Time Nick Message 04:59 erle i should probably get a palette with more than 12 colors … https://mister-muffin.de/p/kzDx.png https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/maps/src/branch/master/init.lua 05:05 erle at one point snow was yellow by accident (don't eat yellow snow) https://mister-muffin.de/p/mnSF.png 06:01 nk_ hello 06:02 Guest48 hello 06:23 Pexin erle: where the huskies go? 06:44 erle Pexin, what do you mean? 09:52 settl3r[m] Do "/msg"-sent messages get stored, so that the other player receives it after he gets back online in the server it was sent? 09:54 rubenwardy No 09:54 rubenwardy There are mods for that 09:54 rubenwardy But by default no 10:00 settl3r[m] Ok. 10:00 settl3r[m] By the way, on some servers i saw that some players had physical mailboxes inside the gameworld, can i use these to write them a message which gets stored for them? 10:00 settl3r[m] Or are these purely decorative? 10:02 settl3r[m] oh.. do i need paper (from papyrus) and a quill (plus ink?) to be able to write a message? 10:22 calcul0n settl3r[m], in mtg you can make writable books from paper but you don't need ink 10:23 calcul0n and the mailbox is probably the one from homedecor, it lets people put all kind of stuff for the owner 10:29 Wuzzy What do I need to to for Tutorial be allowed on ContentDB again? Like, which mods *specifically* are offending? 10:29 settl3r[m] hm.. so i "only" need to cultivate papyrus to be able to put them a book into their mailbox, with my message? 10:29 Wuzzy because the Tutorial "game" is currently delisted :( 10:34 calcul0n settl3r[m], yes 10:35 calcul0n with farming redo you can also make paper from hemp btw 11:14 settl3r[m] ok. 11:14 settl3r[m] on another topic, how can i revoke my own privs in singleplayer? i want to create a game, where all cheats are disabled forever. 11:16 settl3r[m] or can i create a secondary character for that world, which has only priv? 11:17 settl3r[m] in Minecraft, when switching to hardcore, it was impossible to ever switch the gamemode later, i really loved that mode.. is there something similar possible in Minetest? a certain subgame, maybe? 11:23 Wuzzy not that i know of 11:34 MTDiscord settlr, 11:34 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/well-yes-but-actually-no-well-yes-no-yes-yes-no-gif-13736934 11:36 MTDiscord You can delete the creative mod, override the chat commands that grant you privs, probably remove the 'disable damage' checkbox, but then again, you qan revert those chandes again just as easily as you can make them 11:37 MTDiscord *can, *changes 11:37 MTDiscord there's a really simple trick to reverse hard mode on minecraft 11:38 MTDiscord You are about to ruin minecraft for him forever O.o 11:38 MTDiscord >:) 12:16 erle it's really obvious how well fleck handled the shading for maps when you only use flat colors: https://mister-muffin.de/p/4Vqq.png 13:28 Pexin settl3r[m]: there is a mail mod where you only need to type /mail to get a send/rcv/read UI, and notifies the recipient on login when there are new msgs 13:31 Pexin erle: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TLIppgE45wM 15:16 erle it's treasure map time hehe https://mister-muffin.de/p/U_HM.png 15:47 erle uh, is it true that people have been using texture modifiers to make signs, like savages? 15:47 erle i have read stuff to that effect and it seems … unfortunate 15:47 erle i mean i am pretty sure it is true, but anyone knows a mod that works like that? 15:48 MTDiscord Many, many mods render text to textures using the combine texture modifier 15:48 MTDiscord Player nametag mods do it 15:49 MTDiscord Basically all signs mods that display text in-world do it too 15:58 erle luatic that seems horrible 15:58 erle luatic why haven't they done it like you or me to it? 16:05 MTDiscord 1. Because there was no dynamic media when those mods were written 16:05 MTDiscord 2. Because it works well and supports older versions 16:06 MTDiscord 3. Because it's rather simpler (and the texture strings don't even get long i.e. for playernames) 16:06 MTDiscord simple* 16:07 MTDiscord In fact this may be more efficient due to the fact that [combine can blit arbitrarily high-res glyphs whereas "our" approach requires painting those as pixels. 