Time  Nick               Message
02:19 jonadab            The most ridiculous thing about clouds:  http://jonadab.jumpingcrab.com/pastebin/1160.png
05:03 ssieb              krock: What do you mean by "One executable cannot use more than one core"?  That's the whole point of using threads.
05:05 ssieb              Well, not the *whole* point, but a big part.
05:37 freelikegnu        i see nothing wrong with that cloud. Where I
05:37 freelikegnu        I'm from we call that fog
05:38 comrad             ground clouds!
05:55 * theenemystando[m uploaded an image: screenshot_20200424_135405.png (680KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/OUSbWLFRaTooAfueSUMfimpa >
05:56 theenemystando[m   its pretty nice when it works though
09:29 texmex             Please support #7284 ! freelikegnu, comrad, TheEnemyStando
09:29 ShadowBot          https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7284 -- Per-player customizable fog (thickness, color, ...)
09:36 theenemystando[m   yusf: per-player fog is pretty cool. how would this work with the ability of toggling fog though?
09:44 texmex             TheEnemyStando: Imo it would need to be ”authoritive” in that it would override the toggle. But that’s just me wanting to be able to create games where every player having the same conditions. Regardless i’d be happy with the feature in almost any shape.
09:45 theenemystando[m   same here, it'd would make something like blindness effect or underwater "fog" possible.
09:46 theenemystando[m   Too often I see the sky underwater, below the surface of the sea
10:14 Nyarg              if I want to load into a frame (for exaple fformspec) custom avatar picture at runtime, what do I to do ?
10:15 Nyarg              load from harddisk of cource
10:16 Nyarg              *of course
10:35 ANAND              The image has to be present in the mod's textures/ dir during server startup
10:36 ANAND              i.e. It's currently not possible to send media to the client at runtime
11:10 Nyarg              Ok. But if I want to load picture at local side working in offline mode ?
12:11 ANAND              Same story
12:11 ANAND              Texture needs to be present in the mod's textures/ dir at startup
13:59 tf2ftw             sofar, does mcactive still work? The link in the forum leads to 404
14:13 jonadab            freelikegnu: fog isn't usually a thin stripe from waist level up to about nose level.
14:13 jonadab            In my experience.
14:14 jonadab            Also, in the real world, there isn't any one specific height that all the clouds are at, so there isn't any one specific altitude where you constantly can't function because of incessant fog.  I mean, there *are* areas with constant fog, but it's for other reasons (warm water meeting cold air, usually).
15:41 Copenhagen_Bram    is it possible to open minetest with toki pona as the language?
15:49 SwissalpS          where is that spoken?
17:33 cheapie            So I found out why mesecons_mvps is so slow :P
17:33 Krock              you enabled it in your world.
17:33 cheapie            They're iterating over *every single entity on the entire server* to figure out which ones should be pushed/pulled, every time a piston/movestone is activated.
17:34 Krock              only getting nearby ones would make sense
17:34 cheapie            It would.
17:34 Krock              caching is not an option
17:34 sfan5              still somewhat slow since get_objects_in_radius doesn't have an optimal implementation
17:34 sfan5              but surely fast that doing everything in lua
17:34 Krock              well, it got better recently, although not noticeably
17:35 sfan5              I imagine adding an option to disable entity pulling/pushing would also make sense
17:35 cheapie            On the server I was troubleshooting the slow performance on, it was taking about 150ms to execute a single piston push of one node... it's that bad.
17:35 Krock              how many entities does it check each time?
17:35 cheapie            All of them.
17:35 Krock              in numbers?
17:36 cheapie            At that moment, there were 3408.
17:36 Krock              hmm, that's surprising low for that time
17:36 cheapie            Mostly sign text and other such things that should never be moved anyway.
17:37 Krock              Could you please check the difference using a binary from https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/e8ac5a31 or newer?
17:37 cheapie            They're not using that function, that's the problem.
17:37 Krock              would be interesting to have a comparison for scaling
17:37 Krock              oh right stupid me
17:38 cheapie            They're using "for id, obj in pairs(minetest.object_refs) do"...
17:38 Krock              *angry looks*
17:41 Krock              for _, obj in pairs(minetest.get_objects_inside_radius(pos, 2)) do
17:41 cheapie            Yes, that would be a lot more sane.
17:42 Krock              please check the difference. I'll push that change to the repo if it still works fine
17:42 Krock              although the range might need to be 3 to support the maximal collision box range
17:42 cheapie            I think it would have to check near each node in the stack, that's kind of a problem.
17:43 cheapie            I wish there was like a minetest.get_objects_inside_area(pos1,pos2) function, as that would be perfect.
17:44 cheapie            FWIW, I'd be 100% fine if only pistons/movestones themselves and not the pushed/pulled nodes could move entities.
17:45 cheapie            *except* for movestones with a vertical stack on top of them.
17:45 Krock              or only the head of the pushed node column/stack
17:45 cheapie            Yeah, "only the head" would work fine for my needs.
17:46 Krock              or radius = stacksize + 1
17:46 cheapie            As long as large radiuses aren't super-slow, yeah.
17:47 Krock              this will include many more entities than needed but might already bring a speed ebefit
17:59 cheapie            Krock: OK, so I tried a simple one-line patch, changing the line you gave the angry look to be "for id, obj in pairs(minetest.get_objects_inside_radius(pos,#nodestack+1)) do" - or at least I think so anyway, it was a live patch on a running server via dofile()... anyway, pistons and such still seem to work properly as far as I can tell, and even though it had been kinda fast (8ms or so) since I did a /clearobjects it's more like 1ms now.
18:00 Krock              :<  I hoped there could be a comparison of before/now
18:01 cheapie            Yes, 8ms before, 1ms now, both were after the /clearobjects which is why they're not up at like 100ms.
18:02 cheapie            Something I can do if you want - there's a machine I have on that server that normally becomes unbearably slow after the server has been running for a few hours - I can check back later and see if it's still fast.
18:03 Krock              only if that mvps performance causes its slowness
18:03 cheapie            That had been determined already, yes.
18:04 cheapie            As stuff starts slowing down, it's all mvps stuff that slows, and only mvps stuff.
18:05 cheapie            At the moment, that machine has already slowed down enough that there's a noticeable difference between the patched and original versions just from watching it.
18:07 cheapie            If I give the server another few hours for people to run around and cause more sign entities to be regenerated, the unpatched function will probably slow back down to making it unbearably slow and then I can test it vs. the patched one again at that point.
18:10 sfan5              doesn't signs_lib have a command to regenerate entities?
18:10 cheapie            Only in loaded mapblocks :/
18:12 cheapie            OK, so I did some more running around to try to get the entity count back up some - a piston push of a single node is taking about 30-40ms without the patch and around 1ms with it.
