Time  Nick       Message
00:01 MiJyn      define high-quality?
00:01 MiJyn      like in his terms
00:01 MiJyn      because high-quality usually means a good base and engine
00:02 MiJyn      and the code on top is, of course, well done
00:04 VanessaE   businesslike, he said
00:05 VanessaE   the sort of thing you would hire someome to do, pay for, and expect done in a short timeframe.
00:05 VanessaE   that was his definition of high quality.
00:05 VanessaE   I basically told him he's taking the concept way too far/seriously.
00:05 VanessaE   see the current -dev log
00:05 VanessaE   the conversation is long since over, but all of the text is there
00:05 MiJyn      oh
00:05 MiJyn      I see
00:06 VanessaE   I relayed to him my experience with taking a hobby and turning it into a businesslike endeavor.
00:06 MiJyn      so how would I code something that is like hiring someone to do with an engine like this?
00:06 VanessaE   except in my case, I turned it in a business.
00:06 VanessaE   and the end result?  I fucking hate what I created.
00:07 VanessaE   hobby -> business -> crash.
00:07 MiJyn      don't blame yourself
00:07 MiJyn      it wasn't only you who turned it into a "business"
00:07 VanessaE   I don't - I'm burned out, just as he is getting to.
00:08 VanessaE   as for how you code it, that I dunno - my coding style is a bit different from most
00:10 MiJyn      yeah
00:10 MiJyn      that's why I'm quitting
00:11 VanessaE   naw don't quit
00:12 VanessaE   maybe with some time I can wear down that three piece suit back down to the ratty T-shirt that should be there.  ;-)
00:15 MiJyn      well, I don't think c55 will change
00:16 MiJyn      he's so insecure
00:16 MiJyn      and to hide it, he tries to act tough and bossy etc...
00:16 VanessaE   did you read the -dev log?
00:16 VanessaE   it's all there
00:16 VanessaE   the whole convo I had with him
00:17 VanessaE   http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2012-07-20
00:17 VanessaE   that's the majority of it (from just before I signed on today)
00:26 MiJyn      holy cow
00:26 VanessaE   ?
00:26 MiJyn      if I even had ANY respect for celeron55, it is completely removed
00:27 MiJyn      I'd guess it goes way down to negative
00:27 MiJyn      "minetest is roughly half the size of Linux 1.0.0 in terms of lines of code, and uses three or four major technologies, while linux 1.0.0 is just plain old C and x86 assembly"
00:27 MiJyn      ya
00:27 MiJyn      so linux is way simpler because it doesn't use three or four major technologies?
00:27 MiJyn      I'd say it's way more complex because it DOESN'T use them, and it does so much
00:28 MiJyn      c55 could never code even the most basic kernel
00:28 VanessaE   I think the intent there was to compare the complexity of the code as a whole, not the interaction between its various technologies.
00:28 MiJyn      yeah
00:29 MiJyn      if I can write the basics of minetest in pure OpenGL in 3 days, I think it is not that complex
00:29 MiJyn      plus, I never programmed in OpenGL before
00:29 MiJyn      and I didn't program in Java for a LONG time
00:29 VanessaE   the problem isn't the basics or any one parts
00:29 VanessaE   you have to consider the complete package.
00:29 VanessaE   is minetest as complex as the linux kernel?  no.
00:30 VanessaE   is it as complex as my old modplayer project from the C64?  infinitely moreso.
00:31 MiJyn      the only part I had trouble on was something that he did not implement (something that irrlicht already did for him)
00:31 VanessaE   yeah but you never got to the point of a game as capable as what exists now.
00:31 VanessaE   that doesn't matter though
00:32 MiJyn      yeah, I stopped after I couldn't implement that
00:32 MiJyn      xD
00:32 MiJyn      I'm just saying, this project is NOT complex
00:32 MiJyn      there are thousands of projects more complex than this
00:32 VanessaE   I think that's where his definition of "high quality" veers from yours.  If I interpret him correctly, you should be fired for not finishing - if it had been a paid job that is
00:33 MiJyn      heck, nearly every popular linux 3D game is more complex  than this (even Cube)
00:33 MiJyn      right, I see
00:34 MiJyn      but it wasn't I who wanted to finish ;)
00:37 VanessaE   at any rate..
00:37 VanessaE   given his distaste for anything that would turn minetest into minecraft as it exists today, and your intent to do exactly that...
00:38 VanessaE   I'm sure you can see the conflict here :-)
00:38 MiJyn      what?
00:38 MiJyn      our intent was to supercede minecraft ;)
00:38 VanessaE   close enough
00:38 MiJyn      so c55 is actually _releasing_ 0.4 today?
