Time  Nick           Message
03:47 ANAND          Greetings! How does listring actually work? Can I "connect" (for the lack of a better word) more than two lists using listring?
04:06 Ruslan1        ANAND: have you play blocky survival
04:09 ANAND          no I haven't
04:10 Ruslan1        Can you join it
04:10 ANAND          Right now, I can't. I'm busy with my exams :)
04:36 happysmash27   Hello, my account at vmail.me doesn't seem to be recieving the activation email?
04:37 happysmash27   I actually stopped using that email quite a while ago because it closed down, but it appears that the recieving of email still works, at least for some things.
04:37 ANAND          Hello happysmash27, have you also checked your spam / junk folder?
04:37 happysmash27   The problem is that I appeared to have attempted to make an account there a while ago, and now I am trying to log in.
04:38 happysmash27   I'll try, but usually nothing gets there.
04:38 happysmash27   Yes, still absolutely nothing.
04:39 ANAND          Did you try re-sending the activation email?
04:39 happysmash27   I'll try sending an email from my new email address just to make sure that vmail hasn't shut down completely.
04:39 happysmash27   Yes, I did.
04:40 happysmash27   Okay, it's actually not getting my new email either :/
04:41 happysmash27   I'm going to try restarting the backend of my email client.
04:52 happysmash27   Oh, lol, my mailbox is full. That explains it.
04:52 ANAND          ;)
04:59 happysmash27   Hey, now *my* emails are coming in! Now I just have to make sure that those of minetest.net work.
04:59 happysmash27   Oh, it does. I wonder why it didn't work before...
05:02 happysmash27   Ah, finally, it works. I don't know why it didn't before... Anyway, thanks, and bye!
05:03 ANAND          Good luck
05:59 ANAND          I'm seem to have understood more about listring, but I still can't understand why I'm unable to shift-click items from one list to another...
05:59 ANAND          I've also figured out that having three listring elements in the same formspec is a bad idea.. :P
06:05 ANAND          I end up being able to shift-click between the second and third list only
08:28 andirc8000     with signs_lib can I put a sign flat on the ground and have something written on it?  (e.g. hollywood walk of fame - style) (b/c w/signs_lib mod loaded when I put a 'metal sign' on the ground, the writing on it doesn't seem to appear)
09:20 VanessaE       andirc8000: that is not supported in signs_libn
09:20 VanessaE       -n
11:26 andirc8000     VanessaE: Why the difference: https://imgur.com/a/q3wqtHZ?
11:26 andirc8000     is it by design?
11:31 entuland       andirc8000, I know you're asking her but I'm not sure I get your question... you mean why one gets placed vertically (the wooden one) and the other horizontally (stone / steel one perhaps?)
11:32 andirc8000     entuland: why 'ABCD 1' displays on the pole sign but doesn't display on the 'laying sign' ('ABCD 1' it's written on both of them)
11:32 entuland       uhm
11:33 entuland       look on the left, it seems to be displaced
11:33 entuland       near the tree
11:33 entuland       or is that a caption that is meant to be there?
11:34 entuland       yep, probably the thingie that appears when you point at something
11:34 andirc8000     entuland: yeah that is the description that only appears when I 'point to the sign' though the 'pole sign' 's description appears always regardless whether I pointed to it or not
11:34 entuland       I see
11:34 entuland       now I get the point :)
11:53 VanessaE       andirc8000: because the text is displayed using an entity, and they can only yaw, then cannot pitch up/down.
11:54 VanessaE       it would be a somewhat trivial change to create an entity for a sign laying down, but I leave that stuff up to kaeza.
11:54 VanessaE       (it's more his mod than mine)
11:58 VanessaE       now as for the sign becoming a sign on a thin post, that IS by design.  you can put a wooden sign on a wall and then screwdriver it to put it on the ground if you want, but it won't display text in that orientation.
11:59 VanessaE       (similar with the hanging-from-ceiling wooden sign vs a flat sign on the ceiling)
13:47 Jolla_Sailfish hi
13:57 Sailor2691     hi
13:58 Sailor2691     hi minetest sam
16:25 Wuzzy2         Fixer: hi
16:26 Wuzzy2         i think redstone was in 1.0 too
16:26 Fixer          Wuzzy2: redstone was since alpha
16:26 Fixer          Wuzzy2: but more things added since
16:26 Fixer          Wuzzy2: like pistons/sticky pistons/hoppers/redstone update
16:27 Wuzzy2         its not really the redstone which is so special imo. its more bout mechanics
16:27 Wuzzy2         actually i think some redstone mechanics are just lame. like no vertical redstone. DAFUQ?
16:27 Wuzzy2         maybe i will add something like that, just because
16:28 Wuzzy2         and i think mesecons does some things right which redstone does wrong
16:28 Wuzzy2         anyway, i dont like obsession about mtg only because its default. that has never helped.
16:29 Wuzzy2         Fixer, it completely agree its a complete nightmere getting anything accepted in MTG
16:29 Fixer          Wuzzy2: or emulate redstone fully like in MC
16:29 Wuzzy2         and if somethign is accepted its really baby steps
16:29 Wuzzy2         anything major and its pretty much impossible, unless yuo're a core dev. wait, not even then...
16:30 Wuzzy2         i dont think you need to emulate redstone / mesecons to make a nice game.
16:31 Wuzzy2         its simply a different focus. e.g. if you have a strong survival focus in the game, complicated mechanisms might be even counter-productive to the flow of the game
16:31 Wuzzy2         ^ mechanisms = redstone = mesecons
16:37 Fixer          Wuzzy2: i agree, but then it is not a clone
16:37 Wuzzy2         i was talking about games in general, not MCL2
16:38 Wuzzy2         well i have given up on creating a 100% perfect clone long ago anyway. that's not really desirable anyway
16:38 Wuzzy2         the current philosohpy is more like “clone as good i reasonably can, given the Minetest engine”
16:38 Wuzzy2         and “ignore arbitrary technical restrictions” (like height limit)
16:39 Fixer          Wuzzy2: my impression is: minetest had such success due to celeron55 initial hard work to make it useable/playable during hype times of mc beta
16:39 Wuzzy2         so?
16:39 Fixer          Wuzzy2: however, I feel some game aspects deserved more attention during his era (usual example is carts)
16:40 Fixer          Wuzzy2: continuing that MTG part ^^
16:40 Wuzzy2         mtg is not a faithful clone and never will be
16:40 Fixer          agreed
16:40 Wuzzy2         carts are even in mtg now, what's your point?
