Time Nick Message 00:58 MTDiscord . 11:06 independent56 What block can i use which gives me a blood feel? Can i use red clay superslabs and then use it as blood? 11:07 independent56 Nope, red block frombridger is better 11:09 Noclip[m] independent56: You could also make your own node for that. 11:09 independent56 Yeah... no 11:10 independent56 im far too lazy 11:12 Noclip[m] I've not yet messed with adding new nodes but it's probably just a few lines of code and a PNG texture file. 11:14 independent56 i know 11:22 independent56 Well, now my administrative centre has spanish names for buildings, like "la casa tinto" for execution house or "estacion de tren" for train station. 11:23 independent56 The first translation is a euhanism 11:28 independent56 the red is the blod of countless defectors to the independian regime 11:29 independent56 (blod as in misspelling of blood, not the welsh word for flower) 12:26 Noclip[m] "im far too lazy" <- Mhh, maybe I can do that for you. 12:26 independent56 Is it just me or does minetest artifical light feel lazier? 12:26 Noclip[m] But I'm not promising anything xD 12:26 independent56 Noclip[m], nah, no need to bother 12:27 Noclip[m] independent56: I mean I'm currently messing with the API anyways so this might be a nice learning experience. 12:28 Noclip[m] independent56: What do you mean by that? 12:28 independent56 Ok then, you can make this a small project. Maybe even make it public and then i won't have any obligation to repay with with a favour 12:29 Noclip[m] In Minecraft Redstone is often used for blood so I would just try to make a node which looks similar to that. 12:31 independent56 good idea 12:33 independent56 Challange: make it so that more blood connected will make a higher concentration 12:34 Noclip[m] Uff that makes it directly 10 times more complicated. I first need to understand how to make a custom node ... 12:35 independent56 something like minetest.register_node("firesafety:sign_left",{ 12:35 independent56 (i tried making a mod before) 12:35 independent56 in 2020 third quarter 12:38 Noclip[m] independent56: Looks like mineclone2 actually uses different nodes for different connection stages of redstone. 12:38 independent56 i thought it would be like different textures for the same node 12:44 MTDiscord celeron55: there are some people who aren't being sent their verification emails on the forum. could this be because of the switch to the new server? 12:47 Noclip[m] "i thought it would be like..." <- Actually it looks like they're even using a different model for each stage. 12:48 independent56 wow 12:49 Noclip[m] It's all in mineclone2/mods/ITEMS/REDSTONE/mesecons_wires/init.lua 13:17 Telesight There is a horror mod with blood ;-) 13:18 Noclip[m] Mhh 13:49 grouinos hello, i want to create a mod but i find out minetest since few time, is somebody have a suggest to do it ? 13:50 Noclip[m] What? 13:51 grouinos I need to understand the minetest architecture 13:52 Noclip[m] Ahh, I see. 13:52 sfan5 !book 13:52 MinetestBot sfan5: Minetest Modding Book - https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/ 13:52 grouinos may be i'm in the wrong place for my ask 13:54 Noclip[m] grouinos: No, you're at the right place. 13:55 Noclip[m] Could someone please update the TLS certificate of the MT wiki? 13:56 grouinos this idea come him when i trying different server like edgy with avalon blockcity catlandia and nico's world sub nasa and others 13:58 MTDiscord you'll have to wait until c55 moves the wiki to the new server for that 13:59 Noclip[m] grouinos: To learn more about minetest the wiki is also a great place to start: https://wiki.minetest.net 13:59 grouinos and i have some suggests for these different game 14:00 Noclip[m] Sublayer plank: Mhh, okay. 14:01 grouinos ->noclip : yes I saw but it does not suit me 14:03 grouinos ->noclip : it's the brothel 14:07 grouinos I have a pretty clear idea of what I want to do, but I have to figure out how minetest works 14:08 grouinos my question is: where to start? 14:09 sfan5 you could start reading the API documentation right way https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt 14:09 sfan5 but the modding book I linked above is a better introduction if you've never done it before 14:10 Noclip[m] Nahh, I would start at least with the modding book. 14:10 Noclip[m] The link (once again): https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/ 14:10 grouinos ok, trying 14:10 grouinos thanks 14:12 grouinos no, it's not good 14:13 Noclip[m] What is not good? The modding book? Why not? 14:14 grouinos for example : I want to take the standard character from the beginning to change its appearance 14:16 grouinos when we enter in game for the first time, we have a defaut avatar 14:17 grouinos if i must read all the documentation for know how to do, that don't interest him 14:18 Noclip[m] grouinos: I've no idea how one can do that but I've also plans for doing that so I'm interested in the answer, too. 14:19 Noclip[m] I've just got into modding a few days ago so I'm also still a beginner at it. 14:20 grouinos i want to create a monster who appareance based on standard avatar, sorry for my english, i'm french... 14:20 Noclip[m] grouinos: Are you referring to yourself when you say "him" or is there someone else involved in this? 14:22 grouinos no just me, if i can't have informations to do my mod, i don't do and go to make some draw and craft 14:22 Noclip[m] grouinos: I'm in the country to your right side. 14:23 grouinos french ? 14:24 Noclip[m] Programming isn't something that you learn in 10 minutes, it will take it's time. 14:24 Noclip[m] grouinos: No, germany. 14:25 grouinos i'm not a beginner but i don't know all 14:25 grouinos hello, what's the weather in germany ? 14:26 grouinos i had going 2 time to germany, at berlin 14:28 grouinos to begin, for my prodject, i need to have the avatar to change his appearance with a soft 14:30 grouinos and after, programming comportment 14:30 grouinos if i understand, the langage is lua ? 14:30 Noclip[m] Weather looks good as far as I can tell. 14:31 Noclip[m] Yes, it's lua. 14:31 Noclip[m] grouinos: Do you only want to change the skin or also the model? 14:33 grouinos you know, mobs monster, i want to create 1 monster, with skin based on our skin when begin a game 14:34 grouinos i don't understand difference skin/model 14:35 grouinos when you play, you see other players, the new player have standart skin 14:37 Noclip[m] grouinos: The skin is basically just the color and the model is everything else: Does the entity have arms and legs? If so how many? How tall or big is it? Does it look like a human or rather like a dog? Maybe it looks like a spider. 14:37 rubenwardy grouinos: the modding book is intended to support reading it out of order and skipping chapters 14:38 rubenwardy you'll need to read 3 chapters: Getting Started, Lua scripting (assumping you have no Lua knowledge), and Object, Players and Entities 14:38 Noclip[m] rubenwardy: Ahh great, that's exactly what I've been doing the last days xD 14:38 rubenwardy then you'll need to look at the player_api mod 14:38 rubenwardy learning to program well takes your 10,000 hours, like any other skils 14:41 grouinos ok, i user debian, where is minetest software, i search and don't fing 14:41 grouinos find 14:41 independent56 Telesight, The horro mod uses flowing blood. I want blood i can place, like the one stuck to the concrete floor of the torture chamber 14:44 grouinos well, I think I understood, nothing is possible. I give up. 14:59 MTDiscord don't give up :( 15:05 Noclip[m] rubenwardy: That's 13.7 years if you spend 2 hours per day on minetest! 15:05 rubenwardy only 2 hours? Pfff 15:05 rubenwardy also, don't spend all your time programming with one thing 15:05 rubenwardy that's ineffective 15:06 rubenwardy I probably spent 2 hours a day when in secondary school 15:06 Noclip[m] Oh wait, I read "learning this program well" instead of "learning to program well" ... 15:06 Noclip[m] So I thought 10k hours just for learning minetest ... 15:06 rubenwardy but by college, that was probably more like 4 hours a day - due to fewer hours reserved by lessons 15:06 rubenwardy then by university, basically every waking hour 15:07 rubenwardy and now with a programming job, every sleeping hour too 15:07 rubenwardy it's a problem 15:09 Noclip[m] rubenwardy: But you didn't spend all of that time for university or your job, did you? 15:09 Noclip[m] I mean you're still spending some time participating in the MT community, right? 15:17 rubenwardy Noclip[m]: I'm exaggerating slightly and I have way too many hobby projects 15:18 rubenwardy most recent being Renewed Tab 15:18 MTDiscord This is why I use "x" as a variable name so frequently. If I spread my time out using a bunch of other variable names, then it'll take forever to accumulate 10k hours using any one. 15:20 MTDiscord By the time you are 14 months old you're an expert at everything, though, because your time spent doing everything will add up to 10k hours then. 15:21 Noclip[m] rubenwardy: So you spend that much time on programming because you have fun doing so? 15:21 rubenwardy hahaha yeahhhh funn 15:22 Noclip[m] Is that a No? 15:23 Noclip[m] Why so many hobby projects if not for fun? 15:23 MTDiscord The answer to "is programming fun" is "programmers have an unusual idea of what fun means." 15:24 grouinos i can understand there are a lot of place for programming but not for creativity 15:24 rubenwardy lol, warr, pretty much 15:24 grouinos programming for programming 15:25 MTDiscord Not sure what programming but not creativity means ... try programming without creativity and see how far you get. 15:25 rubenwardy I do find programming fun though 15:26 Noclip[m] "programmers have an unusual idea of what fun means." 15:26 Noclip[m] -> Maybe the better question would then be: Are you happy with what you are doing? 15:26 MTDiscord That would depend on whether your definition of "happy" matches mine 15:26 rubenwardy well, programming is creative but coding not necessarily, I think creativity is more about designing and making something new rather than writing code specifically 15:27 MTDiscord Creativity includes finding unusual paths to an answer, even if the origin and destination are well defined and constrained. 15:27 MTDiscord In fact creativity is given meaning by the constraints; without such things, it's basically just whitenoise. 15:28 rubenwardy Sure, writing code requires some creativity, but I wouldn't consider it enough to be considered a creative task 15:28 rubenwardy I suppose: architecture is creative, but do you consider laying bricks creative? 15:28 rubenwardy the design and writing code do go hand in hand 15:28 MTDiscord You're basically defining writing code as typing 15:28 MTDiscord Sure, typing is not particularly creatie 15:28 grouinos i think there are a little problem with numeric technology 15:29 MTDiscord I'm doing a lot more than just typing when writing code 15:29 Noclip[m] MTDiscord: If you would be depressed because of too much programming for example I would count that as definitely not happy. The opposite of that would be happy then I guess. 15:29 grouinos and this problem with the PROGRAMM 15:29 MTDiscord I would be depressed if I had the incorrect amount of programming in my life, too much or too little. 15:31 Noclip[m] Stealing a programmer's laptop xD 15:31 rubenwardy If I am depressed, I'd blame my landlord for not letting me have a cat 15:32 MTDiscord To me, the act of "programming" is the act of creating software. Sometimes that's just a matter of writing more or less obvious code, for trivial examples. Sometimes it involves a lot of project management work. Sometimes it's a trek from point A to point B and you only need to find the path, while other times it's an odyssey and you don't know quite where it will take you, you only have a general direction in mind. 15:32 Noclip[m] rubenwardy: You can have a rubber duck instead, lol. 15:32 MTDiscord I suppose programming does have some non-creative aspects to it, like copying shit off stack overflow or just typing, but I usually don't associate those activities much with programming because they're not really top-of-mind when I'm doing it. 15:33 rubenwardy I agree that programming is creative 15:34 MTDiscord You could be a programmer without typing at all, e.g. if you exclusively do pair programming and you're always the senior one so you're never the one driving the keyboard. 15:35 grouinos architecture is not creative, it's idea who is creative 15:35 MTDiscord Programming being creative is actually one of the reasons why general AI is an unexpectedly big threat to jobs in programming. 15:36 MTDiscord We sort of assumed that "automation" meant "robots" who would take over the menial work, but it turns out that artificial minds are improving at a pace much faster than artificial bodies are, so it's probably more cerebral fields that are threatened. 15:37 MTDiscord AI will need truck drivers to keep an eye on the payload for a long time, but managing a global shipping network is stuff that AI can easily do from the comfort of the cloud. 15:37 grouinos creativity begins with an idea and materializes with tools 15:37 rubenwardy most physical automation is invisible to consumers - it's in factories, reducing the number of works 15:37 rubenwardy also - self checkout machines 15:37 grouinos and digital tools are flawed 15:37 rubenwardy vending machines, and those coffee machines 15:38 MTDiscord self-checkout and vending machines are an interesting case study because they're not really the kind of automation we would have expected either, and it also represents an interesting cultural shift 15:38 Noclip[m] Well if the AI gets to the point where it can do the planning itself then I would assume that there isn't really anything left which the AI won't be able to do from then on. 15:38 MTDiscord Do you remember people lamenting like 20 or 30 years ago "why do I have to go through the phone menus, why can't I just talk to a person?" 15:38 MTDiscord These days though it's "why do I have to call, why can't I just use your website or email?" 15:39 MTDiscord We have essentially already proven that AI already does pretty much all the fundamentals that meat brains do, and the obstacles it has aren't achieving some essential quality that only humans have, but simply economics and scale. 15:41 grouinos do I need to remind you that an operating system is only a menu offering to choose which software you will use? And that this menu weighs 4 gigabytes 15:41 MTDiscord AI have flexibility of scale in both space and time, which we lack, so basically we're already "the old model" and the thing holding back our obsolescence is the fact that we're dirt cheap compared to AI. 15:42 Noclip[m] Warr1024: So you're saying if we would just throw more power and data at current AIs they would most likely pass human inteligence levels? 