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IRC log for #minetest, 2020-05-11

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Time Nick Message
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01:18 dennisjenkins Is this the appropriate IRC channel to ask questions about the histoty of the pipeworks mod?
01:23 rubenwardy sure
01:23 rubenwardy VanessaE ^
01:24 dennisjenkins Wuzzy recently fixed up the Hades Revisited game so that it works on minetest v5.2.0.  it contains a pipeworks mod that appears to be older (lacks sorting tubes), and is licensed under the WTFPL.
01:24 dennisjenkins VanessaE's (iirc) is under the LGPL and is much more recent.
01:24 dennisjenkins I am considering attempting to replace the older pipeworks in Hades w/ the newer one, but wanted to know why the license changed.
01:25 dennisjenkins Complicating this is tht Wuzzy eliminated the "default" namespace, which I read in Ruben's book is a recommended practice.
01:25 dennisjenkins And I'm new to Lua...
01:25 dennisjenkins But I figured that I'd try.
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01:51 Lone_Wolf Need to pull an Edgar Poe and chop up default into smaller mods that default depends upon
01:51 * Lone_Wolf runs
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02:46 dennisjenkins Is there an in-game command to list all node types defined in a mod, or in a mod's namespace?
02:56 Wuzzy no
02:58 dennisjenkins Hello Wuzzy.
02:59 dennisjenkins I am currently trying to hack up Vanessa's latest pipeworks to work in Hades.  I am unsure what to do with most of the code that references "default."
03:05 dennisjenkins For example, in "pipeworks/trashcan.lua", the formspec references "default.gui_bg" and 3 other items in 'defualt'.  I've looked at the formspecs in hades_furnace and hades_chest, and cannot find an analog, or I don't know what I'm looking at.
03:08 dennisjenkins "gui_slots" (from default.gui_slots) only appears in pipeworks.  Grepping for "gui_slots" (in some other namespace) in all hades mods finds nothing.
03:13 luk3yx dennisjenkins: default.gui_bg, default.gui_bg_img, and default.gui_slots can probably be empty strings (https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/default/legacy.lua).
03:13 dennisjenkins ah, I should have checked what they resolve to.  ty for the pointer.
03:14 dennisjenkins I'm new to minetest and new to lua, but have years of C/C++/asm/Unix experience; so I'm just kinda jumping in.
03:16 dennisjenkins I should try just loading the 'default' mod into the Hades game (as a temp measure).  I know that wuzzy purposefully removed it (and based on my reading of Ruben's book, this was correct).
03:20 Wuzzy dennisjenkins: I have put in the background image on a per-node / per-task basis
03:20 Wuzzy furnace has its own background image, crafting inventory has its own, etc.
03:21 Wuzzy so there is no default.gui_bg_img for obvious reasons
03:21 Wuzzy And yes, I have changed the pipeworks mod to replace all the default references with the new references
03:22 Wuzzy but I'm not too happy with mesecons and pipeworks being in hades in the first place. imo this stuff doesnt fit in the game, about what i want to achieve
03:22 dennisjenkins What do I do with "default.get_hotbar_bg()" ?
03:22 Wuzzy nothing?
03:22 Wuzzy context?
03:22 dennisjenkins ok, that's fair.  However, I would like to get them to work together.
03:23 Wuzzy yeah sadly you have to modify pipeworks to make it compatible again
03:23 Wuzzy its a shame that pipeworks hard-depends on default, which is very very bad
03:24 Wuzzy why does pipeworks need the hotbar_bg in the first place?
03:24 dennisjenkins the pipeworks.trashcan calls "default.get_hotbar_bg(args)" in the formspec.  Grepping around in other mods, I see that 'minetest_game/bones/init.lua" also calls that.  So I'm comparing hades's bones w/ minetest_game's bones, and I don't see what to replace it with.
03:24 dennisjenkins I have no idea what it is
03:24 dennisjenkins IDK if I need it.
03:24 dennisjenkins IIUC, the formspec is just a way to tell the GUI how to draw a form in the UI.
03:25 dennisjenkins but IDK what needs to be preserved and what does not matter.
03:25 dennisjenkins I default (bad pun) to assuming that it all matters.
03:25 Wuzzy oh i remember now. this is just for a special slot color/design for the hotbar slots in inventory
03:25 Wuzzy you can safely skip it
03:26 Wuzzy there's no special hotbar design in Hades Revisited, so it can be removed
03:27 dennisjenkins ok, ty
03:27 dennisjenkins so, I how have a pipeworks that loads w/out crashing, but I had to comment out everything except for the trashcan.