16:40 Wuzzy2         carts in mcl2 arent that great currently
16:40 Fixer          you missed my point, I wanted to finish my MTG disc part from -dev
16:41 Wuzzy2         rails are really WTF in Minecraft...
16:41 Wuzzy2         oh
16:41 Fixer          Wuzzy2: but I have hopes for MCL2
16:41 Fixer          it is hard to move away people from MTG to new games
16:42 Fixer          heck, you can't move people out of that v6 mapgen
16:42 Wuzzy2         thats not a problem, mcl2 also supports v6 perfectly and i will continue to support it because why not? its low hanging fruit
16:43 Wuzzy2         Fixer, maybe this problem will disappear when Content DB goes live
16:43 Wuzzy2         i mean *seriously* goes live
16:43 Wuzzy2         not just homepage
16:44 Wuzzy2         but its strange the game feature is not used more
16:44 Wuzzy2         games are WAY easier to install than mods. you don have dependency hell
16:44 Wuzzy2         games just work (TM)
16:44 Fixer          btw, it seems minetest 0.5.0 release is syncronized with CDDA 0.D release :}
16:45 Wuzzy2         wow do you have a magic crystal ball and can predict release dates? i am impressed
16:45 Fixer          yeah, those releases are all too late
16:47 Wuzzy2         missing game adoption is also probably failure of marketing
16:47 Wuzzy2         homepage still sucks, newbiews are doomed to think Minetest = Minetest Game
16:47 Wuzzy2         or that Minetest Game is the only game
16:47 Wuzzy2         all screenshots on minetest.net are minetest game-only. terrible marketing
16:48 Fixer          newbies compare it with minecraft
16:48 Fixer          I also did
16:48 sfan5          since minetest game sucks so much, surely there's a game that's a thousand times better?
16:48 Fixer          in 2011 I had mc beta 1.5 and minetest 0.2.2011, both kinda worked, but minetest was FOSS and religion got in a way, you know the drill
16:49 Fixer          i already seen rails in 2011, so wth, went with minetest
16:49 Wuzzy2         sfan5, a lot fo things suck, some things just suck less :)
16:49 Fixer          meanwhile, proper carts arrived 6 years later
16:49 Wuzzy2         anyway, comparing with MTG, yes, there are many games beating it
16:49 Wuzzy2         i would say "Inside The Box" but this does not count
16:49 Wuzzy2         as its only a server
16:49 sfan5          can you name those "many games"?
16:50 sfan5          are they ready for inclusion within releases?
16:50 sfan5          if not, then stop whining about it
16:50 Wuzzy2         Pixture was also nice in older versions, if it weren't for the fact the crafting has been pointlessly ruined
16:50 Wuzzy2         rpgtest is nice, but needs a bit of polishing
16:50 Fixer          sfan5: everyone just uses MTG + mods to make it minecraft like, like it is a big secret :D
16:51 sfan5          also
16:51 sfan5          >it has no vision, no project goal (these are the biggest problems), is neither good or polished, or balaneced, gets boring way befroe the 6 hour mark, and if development is baby steps
16:51 Fixer          and "minecraft beta 1.7.3 released" sign on minetest world in 2011 also is very suggestive
16:51 Wuzzy2         i would say mineclone 2 is in a playable state since a long time and easily beeds mtg hands down, but also needs polishing and bugfixnig
16:51 Wuzzy2         beats*
16:51 sfan5          do the games you just mentioned satisfy all of those points?
16:51 Fixer          Wuzzy2: only part I dislike is name of MCL2
16:52 Wuzzy2         basically, to beat mtg you only need to do one thing: include a crafting guide
16:52 Wuzzy2         that single feature already beats mtg by a factor of 1000000
16:52 sfan5          lmao
16:52 Wuzzy2         :)
16:52 Wuzzy2         seriously i dont get it. why does mtg still not have a crafting guide?
16:52 Fixer          sfan5: default MCL offers way more than default Minetest, I guess
16:52 sfan5          you hold mtg to extensive standard, but then you say "oh just include this one thing and it will be better"
16:53 Wuzzy2         this was just toungue in cheek
16:53 Wuzzy2         but i also like to stress how freaking important a craft guide is. also, pretty much every game has one, mtg is the odd one
16:53 sfan5          can you name a single game with a vision, project goal, that is good, polished, balanced and doesn't get boring after 6 hours?
16:53 Fixer          what MTG offers? blocks, simple farming and tools, you can start building a house and a farm, game finished :D
16:53 sfan5          can you?
16:54 Wuzzy2         Pixture, BEFORE crafting was broken
16:54 Fixer          and ofc it has rails, this is serious point btw, you can at least be busy and constract damn railroad
16:54 sfan5          last updated 2017, meh
16:54 Wuzzy2         sfan5: active development was not one of the criteria =)
16:55 sfan5          it was actually, I did not copy-paste that part
16:55 sfan5          18<Wuzzy218> [off] mtg does not deserve to be default. it has no vision, [...] and if development is baby steps
16:55 sfan5          either way, since there is no "better" game than mtg, you are just pointlessly whining about it
16:55 Wuzzy2         sfan5, even if there isn't such a game, that would not invalidate my criticism
16:55 sfan5          of course not
16:55 Fixer          some may say minecraft can be boring, if you are a simple folk - yes, but if you are a redstone/farming/contraption guy - it is immense
16:55 Wuzzy2         also, there really are better games... gosh
16:55 sfan5          but you keep saying how mtg sucks as if there was something better
16:56 sfan5          but there is nothing better ready to be included with releases
16:56 Wuzzy2         Inside The Box... except its not downloadable *cries heavily*
16:56 sfan5          i am specifically referring to the "mtg does not deserve to be default" point
16:56 Fixer          Wuzzy2: Work harder, soldier! So they can include!
16:56 sfan5          it does not deserve to be default, then what does?
16:56 sfan5          that's right nothing does
16:56 sfan5          because all other games suck too
16:56 Fixer          rough citation from BF1942
16:56 Wuzzy2         they suck less :)
16:56 sfan5          see above
16:57 Wuzzy2         lord of the test ... maybe?
