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IRC log for #minetest, 2020-09-28

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:14 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Hah, imagine Discord being a single entity with multiple personalites.
02:14 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> That would be a weird person
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03:48 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> There are discords with over 10000 people in them. I don't think a person could fit that many personalities.  I mean, you'd need to have a governing council that publishes meeting minutes to handle that many personalities...
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13:22 LPKI_Ramen Hello, please give me link to official Minetest discord server)
13:23 sfan5 there's no official one
13:25 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> The one that's bridged here is probably the Least Unofficial one.
13:25 sfan5 ..which would be https://discord.gg/6W84ytH
13:26 LPKI_Ramen thank you)
13:26 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I didn't know if there was a policy about posting the link in IRC.
13:28 LPKI_Ramen Lol server name just Minetest Unofficial))
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15:41 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Lol
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17:18 bootlegbilly Hi everyone
17:23 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Hello
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17:26 bootlegbilly How is everyone?
17:30 MTDiscord <G​enshin> disappointed with things on my end, but nonetheless i'm doing fine
17:33 MTDiscord <J​ordach> me_irl
17:35 bootlegbilly Jaja, life's that way
17:35 bootlegbilly Oh that's interesting, so the Discord and the IRC server are the same
17:35 bootlegbilly That's very clever
17:36 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > me_irl me_irl and me_on_the_net
17:37 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Yes, this irc bot can get chat from the unofficial minetest discord server
17:37 MTDiscord <G​enshin> its a webhook
17:38 MTDiscord <J​onathon> altho there is other channels here not connected to irc
17:38 MTDiscord <G​enshin> So irc won't have to deal with some shenanigains from here
17:38 MTDiscord <J​onathon> basically
17:38 MTDiscord <G​enshin> or vice versa
17:41 MTDiscord <G​enshin> bootlegbilly, this is how it looks like on our end if you're curious to know
17:41 MTDiscord <G​enshin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/760194504128462868/Screenshot_20200928-134048_Discord.jpg
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17:42 bootlegbilly Oh neat
17:42 Krock Genshin: your battery is low. consider charging it soon again
17:42 bootlegbilly Do any of you know anything about what's up with mineclone2?
17:42 bootlegbilly I can't seem to access the git repo
17:42 Krock the whole git server is down
17:43 Krock mesehub, that's it
17:43 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock: yep, going to charge this, lol
17:43 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Im on both PC and mobile cause testing reasons
17:43 Krock bootlegbilly: perhaps here are a few new commits: http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/MineClone2.git/ (posted yesterday) - but let's see what Wuzzy will do
17:44 bootlegbilly What is mesehub?
17:44 Krock whether to wait or move to another service
17:44 Krock https://git.minetest.land/
17:44 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Github but for minetest mods only
17:44 Krock used to be a Gitea server, but it's down without any further information in the forums
17:44 bootlegbilly Oh huh
17:44 bootlegbilly Why not move to Github?
17:45 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Also mineclone 2, pull requests are disabled
17:45 MTDiscord <G​enshin> :trollface:
17:45 Krock IIRC it was created after MS bought GitHub, as an alternative for more librety
17:46 Krock but apparently on cost of reliability
17:46 MTDiscord <J​ordach> Well the liberties of GH never changed tho
17:46 Krock it's the mindset that changed, though.
17:46 MTDiscord <J​ordach> I mean Actions is a cool use of Azure
17:46 MTDiscord <G​enshin> mfw MS turned github into a linked in but for programmers
17:47 bootlegbilly Eh honestly I don't mind the change much
17:47 bootlegbilly I'm happy that private repos are free now for example
17:47 bootlegbilly But yea MS owning everything is kind of a bummer
17:47 MTDiscord <J​ordach> Honestly I treat GH as a tool not a person thats going to ruin everything :^)
17:47 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Money is power m8
17:48 bootlegbilly Wdym Genshin
17:49 MTDiscord <G​enshin> MS: "You can buy everything if you have the money for it"  *Buys Github and Bethesda"
17:50 bootlegbilly Oh they bought Bethesda too?
17:50 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Yep
17:50 Krock soon Fallout integration in GitHub
17:50 bootlegbilly Also Krock is there any reason that the git server went down?
17:50 bootlegbilly Money reasons?
17:50 Krock login with gamer account
17:50 bootlegbilly There are alternatives at leas
17:50 bootlegbilly Like Gitlab
17:50 Krock bootlegbilly: no one knows
17:50 bootlegbilly But servers are expensive :(
17:50 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Fallout will become xbox/windows exclusive
17:51 bootlegbilly So what are they planning on doing atm Krock
17:51 bootlegbilly I kinda wanted to help work on development a lil
17:51 Krock bootlegbilly: could you please consider reading my messages?