03:28 Wuzzy lol
03:28 dennisjenkins right-clicking on the trashcan in hades does nothing, and in minetest_game, it shows the form.
03:28 dennisjenkins one step at a time...
03:28 Wuzzy the trashcan is in trash_can mod ...
03:28 Wuzzy so you have to remove it from your pipeworks fork
03:29 Wuzzy its likely i just nuke pipeworks in the game...
03:29 dennisjenkins My son and I spent weeks terraforming a hades world, got down the the mese, and some flying demon thing.  Also spent weeks playing in minetest_game w/ pipeworks, technic, mesecons.  We want to do the automation stuff in hades. :)
03:29 dennisjenkins the pipeworks trashcan can receive a pipe and trashed what is sent it.
03:30 dennisjenkins does the hades_trashcan do that/
03:30 dennisjenkins ?
03:30 Wuzzy no idea
03:30 Wuzzy but probably not
03:30 Wuzzy given that its using an ancient pipeworks version
03:30 dennisjenkins If you remove pipeworks from hades, then how will the player move/create water sources?
03:30 Wuzzy it will be impossible 🙂
03:31 Wuzzy i need to think of a different way, obviously
03:31 Wuzzy i think the current way of moving water sources is just clunky
03:31 Wuzzy i mean, you can move solid blocks pretty much instantly, while moving a single liquid requires tons of iron
03:31 dennisjenkins I'd like to ask you to consider updating, but disabling by default, pipeworks and mesecons.  Players that want it can manually enabled them.
03:32 dennisjenkins I've been disabling volcanos / lava flows by just dropping tons of ash into them.
03:32 dennisjenkins but to convert a lava lake into a water lake requires getting flowing water (up sometimes) to contact the lava source.
03:32 Wuzzy it seems pointless to put much work in a major gameplay mechanic only to disable it...
03:33 Wuzzy if players want to frequently disable te gameplay mechanic, then i have failed as a game designer lol
03:33 dennisjenkins fair.
03:33 Wuzzy about automation: fair point
03:33 dennisjenkins but since the game is open-ended, and we (my son and I) have gotten bored.  We've essentially "beat" the game.
03:34 dennisjenkins and want to have fun now.
03:34 Wuzzy but its also kind of OP
03:34 Wuzzy hehe yes i get what you mean with "beaten" the game
03:34 Wuzzy you have explored all that is to explore. there is nothing more to do.
03:34 Wuzzy yes this is always a big challenge with sandbox games. making sure players dont burn through the content too quickly
03:35 Wuzzy or having just too little content to begin with
03:35 Wuzzy so adding more interesting/fun things to do in the game is also something important.
03:35 dennisjenkins http://www.ecoligames.com/~djenkins/Games/minetest/hades-0.4.3-terraformed.png
03:36 dennisjenkins its slow to start, using stone tools until you get deep enough that iron becomes plentiful enough to make steel tools.
03:36 Wuzzy I can absolutely understand that you get bored. you simply ran out of content. thats why.
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03:36 dennisjenkins after you harvest iron faster than you consume it, the game is much easier / faster.
03:37 Wuzzy the progression needs a major rebalance, i agree
03:37 dennisjenkins the weird grey rectangle in the lower right is our ~300m open pit mine.
03:37 dennisjenkins Anyway, currently I need to figure out why the ported pipeworks trashcan ignores right-click.
03:38 Wuzzy Automation is a very interesting point you bring up. yes its obviously useful in gameplay. i am not sure if thats the direction i want to go with HR...
03:38 Wuzzy i mean, mesecons and pipeworks have been done to DEATH in Minetest already.
03:39 Wuzzy and it takes quite some time to actually figure out mesecons builds to actually automate some things
03:39 dennisjenkins I'd be fine w/ just pipeworks.
03:39 Wuzzy but i dont want HR to be a game about building machinery at all
03:39 dennisjenkins in hades
03:39 Wuzzy Well.
03:40 dennisjenkins I understand.  But I'd like to be able to get it to work anyway, even if you don't add it to your repo.
03:40 Wuzzy I think having *some* automation might still be an aspect in the game
03:40 dennisjenkins http://www.ecoligames.com/~djenkins/Games/minetest/mineral-processing-facility.png
03:40 dennisjenkins that is in my non-hades world.
03:40 Wuzzy hehe. i see.
03:41 Wuzzy srsly, technic is almost a new game in its own right
03:41 dennisjenkins lots of 'detector tubes" lighting up the lightstones.  but not needed in hades.
