| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:16 |
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| 01:01 |
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| 01:18 |
dennisjenkins |
Is this the appropriate IRC channel to ask questions about the histoty of the pipeworks mod? |
| 01:23 |
rubenwardy |
sure |
| 01:23 |
rubenwardy |
VanessaE ^ |
| 01:24 |
dennisjenkins |
Wuzzy recently fixed up the Hades Revisited game so that it works on minetest v5.2.0. it contains a pipeworks mod that appears to be older (lacks sorting tubes), and is licensed under the WTFPL. |
| 01:24 |
dennisjenkins |
VanessaE's (iirc) is under the LGPL and is much more recent. |
| 01:24 |
dennisjenkins |
I am considering attempting to replace the older pipeworks in Hades w/ the newer one, but wanted to know why the license changed. |
| 01:25 |
dennisjenkins |
Complicating this is tht Wuzzy eliminated the "default" namespace, which I read in Ruben's book is a recommended practice. |
| 01:25 |
dennisjenkins |
And I'm new to Lua... |
| 01:25 |
dennisjenkins |
But I figured that I'd try. |
| 01:26 |
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| 01:45 |
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| 01:51 |
Lone_Wolf |
Need to pull an Edgar Poe and chop up default into smaller mods that default depends upon |
| 01:51 |
* Lone_Wolf |
runs |
| 02:16 |
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| 02:29 |
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| 02:29 |
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| 02:46 |
dennisjenkins |
Is there an in-game command to list all node types defined in a mod, or in a mod's namespace? |
| 02:56 |
Wuzzy |
no |
| 02:58 |
dennisjenkins |
Hello Wuzzy. |
| 02:59 |
dennisjenkins |
I am currently trying to hack up Vanessa's latest pipeworks to work in Hades. I am unsure what to do with most of the code that references "default." |
| 03:05 |
dennisjenkins |
For example, in "pipeworks/trashcan.lua", the formspec references "default.gui_bg" and 3 other items in 'defualt'. I've looked at the formspecs in hades_furnace and hades_chest, and cannot find an analog, or I don't know what I'm looking at. |
| 03:08 |
dennisjenkins |
"gui_slots" (from default.gui_slots) only appears in pipeworks. Grepping for "gui_slots" (in some other namespace) in all hades mods finds nothing. |
| 03:13 |
luk3yx |
dennisjenkins: default.gui_bg, default.gui_bg_img, and default.gui_slots can probably be empty strings (https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/default/legacy.lua). |
| 03:13 |
dennisjenkins |
ah, I should have checked what they resolve to. ty for the pointer. |
| 03:14 |
dennisjenkins |
I'm new to minetest and new to lua, but have years of C/C++/asm/Unix experience; so I'm just kinda jumping in. |
| 03:16 |
dennisjenkins |
I should try just loading the 'default' mod into the Hades game (as a temp measure). I know that wuzzy purposefully removed it (and based on my reading of Ruben's book, this was correct). |
| 03:20 |
Wuzzy |
dennisjenkins: I have put in the background image on a per-node / per-task basis |
| 03:20 |
Wuzzy |
furnace has its own background image, crafting inventory has its own, etc. |
| 03:21 |
Wuzzy |
so there is no default.gui_bg_img for obvious reasons |
| 03:21 |
Wuzzy |
And yes, I have changed the pipeworks mod to replace all the default references with the new references |
| 03:22 |
Wuzzy |
but I'm not too happy with mesecons and pipeworks being in hades in the first place. imo this stuff doesnt fit in the game, about what i want to achieve |
| 03:22 |
dennisjenkins |
What do I do with "default.get_hotbar_bg()" ? |
| 03:22 |
Wuzzy |
nothing? |
| 03:22 |
Wuzzy |
context? |
| 03:22 |
dennisjenkins |
ok, that's fair. However, I would like to get them to work together. |
| 03:23 |
Wuzzy |
yeah sadly you have to modify pipeworks to make it compatible again |
| 03:23 |
Wuzzy |
its a shame that pipeworks hard-depends on default, which is very very bad |
| 03:24 |
Wuzzy |
why does pipeworks need the hotbar_bg in the first place? |
| 03:24 |
dennisjenkins |
the pipeworks.trashcan calls "default.get_hotbar_bg(args)" in the formspec. Grepping around in other mods, I see that 'minetest_game/bones/init.lua" also calls that. So I'm comparing hades's bones w/ minetest_game's bones, and I don't see what to replace it with. |
| 03:24 |
dennisjenkins |
I have no idea what it is |
| 03:24 |
dennisjenkins |
IDK if I need it. |
| 03:24 |
dennisjenkins |
IIUC, the formspec is just a way to tell the GUI how to draw a form in the UI. |
| 03:25 |
dennisjenkins |
but IDK what needs to be preserved and what does not matter. |
| 03:25 |
dennisjenkins |
I default (bad pun) to assuming that it all matters. |
| 03:25 |
Wuzzy |
oh i remember now. this is just for a special slot color/design for the hotbar slots in inventory |
| 03:25 |
Wuzzy |
you can safely skip it |
| 03:26 |
Wuzzy |
there's no special hotbar design in Hades Revisited, so it can be removed |
| 03:27 |
dennisjenkins |
ok, ty |
| 03:27 |
dennisjenkins |
so, I how have a pipeworks that loads w/out crashing, but I had to comment out everything except for the trashcan. |