16:57 VanessaE       make dreambuilder the default ;)
16:57 Fixer          Tutorial game by Wuzzy
16:57 Fixer          VanessaE: nooOOOOOOOOOO OOM
16:57 VanessaE       haha
16:57 Wuzzy2         i think many games fail in one crucial aspect which is polishing
16:57 Wuzzy2         mineclone 2 included
16:58 Wuzzy2         sfan5, TBH I think Pixture would be an excellent choice for default, only the crafting system needs to be repaired
16:58 Wuzzy2         i mean gameplay-wise
16:58 Fixer          what is worrying me is whole MTG, look at the tools, they give you pretty uneasy feel, pokerfeel, then look at new ores added, dilemmas everywhere
16:58 Wuzzy2         its relatively simple (maybe even simpler than  MTG) but gets atmosphere very well right
16:58 sfan5          LOTT looks pretty good, what is the authors opinion on including it in MT?
16:59 Wuzzy2         idk
16:59 Wuzzy2         LOTT had one major game-breaker the last time i looked at it which is potions
16:59 sfan5          Wuzzy2: can't comment on that, but the fact that pixture has not reached 1.0 and the releases are marked "pre-release" on github kinda of makes it unripe for inclusion
16:59 Fixer          sfan5: i hope it is not trully Tolkien related, Tolkien related stuff is very DMCA abused, warned you
16:59 Wuzzy2         if you drink more than 2 potions than the status effects go completely crazy
16:59 Fixer          everything tolkien related is no go
16:59 Fixer          even obscure roguelikes got DMCA for that
16:59 Raven262       Fixer is right, LOTT doesn't want to attract attention this way.
16:59 sfan5          also regarding being the default: I doubt the dev team would agree to make anything other than MTG the default
17:00 Wuzzy2         that does not meant you cant have things like elves or orks
17:00 Fixer          Wuzzy2: yeah, you can, just rebrand it
17:00 Wuzzy2         i believe DMCA complaints can be dropped into the trashbin if you do not live in US
17:00 Fixer          Tolkien guys are very serious about intellectual rights
17:00 Wuzzy2         yes, but even they have limited power
17:01 Wuzzy2         its important to know the scope of copyright
17:01 Fixer          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_Estate
17:01 sfan5          Wuzzy2: legally, yes; effectively, no
17:01 Wuzzy2         it is dangerous to rather not even try to release something because you are confused about copyright. know your rights
17:01 Wuzzy2         sfan5, this.
17:02 sfan5          wanting to ignore dmca would mean your game/software/whatever can not have any presence on anything related to an US company
17:02 Fixer          TOME was DMCA by them, development was halted
17:02 Fixer          and guy was from italy or smth
17:02 Wuzzy2         that does not mean it was legit
17:03 Wuzzy2         this self-censorship is a dangerous attitude which only helps the powerful
17:03 Wuzzy2         at least dont try to be holier than the pope
17:03 Wuzzy2         thats all im saying
17:04 Wuzzy2         also its not copyright infringement if you just include orks as characters. this is too generic
17:04 Wuzzy2         the fact that development was halted is no evidence that dmca was legit. maybe developer was just too scared
17:05 Wuzzy2         what is your opinion on Pixture as default game (if crafting gets repaired)?
17:05 Wuzzy2         i think it would be a great choice for the following reasons:
17:05 Wuzzy2         - very simple, so easy to jump into for n00bs
17:05 Wuzzy2         - does not get boring to quickly
17:05 Wuzzy2         - rewards exploring the map
17:06 Fixer          not sure, but more history is probably here http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2012/01/episode-19-interview-with-darkgod.html
17:06 Wuzzy2         - great cute atmosphere, i dont think many other games for minetest manage to do that
17:07 Wuzzy2         - everything is really low-tech, you dont get like ultra diamond pickaxe in 6 minutes of gameplay
17:07 Wuzzy2         pixture could see some expansions in depth, but i think it does a lot of things right in the CORE gameplay
17:08 Fixer          i'm pretty sure I've listened to some discussion about tolkien works and legalities
17:09 Wuzzy2         biggest reason for pixture as default: it leaves a good first impression and can be easily picked up by anyone, great to get to know minetset in general as well
17:10 Fixer          found it, it is here http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2012/01/episode-18-tome4.html
17:10 Wuzzy2         maybe maybe i will just pick up pixture one day, even the only change is to repair crafting
17:10 Fixer          "- IP violation, and DarkGod's change from Pern to Tolkien to an original setting"
17:10 Wuzzy2         sfan5, ah you probably mean something like a drop-in replacement to minetest game?
17:10 sfan5          what are you referring to?
17:10 Fixer          connebts section is useful
17:10 Fixer          referring to LOTT
17:11 Wuzzy2         > Also cease and desist letters are just threats. Nearly always empty threats. They are scary as hell. But they are just a threat. They are not actually the instigation of any sort of civil litigation. Actual instigation of proceedings requires a lot of money and time.
17:11 Wuzzy2         quoted for emphasis
17:13 Fixer          yeah, i'm not sure where LOTT developers live, what jurisdiction, etc, they may send DMCA to github and finish it
17:14 Wuzzy2         maybe... Farlands would also be alternative, looks very mature, but i havent played it long enough to give a clear recommend
17:14 Wuzzy2         also sfan5, what games did you play (for MT)?
17:14 sfan5          barely any
17:15 Shara          Just to drop it in here: I'd be dead against LOTT or Mineclone being made official simply due to the associations. (sorry wuzzy - actually have a lot of respect for how much work you seem to have done on mineclone, but just... no)
17:16 Shara          Biggest issue for most of the games I saw, even those that looked like they have some real potential, is they don't really seem to have teams behind them, so if they become official and then the one or two people involved stops, who maintains the things?
17:17 Shara          Last time I looked at Farlands, one of the two main devs already quit working on it.
17:17 Wuzzy2         Shara, i can understand you're against MCL2. i am very aware it does not really fit into minetest's vision. i would also not have really pushed MCL2 as default
17:18 Wuzzy2         Shara, welllllll. minetest game deveopment is also not really promising to be honest.
17:18 Shara          I'm working on a game myself. Won't make it public unless it reaches a certain point, but may push for that to be some kind of official if it does.
17:18 Wuzzy2         i mean one commit per week/month?
17:18 Wuzzy2         woah
17:18 Shara          Since I do have a team that I hope will prove large enough to keep it going.
17:18 Wuzzy2         sneaky sneaky
17:18 Shara          Always :)
17:19 Wuzzy2         what genre will it be?
17:19 Shara          And I agree with you about MTG, for what it's worth. But I disagree with slamming it or giving up on it like some want as well.