03:41 Wuzzy but i dont just want to copy over mods that have been done to death. i want to make something new
03:41 dennisjenkins I just really want two things working in hades: sorting tubes and furances that auto-ignite when coal + burnables are in them.
03:42 dennisjenkins the current pipeworks + hades_furances are somehow broken.
03:42 Wuzzy another possibility is that I just come up with a different concept of pipeworks. one that isnt massively overcomplex
03:42 dennisjenkins feeding coal into bottom of furnace, and ore into side, furance does not auto-ignore.
03:42 dennisjenkins ignite
03:42 dennisjenkins if I right click on furance, remove either fuel or item, then add it back, it fires up.
03:42 Wuzzy Hmmm yeah i really need to think about how to automate things. and to what extent
03:42 Wuzzy yes yes i totally get the bug report
03:43 Wuzzy but i dont care about fixing it because i dont really like pipeworks haha
03:43 dennisjenkins Ah, i wasn't sure if you saw my email, but I didn't want to badger you about it.
03:43 Wuzzy as pipeworks might be nuked
03:43 Wuzzy I guess what i need to do is to experiment with different concepts and stuff
03:44 Wuzzy Just to have something unique and refreshing. not beating dead horses over and over again
03:44 Wuzzy I get why automation is desirable tho
03:44 dennisjenkins Another option is to extract the map-gen from hades, and get that to work in a minetest_game, which has the 'default' mod, and pipeworks "just works".
03:45 Wuzzy automation makes boring/grindy tasks easy as pie. automation does not neccessarily need pipeworks for that. there are a billion of other ways to implement an automation system i guess lol
03:46 dennisjenkins We (my son and I) wanted to rig up tubes to drop off picks and apples into bottom of our mining pit, and have a chest + filter at bottom that we drop our ore off into.
03:46 Wuzzy btw i'm glad you still have fun with the game even in this very experimental stage 🙂
03:46 dennisjenkins At 300m down, its a long ass haul to get up and down to get new supplies and drop off ore.
03:47 Wuzzy there are elevators tho
03:47 dennisjenkins The ore would go up, get sorted, coal + ore would smelt the ore into ingots, autocraft to picks, drop thse back down.
03:47 Wuzzy more like glorified teleporters actually
03:47 dennisjenkins also make red bricks from clay.
03:47 dennisjenkins yes
03:47 dennisjenkins thought about using those.
03:48 Wuzzy hmmm meh. ok even if i keep pipework it definitely needs an update. or a redo. current version is bad.
03:48 dennisjenkins If the vacuum pipes work, we plan to lay them across the bottom of a forest, then clear-cut it from time to time, and automate the harvesting of apples, leaves (-> plastic -> pipes), and tree trunks (needed to make wood for pick handles).
03:48 dennisjenkins I started on trying to port over the current pipeworks, but you would likely be able to knock it out in a few hours.
03:49 Wuzzy maybe, maybe not
03:49 Wuzzy It took me almost a week just to cleanup the default mess lol
03:49 Wuzzy I had to touch a huge amount of code
03:50 Wuzzy default had its ugly, filthy tentacles spread absolutely everywhere, which is why it took so long
03:51 Wuzzy but it was absolutely worth it. tightly coupled code is not fun
03:51 dennisjenkins :)  Yup.  I've done my fair share of refactoring other's long dead code too.  Minetest/lue are just new framework to code it for me.
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03:51 dennisjenkins ISTm that pipeworks itself should be able to decouple from default, except for the crafting recipes.
03:51 Wuzzy and yes, rubenwardy is 100% right for advicing to never ever add a default mod in new games
03:52 Wuzzy technically, the crafting recipes arent even a dependency
03:52 dennisjenkins then ppl could add it into any game that they wanted with minimal effort.
03:52 Wuzzy you can add crafting recipes for everything, really theres 0 checking on whether the mods exist
03:52 dennisjenkins I suppose.  You can have game mechanics and just omit ability to craft the thing.
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03:53 Wuzzy but it will get ugly as soon you have crafting guides, which happily show invalid recipes
03:53 Wuzzy my usualy response is to just make a mod check and declare it as optional dependency
03:53 Wuzzy although i doubt that even that optional depenceny is stricly required
03:54 Wuzzy whats your latest project in your world?
03:54 Wuzzy have any nice builds so far?