18:14 cheapie            Testing with pushing 16 nodes, the unpatched version is taking about 20-30ms (don't ask me why it's faster than moving 1 node) and the patched version is hovering around 3-6ms.
18:26 sofar              tf2ftw: mcactive? what?
18:36 oil_boi            doesn't signs_lib have a command to regenerate entities? Yes but it should happen automatically
18:37 cheapie            oil_boi: Yes, but only on load.
18:38 oil_boi            That is not good
18:38 cheapie            Why not?
18:38 cheapie            That's usually fairly standard practice for nodes that have entities that go with them to provide extra functionality - an LBM that checks if the entity is still there and creates it if not.
18:39 oil_boi            The player should not be able to tell when a sing is change data, or regenerating data, only to see when the sign is too far and for it to unload and then reload as they get closer
18:39 cheapie            So you want the engine to magically know that the sign is going to be loaded before it actually is?
18:40 oil_boi            No the mod should know how far the player is from the sign and then unload reload accordingly
18:40 oil_boi            Also if clearobjects is run it should auto regenerate
18:41 oil_boi            The sign should be semi sentient even if that sentience is calculated per individual client around the position
18:41 cheapie            There's no "someone ran /clearobjects" callback that I know of.
18:41 nephele            oil_boi, the server already sends entities only in a specific radius
18:42 cheapie            Anyway, signs_lib is from VanessaE, talk to her if you think it should work differently.
18:42 oil_boi            Yes but that's different from LBM, and cheapie I am making it work differently
18:44 cheapie            oil_boi: I'm still not really sure I understand what you want the sign to do, then.
18:44 cheapie            Are you saying the node should cease to exist too when the entity does?
18:44 oil_boi            But right now I am too busy being drunk and listening to Excision to do paste any code or explain what my commit changes are
18:46 cheapie            Krock: How's this for a comparison? https://cheapiesystems.com/media/pistonspeedup.webm
18:47 cheapie            That's a hidden piston door using digilines pistons - it tries to run as fast as it can, with lots of interrupt(0) use.
18:47 cheapie            It's being demonstrated opening and closing first without and then with the patch.
18:47 oil_boi            Oh wait I had a moment of clarity, the client should use minetest.find_nodes_in_area and then tell the client to load them otherwise don't
18:47 Krock              nice speed
18:47 cheapie            oil_boi: So... how big of an area would that be?
18:48 oil_boi            The client should have a variable from a clientside menu to decide default to 12 xyz
18:48 cheapie            "close enough to load the mapblock" isn't a suitable value for this? :P
18:49 oil_boi            That's why I haven't implemented that into crafter, the clientside menu is a think on it's own, and no it's not at all, imagine 100000+ signs with entities loaded into the server
18:49 oil_boi            I need to think about it more and take notes before I can create a better way
18:49 Krock              reduce level of detail over distance
18:50 cheapie            Krock: It seems to behave exactly the same as before except for the speed, though admittedly I'm not all that familiar with how it's supposed to act entity-wise.
18:50 oil_boi            No Krock that's not too good actually, the memory data will still be loaded into the client and it still needs to process it
18:50 cheapie            oil_boi: 100k signs? That would take an awful lot of players.
18:50 oil_boi            But if the client could be told by the server the radius that it needs to be loaded within a certain radius that would work insanely well
18:51 oil_boi            cheapie, you have to think 10,000 steps ahead or a mod will lag on a server
18:51 cheapie            VE-Creative doesn't lag :P
18:51 cheapie            And that has signs_lib with a ton of signs.
18:51 Krock              just overclock the CPU when mods get laggy
18:51 Krock              easy fix
18:52 oil_boi            That's because the entities don't calculate their movement and I've been on there and the client goes from 500-700 FPS to 10-54 when I enter an area with a lot of signs
18:52 cheapie            Easy fix for that too, get a better CPU and/or video card or turn your view range down :P
18:52 Krock              is each sign one entity, or is each letter an entity?
18:52 cheapie            Krock: Each sign.
18:53 Krock              ... just us e[ combine
18:53 Krock              *use [combine
18:53 cheapie            ...yes, that's more or less how it works.
18:53 oil_boi            Players only need to see what they read when it comes to signs otherwise it's wasted cpu because the amount of pixels your screen can actually render quickly degredates the farther you are from a sign
18:53 Krock              oh. "each sign". well, each sign can have one or multiple entities
18:53 cheapie            oil_boi: Then don't use signs_lib :P
18:54 oil_boi            cheapie, that's quite a cop out when it can be vastly improved with the experimental features
18:54 cheapie            I can't just magically figure out which sign a player probably wants to read.
18:54 oil_boi            That's why we need the client to download client mods auto when joining a server otherwise custom servers become an extreme mess
18:54 Krock              cheapie: telepathy connection through SSH
18:54 cheapie            ...what does CSM have to do with that?
18:54 oil_boi            Oh you can cheapie, distance
18:55 cheapie            That's *what the view range setting is for*
18:55 Krock              or active_object_send_range_blocks
18:55 oil_boi            fuck it, when I sober up I'll address https://github.com/oilboi/Crafter/issues/7
18:55 oil_boi            Yeah, that is insane to calculate that serverside
18:55 cheapie            Maybe when you sober up this'll make more sense.
18:56 oil_boi            Oh no, it's made sense for about 27 days, I just don't feel like implementing it because it's around 2700 lines of code
18:56 Krock              flashbacks to the time when /clearobjects deleted players as well
18:57 cheapie            Krock: Oh, not just /clearobjects, players used to just be deleted at random :P
18:57 Krock              due to entity overload in a mapblock yes
18:57 Krock              but these were separate issues
18:58 Krock              or when invalid param2 values caused a segfault in 0.4.7 :D
18:58 cheapie            Or when /rollback_check took over 10 minutes :P
18:58 Krock              right. rollback itself is still slow, though.
18:59 cheapie            Yeah, I found the problem causing that and mentioned it in #minetest-dev, but I don't really want to go submit a PR and have to deal with them over there.
18:59 cheapie            Basically back when I fixed /rollback_check it broke /rollback in the process.
18:59 Krock              depending on your last time there, a lot might have changed
18:59 Krock              ugh
19:00 cheapie            The fix is to create a second index in the rollback DB, on the "timestamp" column of the "actor" table.
19:00 Krock              then sort by timestamp
19:01 cheapie            There used to be one there, but I mistakenly removed it when fixing the other index problems.
19:01 VanessaE           what
19:01 cheapie            VanessaE: ?
19:02 VanessaE           what's needed with those sign entities is a way to fade them out
19:02 VanessaE           but that distance needs to be something the mod can specify per-entity
19:02 cheapie            VanessaE's rollback DBs have that second index created on them already, and they seem to be fast enough at both /rollback_check and /rollback now.