17:19 Shara          Focus is on producing something that can stand as a complete survival game that is enjoyable without needing lot sof mods.
17:20 Shara          Laregly being built from scratch with very little reuse of existing mods.
17:20 Wuzzy2         i do not propose to drop mtg completely, i dont mind if anyone spends time in it. but i DO propose that it needs to lose status as default game eventually, when theres alternatives
17:20 Wuzzy2         Shara, i wouldnt mind if it WOULD re-use mods, however. what coutns is the end result
17:20 Shara          A lot of what I add to MTG (or talk paramat into adding, since he has more time than me :P) are actually results of things I've done in the game I'm making
17:20 Wuzzy2         what's your opinion on Pixture?
17:21 Shara          Haven't looked at it in enough depth to say.
17:21 Shara          If you want me to take a serious look at it, send me a PM any time after this weekend.
17:21 Wuzzy2         my point is that its great game for beginners because of simplicity
17:21 Wuzzy2         do note in its currrent form, it is un-includable.
17:22 Wuzzy2         the crafting system has been pointlessly broken
17:22 Shara          Ahh
17:22 Wuzzy2         i mean made painfully unusable
17:22 Wuzzy2         it technically works but its a revised crafting system which is so annoying to use
17:22 Shara          Well, the crafting system in my game is .. not so much broken as under development I guess.
17:22 Wuzzy2         would have been easier to just stick to MT default XD
17:22 Shara          I'm not. So bored of crafting grid :D
17:23 Wuzzy2         well if it is faster to use than craftgrdi then im all in
17:23 Shara          We're using rubenwardy's crafting mod for it.
17:23 Wuzzy2         basically pixture crafting was an interesting experiment as first, but at the end its clear its even worse than crafting grid
17:24 Wuzzy2         sad that onle one kind of crafting system is engine-supported, while the rest must be built by hand
17:25 Wuzzy2         Shara, best indicator to measure crafting system is probably number of clicks
17:25 Shara          I never really liked crafting grid style crafting.
17:25 Wuzzy2         or if you need ANY cognitive load
17:25 paramat        yes we can't include LOTT obviously
17:25 Wuzzy2         me neither. but look at Pixture and you learn how to make it even worse :)
17:26 Shara          We're also aiming for a system where you don't have all the recipes to begin, and gradually unlock them
17:26 Wuzzy2         yes, crafting grid has lot of problems, this is just an oddity inherited from minecraft, for no good reason
17:26 Shara          So hopefully it should ease players in a bit
17:26 Wuzzy2         i agree this is also very important
17:26 paramat        pixture may have good aspects but i doubt the code quality and stability is remotely as good as MTG
17:26 Wuzzy2         newbies need to know where to start instead of searching 1000 pages
17:27 lumidify       We're planning on completely revamping the LOTT crafting system, btw, but of course that doesn't fix DMCA stuff...
17:27 Wuzzy2         i dont know how the TOME4 story ended, however
17:27 Shara          Wuzzy2: exactly, and especially since I'd like to build up toward a fair amount of content (complete game rather than modding base), it's good to limit what shows up when you first open the menu
17:27 Wuzzy2         someone care to summarize?
17:28 Wuzzy2         i mean was the dmca legit in any way?
17:28 Wuzzy2         this is very important, a lot of copyright complaints are baseless.
17:28 paramat        sfan is correct essentially, so far no other games are good enough to be bundled, even if more interesting in some ways
17:28 paramat        and ITB isn't a game, it's a server
17:29 Wuzzy2         what are the minimal criteria?
17:29 Wuzzy2         paramat, i know *cries heavily*
17:29 * Wuzzy2       looks at sofar
17:29 Wuzzy2         paramat, i mean what are absolute must-have features a  game must have to deserve to be default?
17:30 Shara          Wuzzy2: whatever paramat says plus probably at least one more thing per dev who gets asked, I'd guess :)
17:30 paramat        meh too difficult to summarise :)
17:31 Shara          But I'd say a good team is important, no matter what, because maintenance is a real thing
17:31 Wuzzy2         i have the feeling minetest game gets a free pass far too easily and criticism is waved away, On the other hand, I suspect that contenders must be basically perfect in every aspect to be even considered
17:31 Shara          Wuzzy2: I basically joined the MTG team by criticising it lots :)
17:32 Shara          It doesn't get a free pass in my eyes. It needs to be better and to do more.
17:33 Wuzzy2         i think if mtg would at least have a shared meaningful (!) vision that would already help a lot.
17:33 Wuzzy2         currently minetest game is more like a melting pot. ideas drop in whoever has time to implement them
17:33 Wuzzy2         that kind of development doesnt make good games :)
17:34 Wuzzy2         deep concept discussions are foreign in mtg development
17:34 Shara          Yes, which I find a pity
17:34 Shara          And ultimately it's a big part of why I started working on my own game.
17:35 Wuzzy2         with free pass i mean it reigns as king (default) over Minetest country, other games are degraded to servants :D
17:35 Shara          What we need is people forming actual real teams to make serious games.
17:35 Wuzzy2         i do agree with the maintenance aspect, but ironically, minetest game is close to only life support either
17:36 Shara          But what I see people focusing on are things like LOTR and MC copies, and that is pretty depressing in a way.
17:36 Shara          Because the real skill is going into games that can't be used officially due to those associations.
17:37 Wuzzy2         is maintenance such a huge aspect anyway? if maintenance just means "prevent from breaking it in future minetest versions" and you only need to be in sync with minetest development, then this could be done with very little work
17:37 Wuzzy2         because minetest releases are rare
17:37 paramat        one thing i agree, MTG needs to not be seen as 'the' game (so needs a name change, working on it)
17:37 Shara          Maybe. But I'd be against stopping anything new being added to MTG anyway.
17:37 Wuzzy2         hell, even 0.5.0 doesn't break too many things.
17:38 Wuzzy2         i dont caee about new features in mtg, but i am not opposed
17:38 Wuzzy2         i think mtg is also advertisement fail
17:38 Wuzzy2         a big problem is that is not n00b friendly.