03:54 Wuzzy or is it just about aquiring a lot of resources? 🙂
03:55 dennisjenkins Many projects that we swap back and forth on.  One was clearing a huge lava field into a water lake, planting lots of fertile sand (100 x 100, so LOTS), then growing more trees.
03:56 dennisjenkins but we already have more than enough apples per harvest for 3 players (myself, my son and my daughter).
03:56 dennisjenkins digging the pit down to get gold at -300m.  IIRC, we're at -280 or so.
03:56 dennisjenkins My son build some sort of house.  I didn't bother.
03:57 dennisjenkins We actually have 3 hades worlds.  One is purely for testing things and has enemies disabled.
03:57 dennisjenkins Another strangely has very few mountains, is mostly +4/-4 pillars of stone.
03:57 dennisjenkins so I cleared a huge flat area and we're going to built pits to trap the spiders in, to get their silk.
03:57 dennisjenkins we build long glass bridges over everything, so we can walk around at night, safe from the enmies.
03:58 dennisjenkins they don't spawn on tree tops or glass.
03:58 AidanLCB_ if I never play on single player is there any point to installing minetest_game
03:58 Wuzzy no, unless you plan to start a Minetest Game server
03:59 Wuzzy I'm surprised you don't already have Minetest Game installed. I thought it comes always pre-installed
03:59 AidanLCB_ i always compile from source as i use linux
03:59 dennisjenkins Wuzzy, if it helps you refine HR, my son is also playing a singleplayer game that has lots of missions in it.  He has like a checklist of things to do.  (like dig 1000 blocks).  This might be your tutorial world, idk.
03:59 dennisjenkins he likes the checklist.
04:00 Wuzzy ah something like achievements, i see 🙂
04:00 dennisjenkins so maybe "winning" HR is also about obtaining some accomplishments, and the big one is building a rocket to get home, or building a radio transmitter to call home.
04:00 dennisjenkins OMG... like the Atari 2600 "ET" game.....
04:01 dennisjenkins As it is, it seems that the end of the game is to acquire the Staff of Gaia.
04:01 Wuzzy No. The game is open-ended, so there will be no ending to the game
04:01 Wuzzy heh right. its like the most expensive item right now
04:01 dennisjenkins but once you get to about -150m, emeralds are plentiful enough that you can just craft the diamonds and other gems from left over emerlads.
04:01 Wuzzy yes yes. this gem conversion is really odd
04:01 dennisjenkins just dig a 16x16 pit, straight down.
04:02 dennisjenkins you need ~4.2 stone picks per layer
04:02 dennisjenkins ~2 steel picks per layer
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04:02 Wuzzy note that i did not originally create this game. i just picked it up
04:02 dennisjenkins assuming no obsticals.
04:02 dennisjenkins yes
04:02 Wuzzy and I still carry over a lot of mechanics from the original
04:02 Wuzzy but I think a lot of mechanics need closer examinaiton, and a redo
04:03 dennisjenkins The game's text intro is "your ship crashed, your crew mates are now mutants, you're stuck here.  survive".
04:03 dennisjenkins For me, I don't see a point in creating a house w/ homedecor like junk in it.
04:03 Wuzzy yeh, thats something more or less bound to change
04:03 dennisjenkins at some point, terraforming the place is not practical for 1-3 players.
04:04 dennisjenkins without gaining powerups along the way.
04:04 Wuzzy oh boy. i havend even started to think about multiplayer right now
04:04 dennisjenkins pipeworks might be boring to others, but I only discovered this game recently, and they are fun for us to play with, and I hope to port the latest version to work.
04:05 dennisjenkins yeah, my kids and I play in the same world.
04:05 dennisjenkins My daughter wants to build cute houses and eat all of our apples (so I have to hide spares in a chest underground).
04:05 dennisjenkins but she's 5.
04:05 dennisjenkins My son and I are trying to 'conquer' the land.
04:05 Wuzzy yeah, i def. need to figure out a more natural way to make multiplayer work. definitely not just like singleplayer with with more players throwin into the same world
04:05 dennisjenkins why not?
04:05 Wuzzy That's what many of these sandbox voxel games do wrong imo
04:05 dennisjenkins we take turns guarding each other while the other mines.
04:06 Wuzzy well, for starters, griefing
04:06 Wuzzy griefing is the direct result of this very basic multiplayer
04:06 dennisjenkins ah.  well, when he does that I get after him IRL.. :)
04:07 dennisjenkins In our one non-hades world that we all play in, I set up area protection around my daughter's palace and my factory thing.
04:07 dennisjenkins but our hades is a private serve, running in an LXC container on my LAN.
