| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:04 |
|
rh9 joined #luanti-docs |
| 00:18 |
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rh9 joined #luanti-docs |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Nobody told me we made an announcement! https://forum.luanti.org/viewtopic.php?p=442079&sid=cac94bb3471102fc74efdc8ce07a91d1#p442079 |
| 01:27 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> We didnt |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> to be clear, I'm happy about it 🙂 this seems like the official announcement I was looking for. Community is mad but such is life |
| 01:46 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> I believe the only upset community member appears to be Wuzzy, which is not unexpected. Most of their points are trivially refuted and the only thing preventing them from contributing is themselves. They've also made a bet that the project will stagnate, which is rich considering the original wiki state. And I intend to make sure they lose that bet. |
| 01:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> all i have to say is roller appears to have the patience of a saint tbh (thanks again for responding over there) |
| 01:58 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> > Yes, the new site is integrated with GitHub. your just feeding the "trolls" mark, now there going to be going on and on. its just a git repo running all open source tools than be be dropped kicked anywhere, run locally, etc |
| 02:38 |
MTDiscord |
<mark.wiemer> Meh, I said what I said, it's true enough. GitHub Actions don't exactly work on any Codeberg site, but I did clearly state that we could move if needed pretty easily. Anyone with good faith should understand, and the trolls will do what they do |
| 05:00 |
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MTDiscord joined #luanti-docs |
| 10:13 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> What if the docs project switched to codeberg? Switching from FOSS to proprietary is a valid argument. The other arguments are, well, much more arguable |
| 10:45 |
celeron55 |
eh |
| 10:45 |
celeron55 |
i can't register this channel because i'm not an op, and nobody has +o here |
| 10:46 |
celeron55 |
and because it's not registered, i can't get +o from ChanServ |
| 10:46 |
celeron55 |
ad because i can't get +o here, i also can't redirect people joining #minetest-docs into here |
| 10:57 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> huh, who registered the #minetest-docs IRC channel then |
| 10:57 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> or it was never registered and we've just been squatting on it the whole time? |
| 11:37 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Iirc warr joined first? |
| 11:40 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> At one point they had plus o |
| 11:43 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> https://github.com/luanti-org/luanti/issues/12324 seems the org hasn't even decoded. Zero interest in being the first |
| 11:54 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> setting up a mirror on codeberg that allows contributing both ways while we keep the canonical source on github for CI and hosting for now sounds like a good idea |
| 11:54 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> I have set up mirrors on codeberg that sync the repository in one way from github to codeberg, setting it up to also sync in the other way wouldn't be much more complicated |
| 11:56 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> you'll end up with two pools of pull requests though, and issue tracker can only really be mirrored one way to codeberg, but maybe the IRC would be enough for those contributing through codeberg |
| 11:57 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> https://codeberg.org/Recommendations/Mirror_to_Codeberg |
| 12:12 |
celeron55 |
got it sorted out |
| 12:12 |
celeron55 |
(ChanServ has a "claim" command that worked) |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> they where already told they could do git patches https://github.com/luanti-org/dev.luanti.org/issues/65#issuecomment-2552392956 |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> I don't know if anyone actually wants to send git patches by email in 2025 |
| 14:38 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> editing and opening PRs through codeberg would give you the same convenient editing workflow for small-time contributors of being able to edit through their web interface and then open a PR |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> only real problem would be that we'd have two pools of PRs with separate and overlapping #'s, but we can receive email notifications for when users have opened PRs from both repos and sync across them when commits happen |
| 14:43 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> I think it would be doable, I'd be willing to try to set a contributable mirror up on codeberg for this. I assume c55 has ownership over the hidden "luanti" organisation on codeberg which we can put it on |
| 17:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> dont use email notifications |
| 17:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> assume there are other people |
| 17:22 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> I use email notifications |
| 17:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> could make a github action that nightly makes a pr from any existing ones on codeberg |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> If this is to cater to the issues Wuzzy is describing, one of which is the FOSS issue, the second issue, leaving out non-devs, also needs to be considered. Wuzzy won't be happy if both don't happen, and codeberg doesn't solve both |