19:02 VanessaE           (big signs with big text are readable from farther away than small signs)
19:05 cheapie            VanessaE: I've put two files in VE-C's world directory at the moment - test-piston-fix.lua switches to that patched function in mesecons_mvps and undo-test-piston-fix.lua switches back to the original. You can dofile() them from in game to switch.
19:05 cheapie            At the moment, I have some command blocks down in my playground area, by the hidden piston door, that switch them as well.
19:07 jas_               !server jastest
19:07 MinetestBot        jas_: jastest | jastest.duckdns.org | Clients: 0/15, 0/0 | Version: 5.3.0-dev / minetest | Ping: 135ms
19:07 jas_               (gotta get to the switch to build) just added skins
19:07 jas_               hi
19:09 Krock              VanessaE: fading out is only an eye candy. Only skipping the render part helps
19:09 MinetestBot        02[git] 04An0n3m0us -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Fix door model UV for open and close (#2372) 13189d2d9 https://git.io/JfLX8 (152020-04-24T19:04:00Z)
19:11 VanessaE           Krock: yeah but if they begin to fade away say 5m before some set distance, and then unload entirely if they're past that distance..?
19:11 Krock              feasible. what about zoom, what about letter size?
19:11 VanessaE           not unlike how terrain works (when infinite view is turned off)
19:12 Krock              infinite view doesn't exist anyway
19:12 VanessaE           I mean "r" mode.
19:12 Krock              occluded mapblocks are never rendered, also false-positives
19:13 VanessaE           yeah but I'm referring to the dog distance for those.
19:13 VanessaE           merely for comparison
19:13 MinetestBot        02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Fix flammable item entities crashing (#2659) 1333eb7ce https://git.io/JfLXo (152020-04-24T19:12:40Z)
19:13 jas_               \o/
19:14 VanessaE           beyond the fog threshold, the map block isn't even rendered at all.
19:14 VanessaE           entities ought to be able to do something similar.
19:14 VanessaE           letter size?  that's why the mod needs to specify it per-entity.  a wall sign with small text is readable up to about 8m away.  big signs, more like 20m.
19:16 VanessaE           so with those small signs I might like to set a distance limit of, oh, let's say 15m.  they'd begin to fade away (become translucent to the sign background) when you got say 10m away, and by the time you're 15m away, the entity has faded away entirely and so it can be unloaded by the client
19:16 VanessaE           that way you don't just see the text popping in and out of existence as you walk around.
19:18 VanessaE           er, s/dog/fog/ earlier ;P
19:19 VanessaE           or maybe I shouldn't say unloaded, but just stops being rendered
19:19 Copenhagen_Bram    <SwissalpS> where is that spoken?
19:19 Copenhagen_Bram    toki pona is spoken on the internet, I believe
19:23 tf2ftw             sofar, the MC to MT texture tool you have posted in the forum. The posts is pretty old and the link to the tool is dead. I ask because its a pinned forum post.
19:26 VanessaE           Krock: oh, as for zoom, since under my suggested scheme the entities would still be loaded and just not rendered when too far away, zooming in on a sign should just render the entity without the fade effect.
19:26 VanessaE           (and turn them on for signs that are out of normal range)
19:28 VanessaE           (maybe multiply the distance limit, so signs that are far away than the cut-off, are fading out in the zoomed view, 3x farther away, or whatever the zoom level is)
19:30 Copenhagen_Bram    so why doesn't minetest have stuff like toki pona and pirate speak and lolcat like minecraft does?
19:31 VanessaE           what would those even do?
19:31 rubenwardy         I think we have higher priorities than that
19:34 ANAND              ^
19:35 VanessaE           Copenhagen_Bram: that said, those sound like things that can be done with a mod
19:43 Copenhagen_Bram    VanessaE: They're languages
19:44 Copenhagen_Bram    well, the last two, sort of. The last two are basically humorous variations on English
19:44 Copenhagen_Bram    I wonder what the LANG= code would be for toki pona
19:47 VanessaE           yeah as I said, you could do it with a mod, translating chat messages one way or the other
20:17 Copenhagen_Bram    Hmm
20:22 cheapie            Copenhagen_Bram: Fun fact, if the LANG thing uses the ISO 639-3 codes, there's one for Klingon ("tlh")
21:07 sofar              tf2ftw: mcresconvert
21:08 sofar              https://github.com/minetest-tools/mcresconvert
21:10 tf2ftw             thanks
22:04 scott_             when starting a game with the "mobs" mod enabled, I'm getting the following error: 'mod "mobs" has unsatisfied dependencies: "default"'
22:06 sfan5              where did you download this "mobs" mod? are you using minetest_game?
22:10 scott_             sorry I'm playing Mineclone 2 and I downloaded it from the "content" tab in the in-game menu
22:13 rschulman          Is the `pos` in the call to `after_place_node` the position of the node that was placed or the player that placed it?
22:13 sfan5              chances are it's not compatible with mineclone2 then
22:13 sfan5              rschulman: the node obviously
22:13 sfan5              you could easily retrieve the position of the placing player yourself
22:14 rschulman          That's what I figured, but calling `minetest.get_node_timer(pos)` is returning something of the type `userdata`, which I'm confused by.
22:15 sfan5              it returns an object of this type: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L5792
22:18 rschulman          Yeah, I know, that's what I'm expecting, but if I do `local node_to_start = minetest.get_node_timer(pos)` then `print(node_to_start)` I get `userdata: 0x40255f50`
22:19 rschulman          so I'm clearly using it wrong. :)
22:20 scott_             thanks sfan5
22:25 sfan5              rschulman: that's expected behaviour though, the NodeTimerRef object can't be printed as a string
22:27 rschulman          Ok, I figured it out. I needed to call `node_to_start:set` with a colon, I was using a period.
22:43 nephele            mineclone2 does not implement the default mod
22:44 nephele            either the mobs mod shoudl explicitly support it, or a compat layer may be used (i don't know of any though...)
22:44 VanessaE           it's up to mineclone2 to remain compatible with regular mods imho
22:45 nephele            There are no regular mods
22:45 nephele            and there is no guranteed api for which nodes are available or not
22:45 VanessaE           I mean mods written with minetest_game in mind.
22:45 VanessaE           don't split hairs :P
22:45 VanessaE           I mean, shit, 90% of all minetest mods depend on `default`
22:45 nephele            It's unreasonable to demand that mineclone2 implement mtg aswell as itself ;)
22:46 VanessaE           and actually, there is -- minetest.registered_items{}
22:46 nephele            That's not a compatibility layer, that's just a method one could use to implement one
22:46 VanessaE           yes... and?