15:43 Noclip[m] grouinos: Why 4 gigabytes? 15:44 MTDiscord Depending on how you measure intelligence, I suppose. It also depends on whether you're e.g. comparing an AI against a human, or against humanity. 15:45 grouinos windows and linux weighs more than 4 Gbs 15:45 grouinos there are problem somewhere 15:46 MTDiscord It's not so much though that AI have crossed some special threshold, it's just that we've essentially proven that there never was a threshold, and the special qualities that we have ascribed to humanity is just wishful thinking. We just want to think that we're special because the idea that we're nothing more than a sack of meat with some quantities scaled up to just a bit higher than other sacks of meat apparently terrifies us. 15:46 grouinos you don't want understand, ok, you will see the problem 15:47 MTDiscord I've installed Linux in something like 30MB, so no idea what this 4GB thing is all about. 15:47 grouinos i already see a lot of sign of consequence about the numeric problem 15:47 grouinos you want a list ? 15:47 MTDiscord I never actually got into the whole floppy-disk-sized linux distro thing back in the day, but I was aware it was a thing at the time at least. 15:47 MTDiscord the modern linux kernel is already like 150mb in size now 15:48 MTDiscord linux is pretty big if you have all the modules available and such 15:48 MTDiscord That's probably a good idea for a general-purpose install, i.e. one you don't want to suddenly stop booting if you swap out hardware. 15:49 MTDiscord A BSD kernel tends to be a bit smaller; I think OpenBSD has a monolithic kernel closer to 10MB or something ... but in that case, I've never really been able to trim a full system install down below about 120MB, and I'm sure it's grown since then. 15:49 grouinos i use raspbian (raspios) for x 86 on athlon, because windows 10 is too big, windows xp can't go to internet and i haven't enough money to buy another computer 15:50 Noclip[m] grouinos: Depending on the distribution linux can be far less than 4 Gbs. I think there are distros with less than 50 Mb. 15:51 MTDiscord raspbian on x86 sounds like a kind of odd distro choice, I thought it was mostly for arm raspi machines 15:51 MTDiscord Dunno what happened to our discussion about "creativity" though :-) 15:52 grouinos there is a x86 version on micro usb memory 15:52 MTDiscord It seems like people want to take a word like "creativity" that has positive connotations and define it to have some essential quality that only a human demonstrates so that they can exclude AI and allow themselves to feel special. It's a reasonable defense mechanism, I suppose, but in the end that's all it really is. 15:53 Noclip[m] MTDiscord: 'What, I'm not a holy being created by an almighty god to bring love to the world? That can't be true because I can feel my holiness!' 15:53 grouinos ok mtddiscord, I want to express my creativity, but I can't because the tools are inaccessible to me. 15:54 Noclip[m] " the modern linux kernel is already like 150mb in size now" 15:54 Noclip[m] -> But it's modular so you can remove stuff if you don't need it. 15:54 MTDiscord Heh, well, I don't think that my views on AI actually have much to say about religion either way. 15:55 MTDiscord Pretty much every modern kernel is modular. Linux has runtime-bound modules that you can remove or simply not include the files for. The BSD "monolithic" kernels have modules whose presence is determined at compile-time, and you relink them to add/remove stuff. 15:55 grouinos may be noclip, but inaccessible for a lot of people to use it 15:55 Noclip[m] "i use raspbian (raspios) for x 86 on athlon" 15:55 Noclip[m] -> Imagine using raspberry pi OS on x86, lol. 15:56 Noclip[m] " Dunno what happened to our discussion about "creativity" though :-)" 15:56 Noclip[m] -> Turned into a discussion about weird distro choices apparently ... 15:56 MTDiscord I find it a bit hard to believe that raspbian is an ideal distro to use on x86 ... but I could see how it might be tuned in useful ways, e.g. maybe the assumption that storage is on microSD makes it less storage-heavy and thus better-tuned on machines with slower USB storage. 15:56 grouinos and 150 mbs it's a lot for propose a what software i will use 15:57 MTDiscord The OS is not a menu of what software you can choose to run, it acts as an intermediary between the software and the hardware, so that the software can speak one language but be understood by a wide variety of hardware. 15:58 rubenwardy exactly that 15:58 grouinos i have mecanic hard drive, and mecanic hard drive can be broken easily 15:58 MTDiscord Your idea of what an OS is sounds a lot like what they used to be like in the DOS days, when hardware was simple and not very diverse. 15:58 rubenwardy it also allows multiple pieces of software to run at once on a single computer 15:58 rubenwardy without corrupting each other 15:59 MTDiscord In the DOS days software would basically be given total control of the hardware when it was run, you couldn't run more than one program at a time outside of some special hacks, and each program was responsible for talking directly to many of the devices in the system if they wanted to do anything outside of super-basic functionality like displaying text on the screen. 16:00 MTDiscord It worked fine in the days when what we needed from computers was also similarly simple. 16:00 grouinos i want to say, digital infrastructure is not thinking for optimisation, just to make some jobs for millions personn, thinking logic of the thing 16:01 grouinos and consequence for the life of million other person 16:02 grouinos you don't want to know, you will know 16:02 MTDiscord I don't want to know, but I already know. :-| 16:03 Noclip[m] "define it to have some essential quality that only a human demonstrates" 16:03 Noclip[m] -> Humans are the only species that can make use of external tools which aren't part of their body ... Oh look at this squid, it uses sticks to crack a shell! Or see those monkeys, they can even create their own tools! ... Well that cannot really count of course because they're not humans and their usage of tools isn't really advanced anyways. 16:03 MTDiscord It's pretty easy to think about the inefficiencies of our system and how we could be doing things better, but the cost of optimizing out those inefficiencies is to create inefficiencies elsewhere in the larger system. 16:04 Noclip[m] Just stupid monkeys, they don't have a soul anyways. 16:06 MTDiscord Haha, yeah, if you say something like "if a human has a soul, then a rock does too," then people tend to interpret that as you either saying "then everything has a soul and souls aren't special" or "souls don't exist", and it's not really necessarily one of those or the other, but what people think you meant sometimes says a lot more about them than about you. 16:07 Noclip[m] Warr1024: Raspberry Pi OS has been optimized for the raspberry pi but it is also available for x86, probably because "why not" ... 16:07 Noclip[m] In the end Raspberry Pi OS is just a debian fork so running it on x86 is probably not much different then running debian on x86. 16:08 MTDiscord Yeah, that's sort of the direction I was leaning 16:09 MTDiscord I'm not sure if raspbian does anything really fundamentally raspier than debian does, other than just coming with the bootloader for the pi, and having a few pi-specific setup tools. 16:09 grouinos Animals are individuals in their own right, they do not have the same morphology, by the same language but think like us, whether you admit it or not. 16:09 MTDiscord There could be a few small differences in config. 16:09 Noclip[m] "i have mecanic hard drive, and mecanic hard drive can be broken easily" 16:09 Noclip[m] -> Make sure that you don't hit it with a hammer "by accident" xD 16:10 grouinos yes mtd, i take raspbian because i have some rpi 16:10 MTDiscord Mechanical and solid-state hard drives are not very dissimilar in durability. SSDs have some advantages in some day-to-day threats, but they also have some specific weaknesses that HDDs don't have too... 16:10 grouinos and for have compatibility with software 16:10 MTDiscord Ah, if you have a mix of pi and non-pi machines, then running a single distro across all of them for consistency and ease of maintenance does make sense... 16:11 grouinos i already having problem with mecanical hard drive because a choc, not strong but enough 16:11 MTDiscord you mean like you dropped it? Or you mean like it got an electrical surge? 16:12 MTDiscord or you mean you accidentally smeared chocolate on it :-) 16:12 Noclip[m] grouinos: Todays digital infrastructure is far too complicated and fast evolving to be optimized by such stupid beings as we humans are ... 16:13 grouinos no, I hit the computer without doing it on purpose and I lost data 16:13 Desour did you hit it ... with a chocolate bar? 16:14 Desour aww 16:14 Noclip[m] " I'm not sure if raspbian does anything really [...]" 16:14 Noclip[m] -> Not that I'm aware of, I think it's just that. 16:15 MTDiscord Humans can optimize digital infrastructure, but then that could end up being a less optimal human-digital system overall. It's basically just the laws of thermodynamics. Try to create order somewhere, and you must create an equal or greater amount of chaos somewhere else. 16:16 MTDiscord This is sort of why we don't try to fix every bug, sometimes it just makes more sense overall to learn to accept some imperfection. 16:17 Noclip[m] " Ah, if you have a mix of pi and non-pi machines, then running a single distro across all of them for consistency and ease of maintenance does make sense..." 16:17 Noclip[m] -> I'd probably just install debian on the x86 machine then (if consistency were a goal). 16:17 MTDiscord Heh, or you could say "the bug was caused by reality not meeting our expectations, and we resolved the issue by applying a patch to our expectations." 16:18 Noclip[m] " or you mean you accidentally smeared chocolate on it :-)" 16:18 Noclip[m] -> lol, that was unexpected xD 16:18 MTDiscord I'd probably install debian too, but that may also be because I ran debian for a few years before trying raspbian, so I know the debian side of it pretty well, and that's the subset. Going from superset to subset, though, you have to run into cases where tools you're used to relying on are absent. 16:19 MTDiscord Yeah, I mean, I didn't know what "choc" meant exactly, assumed it was probably a language barrier thing, but who knows, I once nearly broke a CRT monitor by spilling an entire soda into it. 16:20 MTDiscord I ended up draining it out, leaving it unplugged for several days to dry, and then it worked fine for years after that. 16:21 Noclip[m] " This is sort of why we don't try to fix every bug, sometimes it just makes more sense overall to learn to accept some imperfection." 16:21 Noclip[m] I'm a perfectionist, In tests I often end up having done everything right but missing the entire last 30% of the test when the time is over ... 16:22 Pexin but soda is refreshing and fizzy 16:22 Pexin was it diet soda? 16:28 Noclip[m] "I once nearly broke a CRT monitor by spilling an entire soda into it." 16:28 Noclip[m] -> Wanna see my new monitor? Here it is, what do you think? ... Wow, it's really waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, uhh ohh sorry, didn't mean to do that but the soda suddenly came up. I'm sure it won't be broke, we can probably just wipe it away. 16:28 MTDiscord I hear people say "I'm a perfectionist" a lot, sometimes with some sense of pride, but I've usually found that "I struggle with perfectionism" is a more useful way to look at it. What we call perfectionism is more like a flawed balance optimization, wherein resources like attention are poorly distributed across a task. I think everyone struggles with perfectionism in their own way, I'm just lucky that mine has been very manageable. 16:29 MTDiscord Nah, what I learned from the soda debacle is that if you ever need to setup a computer on the floor instead of a desk, then you should similarly move all your beverages lower as well to match. 16:30 Noclip[m] Well you have also people that are done with the test after half the time but end up having 70% wrong ... 16:31 Noclip[m] So there are for sure differences among people. 16:31 Noclip[m] And then there are those how are done after half the time and have everything 100% correct plus all the bonus points. 16:34 Pexin when I started college I was 28 and rusty. placement test put me in basic math 2. I figured assume they know what they're doing. class was wayy too easy, afterward I retook placement and placed in precalc. 16:34 Pexin sometimes you're just Taking The Wrong Test 16:37 Noclip[m] Shit happens 16:37 Noclip[m] And life is complicated for sure. 16:44 MTDiscord The advantage to finishing the test in half the time but getting shit 70% wrong is that you have time to take a second pass and pick up some of your mistakes. You've also done all the problems so you have a better overview of the whole field, and thus better information for prioritizing your attention. It's an optimization problem where you want to improve your ability to optimally allocate attention in subsequent passes vs. the 16:44 MTDiscord overhead costs of increased task-switching. 16:46 MTDiscord Sometimes it's not even a matter of You're Taking The Wrong Test, it might just be a matter of The Right Test Doesn't Even Exist And Might Not Even Be Possible. 16:46 Noclip[m] Well some people just wanna be done with the test as fast as possible and don't mind looking over it again. 16:47 MTDiscord I did notice that I did a lot better on tests where I finished early and spent the last 10% of my time checking my answers instead of finishing early and just bailing out early. 16:48 MTDiscord Life is a little like that in some ways, but life also often has a next test you could (and maybe should) be starting on early, so the optimal solution tends to be more complicated. 16:48 Noclip[m] We shouldn't forget that the goal is learning and not having a perfect test ... 16:48 MTDiscord Haha, the goal in school is not learning ... you learn in life; you go to school simply to demonstrate to the system that you're capable of working with it. 16:49 Noclip[m] Kinda true 16:50 MTDiscord Well, I suppose schools do create an environment in which learning is available to you, and also offer you challenges to motivate learning. But learning is really something that you have to internalize; thinking about it as a "school" thing is at least sort of unhealthy. 