00:39 NakedFury  the problem is that we have no clear clue on where he wants to take it while mijyn and gang wanted to complete bringin minecraft stuff in it
00:39 VanessaE   don't split hairs (unless you're making hasenpfeffer)
00:39 VanessaE   no, I doubt he intends to actually make a 0.4 release today
00:39 MiJyn      ok *phew* :P
00:39 VanessaE   I'm pretty sure that was him blowing off steam
00:40 MiJyn      so he _wants_ to have the community help him, but he's too arrogant
00:41 VanessaE   he wants the community to help, but he wants it done in a semi-professional manner
00:41 VanessaE   which to my mind, is an unrealistic requirement
00:41 MiJyn      yeah
00:41 MiJyn      like: "do what I can't do"
00:41 MiJyn      "and if not, your idea/code is terrible"
00:42 VanessaE   heh
00:42 VanessaE   if you read the log in detail I'm sure you'll see where I brought that up a couple of times :-0)
00:42 VanessaE   :-)
00:49 MiJyn      yep
00:49 MiJyn      I read every line of it :)
00:57 MiJyn      I hope he will take some of that advice
00:57 MiJyn      it's good that someone questions his "authority" lol
00:57 VanessaE   erk...
00:57 VanessaE   https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commits/master
00:57 VanessaE   he's gone and done it.
00:58 MiJyn      ???
00:58 MiJyn      ohz no
01:02 MiJyn      "you shouldn't act when you are frustrated"
01:02 MiJyn      he just did something like that
01:03 MiJyn      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzxMAyrEEM
03:06 cy1        VanessaE: you sound a trifle mad. perhaps celeron55 isn't taking the project seriously enough for your tastes?
03:06 VanessaE   eh?
03:06 cy1        oh, sorry scrollback
03:07 VanessaE   heh, me mad?  not at all :-)
03:12 * VanessaE looks at cy1 o.O
03:13 cy1        O.o
03:16 VanessaE   zzz
08:50 bookwar1   MiJyn: you forced me to check the logs for last two days, and I'd say this is the really stupid way you choose for both 1) raising the question at all and 2) arguing that the quality c55 asks for is "too much for a project like this". I don't want to go into details and I am not qualified to do such, just this logic is ugly. It doesn't matter if you do a hobby project or a business one, you should do it with the highest quality possible. That's th
08:50 bookwar1   You could have argue about, if the work you did have such a quality, that's the different question. But not about the principle itself.
08:54 Calinou    MiJyn, welcome to my club
08:54 bookwar1   And also I am kindly ask everybody to avoid the discussion about anyone's personal life and "attitude" during arguing of any kind. If you want any problem to be solved, focus on the technical side, please.
08:54 Calinou    also: why not fork the game?
08:54 Calinou    if you haven't already
14:37 MiJyn      <bookwar1> MiJyn: you forced me to check the logs for last two days, and I'd say this is the really stupid way you choose for both 1) raising the question at all and 2) arguing that the quality c55 asks for is "too much for a project like this". I don't want to go into details and I am not qualified to do such, just this logic is ugly. It doesn't matter if you do a hobby project or a business one, you should do it with the highest quality possibl
14:37 MiJyn      e. That's th
14:37 MiJyn      so... WHICH question?
14:38 MiJyn      The one about Lugaru?
14:38 MiJyn      Who wouldn't?
14:38 MiJyn      I wanted to understand
14:38 MiJyn      you have something against that??
14:38 jordach    autisms a bitch, deal with it
14:38 jordach    (likewise for me too.)
14:39 MiJyn      yep
14:39 MiJyn      I'm less autistic, but more OSD
14:39 jordach    duh
14:39 MiJyn      ?
14:39 jordach    guess what
14:39 jordach    celeron decided to commit an anit speedhack
14:40 MiJyn      lol
14:40 MiJyn      just as I told him to!
14:40 jordach    ha
14:40 jordach    and with anti-blockbreaking
14:42 Calinou    c<jordach> celeron decided to commit an anit speedhack
14:43 Calinou    the antispeedhack was added in december 2011
14:43 Calinou    the anti-unbreakable-block-breaking hack was added recently
14:43 Calinou    fortuantely
14:43 Calinou    MiJyn, OSD?
14:43 Calinou    on-screen display? :P
14:43 MiJyn      oh
14:43 MiJyn      sorry,
14:43 MiJyn      OCD
14:43 MiJyn      lol
14:43 MiJyn      I get those 2 mixed up
14:43 jordach    more than normal
14:43 * Calinou  just did a contrib to minetest
14:43 Calinou    a commit to my fork got merged :D
14:44 MiJyn      extra trolling? :P
14:44 Calinou    :}
14:44 jordach    no
14:44 jordach    general lua fixes
14:44 VanessaE   I've created a monster. :-)
14:44 Calinou    and c++
14:44 Calinou    VanessaE, inb4 lua fanboy
14:44 jordach    monster vanessa?