17:51 Krock > but let's see what Wuzzy will do {..} Krock> whether to wait or move to another service
17:51 bootlegbilly I read that they were considering changing or not
17:51 bootlegbilly But waiting for what exactly
17:51 Krock nothing happened yet
17:52 Krock well, whether the servers will be up soon again, or whether it's a persistent state
17:53 bootlegbilly Huh alright
17:53 bootlegbilly Is there any contact info about the people who own the servers?
17:53 Krock MineCLone2 was actively maintained here previously: https://repo.or.cz/MineClone/MineClone2.git/  so if that server stays down, we might expect commits there again
17:53 MTDiscord <J​onathon> wuzzy already reached out
17:53 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Depends if they leave contact info
17:53 Krock good to hear. nothing more than that happened, I guess?
17:53 MTDiscord <J​onathon> or thats what he said via the forums
17:53 MTDiscord <J​onathon> i didn't see anything today
17:55 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock, also I just replied and added further details on the occurence. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10438
17:56 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Probably is a issue with 5.0.1 that im not aware of
17:56 MTDiscord <J​onathon> > I kinda wanted to help work on development a lil seems best bet is to fork mineclone2 and do your own thing given the past of no prs
17:57 Krock G​enshin: so what about the digging animation of players? does that work?
17:57 erlehmann in case anyone likes the MNT reform, a friend made a mod to be able to make the computer in minetest! https://github.com/Li0nsDickachu/minetest-mod-mntreform
17:57 Krock also: node placement and key updates might run async
17:58 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock
17:58 MTDiscord <G​enshin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/760198821338021898/Screenshot_20200928-135818_Minetest.jpg
17:58 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Animation is working
17:59 Krock I mean those from mobile players
17:59 Krock not watching your own model
17:59 Krock because that's handled locally
17:59 bootlegbilly erlehmann told me to use https://github.com/kay27/MineClone2
17:59 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Hmm
18:00 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Going to see it on my point of view while staring at mobile_user on PC
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18:00 Krock Genshin: a globalstep callback would also be more accurate to find out whether something changed. node placement might be too tightly timed
18:00 MTDiscord <G​enshin> So could it be a delay thing?
18:00 erlehmann bootlegbilly, please don't tell ppl i tell them to use microsoft github :P
18:01 erlehmann bootlegbilly, because MS github is shit (disclaimer: they hellbanned me once for no reason, took it back after i noticed and i never used github again for my projects)
18:02 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock. They seem to not be animating on my screen over on PC
18:02 Krock Genshin: I'd bet on that
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18:02 Krock hmm
18:03 Krock the last significant change into this direction was #7924
18:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7924 -- Allow binding dig, place actions to keys; remove LMB/RMB hardcoding by ClobberXD
18:04 Krock i.e. client version dependant
18:04 bootlegbilly Holy shit erlehmann, did they say why?
18:04 bootlegbilly Iǘe honestly never had issues
18:04 bootlegbilly I've*
18:05 erlehmann bootlegbilly, no of course not, they only told me they would flag my account so automated processes did not hellban it again
18:05 erlehmann but it was bad because i was working on some customer project
18:05 erlehmann and the customer could suddenly not see any of my stuff
18:05 erlehmann so i use my own server now
18:06 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7924/files#diff-b5b39c3a29359759ac6f0293dc37a453R277
18:07 Krock what the hell
18:07 Krock this should be joystick.getWasKeyDown(KeyType::MOUSE_L)
18:08 MTDiscord <G​enshin> @wsor was mobile_user animation on your end?
18:08 MTDiscord <J​ordach> Commit revert in 10, 9, ...
18:09 MTDiscord <G​enshin> lmao
18:09 MTDiscord <G​enshin> so, confirmed bug yet?
18:11 MTDiscord <J​onathon> uh, idk, I only saw you open and shut a door, sorry
18:11 MTDiscord <J​onathon> i can rejoin and stream here
18:11 MTDiscord <G​enshin> but did you seen walk animations, or punching animations?