16:51 MTDiscord School in at least Western society also serves as a tool to measure your performance in a number of metrics that we assume are useful proxies for estimating your future performance, i.e. a lot of the reason you go to school is to prove that you'll be able to job. 16:51 Pexin school taught me to do the assignments they gave me. this did not prepare me well for college. in fact I was mostly through grad school before I figured it out. too late. 16:52 Pexin without My Own Goal, it was professionally useless 16:53 Pexin #minetest - "therapy sharing" 16:54 MTDiscord I'm wary of categorically dismissing schools as being useless for education, because it's possible that they do a good job of serving some population that I just am not part of ... but yeah, if I had relied on schools to teach me instead of self-teaching, I don't think I'd have gotten very acceptable results. 16:55 MTDiscord Actually discussion of education is sort of on-topic for Minetest, since use as an educational tool is a common and valuable role for it. 16:55 Pexin but... lua... :| 16:55 Desour lua is nice 16:55 MTDiscord Whining about lua ? 16:56 MTDiscord Lua or not lua is pretty irrelevant to MT's purpose in education, or really anywhere... 16:59 Noclip[m] Wanna know what makes me really sad?: In our capitalistic systems a lot of people are working very much and very hard and some of them are working way too much and too hard which often results in mental or physical health issues or at least a reduced quality of life. The question why I keep asking myself recently over and over is this: How many of all the working people are actually working on something which is beneficial to humanity? 17:00 Pexin Noclip[m]: you have no idea how often I think about that 17:00 MTDiscord tbf I've considered whether Fennel would be a better language for MT modding, but I think Lua is ultimately closer to the sweet spot, and a project needs to be pretty big before the economies of scale that metaprogramming via Fennel compensates adequately for the overhead costs of the syntax. 17:00 Pexin the majority of occupations in the developed world are busywork that have been invented/perpetuated just so people have shit to do, running themselves frantic just so they don't starve homeless. the amount of work that actually needs to be done is pretty small 17:01 Pexin if the unnecessary work could be eliminated or scaled down, and the necessary work streamlined in ways industry doesn't want for reasons, everything that Needs to get done would still get done and everyone would have way more free time 17:01 MTDiscord Re: beneficial to humanity, humans are conscious, but humanity itself is only conscious on a very different timescale, and it has not learned to do much more than reactively respond to its environment and keep itself more or less alive so far. 17:02 Pexin the entities that are in a position to work toward postscarcity are the same entities with a vested interest in perpetuating the current system because they are Winning Capitalism 17:02 * Pexin is a hipster... crying_emoji 17:03 MTDiscord The sloppiness of life is fractal; it exists at every scale. If you try to think too hard about what should be, you can drive yourself nuts. It's comforting to know, though, that the fact that we can even think about these problems is itself an improvement from the way we were before. 17:04 Pexin remember the jetsons? mostly automated society, but they still assumed capitalism would provide jobs where you literally press a single button all day :x 17:05 * Pexin stops now 17:05 Noclip[m] You can have the best degree, wage or reputation in the world but what does that help you if you're not happy with what you're doing and at the same time actually working on pushing humanity towards a worse future?! 17:06 MTDiscord I don't think we're pushing humanity toward a necessarily worse future ... but it may be fair to say that we're pushing humanity toward an Unpleasant Learning Experience :-) 17:07 Pexin I lied I'm not done. if you run out of chores at home, that's not a crisis, that's optimal. but at the national or economic scale "unemployment" is a horrible tragedy 17:08 MTDiscord On a small scale, you typically aren't worrying about the time limit on your existence :P 17:08 MTDiscord The idea that all people must be employed in some economically gainful Job is a bias in the Western world (though supposedly strongest in the USA) that we may have to unlearn. 17:08 MTDiscord I'm not really worried about running out of time; actually if I turned out to be immortal (and it's hard to tell the actual risk of this given my sample size) that would probably throw a monkey wrench into my plans. 17:09 Pexin covid was _supposed_ to teach society the difference between essential jobs and non-essential. among other things. it clearly isn't working 17:10 MTDiscord Haha, you make it sound like they grew it in a lab for that specific purpose XD 17:10 Pexin if everyone had free time and free education, we could have more medical researchers and figure out clinical immortality in 20 years 17:12 Noclip[m] "but humanity itself is only conscious on a very different timescale" 17:12 Noclip[m] -> Inteligence and consciousness seem to somehow shorten out increasingly if you look at more and more humans at a time. The behaviour of the whole humanity seems fairly calculatable for not too long time scales. 17:13 MTDiscord Immortality may already be a thing. All universes in which you die become unobservable to you, so therefore as time carries on, other people die in the universes which you can observe, but you never do. Eventually everyone is left more or less alone, each in their own universe. 17:15 MTDiscord I've been saying for a few years that H. P. Lovecraft may be considered the father of the Cosmic Horror genre, but he's got nothing on Wikipedia. We may be drawn to read cosmic horror fiction because it's way less terrifying than cosmic horror nonfiction. 17:15 Pexin hipster threshold passed, I'm out :] 17:15 Desour > Haha, you make it sound like they grew it in a lab for that specific purpose XD 17:15 Desour https://coronalabs.com/ 17:16 Noclip[m] " I don't think we're..." <- Climate catastrophy? Proprietary spyware everywhere outside our little foss bubble? The list goes on ... 17:16 MTDiscord Haha, when did they change the definition of "hipster"? 17:17 MTDiscord Happens to any overused buzzword, especially negative ones. 17:18 MTDiscord Or at least, those that get used negatively. 17:18 MTDiscord Hipster sounds like the name of MP3 sharing software for people who believe in free love and drugs ... but then maybe that's just me showing my age. :-/ 17:19 erlehmann the scaling of the menu icons generates ugly jagged edges. anyone knows what to do about it? 17:19 erlehmann here is an example PR to figure that out https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/139 17:20 Noclip[m] " Immortality may already be a thing. All universes in which [...]" 17:20 Noclip[m] -> That's not really better than any other religion, it's pure speculation and has nothing todo with sience. 17:20 MTDiscord I committed a fix for that aliasing issue to the engine like 5 years ago ... I guess it's a question of (1) was that solution used in that place, and (2) is your configuration correct. 17:21 MTDiscord Noclip: what does science have to do with it? 17:21 Pexin @Warr1024 nothing at all. pay attention :] 17:21 Pexin (hoho) 17:21 MTDiscord ho 17:21 erlehmann Warr1024 could you please point me to the fix? 17:22 MTDiscord Lemme check my own install first and see if mine behaves differently 17:22 MTDiscord Yeah, looks like mine are okay... 17:22 erlehmann the thing is, 72x72 works on two of my machines and one from my friends. but 96x96 does not work. and how mineclone2 came to use 103x103 … 17:23 erlehmann no idea 17:24 MTDiscord Okay, the fix was made available, but is apparently still disabled by default even after all these years 17:24 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L1017 17:24 erlehmann so the thing is, if the icon is scaled it looks bizarre. but i have not found anything else besides 72x72 that looks good on my machines. 17:24 erlehmann regardless, no actual icon i have seen with other mods is 72x72 17:24 MTDiscord MT does not have a way to specify layouts to require integer scaling, which means it's forced to deal with non-integer scaling. 17:25 MTDiscord It contains code that makes it possible to produce the least-shitty-possible final result of a non-integer scaling, but apparently it's disabled by default. 17:25 erlehmann lol 17:25 erlehmann so the solution is … 17:25 erlehmann gui_scaling_filter = true 17:25 erlehmann ??? 17:26 MTDiscord Yeah, a lot of things get fixed but then left disabled by default perpetually because somebody would demand we reenable spacebar heating. 17:26 MTDiscord try it, I think it should work. 17:26 erlehmann that sounds like it does not work reliably 17:26 Noclip[m] " Noclip: what does science have to do with it?" 17:26 Noclip[m] -> Nothing?! But many people think about science if they hear "universes" while it's (in this case) actually just fiction and hasn't really anthing todo with science. Honestly I do not even understand why you came up with that. What's your message? Was it some sort of joke? 17:27 MTDiscord Haha, it still talks about Render-to-Texture ... how many platforms are even still doing that? Are there even any now? 17:27 rubenwardy well, searching for `gui_scaling_filter` the first thing I find is an issue where sfan5 asks why it's not enabled by default 17:27 rubenwardy I believe I looked into why it wasn't enabled by default, but I can't remember what the situation is 17:28 rubenwardy should either be enabled by default or documented better :P 17:29 MTDiscord Noclip: science is not the sole purveyor of truth. We have actually scientifically proven that some things are unknowable; we've got Godel and Heisenberg and the like. Science also only generates predictive models of the way things behave, but does not assign meaning to them. You could argue that things don't have meaning if that meaning cannot be proven ... but then the fact that I ascribe meaning to them that is unprovable is 17:29 MTDiscord itself meaningless and not really worth discussing. 17:29 rubenwardy tl;dr: warr is not being serious 17:30 rubenwardy after all, warr never changes 17:30 MTDiscord I was being about as serious as Wikipedia is in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality 17:30 * Pexin blinks at rubenwardy 17:30 erlehmann what 17:31 MTDiscord I think it wasn't enabled by default because we wanted to wait and let it "stabilize" first. I think it has done that. 17:31 erlehmann well, a not-enabled setting is not necessarily stable 17:32 MTDiscord And how exactly would it get stable then, other than enabling it? 17:33 erlehmann looks much better lol 17:33 MTDiscord We have this bizarre "improve everything that can be improved without getting rid of any of the old bugs or behavioral quirks that people might be relying on" mission that's not really actually solvable. 17:33 erlehmann i hope no one is relying on shitty scaling 17:33 rubenwardy you're making these statement with no context whatsoever 17:33 Noclip[m] Warr1024: Science is methode, not more but also not less. 17:33 erlehmann what rubenwardy says 17:33 MTDiscord Backward compatibility should be about providing a path or options, not about never changing anything. 17:33 rubenwardy for all I know, this setting could be fundamentally broken and segfault on Windows 17:34 Pexin *sniff* forced backward compat? smells like 2000s microsoft 17:34 MTDiscord Where is the evidence of that? 17:34 MTDiscord The problem here is that the burden of proof is structured such that it's impossible to move forward. 17:34 Noclip[m] "Quantum suicide is a thought experiment in quantum mechanics" (from wikipedia) 17:34 Noclip[m] -> You never said anything about a thought experiment ... 17:35 rubenwardy rather than hand waving, it would be appreciated if the actual reason it was disabled could be found - or, if none can be found, then it can be enabled and we'll find out in time 17:36 MTDiscord Yeah, that would have been nice. 17:36 Pexin well, in the next release, with all the irrlicht stuff happening, people should expect lots of instability anyway. good opportunity? 17:36 Noclip[m] " We have this bizarre "improve everything that can be improved without getting rid of any of the old bugs or behavioral quirks that people might be relying on" mission that's not really actually solvable." 17:36 Noclip[m] -> Well you have that issue everywhere to some degree. 17:37 MTDiscord The reason it was initially disabled was because it was disabled prior to it existing, i.e. I was told that when we add a thing, we always keep the default behavior the same as it was before. The reason it was not enabled since then is anyone's guess; I was not here for most of that. 17:37 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/6d61375cc72bad5c569d25c253adca4e3701dd27 17:37 Noclip[m] "for all I know, this setting could be fundamentally broken and segfault on Windows" 17:37 Noclip[m] -> Who needs Windows anyways? (Just kidding) 17:37 rubenwardy disabled since the start 17:37 MTDiscord Yes, it went in as disabled by default for a probationary period 17:37 rubenwardy That's not true 17:37 MTDiscord one which had no end condition. 17:38 rubenwardy you don't need to keep the default behaviour as before, not all behaviour is a matter of compatibility 17:38 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2536 17:38 MTDiscord I originally wanted to submit it enabled by default so that it would get actual usage and testing, but was told that was wrong. 17:38 rubenwardy is there an IRC discussion for this? I can't see any context in the GitHub PR 17:39 MTDiscord No idea, probably I guess? 17:39 MTDiscord This feature was highly bikeshedded when it went in, there was a lot of "but you'll break Minetest's nice pixely look" and "why is my stuff blurry now" talk. 17:40 Desour is it just me or was github's design changed again a bit? 17:40 rubenwardy I don't see why it would make stuff blurry? Doesn't it _fix_ pixel art rendering? 17:40 Desour the line numbers in the diffs seem more black 17:40 MTDiscord Ironically the demonstrated use, i.e. for inventory images, isn't even relevant anymore, it now only affects things like GUI images, titles, icons, etc. because inventory items themselves are actually 3D rendered now on (at least almost) all platforms and thus subject to hardware AA and not to image handling. 17:41 MTDiscord It unbreaks pixel art as much as it's possible to. 17:41 rubenwardy https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2015-04-01#i_4208555 17:42 erlehmann rubenwardy Warr1024 i have found the negative impact of the setting 17:43 Noclip[m] And? 17:43 erlehmann with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures seem to load immediately. with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures do not load immediately, but have noticeable lag. 17:43 rubenwardy V*nessaE imho, you should turn the clean-transparent feature on by default, btw 17:43 rubenwardy sorry for not mentioning that sooner. 