17:39 Wuzzy2         so already fails as a default (read: the game that n00bs see first)
17:39 Wuzzy2         so a good default game must be considerate to n00bs, i think this is an important design goal
17:39 Wuzzy2         simply to lower the barrier of entry into the World of Minetest :D
17:39 Shara          Well, I'm anti-tutorial, so you probably won't like any of my thoughts in that area
17:39 paramat        MTG actually has very high standards, higher than almost any game, but it's just a sandbox, don't expect excitement
17:40 Wuzzy2         i'm not saying full-blown tutorial but *some* form of introduction should be added
17:40 Shara          Personally I think a good game should integrate it's own learning directly into it
17:40 Wuzzy2         a more light-weight learning approach would also help. i like the approach of tutor mod
17:40 Shara          But the question is how far you need to go to also not bore to death more capable players
17:41 Wuzzy2         of course this feature must disable itself when its no longer needed
17:41 Wuzzy2         this is a no-brainer
17:41 paramat        MTG development is very high quality and carefully considered, stuff isn't thrown in, people complain it's hard to get anything in :)
17:41 Shara          paramat: it is hard :)
17:41 Shara          That's not as bad as people make out though
17:41 Wuzzy2         it is
17:41 cimbakahn      Hello Everyone!
17:41 Shara          I'd say the issue is really  alack of discussion a lot of the time
17:41 Wuzzy2         even the simplest feature can take weeks to review
17:42 Wuzzy2         it really gets to absurd lengths
17:42 cimbakahn      Is anyone here running Linux?
17:42 Wuzzy2         every single letter is "reviewed", yet mtg still sucks, mostly
17:42 Shara          Wuzzy2: yea, on that I agree. I've tried to review things quickly, but I like to test properly, and at the moment I have very little time
17:42 longerstaff13  hi
17:42 paramat        MTG does have vision and direction, it's just not written down anywhere (because that's impossible), or rather, it exists in the dev discussions we have
17:43 Wuzzy2         then explain me that vision please
17:43 Wuzzy2         i am DYING to know the official vision and direcion of MTG. i really do
17:43 cimbakahn      Typing in terminal 'pcmanfm %U'  Is this the correct output ----> /home/user/%U: No such file or directory
17:43 sfan5          cimbakahn: yes
17:44 paramat        MTG is very well maintained, better than almost any other game
17:44 cimbakahn      sfan5, Thank you dear!
17:44 Wuzzy2         i still dont know the vision, however
17:45 paramat        people complain MTG is too easy, it's hardly tough on noobs, no mobs, no dangers
17:46 Wuzzy2         yes. you can completely forget survial gameplay in mtg
17:46 Wuzzy2         if you only consider Creative Mode, MTG actually does well
17:46 Wuzzy2         or if you install 1 million mods, MTG might also become an acceptable game, or even a good one
17:47 Wuzzy2         but as soon you look into vanilla survival gameplay, its... really bad
17:47 Wuzzy2         it just feels incomplete
17:47 Wuzzy2         i mean... its really the small things which should be obvious
17:47 Wuzzy2         it took years for the mese axe bug to be fixed. the priorities are all messed up
17:48 cimbakahn      I am on a different operating system and are having problems with my speech to text in the browser.  Now i know the results of that command has nothing to do with it, and i'm pretty sure the problem isn't with the browser......
17:48 Wuzzy2         or that food insta heals you...
17:48 paramat        the 'vision' can't be explained as i said, just follow dev discussion closely, that's the vision
17:48 Wuzzy2         paramat, that soudns a lot of my "melting pot" theory earlier
17:48 paramat        no
17:48 Wuzzy2         everyone just has random ideas and throws it into a melting pot and whoever has time gets ti implement it
17:49 cimbakahn      When i activate it the mic blinks on and off in the panel.
17:49 cimbakahn      I could be missing a package.
17:49 paramat        as said before, MTG gameplay is not great, but other games 'suck' more (not for long though)
17:50 paramat        too much focus on MTG, go make a better game, it's what we need
17:50 Wuzzy2         define "suck"
17:50 Wuzzy2         does MCL2 suck according to your definition?
17:50 Wuzzy2         does Pixture suck?
17:51 Wuzzy2         ITB? rpgtest? LOTT? Legend of Minetest?
17:51 paramat        'suck' was your word, i don't like it either
17:52 Wuzzy2         ...
17:52 LevierMRQ      i beg my pardon?
17:52 Wuzzy2         then dont say other games suck more :/
17:52 Wuzzy2         unless you have a specific game in mind
17:52 Wuzzy2         or two
17:53 Wuzzy2         paramat, i think MTG is mostly advertisement fail. biggest strength is probably moddability
17:53 Wuzzy2         yet MTG is served as default to complete n00bs
17:53 Wuzzy2         n00bs get bored, leave MT forever
17:53 Wuzzy2         if you are a server operator and install mods, then MTG is actually pretty useful
17:54 LevierMRQ      looks like diplomacy to date.
17:54 Shara          Wuzzy2: let's not forget that content db will make other games much easier to access for players from 0.5
17:54 Wuzzy2         minetest game should be more advertised to server owners instead of normal players. at least in its current form
17:54 paramat        i do think that to get the quality, core devs will have to work on new games, can't completely leave it to contributors. i feel like working on new games
17:54 Wuzzy2         Shara, yes, yes
17:54 Wuzzy2         thats a very good point
17:54 LevierMRQ      We are welcome in #minetest because they suppose we wont use it against
17:55 Wuzzy2         then maybe minetest game will become much less important
17:55 Wuzzy2         ok not *much* less
17:55 Shara          Hard to know how it will work out.
17:55 Wuzzy2         but at least other games will become accessible. this will be a major reason to party hard :)
17:55 Wuzzy2         i think it will be awesome
17:55 paramat        :) well i used the word 'suck' to make a point in response to you saying MTG 'sucks'
17:55 Wuzzy2         if bug-free, of course
17:56 Shara          I really do want to see more official games. But does that mean we get to the point of bundling multiple games? There are also questions around how it would work.
17:56 Wuzzy2         because you can install pretty much every game every made with a few mouse clicks
17:56 LevierMRQ      i believe you must have suggestions.
17:56 Shara          If someone presents a really great game tomorrow, but it's some GB in size... clearly there would be people complaining about size. And so on.
17:57 Wuzzy2         what does it meant to be "official game", however? only engine devs allowed?
17:57 paramat        and yeah, a new game to impress is needed, MTG is just a nice sandbox / mod base
17:57 Shara          Wuzzy2: I'm not an engine dev, so that wouldn't make sense :)
17:58 Wuzzy2         i also recognize that mtg is slowly improving over the years. just the pace of development is reaaaaallllllyyyyy slooooooowww. i can hear the grass grow.