18:11 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client/game.cpp#L2492-L2493  though this should work just fine
18:11 Krock the function I linked previously is not used that often
18:12 erlehmann bootlegbilly Krock i asked wuzzy to upload all their stuff to the old repo and they just did https://repo.or.cz/MineClone/MineClone2.git/
18:12 Krock hence just a minor bug which is yet undiscovered
18:12 MTDiscord <J​onathon> i saw your arm move, so punch animation
18:12 Krock erlehmann: cool
18:12 Krock erlehmann: I had that as my git remote until a few months ago when I learned that it's outdated for years :3
18:13 erlehmann Krock, well now it's back
18:13 erlehmann back again
18:13 erlehmann wuzzy's back
18:13 erlehmann tell a friend
18:13 MTDiscord <G​enshin> try rejoininig and stream it
18:13 MTDiscord <G​enshin> @wsor
18:13 erlehmann guess who's back guess who's back guess who's back
18:13 erlehmann NA NANA NANANANANA
18:14 MTDiscord <J​onathon> good grief
18:14 MTDiscord <J​onathon> and ok geshen
18:14 MTDiscord <J​onathon> and ok geshen
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18:16 MTDiscord <J​onathon> @/g/ in the house
18:16 MTDiscord <G​enshin> okay
18:16 MTDiscord <G​enshin> type /spawn
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18:18 MTDiscord <J​onathon> that was 5.3.0 btw
18:18 MTDiscord <J​onathon> if it maters
18:18 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock, animation confirmed on 5.3.0 client. however could be like you've said. might be a delayed thing
18:19 MTDiscord <G​enshin> i wasn't seeing much animation on 5.1.0-dev
18:19 MTDiscord <J​onathon> i have 5.0.1, 5.1.1, 5.2.0 if you want to watch those as well
18:19 MTDiscord <G​enshin> tyr 5.0.1
18:27 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock, viewing at 5.0.1. animations were a bit broken for mobile users
18:28 MTDiscord <G​enshin> they get stuck at times
18:28 MTDiscord <G​enshin> in a single animation
18:28 Krock as long the punch animation appears it's fine
18:28 Krock animation issues is a different topic
18:29 Krock ...also one that I'd prefer to not dig into too deep
18:29 MTDiscord <J​onathon> anyways, you good now geshen?
18:29 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > ...also one that I'd prefer to not dig into too deep That's understandable
18:30 MTDiscord <G​enshin> yeah, im good now
18:30 MTDiscord <J​onathon> ok 👍  going to go tinker with inv
18:30 MTDiscord <G​enshin> going to try Krock's method in getting the input
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18:38 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Still getting the same output
18:38 MTDiscord <G​enshin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/760208830952636477/Screenshot_20200928-143803_Minetest.jpg
18:40 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Wait, pc is getting the same output, but then returns true after keeping it on hold
18:40 Krock timing issues.
18:40 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Trying on mobile now
18:42 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Since mobile can't hold, they arent having any luck
18:42 MTDiscord <G​enshin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/760209803233591357/Screenshot_20200928-144142_Minetest.jpg
18:42 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Yep, timing issue
18:44 MTDiscord <G​enshin> This is the output while on PC
18:44 MTDiscord <G​enshin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/760210381356007474/Screenshot_at_2020-09-28_14-44-17.png
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18:51 MTDiscord <G​enshin> going to test this with punch
18:58 bootlegbilly Hey guys
18:58 bootlegbilly I found a wayback copy of all the issues
18:58 bootlegbilly It's annyoing and slow but I could write a scraper to save them all
18:58 bootlegbilly https://web.archive.org/web/20200822050137/https://git.minetest.land/Wuzzy/MineClone2/issues
18:58 bootlegbilly It's from august 22 of this year
19:01 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock, yep still leads to timing issues
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19:13 MTDiscord <G​enshin> wrote down evidence https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10438
19:20 MTDiscord <G​enshin> hopefully there's a fix to this
19:21 MTDiscord <G​enshin> if not, i understand
19:21 Krock the fix is to assume that place/RMB is pressed when on_placenode is called
19:22 Krock since key presses are sent in the same packet as player movements which are non-reliable and on another channel, I don't think this will be "fixed" soon
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19:22 Krock it also wouldn't work for older clients or older servers
19:23 MTDiscord <G​enshin> also i noticed that dragonfire client users when they are performing autoplace are also not returning LMB or RMB inputs
19:23 MTDiscord <G​enshin> those end up returning false
19:25 Krock you could also use the scalar product of the view "angle" and placed node to figure out whether the node is approximately within their view
19:25 Krock assuming -90° to 90° is enough to cover lag and outdated data
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19:55 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > it also wouldn't work for older clients or older servers Krock, that's perfectly understandable
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20:01 MTDiscord <J​ordach> Max amount of lag around the planet is 0.35s
20:01 MTDiscord <J​ordach> For even the most basic of broadband networks
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20:06 Krock J​ordach: yes sure. if you go over satellites, that's gonna be a multiple
20:10 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Detecting players not pressing RMB to place nodes doesn't sound like it's worth the trouble to implement as an anti-cheat because it seems like cheat clients would very easily just add the RMB press/release to bypass it.  Placing hurdles in front of cheaters is a good thing, but not so much if dragging the hurdles onto the field takes a lot more work for you than clearing them does for them.