17:43 rubenwardy h*mmm no i disabled that by default because people were crashing from it 17:44 rubenwardy is this a different PR? 17:44 MTDiscord Yes, different 17:44 MTDiscord Also if people were crashing from it, it seems like maybe we should have gotten that bug fixed and then backed out the "emergency" disabling? 17:44 erlehmann err 17:44 erlehmann sorry 17:44 erlehmann again 17:44 erlehmann with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures seem to load immediately. with “gui_scaling_filter = true” the menu background pictures do not load immediately, but have noticeable lag. 17:45 MTDiscord I don't know what happened to clean_transparent either. I know the feature exists, and I use it, but I don't know what the default config for it is. 17:45 erlehmann sorry, i have bad internet 17:45 rubenwardy we received it 17:45 erlehmann with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures seem to load immediately. with “gui_scaling_filter = true” the menu background pictures do not load immediately, but have noticeable lag. 17:45 rubenwardy yes, for the third time :D 17:45 MTDiscord tbh I just never really paid much attention to default config, especially since I wasn't a core dev, and I assumed that the correct way to handle config is to tune it to your own liking and your own devices and test it yourself rather than just trusting the defaults. 17:45 erlehmann that is a good enough justification to not eable it imo 17:46 rubenwardy eh, the defaults should be good for most users as most users won't dive into them 17:46 erlehmann rubenwardy i typoed it the first time 17:46 sfan5 rubenwardy: the implementation is sort of a hack 17:46 erlehmann and with not “not immediately” i mean “entire interface hangs for the better part of a second” 17:47 erlehmann i think it tries to scale the menu background too? 17:47 MTDiscord The implementation is more or less "reference implemenation" level of optimized and could theoretically be improved, it's just beyond me personally 17:47 rubenwardy This setting had a lack of communication and built up resentment, leading to "spacebar heating up" claims that I don't even know where that came from. If a feature has a bug, there should be an issue for it 17:47 MTDiscord ideally in fact it would be better to send these images to the GPU and let the GPU do the filtering in a shader 17:47 rubenwardy "disabling until it because stable" doesn't work, as it'll never be tested 17:47 erlehmann that would probably lag even morelol 17:48 erlehmann well i just tested it. it works, but it slows down the main menu on a machine that can otherwise play minetest just fine (T60) 17:48 MTDiscord Heh, "built up resentment" sounds kind of like overselling it to me... 17:48 MTDiscord Unless you are aware of some additional resentment I don't know about. 17:49 erlehmann Warr1024 let's say you had not the most diplomatic approach 17:49 erlehmann regardless 17:49 MTDiscord I'm aware of my cynicism but that was not due to any one specific issue. 17:50 Noclip[m] So should I keep that setting on now or turn it back off again? 17:50 rubenwardy if it performs well for you, keep it on 17:50 rubenwardy the only issue I can see is performance 17:50 MTDiscord It's basically a quality/speed tradeoff 17:50 erlehmann yeah “gui_scaling_filter = true” delivers a worse experience on low-end machines than some ugly icons do 17:50 Noclip[m] Only in menus or also ingame? 17:50 erlehmann i try ingame now 17:50 rubenwardy in menu 17:50 rubenwardy and in-game GUIs 17:51 rubenwardy not when playing the game with GUIs closed, from what I can tell 17:51 erlehmann ingame i get an error, ding ding ding 17:51 Noclip[m] How about HUDs which are displayed while playing? 17:51 MTDiscord It may ultimately be unrealistic that we expect to ship a single set of fixed settings that work for all clients and provide both speed on low-end systems, and enough quality on high-end systems to satisfy all users. 17:52 * jonadab wonders whether it's more work to make digiline chests queryable as to their current contents, or to make autocrafters support putting in a recipe with "group:foo" so they can use anything in the group. 17:52 erlehmann 2021-08-25 19:51:04: ERROR[Main]: Irrlicht: Invalid size of image for OpenGL Texture. 17:52 Noclip[m] Yea, get an error here, too! 17:52 Noclip[m] Yup, same error. 17:52 MTDiscord Ah, I've seen that message too, didn't know where it was coming from. 17:52 rubenwardy the workaround for that is with quality presets 17:52 Pexin mmmmmmmmmmmmmm autocrafters that use groupssssssssss 17:52 rubenwardy I have a PR for groups with autocrafters 17:52 sfan5 that error is easy to fix, I looked at the code before 17:52 MTDiscord It said "error" but it behaved like a warning so I mostly just ignored it. 17:53 * Noclip[m] is going to turn the feature off again. 17:53 sfan5 but fundamentally there are other issues with the code that should also be solved 17:53 rubenwardy Pexin, jonadab: https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/pipeworks/-/merge_requests/12 17:53 erlehmann Warr1024 a bunch of desktop systems manage to scale icons on systems that have the computing power of a shriveled potato, so minetest should be able to do it 17:53 MTDiscord Turn the feature off if the error is enough of a problem to you. It hasn't been a problem for me so far. 17:53 Noclip[m] Ohh wait, the ESC menu in mineclone2 is completely fucked up! 17:53 rubenwardy That patch is blocked by the fact that it only supports outputs with only one recipe 17:53 erlehmann “It said "error" but it behaved like a warning so I mostly just ignored it.” is straight up supervillain style ^^ 17:54 jonadab rubenwardy: Oh wow. 17:54 * jonadab is gonna test that for sure. 17:54 MTDiscord It would actually be fairly simple to do an integer-nearest-up-linear-down scaling, esp if there were accelerated primitives. The code I submitted essentially emulates this behavior in a single pass, which means no accel, it happens on the CPU (and actually in fact, the FPU) so it could be optimized by someone who knows about such things. 17:54 erlehmann Noclip[m], the escape menu? 17:55 MTDiscord Haha, if by "supervillain" you mean "ordinary user", yeah, I was one of those for most of my MT days. 17:56 erlehmann oh lol yes the mineclonia inventory interface is also cursed if you do it 17:57 rubenwardy erlehmann: may I suggest making a forumtopic / ContentDB entry for mineclonia? People on the forums were struggling to find the git for it 17:57 erlehmann in conclusion, “gui_scaling_filter = false” is probably the right choice as a default, as the “gui_scaling_filter = true” makes menu icons nicer, but breaks pictures in formspecs and makes the main menu laggy. 17:57 erlehmann rubenwardy ok! 17:57 MTDiscord If I could have made it work better, then I would have at the time. 17:57 jonadab Wait, rubenwardy, that is a LOT of commits. 17:58 rubenwardy it's a single commit 17:58 rubenwardy lol 17:58 MTDiscord Breakage of formspec images sounds new to me, but then, formspecs have gone through a LOT of development since the scaling was introduced. 17:58 jonadab rubenwardy: Gitlab says it's 69 commits. 17:58 rubenwardy that's how far it's behind master 17:58 erlehmann Warr1024 try mineclonia or mcl2 with the setting enabled, press escape or look at the player inventory 17:58 rubenwardy which isn't necessarily a problem, only if there are conflicts 17:58 rubenwardy I'll rebase now 17:58 * jonadab will have to do git cherry -v later. 17:58 MTDiscord If it's broken then maybe those should be filed as bugs. Just because there's a bug that's specific to non-default config doesn't mean it's not a legit bug; we aim to support non-default config too. 17:59 MTDiscord Nice 17:59 jonadab Oh, I see. 17:59 jonadab 69 commits behind, that's different. 17:59 erlehmann lewd 17:59 jonadab Sorry, not used to looking at the gitlab web interface. 17:59 MTDiscord You mean noice 17:59 jonadab Normally I use git from the command line. 18:00 MTDiscord okay, gimmesec, may take a bit to get one of the mineclone games installed... 18:00 jonadab I see, commit 3a8982a6 is what I want. 18:00 rubenwardy there we go, 0 behind master 18:00 MTDiscord Mineclone takes a while to clone 18:00 MTDiscord where is mineclonia btw? 18:00 Noclip[m] lul 18:00 MTDiscord I wonder if pulling mineclonia from git will be faster than an MCL2 zip from CDB 18:01 Noclip[m] Is mineclonia just another name for mineclone or is there actually something with that name? 18:01 MTDiscord Pulling Mineclone is slower than CDB zip, unless the CDB zip contains the full .git dir OFC 18:01 rubenwardy https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/ 18:01 rubenwardy once you have it git cloned, updating should be faster than CDB zip though 18:01 erlehmann mineclonia is mineclone 0.71 with less crashes, less lag and less features than mineclone 5 18:01 MTDiscord I guess I'll have to see whether git.minetest.land and git are faster or slower than MT and CDB 18:01 rubenwardy Noclip[m]: mineclonia is a fork of Mineclone 2 18:01 erlehmann oh and mobs are not broken 18:02 erlehmann i meant mineclone2 0.71 sorry 18:02 rubenwardy (ha - "less features" implies that mineclone 5 has uncountable features, which would explain why the fork was necessary) 18:02 Noclip[m] Why do we have so many mcl2 forks right now? 18:02 rubenwardy probably because Wuzzy stopped development 18:03 jonadab Personally, I'm working on a Dreambuilder fork; but I haven't pushed it anyplace public. 18:03 erlehmann mineclone2 had a “move fast and break things” approach after wuzzy left (mostly due to fleckenstein, who contributed and refactored *a lot* but did not like reviews, he has since come around i think) 18:03 Noclip[m] But wuzzy officially gave developement over to other devs. 18:04 rubenwardy Noclip[m]: yeah, but with a change of management comes a change of practices. As erlehmann has said 18:04 Noclip[m] erlehmann: ah okay 18:04 erlehmann also jordan4ibanez (famous through crafter) tried to refactor mobs but stopped halfway through … but he did it on the master branch 18:04 rubenwardy oh grim 18:04 MTDiscord https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/commit/62d5b547a0ffa3361ab4460d09f22403c3facf87 18:04 MTDiscord smells like ducttape 18:04 MTDiscord Okay, got it running 18:04 MTDiscord what am I looking for for breakage? 18:05 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/880150859189731388/screenshot_20210825_140508.png 18:05 erlehmann just press escape and look at the buttons 18:05 MTDiscord ah, the esc menu? 18:05 MTDiscord yeah, the buttons look weird ... 9-patches? 18:05 Noclip[m] jordan4ibanez = oilboy? 18:05 erlehmann yes Noclip[m] 18:06 erlehmann also many mcl2 devs had high-end gaming pcs and wanted to do stuff *exactly like minecraft* even if detrimental to performance 18:06 erlehmann like if something drops 15 plant pieces, create 15 object entities instead of one 18:06 jonadab Oh, eww. 18:07 MTDiscord 15 objects should be nothing for a decent engine 18:07 Noclip[m] He showed with crafter that he truely has a lot of potential but unfortunately he seems to quiet out of projects quite fast. 18:07 MTDiscord Unfortunately Minetest isn't a decent engine 18:07 erlehmann well, a bug report that complained about this behaviour freezing the game with an overenchanted sword (looting 32k) was renamed to “post your computer's specs” 18:07 MTDiscord 9-patches didn't exist at the time the GUI scaling filter was introduced. I don't see why they should have been broken when using those two together, nevertheless. 18:07 jonadab Yes, @luatic, but the cumulative effect when somebody builds a farm... 18:07 erlehmann nah, just harvesting kelp is enough to impact old machines 18:07 MTDiscord Heh, re: the 15 objects instead of 1, I actually take a compromise position, i.e. there are times when I create 4 objects of 2 items each... 18:08 erlehmann there was just a lot of drama mainly because the devs had different ideas and the users also 18:08 erlehmann though i must say i think some drama was extremely stupid 18:09 MTDiscord You can't make something that makes everybody happy, ultimately, you just need to figure out where you want to balance things, and for a game with a large enough audience, you'll probably end up with a lot of forks and remakes. 18:09 jonadab I mean, the only reason to mimic another piece of software THAT precisely would be if you're creating a bug-for-bug clone for compatibility purposes. Which would imply that you intend to be able to load the other software's files (or worlds, in this case). 18:09 erlehmann like fleck wanting to remove river water and about 100 other things (bc it is not in minecraft 1.12 or so?) and it took a long post from wuzzy to make him see the error of his ways. 18:09 erlehmann i think everyone works better together now 18:09 MTDiscord My stuff hasn't been forked much but I'm starting to see some spiritual remakes... 18:09 Noclip[m] "well, a bug report that complained about this behaviour freezing the game with an overenchanted sword (looting 32k) was renamed to “post your computer's specs”" 18:09 Noclip[m] -> lol 18:09 erlehmann mineclonia is basically people from clamity wanting a stable game with less lag 18:10 erlehmann and mineclone5 is kay27 and some other devs who think that flecks approach to clone 1 minecraft version perfectly is not fun 18:12 MTDiscord It looks like the bug is that 9-patch buttons break when gui_scaling_filter is enabled. It seems like it stretches each image to 1/3 of the space in each dimension, instead of scaling the middle parts up and leaving the ends unscaled. 18:13 MTDiscord I have no idea why it would do that; it seems like the 9-patch should have been done such that the filter would end up as a noop. 18:13 erlehmann in the end, mineclonia is mostly fixing crashes and lag. lag was very bad with mineclone2 because of stuff like “have a globalstep that tells the client to change FOV to X if not sprinting and Y if sprinting” – it is impossible to *notice* any lag if you test that only on localhost … but it is bad code. 18:13 rubenwardy Noclip[m]: intensity often leads to burnout 18:13 Noclip[m] "like fleck wanting to remove river water and about 100 other things (bc it is not in minecraft 1.12 or so?) and it took a long post from wuzzy to make him see the error of his ways." 18:13 Noclip[m] -> Uff. Thank wuzzy for stepping in then. 18:14 Noclip[m] *Thanks to wuzzy 18:14 rubenwardy lol yeah, removing river water would break MT mapgen 18:14 erlehmann rubenwardy according to his own admission, fleck has learned writing code from reading other mods until he could do it reasonably, not from your book. 18:15 rubenwardy well, that's also how I learned to mod Minetest 18:15 erlehmann yeah but the problem was that way he was not aware of some common pitfalls 18:15 erlehmann he just made stuff that *worked* (on his machine) 18:15 rubenwardy the book allows me to share the knowledge I gained from doing so 18:15 Noclip[m] Ohh while we're at it: Warr1024, has nodecore now sufficient support for riverwater and the valleys mapgen? 