| 03:28 |
Wuzzy |
lol |
| 03:28 |
dennisjenkins |
right-clicking on the trashcan in hades does nothing, and in minetest_game, it shows the form. |
| 03:28 |
dennisjenkins |
one step at a time... |
| 03:28 |
Wuzzy |
the trashcan is in trash_can mod ... |
| 03:28 |
Wuzzy |
so you have to remove it from your pipeworks fork |
| 03:29 |
Wuzzy |
its likely i just nuke pipeworks in the game... |
| 03:29 |
dennisjenkins |
My son and I spent weeks terraforming a hades world, got down the the mese, and some flying demon thing. Also spent weeks playing in minetest_game w/ pipeworks, technic, mesecons. We want to do the automation stuff in hades. :) |
| 03:29 |
dennisjenkins |
the pipeworks trashcan can receive a pipe and trashed what is sent it. |
| 03:30 |
dennisjenkins |
does the hades_trashcan do that/ |
| 03:30 |
dennisjenkins |
? |
| 03:30 |
Wuzzy |
no idea |
| 03:30 |
Wuzzy |
but probably not |
| 03:30 |
Wuzzy |
given that its using an ancient pipeworks version |
| 03:30 |
dennisjenkins |
If you remove pipeworks from hades, then how will the player move/create water sources? |
| 03:30 |
Wuzzy |
it will be impossible ? |
| 03:31 |
Wuzzy |
i need to think of a different way, obviously |
| 03:31 |
Wuzzy |
i think the current way of moving water sources is just clunky |
| 03:31 |
Wuzzy |
i mean, you can move solid blocks pretty much instantly, while moving a single liquid requires tons of iron |
| 03:31 |
dennisjenkins |
I'd like to ask you to consider updating, but disabling by default, pipeworks and mesecons. Players that want it can manually enabled them. |
| 03:32 |
dennisjenkins |
I've been disabling volcanos / lava flows by just dropping tons of ash into them. |
| 03:32 |
dennisjenkins |
but to convert a lava lake into a water lake requires getting flowing water (up sometimes) to contact the lava source. |
| 03:32 |
Wuzzy |
it seems pointless to put much work in a major gameplay mechanic only to disable it... |
| 03:33 |
Wuzzy |
if players want to frequently disable te gameplay mechanic, then i have failed as a game designer lol |
| 03:33 |
dennisjenkins |
fair. |
| 03:33 |
Wuzzy |
about automation: fair point |
| 03:33 |
dennisjenkins |
but since the game is open-ended, and we (my son and I) have gotten bored. We've essentially "beat" the game. |
| 03:34 |
dennisjenkins |
and want to have fun now. |
| 03:34 |
Wuzzy |
but its also kind of OP |
| 03:34 |
Wuzzy |
hehe yes i get what you mean with "beaten" the game |
| 03:34 |
Wuzzy |
you have explored all that is to explore. there is nothing more to do. |
| 03:34 |
Wuzzy |
yes this is always a big challenge with sandbox games. making sure players dont burn through the content too quickly |
| 03:35 |
Wuzzy |
or having just too little content to begin with |
| 03:35 |
Wuzzy |
so adding more interesting/fun things to do in the game is also something important. |
| 03:35 |
dennisjenkins |
http://www.ecoligames.com/~djenkins/Games/minetest/hades-0.4.3-terraformed.png |
| 03:36 |
dennisjenkins |
its slow to start, using stone tools until you get deep enough that iron becomes plentiful enough to make steel tools. |
| 03:36 |
Wuzzy |
I can absolutely understand that you get bored. you simply ran out of content. thats why. |
| 03:36 |
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| 03:36 |
dennisjenkins |
after you harvest iron faster than you consume it, the game is much easier / faster. |
| 03:37 |
Wuzzy |
the progression needs a major rebalance, i agree |
| 03:37 |
dennisjenkins |
the weird grey rectangle in the lower right is our ~300m open pit mine. |
| 03:37 |
dennisjenkins |
Anyway, currently I need to figure out why the ported pipeworks trashcan ignores right-click. |
| 03:38 |
Wuzzy |
Automation is a very interesting point you bring up. yes its obviously useful in gameplay. i am not sure if thats the direction i want to go with HR... |
| 03:38 |
Wuzzy |
i mean, mesecons and pipeworks have been done to DEATH in Minetest already. |
| 03:39 |
Wuzzy |
and it takes quite some time to actually figure out mesecons builds to actually automate some things |
| 03:39 |
dennisjenkins |
I'd be fine w/ just pipeworks. |
| 03:39 |
Wuzzy |
but i dont want HR to be a game about building machinery at all |
| 03:39 |
dennisjenkins |
in hades |
| 03:39 |
Wuzzy |
Well. |
| 03:40 |
dennisjenkins |
I understand. But I'd like to be able to get it to work anyway, even if you don't add it to your repo. |
| 03:40 |
Wuzzy |
I think having *some* automation might still be an aspect in the game |
| 03:40 |
dennisjenkins |
http://www.ecoligames.com/~djenkins/Games/minetest/mineral-processing-facility.png |
| 03:40 |
dennisjenkins |
that is in my non-hades world. |
| 03:40 |
Wuzzy |
hehe. i see. |
| 03:41 |
Wuzzy |
srsly, technic is almost a new game in its own right |
| 03:41 |
dennisjenkins |
lots of 'detector tubes" lighting up the lightstones. but not needed in hades. |
| 03:41 |
Wuzzy |
but i dont just want to copy over mods that have been done to death. i want to make something new |
| 03:41 |
dennisjenkins |
I just really want two things working in hades: sorting tubes and furances that auto-ignite when coal + burnables are in them. |