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20:15 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Then i guess making detections for autoplace and autodig is out of the question due to inaccuracies
20:16 MTDiscord <I​hrFussel> MT even offers builtin spam right-clicking...you can set the repeat value to 0.01
20:17 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> It's not so much "out of the question" as "you explored the question and the answer is probably no" :-)
20:17 erlehmann > Detecting players not pressing RMB to place nodes
20:17 erlehmann wtf
20:17 erlehmann what about ppl who don't even use a mouse
20:17 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> i.e. I think your investigation made sense so far, it's just going further doesn't look promising now.
20:18 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> doesn't matter whether you use a mouse or not
20:18 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> you can use a trackball or a touchscreen or whatever
20:18 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> MT still sends those control inputs
20:18 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> though they may send them for extremely short time periods making it impossible to catch in practice
20:19 MTDiscord <I​hrFussel> It's like mobile browser...they translate touches/taps to drag/clicks
20:19 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> If MT ever adds keybindings for digging/placing by keyboard, those will almost certainly either get new control flags, or would be mapped to LMB/RMB anyway.
20:35 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > It's not so much "out of the question" as "you explored the question and the answer is probably no" :-) out of the question or no, same thing. currently pointless to make due to flaws and inaccuracies.
20:37 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Best you could do is something probabilistic, i.e. looking at a player's behavior over the long run, detect if they never have RMB pressed, or look for changes in probability over time.  That'd probably be more useful for something like detecting hacked accounts from changes in activity patterns, rather than anti-cheat.  After all, they could just make sure to ALWAYS cheat.
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20:46 MTDiscord <G​enshin> problem with that is that android users are currently sending RMB as false
20:46 MTDiscord <G​enshin> No matter how fast they are placing down a node
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20:47 MTDiscord <G​enshin> when they are digging, LMB is returning true after holding on dig key
20:48 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> are they sending it as false, or is it simply not possible for you to see it as true because your code never runs during the like 1 microsecond when it's actually true?
20:48 MTDiscord <G​enshin> They are sending it as false
20:48 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> hmm, do they ever send RMB, like when not placing?
20:48 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Unless they are holding place key, which they can't
20:49 MTDiscord <G​enshin> It works perfectly for PC users, but not for mobile users
20:51 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Huh, wow, there really is no way to hold RMB on mobile.  That's ... bizarre
20:51 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> "works perfectly on PC" at what RTT?
20:52 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> presumably your anti-cheat mod is probably not going to be very useful for singleplayer
20:53 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Warr https://discord.com/channels/369122544273588224/369137254641303560/760155312996745236
20:53 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> yeah, I saw
20:53 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> and it was pretty obvious that was what you were doing from your screenshots
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20:55 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Actually from my screenshots, i done what krock suggested, getting controls on global step
20:57 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> It should be possible to get the controls out of order on PC too.  It will just be a heisenbug, since it will probably be quite rare, and would probably only happen under specific circumstances.  The only time you'll hear about it is some users being mad that they got banned arbitrarily by anti-cheat.
20:57 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Which is why i scrapped those detections tbh
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20:58 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Thanks to certain false positives due to timing problems
21:00 MTDiscord <G​enshin> The rest of the detections passed though
21:01 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I've found the easiest way to detect cheaters is when they either brag about how they're awesome hackers because they can fly without privs, or when they ask you what your policy is on hacked clients within 5 minutes of first connecting.
21:01 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Made a flight detection ehich so far works, also testing this on my server
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21:07 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Flight depends on vertical velocity scaling
21:08 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Also if their vertical velocity is at 0 while hovering in air
21:15 MTDiscord <G​enshin> regarding to automod (autoban/autokick), it has a trigger logic. Also can be enabled or disabled on minetest.conf
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22:16 Wuzzy hey everyone
22:16 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Hi Wuzzy
22:17 Wuzzy I wonder how many of you are on Discord right now
22:17 Wuzzy I'm an IRC person haha
22:18 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> How many are online, or how many are in the server? ;p
22:18 Wuzzy both
22:18 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> 263 online, 1063 in the server
22:19 Wuzzy wait, that cant be right... in IRC I only see 184 online
22:19 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> IRC only displays IRC users
22:19 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> this is a bridge
22:19 Wuzzy yeah right
22:19 Wuzzy 263 users behind MTDiscord
22:20 Wuzzy it kind of blows my mind
22:20 Wuzzy at least Minetest does not force anybody on Discord. I am very glad about that
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22:21 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Im just glad that we are unified
22:22 Wuzzy its still a bit ugly technically. IRC no longer shows the real usercount
22:22 Wuzzy are there commands to query the current discord usercount btw?