16:19 MTDiscord erle: How come the world is rendered at a lower resolution (scaled up) to the HUD in those images? 16:20 MTDiscord is there a dial for that? Can't find anything relevant 16:21 erle GoodClover undersampling 16:21 erle undersampling = 4 16:21 erle in minetest.conf 16:22 erle luatic but there are bug reports “minetest can not handle my 3k texture modifiers” … ._. 16:23 MTDiscord erle: this kind of glyph rendering only requires one texture modifier (combine) though 16:23 MTDiscord as long as the texmod string is below 16k (short string limit), you're golden 16:23 MTDiscord (although you might want it to be shorter to not put unnecessary strain on the network) 16:25 MTDiscord thanks :) 16:26 MTDiscord erle: this really doesn't matter at all in comparison to Minetest not even getting acceleration right 16:26 MTDiscord i.e. Minetest's physics, as simple as they are, are severely broken ._. 17:02 alguien Does anyone know why the (client lua api) minetest.get_node_or_nil would always return nil, even for positions of loaded nodes? 17:07 MTDiscord maybe because the client mods aren't authorized to see those nodes? 17:07 MTDiscord IIRC client mods can be limited in access to nodes, possibly by range from the player or something...? 17:09 alguien MTDiscord, this is my local instance, and I (singleplayer) am right next to the node 17:12 erle alguien still check CSM restriction settings 17:14 alguien erle, I don't have csm_restriction_noderange, could it be that it defaults to 0? 17:14 erle no idea what are the csm bits 17:16 sfan5 it defaults to zero yes 17:21 alguien sfan5, does that mean that by default CSMs are effectively blind? 17:22 sfan5 yes 17:22 sfan5 this was done at the concern of server owners that they could be used for cheating 17:24 alguien hmm 17:25 alguien i guess they could allow you to look underground... 17:25 alguien (i'm thinking if the radius was the same as say reachable radius) 17:25 MTDiscord sure they can let you look underground, but then again, so can a malicious minetest fork 17:25 MTDiscord like dragonfire 17:28 alguien MTDiscord, you mean it's a client-side restriction?! 17:28 sfan5 of course 17:28 alguien "of course"? what do you mean of course!? 17:29 alguien ay 17:29 alguien this makes no sense 17:29 alguien the malicious person just overrides it 17:29 MTDiscord say that to the server owners that requested the feature 17:29 MTDiscord dragonfire is amazing, i use it for all my online banking transactions 17:29 MTDiscord it's also pretty good at getting around anticheat 17:30 alguien GoodClover: maybe they wanted a server-side feature 17:30 alguien like: don't send clients metadata 17:30 alguien not, send clients metadata, but tell them not to use it 17:30 MTDiscord DF is not really MT's concern though. 17:30 alguien ? 17:30 MTDiscord The CSM restrictions are really there for honest players anyway 17:31 alguien Warr: well apparently 17:31 definitelya Yeah, only certified malicious people can do that. 17:31 sfan5 alguien: as it turns out many people don't do things they aren't meant to if it's at least mildly inconvenient 17:31 MTDiscord i.e. anti-cheat isn't just for people who want to cheat no matter what, it also helps keep honest players honest by reducing temptation. 17:32 alguien sfan5, i don't think that works 17:32 alguien Warr: "isn't just" -> isn't at all 17:33 MTDiscord Some people make anti-cheat features that are designed to prevent people from purposely cheating 17:33 MTDiscord but it's not easy to do very effectively 17:33 alguien sfan5, especially once it's default on most or all servers 17:33 sfan5 do you know how easy it is for an experienced person to pick a lock? how many people have you asked why they have a lock on their shed/bike/box/...? 17:33 sfan5 and do you have locks on yours? 17:34 alguien sfan5, i'm sure whoever can install a CSM can follow instructions to install or patch the client 17:34 alguien especially if servers by default don't allow them to be superior to others, which is the wish of their hearts 17:34 alguien this is silly 17:35 sfan5 you are now saying that it won't stop people who really want to do it while earlier you argued it won't stop anyone 17:35 alguien did I? 17:35 sfan5 Warr: "isn't just" -> isn't at all 17:35 MTDiscord alguien, I think we've heard these arguments all before 17:35 sfan5 hmm where did the <...