| 03:42 |
dennisjenkins |
the current pipeworks + hades_furances are somehow broken. |
| 03:42 |
Wuzzy |
another possibility is that I just come up with a different concept of pipeworks. one that isnt massively overcomplex |
| 03:42 |
dennisjenkins |
feeding coal into bottom of furnace, and ore into side, furance does not auto-ignore. |
| 03:42 |
dennisjenkins |
ignite |
| 03:42 |
dennisjenkins |
if I right click on furance, remove either fuel or item, then add it back, it fires up. |
| 03:42 |
Wuzzy |
Hmmm yeah i really need to think about how to automate things. and to what extent |
| 03:42 |
Wuzzy |
yes yes i totally get the bug report |
| 03:43 |
Wuzzy |
but i dont care about fixing it because i dont really like pipeworks haha |
| 03:43 |
dennisjenkins |
Ah, i wasn't sure if you saw my email, but I didn't want to badger you about it. |
| 03:43 |
Wuzzy |
as pipeworks might be nuked |
| 03:43 |
Wuzzy |
I guess what i need to do is to experiment with different concepts and stuff |
| 03:44 |
Wuzzy |
Just to have something unique and refreshing. not beating dead horses over and over again |
| 03:44 |
Wuzzy |
I get why automation is desirable tho |
| 03:44 |
dennisjenkins |
Another option is to extract the map-gen from hades, and get that to work in a minetest_game, which has the 'default' mod, and pipeworks "just works". |
| 03:45 |
Wuzzy |
automation makes boring/grindy tasks easy as pie. automation does not neccessarily need pipeworks for that. there are a billion of other ways to implement an automation system i guess lol |
| 03:46 |
dennisjenkins |
We (my son and I) wanted to rig up tubes to drop off picks and apples into bottom of our mining pit, and have a chest + filter at bottom that we drop our ore off into. |
| 03:46 |
Wuzzy |
btw i'm glad you still have fun with the game even in this very experimental stage ? |
| 03:46 |
dennisjenkins |
At 300m down, its a long ass haul to get up and down to get new supplies and drop off ore. |
| 03:47 |
Wuzzy |
there are elevators tho |
| 03:47 |
dennisjenkins |
The ore would go up, get sorted, coal + ore would smelt the ore into ingots, autocraft to picks, drop thse back down. |
| 03:47 |
Wuzzy |
more like glorified teleporters actually |
| 03:47 |
dennisjenkins |
also make red bricks from clay. |
| 03:47 |
dennisjenkins |
yes |
| 03:47 |
dennisjenkins |
thought about using those. |
| 03:48 |
Wuzzy |
hmmm meh. ok even if i keep pipework it definitely needs an update. or a redo. current version is bad. |
| 03:48 |
dennisjenkins |
If the vacuum pipes work, we plan to lay them across the bottom of a forest, then clear-cut it from time to time, and automate the harvesting of apples, leaves (-> plastic -> pipes), and tree trunks (needed to make wood for pick handles). |
| 03:48 |
dennisjenkins |
I started on trying to port over the current pipeworks, but you would likely be able to knock it out in a few hours. |
| 03:49 |
Wuzzy |
maybe, maybe not |
| 03:49 |
Wuzzy |
It took me almost a week just to cleanup the default mess lol |
| 03:49 |
Wuzzy |
I had to touch a huge amount of code |
| 03:50 |
Wuzzy |
default had its ugly, filthy tentacles spread absolutely everywhere, which is why it took so long |
| 03:51 |
Wuzzy |
but it was absolutely worth it. tightly coupled code is not fun |
| 03:51 |
dennisjenkins |
:) Yup. I've done my fair share of refactoring other's long dead code too. Minetest/lue are just new framework to code it for me. |
| 03:51 |
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| 03:51 |
dennisjenkins |
ISTm that pipeworks itself should be able to decouple from default, except for the crafting recipes. |
| 03:51 |
Wuzzy |
and yes, rubenwardy is 100% right for advicing to never ever add a default mod in new games |
| 03:52 |
Wuzzy |
technically, the crafting recipes arent even a dependency |
| 03:52 |
dennisjenkins |
then ppl could add it into any game that they wanted with minimal effort. |
| 03:52 |
Wuzzy |
you can add crafting recipes for everything, really theres 0 checking on whether the mods exist |
| 03:52 |
dennisjenkins |
I suppose. You can have game mechanics and just omit ability to craft the thing. |
| 03:52 |
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| 03:53 |
Wuzzy |
but it will get ugly as soon you have crafting guides, which happily show invalid recipes |
| 03:53 |
Wuzzy |
my usualy response is to just make a mod check and declare it as optional dependency |
| 03:53 |
Wuzzy |
although i doubt that even that optional depenceny is stricly required |
| 03:54 |
Wuzzy |
whats your latest project in your world? |
| 03:54 |
Wuzzy |
have any nice builds so far? |
| 03:54 |
Wuzzy |
or is it just about aquiring a lot of resources? ? |
| 03:55 |
dennisjenkins |
Many projects that we swap back and forth on. One was clearing a huge lava field into a water lake, planting lots of fertile sand (100 x 100, so LOTS), then growing more trees. |
| 03:56 |
dennisjenkins |
but we already have more than enough apples per harvest for 3 players (myself, my son and my daughter). |
| 03:56 |
dennisjenkins |
digging the pit down to get gold at -300m. IIRC, we're at -280 or so. |