22:22 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Yeah, but it works well enough.
22:22 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> There is not
22:22 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> At least, I dont think so. I can implement that in my own bridge.
22:23 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> We are currently using a commonly used bridge just to get things working
22:23 MTDiscord <J​ordach> it's not like
22:24 Jordach two of us can be
22:24 MTDiscord joined #minetest
22:24 MTDiscord <J​ordach> in the same place
22:24 Wuzzy heh
22:24 Wuzzy did yo just kill MTDiscord just to make a point? 😆
22:24 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Wuzzy, someone would like an answer to this question. lol
22:24 MTDiscord <G​enshin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/760265728703725588/Screenshot_20200928-182358_Discord.jpg
22:25 Wuzzy the answer is "Wuzzy".
22:25 Wuzzy lol, the link to the question is longer than the question itself.... d'oh!
22:26 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> Coulda probably just copied the message text
22:26 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> Screenshots are nice tho
22:26 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Screenshots are better, too lazy to type
22:29 Wuzzy interesting discussion about chat: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=381465
22:29 Jordach >tries to dethrone discord
22:29 Jordach riot, matrix have both failed
22:30 Jordach https://xkcd.com/927/
22:31 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> > the answer is "Wuzzy". @Wuzzy@IRC#0000 ok
22:32 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> The Discord quote feature should be nuked
22:33 Wuzzy my issue with Discord is that they are tyrannically controlled by one company. they control everything, the protocol, the platform, the software. everything.
22:33 Jordach why do you think IRC is still preferred over these javascript bloat holes :^)
22:33 Wuzzy and the joke is, IRC *was* already the standard. the rest came later
22:34 Wuzzy I'm not even a huge fan of IRC tbh
22:35 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> wuzzy you are big nerd
22:35 Wuzzy IRC is not really approachable for newbies. there are some weird terms that normals users should never care about. like "modes"...
22:36 Wuzzy But maybe this is just a client thing. maybe IRC just needs a new, modern client with a really nice UI. I think there's nothing like that today
22:37 Jordach because all npm users have a desire to reinvent the wheel, alongside stockholm syndrome for javascript
22:37 Jordach just ask how GNOME3 is doing with those JS bindings :^)
22:37 Li0n > But maybe this is just a client thing. maybe IRC just needs a new, modern client with a really nice UI. I think there's nothing like that today
22:37 Wuzzy wait, why are we talking about npm now?
22:37 Li0n but then they can't make money off it
22:37 Jordach nice UI = javascript / electron
22:38 Wuzzy you dont need bloat for good UI design
22:38 Jordach if it looks like win32 it isn't nice ui
22:38 Li0n how will they get rich if they can't restrict features behind a paywall
22:38 Jordach except discords only restricted feature is quite literally cosmetic :^)
22:38 Wuzzy this is what bothers me the most. people don't bitch enough about abusive companies, most people accept it, not even complaining
22:39 Jordach and you wonder why FOSS evangelism isn't working out for you
22:39 Jordach make things normal people want to use, not what you want to use
22:40 MTDiscord <G​enshin> discord's only paywall is cosmetics. anything else is pretty much accessible
22:40 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> i like companies
22:40 Jordach i pay for the cosmetics to keep the lights on
22:40 Jordach it also stops those evil ad things
22:40 MTDiscord <G​enshin> it's like what, 5 bucks a month?
22:40 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> what ad things
22:41 Jordach i mean implementation of ads
22:41 MTDiscord <G​enshin> no money = ad fest
22:41 Wuzzy Just like Minetest.
22:41 MTDiscord <G​enshin> cough cough Multicraft cough
22:42 Wuzzy well they have been tolerated for years now, so...
22:42 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> why is everybody coughing now
22:42 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Sorry MoNTE48
22:42 Wuzzy wait Multicraft is now an ad-fest? HAHAHAHAHA
22:42 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > why is everybody coughing now COVID-19
22:43 Jordach Wuzzy, if it's on a iPhone or Android and the price tag is free
22:43 Jordach duck and cover
22:43 MTDiscord <G​enshin> gotta make money somehow right?
22:43 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > adds
22:44 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> > COVID-19 @/g/ its a hoax, didn't you know? /s
22:44 Wuzzy most MT devs dont make a dime off MT
22:44 Wuzzy correct me if i am wrong
22:44 Jordach >ruben's patreon >paramat's paypal donation box
22:44 Wuzzy oh right, donations. but is it significant?