18:16 erlehmann if you want to see the difference in attention to detail in mineclonia, read the commit messages before and after we forked 18:16 MTDiscord River water vs water is such a dumpster fire 18:17 MTDiscord No support planned specifically for the valleys mapgen. I just didn't specifically disable that option because I guess I didn't want to say you couldn't do it if you were willing to accept the consequences ... but I guess I should probably just disable it after all... 18:17 MTDiscord At least you have the option off using one water or the other globally depending on mapgen 18:17 MTDiscord There are already twice as many kinds of water in NodeCore as there should be, I don't want to add a 3rd one just because some mapgen decided it needed to do something weird and require yet another kind of water that doesn't mix with other waters. 18:18 erlehmann btw i don't think fleck is a bad person or something. he has big ideas and strong opinions. and he is not a good leader. but since we forked it was much nicer (because it removed sources of conflict). 18:18 MTDiscord Or you could just have mapgen fill in rivers with your dirt equivalent 18:18 erlehmann also fleck made one of the two important cheat clients (dragonfire, the other is waspsaliva) 18:18 MTDiscord I guess I could look into aliasing it with air instead of non-river water, so you could just generate dry riverbeds. Or maybe something like gravel or sand. 18:19 Noclip[m] "Noclip: intensity often leads to burnout" 18:19 Noclip[m] -> What are you referring to here? 18:19 MTDiscord The other is based on the former 18:19 erlehmann Warr1024 what is your issue with river water? 18:19 erlehmann river water is important to make nice fountains ^^ 18:20 MTDiscord Anyway, I'm gonna file an issue about this 9-patch filter thing, unless there's already another one, or someone else wants to... 18:20 MTDiscord Honestly the minetest liquid system in general is full of issues with not much control 18:20 MTDiscord is that what they're actually called, btw? 18:21 MTDiscord Yeah, I'm wary of introducing more liquids when I already have so many and there are a lot of issues with how they interact. Especially having a 3rd kind of just water alone would be weird. 18:21 MTDiscord Background9 in formspecs 18:21 MTDiscord ah, 9 slice, not 9 patch 18:21 MTDiscord Yes 18:22 MTDiscord Huh, looks like it's been examined before but the solution may have been partial? Is that what this means? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/9896 18:22 erlehmann Warr1024 thank you for figuring it out 18:23 MTDiscord hmm, seems like it's orthogonal to 9-slice actually, maybe just incidental that that was where it was being seen. 18:23 Noclip[m] "btw i don't think fleck is a bad person or something. he has big ideas and strong opinions. and he is not a good leader. but since we forked it was much nicer (because it removed sources of conflict)." 18:23 Noclip[m] -> Yea, I don't want to talk bad about fleck either. Since wuzzy left mcl2 there seem to have been a ton of new features to mcl2 which I really like. 18:23 MTDiscord It's looking like a new issue. 18:24 Noclip[m] And in the end Minetest developement should make fun of course! 18:24 MTDiscord I make fun of development all the time. 18:25 Noclip[m] "also fleck made one of the two important cheat clients (dragonfire, the other is waspsaliva)" 18:25 Noclip[m] -> Yea, that's awsome, too! Isn't waspsaliva a fork of dragonfire? 18:26 erlehmann waspsaliva does everything cool with client side lua mods 18:26 erlehmann dragonfire does a lot of stuff with C++ i think? 18:27 erlehmann IMO the most important distinction is that WS has cheats in the git repo, whereas DF has cheatdb, which is like contentdb for cheats 18:27 erlehmann i think that was it 18:27 Noclip[m] Warr1024: You could add river water only as decoration. 18:28 erlehmann luatic the reason behind https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/commit/62d5b547a0ffa3361ab4460d09f22403c3facf87 is that these objects exist in real-world servers and should not crash the server 18:29 erlehmann minetest 5.3 allowed people to put shulkers in shulkers due to an inventory switching bug i think 18:29 erlehmann so naturally … there are “kits”. shulkers loaded with special items. 18:30 erlehmann but even without that, just putting a few books or enchanted items into a shulker would do the trick 18:30 Noclip[m] I've never used a MT cheat client. Can you recommend them? Are they usefull for creative mode or dev stuff? 18:30 rubenwardy they're useful for cheating 18:30 rubenwardy for creative, not so much really - you can already fly in creative 18:30 erlehmann Noclip[m], waspsaliva is very useful for building stuff. cora (the main dev) has some neat hacks. 18:30 rubenwardy they're useful for testing for vulnerabilities 18:31 rubenwardy oh really, what does it have? I've only tried DF 18:31 erlehmann if you ever see heart shaped nether portals, they were autospammed by cora with a csm 18:31 erlehmann (probably, i made a few myself) 18:31 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11574 18:32 erlehmann Noclip[m], rubenwardy so a thing that sounds simple, but is so cool for building is “place this node in my currently selected slot on every node of type x” 18:32 MTDiscord DF = dragonfire is always confusing to me, because I think I run into more dwarf fortress players than forked client users. 18:32 erlehmann which means you can for example build a tower very easily 18:33 erlehmann just make the base outline on the ground, then repeatedly spam the “put stone brick on existing stone brick” function 18:33 erlehmann until you reach the desired height 18:33 erlehmann rubenwardy a lot of that stuff is useful for creative 18:33 erlehmann because cora is super rich on many servers she is active on due to autominers and dupes 18:34 erlehmann so she is basically playing half-creative mode ^^ 18:34 MTDiscord Heh, feels like a number of those should be made available as MT server-side mods if they're really that useful, so that people using the official client (which has broader distribution channels in some cases) could benefit too. 18:34 erlehmann na, the placement mods are really client side mods 18:34 erlehmann also there are waypoints and copy-paste-mode (i think it was: you build something, the csm records it, you can play it back) 18:35 MTDiscord I'm not saying they ARE server-side mods, I'm saying they COULD be. 18:35 erlehmann whoever believes “cheat clients” are mainly used for cheating should look at the stuff that exists on clamity server 18:35 erlehmann i fail to see how “record my personal waypoints” could be server side. or “chat in an encrypted way with my teammate” 18:35 MTDiscord like, as in, I wouldn't mind seeing those features become available elsewhere, where appropriate and not considered cheating, and not require CSM stuff necessarily. 18:36 MTDiscord e2e encrypted chat probably couldn't be. Personal waypoint recording, auto-building, etc. could be. 18:36 erlehmann no, because then others can know your waypoints? also you could not record a schematic on one server and place it on the other. 18:36 specing Why would these be server side mods? That's unnecessary load 18:37 MTDiscord ? 18:37 specing Why record personal waypoints on the server? Waste of disk space 18:37 Noclip[m] The clients offer e2ee chat? 18:37 Noclip[m] The argument with placing it on another server seems valid. 18:38 erlehmann also which server is going to install killaura 18:38 sfan5 none, because server admins probably consider that cheating 18:38 erlehmann client side mods with an extended API (a la waspsaliva) are really cool 18:39 Noclip[m] specing: That's probably nothing compared to other stuff the server is already doing like generating chunks and storing them on the disk. 18:39 erlehmann https://repo.or.cz/waspsaliva.git 18:41 Noclip[m] I think my main issue with 'being against cheat clients' is that it kind of conflicts with the ideas of free software. 18:41 MTDiscord Well I hope someone can fix the gui_scaling_filter eventually because it'll be a shame if we have to choose between broken 9-slice images vs. jagged menu icons. As it is, either of them is probably livable for me, but neither one will give a very good impression of the engine to new users. 18:41 erlehmann to quote someone who knows it better than me “the c++ hacks in both dragonfire and waspsal are about the same” 18:42 MTDiscord I've seen a lot of people play the game with settings that are probably not too far from default, but with a lot of variation in results, possibly because some people just set all their settings to "max", but there are hidden settings needed to make those look right in some particular cases (like for fixing filtration on some systems) 18:42 erlehmann Noclip[m] the clamity servers and some other encourage users to try cheat clients 18:42 erlehmann Noclip[m] just come to clamity anarchy 18:43 MTDiscord Where does the name from waspsaliva even come from anyway 18:43 Noclip[m] Well I'm not for using cheat clients on survival servers either. 18:44 erlehmann Warr1024 stuff like randomscreenshot can not be a server side mod or undying 18:44 MTDiscord Yes I never said all things should be server side 18:44 MTDiscord I just said that some of these features sound like they'd be nice to see available elsewhere 18:44 erlehmann Noclip[m] you can play clamity with or without cheat clients. there are not many servers with such a destroyed spawn. 18:46 Noclip[m] erlehmann: No I mean cheat clients should be forbidden on serious survival servers. But I have also nothing against having servers which explicitly allow cheat clients in survival, I just wouldn't call them "serious survival servers" then. 18:47 specing look at "cheat clients" as "improved user experience" clients 18:47 erlehmann Noclip[m] oh clamity is serious business 18:47 specing you aren't cheating with auto-eat, you are just automating menial labour 18:47 erlehmann when i got to clamity first spawn was a desert of sponges with a sponge grid in the sky above 18:48 MTDiscord It makes sense to disallow cheating, it just depends on what is actually "cheating" in terms of the game experience. Not all mechanics are equally important. 18:48 erlehmann because they wanted to prevent people from flooding spawn again 18:48 MTDiscord I've seen people use cheat clients, and whether or not they actually do something that's actually cheating varies. 18:49 MTDiscord The cheaters I've seen so far basically ruin the game experience for themselves and end up quitting anyway, so I don't think I've even had to issue penalties. 18:49 Desour what server owners don't seem to know: it's cheap to protect the whole world above the spawn 18:50 erlehmann from my point of view, the debate cheat client vs regular cient hinges on your personal stance regarding the neoliberal robinsonade-style gameplay that minecraft-style games exhibit 18:50 erlehmann https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1555412016655678 18:50 Noclip[m] But what I do not like is discrimination or harassment against the developers of cheat clients because 1. discrimination and harassment are bad in general and 2. Minetest being free software means that everyone is allowed to change the client however they want to. 18:50 Desour there's no need to allow players to build stuff above the spawn, like shadow making platforms or sand 18:50 erlehmann > This narrative of development is the product of the game’s eponymous mechanics. Players, beset by the literal forces of darkness, must exercise their mastery over nature to produce utopia. In this, players resemble enlightenment heroes in the mold of Robinson Crusoe, who through their industry can produce all the comforts of home. 18:50 erlehmann > What the novel provided for the rising 18th-century bourgeoisie, the game provides for those under late capital. 18:51 MTDiscord Haha, yeah, it's been fun subverting that narrative without even knowing I was. 18:52 MTDiscord I guess that may be related to why cheat clients are kind of useless in my game, which is probably also one of the reasons why they don't bother me that much. 18:53 erlehmann in minecraft and many minetest games the player experiences non-alienated labor; players exploit the environment for resources and colonize the world to create their personal utopia. resistance to that is seen as illegitimate – mobs are to be tamed (or: enslaved, incarcerated) if possible, killed if they are a threat (or when the player feels like it) 18:54 MTDiscord Using a cheat client is sort of like sprinkling salt on your food before tasting it... 18:54 erlehmann exile is a game that pushes this narrative a lot 18:54 erlehmann as are mineclone2 and similar games 18:55 erlehmann in-game, players do labor. that labor is probably experienced as fun partly because players *always* get rewards for working hard. 18:55 erlehmann but many players do not question the conditions of that labor or react even hostile to questioning it. 18:55 Noclip[m] " Using a cheat client is sort of like sprinkling salt on your food before tasting it..." 18:55 Noclip[m] -> That's actually a pretty good fitting comparison! 18:56 erlehmann a game like this “shows players an achievable world and rewards them for taking steps toward it. The resource collection, construction, and expansion that constitute the game’s core activities are thus always justified” (that is from the article i posted) 18:57 erlehmann from my point of view, players feel free and happy as long as no one questions the boundaries 18:57 MTDiscord Yeah, the weird thing about NodeCore is that I think it contains that narrative, but there's an odd sort of futility to it. There is a strong hardcore progression-oriented loop, but what a lot of the reviewers have gotten out of it is something strangely zen. 18:58 erlehmann if someone dupes or automines they are *better* at the goal of acquiring resources, but they do no longer fit the neoliberal agenda. they no longer do “honest work” that gets rewarded, they get rewarded for doing “dishonest work”, like creating client side mods. 18:58 erlehmann or just being weird enough to run them 18:59 Noclip[m] What I really don't want to see are proprietary rootkits inside the kernel to enforce anticheat. And I don't care how much cheaters are a problem for the game here, there are just things that are not okay. (This however hasn't much todo with Minetest anymore.) 