white.
22:10 VanessaE    that's all you need to construct any other color in the palette.
22:10 jordach     you missed your half sats
22:10 celeron55   VanessaE: don't you undestand? like "oh awesome, you've got dark green, you can only get that by killing X and being through Y with item Z"
22:10 VanessaE    celeron55: I understand NOW, you never said that part before.
22:11 jordach     im with celeron, too many items = too much time wasted
22:12 VanessaE    but in the case of unifieddyes, it's easy.  stone, junglegrass, one or two flowers, coal, and if you want desaturated colors, you'll need iron too.
22:12 jordach     see
22:12 VanessaE    (iron to make a bucket, for water)
22:12 jordach     problem
22:12 jordach     that bucket which equates to 3 iron ingots, which are rare, require 8 cobble, and one coal lump
22:13 celeron55   i am not making a paint program, i am making a game
22:13 jordach     and the water source, which there might not be any
22:13 VanessaE    celeron55: you're limiting creativity.
22:13 celeron55   if somebody wants to make a paint program of it, they can always make independent mods
22:13 sfan5       i never get an answer to my qeustion
22:13 jordach     im going to sit in the corner now, this has gone too far
22:13 VanessaE    but I get your point.
22:13 sfan5       >.<
22:13 celeron55   limiting creativity? so what?
22:13 jordach     the engine must
22:14 jordach     have a simple yet good balance*
22:14 VanessaE    because you yourself said one should "leave all creative decisions to me"
22:14 VanessaE    or words to that effect
22:14 VanessaE    that's a major FAIL
22:14 celeron55   i am BALANCING A GAME FOR THE FUTURE
22:14 VanessaE    you've made a wonderful game.
22:15 jordach     i give up on this dye thing
22:15 VanessaE    ok, you know what?  I give up.  you're not going to listen.
22:15 celeron55   i know your point, and you know my point
22:16 VanessaE    fair enough.
22:16 jordach     i think our problem here is the two opposing sides, one wants EVERYTHING in a nutshell, and the other wants something that WORKS
22:16 celeron55   no
22:17 celeron55   in a nutshell: VanessaE wants a creative sandbox; i want a balanced game
22:17 VanessaE    celeron55: wrong.
22:17 VanessaE    that's not what I want
22:17 jordach     bias is in everything
22:18 jordach     thats our problem
22:18 VanessaE    what I want is for the player - or rather the *modder* - to have enough options that they don't *have* to go looking for another, and another, and yet another addon, at least in this case
22:18 celeron55   i can tell you a secret: if a dye has color #aa7700, the color your item gets from it doesn't need to be #aa7700
22:19 VanessaE    of course not - but it needs to be *logical*
22:19 celeron55   any amount of colors give room to be logical
22:19 VanessaE    ok,
22:19 VanessaE    from jordach's 32-color set,
22:19 jordach     bleh
22:20 VanessaE    how would you get a nice, pale blue bundle of wool?  Nevermind what it'll be used for.
22:20 jordach     huh, sorry VanessaE, but what you just said gave me an excellent idea
22:21 jordach     i never thought about it like that
22:21 VanessaE    you'd either have to:
22:21 VanessaE    1, craft a white block and some straight blue dye to make blue block, then craft that with a couple of white blocks
22:21 VanessaE    +a
22:21 VanessaE    or 2, craft blue and white dyes and add the result to a white block.
22:22 celeron55   i DO NOT want to have more core dye colors than that which anything colorable can support, because it's fucking lame if you tweak a perfect color, then color something with it and instead of your exact pale blue it gets colored blue
22:22 jordach     how i mixed the wool (white + blue) would create 2 light blues, because, you strained half of the blue colour, into the other block, so that gives logic its balance, plus difficulty, because they cannot be returned to their previous colour
22:23 celeron55   maybe there should be a color enhancer dye, a darkener dye and a lightener dye that can be supported by items as an extra thing after the core dyeing if they wish to have a million colors
22:23 jordach     so lets say we have 6 central colours
22:23 jordach     bobblocks does this
22:23 jordach     and we want a VARIANT
22:24 * VanessaE  grumbles
22:24 jordach     so we, (player/modder) must make that themselves
22:24 VanessaE    did either of you read the standard I published on this?  it's all there in the parent post
22:24 VanessaE    if a modder gets stupid and strays from the standard, it'll be no different whether you have 12 base colors or 2.
22:25 VanessaE    but, do whatever you want I guess
22:26 jordach     i think roygbiv should be the standard
22:26 jordach     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_G._Biv
22:26 celeron55   i hate it how you constantly approach this like an image manipulation program
22:27 * VanessaE  shrugs
22:27 jordach     i guess we are over thinking this
22:29 jordach     lets go to the start of this
22:29 jordach     <celeron55> jordach better keep keep his wool and panes around, i will use the exact same colors, with NO extra shades of any kind
22:29 jordach     and that should have stayed there
22:30 celeron55   no, i'm going with the one being used on servers
22:30 jordach     my 16 engine?
22:30 celeron55   .
22:32 jordach     sorry about that, spaced for a second. so the mod i coded (on a broken laptop,) is actually the most balanced?
22:33 celeron55   it isn't, but that is the catch of it
22:33 celeron55   it's always interesting to base things on stuff that occurred by chance
22:33 jordach     so, its hit the target target, but in the wrong place for a kill?
22:34 jordach     50/50 in other words
22:44 celeron55   hmm, this night started with a nice feeling, and stopped with crap
22:50 VanessaE    sorry to bring you down like that
22:51 celeron55   there is one color in this set that just can't be a dye
22:52 celeron55   gold.
22:52 * celeron55 deletes line
23:13 VanessaE    I'll say one last thing re: dyes and then I'll shut up about it forever:  you say I treat minetest like a paint program.  I say, you have apparently not been playing the game on public servers:  EVERYONE treats it that way.
23:13 VanessaE    (and that's in "survival" mode, btw)
23:31 celeron55   minetest has no survival or creative mode currently
23:32 celeron55   regarding to what the words mean in my mind