| 03:56 |
dennisjenkins |
My son build some sort of house. I didn't bother. |
| 03:57 |
dennisjenkins |
We actually have 3 hades worlds. One is purely for testing things and has enemies disabled. |
| 03:57 |
dennisjenkins |
Another strangely has very few mountains, is mostly +4/-4 pillars of stone. |
| 03:57 |
dennisjenkins |
so I cleared a huge flat area and we're going to built pits to trap the spiders in, to get their silk. |
| 03:57 |
dennisjenkins |
we build long glass bridges over everything, so we can walk around at night, safe from the enmies. |
| 03:58 |
dennisjenkins |
they don't spawn on tree tops or glass. |
| 03:58 |
AidanLCB_ |
if I never play on single player is there any point to installing minetest_game |
| 03:58 |
Wuzzy |
no, unless you plan to start a Minetest Game server |
| 03:59 |
Wuzzy |
I'm surprised you don't already have Minetest Game installed. I thought it comes always pre-installed |
| 03:59 |
AidanLCB_ |
i always compile from source as i use linux |
| 03:59 |
dennisjenkins |
Wuzzy, if it helps you refine HR, my son is also playing a singleplayer game that has lots of missions in it. He has like a checklist of things to do. (like dig 1000 blocks). This might be your tutorial world, idk. |
| 03:59 |
dennisjenkins |
he likes the checklist. |
| 04:00 |
Wuzzy |
ah something like achievements, i see ? |
| 04:00 |
dennisjenkins |
so maybe "winning" HR is also about obtaining some accomplishments, and the big one is building a rocket to get home, or building a radio transmitter to call home. |
| 04:00 |
dennisjenkins |
OMG... like the Atari 2600 "ET" game..... |
| 04:01 |
dennisjenkins |
As it is, it seems that the end of the game is to acquire the Staff of Gaia. |
| 04:01 |
Wuzzy |
No. The game is open-ended, so there will be no ending to the game |
| 04:01 |
Wuzzy |
heh right. its like the most expensive item right now |
| 04:01 |
dennisjenkins |
but once you get to about -150m, emeralds are plentiful enough that you can just craft the diamonds and other gems from left over emerlads. |
| 04:01 |
Wuzzy |
yes yes. this gem conversion is really odd |
| 04:01 |
dennisjenkins |
just dig a 16x16 pit, straight down. |
| 04:02 |
dennisjenkins |
you need ~4.2 stone picks per layer |
| 04:02 |
dennisjenkins |
~2 steel picks per layer |
| 04:02 |
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| 04:02 |
Wuzzy |
note that i did not originally create this game. i just picked it up |
| 04:02 |
dennisjenkins |
assuming no obsticals. |
| 04:02 |
dennisjenkins |
yes |
| 04:02 |
Wuzzy |
and I still carry over a lot of mechanics from the original |
| 04:02 |
Wuzzy |
but I think a lot of mechanics need closer examinaiton, and a redo |
| 04:03 |
dennisjenkins |
The game's text intro is "your ship crashed, your crew mates are now mutants, you're stuck here. survive". |
| 04:03 |
dennisjenkins |
For me, I don't see a point in creating a house w/ homedecor like junk in it. |
| 04:03 |
Wuzzy |
yeh, thats something more or less bound to change |
| 04:03 |
dennisjenkins |
at some point, terraforming the place is not practical for 1-3 players. |
| 04:04 |
dennisjenkins |
without gaining powerups along the way. |
| 04:04 |
Wuzzy |
oh boy. i havend even started to think about multiplayer right now |
| 04:04 |
dennisjenkins |
pipeworks might be boring to others, but I only discovered this game recently, and they are fun for us to play with, and I hope to port the latest version to work. |
| 04:05 |
dennisjenkins |
yeah, my kids and I play in the same world. |
| 04:05 |
dennisjenkins |
My daughter wants to build cute houses and eat all of our apples (so I have to hide spares in a chest underground). |
| 04:05 |
dennisjenkins |
but she's 5. |
| 04:05 |
dennisjenkins |
My son and I are trying to 'conquer' the land. |
| 04:05 |
Wuzzy |
yeah, i def. need to figure out a more natural way to make multiplayer work. definitely not just like singleplayer with with more players throwin into the same world |
| 04:05 |
dennisjenkins |
why not? |
| 04:05 |
Wuzzy |
That's what many of these sandbox voxel games do wrong imo |
| 04:05 |
dennisjenkins |
we take turns guarding each other while the other mines. |
| 04:06 |
Wuzzy |
well, for starters, griefing |
| 04:06 |
Wuzzy |
griefing is the direct result of this very basic multiplayer |
| 04:06 |
dennisjenkins |
ah. well, when he does that I get after him IRL.. :) |
| 04:07 |
dennisjenkins |
In our one non-hades world that we all play in, I set up area protection around my daughter's palace and my factory thing. |
| 04:07 |
dennisjenkins |
but our hades is a private serve, running in an LXC container on my LAN. |
| 04:07 |
Wuzzy |
well for now, Hades Revisited is focusing on singleplayer gameplay right now. the multiplayer aspect is thus neglected while it still technically works |
| 04:07 |
dennisjenkins |
sure |
| 04:08 |
Wuzzy |
I think the problem with this ultra simplistic multiplayer (the same game, but just with more players) is that it creates many problems that the game itself doesnt really solve on its own |
| 04:08 |
Wuzzy |
like griefing |
| 04:08 |
Wuzzy |
most servers fix griefing with protection, obviously |