18:59 erlehmann Warr1024 i always wondered how to subvert it more subtly and it might be that you have achieved that. might also not be. nodecore was too hard for me. but so was exile, also. 19:00 Noclip[m] (Some Windows games do have such kernel rootkits for anticheat purposes.) 19:00 erlehmann Noclip[m] it is part of forcing you to not question the conditions of your in-game labor 19:00 erlehmann you are allowed to be free in the game … but no, not that free! 19:00 MTDiscord I think in some ways the subversion of the story is inherent to me from all sandbox games, because to me the point was always to play and have fun, but getting better at the game means you reach the end of the fun faster. 19:01 erlehmann as i experience it, fleck and cora are the people who are most similar to the protagonists of the matrix 19:01 Noclip[m] By the way: What does "zen" even mean? 19:01 MTDiscord Hell if I know 19:01 erlehmann Noclip[m] it's some thing connected to maintaining motorcycles i think 19:01 MTDiscord Definitely a different Zen 19:02 MTDiscord I dunno about motorcycles, but there's glass furnace maintenance in NodeCore, and that at least can be sort of meditative. 19:02 erlehmann Warr1024 i bet you can make nodecore even stranger if you figure out what else you can subvert https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1555412016655678 19:02 MTDiscord Anyways, IIRC Zen is a Buddhist concept of reaching ultimate inner peace/happiness. 19:03 MTDiscord Heh, well, I don't know how "superiority over the world's other inhabitants" can be relevant to NodeCore when the concept of "inhabitant" is sort of turned around anyway. 19:04 erlehmann the question i want to ask people who curse cheat client: is mining several stacks of cobble manually qualitatively different from a clicker game? 19:04 MTDiscord Players do not inhabit the world, but there are also no other "animal" creatures either. 19:04 Noclip[m] Ah yea, the nodecore glass furnace minigame which no one completed so far xD 19:04 MTDiscord I mean, some of us have come fairly close 19:05 Noclip[m] Who knows, maybe you could also spend 10k hours on nodecore glass furnaces?! xD 19:05 MTDiscord But most people reach a point where they know that further progress is achievable, but not necessarily critical. 19:05 erlehmann Warr1024 you can mostly see it in games that emulate minecraft that the mobs are strangely only there as resource collectors 19:05 Noclip[m] Warr1024: There is usually always room for optimization ... 19:05 MTDiscord One of the reasons why we DO include "clicker" content in games is also because sometimes you want a vibe check. 19:06 celeron55_ mining several stacks of cobble is an experience 19:06 erlehmann i know three mineclonia servers where players put villagers into very small prison sells to maximize the extracted value (and so they can not get away) 19:06 celeron55_ not really a game, in a strict sense 19:06 Noclip[m] How many games are there which are like minecraft appart from most minetest games? 19:06 MTDiscord Yeah, mobs as resource collectors is how I saw them in MC. That's one of the reasons why I figured "why mobs in the first place?" If all I want is a mechanic that involves players having to solve some kind of puzzle in order to establish an ongoing supply of some resource, surely I could do this in some other way. 19:06 celeron55_ unless there are mobs or something to make it harder 19:07 MTDiscord A game is not required to have experiences that all tie tightly into the game's core design; it's okay to include some stuff that accounts for the fact that players are human too. 19:07 erlehmann Noclip[m] there are a few 2d iso robinsonade games that precede even minecraft 19:07 MTDiscord Well, it's certainly unavoidable at a certain point, at least. 19:07 erlehmann like "schiffbruch.exe" 19:08 erlehmann https://www.dplate.de/games/schiffbruch 19:08 Noclip[m] "i know three mineclonia servers where players put villagers into very small prison sells to maximize the extracted value (and so they can not get away)" 19:08 Noclip[m] -> Well I did exactly that in real minecraft a while (I think over a year) ago. 19:09 MTDiscord In a way it's sort of unfair to accuse sandbox games of pushing this narrative when they're actually some of the games that do a better job of offering an alternative; in some games all you do is conquer and there is no "stop and smell the roses and just learn to coexist" sort of alternative. 19:10 Noclip[m] I could then get invinite amounts of max enchanted diamond armor + tools for fairly low prices from the villagers. 19:10 erlehmann well, the “largely nonnarrative sandbox game” lets players make their own story, but it still gives the framework within that happens 19:11 MTDiscord Heh, I mean, the exploitation of villagers is also sort of a subversion of the game creator's intention that we take these things seriously as beings when we know that they ARE really just simulated mechanical entities. 19:11 erlehmann it is similar to simcity being coded so that there is only a specific kind of tax regime that is successful (rooted in the ideology of the developers, not cold hard data) 19:11 erlehmann Warr1024 the really important thing to subvert is this: 19:11 erlehmann > The stated goal of player freedom is seductive in that it flatters mythologies of bootstrapped success: The game world is available for the player to transform. The player can become a neoliberal hero. 19:12 erlehmann > freedom to profit globally rests on the limitations of the freedoms of others through technological dominance. Player relationships to the gamework are thus predicated on a sense of entitlement and guaranteed by their ability to see in-game resistance as illegitimate. 19:12 MTDiscord With NodeCore I've actually been sort of forced to push a narrative of unlocking puzzle elements, because otherwise people just join and don't know what to do; they're very much conditioned to be told this particular story. After a while, though, the hint system starts to fail to offer clear direction, and so players start to find their own value. 19:13 cora its unethical to imprison villagers if you can just dupe your stuff ^^ 19:13 erlehmann there she is, the goddess herself 19:13 erlehmann cora, only then? 19:13 cora well .. i mean 19:14 specing hi cora 19:14 Noclip[m] I'm fairly sure most of Minecraft's vanilla farms weren't intended by Mojang xD 19:14 erlehmann on one server where the players do it, they know dupes 19:14 cora i protect them from z's 19:14 cora lol 19:14 erlehmann and the admin gives freely out /give privs 19:14 erlehmann they *still* imprison the villagers 19:15 MTDiscord The ethical way to treat villagers is to mod them so that they actually find the forced labor fulfilling. 19:15 cora um 19:15 cora i think they might prefer imprisonment over that tbh 19:15 MTDiscord Let's not lose sight of the fact that anthropomorphizing them and projecting our own values onto the villagers is also pretty unhealthy. 19:15 cora i think its safe to say they dont want to be reprogrammed 19:16 MTDiscord I think it's probably safe to say they didn't want to be programmed in the first place 19:16 cora fair 19:16 Noclip[m] "the hint system starts to fail to offer clear direction, and so players start to find their own value." 19:16 Noclip[m] -> That's where emergence takes over the game ... 19:17 erlehmann i think we can probably all agree on “What unites most player activities is their focus on work, specifically the work of transforming the game world to facilitate resource accumulation.” 19:17 erlehmann there are very little exceptions to that 19:17 MTDiscord Well, the idea of subverting the usual villager narratives seems like it's gotta be pretty hard to do in either a game that has villagers intended to closely mimic the behavior of another game that doesn't subvert it (MCL-family) or a game that does not have villagers (NC) 19:17 erlehmann inside the box is an exception 19:17 erlehmann but nodecore, exile, most minetest games favor the neoliberal utopia 19:18 erlehmann even if they are *not* trying to clone minecraft 19:18 erlehmann it may be a genre thing 19:18 MTDiscord I think in NodeCore, work exists purely for work's sake, i.e. there is no value in resource accumulation itself other than unlocking other work. Players may choose whether the work has inherent value to them, and how far they want to take it. 19:19 Noclip[m] "its unethical to imprison villagers if you can just dupe your stuff ^^" 19:19 Noclip[m] -> Minecraft villagers are just some stupid and fairly simple algorithm so go and imprison them as much as you like. 19:19 cora well 19:20 cora its not unthinkable there might be a way smarter than you being that would say the same about you ^^ dont want to get too philosophical here but who are we to say really :P 19:20 erlehmann as i said before, being against devs like fleck & cora creating tools that make useless busywork go away represent an ideological opposition to getting rewarded without “honest” work 19:20 Noclip[m] How are dupes even possible? Is this some sort of 0day in minetest? 19:21 cora there have been a number of dupes 19:21 erlehmann yeah 19:21 MTDiscord In a way I think I don't see any of the work in NodeCore as "honest." The ultimate reward, in theory, would be to be able to create your own ideal space, while also leaving the majority of the world unspoiled, but I think that would require a herculean effort ... and there are ways in which it's not even really possible (e.g. you never get back the time you spent) 19:22 erlehmann i recently found a dupe that mostly requires wood and cobble (it is a variation of another one that was more complex) 19:22 erlehmann not telling more ^^ 19:22 MTDiscord You do a thing and yes, there are some rewards ... but there are also negative externalities, and even with assistance from the game mechanics in theory, it's virtually impossible to break even. 19:23 erlehmann Warr1024 if the work is not honest, then cheatclients are not dishonest 19:23 erlehmann but cheating at nodecore, lol. it is a puzzle game. 19:23 MTDiscord Heh, in a way, I sort of wonder if you don't really need to subvert a neoliberal narrative or whatever ,you just need to let it play out and let players see the real consequences. 19:23 erlehmann you probably mostly cheat yourself that way. 19:24 MTDiscord NodeCore isn't exactly a puzzle game, though it's probably more puzzle game than not. 19:24 erlehmann Warr1024 the real consequences of a neoliberal expansionist ideology in the game are … the player shapes the world? 19:24 cora I think "cheating" (as in doing things the vanilla client can't do) is bad in one scenario: you ruin the fun for other people with it. for that reason i'm really only doing it on servers that more or less explicitly allow it .. 19:24 sfan5 Noclip[m]: there's one death-related dupe in the engine in certain conditions I'm aware of, the rest will have grown on MCL's lawn 19:25 cora that seems like a fair assessment ^^ 19:25 Noclip[m] "its not unthinkable there might be a way smarter than you being that would say the same about you ^^ dont want to get too philosophical here but who are we to say really :P" 19:25 Noclip[m] -> I wouldn't really have a choice then anyways. Shit happens. 19:26 cora i think thats a little short sighted 19:26 MTDiscord erlehmann: in my experience, the consequence is that the player shapes the world, and then discovers that it didn't make them happy. 19:27 MTDiscord What players seem to take away is the experience and the knowledge, but the material rewards aren't really fulfilling. 19:28 erlehmann > death-related dupe in the engine in certain conditions I'm aware of 19:28 MTDiscord CDB has tags for "Player vs Player" and "Player vs Environment" but NodeCore was always sort of a "Player vs Self" game. 19:28 erlehmann sfan5, is it a crashdupe or not? 19:28 erlehmann its so funny to figure out if other people know the same dupes 19:28 sfan5 it does not involve the server crashing 19:28 Noclip[m] "[...] it's virtually impossible to break even." 19:28 erlehmann that's funny 19:28 Noclip[m] fail 19:29 erlehmann what do you mean 19:33 MTDiscord If you're going to criticize games for playing into some kind of dominant narrative, then what exactly are you proposing to do counter to it, though? What are you planning on doing in Mineclonia? 19:34 Noclip[m] "[...] it's virtually impossible to break even." 19:34 Noclip[m] -> Emergence is bascially a result from complexity. In order to solve a more complex problem you need to be smarter. So to reach a higher level in the game of complexity you need to be smarter. The halting machine is bascially a cheat client for the game of complexity. 19:34 MTDiscord It seemed like that game's premise doesn't really offer much room for it. 19:35 MTDiscord Noclip, not exactly sure what you mean there? 19:37 MTDiscord I think some of the confusion might be the player/world duality/separation thing in NodeCore. Many modern games have a "role playing" element to them, where you assume the identity of an in-game character. NodeCore doesn't do that, your "character" is just an ephemeral avatar for you and has very few properties of its own. 19:37 MTDiscord So talking about what happens inside the world when you play and what happens inside the player are really sort of separate things. 19:37 erlehmann > If you're going to criticize games for playing into some kind of dominant narrative, then what exactly are you proposing to do counter to it, though? What are you planning on doing in Mineclonia? 19:37 erlehmann Warr1024 nothing. as long as “kinda like minecraft” exists, it is that way. 19:38 MTDiscord Hmm, yeah, NodeCore is itself a "kinda like minecraft" though with more "kinda" and less "like" 19:39 MTDiscord I really never set out to subvert the narrative specifically, I just set out to subvert the mechanics. 19:39 Noclip[m] I'm not anymore 100% sure but iirc you should be able to transform the halting machine into a machine which can solve any theoretical problem. Or rather reformulate every problem so that the halting machine could provide it's solution. 19:39 erlehmann i think “inside the box” sidesteps the issue. as do skyblock games, to an extent. 19:39 Noclip[m] (Halting machine is of course a machine which solves the halting problem.) 19:39 MTDiscord I thought the idea behind the "halting machine" was that it was a paradox, thus proving that it itself couldn't actually exist. 19:39 erlehmann > So talking about what happens inside the world when you play and what happens inside the player are really sort of separate things. 19:39 erlehmann no, not according to olia lialina 19:40 erlehmann the user has to be understood as a part of your computing environment. the user is turing complete. 