> go 17:35 alguien sfan5, read the rest of that sentence 17:36 alguien "Everyone" aren't a concern 17:36 MTDiscord It's like saying that the hardware store shouldn't bother selling door locks because they just sell crowbars anyway. 17:36 alguien Warr: well you should've heeded them 17:36 MTDiscord We did heed them. 17:37 sfan5 alguien: it looks like we agree then, it doesn't stop dedicated people 17:37 sfan5 yet that does not make the feature pointless 17:37 alguien sfan5, it doesn't stop malicious people whose whole point is to hack 17:37 sfan5 correct 17:37 alguien well the feature does more harm than good 17:38 alguien i doubt server owners specifically asked you: please make my good-willed users blind 17:38 MTDiscord You're arguing with the wrong people anyway 17:38 MTDiscord it's between you and the server owner 17:38 alguien Warr: you're defending it 17:38 MTDiscord if people want to hack, they use dragonfire. if you don't want them to hack, then somehow find a way to disallow dragonfire 17:38 MTDiscord Apparently they don't think you should be able to use CSMs for this. 17:38 alguien Warr: not when it's the default 17:38 alguien Warr: only malicious people 17:39 MTDiscord only malicious people what 17:39 alguien Warr: mate we're not talking about a specific server, I'm running the game locally 17:39 sfan5 then disable it? 17:39 alguien apparently I don't want to let myself run CSMs? 17:39 MTDiscord oh, then you have even MORE no excuse for not being able to configure it. 17:39 MTDiscord if you want to cheat on a private game, go ahead 17:39 alguien sfan5, it's a silly feature 17:39 MTDiscord otherwise don't 17:39 MTDiscord csms are useful 17:39 MTDiscord If you think the feature is silly then disable it 17:39 MTDiscord this ^ 17:40 sfan5 disabling it in singleplayer could be an useful suggestion 17:40 alguien Warr: you'll vote for my commit to make the default equal to the player reach range? 17:40 sfan5 the player cannot reach through solid nodes 17:40 MTDiscord why would you disable it in singleplayer and not multiplayer??? 17:40 sfan5 neither can the player reliably identify the exact node it is 17:41 alguien ZweiKamel? 17:42 MTDiscord I will not vote for your commit because I don't have a vote anyway. 17:42 alguien sfan5, that could be further restricted. But to make the CSM blind by default only for honest players is still silly 17:42 alguien (either way) 17:43 MTDiscord A range of 1 or 2 (depending on whether the node the player is in counts and whether rounding is done before/after adding range to player pos) seems like it'd be very hard to argue against, though. 17:44 alguien Warr: and it would still be useful, as evidenced by the mod basic_robot which can only read_node in radius 1 too 17:45 alguien sorry i'm just angry that i can't do what I wanted, It's not your fault 17:46 alguien probably 17:48 alguien I'm not sure about sfan5 but I think the rest of you are off the hook XD 17:48 MTDiscord It's open-source software, it's going to have bugs, including issues where nobody can agree whether it's a bug or whether it's right and it'd be a bug the other way around. If you can find a good compromise position that has strong rationale why it's better than the extremes, then there's still a decent chance of effecting change. 17:49 alguien Warr: your suggestion of 1 being default is good 17:49 MTDiscord My concern of course include how the rounding is done 17:50 alguien Warr I'm sure it can be done right 17:51 MTDiscord Can? Definitely. Will? Well ... you increase the chances of that if you do it yourself ? 17:52 MTDiscord Is there a definitive and preferably succinct guide to how to contribute somewhere, walking through the issue -> concept approval -> PR -> review -> 2 approvals lifecycle? 