| 04:09 |
dennisjenkins |
Sure. For my own family, I try to use it to encourge my kids to cooperate on some task. |
| 04:09 |
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| 04:09 |
Wuzzy |
Yeah as long as all players know each other, this simplistic multiplayer can actually work. but in an internet server, different story, lol |
| 04:09 |
dennisjenkins |
but that probably is a non-starter for a public server. |
| 04:09 |
Wuzzy |
exactly |
| 04:09 |
dennisjenkins |
consider this: Can you randomize spawn points for all new players? |
| 04:09 |
dennisjenkins |
the world is huge |
| 04:09 |
dennisjenkins |
you disable flight, fast, teleport by default. |
| 04:10 |
Wuzzy |
actually, i have considered exactly this |
| 04:10 |
dennisjenkins |
so players would have to work hard to get near each other. |
| 04:10 |
dennisjenkins |
My son wants to build a large train track across the map. |
| 04:10 |
dennisjenkins |
He used up all of the iron that I needed to picks + shovels to build some tracks once. |
| 04:11 |
dennisjenkins |
but to build a train (mine cart) to connect distant points, you need to flatten land, or create a large bridge., |
| 04:11 |
Wuzzy |
the thing is, the game these sandbox games function is that there is no real in-game reason that really discourages players to grief other people's bases |
| 04:11 |
dennisjenkins |
but I don't see a use for minecarts in game. |
| 04:11 |
Wuzzy |
minecart = fast travel |
| 04:11 |
Wuzzy |
thats really the only feature, lol |
| 04:11 |
Wuzzy |
yeah, need to think of better ways for fast travel in HR |
| 04:12 |
dennisjenkins |
I was hoping that minecarts could work w/ automation to move ore + items around, w/out a player in them. |
| 04:15 |
Wuzzy |
oooff actually getting multiple players to work together to terraform a planet is a big challenge. question is how to discourage griefing while encouraging coop |
| 04:15 |
Wuzzy |
protection is the standard solution but it feels very artificial to me. |
| 04:15 |
dennisjenkins |
create a "light-weight" force-field like object |
| 04:15 |
dennisjenkins |
player crafts it. |
| 04:15 |
Wuzzy |
lol that'd be just like protection, but renamed |
| 04:16 |
dennisjenkins |
maybe it starts w/ ability to protect 20x20x20 area, but can be upgraded. |
| 04:16 |
dennisjenkins |
Ok, let me go off the deep end here: |
| 04:16 |
Wuzzy |
the big danger with protection is aggressive land-grabbing |
| 04:17 |
Wuzzy |
one active player just grabs huge amounts of land, forcing new players to travel far and wide in order to place their first block |
| 04:17 |
Wuzzy |
We see this problem in effect on JT2. New players constantly ask why they "can't build at all" |
| 04:17 |
dennisjenkins |
Bronze needs tin + copper. Place these far apart on the map, so that players need to get both, or trade, to build anything better than steel |
| 04:18 |
dennisjenkins |
then restrict each player to one "area" of a relatively small size. |
| 04:18 |
Wuzzy |
interesting ... |
| 04:18 |
dennisjenkins |
large enough for the player to build their own fort/compound, but not large enough to squat on huge tracks of land. |
| 04:18 |
Wuzzy |
hmmm limiting the amount of land you can protect? |
| 04:19 |
dennisjenkins |
sure. only way to protect is some special force-field item, that each player can only ever have 1 of. |
| 04:20 |
Wuzzy |
hmm i think were getting too carried away here, haha |
| 04:20 |
dennisjenkins |
maybe make it non-craftable and non-transferable. problem with that though is that if player dies in lava pit, it stays with their bones. |
| 04:22 |
Wuzzy |
i think a hard-cap on protection jut means you cant really do big builds then |
| 04:22 |
Wuzzy |
which is totally against the terraforming/creative aspect |
| 04:22 |
dennisjenkins |
ah |
| 04:22 |
Wuzzy |
everything outside your land is fair game to everyone |
| 04:23 |
Wuzzy |
i.e. griefing |
| 04:23 |
Wuzzy |
hah. the landgrab problem can be fixed when combined with the random spawn idea |
| 04:24 |
Wuzzy |
players spawn in random places in the map and they can try to find each other. |
| 04:24 |
dennisjenkins |
maybe a game goal (single or multi-player) is that the player needs to travel to certain sites int he world to collect fragments of their space ship that broke up in the atmosphere. |
| 04:24 |
dennisjenkins |
collect enough and $magic happens. |
| 04:25 |
Wuzzy |
no no i dont want to add a game goal |
| 04:25 |
Wuzzy |
maybe some big achievement/challenge but not not something that would be considered "ending" the game |
| 04:25 |
dennisjenkins |
Ok. But "raw survival" is not very hard. Just need to find enough water to create dirt early game. Once player has enough apple trees to support their consumption (~8 trees / person), they've "won". |
| 04:26 |
dennisjenkins |
I did not mean to 'end' the game. |
| 04:26 |
dennisjenkins |
but to get some reward. |
| 04:26 |
dennisjenkins |
like a powerful item. |
| 04:26 |
Wuzzy |
i agree survival is easy once you get your apple tree farm running |
| 04:26 |
dennisjenkins |
or achievement. |
| 04:26 |
dennisjenkins |