19:40 erlehmann http://contemporary-home-computing.org/turing-complete-user/ 19:41 MTDiscord Haha, how ironic that eliminating the user is something I'm always strugglling to do. 19:41 erlehmann Warr1024 i suggest to read that essay 19:41 MTDiscord Eh ... I guess I can put it on my list 19:43 erlehmann > General Purpose Users can write an article in their e-mail client, layout their business card in Excel and shave in front of a web cam. They can also find a way to publish photos online without flickr, tweet without twitter, like without facebook, make a black frame around pictures without instagram, remove a black frame from an instagram picture and even wake up at 7:00 without a “wake up at 7:00” app. 19:43 erlehmann and most importantly, the general purpose user can dupe items in vanilla minetest without needing a cheat client 19:43 Noclip[m] "i think thats a little short sighted" 19:43 Noclip[m] -> How would I protect myself against a being that is a milion times more inteligent than I am? 19:44 MTDiscord Why do you assume that you'd need to protect yourself from a being that's much more intelligent? 19:46 MTDiscord Kind of reminds me of Roko's Basilisk... 19:49 erlehmann btw resource collection and construction games like dwarf fortress do make it easy to push the neoliberal agenda 19:50 erlehmann 3D lego games were never such a hit as minecraft 19:50 erlehmann to be fair, no game was 19:50 MTDiscord because the controls were ass and there was no actual goal 19:50 erlehmann well, they did not have the “you have to work for your shit” part 19:51 MTDiscord So it sounds kind of like neoliberalism is basically a prerequisite for western mass consumption now. 19:51 erlehmann no mining, no crafting 19:51 erlehmann the lego 3d gaming experience is more a 3d editor toy than a game 19:51 cora well ig there is creative mode 19:51 MTDiscord Yeah, MC added creative mode to cater to that use-case but that was an afterthought 19:52 MTDiscord it was really the survival gameplay where it took off 19:52 erlehmann well, dwarf fortress and cataclysm DDA arguably also do it 19:52 MTDiscord well, it was an "afterthought" in the sense of reviving it, not that it didn't exist before 19:53 erlehmann i like the game loop 19:53 erlehmann day/night 19:53 erlehmann with evil mobs spawning at night 19:53 MTDiscord I think if you want to subvert those ingrained player expectations, if you do it too blatantly then you'll basically lose your audience. Hell, just giving away MT for free without trying to gain "marketshare" or "revenue" is confusing enough to a lot of players. 19:53 erlehmann and if the player does not construct shelter, they die 19:53 erlehmann exile forces you into it even more 19:53 erlehmann RULE THE ENVIRONMENT OR DIE exile screams in the players face, metaphorically 19:54 MTDiscord Exile: artificial difficulty is best difficulty 19:54 erlehmann btw, how to get wet clay for water pots? 19:54 erlehmann i only ever get salty wet lay except once or twice 19:54 erlehmann at the same time, exile is so unforgiving 19:55 erlehmann and makes the things it suggests might bring the player nearer to any goal (don't die?) hard or impossible 19:55 MTDiscord I always found it weird that NodeCore and Exile both get crossover players who are looking for a "hardcore" experience, but the games take pretty much diametrically opposite approaches to "survival" mechanics. 19:55 erlehmann find a bunch of spiders in most other games: they are resources 19:55 erlehmann find a spider nest in exile: better not touch them and get away fast 19:56 Noclip[m] " I thought the idea behind the "halting machine" was that it was a paradox, thus proving that it itself couldn't actually exist." 19:56 Noclip[m] -> Yes, it cannot exist. If it could it would basically be a being with an unlimited inteligence and thus also a cheat client for the game of complexity. I think it should be able to solve any problem which you throw at it nearly instantly. 19:56 erlehmann exile also makes it so hard to build and mine 19:57 erlehmann just have hermione solve it and retcon it using the time machine she reverse engineered in 8th grade 19:57 erlehmann (i heard she is very smart) 19:57 cora you should *really* read hpmor lol 19:58 erlehmann i know ^^ 19:58 MTDiscord I haven't had a lot of experience playing exile, but the part that I do remember was mostly walking back home from spawn due to an extended drought and repeatedly dying of thirst. 19:58 MTDiscord Needless to say, I did not find that part of the experience engaging 19:59 erlehmann Warr1024 i think the thing with open world games is that they suggest a narrative of technological advancement that makes it possible to extend the players mastery over the world. what is “hardcore” is mostly dangling that in front of the player but making it difficult to impossible to achieve it. 19:59 erlehmann which, granted, mirrors the unfairness of the real world 19:59 MTDiscord Using survival mechanics as an easy intuitive motivator for players seemed like a logical idea but I guess I felt like it was overplayed elsewhere already. 20:00 erlehmann well, technically you only need a starting point 20:01 erlehmann you might even be able to engineer an impurity in gameplay 20:01 erlehmann CDDA default start is: you are in a shelter surrounded by zombies 20:01 erlehmann so you have to learn how to quickly get stuff and hit or run 20:01 erlehmann kinda mirrors a lot of the gameplay 20:04 independent56 What are the ethics of posters like "Things getting tough? We can help. Samaritans - 116 123" placed on dangerous places, places where one can be found to commit suicide? Do they mock, or do they add realism? 20:04 erlehmann what 20:05 erlehmann independent56 if you want a person not to commit suicide, mockery may not be the best idea 20:05 erlehmann independent56 i suggest deferring it to professionals if you have the time 20:05 independent56 I'm not mocking the person. I may be mocking a real life charity 20:05 MTDiscord Sounds like maybe a thing you don't want to tackle in a game 20:06 cora do you think such a poster makes them more or less likely to do it ? 20:06 independent56 I mean, i just want realism 20:06 cora i tend to think that it probably doesnt change how likely they are to do it 20:06 MTDiscord There's probably some realism you don't want, esp. if it's going to get you involved in more controversy than you really wanted. 20:06 erlehmann “do you think the existence of the /kill command requires suicidal ideation on part of the developer?” 20:06 cora think of it as being there for the ones that decide not to do it 20:07 MTDiscord If it's enough to make you really question it, then I wouldn't do it unless you want other people to be asking you some potentially-very-difficult questions too. 20:07 independent56 I mean, for the posters to be realistic, they have to be palced in dangerous areas 20:07 erlehmann what is dangerous 20:07 erlehmann the nether? 20:08 cora archway towers lol 20:08 erlehmann i would argue that labor as play in a game produces economic fantasies 20:08 erlehmann where inequalities of race and class and gender do not exist 20:09 erlehmann labor is always rewarded 20:09 erlehmann any failure can be offset with more labor 20:09 erlehmann idealized capitalism 20:10 MTDiscord They wouldn't be a very effective escape if they weren't. 20:10 Noclip[m] Warr1024, Consider this: You map mathematical symboles through something like ascii/unicode/latex onto bits so that each combination of bits represents a mathematical equation. Now you have a differential equation which you need to solve. You create a blueprint for a machine which would try for every possible equation beginning with '0' if it solves the differential equation. If it does the machine halts but if it doesn't the machine keeps 20:10 Noclip[m] going. your machine will probably be limited [...] 20:10 erlehmann what 20:10 independent56 I mean,there is a bridge over tracks. And one can be expected to commit suicide by jumping onto said tracks 20:10 erlehmann can be expected? 20:11 independent56 *A suicidal one 20:11 MTDiscord Basically you're saying you're building a model train station, and you want to mimic reality as closely as possible, right down to the suicide prevention posters you're seeing in real life, and now you're wondering whether that might be a little TOO real? 20:12 MTDiscord It's like if you were building a scale model of the Foxconn factory and had to decide whether to include the nets they have around the building to stop people from committing suicide by jumping off the roof. 20:12 MTDiscord That sounds like a pretty tricky subject to tackle. 20:13 MTDiscord Noclip it seems as though your message was (ironically) clippped... 20:13 Noclip[m] [...] to a specific amount of bits so it would at some point run out of bits. As we want the machine to halt only when a correct equation has been found we program it to start at the beginning again after it run out of bits. [...] 20:14 Noclip[m] Warr1024: I'm clipping it myself as I'm writing. 20:14 independent56 It is. And i struggle to comprehend the ethics. So, i am asking you if it is mockery towards the charities to simulate suicide postrs in a simple game. 20:15 MTDiscord I don't know if I can say what it is or what it isn't, but I'm fairly sure that if enough people see it, some will see it one way, some will see it another, and others may see it a way we didn't even necessarily anticipate. 20:15 rubenwardy Warr1024: DragonFire, WaspsSaliva. Same pattern, later is a fork of the former 20:15 MTDiscord I'm also not sure that the idea of NOT including them is necessarily "safe" either, especially if you're very faithful to every other aspect. 20:15 rubenwardy not sure why it's a wasp 20:15 rubenwardy but also not sure why it's a dragon \o/ 20:15 independent56 Hmm, makes sense. I am not that faithul to all other apsects: my hiking path is straight as a ruler. 20:18 independent56 but i feel suicide posters are an important addition. My hope is that they make 90% of passerbys say "hmm, nice", and maybe some may say "Yeah, maybe i should call them". 20:18 MTDiscord About all I know about the subject is that I've seen people say "content warning: discussion of suicide" but I've never seen "content warning: blatantly avoiding discussion of suicide" so it seems like omitting them might be less likely to get you into dangerous territory with a sensitive subject. 20:18 independent56 makes sense 20:18 MTDiscord It all depends on what your goals are, too, i.e. do you feel strongly that it's a subject that SHOULD be discussed, and do you feel equipped to do so, and to handle any controversy that comes your way as a result? 20:19 MTDiscord I personally wouldn't, but I guess I do admire the people who do difficult things for the benefit of the rest of us. 20:19 independent56 yeah, i might as well remove all mention of them. 20:20 Noclip[m] [...] Per definition if we give a blueprint of another machine (the one I just described) and a specific problem (the differential equation) as inputs to the halting machine it will tell us within a limited amount of time wether the blueprint-machine would ever halt or keep running forever. If it halts then there must be a solution to the diff-equation which begins with '0' and if it doesn't then there is no solution which begins with '0'. 20:20 Noclip[m] [...] 20:20 MTDiscord I mean ultimately we're making games and stuff; trying to solve these big problems might be a tad ambitious. 20:21 erlehmann independent56 use a real poster in the game and delete the entire home directory if the user commits suicite 20:21 erlehmann suicide 20:21 independent56 Yeah XD. I just want a world people can use as a drug, a place to escape from the monotones of life (as i regularky do) 20:21 MTDiscord The whole thing about games pushing a neoliberal fantasy is interesting food for thought, but I doubt I'm going to understand how to use that immediately, anyway. 20:22 erlehmann you can see the ideal capitalism thing on servers like catlandia pretty well 20:22 erlehmann everything is colonized 20:22 erlehmann and there are stores at spawn 20:22 rubenwardy I made the first store on RedCrab. Fun times 20:22 erlehmann my friend had the idea to make as store that accepts payment only in non-renewable dirt blocks, to encourage topsoil griefing :3 20:23 rubenwardy well, it was fun until a server bug wiped spawn off the map, along with most of my inventory 20:23 erlehmann some time ago i went onto some spanish server and made a thing that gave out items one-by-one if you pressed a button 20:23 erlehmann then protected it with a protection block 20:24 erlehmann for quite some time people were not playing the game in the regular way, but pressing the button in hopes of getting good items 20:24 erlehmann (i had the button connected to a dupestash via hopper) 20:24 erlehmann then an admin showed up and banned me 20:24 erlehmann i think that person had no sense of humor 20:24 Noclip[m] [...] If there is a solution beginning with '0' we make a new blueprint which starts with '00' and if there isn't then we make a new blueprint which starts with '1'. We repeat that process until we either have our full solution (for example '001011101001[...]01001') or until we can savely say that there is no solution within our limited amount of bits. 20:25 erlehmann making a clicker game is a high art form! 20:25 MTDiscord I mean, the idea of a clicker game as satire isn't exactly lost on me... :-/ 20:25 erlehmann well, mostly i hate protection blocks 20:25 independent56 Oooof... where can i find more about this bug? 20:25 erlehmann independent56 which bug? 20:26 independent56 The one that removed the spawn 20:26 MTDiscord Yeah, NodeCore's stance on protection mods is basically "compatible, but discouraged" 20:26 rubenwardy independent56: it was around 2013 I believe - basically, the host ran out of storage and the server started dropping all the chunks it touched. My shop was at spawn, so was lost 20:26 Noclip[m] Warr1024: If I didn't miss something here then this should be one way how you could use a halting machine to solve every existing differential equation. 20:26 MTDiscord There's actually an anti-protection mod that's used on most of the servers that causes player inventory to be left behind in-world when they leave, and I've just been trying to figure out a smooth way to integrate it into the core game. 20:27 rubenwardy also, something I was working on a while back: https://capitalismgame.rubenwardy.com/ 20:27 independent56 Wow... has this archaic feature gone? 20:27 rubenwardy I had shops, companies, banks, and land ownership working. The main trouble was building the craft tree up, it was too much work for the gain 20:27 Noclip[m] I hope I explaination is at least somewhat understandable. 