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| 12:27 |
ireallyhateirc |
Regarding SSCSMs, is there going to be some sort of licensing detection/handling mechanism? For example I'd expect that servers hosted and announced through official Luanti channels should be under a free/libre license just like mods on ContentDB have such requirement. |
| 12:27 |
ireallyhateirc |
I mean the SSCSMs should be at least |
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| 13:06 |
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| 13:40 |
stephan48 |
SSCSMs? |
| 13:41 |
ireallyhateirc |
Server-Sent Client-Side Mods |
| 13:48 |
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| 14:03 |
sfan5 |
there are no plans and I doubt your idea has any majority |
| 14:20 |
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| 14:31 |
ireallyhateirc |
sfan5, then I'd expect at least the license agreement to be displayed before connecting, because otherwise server owners could put any license terms there |
| 14:31 |
ireallyhateirc |
there needs to be some transparency |
| 14:31 |
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| 14:32 |
sfan5 |
the license agreement of what? |
| 14:32 |
ireallyhateirc |
client-side mods? |
| 14:33 |
sfan5 |
where would that come from? |
| 14:33 |
sfan5 |
the client does not care about the license of images, sound or text either and we're not going to start now just because it's code |
| 14:33 |
ireallyhateirc |
unless I'm misunderstanding something, with SSCSMs the server will be able to send mods to a remote client. Am I mistaken? |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
no that's correct as far as the theory goes |
| 14:35 |
sfan5 |
now we could of course force the server to provide a non-empty license agreement to display |
| 14:35 |
sfan5 |
I estimate it would be equivalent to "dont care lol" for most servers |
| 14:36 |
ireallyhateirc |
from a legal point of view if you don't provide a license it's "All rights reserved" by default which means you can't even play. |
| 14:36 |
ireallyhateirc |
<sfan5> now we could of course force the server to provide a non-empty license agreement to display |
| 14:36 |
ireallyhateirc |
yeah please do so |
| 14:37 |
sfan5 |
this is evidently wrong because I don't remember unuspecting web users being sued for daring to look at a web page |
| 14:38 |
ireallyhateirc |
Just because random websites prefer to be legally ambiguous doesn't mean we should make it a standard for Luanti? |
| 14:38 |
celeron55 |
there's obviously an implied license that allows the user to run the code if the server sends code to the client using a protocol that's sole purpose is to provide the client code to run |
| 14:39 |
celeron55 |
a protocol whose* |
| 14:39 |
celeron55 |
if some legal system thinks otherwise that would be very funny |
| 14:41 |
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| 14:52 |
ireallyhateirc |
I don't really like the idea of running legally ambiguous software with zero support for such a basic thing as checking the license. If someone implemented the feature, would it be rejected? |
| 14:54 |
sfan5 |
considering luanti doesn't have a plugin api (like e.g. browsers do) i think the chance exists |
| 14:54 |
sfan5 |
it would certainly not be the default |
| 14:56 |
ireallyhateirc |
the bare minimum I expect is that when a CSM is sent all its files get sent too (source code with license headers, READMEs, license files) |
| 14:57 |
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| 14:57 |
ireallyhateirc |
then I could at least read the licenses manually and block execution until I think the CSM is good |
| 14:58 |
dzho |
yeah javascript just YOLOing code every which way has really played havoc with the widespread Berne convention default-to-on copyright restriction regime and no one has ever really properly caught up |
| 14:59 |
dzho |
watching the cat-and-mouse game between Youtube and NewTube is a great demonstration of this |
| 15:02 |
ireallyhateirc |
Just to be clear, I'm not against people making and playing on proprietary servers. But I personally don't want to be exposed to "you become Bill Gates' towelboy" license terms by simply pressing the "connect" button |
| 15:10 |
ireallyhateirc |
So there either needs to be licensing transparency or a way to block non-local SSCSMs |
| 15:12 |
ireallyhateirc |
btw stripping licensing info from CC BY-SA licensed media and sending them to client could possibly be considered violating the license? |
| 15:15 |
sfan5 |
possibly |
| 15:15 |
sfan5 |
MTG might have to ship an ingame command that replays the license file it has |
| 15:18 |
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| 15:19 |
Desour |
SPDX license headers could be easily read from sent SSCSM script files. I wouldn't be against adding a setting to warn if a server sends a script with non-free license. after all, one of our values is that we really like free software |
| 15:19 |
Krock |
ireallyhateirc: most websites don't send the license along with the image, either. The media is used for displaying only. If you wanted to alter or distribute the file, you'd then have to get the license. |
| 15:19 |
Desour |
and for media, we might actually consider also sending licensing information |
| 15:20 |
Krock |
such information could be added to the EXIF fields but those are generally trimmed by optipng/pngcrush |
| 15:22 |
sfan5 |
well it would normally be the responsibility of the website to reproduce the license information |
| 15:27 |
Desour |
hmm, another issue is, if a mod would send a media file with dynamic media, or send code at runtime, it could circumvent a check |