22:47 nephele            So, you are incorrect in saying it is one?
22:47 VanessaE           I read "api" as "a feature of the modding api"
22:47 VanessaE           and that table is one.
22:48 nephele            I men that as in, there is no gurantee that default:wood is available in future mtg version
22:48 nephele            as in what mods can expect for crafting recipes, there is simply no gurantee currently for known good values
22:48 VanessaE           the probability of something basic like that being removed is basically 0
22:48 nephele            groups could be somewhat portable but mtg doesn't implement them widely
22:49 nephele            What makes you say that? it's entirely possible that blocks get replaced with variants of the block, i.e that only pine_wood etc. exist
22:49 sfan5              the bigger issue IMO aren't items or nodes but functions such as player_api or sfinv that are minetest_game specific
22:50 nephele            Crafting recipes hinge on node names
22:50 nephele            if you can't craft many node mods aren't usable for instance
22:50 VanessaE           mineclone's seeks to be different.  I get that.  but being SO different that you can't even have a "skeleton" `default` mod that consists of just aliases between its nodes and functions, and those of mtg?  that's taking the concept too far.
22:51 nephele            You could implement a mod named "default" for mtg that registers aliases
22:51 VanessaE           no
22:51 nephele            but again, mtg is a moving target, maintaining this is non-trivial
22:51 VanessaE           you implement it for mineclone
22:51 nephele            I ment mineclone
22:51 VanessaE           mtg is not as much a moving target as you think...
22:51 nephele            sorry, i mistyled
22:51 VanessaE           when was the last time some node or sound was *removed* from mtg>
22:51 nephele            Sure it is, there is not a single api or node for which mtg provides any gurantees of existance
22:52 VanessaE           (I can only remember the poptart cat and that was years ago)
22:52 VanessaE           how long must something persist before you consider it stable?
22:53 nephele            code rot is not a sign of stability
22:53 nephele            and neither is acumilating code depth
22:53 nephele            If you want a stable api to target for mods, you need just that an actually defined api
22:53 VanessaE           *sigh*
22:53 VanessaE           you didn't answer the question
22:54 nephele            I literally did
22:54 VanessaE           no, you didn't
22:54 sfan5              there's no guarantee that mineclone must have a specific (or any) type of wood either
22:54 nephele            Yes i did
22:54 VanessaE           I asked for a time length
22:54 sfan5              so how would you actually define a "stable" api?
22:54 nephele            And i told you that there is no time length that would ever make something stable
22:54 nephele            sfan5, write it down
22:54 VanessaE           so by that metric, NOTHING can be stable and the minetest modding API can't be relied on?
22:55 nephele            The modding api provides gurantees
22:55 nephele            I know what calls version 5.0.0 has, i can rely on them
22:55 nephele            I also know which calls are deprecated
22:55 sfan5              so you write down "outer straw stairs" and by consequence every game that wants to be compatible needs to have straw, stairs, straw stairs and an outer variant of them?
22:55 VanessaE           oh, and, I'm looking right at your text, you did NOT say anything implying "no time length"
22:56 nephele            sfan5, any game that wants to be able to provide a craftin recipe involving outer straw stairs, yes
22:56 nephele            VanessaE, i literally did "code rot is not a sign of stability"
22:56 VanessaE           what has code rot to do with time required to consider something "stable" in the sense that you can rely on it being there?
22:56 nephele            someone not changing a component for any time is not an indicator of it beeing a stable or an endorsed api
22:57 nephele            Time has nothing to do with it
22:57 VanessaE           horseshit
22:57 sfan5              nephele: right, then you have a "stable" API but just about everything is optional?
22:57 VanessaE           something is "stable" if it can be relied on to be there and to work as intended.
22:57 nephele            sfan5, no, the point of such a gurantee is to have, you know, a gurantee
22:57 nephele            same with posix, most systems implement it almost completely
22:57 nephele            and those that dont simply arent compatible
22:58 nephele            VanessaE, that has nothing to do with api compatibility
22:58 VanessaE           it has *everything* to do with it!
22:58 nephele            like the mod above that relied on mtg, while presumebly beeing perfectly adaptable to run on mineclone
22:58 sfan5              but you just said a game would a game would only provide outer straw stairs if it wanted to be compatible, so doesn't that mean they are optional?
22:58 VanessaE           the engine modding API is stable.  the minetest_game API is considered stable, too, as is its contents.
22:59 VanessaE           as are*
22:59 nephele            No it doesn't, if you for some reason think outer straw stairs are essential enough to define in this layer and a game does then not implement them it is incompatible
22:59 VanessaE           I'm pretty sure nearly every minetest modder would agree with me
22:59 VanessaE           (the 0.4.x/5.x.x break notwithstanding)
22:59 sfan5              ok
23:00 nephele            MTG is not stable, there are no gurantees for anything
23:00 nephele            literally nothing i can rely on and just port over to mineclone2 as an api defintion mods can just use
23:00 sfan5              then you end up with a "stable" api that is defined to contain exactly the nodes/items MTG has
23:00 sfan5              ...which is not very useful at all
23:00 sfan5              since games that do not implement all of it are automatically "incompatible"
23:00 nephele            sfan5, It obviously would not contain the exact same nodes
23:01 sfan5              no then where do you draw the line?
23:01 nephele            sfan5, crafting groups are extremely usefull for this
23:01 nephele            for instance a group:solid_fuel would already provide huge compaitbility
23:02 nephele            In a sense, the crafting api destinction for what type of crafting it is, like smelting, is exactly the kind of compat you could easily have over severall gamemodes
23:02 sfan5              isn't that the intersection of (all nodes) and (items that have a fuel craft registered)?
23:02 nephele            it's kind of a shame that the number of crafting types is fixed
23:03 nephele            sfan5, I mean for instance too, most gamemodes have wood, so a crafting recipe involving wood could use a group for that crafting
23:03 nephele            it doesn't need to rely on the specific nodenames that are in mtg
23:03 sfan5              yes
23:03 GreenXenith        You could just roll your own crafting system
23:03 nephele            but a compatible implementation can check a known good source of the crafting groups that are expected
23:03 sfan5              doesn't that already work? I've seen several mods that use group:wood
23:03 nephele            sfan5, yes, but there is still no spec for it
23:04 nephele            if any other game wants basic compatibility with mtg they have to go dig around inn mtgs source
23:04 nephele            and that isn't really pleasent imo...