04:07 Wuzzy well for now, Hades Revisited is focusing on singleplayer gameplay right now. the multiplayer aspect is thus neglected while it still technically works
04:07 dennisjenkins sure
04:08 Wuzzy I think the problem with this ultra simplistic multiplayer (the same game, but just with more players) is that it creates many problems that the game itself doesnt really solve on its own
04:08 Wuzzy like griefing
04:08 Wuzzy most servers fix griefing with protection, obviously
04:09 dennisjenkins Sure.  For my own family, I try to use it to encourge my kids to cooperate on some task.
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04:09 Wuzzy Yeah as long as all players know each other, this simplistic multiplayer can actually work. but in an internet server, different story, lol
04:09 dennisjenkins but that probably is a non-starter for a public server.
04:09 Wuzzy exactly
04:09 dennisjenkins consider this: Can you randomize spawn points for all new players?
04:09 dennisjenkins the world is huge
04:09 dennisjenkins you disable flight, fast, teleport by default.
04:10 Wuzzy actually, i have considered exactly this
04:10 dennisjenkins so players would have to work hard to get near each other.
04:10 dennisjenkins My son wants to build a large train track across the map.
04:10 dennisjenkins He used up all of the iron that I needed to picks + shovels to build some tracks once.
04:11 dennisjenkins but to build a train (mine cart) to connect distant points, you need to flatten land, or create a large bridge.,
04:11 Wuzzy the thing is, the game these sandbox games function is that there is no real in-game reason that really discourages players to grief other people's bases
04:11 dennisjenkins but I don't see a use for minecarts in game.
04:11 Wuzzy minecart = fast travel
04:11 Wuzzy thats really the only feature, lol
04:11 Wuzzy yeah, need to think of better ways for fast travel in HR
04:12 dennisjenkins I was hoping that minecarts could work w/ automation to move ore + items around, w/out a player in them.
04:15 Wuzzy oooff actually getting multiple players to work together to terraform a planet is a big challenge. question is how to discourage griefing while encouraging coop
04:15 Wuzzy protection is the standard solution but it feels very artificial to me.
04:15 dennisjenkins create a "light-weight" force-field like object
04:15 dennisjenkins player crafts it.
04:15 Wuzzy lol that'd be just like protection, but renamed
04:16 dennisjenkins maybe it starts w/ ability to protect 20x20x20 area, but can be upgraded.
04:16 dennisjenkins Ok, let me go off the deep end here:
04:16 Wuzzy the big danger with protection is aggressive land-grabbing
04:17 Wuzzy one active player just grabs huge amounts of land, forcing new players to travel far and wide in order to place their first block
04:17 Wuzzy We see this problem in effect on JT2. New players constantly ask why they "can't build at all"
04:17 dennisjenkins Bronze needs tin + copper.  Place these far apart on the map, so that players need to get both, or trade, to build anything better than steel
04:18 dennisjenkins then restrict each player to one "area" of a relatively small size.
04:18 Wuzzy interesting ...
04:18 dennisjenkins large enough for the player to build their own fort/compound, but not large enough to squat on huge tracks of land.
04:18 Wuzzy hmmm limiting the amount of land you can protect?
04:19 dennisjenkins sure.  only way to protect is some special force-field item, that each player can only ever have 1 of.
04:20 Wuzzy hmm i think were getting too carried away here, haha
04:20 dennisjenkins maybe make it non-craftable and non-transferable.  problem with that though is that if player dies in lava pit, it stays with their bones.
04:22 Wuzzy i think a hard-cap on protection jut means you cant really do big builds then
04:22 Wuzzy which is totally against the terraforming/creative aspect
04:22 dennisjenkins ah
04:22 Wuzzy everything outside your land is fair game to everyone
04:23 Wuzzy i.e. griefing
04:23 Wuzzy hah. the landgrab problem can be fixed when combined with the random spawn idea
04:24 Wuzzy players spawn in random places in the map and they can try to find each other.
04:24 dennisjenkins maybe a game goal (single or multi-player) is that the player needs to travel to certain sites int he world to collect fragments of their space ship that broke up in the atmosphere.
04:24 dennisjenkins collect enough and $magic happens.
04:25 Wuzzy no no i dont want to add a game goal
04:25 Wuzzy maybe some big achievement/challenge but not not something that would be considered "ending" the game
04:25 dennisjenkins Ok.  But "raw survival" is not very hard.  Just need to find enough water to create dirt early game.  Once player has enough apple trees to support their consumption (~8 trees / person), they've "won".