17:53 alguien Warr: you'll do that for me? Thanks, you're the best XD 17:54 MTDiscord Well, I guess on some level that IS the guide ... but maybe a bit TOO succinct :-) 17:57 MTDiscord Generally, at least, last time I checked, PRs are supposed to start their lifecycle as an issue and the proposed solution needs to be concept-approved before a PR will be considered, so it's best to do that before you start digging too deep into the code. People may raise some concerns that hadn't been considered and you may want to change the approach. 17:57 alguien More sillyness, ceck this out: I join a server, and my csm gets run, and a node returns the info. A few seconds later I guess it's only then that the restriction kicks in and I don't get the info. Ayayayayay puerto rico 17:57 alguien thanks for the tip Warr 17:58 definitelya c:)> 17:59 alguien oh no, it's not that, my bad 17:59 alguien it's that i was checking the grass node which was at the exact same position as I was. You know, radius 0? XD 17:59 alguien so I can check nodes, i just have to glitch into them hah 18:00 alguien yep, just checked a solid one now hehehe 18:01 alguien so technically and practically it's not as bad as i thought 18:02 MTDiscord The point of those CSM restrictions simply is to have SOME type of protection against possible cheaters on servers...of course there will always be those who know how to edit c++ source code or download cheat clients but the majority of users does not 18:03 MTDiscord There are no cheat clients for Android either I think so those issues only exist on desktop 18:03 erle Wuzzy do you have a lua algorithm for bresenhams axe? 18:03 erle Wuzzy like, displaying “uses left” in tooltips 18:04 alguien IhrFussel: bleh 18:04 alguien client side security ¬_¬ 18:04 MTDiscord Or at least if any of the cheat clients does work on mobile it is not in the Play Store and needs to be downloaded from somewhere else which again almost nobody will do 18:05 alguien MTDiscord, fine, maybe a random "PVPer" doesn't get to one-shot people... 18:06 erle IMO the point of the CSM restrictions are to calm down server ownners who couldn't distinguish assistive technology from game-breaking cheats ever 18:07 MTDiscord what happened to never trusting the client, implement server-side anticheat 18:07 MTDiscord Many crucial things cannot be cheated from the client no matter how much you modify it like HP, damage, breath, punch interval 18:07 erle alguien this gives you a lot of CSMs and more APIs than vanilla minetest, don't cheat https://repo.or.cz/waspsaliva.git 18:07 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: DevTest: Fix broken PNG textures 13eabf057 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/eabf05758e3ba5f6f4bb1b8d1d1f02179b84e410 (152022-05-17T18:06:15Z) 18:08 erle Wuzzy how did they get broken anyway? 18:10 MinetestBot 02[git] 04JakobDev -> 03minetest/minetest: Add vcs-browser and contribute URLs to Appdata 13db9b3af https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/db9b3aff75d920585c793639050ccccb18972cca (152022-05-17T18:08:32Z) 18:11 alguien MTDiscord, are you sure? I've seen people who didn't die reaching 0 hp 18:11 alguien and their health regenerated on its own 18:11 MTDiscord Which MTDiscord user are you talking to, IRC? 18:11 alguien IhrFussel* 18:12 MTDiscord Ah, I see 18:12 MinetestBot 02[git] 04savilli -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove confusing message in keybindings menu 13af37f9d https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/af37f9dc542e31f34d53da995ed86f2a3eacd9a5 (152022-05-17T18:11:08Z) 18:12 MTDiscord Many things cannot be reliably cheated from the client side, IF the server mod/game code is setup to actually properly enforce certain mechanics and not just rely on default client behavior. 18:14 erle yeah 18:14 erle like, autokill 18:14 erle ridiculously easy to figure out if someone is hitting every entity in reach 18:15 Wuzzy erle: see #12328. sfan5's fault, apparently 18:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12328 -- DevTest: Fix broken PNG textures by Wuzzy2 18:15 Wuzzy erle: what do you mean with "bresenhams axe"? 18:16 erle yeah i want to konw which tool breaks PNGs. sfan5 do you remember? 18:16 erle Wuzzy the algorithm you use for tool usage calculation is similar to bresenhams line drawing algorithm. a friend of mine saw it and named yours “bresenhams axe”. 