22:45 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> i heard one of them got one billion dollars from an MIT grant
22:45 Jordach >Ruben $33/mo
22:45 Wuzzy wow, i am impressed. thats infinitely more than most other devs 🙂
22:46 Jordach i mean i get a cosmetic flex in his CTF server
22:46 Wuzzy Jordach: well I perfectly understand why usability is important. i understand you can't force people into FOSS (lol). but what frustrates me is when abusive behavior in software is just ... kind of accepted as normal.
22:46 Wuzzy as if its just the software world is
22:47 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> A better UI won't make me like IRC more
22:47 Jordach decided by who has the time and money to properly release something that works
22:47 Wuzzy ok to be fair. that's actually true 😆
22:47 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> IRC needs a client that simplifies everything
22:47 Jordach instead of bitching in a GitHub thread about the implementation
22:48 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> And I'm not sure a client can handle all of the simplifying that would need to be done
22:48 Wuzzy I think you can abstract a way a lot of unneccessary IRC confusion
22:48 Wuzzy not everything, sadly, but a lot
22:48 Wuzzy nobody needs to learn what "modes" are
22:49 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> I had to do some googling simply to figure out how to register an account
22:49 Wuzzy irc has no real accounts
22:49 Wuzzy there's NickServ but its server-dependent
22:49 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> Yeah
22:50 Wuzzy yeah IRC really shows its age for such basic things...
22:50 Wuzzy theres inherent complexity you cant kill with shiny ui
22:51 Jordach doubt
22:51 Wuzzy you believe oyu could kill all ugly complexity with shiny ui?
22:51 Wuzzy in IRC?
22:51 Jordach i managed to make the lounge webclient look exactly like Discords default interface with CSS
22:51 Jordach not hard
22:51 Jordach time consuming
22:52 Wuzzy its not only about look-and-feel, its also about the nitty-gritty details (like NickServ)
22:52 Jordach and that turns off normies
22:52 Wuzzy TRUUUUUUU
22:52 Jordach stop thinking as a power user and dev
22:52 Jordach sounds hard but it's doable
22:53 Wuzzy i was more talking aobut abstracting away NickServ (if thats even possible)
22:53 Wuzzy or abstracing away <totally basic but unneccessary complex feature in IRC> in general
22:54 Wuzzy and yeah, i agree that thinking as a dev is a terrible way to make an UI 🙂
22:54 Wuzzy just look at Minetest's main menu 🙁
22:55 Wuzzy I wonder why it's stalling... it seems nobody can even agree on what the new UI should look like... hmmmmmm
22:55 Wuzzy over 100 or 200 comments
23:17 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> is the teleportation glitch fixed in the newest version?
23:18 MTDiscord <G​enshin> I like IRC, but it's not meant for normies to use
23:21 lhofhansl left #minetest
23:22 Wuzzy what's the teleportation glitch?
23:23 MTDiscord <G​enshin> you mean fast/teleportation glitch when attached to entities?
23:23 Wuzzy IRC might be better if it just had one client with a nice UI
23:23 Wuzzy I personally use HexChat and I like it... but I still see that its not really for beginners lol
23:23 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > IRC might be better if it just had one client with a nice UI But it will never be, bwahahahah
23:24 Wuzzy what would YOU expect from a nice UI? just wondering
23:24 Wuzzy for chat ofc
23:24 Wuzzy or what annoys you the most in irc?
23:25 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > or what annoys you the most in irc? Honestly, nothing. lol
23:26 MTDiscord <G​enshin> some people wants fancy UI stuff
23:26 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> ye the entity glitch
23:26 MTDiscord <o​neplustwo> i heard Fleckenstein proposed a fix but she got denied
23:27 MTDiscord <G​enshin> code must be beautifully done, also views must meet other dev's opinions. or get rejected
23:29 MTDiscord <G​enshin> the fate of every PR
23:32 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > or what annoys you the most in irc? other people also find it "complicated" to log on IRC (AKA, the normies)
23:33 MTDiscord <J​onathon> > or what annoys you the most in irc? no logging, and no chat while away
23:33 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Haha, I mean, it's complicated to "log in" if you want to have a proper account, since the whole account concept is shoehorned in ... but you can literally just go to a webchat client, enter a name and a channel and get right in...
23:33 MTDiscord <J​onathon> yea you can fix those with outside things, but thats outside
23:33 Emperor_Genshin joined #minetest
23:33 Genshin o/
23:34 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> wsor: it doesn't exactly have to be "outside"; it's just not really in common practice for IRC networks to provide those since they assume you'll want to bring your own anyway.
23:34 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Even Discord is basically just a glorified client bundled with a rewrite of XMPP/IRC over HTTP
23:35 Genshin ^
23:36 Genshin re-inventing the wheel
23:36 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> IRC is only more complicated because you're aware of the underlying service as an independent thing.  If FreeNode decided to create a product (call it, say, FreeNoob) which connected to the same chatrooms but bundled a somewhat polished client, ordinary users would hardly be able to tell the difference from Discord.