Just consider that the game would be boring if farming was harder and player spent all of their time farming food. |
| 04:27 |
Wuzzy |
saying you "won" after your first apple tree is absurd tho. there's still more content that you missed out on. even in this early version ? |
| 04:27 |
dennisjenkins |
imho, that's why automation is nice. |
| 04:27 |
dennisjenkins |
you do it the hard way for a bit, then you can automate it. |
| 04:27 |
Wuzzy |
adding more and more tools to the player as the player pgoressess is planned to be a major aspect of the game |
| 04:27 |
dennisjenkins |
has anyone ever reported that they've dug down to -1000m to collect raw diamonds? |
| 04:27 |
Wuzzy |
idk |
| 04:28 |
Wuzzy |
but -1000 isnt hard. |
| 04:28 |
Wuzzy |
it just takes more time |
| 04:28 |
Wuzzy |
thats also a huge issue. getting deepr does not make mining any harder, or mor dangerous |
| 04:28 |
Wuzzy |
it just takes more time |
| 04:29 |
Wuzzy |
you could go all the way to -30000 if you really want. there's nothing stopping you |
| 04:29 |
Wuzzy |
ok, the lava maybe, lol, but you figure that out fast |
| 04:30 |
Wuzzy |
Yeah, I plan to add a lot of variety in the underground. not simple "more ores", but actual gameplay aspects. mining deeper must also mean more dangers. so you cant just grind all your way to the bottom. |
| 04:31 |
Wuzzy |
this could start with more dangerous mobs, but also with more dangerous blocks (besides lava) |
| 04:31 |
Wuzzy |
or simply increasing the hardness of stone so you need to make a better pickaxe first |
| 04:31 |
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| 04:32 |
dennisjenkins |
OMG. I installed the "nuke" mod on a different world. My son started dropping "Chernobylim" (sp?) into my area (before I added protection). He had no idea what it was. |
| 04:32 |
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| 04:32 |
Wuzzy |
lol |
| 04:33 |
Wuzzy |
/rollback |
| 04:33 |
dennisjenkins |
So I had to explain what a "nuclear meltdown" was to him, and gave examples of TMI, Chernobyl and the recent one in Japan (I can't pronounse or spell it). |
| 04:34 |
dennisjenkins |
I dislike fighting monsters in minetest. In HR, that's why I dug an open-pit mine. So I have day-light to dig in. At night, I retreat to my tree-top fort to run the furnaces and harvest apples. |
| 04:34 |
Wuzzy |
oh yes i can definitely see that farming apples for the 500th can get boring fast. |
| 04:35 |
dennisjenkins |
I had an idea to use the vacuum pipeworks tubes to semi-auto-harvest apples. Lay down pipes in grid, plant trees in offset grid, then periodically, use axe to cut down all trees. |
| 04:35 |
dennisjenkins |
apples + leaves fall, get sucked into pipes, flow into sorter, then into chests. |
| 04:36 |
dennisjenkins |
:) |
| 04:36 |
dennisjenkins |
then just replant the saplings. |
| 04:38 |
Wuzzy |
Yeah I think automation should be some kind of aspect in the game. to remove the grind. |
| 04:38 |
Wuzzy |
but it will have to be earned |
| 04:38 |
dennisjenkins |
imho, its ok to grind at the beginning. |
| 04:38 |
Wuzzy |
there will still be manual farming at the beginning. its for the sense of progression |
| 04:38 |
dennisjenkins |
yes |
| 04:38 |
Wuzzy |
But if i add automation, i want to have it different than with current mods in Minetest |
| 04:38 |
dennisjenkins |
what do you have in mind? |
| 04:38 |
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| 04:39 |
Wuzzy |
I dont want HR to be just another random mod collecion |
| 04:39 |
Wuzzy |
nothing specific right now |
| 04:39 |
dennisjenkins |
Just individual nodes that do one task, or a kit where player can construct imaginatively? |
| 04:39 |
Wuzzy |
not sure |
| 04:39 |
Wuzzy |
i guess i need to experiment with multiple things, really. haha |
| 04:40 |
dennisjenkins |
Do other players provide any feedback to you about their experiences w/ HR? |
| 04:40 |
Wuzzy |
yes |
| 04:40 |
Wuzzy |
in the forums |
| 04:41 |
dennisjenkins |
Ah. I gave up on the forums. they are offline alot (seems like all the time). |
| 04:41 |
Wuzzy |
this has been fixed |
| 04:41 |
Wuzzy |
finally |
| 04:42 |
Wuzzy |
it turned out there was apparently a bot army from China that for some reason tried to crawl forum.minetest.net with a ridiculous amount of request, bringing the server to its knees |
| 04:43 |
Wuzzy |
but this has been fixed by simply banning those bots |
| 04:43 |
dennisjenkins |
lame. If they really wanted to index the forums, they should have used far fewer connections, w/ exponetial backoff + random delay on errors. |
| 04:44 |
dennisjenkins |
ppl knew this since th 1970's. |
| 04:44 |
Wuzzy |
well it was essentially a DDoS, even if no maliciou intent |
| 04:45 |
Wuzzy |
celeront55 vehemently refuses to jump on CloudFlare or other ... things like that. And I agree. I hate CloudFlare. |
| 04:45 |
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| 04:48 |
Wuzzy |
good bye. and thank you for your detailed thoughts and comments. it really means a lot to me. ? |
| 04:48 |
dennisjenkins |
take care |
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| 10:17 |
VanessaE |