23:04 sfan5              sounds like it should be documented in game_api.txt then
23:04 nephele            I don't have that file
23:05 sfan5              https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/game_api.txt
23:06 nephele            That's full of mtg specific stuff, for a "base target" if you will it would make more sense to have it outside mtg and have mtg implement it
23:07 sfan5              I didn't say that it is the base target you propose
23:07 sfan5              just that this would be the place where MTG could document its node and item groups for easy cross-game compatibility
23:07 nephele            That is then again everyone chasing mtg
23:07 nephele            it's not really a base target
23:08 sfan5              nobody said that?
23:08 nephele            You said it would be good to put in game_api.txt
23:08 nephele            I don't think it fits the goal to have more compatibiltiy anyhow
23:09 nephele            Some names might make sense to take straight from mtg now, but if they are too specific they may not make any sense for other games anymore
23:09 sfan5              I said that it would be good to put documentation on which groups MTG uses in game_api.txt
23:09 nephele            as an unrelated comment?
23:09 nephele            i guess
23:10 sfan5              <nephele> sfan5, yes, but there is still no spec for it
23:10 sfan5              <nephele> if any other game wants basic compatibility with mtg they have to go dig around inn mtgs source
23:10 sfan5              ???
23:10 nephele            There is no baseline spec
23:11 nephele            You need to define which groups you can use, as a baseline, nobody is going to implement everything game_api.txt sais into their own subgame, that is too big a target
23:11 VanessaE           it almost sounds as if you want some of mtg's content moved to the engine and renamed/grouped in some generic, less-descript way?
23:11 nephele            No, it has no place in the engine
23:11 nephele            That statement makes me wonder though, whether you actually read anything i have written this far
23:12 sfan5              nephele: my comment is entirely unrelated to your baseline spec propoal, but it is in direct response to you pointing out that MTG (specifically) has no documentation on its groups
23:12 VanessaE           I have, and you are being utterly unclear
23:12 nephele            moving files around wont help for compatibility, mod authors need a good target to shoot at, if it's too much trouble to use a common subset they just wont (as you can observe now), and game authors need a damn good description of what they are supposed to implement as a baseline
23:13 VanessaE           wtf is a "baseline spec"?  wtf do you want mtg to "implement" such that another game could also "implement" in a compatible way?
23:13 nephele            "what the fuck do you want minetest game to implement such that another game could also implement in a compatible way"
23:13 VanessaE           I mean look...
23:14 nephele            could you rephrase this in english?
23:14 sfan5              basic things such as: you have nodes made out of something {stone,wood,dirt,fluid}-like, items that are flammable/cookable, maybe generalized minerals?
23:14 sfan5              I'd assume
23:14 VanessaE           mtg has stone, mineclone2 has stone (I assume).  the two have a footstep sound.  the two have, I dunno, sun and moon textures or something
23:14 sfan5              that might still be too specific if you were to make a space game on a moon though
23:14 nephele            In some places the engine could absolutely provide some better apis for cross-gamemode compatibility, but it shouldn't implement anything of mtg
23:15 nephele            sfan5, at some point you gott to have a cutoff, there is only so much compatibility you can have before you need explicit support
23:15 VanessaE           so what's so wrong with using mtg's file/function/item names internally for those things?  or alising them?
23:15 VanessaE           aliasing*
23:15 nephele            MTG is a moving target and has no api gurantees
23:16 VanessaE           Jesus fuck, man, MTG IS NOT A MOVING TARGET
23:16 nephele            Yes it is
23:16 VanessaE           then how come all of my mods work fine on it?
23:16 nephele            what?
23:16 VanessaE           some of my mods have code so old they'd still be able to run on 0.4.0 :P
23:17 nephele            so what?
23:17 VanessaE           (if not for the fact that I occasionally take advantage of new features as they become available)
23:17 sfan5              nephele is correct that MTG has no stability guarantees, but in practice nothing (of significance?) has been removed EVER
23:17 VanessaE           is that not the very definition of a stable API?  that code written for the oldest version still works in the newest?
23:17 nephele            My game wont run on mt lower than 5.1.0, i deliberately broke compatibility, but that is beside the point
23:17 sfan5              and if something were to be removed you'd likely meet resistance from the devs, their intention being to enforce this informal rule
23:18 nephele            I am not going to implement every fucking node in mtg, and especially not every random api call they have
23:18 nephele            I am perfectly willing to implement some crafting groups and some node aliases, sure, but not the entire fucking game
23:18 sfan5              I don't think anyone is suggesting that
23:18 appguru            Backwards compatibility should be kept to some extend, but sometimes things need to change
23:18 nephele            and then having to catch up with every change
23:18 VanessaE           sfan5: yes, and I won't debate that particular point.  but a lack of an official, sanctioned guarantee does not make the game API unstable or "moving target"
23:18 appguru            Are we talking about MTG?
23:18 nephele            Yes
23:18 VanessaE           appguru: no.
23:18 sfan5              appguru: logs are in the topic
23:19 nephele            specifically corss-game compatibility where mods only work on mtg currently
23:19 VanessaE           appguru: we're talking about how mineclone2 isn't compatible with mods meant for minetest_game and somehow that's the mods' or mtg's fault.
23:19 sfan5              VanessaE: it certainly is a moving target if you are aiming for (almost) full compatibility
23:19 sfan5              I hope nobody does that, though
23:19 nephele            VanessaE, what??
23:19 nephele            If that is your gist than you didn't understand anything i said
23:19 VanessaE           sfan5: I wouldn't think a game that aims to be a Minecraft clone would seek to keep up with mtg's content?
23:19 appguru            I always go for latest stability with my mods.
23:20 appguru            (each of my mods is meant to work with the latest version of other mods)
23:20 sfan5              nephele: so why not take some basic nodes MTG has and add aliases to your game? do you fear that you'll have to keep changing them?
23:20 VanessaE           did I not suggest that like, an hour ago?
23:20 VanessaE           :P
23:20 appguru            that's a good point
23:20 appguru            you should probably make that configurable
23:21 nephele            sfan5, absolutely not
23:21 appguru            probably even using an additional mod, mtg_compat which can be enabled if desired
23:21 nephele            I am not digging through mtgs code and implementing support for some nodes at random and hoping that will give me compatibility
23:21 nephele            because it will not
23:21 nephele            i now have mods that are only 5 errors instead of 12, and nothing gained, still completely unuseable
23:21 appguru            you should always have the mods in mind you which your mods are meant to be compatible with
23:22 nephele            unless there is a baseline that mod authors can actually target when they wish to be cross-game compatible there is nothing to do
23:22 nephele            except for trying to implement mtg fully, which i am not willing to so
23:22 appguru            there is something to do
23:22 appguru            there are quite some API mods out there
23:22 appguru            those are your "baselines"
23:22 appguru            MTG's player_api is a good example
23:22 nephele            appguru, and again, nobody was talking about those
23:22 GreenXenith        Except when you have 4 API mods that all do the same thing
23:23 sfan5              so you want a base specification of some set amount of nodes/items (that MTG also has), which when implemented guarantees that random mods will work with your game?