23:36 MTDiscord <J​onathon> yeah, i guess, but "or what annoys you the most in irc?" that was what was asked
23:36 MTDiscord <J​onathon> so i answered
23:37 Genshin mwf you can see images without having to click on urls
23:37 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> IRC is also a standard more than an implementation, so that fact that it doesn't have history logging per-user is actually a convention, but not a strict requirement.  It CAN be done, it just isn't done commonly...
23:37 Genshin ^This is true
23:37 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I was very annoyed by IRC's completely terrible mobile support.  Its model of connectivity just doesn't work for devices that are meant to be in sleep mode and unable to maintain an active network connection 99% of the time.
23:38 Wuzzy wait, so Discord is actually just a rip-off of XMPP? LOL
23:38 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> My workaround for this was TheLounge client.  It's designed for mobile multi-device use, supports native push notifications, etc., but it's a true IRC client that I can self-host.
23:39 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Discord, Slack, Mattermost, Stride, whatever ... they're all basically just spiritual remakes of XMPP, which arguably was just an overly complicated redo of AIM/ICQ, which were themselves just centralized remakes of IRC...
23:40 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> The decentralization of IRC is actually one of the things that almost none of the remakes/reinventions have done yet, with the exception maybe of Matrix
23:40 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Just the fact alone that AIM/ICQ came after IRC really dates it
23:40 Genshin it's just LMD re-inventing the weel kind of thing
23:40 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> haha, IRC was itself I think an extension of an older unix talk protocol
23:41 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Matrix brings back the true decentralization of IRC.  XMPP is "federated" but its chatrooms (which are an extension) still have to live on one particular host, so if that host goes down, the "netsplit" that happens just basically leaves everyone completely isolated.  IRC's ability to fail only partially is a pretty cool feature.
23:42 hanetzer joined #minetest
23:42 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I think Matrix is supposed to do all that stuff, but it's several orders of magnitude more complex than IRC, and even more than XMPP...
23:42 Wuzzy complex to implement or complex to use?
23:42 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> to implement
23:43 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> If you mean to use a client by "to use"
23:43 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I mean, it's complex to implement a client that uses the protocol
23:43 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> but whether the client itself is simple to use depends almost entirely on the client
23:43 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I tried out Riot.im.  It seemed alright.
23:44 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> The fact that I couldn't run my own homeserver for Matrix because I didn't have a powerful enough server even to connect for my own personal use really felt crappy to me though.  That felt like a big damper on the decentralization thing, which for Matrix was supposed to be even better than IRC.
23:45 Wuzzy huh?
23:45 Wuzzy this surprises me
23:45 Wuzzy you can't run a server even if it just for 1 user for testing??? wow
23:45 riff-IRC what are they using, java?
23:45 Genshin <@737608004761026642> regarding to the glitch, it's still being processed. it wasn
23:46 Genshin wasn't patched yet
23:46 Wuzzy what's this long number meaning, Genshin?
23:46 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Last I saw of Matrix, their "server" component only had what I guess was meant to be a "reference implementation" in Python: it demonstrated the capabilities of the protocol well, and was the "canonical" implementation but it was super inefficient.  There were supposedly others but they were "unofficial" and I didn't want to get into aftermarket until I'd gotten familiar with OEM first.
23:46 Genshin It's just a ping
23:46 Genshin it's the user's ID
23:46 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Wuzzy: that long number means that the IRC/Discord bridge is not doing a great job of translating usernames.
23:46 Genshin same as if i was using Wuzzy to ping you
23:47 Wuzzy What happens if I say "Warr1024"?
23:47 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Discord seems to use different formats for mentions/pings and that makes bridges/bots for it a pain to maintain.
23:47 Genshin it won't ping warr
23:47 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> if you just say a Discord user's name bare, it gets no special detection.  Discord convention is to prefix an @ sign
23:47 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Geez, why is every bridge dropping the ball on snowflake ids lately
23:48 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> and that depends on whether the bot supports conversion, and whether it's not buggy.
23:48 Wuzzy well, IRC "pings" are entirely client-side anyway
23:48 Genshin because they are sensitive, needs more brain power and logic
23:48 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> oh wait no
23:48 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> you pinged from IRC
23:48 MTDiscord <G​enshin> > yep
23:48 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> GX: Discord seems like they must have changed the ID formats, or introduced new kinds of tags or something, but they still use the old formats in certain other contexts?