17:58 paramat        a bundled game can be made by anyone
17:58 Shara          Either way, what's needed is serious teams that stick together long enough to make actually good games... which aren't based on existing things. Some originality...
17:58 Wuzzy2         a bundled game approved by paramet? IMPOSSIBLE!!!1 XD
17:59 Shara          LOTT, MC2, Legend of Minetest is another you mentioned... they are all based on other things.
17:59 Wuzzy2         why the insistence on originality? mtg is hardly original. gameplay is much more important, then un-originality matters less
18:00 Shara          Because this isn't Tolkien-Voxel, or Pretend-It's-Not-Legend-Of-Zelda.
18:00 Wuzzy2         lott and MoT... well only for the general theme
18:00 Wuzzy2         which could be replaced if you really want to
18:01 Shara          I have tried LOTT... what it is is very obvious
18:01 Shara          Which is MoT?
18:01 Wuzzy2         Megend of Tinemest
18:01 Wuzzy2         Oops
18:01 Shara          :D
18:01 Wuzzy2         i got that wrong
18:01 Shara          I've seen screenshots... come on, it copies Zelda games completely in every way it can.
18:03 Wuzzy2         whats the problem
18:03 Shara          If you can't see it, I really don't know how to explain it to you.
18:04 Wuzzy2         why, does it copy images 1:1? it doesnt seem so
18:05 Shara          So you are in MT to play imitations of other games?
18:05 Wuzzy2         ...
18:05 Shara          Is that all MT should be, and officially?
18:06 Wuzzy2         ok LoM clearny cannot be official with that i agree
18:06 Wuzzy2         or anyother "clony" games
18:06 Wuzzy2         but i am against a complete rejection out of principle, this feels wrong
18:06 Shara          A game does not need to be unique in terms of themes or content to be good, but it shouldnt imitate such well known things.
18:07 Shara          I'm also okay with something being inspired by another thing.
18:07 Shara          But when the aim seems to be all out copying...
18:07 Wuzzy2         LoM is still not really comparable to LoZ, gameplay-wise
18:07 Wuzzy2         it cant be, LoM is still very sandboxey
18:07 Shara          Then maybe if the appearance was adjusted it would be fine.
18:08 Shara          But whetyher the author wanted to do that would be another thing
18:08 Shara          whether*
18:08 Wuzzy2         well so if LoM would do a  simple graphics change it would be fine?
18:09 Shara          Without spending time seriously looking at it, I can't say.
18:09 Wuzzy2         sorry, i have to disagree with your hard opposition to imitation. its like you're saying "some designs are taboo, if they happen to be used by one major title"
18:10 Shara          Well, pretty sure there'd be the small issue of copyright... so yes, some designs are
18:10 Wuzzy2         oh well, why do i care? if you dont like these games, just dont play them :)
18:10 Wuzzy2         well copyright has limits too
18:10 Shara          It's not the games I dislike. I just don't consider them suitable as official games.
18:10 Wuzzy2         yeah i agree fully with that
18:11 Wuzzy2         it does not fit into the vision of minetest
18:11 Wuzzy2         for minetest i would go with something more original as default
18:11 Shara          Exactly
18:11 Wuzzy2         i would not push MCL2 for official inclusion either, that was also never the plan
18:11 Wuzzy2         I do MCL2 mostly for teh lulz
18:11 paramat        people need to change their expectations of MTG, it's not a 'game' and doesn't pretend to be, it's a sandbox, although we are slowly making it a little more gamelike and will continue to
18:12 Shara          paramat: It needs to become a game :)
18:12 Wuzzy2         any maybe, just maybe MCL2 will be completed one day... and even be enjoyable?
18:12 Wuzzy2         paramat, you cant blame people for expecting high standards from mtg. its the DEFAULT
18:13 Shara          It has high standards, just not the level of content that people expect
18:13 Wuzzy2         its not even about depth (i dislike the word "content")
18:13 Shara          You are welcome to dislike it, but it's accurate here :P
18:13 Wuzzy2         Pixture has pretty low depth but i think it does many things right
18:14 paramat        Wuzzy2 MTG is the default because nothing else is overall good enough to bundle, that's not our fault :)
18:14 Wuzzy2         atmosphere is also a crucial aspect
18:14 Wuzzy2         something of which minetest is not a great help at all
18:14 Wuzzy2         you stil have to do all atmosphere by hand (i.e. mods) and its usually slow and bad as hell
18:15 Wuzzy2         i mean simple things like environmental sounds. a lot of games (not just MTG) are silent 90% of the time
18:15 Shara          Wuzzy2: all I can say is - make a real team that is serious about producing an original game. If that happens, I will support it however I can and even help with it (time permiting) if I can
18:15 paramat        Shara yes, the high expectations of MTG are of gameplay. it's easy to not notice high quality code, stability and good maintenance
18:16 Shara          Alternatively, I'll probably need more help with mine soon enough.
18:16 Shara          paramat: Yes, very true. Devs and players see different things. It's why i always try to keep playing a little
18:16 Shara          You can't see what the other side is saying or why, if you don't do that
18:17 Wuzzy2         i think any game i'll ever make will be simple too niche to be ever even considered official :D
18:18 paramat        env sounds are difficult, engine work is needed, for that we need coders and reviewers, again not our fault
18:18 Wuzzy2         paramat, it's easy to maintain a minimalist game, true :)
18:18 Wuzzy2         so thats the reason why major features are almost always rejected? fear of maintenance overhead?
18:18 Shara          Sound is massively important.
18:19 Wuzzy2         yes env sounds are difficult but uber important
18:19 Wuzzy2         and i am not blaming anyone
18:19 Shara          I'll admit I still have no clue what to do about sounds.
18:19 Wuzzy2         well maybe one could start with small steps
18:19 Shara          And it makes me pretty unhappy.