| 18:03 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> A built-in editor even without codeberg would kind of solve both, assuming the github actions that are being used are reasonably portable |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> Wuzzy is making the mistake to assume everything is final, while the reality is that nothing is final |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> Let me put it this way: Do you have arguments against the "non-devs can't edit" issue? |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> I think it's obvious as an issue. The problem is trying to weight the effort of solving it to the benefit that could be gotten from it |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> there are a lot of non-programmers who still have github accounts for opening issues and doing other interactions |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> Yes, and Luanti is aiming to be an platform for developing games and the vast amount of that usage is by people who should use git |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> yeah |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> So in fact the non-devs accessing the docs are end users looking to configure their client |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> And people looking to host a server |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> Anything about the game itself that's to be run on the client or server should be on the game's wiki or whatever |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> but you don't need to even know git (as in the CLI tool) to edit, the process to make edits through the web interface on github/codeberg should be fairly straightforward, and the only thing that differentiates from a wiki edit is when you have saved the changes and it asks you to open a pull request |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> however if we wanted to provide our own page editor we'd be looking at deploying something like SDL's ghwikipp: https://github.com/libsdl-org/ghwikipp |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> (from the editor's side they just need a github account and edits work just like a wiki. and a bot account takes care of opening PRs) |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Even in the worst case, for the most non-technical users, contributing to the docs could still be done by just sending a copy of a complete updated document, or any section of it (if the instructions on how to merge it in are clear) and having a developer complete the merge and open the PR. Technical barriers don't always require technical solutions. |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> ghwikipp does sound gross to me, in a similar way as mediawiki was |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> I want to minimize the moving parts that we have to maintain, while maximizing our ownership of our data |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> Github does that |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> yup, agreed |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> It's unfortunate that it isn't as user friendly as mediawiki (well, I'd argue mediawiki isn't user friendly either), and that it's not FOSS (altough everything we actually care about is FOSS), but the benefit is clea |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> Writing into the README a clear explanation of how it works, what's ours and what Github does and how to port it elsewhere would probably satisfy some of the people who are trying to hate it |
| 18:21 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> The biggest fear is probably vendor lock-in. Nothing purely ideological, but a more practical fear |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ... which is being very much exaggerated because this is at its core a portable repo using Hugo. There's hardly any CI. |
| 18:32 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I don't see anything specific to GH, or even specific to Hugo, in this doc repo. If I had to navigate the entire thing using nothing but vi and sh, it wouldn't be exactly comfortable but it would be quite doable. |
| 18:33 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It looks to me pretty much like the gold standard for portability and non-lock-in. |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> much less lock-in than even mediawiki, I'd argue, with the standard markdown syntax and having everything in a clonable git repository. |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<rollerozxa> (Special:Export is a thing for text content but it is very hard to really export everything, and images and other mediawiki magic won't follow) |
| 18:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I also think the "drive-by non-technical contributors" point is greatly exaggerated. Sure, that was more important back when this wiki was also about all kinds of games and mods, but we don't want that. How many such potential contributors are there really? How much would they contribute? How good would the quality of their contributions be? As much as I'd like to have some more helping hands, realistically I have to say that it sort of |
| 18:46 |
MTDiscord |
just doesn't happen. |
| 18:52 |
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Niklp joined #luanti-docs |
| 18:58 |
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rubenwardy joined #luanti-docs |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> Would it be possible to have a technical semi deep dive into how the repo works, so calm down people claiming vendor lock-in is an issue and who decline from contributing because of that? |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<celeron55> I mean, to link to those people |
| 19:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i mean, there is https://docs.luanti.org/about-this-site/ and its sub pages, maybe not deep enough |
| 20:02 |
celeron55 |
it needs to be for someone who doesn't know how hugo works, how github actions work, or... really even how git works |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
so that it becomes plainly obvious the little vendor lock-in is only about convenience |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
like, where's the data, how can you obtain a copy of it, when is it processed by what systems, where the source code of said systems are |
| 20:04 |
celeron55 |
in what format is the data |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> markdown |
| 20:59 |
celeron55 |
that wasn't a question :D that was the script for the deeper dive section of the about page |
| 21:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> i mean, it was a question, it just isn't supposed to be answered here, but rather on the about page 😏 |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i dont think the about page needs a disertation because wuzzy is wuzzy |