23:48 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> No no, the bridge is fine
23:48 Wuzzy it just a convention. users can turn off the beep if your name was said
23:48 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Genshin just doesnt know how to ping people
23:49 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> that's not always a bad thing :-)
23:49 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> You can ping users using their snowflake ID, but you dont need to
23:49 Wuzzy is there a setting in discord that makes you beep when your name is said (without any special characters?)
23:49 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I don't think Discord does stuff like custom keyword notifications or anything...
23:49 Wuzzy boo!
23:49 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> That would get chaotic rather fast
23:49 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I mean, it's not exactly as scriptable as people in the IRC world are used to either :-)
23:49 Wuzzy Now I have a real excuse to never use Discord 😛
23:50 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> No you dont x)
23:50 Genshin all you need is to @<user>#<4 digit number ID>
23:50 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> On the Discord side, yes
23:50 Wuzzy ok my actual excuse is that I'm a FOSS zealot
23:50 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> that makes more sense
23:50 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> In the Discord client, to ping someone, you type an @ and then use the autocompletion dropdown.
23:50 MTDiscord <G​enshin> ^Easy stuff
23:50 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> With the IRC bridge you can just use @ and someones nick/username and it will figure it out for you
23:50 Wuzzy but can you get beeped withuot the @?
23:51 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> That would defeat the purpose
23:51 Genshin @G​reenXenith, so is this correct?
23:51 MTDiscord <G​enshin> nope
23:51 Wuzzy i mean is there a client setting or something?
23:51 MTDiscord <G​enshin> XD
23:51 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Yeah, I wouldn't pressure someone to switch from IRC to Discord.  I run a Discord for NodeCore but I have IRC bridges for all the important channels there too.
23:51 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> probably doesnt like the comma
23:51 Wuzzy OMG
23:51 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Wuzzy: The function of pings in Discord is fundamentally different from that of IRC. So no.
23:51 Wuzzy haha, the comma counts as part of the username? LOL
23:51 Genshin okay, so... hmm
23:51 Genshin @G​reenXenith
23:51 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Well damn
23:51 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Hahah
23:51 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I'm actually on both IRC and Discord, but I stay out of the IRC channels I'm already on Discord for because I don't wanna keep pinging myself :-D
23:52 Wuzzy What about this?: @GreenZenith: I wrote a colon.
23:52 Genshin Let's try this just for giggles
23:52 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> The bridge has a feature where it adds a special character to usernames so it wont ping you on the IRC side
23:52 Genshin @GreenXenith#3232
23:52 MTDiscord <G​enshin> there we go
23:52 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> snowflake id?
23:52 MTDiscord <G​enshin> GreenXenith #3232
23:52 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Discord pings are actually basically a form of internal markup within the message body, while IRC pings are searching for like /\b${myusername}\b/i in the plaintext.
23:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3232 -- Fix vrange min/max adjusting when min exceeds max by kilbith
23:52 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> oh, full id works
23:53 Wuzzy remember, IRC knows no pings at all. it's just a client side thing that just most IRC clients happen to implement. its not standardized tho
23:53 Genshin just testing the bot, you can thank me later :P
23:53 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Huh, ok ShadowBot, thankyou for giving me something to test on MinetestBot
23:53 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> My IRC client annoys me by only allowing me to mute notifications or add extra ones by keyword, but doesn't let me customize this stuff per-channel.
23:54 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Haha, MinetestBot is superior.
23:54 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> It doesnt link github issues if the # is part of a word
23:54 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> What does MinetestBot's embed stuff even look like on IRC?  Do they just see the text part?
23:54 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> or do you just have it disable din here?
23:54 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Thers a reason I have bots disabled here
23:54 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> theres*
23:55 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Embeds just dont work in plaintext
23:55 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> You can write converters, but they never work well
23:55 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> The only reason I left link embeds on is because those are clientside
23:56 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> yeah, it's just weird to think of explicitly setting up embeds.  The only use of embeds I ever do is the ones that Discord automatically does when you drop specific kinds of links.
23:56 MTDiscord <G​enshin> nope
23:56 MTDiscord <G​enshin> disregard, lol didn't scrolled down
23:57 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I guess, since I've had my IRC bridges longer than MTU has, maybe I'm used to thinking differently about them.
23:57 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> Yeah, don't forget that edits and deletions are not a thing in IRC
23:57 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> Ive been using an IRC bridge on my server for like 3 years
23:57 MTDiscord <G​enshin> already aware
23:57 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> and the IRC channels tend to be logged so what you really said will still be public :-)
23:58 riff-IRC kinda like this
23:59 MTDiscord <G​enshin> so if someone says something stupid in this channel then deletes it, IRC will always remember
23:59 MTDiscord <G​enshin> which is a nice addition
23:59 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> yep
23:59 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> It's ElCeejo-proof

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