18:17 Wuzzy ahhhh 18:17 Wuzzy yeah you're not the first one saying this =) 18:18 Wuzzy i think i still have the Lua version of the code lying around somewhere... 18:18 erle Wuzzy if you can maek the lua code to determine usages left a mod it would be very nice 18:18 erle for tooltips 18:18 sfan5 erle: apparently I ran this: nice oxipng -o max games/devtest/mods/basetools/textures/basetools_* 18:18 sfan5 but I think there was something else, maybe stripping the iCCP chunk? 18:18 erle sfan5, oh is it better than optipng in some way? 18:19 sfan5 it can multithread 18:19 sfan5 also zopfli if you want it 18:19 Wuzzy See #11110. It contains the old Lua code I used to test out my maths. it's not ready-to-use for your usecase tho 18:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11110 -- Fix number of tool uses being off by 1..32767 by Wuzzy2 18:19 erle oh 18:19 erle zopfli i see 18:19 MTDiscord I use advpng for zopfli ... and lately I've started using ect too, but it's super-brute-force slow 18:19 Wuzzy i use zopflipng for all my compressions =) 18:20 MTDiscord multithreading is less important of a feature as long as you have more files to process than you have cores :-) 18:20 erle a paletted map that my WIP mod generates. it will be used for treasure maps. so … water is nice, but how to draw land? https://mister-muffin.de/p/9Li5.png 18:21 MTDiscord erle I don't see anything wrong with your depiction of land per se as it is, unless you wanted to add like topographical contours or something. 18:22 fluxionary what's the proper way to check whether 2 objects/entities are the same thing? 18:23 alguien " ridiculously easy to figure out if someone is hitting every entity in reach" <- but not if they're doing it with a csm 18:23 Wuzzy fun fact: zopfli is named after this tasty thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zopf 18:24 sfan5 fluxionary: == works on ObjectRefs 18:24 erle alguien the CSM hits even invisible entities ;) 18:24 fluxionary sfan5: thanks :) 18:24 erle Warr1024 yeah i want contours or anything. like, this is just too barren. 18:24 sfan5 because there is only one ObjectRef instance in Lua for an object 18:24 alguien erle, *typetype* not anymore 18:24 erle Warr1024 like what if there is a chest hidden in a cave. 18:27 alguien please tell me a hacked client cannot set node metadata? 18:27 alguien in particular the "owner" field 18:28 Krock they cannot set node metadata on their own 18:29 MTDiscord erle, instead of contours, one other option might be to detect certain terrain features like leaves/trees or something... 18:29 Krock interaction with formspecs are needed to do that 18:30 sfan5 the reason the node range is the way we discussed is that the client has limited knowledge of surroundings that it can't see, which is complicated to avoid 18:30 sfan5 map modifications aren't like that because it's not up to the client but the server, and the server only does what it is programmed to 18:31 Wuzzy erle: probably not exactly what you asked for, but this PR has some utility functions: #12047 18:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12047 -- Add helper functions to make tool usable n times by Wuzzy2 18:31 MTDiscord Re: what hacked clients can do: generally they can move about freely, and trigger any event on the server they want, e.g. punch, place, dig. There may be some protections in place to ensure those inputs are "sane" given the circumstances, but to allow for the game to be playable under lag, there's a lot of leeway by default. What then CAN'T do is break out of the game logic once those events have been passed onto the server. The 18:31 MTDiscord entity:on_punch or on_dig_node event or whatever is called, and then the game/mods have the chance to validate that action and the client can't do anything about that. 18:32 MTDiscord We could do a line-of-sight check for the nodes that CSMs are allowed to see, but (1) raycasts can be rather expensive, and (2) what counts as "sight" can be actually quite tricky. If you can see the corner of a node, but a raycast from your camera to the center of the node would be obscured, should that "count" or not, and if so, how?? 18:33 MTDiscord I've actually done a number of modding things where things are affected by "line of smell", so I'm doing like a floodfill algorithm to find things that influence something ... accounting for that kind of thing would make stuff get crazy complex pretty fast. 18:34 alguien Krock, can you elaborate please? 