dennisjenkins: if I remember right, I changed the license because some countries don't respect the notion of public domain, and I think because contentdb (the "mod store") had no such license |
| 10:18 |
VanessaE |
as for whether or not you can drop-in replace the old-timey pipes-only version with the current code, I'm not sure. |
| 10:18 |
VanessaE |
though do note that you can configure current pipeworks to omit all the tubes, iirc |
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| 13:07 |
jas_ |
!title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6scWfR5Z9rc |
| 13:07 |
MinetestBot |
jas_: New damaging leaves, some antifire, and more rocket jumping - YouTube |
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rdococ |
is there a way to use a texture pack to apply a world-aligned texture to nodes that don't usually have them? |
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| 14:17 |
H4mlet |
Hello |
| 14:17 |
freelikegnu |
howdy |
| 14:17 |
H4mlet |
good, you? |
| 14:18 |
freelikegnu |
no complaints, cept a little dry skin |
| 14:27 |
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| 14:28 |
freelikegnu |
I've been busy trying to give a little more depth to the goblins trying to learn some programming along the way |
| 14:28 |
freelikegnu |
way out of my comfort zone |
| 14:30 |
H4mlet |
it has been a long time since I've faced one of them, did you added new features? |
| 14:31 |
freelikegnu |
they all have generated goblin style names and their territories are named as well... when you give them stuff, what you get back is based on your relation to the goblins in that territory |
| 14:32 |
freelikegnu |
if you give them enough stuff they will reveal their name and territory |
| 14:32 |
H4mlet |
:) civilized folks |
| 14:33 |
freelikegnu |
kinda, therses a good chance you get nothing back |
| 14:33 |
H4mlet |
they're still goblins after all. :D |
| 14:34 |
H4mlet |
I should check/correct/fix/restyle my mods, but I'm lacking the will. Procrastination. |
| 14:35 |
freelikegnu |
aye... do you have a list of things you want to do? |
| 14:35 |
freelikegnu |
I have a list and I like it because I get other things done to my mods just to avoid the list |
| 14:37 |
H4mlet |
well, two things: improve the code style, and starting a new project an rpg backend |
| 14:37 |
H4mlet |
afk, back in ~10 |
| 14:37 |
freelikegnu |
oh cool! |
| 14:37 |
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| 14:51 |
H4mlet |
yes, basically the idea is that a player's character has some stats, e.g. strenght, dexterity, etc. that can be trained; no classes, just skills: depending on which skills one improves, you build your own class |
| 14:53 |
H4mlet |
thus: nodes to develop skills (e.g. training dummy for swords), items that are more effective depending on your skill (e.g. swords deal more damage depending on strenght and dexterity); and finally a frontend to keep track of your charsheet, that is a formspec with stats. |
| 14:53 |
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| 14:56 |
Lone_Wolf |
Hmmmm what did I walk into |
| 14:56 |
Lone_Wolf |
Sounds like Voxel knights but instead of training nodes I have actual mobs |
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| 14:59 |
H4mlet |
Ah, seems like I almost reinvented the wheel then |
| 14:59 |
freelikegnu |
H4mlet: I really like that system of progression |
| 14:59 |
freelikegnu |
it was in one of my favorite games: Dungeon Siege |
| 15:01 |
H4mlet |
never played it, I was thinking about something like Morrowind/Rogue/Ultima Underworld |
| 15:01 |
H4mlet |
but then again I guess it's all a variation of pen&paper rpgs :) |
| 15:02 |
H4mlet |
The fact is, ok I have built my wonderful castle; what now? |
| 15:02 |
H4mlet |
Or, on servers: |
| 15:02 |
freelikegnu |
minetest could really use some good RPG elements |
| 15:03 |
H4mlet |
You build an hose, a castle, whatever; after a while you think: what now? |
| 15:03 |
H4mlet |
*house |
| 15:03 |
H4mlet |
yes... thus the idea: character development |
| 15:03 |
freelikegnu |
I like the idea of mine, build a settlement, find and recruit NPCs, give them jobs grown town etc |
| 15:04 |
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| 15:04 |
H4mlet |
on servers it would be even better: actual players would form teams, some developing mining skils, some others fighting, others healers or magicians |
| 15:05 |
H4mlet |
rock-paper-scissors |
| 15:05 |
sfan5 |
sounds like you're designing an mmo... |
| 15:05 |
freelikegnu |
your buildings give the npcs dwellings, you add the schematic to the npcs and send them out to create more towns |
| 15:05 |
H4mlet |
less or more sfan5 |
| 15:07 |
freelikegnu |
its a challenge to make the grind of progression fun |
| 15:07 |
H4mlet |
freelikegnu, on schematics and npcs AI I have zero experience; but, well, if people like the system, anything can/could be virtually added |
| 15:07 |
H4mlet |
about progression, I have a couple ideas |
| 15:08 |
freelikegnu |
I personnaly like grindy games tho |
| 15:08 |
H4mlet |
that is, different styles of progression, and ...death. |
| 15:08 |
H4mlet |
so you can have level 1 = 10 experience, level 2 = 20 exp, and so on |