23:23 appguru            This does not belong into the engine though.
23:23 sfan5              at least that's what I gather from the fact that you don't want partial support(?)
23:23 VanessaE           appguru: well at least I addressed that with things like basic_materials, signs_lib, biome_lib, ... :)
23:24 appguru            (y)
23:24 nephele            sfan5, Whether mtg now does or does not have nodes is pretty irrelevant, there should be some crafting groups that i can knowingly implement, against which mod authors can test and be reasonably sure that their mod will be somewhat compatible
23:24 nephele            a baseline, if you will....
23:24 appguru            The engine already has too much game-specific stuff IMO. It should've been a generic voxel game engine.
23:24 sfan5              I guarantee you many relevant mods will need feature XYZ that isn't in that "baseline" and you're back at square one with compatibility
23:25 nephele            At the moment, as a mod author, it's pretty damn impossible to make your mod compatible with most subgames unless you spend hours hunting for version specific nodes in each one and hope they line up
23:25 nephele            sfan5, so what?
23:25 appguru            depends on the mods you're making
23:25 nephele            I don't have to give a shit about mods that don't care about compatibility, they wont now and they wont then
23:25 nephele            appguru, Absolutely, Not beeing able to make my mod properly portable is the sole reason i made my mod into a gamemode
23:25 appguru            if those subgames using common libraries then there is no issue
23:26 nephele            ITS STILL NOT ABOUT LIBRARIES
23:26 sfan5              I don't understand this
23:26 VanessaE           yet you expect some mods to deliberately be compatible with MC2?
23:26 sfan5              when it's about implementing random nodes from MTG, you complain that mod compatibility won't be good enough so it's still unusable
23:26 GreenXenith        appguru, they are talking about items. Libraries cant help with items (generally).
23:26 VanessaE           what about the 47 bazillion other games out there?
23:26 sfan5              when it's about features missing from a potential "baseline" specification, suddenly you don't have to care about mod compatibility
23:27 nephele            Yes
23:27 nephele            Mod authors can care aslong as they have something to target
23:27 VanessaE           THEY HAVE.
23:27 nephele            if they can't target anything they can't care
23:27 nephele            VanessaE, no they dont
23:27 appguru            Item compatibility? Not that hard. Aliases are one approach.
23:27 VanessaE           they have had something reasonable to target since 0.4.0 came out.
23:27 VanessaE           and that was ...8? years ago?
23:27 appguru            Others are restructuring your code to not work using itemnames but rather groups for example.
23:27 GreenXenith        appguru, read the logs please
23:27 nephele            VanessaE, and again, it's not about the mt api...
23:27 GreenXenith        this has already been discussed
23:27 nephele            appguru, ugh
23:28 nephele            It waas about item groups already
23:28 sfan5              nephele: I believe what she means is that minetest_game has been a stable target since 0.4.0
23:28 nephele            but again, no gurantee, nobody has written down, or knows what an expected subset of groups is
23:28 VanessaE           nephele: mt API != mtg API; so what IS it about?
23:28 nephele            VanessaE, Cross-gamemode compatibility of third-party mods ffs
23:28 appguru            we don't need business-level guarantees for a game :P
23:28 VanessaE           sfan5: indeed.
23:28 VanessaE           nephele: so I reiterate,
23:29 nephele            sfan5, minetest game is an irrelevant target because i can't implement it
23:29 VanessaE           [04-24 19:26] <VanessaE> yet you expect some mods to deliberately be compatible with MC2?
23:29 VanessaE           [04-24 19:26] <VanessaE> what about the 47 bazillion other games out there?
23:29 appguru            APIs change just like item names, and your mods will have to change as well
23:29 appguru            Deal with it
23:29 nephele            so it's unuseable a sa baseling
23:29 sfan5              nobody is saying it's usable as baseline
23:29 sfan5              or that you should implement 100%
23:29 nephele            Exactly, it isn't
23:29 nephele            appguru, are we speaking the same language?
23:29 appguru            > The engine already has too much game-specific stuff.
23:30 sfan5              the reality is though if you implement the right subset of maybe 50 nodes/items, most mods will work just fine
23:30 appguru            oof
23:30 nephele            Okay...?
23:30 VanessaE           now I'm starting to get a little pissed off...
23:30 appguru            > are we speaking the same language?
23:30 sfan5              the only problem with this is that there is no documentation on what to implement
23:30 nephele            good that we werent talking about the engine then
23:30 appguru            probably not
23:30 nephele            sfan5, yes...
23:30 GreenXenith        VE, you're always a little pissed off :)
23:30 nephele            what i have been saying for the last fucking hour
23:30 appguru            that was a copy & paste issue, for context
23:30 appguru            is that you want good standards?
23:30 VanessaE           GreenXenith: not always, you're thinking of Bruce Banner :P
23:30 GreenXenith        Fair 'nuff
23:31 nephele            sfan5, "the reality is though if you implement the right subset of maybe 50 nodes/items, most mods will work just fine"
23:31 sfan5              nephele: what I gathered is that you specifically taking issue in there not being a baseline and that (anything with MTG) couldn't possibly work
23:31 nephele            That's not true, each game will implement a different subset
23:31 sfan5              but it appears the last is not actually an issue
23:31 appguru            I agree with nephele that we need some more specifications
23:31 VanessaE           sfan5: it almost sounds like he wants some mtg stuff split off into an out-of-game mod?
23:31 nephele            without a sense of direction or guidance you won't attain any meaningfull compatibility
23:31 sfan5              VanessaE: not split, just documented
23:32 VanessaE           sfan5: except he was talking about implementation as well, not just the API
23:32 appguru            good example is Wuzzy's #9606 - that thing focuses on HUD element z indexes, but we'd need similar conventions for item names
23:32 VanessaE           s/API/documentation of contents/
23:32 sfan5              ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
23:32 ShadowBot          https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9606 -- [discuss] Come up with a convention for HUD element z_index
23:33 nephele            VanessaE, of course i was talking about implementations! I am a literall gamemode author, i have opinions on this
23:33 nephele            and i think sticking my hand into mtg and implementing what bit me is not a good aproach
23:33 appguru            Only convention that I remember from the top of my head is that itemnames should always be `category_type` for meaningful sorting (like `sword_steel` instead of the intuitive `steel_sword`)
23:33 GreenXenith        Literal game author as opposed to .. a figurative one? :D
23:33 sfan5              nephele: what one considers "meaningful compatibility" is up to the game author, it's true that a potential baseline has strictly better compatibility yet I think it's realistic to implement a subset of MTG to achieve good enough compatibility
23:33 nephele            GreenXenith, absolutely :D
23:34 appguru            what is a figurative game author supposed to be?