04:26 dennisjenkins I did  not mean to 'end' the game.
04:26 dennisjenkins but to get some reward.
04:26 dennisjenkins like a powerful item.
04:26 Wuzzy i agree survival is easy once you get your apple tree farm running
04:26 dennisjenkins or achievement.
04:26 dennisjenkins Just consider that the game would be boring if farming was harder and player spent all of their time farming food.
04:27 Wuzzy saying you "won" after your first apple tree is absurd tho. there's still more content that you missed out on. even in this early version 😀
04:27 dennisjenkins imho, that's why automation is nice.
04:27 dennisjenkins you do it the hard way for a bit, then you can automate it.
04:27 Wuzzy adding more and more tools to the player as the player pgoressess is planned to be a major aspect of the game
04:27 dennisjenkins has anyone ever reported that they've dug down to -1000m to collect raw diamonds?
04:27 Wuzzy idk
04:28 Wuzzy but -1000 isnt hard.
04:28 Wuzzy it just takes more time
04:28 Wuzzy thats also a huge issue. getting deepr does not make mining any harder, or mor dangerous
04:28 Wuzzy it just takes more time
04:29 Wuzzy you could go all the way to -30000 if you really want. there's nothing stopping you
04:29 Wuzzy ok, the lava maybe, lol, but you figure that out fast
04:30 Wuzzy Yeah, I plan to add a lot of variety in the underground. not simple "more ores", but actual gameplay aspects. mining deeper must also mean more dangers. so you cant just grind all your way to the bottom.
04:31 Wuzzy this could start with more dangerous mobs, but also with more dangerous blocks (besides lava)
04:31 Wuzzy or simply increasing the hardness of stone so you need to make a better pickaxe first
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04:32 dennisjenkins OMG.  I installed the "nuke" mod on a different world.  My son started dropping "Chernobylim" (sp?) into my area (before I added protection).  He had no idea what it was.
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04:32 Wuzzy lol
04:33 Wuzzy /rollback
04:33 dennisjenkins So I had to explain what a "nuclear meltdown" was to him, and gave examples of TMI, Chernobyl and the recent one in Japan (I can't pronounse or spell it).
04:34 dennisjenkins I dislike fighting monsters in minetest.  In HR, that's why I dug an open-pit mine.  So I have day-light to dig in.  At night, I retreat to my tree-top fort to run the furnaces and harvest apples.
04:34 Wuzzy oh yes i can definitely see that farming apples for the 500th can get boring fast.
04:35 dennisjenkins I had an idea to use the vacuum pipeworks tubes to semi-auto-harvest apples.  Lay down pipes in grid, plant trees in offset grid, then periodically, use axe to cut down all trees.
04:35 dennisjenkins apples + leaves fall, get sucked into pipes, flow into sorter, then into chests.
04:36 dennisjenkins :)
04:36 dennisjenkins then just replant the saplings.
04:38 Wuzzy Yeah I think automation should be some kind of aspect in the game. to remove the grind.
04:38 Wuzzy but it will have to be earned
04:38 dennisjenkins imho, its ok to grind at the beginning.
04:38 Wuzzy there will still be manual farming at the beginning. its for the sense of progression
04:38 dennisjenkins yes
04:38 Wuzzy But if i add automation, i want to have it different than with current mods in Minetest
04:38 dennisjenkins what do you have in mind?
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04:39 Wuzzy I dont want HR to be just another random mod collecion
04:39 Wuzzy nothing specific right now
04:39 dennisjenkins Just individual nodes that do one task, or a kit where player can construct imaginatively?
04:39 Wuzzy not sure
04:39 Wuzzy i guess i need to experiment with multiple things, really. haha
04:40 dennisjenkins Do other players provide any feedback to you about their experiences w/ HR?
04:40 Wuzzy yes
04:40 Wuzzy in the forums
04:41 dennisjenkins Ah.  I gave up on the forums.  they are offline alot (seems like all the time).
04:41 Wuzzy this has been fixed
04:41 Wuzzy finally
04:42 Wuzzy it turned out there was apparently a bot army from China that for some reason tried to crawl forum.minetest.net with a ridiculous amount of request, bringing the server to its knees
04:43 Wuzzy but this has been fixed by simply banning those bots
04:43 dennisjenkins lame.  If they really wanted to index the forums, they should have used far fewer connections, w/ exponetial backoff + random delay on errors.
04:44 dennisjenkins ppl knew this since th 1970's.