20:27 MTDiscord Noclip: Haha, sorry, I'm not sure if I can read and parse all that, but I don't doubt that there are ways you can turn a lot of paradoxical constructs into general-purpose infinitely-powerful solving machines. Time travel is a good one too. 20:27 independent56 rubenwardy, wow... i always thought it used a different game engine 20:28 MTDiscord I kind of forgot why we ended up talking about the halting problem though. 20:29 erlehmann > shops, companies, banks, and land ownership 20:29 erlehmann lol 20:29 erlehmann humans get an open world and they make capitalism dioramas out of it 20:29 independent56 Which is the point of creative servers: free access to all 20:33 MTDiscord I feel like the "capitalism diorama" thing is something I've heard before elsewhere... 20:34 rubenwardy because it's an interesting optimisation problem 20:36 Noclip[m] " I kind of forgot why we ended up talking about the halting problem though." 20:36 Noclip[m] -> I didn't made this clear in the first place: A machine which can solve any solvable problem in a limited amount of time cannot exist. Therefore a cheat client for games which are (purely) based on complexity/emergence cannot exist. If Nodecore is strongly based on complexity/emergence then a serious cheat client for Nodecore cannot exist. 20:37 independent56 Worldedit is teaching me my times tables... especially when i am building supports for a boring viaduct 20:37 rubenwardy you can reduce the problem into individual actions that can be cheat protected 20:38 rubenwardy the combination of these actions may constitute griefing, but not necessarily cheating 20:38 MTDiscord Oh, okay, haha, yeah, a cheat client for NodeCore would probably be a bit silly. I mean, it's possible to "cheat", but (1) doing it with a specific client probably isn't useful, and (2) it is kind of counterproductive to a lot of the reason why people generally play in the first place. 20:38 rubenwardy there are client-side only cheats that you can't protect again - anything that multiplies skill or reveals information 20:38 Noclip[m] TL;DR: As long as you keep a strong focus on emergence in Nodecore the game will be it's own unbreakable anticheat. 20:39 independent56 I only play for the FULL IMMERSSION: Boring sky, single biome. \j 20:39 rubenwardy oh wait, you said cheat client not cheat protector 20:39 MTDiscord In games that have competitive elements, "cheating" can involve gaining an unfair advantage over another player, but in NodeCore the only real "cheating" we see is players bypassing gameplay challenges, which is really only "cheating" themselves out of the journey. 20:41 erlehmann i only play for the FULL IMMERSION: no sky, no biomes 20:41 erlehmann no plyaers 20:41 erlehmann players 20:41 Noclip[m] Warr1024: The emergent part of nodecore is the invention of efficient machines. This is the part of the game for which a cheat client cannot exist. For everything else there can probably be a cheat client. 20:43 MTDiscord I mean the ultimate cheat client for nodecore is just int main() { exit(0); }, as it lets you skip ALL the gameplay challenges, and even all the creative-building exercises you could invent at the end. 20:43 Noclip[m] If you play nodecore to invent new and more efficient machines and do not just want to farm resources then cheating won't be possible by the laws of logic. 20:43 erlehmann main is usually a function 20:43 erlehmann (when is it not?) 20:43 MTDiscord No idea, I haven't written in C in ages. 20:44 Noclip[m] The nearest thing to a cheat client that could exist for this would be an inteligent being like humans. 20:45 MTDiscord Basically if you just want to skip gameplay obstacles then the logical extension of that is playing Hello World. I don't really care if people do that though, as long as they (1) don't ruin the experience for other players who may want to play differently, and (2) don't confuse my game with their Hello Worldified version and file complaints or something about stuff that's not actually in the game. 20:45 Noclip[m] But how far you can get with such a cheat client depends mostly on how inteligent the cheat client is. 20:45 MTDiscord Yeah, I mean, you can "cheat" by just watching spoiler videos 20:46 MTDiscord but then, that only gets you as far as somebody else has been already. 20:46 MTDiscord People will sometimes ask me "so what's the best way to solve X" and my answer is usually "how the hell should I know? I just wrote the game. Go ask one of the players who's gotten further than I have." 20:47 Noclip[m] But that will only get you to the same level of that spoiler video. If you want to go beyond that you either need a better video or better inteligence. 20:48 MTDiscord Well, it's not all intelligence either, it requires some patience too. 20:48 Noclip[m] Intelligence and time basically. 20:49 MTDiscord well, time is part of patience, but there's also an emotional aspect to it. 20:49 Noclip[m] Sure it's part of that. 20:50 MTDiscord It's actually something you exercise and develop when you play, too... 20:51 Noclip[m] What interests me now: Can Nodecore have an endgame where you basically solved all problems? 20:52 Noclip[m] Or in other words: Is the amount of problems withing Nodcore limited? 20:52 Noclip[m] Mhh that probably depends on the players goals. 20:53 Noclip[m] If the player is willing set new goals after reaching others then there could probably be an infinite amount of problems. 20:54 MTDiscord Yeah, it should be possible to make it to the end of the hints (assuming there aren't more regressions) but I have no idea how much of the potential gameplay that really covers 20:54 Noclip[m] In theory there should be an infinite amount of problems for any turring complete system. 20:54 Noclip[m] Nahh, I don't care about the hints. 20:54 MTDiscord I know that there's only a finite number of arrangement of elements that are possible within an MT world, but I don't know whether the same elements with different interpretation would be considered the same "gameplay" or not. 20:55 Noclip[m] I see the hints more as a beginner tutorial: The real game starts if you completed all hints. 20:55 MTDiscord The hints are the closest thing to an enderdragon that NC has. On the other hand, I think players rarely get through half of them before "graduating" from them. 20:55 Noclip[m] Although there are still a lot of hints which I didn't complete yet ... mostly because I was too lazy to mess with them so far ... 20:56 erlehmann HINT: what you experience in the game is not real, unless you want it to be. 20:56 Noclip[m] What do you mean by "graduating" from them? 20:56 MTDiscord I mean players "graduate" when they find their own reasons and goals to continue and stop being driven by hint discovery 20:57 MTDiscord though I guess there are also cases where they come back to them later 20:57 Noclip[m] Mhh, what does "real" even mean? So far I've never been able to come up with a serious definition of the word "real". 20:58 MTDiscord It means that if you square it, you always get a non-negative number. 20:58 rubenwardy it's "a value of a continuous quantity that can represent a distance along a line. " 20:59 MTDiscord Great minds think alike, and apparently ruben and I do too. 21:00 Noclip[m] " It means that if you square it, you always get a non-negative number." 21:00 Noclip[m] -> lol, didn't expect that answer xD 21:03 MTDiscord I think "what does real mean" is a philosophy rabbit-hole though. 21:03 erlehmann i am a bit late with this, but here you can see the long wuzzy post that made fleck reconsider https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/1543#issuecomment-19813 21:05 Noclip[m] I'd say the "real world" is the world outside of one's mind. But the only way I see to define that properly would be by using human senses but I would define senses as parts which transport information from the real world into the mind. 21:05 Noclip[m] So I need a definition for senses to define the real world and I would need a definition of the real world to define senses ... 21:09 MTDiscord https://xkcd.com/876/ 21:10 Noclip[m] "Reality is the sum or aggregate of all that is real or existent within a system, as opposed to that which is only imaginary." 21:10 Noclip[m] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality) 21:10 MTDiscord The existence of a real world is really unprovable ... I mean, even the idea that "proof" is a thing you should expect to find for something is something you get from the supposed real world... 21:11 Noclip[m] "An object of the mind is an object that exists in the imagination, but which, in the real world, can only be represented or modeled." 21:11 Noclip[m] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_of_the_mind) 21:11 MTDiscord "Reality is all that is real" ... ? real useful definition there :-) 21:11 Noclip[m] That's what I thought, too. xDD 21:13 Noclip[m] So wikipedia defines reality and imagination as each other's opposite ... 21:14 MTDiscord Heh, re: that Wuzzy comment, now I've forgotten what that was in relation to :-D 21:14 MTDiscord like, how did we end up on that subject... 21:15 Noclip[m] " https://xkcd.com/876/" 21:15 Noclip[m] Yea, that's nice. 21:17 Noclip[m] " The existence of a real world is really unprovable ... I mean, even the idea that "proof" is a thing you should expect to find for something is something you get from the supposed real world..." 21:17 Noclip[m] -> I don't think there is anything which can be known with certainty but of course I'm not certain about this ... 21:22 Noclip[m] What do you know? ... I don't think I know anything but I'm not sure. ... Then go to school and to university to learn something! ... [50 years later] ... What did you learn in the past 50 years? ... I'm now a bit more certain that I don't know anything but there is still some doubt. 21:59 MTDiscord The more you learn the less you "know" 22:51 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/WCFkFsD 22:52 independent56 What do you think fo ym new hiking infrastructure? 22:52 independent56 This is HP11: http://56i.duckdns.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:hiking&#proposed_paths 23:10 erlehmann http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/minetest-servers 23:15 erlehmann ; minetest-servers creative |head -n3 23:15 erlehmann fozland.com:30000 False 23:15 erlehmann your-land.de:30000 False 23:15 erlehmann pandorabox.io:30000 False 23:15 erlehmann # exited 120 0 23:15 erlehmann also works for other attributes 23:20 mazes_81 does TestificateMods (team or single dev?) chat on this channel ? 23:24 mazes_81 if they/he hear(s), my question is about regional_weather, I can launch snow or rain via /set_weather ... on, but when the setting is auto I never noticed rain or snow to be triggered 23:25 erlehmann can i depend on one mod or the other? 23:26 mazes_81 erlehmann: would be nice, but I think not from mod.conf (not sure I'm quite noob) 23:27 mazes_81 but you can still make two optional depends, and decide not launching anything if both minetest.get_modpath fails 23:28 erlehmann how to *not* launch? 23:28 MTDiscord lua error() exists 23:28 mazes_81 do all logic in mod.lua 23:29 mazes_81 then only dofile(mod.lua) if at least one required mod is present 23:30 erlehmann mmhhh 23:30 erlehmann Jonathon please elaborate? 23:31 MTDiscord Basically there's no way to do combinational logic or anything in depends 23:31 MTDiscord if you want to make a mod require either A or B, there is no way to express that without allowing neither 23:31 erlehmann default | mcl_player 23:31 MTDiscord so if someone chooses neither, MT itself will not prevent them from playing 23:31 MTDiscord so your only option then is either proceed with the functionality disabled, or throw an error and force the user to fix it that way 23:32 MTDiscord erlehmann https://www.lua.org/pil/8.5.html 23:32 MTDiscord worldedit pisses me off and uses it https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/blob/master/worldedit_gui/init.lua#L219-L225 forcing me not to put it in worldmods 23:34 MTDiscord erelhmann: assert() also exists 23:34 MTDiscord https://www.lua.org/pil/8.3.html 23:35 MTDiscord It sounds like basically there's no way to ensure a user has an either-or prereq enabled BEFORE loading teh world 23:36 MTDiscord mod.conf falls apart when you want either or, checking for forks, etc 23:36 MTDiscord Trade-offs, because I think ensuring correct mod loading order is the bigger part of its mission 23:36 MTDiscord after all, all dependency presence checks COULD be done manually in lua, but loading order couldn't. 23:37 MTDiscord yeah, just chuck everything in optional (povided you dont run into the issue with those) and figure it out in lua 23:38 MTDiscord Sadly if a better solution exists, it's not one I know 23:38 MTDiscord minetest has some issue where it makes optional dependancies required in certain cases, and some other stuff 23:39 Desour you could make a PR to support combinatorial logic, just throw a SAT-solver on it 23:39 Desour ^ that's another solution 23:40 independent56 Is there a command to request mapblocks to be loaded from the server, like /load here 40? i need to load a town into memory for screenshots 23:40 MTDiscord oh, you also have no way to force a mod to load before another or before all of them 23:40 MTDiscord thats the one thing you cant really work around 23:41 MTDiscord Loading mapblocks into the server doesn't necessarily load them onto the client though, and it's the client side where the rendering is done 23:41 Desour independent56: no. 23:41 MTDiscord might be more useful to crank up the draw distance, raise block transfer distance, and/or try a zoom/FOV thing. 23:42 Desour try increasing your view range instead of using full view range. I think it helped for me some time ago 23:42 MTDiscord Narrowing FOV temporarily increases draw distance and requests blocks from the server, possibly beyond the default range...? 23:42 jonadab rubenwardy: Your autocrafter group: recipe patch appears to mostly work, but I am getting some crashes. I will play around here and see if I can nail those down. 23:42 independent56 Shame. it could be abused if it isn't using limits. Someone could DOS the network by \load here 40000 23:43 jonadab My current working hypothesis is that if changing the recipe configuration results in an invalid recipe, something is nil and the code is assuming it's not nil. 23:43 jonadab I'll try to nail it down in the next couple of days. 23:46 MTDiscord erlehmann: see issues https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8601 and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8934, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11438 aims to fix the first (along with another issue) 23:52 independent56 it's 00:52 local time... should i sleep? 23:52 Desour you're wrong. it's 01:52 local time 23:53 independent56 BST, i mean 23:56 independent56 subdomain hell (Points to my mapserver): http://totally.secure.domain.google.com.look.how.secure.this.is.subdomain.hell.wow.look.56i.duckdns.org:8080