| 15:31 |
[ |
there should also be a way to modify SSCSMs otherwise freedom 1 cannot be exercised |
| 15:38 |
sfan5 |
that poses a cheating risk so I guess we will have to prevent foss-licensed SSCSMs |
| 15:38 |
Desour |
[: (<- ahhh, now I understand your name, it's a smiley now!) the standard luanti client will not include a way to modify sscsms before running them, and it will also not allow the player to add client provided SSCSMs. this is just to prevent easy cheating. recompiling luanti and changing anything is of course allowed, but server owners are also allowed to ban you, and we're allowed to disallow posts on the forums that promote cheat software |
| 15:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> SSCSM licensing considerations are low-priority |
| 15:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> as is the ability to exercise freedom 1 |
| 15:40 |
Desour |
freedom 1 says you can change the software. servers requiring you to run their code unmodified does not violate this |
| 15:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the realistic path for the latter will still be "ask the server owner for the sources" |
| 15:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> if anything SSCSM will be an improvement over the status quo tbh because with them, you'll at least (if you're tech savy) be able to see part of the sources, when otherwise everything would be on the server |
| 15:42 |
[ |
I expect servers to start doing cryptomining via SSCSMs |
| 15:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> finally infinite money glitch in luanti |
| 15:43 |
Desour |
@luatic: I would like to have a feature to store downloaded sscsm scripts to disks, because why not. |
| 15:44 |
Desour |
[: if a server takes much CPU resources, it must mean the mod is complex and hence good! x) |
| 15:48 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> store it to disk? It should already live in cache |
| 15:48 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> I suppose you mean first-class support, not fishing it out of the waste-paper basket |
| 15:53 |
Desour |
it's only in the cache if we use media download, and set the cache flag. and yes, I mean store it in such a way that the directory structure is kept :) |
| 15:54 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> I would imagine this hypothetical download code would use caching, and media already does it so... |
| 15:55 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> Anyway it's quite intriguing what you can find in your media cache sometimes |
| 15:55 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> Easter eggs, or just stuff you don't know about from other means. |
| 15:56 |
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| 15:58 |
Desour |
obligatory mention of this copyright nightmare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRubE_ZrSEw |
| 16:00 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> sam's entire life flashing before sam's eyes |
| 16:03 |
ROllerozxa |
what a silly video |
| 16:04 |
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| 16:04 |
ROllerozxa |
split the video up and upload each part as a short and you will become a media empire |
| 16:05 |
ROllerozxa |
2 hours of random imagery and funny sound effects, very stimulating |
| 16:06 |
ireallyhateirc |
<sfan5> that poses a cheating risk so I guess we will have to prevent foss-licensed SSCSMs |
| 16:07 |
ireallyhateirc |
I hope that's just a joke. Security by obscurity doesn't work anyway |
| 16:07 |
ireallyhateirc |
see any FPS game |
| 16:07 |
sfan5 |
i guess we shouldn't try at all then |
| 16:08 |
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| 16:10 |
[MatrxMT] |
<Blockhead256> youtube music even identifies two songs... |
| 16:13 |
Desour |
btw. if you need a sound for your alarm clock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRubE_ZrSEw&t=394s |
| 16:14 |
sfan5 |
can someone check if the homedecor(?) fire alarm is in there |
| 16:17 |
ireallyhateirc |
Desour, thanks for considering my proposal btw, would be nice if that was a compile-time setting too so distributions can easily enable it (unless you make it the default) |
| 16:18 |
Desour |
ireallyhateirc: which proposal do you mean (I lost track)? |
| 16:18 |
ireallyhateirc |
<Desour> SPDX license headers could be easily read from sent SSCSM script files. I wouldn't be against adding a setting to warn if a server sends a script with non-free license. after all, one of our values is that we really like free software |
| 16:18 |
Desour |
ah I see |
| 16:19 |
Desour |
distros could also easily patch defaultsettings.cpp and settingtypes.txt |
| 16:19 |
Desour |
(or we just enable it by default) |
| 16:20 |
ireallyhateirc |
whatever works as long as I'm not forced to learn C++ and fork the game (engine) to patch it |
| 16:20 |
sfan5 |
should distros enable csm license enforcement by default they are essentially shipping a broken client |
| 16:21 |
sfan5 |
(as games will increasingly rely on it) |
| 16:23 |
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| 16:27 |
ireallyhateirc |
sfan5, that's up to the distros to handle the smell. But AFAIK Desour proposed only license warning and not a complete blacklist. |
| 16:27 |
ireallyhateirc |
a license warning doesn't break gameplay or prevent people from playing on proprietary servers, it just notifies them |
| 16:28 |
ireallyhateirc |
you can leave the setting disabled by default but GNU FSDG distributions will enable it and ship a "broken" client |
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