04:44 Wuzzy well it was essentially a DDoS, even if no maliciou intent
04:45 Wuzzy celeront55 vehemently refuses to jump on CloudFlare or other ... things like that. And I agree. I hate CloudFlare.
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04:48 Wuzzy good bye. and thank you for your detailed thoughts and comments. it really means a lot to me. 🙂
04:48 dennisjenkins take care
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10:17 VanessaE dennisjenkins: if I remember right, I changed the license because some countries don't respect the notion of public domain, and I think because contentdb (the "mod store") had no such license
10:18 VanessaE as for whether or not you can drop-in replace the old-timey pipes-only version with the current code, I'm not sure.
10:18 VanessaE though do note that you can configure current pipeworks to omit all the tubes, iirc
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13:07 jas_ !title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6scWfR5Z9rc
13:07 MinetestBot jas_: New damaging leaves, some antifire, and more rocket jumping - YouTube
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13:14 rdococ is there a way to use a texture pack to apply a world-aligned texture to nodes that don't usually have them?
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14:17 H4mlet Hello
14:17 freelikegnu howdy
14:17 H4mlet good, you?
14:18 freelikegnu no complaints, cept a little dry skin
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14:28 freelikegnu I've been busy trying to give a little more depth to the goblins trying to learn some programming along the way
14:28 freelikegnu way out of my comfort zone
14:30 H4mlet it has been a long time since I've faced one of them, did you added new features?
14:31 freelikegnu they all have generated  goblin style names and their territories are named as well... when you give them stuff, what you get back is based on your relation to the goblins in that territory
14:32 freelikegnu if you give them enough stuff they will reveal their name and territory
14:32 H4mlet :) civilized folks
14:33 freelikegnu kinda, therses a good chance you get nothing back
14:33 H4mlet they're still goblins after all. :D
14:34 H4mlet I should check/correct/fix/restyle my mods, but I'm lacking the will. Procrastination.
14:35 freelikegnu aye... do you have a list of things you want to do?
14:35 freelikegnu I have a list and I like it because I get other things done to my mods just to avoid the list
14:37 H4mlet well, two things: improve the code style, and starting a new project an rpg backend
14:37 H4mlet afk, back in ~10
14:37 freelikegnu oh cool!
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14:51 H4mlet yes, basically the idea is that a player's character has some stats, e.g. strenght, dexterity, etc. that can be trained; no classes, just skills: depending on which skills one improves, you build your own class
14:53 H4mlet thus: nodes to develop skills (e.g. training dummy for swords), items that are more effective depending on your skill (e.g. swords deal more damage depending on strenght and dexterity); and finally a frontend to keep track of your charsheet, that is a formspec with stats.
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14:56 Lone_Wolf Hmmmm what did I walk into
14:56 Lone_Wolf Sounds like Voxel knights but instead of training nodes I have actual mobs
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14:59 H4mlet Ah, seems like I almost reinvented the wheel then
14:59 freelikegnu H4mlet: I really like that system of progression
14:59 freelikegnu it was in one of my favorite games: Dungeon Siege
15:01 H4mlet never played it, I was thinking about something like Morrowind/Rogue/Ultima Underworld
15:01 H4mlet but then again I guess it's all a variation of pen&paper rpgs :)
15:02 H4mlet The fact is, ok I have built my wonderful castle; what now?
15:02 H4mlet Or, on servers:
15:02 freelikegnu minetest could really use some good RPG elements
15:03 H4mlet You build an hose, a castle, whatever; after a while you think: what now?
15:03 H4mlet *house
15:03 H4mlet yes... thus the idea: character development
15:03 freelikegnu I like the idea of mine, build a settlement, find and recruit NPCs, give them jobs grown town etc
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15:04 H4mlet on servers it would be even better: actual players would form teams, some developing mining skils, some others fighting, others healers or magicians
15:05 H4mlet rock-paper-scissors
15:05 sfan5 sounds like you're designing an mmo...
15:05 freelikegnu your buildings give the npcs dwellings, you add the schematic to the npcs and send them out to create more towns
15:05 H4mlet less or more sfan5
15:07 freelikegnu its a challenge to make the grind of progression fun
15:07 H4mlet freelikegnu, on schematics and npcs AI I have zero experience; but, well, if people like the system, anything can/could be virtually added
15:07 H4mlet about progression, I have a couple ideas
15:08 freelikegnu I personnaly like grindy games tho
15:08 H4mlet that is, different styles of progression, and ...death.