23:34 nephele            sfan5, again, no it isn't, each gamemode will pick a different subset, and as a mod author you still can't target anything meaningfull
23:34 sfan5              well okay if you believe it isn't then it is not for you
23:34 GreenXenith        A figurative game author probably makes imaginary games :^)
23:34 nephele            sfan5, what is? implementing mtg compat?
23:35 sfan5              "implement a subset of MTG to achieve good enough compatibility" < this
23:35 nephele            It won't work without a known subset
23:35 appguru            MTG does not belong into the engine
23:35 nephele            specifically picking a random subset won't work
23:35 sfan5              depends on your definition of "work"
23:35 sfan5              but evidently you believe that it can't work
23:35 nephele            appguru, yes, you said so before, and again, nobody is talking about the engine
23:36 appguru            but it seemed so, or where else do you expect this to be implemented if not in MTG?
23:36 nephele            sfan5, if you have a known set of nodes and crafting groups that games claim to implement any incompatibility resulting from this is a bug you can adress
23:36 nephele            if you just pick a random subset then the mod author is the one that has to test and add exceptions for every gamemode
23:36 appguru            On a side note: I think MTG should be reorganized, with each mod getting it's own repo & MTG effectively becoming a collection of submodules
23:36 GreenXenith        Hmm. appguru mentioned API mods and everyone said it wasnt relevant .. but one could create a compatibility-layer mod with a compiled index of multiple games' items all linked to categories that could be optionally used by mods that wish to have complete compat.
23:36 nephele            appguru, implement what?
23:37 appguru            A common item layer, also known as CLI.
23:37 GreenXenith        A Command Line Interface? Nono ;)
23:37 nephele            .... you know minetest has crafting groups...... riiight?
23:37 appguru            I do
23:37 VanessaE           so, again, split some of mtg into a separate, out-of-game mod that both it and MC2 would import and use.
23:37 VanessaE           that's clearly what you're asking for.
23:37 nephele            No that's stupid
23:38 GreenXenith        What is the usecase of all this discussion?
23:38 appguru            That isn't stupid at all
23:38 nephele            Yes it is
23:38 nephele            Mtg is gpl, i can't use that
23:38 appguru            VanessaE is totally right: common dependencies shouldn't be split off
23:38 nephele            I also fail to see what you have against documentation
23:38 VanessaE           how else do you expect to establish a baseline?
23:38 appguru            * should be
23:38 sfan5              VanessaE: via a specification
23:38 VanessaE           sfan5: which has to be implemented.... in a mod.
23:38 appguru            yeah, like Wuzzy's issue: a convention written down in the docs
23:38 nephele            VanessaE, no it doesn't
23:39 VanessaE           and most of that implementation could easily come from mtg
23:39 sfan5              no not that way
23:39 GreenXenith        What is being solved here? I saw MTG and MCL2 mentioned .. is nephele trying to make a mod that works with both without having to manually defined which items to depend on from each game?
23:39 GreenXenith        -d
23:39 sfan5              you specify " 'default:stone' should be a solid, stone-like node "
23:39 sfan5              MTG and MCL2 can (and should) both implement this in their own way
23:39 VanessaE           sfan5: well, what good is a specification if you don't *implement* it?
23:40 nephele            GreenXenith, I maintain a gamemode for minetest, i would like to implement atleast a subset so mod authors can target this subset to atleast have a fairly good compatibility across gammodes
23:40 sfan5              with zero common properties other than what the specificiation say
23:40 sfan5              you do not literally need the same stone node in both mtg and mcl2
23:40 appguru            I'd say the fault is probably at the fault of the games which are not taking MTG as baseline
23:40 VanessaE           and if you implement it once, why not re-use that implementation wherever possible?
23:40 nephele            sfan5, something like that, i wouldn't pick the default: name though for obvious reasons
23:40 appguru            You should contact their authors and ask them to change item names
23:40 appguru            Or provide a compatibility layer
23:40 sfan5              VanessaE: because not every game should be variant of MTG
23:41 sfan5              that would be kinda boring
23:41 GreenXenith        Games should not be based on MTG at all
23:41 nephele            appguru, uhm, yeah no, i have no interest, whatsoever to follow mtgs idiotic naming conventions and implementing it
23:41 appguru            Nu
23:41 VanessaE           sfan5: sure, I get that, but it's still e.g. "default:stone"...
23:41 appguru            MTG's naming conventions aren't that idiotic
23:41 GreenXenith        Down with MTG conventions!
23:41 appguru            Problem is, everyone thinks the other's conventions are idiotic
23:41 nephele            VanessaE, it would likely be more like group:solid_stone or something
23:41 appguru            So in the end you have no baseline :')
23:41 nephele            or a different name
23:41 appguru            cracky?
23:41 GreenXenith        So what I said earlier: A single item compatibility layer can totally be used to accomplish this goal.
23:42 appguru            but coming back GreenXenith: MTG is a good base
23:42 appguru            you just have to use it properly
23:42 VanessaE           nephele:  in other words, everything should be rewritten to never use an actual node/item name, but a group name.
23:42 VanessaE           (in recipes et al.)
23:42 nephele            VanessaE, not neccesarily? that was an example
23:43 appguru            if using MTG mods as submodules, everything is fine
23:43 VanessaE           well that's the only way your "specification" is ever gonna work in reality.
23:43 nephele            No
23:43 nephele            Crafting groups are not neccesary
23:43 nephele            you could use aliases just aswel
23:43 GreenXenith        I dont want my games touch MTG with a 39.5-foot pole
23:43 appguru            I'm just sort of annoyed by games just copy & pasting MTG, which will end up with a buggy version in a few years as they don't pull in updates and often make custom modifications which result in merge conflicts if they try to...
23:43 GreenXenith        to touch*
23:43 VanessaE           nephele: and I suggested aliases ages ago.
23:44 appguru            There are some games which clearly shouldn't touch MTG
23:44 nephele            VanessaE, okay...?
23:44 nephele            still has nothing to do with a baseline spec
23:44 appguru            Such as my Cellestial Game (and a 2nd one in the planning)
23:44 VanessaE           except aliases won't work eithe, because they still have to reference a single, specific node.
23:44 VanessaE           +r
23:44 appguru            nephele: write your spec, publish it, and see if it's approved
23:44 nephele            Where is the problem in that?
23:44 nephele            appguru, aproved by whom?