14:45 Calinou    seriously; if one is going to create mobs, create a mob SYSTEM in C++, then add API stuff in LUA, that's how it works
14:45 VanessaE   go look at #minetest-dev logs for last night (up to about 0500 GMT this morning)
14:45 Calinou    else c55 will never add mobs
14:45 Calinou    the AI part of mobs needs to be in C++ for speed
14:46 VanessaE   I hate when he does that.
14:52 jin_xi     who does what?
14:53 VanessaE   when cal just suddenly signs off, conection reset, without so much as a 'bbl'
14:53 jin_xi     oh that. well who knows what happened
14:54 VanessaE   jin_xi: finally decided to stick with one nick now? ;-)
14:54 jin_xi     there is some evil interaction between emacs and minetest. had TONS of crashes
14:54 VanessaE   so use a better OS ;-)
14:54 jin_xi     Vanessa: its just, soo many nicks alread
14:54 jin_xi     y
14:55 jin_xi     i use fedora here, first and last time i install this crap
14:55 VanessaE   emacs, being so extensible and capable now, the joke is that "Emacs is a great operating system.  All it lacks now is a good text editor."
14:56 jin_xi     but will try to remember to set my nick around here
14:56 jin_xi     i like emacs
14:56 Fixer_     https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commit/b0ba05c9ac021032801952ff1220ed4ab1b1bd45
14:56 bookwar    jin_xi: hey, fedora is the best os ever :)
14:56 jin_xi     i think it is the proper way to do complex software
14:56 VanessaE   Xubuntu 12.04 works well for me, btw
14:56 Fixer_     finally!
14:57 MiJyn      nah, why Xubuntu?
14:57 bookwar    tell me please, is it really the official stable release i can package now?
14:57 jin_xi     bookwar: my experience is different, and i find it terribly bloated and resource hungry
14:57 MiJyn      why not slackware?
14:57 MiJyn      bookwar, yes, an official release, but you can remove "stable"
14:57 bookwar    jin_xi: that's not the problem of OS, that's the problem of how you set it up )
14:58 jin_xi     true dat, i normally use gentoo.
14:58 jin_xi     but i tried a standard fedora setup for a change.
14:58 bookwar    MiJyn: the word "stable" doesn't mean bug-free, it means stable in api at least, so updates to this release will not erase the map of the currently exisiting world at least
15:00 bookwar    jin_xi: gentoo-users tend to brake fedora installation from the very beginning, "let me erase systemd, pulseaudio and consolekit.."
15:01 Fixer_     just use debian
15:03 Fixer_     Kray: your server is 0.4 now?
15:04 VanessaE   back.
15:04 VanessaE   why xubuntu?  easy to use, fairly lean.  Doesn't break too often.
15:04 VanessaE   at least for me
15:06 jordach    VanessaE, me neither#
15:07 jin_xi     no, i just let it do its thing... and yes, pulseaudio is one of the things i dont like
15:07 jordach    pulseaudio is crap when used with wine
15:07 VanessaE   the thing I hate about pulseaudio is it interferes with direct control of my mixer settings.
15:07 VanessaE   other that that, I don't have much issue with it anymore.
15:07 jordach    ikr
15:08 Kray       Fixer_: not yet
15:10 jordach    cmon Kray
15:10 Kray       too busy playing eve
15:10 jordach    do it
15:10 jordach    >.<
15:12 Kray       eve online is more important
15:13 jordach    /kick kray Eve_online
19:17 Fixer_     please warn as after kray's server update to 0.4
21:03 VanessaE   windows users:  https://github.com/downloads/celeron55/minetest/minetest-0.4.1-win32.zip
21:03 VanessaE   c55 needs feedback
21:04 Fixer_     what the problem?
21:05 VanessaE   no problem - does it work okay?
21:05 VanessaE   (I don't use windows, so can't test that build)
21:05 Fixer_     i will test shortly
21:06 sfan5      VanessaE: wine?
21:07 VanessaE   I don't consider wine to be good enough for testing something and actually reporting the results
21:07 Fixer_     it is running for me
21:07 VanessaE   (never know what might be skewed by differences in wine's implementation of the windows spec)
21:08 Fixer_     you use some linux distrib?
21:09 VanessaE   I use Xubuntu 12.04
21:12 Fixer_     ok, it is running on win xp
21:13 Fixer_     not worse than 0.4.0
21:17 Fixer_     VanessaE: btw celeron moved again to another irc?
21:17 VanessaE   yes
21:17 VanessaE   well sorta
21:17 VanessaE   more like limiting himself to one specific channel, which must not have any non-core-development-related chat.
21:21 Fixer_     Q: if i minimize minetest to tray - it keeps using 50% of cpu, can it be suspended in some friendly way to eat less cpu/video power when minimized?
21:31 VanessaE   dunno
21:33 VanessaE   I mean, surely it can be
21:33 VanessaE   on linux you can suspend almost anything