15:08 H4mlet so you can have level 1 = 10 experience, level 2 = 20 exp, and so on
15:08 H4mlet or
15:09 H4mlet 10, 20, 30, 50, 80 - fibonacci's sequence
15:09 H4mlet or
15:09 H4mlet 10 100 1000 - squared
15:09 H4mlet depending on one's taste
15:09 H4mlet the death thing would be optional, designed to avoid poweplayers
15:09 H4mlet example:
15:10 H4mlet player A has been on a server for one year, its character is level 99999
15:10 H4mlet no need to say that anyone joining would be cannon fodder
15:10 H4mlet not that fun, no fair play.
15:11 H4mlet thus, characters might die in say, 3 months or 6 months; allowing other players not to be eternally "the lowest rank"
15:11 Jordach then why not scale player damage outside of PvE
15:11 H4mlet that also
15:12 H4mlet you are level 10, if you hit a lvl 1 you do zero damage or get some kind of jinx
15:12 H4mlet again, customizable
15:13 H4mlet so basically the idea is: once you have built your nice Castle Base/Starship/Whatever you can develop your character, team with other players, etc.
15:15 H4mlet Last thing: you got a steel sword, or a diamond sword - your dexterity is 0: you deal 0 damage. A weapon's material only determines its lasting, not its damage; e.g. dexterity 5, wooden sword = damage 5, dexterity 3 diamond sword = damage 3.
15:16 H4mlet the same goes for tools like pickaxes, axes, etc.
15:17 H4mlet ...how sad for the random player which digs 'till -1000 to get a diamond sword + full armor.
15:18 H4mlet Anyway, it's all just an idea in my mind, existing code = zero.
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15:54 Jordach Wuzzy, i've implemented UE4 style animation systems into my MT game
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15:55 Wuzzy pics or it didn't happen
15:55 Jordach https://gfycat.com/favoritecluelessichidna
15:55 Wuzzy oh.
15:55 Wuzzy heh
15:56 Wuzzy is this part of the model animation?
15:56 Jordach animation groups + state
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15:57 Wuzzy interesting. so no engine change needed? nice
15:57 Jordach requires a 30hz server_step mind you
15:57 Jordach something most VPS can't handle
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15:57 Jordach i'd go 60hz but even than my Ryzen 3600X would stuggle
15:59 Jordach i'm also not to be trusted when fiddling with weapon code
15:59 Jordach https://gfycat.com/limpingleafyarchaeocete
16:03 rubenwardy That's a bit of a knockback
16:04 Jordach 10000 rounds per minute with builtin knockback will do that
16:04 Jordach https://what-if.xkcd.com/21/
16:06 Ingar anxious to see the rocket jump :p
16:07 Jordach currently all weapons are handled as raycast types
16:07 Jordach i'm intending on adding one or two entity based
16:07 ANAND Jordach: That's awesome!
16:12 Jordach here's a test run in action
16:12 Jordach https://gfycat.com/hiddenmeatyjanenschia
16:13 Jordach wrong one, https://gfycat.com/plushinsistentlcont
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16:18 ANAND Sweet. Are you using set_eye_offset for the offsetted 3rd person camera?
16:19 Jordach yes
16:20 freelikegnu thasts awesome, Jordach
16:20 ANAND It looks great!
16:20 ANAND Btw are you registering the guns as nodes for mesh support?
16:20 Jordach yes
16:20 Jordach except i'm not using wield3d because entities are bad
16:21 Jordach it's actually part of the player mesh
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16:46 xachman What is the Bestiary in-game referenced on draconis https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=22595?
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19:41 MinetestBot [git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest: Damage texture modifier (#9833) 9ba24f8 https://git.io/JflXr (2020-05-11T19:41:36Z)
19:41 MinetestBot [git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest: Add support for statbar “off state” icons (#9462) 6e1372b https://git.io/JflXo (2020-05-11T19:40:45Z)
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21:14 MinetestBot [git] h4ml3t -> minetest/minetest_game: doors: Update Italian translation (#2670) 16c950f https://git.io/Jfl9s (2020-05-11T21:13:00Z)
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23:24 yaman Falling nodes can now be used to negate fall damage and climb up walls. Is this behavior expected with the new falling.lua? I recorded a video with [5.3.0-dev-454dbf83a-dirty (Linux)] to illustrate this: https://0x0.st/i_Uy.mp4
23:25 sfan5 expected but not desirable
23:25 sfan5 maybe I do have to fix this properly
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23:28 yaman In that case, I will submit an issue to document this
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23:56 jas_ nice
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