18:19 Wuzzy2         one simple idea i had floating in my head was node-centered sounds
18:19 Wuzzy2         i mean sounds that generate from certain node types
18:20 Wuzzy2         one example is fire
18:20 Wuzzy2         maybe could generalize the MTG code for that into the engine
18:20 Wuzzy2         this really needs to be generalized for stuff like waterfalls, ocean water, lava pits, furnaces burning, and other "sound-emitting nodes"
18:20 Shara          Anyway, I need to get some work done, so will leave you with a screenshot someone just sent me... the type of MT build I like to see. Simple, and a tiny bit different: https://i.imgur.com/ajc94Vl.png
18:21 paramat        *sigh* there's so much unreasonable and irrational complaining about MTG. other games may 'seem' more interesting but don't have the code quality, stability or good maintenance, held to all standards almost none can be bundled, so criticise other games too, they usually deserve more of it :)
18:21 Wuzzy2         ahhhhhhhhh.... my eys! a truck out of .... WOOL? you monster :D
18:21 Shara          Mwahahaha
18:21 paramat        actaully with multiple bundled games simple niche games are very welcome, it is what i would like to do
18:22 Wuzzy2         the complaining is neither unreasonable nor irattional
18:23 rubenwardy     test
18:23 Shara          It can derail desire to address things when it's as endless as it is though... serious constructive conversation would be better.
18:23 Shara          But anyway
18:23 rubenwardy     I sent loads of messages, but they didn't send :(
18:23 Wuzzy2         paramat, mtg deserves most criticism as long its default and content db is not out :P
18:23 * Shara        runs away
18:23 rubenwardy     ITB is a single player game masquerading as a server
18:23 rubenwardy     <paramat> MTG does have vision and direction, it's just not written down anywhere
18:23 rubenwardy     then it doesn't
18:23 rubenwardy     "let's not add anything but random minimal features" isn't really a vision or direction
18:23 Wuzzy2         rubenwardy, you nailed it!
18:23 paramat        i have a water sounds PR but it's only temporary until better engine code
18:23 rubenwardy     ITB should have been single player from the start, using the HTTP API
18:23 rubenwardy     well
18:24 rubenwardy     single player supporting
18:24 Wuzzy2         ITB is so obviously a singleplayer game
18:24 rubenwardy     you could still have servers
18:24 Wuzzy2         hope we can convince sofar to make it downloadable
18:24 rubenwardy     but they'd be more like hubs
18:24 rubenwardy     and there would be a central repo for map designs
18:24 rubenwardy     and you can up and download them
18:24 rubenwardy     obviously it should be well integrated into the game
18:24 Wuzzy2         well at least nobody can complain to us because we didn't contribute to it :)
18:25 rubenwardy     true
18:26 Wuzzy2         maybe this is the only positive thing about proprietary software? XD you cant be accused of not having contributed to it ;)
18:26 Wuzzy2         hehe ok im not saying itb is proprietary, im just messing. :P
18:27 paramat        well, we mean different things by 'vision and direction' then. something written down has been done before: "sandbox, mod base, some very basic gameplay features, focus moving elsewhere to other games so slow development" ?
18:27 rubenwardy     I also hate that ITB is essentially being ransomed
18:27 paramat        and what we add is not random
18:28 rubenwardy     maybe MTG should be split into individual mod repos, as a sort of library set
18:28 rubenwardy     kill it
18:28 Wuzzy2         rubenwardy, i also never really liked the concept of "forced online" singleplayer games. some proprietary games did start this practice, very worrying. technically its 100% pointless, of course its just nannying the player because reasons
18:28 rubenwardy     yeah
18:28 rubenwardy     usually to add IAPs and force adverts
18:29 Wuzzy2         no dont kill MTG. MTG is good as pure sandbox (and i mean PURE sandbox!) and good for servers
18:29 Wuzzy2         all im saying is that mtg should not be the centre of ALL attention. this goes against the vision of minetest
18:29 Wuzzy2         minetest should be about many ideas to exploit, not just one default one :)
18:30 paramat        agreed
18:30 rubenwardy     !title https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=19760
18:30 MinetestBot    rubenwardy: Please make more games! - Minetest Forums
18:30 Wuzzy2         MTG is just not good for survival gameplay, it also has really weird balancing
18:31 Wuzzy2         like steel ingots are the ultra ore, crafting everything
18:31 Wuzzy2         while other ingots are basically worthless
18:31 Wuzzy2         rubenwardy, maybe you know the vision of Minetest Game? or are you outsider? :)
18:32 Wuzzy2         paramat already failed to explain me the vision, just some vague babbling about "whatever is said in dev chat"... meh
18:34 rubenwardy     \o/
18:34 rubenwardy     anyone how I can make a new partition similar to /tmp? ie: volatile, small, permanently mounted
18:35 rubenwardy     heh
18:35 rubenwardy     doesn't matter
18:35 sfan5          if you look at the output of /sbin/mount, it contains your answer
18:50 Fixer          is that me or https://i.imgur.com/ajc94Vl.png has some duke nukem switches?
19:01 Shara          I think they were from some sci-fi mod, so maybe.
19:01 Shara          But thought it was nice creative use :)
19:03 Fixer          or maybe from Half-Life
19:04 Shara          Probably Doom, given who made the mod...
19:04 rubenwardy     CDB now supports any git repo for importing meta
19:04 rubenwardy     and can also detect the type of package
19:04 Shara          :)
19:04 rubenwardy     and also finds out all the contained mods and dependencies automagically
19:06 Fixer          or maybe doom
19:06 Fixer          yeah, very probably
21:02 MinetestBot    02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Set ENABLE_GETTEXT to TRUE by default (#7415) 1335bc3e2 https://git.io/vhRqL (152018-06-05T21:02:14Z)
21:03 Wuzzy2         thank you
21:04 Wuzzy2         how is it possible this ENABLE_GETTEXT went unnoticdd for years? XD *mysterious music plays*
21:10 MinetestBot    02[git] 04nOOb3167 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix builtin lua function os.tempfolder (#7368) 13a2de439 https://git.io/vhRq5 (152018-06-05T21:08:10Z)
21:56 Teckla         So how did Minetest get its name anyway?  :)
22:18 hmmmmm         minecraft... testing some things out... mine... test... minetest!
22:18 hmmmmm         sounds much less awkward in Finnish
22:19 rubenwardy     hey, you're not hmmmm
22:21 celeron55      obviously not, there's a fifth m!
22:21 celeron55      altough, there wasn't some moments ago
22:24 hmmmmm         i'm not "back"
22:24 hmmmmm         i had been contacted by who seems to be the guy in charge of puri.sm, the non-profit responsible for making the librem 5 phone
22:25 hmmmmm         you probably were too
22:26 hmmmmm         he wants to know what it takes to get minetest running on the debian/gnome shell tablet mode... i was honest about it (for better or worse).  you can take the android touchscreen input and genericize it to other platforms, but the elephant in the room is the rendering performance
22:26 hmmmmm         as far as i can understand, 2 years after i quit minetest nobody has done *anything* at all there
22:26 hmmmmm         it's been nerzuhl re-styling the code to use C++11 features
22:26 hmmmmm         sigh
22:26 hmmmmm         anyway i told him to come here if he wants to chat with us real time.