| 15:08 |
H4mlet |
or |
| 15:09 |
H4mlet |
10, 20, 30, 50, 80 - fibonacci's sequence |
| 15:09 |
H4mlet |
or |
| 15:09 |
H4mlet |
10 100 1000 - squared |
| 15:09 |
H4mlet |
depending on one's taste |
| 15:09 |
H4mlet |
the death thing would be optional, designed to avoid poweplayers |
| 15:09 |
H4mlet |
example: |
| 15:10 |
H4mlet |
player A has been on a server for one year, its character is level 99999 |
| 15:10 |
H4mlet |
no need to say that anyone joining would be cannon fodder |
| 15:10 |
H4mlet |
not that fun, no fair play. |
| 15:11 |
H4mlet |
thus, characters might die in say, 3 months or 6 months; allowing other players not to be eternally "the lowest rank" |
| 15:11 |
Jordach |
then why not scale player damage outside of PvE |
| 15:11 |
H4mlet |
that also |
| 15:12 |
H4mlet |
you are level 10, if you hit a lvl 1 you do zero damage or get some kind of jinx |
| 15:12 |
H4mlet |
again, customizable |
| 15:13 |
H4mlet |
so basically the idea is: once you have built your nice Castle Base/Starship/Whatever you can develop your character, team with other players, etc. |
| 15:15 |
H4mlet |
Last thing: you got a steel sword, or a diamond sword - your dexterity is 0: you deal 0 damage. A weapon's material only determines its lasting, not its damage; e.g. dexterity 5, wooden sword = damage 5, dexterity 3 diamond sword = damage 3. |
| 15:16 |
H4mlet |
the same goes for tools like pickaxes, axes, etc. |
| 15:17 |
H4mlet |
...how sad for the random player which digs 'till -1000 to get a diamond sword + full armor. |
| 15:18 |
H4mlet |
Anyway, it's all just an idea in my mind, existing code = zero. |
| 15:23 |
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Jordach |
Wuzzy, i've implemented UE4 style animation systems into my MT game |
| 15:54 |
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| 15:55 |
Wuzzy |
pics or it didn't happen |
| 15:55 |
Jordach |
https://gfycat.com/favoritecluelessichidna |
| 15:55 |
Wuzzy |
oh. |
| 15:55 |
Wuzzy |
heh |
| 15:56 |
Wuzzy |
is this part of the model animation? |
| 15:56 |
Jordach |
animation groups + state |
| 15:56 |
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| 15:57 |
Wuzzy |
interesting. so no engine change needed? nice |
| 15:57 |
Jordach |
requires a 30hz server_step mind you |
| 15:57 |
Jordach |
something most VPS can't handle |
| 15:57 |
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| 15:57 |
Jordach |
i'd go 60hz but even than my Ryzen 3600X would stuggle |
| 15:59 |
Jordach |
i'm also not to be trusted when fiddling with weapon code |
| 15:59 |
Jordach |
https://gfycat.com/limpingleafyarchaeocete |
| 16:03 |
rubenwardy |
That's a bit of a knockback |
| 16:04 |
Jordach |
10000 rounds per minute with builtin knockback will do that |
| 16:04 |
Jordach |
https://what-if.xkcd.com/21/ |
| 16:06 |
Ingar |
anxious to see the rocket jump :p |
| 16:07 |
Jordach |
currently all weapons are handled as raycast types |
| 16:07 |
Jordach |
i'm intending on adding one or two entity based |
| 16:07 |
ANAND |
Jordach: That's awesome! |
| 16:12 |
Jordach |
here's a test run in action |
| 16:12 |
Jordach |
https://gfycat.com/hiddenmeatyjanenschia |
| 16:13 |
Jordach |
wrong one, https://gfycat.com/plushinsistentlcont |
| 16:16 |
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| 16:18 |
ANAND |
Sweet. Are you using set_eye_offset for the offsetted 3rd person camera? |
| 16:19 |
Jordach |
yes |
| 16:20 |
freelikegnu |
thasts awesome, Jordach |
| 16:20 |
ANAND |
It looks great! |
| 16:20 |
ANAND |
Btw are you registering the guns as nodes for mesh support? |
| 16:20 |
Jordach |
yes |
| 16:20 |
Jordach |
except i'm not using wield3d because entities are bad |
| 16:21 |
Jordach |
it's actually part of the player mesh |
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xachman |
What is the Bestiary in-game referenced on draconis https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=22595? |
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MinetestBot |
[git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest: Damage texture modifier (#9833) 9ba24f8 https://git.io/JflXr (2020-05-11T19:41:36Z) |
| 19:41 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest: Add support for statbar “off state” icons (#9462) 6e1372b https://git.io/JflXo (2020-05-11T19:40:45Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] h4ml3t -> minetest/minetest_game: doors: Update Italian translation (#2670) 16c950f https://git.io/Jfl9s (2020-05-11T21:13:00Z) |
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| 23:24 |
yaman |
Falling nodes can now be used to negate fall damage and climb up walls. Is this behavior expected with the new falling.lua? I recorded a video with [5.3.0-dev-454dbf83a-dirty (Linux)] to illustrate this: https://0x0.st/i_Uy.mp4 |
| 23:25 |
sfan5 |
expected but not desirable |
| 23:25 |
sfan5 |
maybe I do have to fix this properly |
| 23:27 |
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| 23:28 |
yaman |
In that case, I will submit an issue to document this |
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jas_ |
nice |
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