18:34 Pexin floodfill, you mean just shortest path? 18:35 alguien Krock, if a node provides a form, they can do that? 18:35 Krock alguien: only if the formspec is not properly secured 18:35 Krock there's no direct way for clients to write to any metadata 18:36 Krock difference being that clients can read out all public node metadata fields because they're needed for static formspec field expressions 18:36 Krock i.e. ${metadata_key} unfolds to the value contained in the node metadata 18:39 erle what hacked clients are usually used for is either combad (between hackers), which looks like dragonballZ basically 18:39 MTDiscord Pexin, yeah, floodfill as in connected to the starting point by any path up to a certain distance, but not in a particular direction (it can bend and twist around obstacles). Actually ... similar to how light spreads in MT already. 18:39 alguien Krock, ay 18:39 erle and also quality-of-life things, like automatic eating or killing specific mobs in range 18:40 erle also tracers 18:40 erle tracers are so nice 18:40 erle should be in vanilla IMO 18:40 erle but the vast majority of cheat client uses i have witnessed was neither. it was automatic building. 18:40 MTDiscord What hacked clients are good for is very often orthogonal to what I care about in my game so I usually don't try to block use of the clients preemptively, unless I see them actually find a way to meaningfully cheat, and actually try to exploit it... 18:40 erle and automatic mining. 18:41 alguien Krock, how would an insecure formspec look like? If you want, you can PM me btw 18:41 MTDiscord to be fair, alternative clients of various kinds (including "cheat" ones) can sometimes actually be necessary for certain users to some extent for accessibility reasons. 18:41 erle yeah, i think non-vanilla minetest clients are only a problem if your game is … very … grindy. 18:41 erle like, imagine if you could autodig, no one would complain about repixtures dig times. 18:41 Krock alguien: assume the fields are only sent to players who can see the formspec, that's mistake M°1 18:41 Krock * N°1 18:42 erle CSMs are super cool 18:42 Pexin CSMs wear sunglasses and drive motorcycles. It's true. 18:42 Krock number two being that you might forget to restrict list interactions which would "not be possible" in theory 18:43 alguien Krock, like "read only" fields? 18:43 alguien (not sure if that's a thing in formspec, just guessing) 18:43 Krock and final thought N°3 is that you assume a certain input value. dropdown selected values or table selections can be spoofed and be any invalid value 18:44 Krock more like, actions that the player is not allowed to do with the permissions you give them. 18:45 Pexin alguien: it's the difference between what the formspec can do, and how the formspec is triggered 18:45 Pexin re number 1 18:46 alguien Krock, thanks for the explanation 18:46 erle full recognition before processing, always 18:50 Krock yw 19:20 erle is there a function like minetest.find_nodes_in_area_under_air() that just finds any nodes under air except air nodes? 19:21 erle (most air nodes are under air) 19:22 Krock custom_homebrew_functio394_that_uses_vmanip 19:22 Krock that's the function you'll need 19:23 MTDiscord that, or find_nodes_in_aread_under_air("group:everthing_but_air_group_i_hacked_in") 19:24 MTDiscord also are you sure you really want "under air"? Or maybe you really want "under airlike" or even "under non-sunglight_propagates) ... vmanip would seem like the way to go then. 19:25 Krock group:not_in_creative_inventory,flower,tree,wood,cracky,stone,level,crumbly if you need a hacky temporary solution 19:31 MTDiscord heh, not bad, though not sustainable... 19:31 MTDiscord also, if those are MTG groups, they might not work quite right for a minclon* game. 23:59 fluxionary has anyone ever proposed changing the fluid mechanics in minetest? i'm mostly interested in conversations people had about this in the past, if there were any.