23:44 appguru            the modding community which will have to use it
23:45 VanessaE           so your back to your spec and '"default:stone" should be etc etc' as sfan5 put it
23:45 appguru            I'd say go to MT Forum if that wasn't 500ing
23:45 appguru            Else you'll end up with builtin mechanisms which are unsupported, and eventually people will be rolling their own anyways
23:45 nephele            VanessaE, yeah the spec would say "awesome:stone stone used for $blah", and then i can implement it in a mod called awesome aliasing names to my gamemodes specific node names
23:45 appguru            (unsupported as in, modders dislike)
23:46 VanessaE           nephele: ok, and what of all the mods out there that DON'T use this new spec you're wanting?
23:46 nephele            what of them?
23:46 appguru            death
23:46 VanessaE           they're still incompatible with MC2?
23:46 nephele            yeah, so?
23:46 VanessaE           so again, you're asking mod authors to make changes just so their mods work with MC2
23:47 VanessaE           I mean literally, you're the only one asking for this
23:47 nephele            where did you read that?
23:47 appguru            I usually just go for MTG compat
23:47 VanessaE           for this spec*
23:47 appguru            mod authors will be afraid to change item names
23:47 VanessaE           [04-24 18:43] <nephele> mineclone2 does not implement the default mod
23:47 VanessaE           [04-24 18:44] <nephele> either the mobs mod shoudl explicitly support it, or a compat layer may be used (i don't know of any though...)
23:47 nephele            It's a tool for mod authors to target something that gives them a broad range of compatibility (within certain restrictions)
23:47 VanessaE           I read "it" as "MC2" in that comment.
23:48 appguru            nephele: are you suggesting we all go for MCL2 compat?
23:48 nephele            I think i am suggesting, that you fucking read my messages instead of making up bullshit
23:48 VanessaE           all right, that's enough of that.
23:48 nephele            VanessaE, that reffered to now anyhow, there is no spec
23:49 VanessaE           stand down, nephele
23:49 GreenXenith        I see no issue with rolling your own compat .. registering different recipes based on what mods are available is easy and viable
23:49 nephele            there is nothing for mineclone2 to implement, so either it implements default compat now, or one uses a compat layer
23:49 appguru            "shoudl explicitly support it", with it being MCL2, which is why my question
23:49 nephele            but again, i dont know of any compat layers
23:49 appguru            you could go and write one?
23:49 nephele            GreenXenith, the issue is still that it's extremely high effort to try and make a perfect mtg compat
23:50 nephele            a base spec would atleast give you a baseline
23:50 appguru            actually not
23:50 nephele            VanessaE, from where?
23:50 appguru            MTG compat is pretty easy
23:50 nephele            No it isn't
23:50 appguru            Item names of MTG are mostly straightforward
23:50 appguru            Same goes for the API
23:50 nephele            It's still a huge set
23:50 VanessaE           look, the bottom line is there are mods you obviously wish you could use under MC2, but which don't work with it.  Either the mods have to be rewritten to add MC2 compat, or to use some "common" spec such as you propose.
23:50 nephele            Which you would have to map in it's entirety to another gamemode
23:51 nephele            sure? but the common spec doesn't exist currently
23:51 VanessaE           or MC2 has to be altered to offer enough compatibility that those mods work.
23:51 GreenXenith        Provided you have similar materials in each game (which most a lot do), it should be fairly low-effort
23:51 VanessaE           and I can almost guarantee you that asking the rest of us to make out mods work on MC2 won't fly.
23:52 nephele            VanessaE, it's an optional tool
23:52 GreenXenith        (I think a compat layer mod seems like a reasonable idea ...)
23:52 nephele            if you care about it you can use it
23:52 VanessaE           I know I won't bother on my mods, I have WAY too much code to change to make that happen.
23:52 nephele            if you don't care, develop for mtg and be happy
23:52 LMD                Games are different, so having such a "baseline spec" is not easy, and in general achieving consensus among modders
23:53 nephele            Well, it's not going to be a "baseline for all gamemodes in minetest" think
23:53 GreenXenith        If a compat layer existed, modders should either use it and not care about what it decides to do, or make their own item maps
23:53 VanessaE           so the only thing that's gonna happen in reality is if you or some of your partners-in-code fork those desirable mods, alter them, and then maintain them as the originals continue to evolve
23:53 nephele            GreenXenith, Having a specification gives game authors much less overhead to implement
23:53 nephele            and gives you a pretty good thing to point at
23:53 VanessaE           so then again you're back to the "moving target" you complain of
23:53 nephele            VanessaE, no, why?
23:53 LMD                if this continues I'll probably write a spec & implement relevant compatibility mappings
23:53 nephele            I don't require mods to work on all gamemodes
23:54 nephele            and most won't
23:54 VanessaE           but clearly there are some you DO want
23:54 GreenXenith        a compat layer would be extremely easy to write .. in fact, you could leave out the implementation and make a mod dedicated to providing just item mapping data
23:54 nephele            Yes, my mods
23:54 nephele            I want to offer them to be used on other gamemodes aswell
23:55 LMD                The real solution is to have stuff like recipes not inside the code but instead inside of configuration files
23:55 VanessaE           yet you complained that mobs_redo doesn't work
23:55 nephele            No i dind't
23:55 LMD                Mods can and should provide decent default configurations, but if those don't suffice, users can extend them
23:55 nephele            That was in reference to an earlier comment
23:55 nephele            I don't plan to use mobs redo
23:55 nephele            and i don't playe mineclone2 either
23:55 VanessaE           correction, scott_ complained.
23:56 nephele            I only attempted to explain why it was incompatible and a possible mitigation for that moement
23:56 orbea              nephele: so you basically want something like the POSIX spec, but for minetest?
23:56 LMD                Someone should probably write a spec
23:56 nephele            the discussion about a possible baseline spec came after that and is mostly unrelated, except that it is about compatibility
23:56 VanessaE           no matter how you choose to "mitigate" this, nephele, SOMEONE will have to rewrite a bunch of mod code, even if it's only you
23:56 LMD                true
23:56 VanessaE           and if only you are gonna use i, what's the point of this spec
23:56 VanessaE           it*
23:57 nephele            so :) i can spend my time how i wish
23:57 nephele            A spec allows other people to be compatibile without having to dig around in my code
23:57 LMD                the point of the spec would be that modders don't invent item names and groups as they wish, but instead use common groups & names specified in the spec
23:57 VanessaE           you know full well no one who maintains a big project is gonna bother with that.
23:57 nephele            it's way easier to read a doc outlining the expectations than trying to be compatible by copying implemnetations or even implemnetation bugs
23:58 GreenXenith        If you had an item map, you could automate rewriting >.>
23:58 nephele            No, that is your assumption
23:59 LMD                I suggest advanced alias methods
23:59 VanessaE           and it has a high probability of being right :P
23:59 nephele            No, that is your assumption :P
23:59 LMD                for example registering alias groups