22:51 * paramat      says hi
23:01 VanessaE       holy shit, the prodigal son returns :)  hey hmmmmm
23:05 Teckla         hmmmmm: Heh, yeah, I feel like it was a little test (experiment) that grew, and the name Minetest just sort of "stuck."  :)
23:08 hmmmmm         paramat, VanessaE:  hi
23:08 hmmmmm         Teckla:  you should come on efnet more.
23:10 Teckla         hmmmmm: Ah, IRCCloud and EFNet were not playing nice together for a few days, it seems to be fixed now
23:14 * Teckla       stops procrastinating and reads about Lua Voxel Manipulators
23:14 hmmmmm         you like my manips
23:16 * Teckla       gives a thumbs up
23:17 hmmmmm         btw paramat i saw your commit.  thanks for fixing that man
23:17 rubenwardy     LVMs are my favourite MT API
23:32 paramat        cool :)
23:37 erstazi        Trying to hack at some lua. Got this harvester from autofarmer and with 0.4.17, it seems to be doubling the nodes. It will properly pipe one through pipeworks, but then drop one where it was. Essentially doubling. I think it has something to do with minetest.get_node_drops(node, tool) See: https://github.com/yzziizzy/minetest_autofarmer/blob/master/harvester.lua
23:39 Teckla         So quick question here, I noticed some contradictions between this: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/chapters/lvm.html and this: http://dev.minetest.net/minetest.get_content_id
23:39 Teckla         Can anyone tell me if one or the other of those is obviously out-of-date?
23:39 rubenwardy     lua_api will be more in-date
23:40 rubenwardy     wait no
23:40 rubenwardy     what's the contradiction?
23:41 rubenwardy     note that the wiki does a tiny bit of manual indexing
23:41 rubenwardy     where as that chapter uses the helper for everything
23:43 Teckla         rubenwardy: vm:write_to_map(data) vs. manip:write_to_map()
23:43 hmmmmm         you don't need to specify data
23:43 rubenwardy     yeah, it's optional
23:43 Teckla         Okey dokey, thanks hmmmmm
23:43 hmmmmm         well, is it?
23:44 rubenwardy     huh
23:44 rubenwardy     no it's not
23:44 hmmmmm         i forget how it's set up
23:44 rubenwardy     it's a boolean
23:44 rubenwardy     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L4664
23:44 rubenwardy     so data is being cast to a boolean
23:44 rubenwardy     ie: true
23:44 rubenwardy     and causing light calcs to be ran
23:44 hmmmmm         wth
23:44 hmmmmm         did i do that??
23:44 rubenwardy     silly wiki example
23:44 * rubenwardy   edits
23:45 Teckla         woo hoo, causing trouble already!  *bows*
23:45 rubenwardy     Teckla, in order of reliability (best to worst):  lua_api.txt,  my modding book,   dev wiki
23:45 twoelk         yay the wiki is considered worthy of updating
23:45 rubenwardy     my modding books has a few typos scattered around though
23:46 Teckla         rubenwardy: Got it; thanks.  lua_api.txt is my new friend
23:46 rubenwardy     no no, there is no write_to_map(data) there
23:46 rubenwardy     do you mean set_data?
23:46 rubenwardy     oohh, it's my code
23:46 hmmmmm         write_to_map(data) was originally an implicit set_data(data) && write_to_map()
23:46 rubenwardy     my bad
23:46 hmmmmm         it seems like this got repurposed here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ab371cc93491baf0973ecc94b96c3a1fdb4abfd5
23:47 rubenwardy     I must have copy and pasted that line
23:47 Teckla         Screen shot from https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/chapters/lvm.html -- https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/vdgwYxx7/image.png
23:48 rubenwardy     fun fact: that could was copied from CTF which was copied from some where else
23:48 Teckla         Interestingly, even in single mods, I see a mix of write_to_map() and write_to_map(data); for example, in the ctf game
23:48 rubenwardy     snap
23:49 rubenwardy     *code, not could
23:49 Teckla         Although I assume write_to_map(data) is harmless at runtime.
23:49 rubenwardy     it's the same as   write_to_map(true)
23:49 rubenwardy     not sure if it needs to copy into the stack passed to the c++ function
23:50 rubenwardy     also, reload the chapter
23:50 Teckla         rubenwardy: Looks good!  Thanks!
23:51 rubenwardy     actually, mistake
23:51 Teckla         rubenwardy: I think maybe possibly "pos1" and "min", and "pos2" and "max", might be interposed as well.
23:51 Teckla         Maybe.
23:52 paramat        yeah 'vm:write_to_map(data)' was an error(?) in hmmmmm's first LVM example in the forum that got copied everywhere. 'data' should not be there
23:52 rubenwardy     staaahhhpppp
23:52 rubenwardy     oh lol
23:52 hmmmmm         it wasn't an error, it was a poorly designed API that i changed before committing
23:52 hmmmmm         but i never updated the example
23:52 paramat        now of course that function takes a boolean argument for lighting
23:54 rubenwardy     updated that page
23:54 Teckla         rubenwardy: Thank you good sir  ;)
23:54 paramat        (yes sorry catching up on discussion)
23:54 Teckla         rubenwardy: Hey wait, did you take out update_map()?
23:54 rubenwardy     yes
23:54 rubenwardy     it's deprecated
23:54 Teckla         Ah ha!
23:54 rubenwardy     also, forgot to change the explaination
23:54 * Teckla       deletes that line from his code with prejudice
23:55 paramat        anyway the forum has a new LVM example now with many optimisations
23:55 paramat        memory use optimisations
23:55 Teckla         * `update_map()`: Does nothing, kept for compatibility. -- ah, yes; this file is going to come in very, very handy
23:55 Teckla         paramat: Do you happen to have the link to that post handy?
23:55 paramat        yes
23:56 paramat        https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=19836
23:56 Teckla         Thank you paramat
23:56 rubenwardy     I'll be adding your stuff to that chapter eventually, para
23:56 rubenwardy     wanted to introduce concepts gradually
23:56 paramat        ok
23:57 rubenwardy     also, the example includes stuff like noise
23:57 rubenwardy     and mapgen
23:57 rubenwardy     which I don't want in that chapter, but instead a later one
23:59 rubenwardy     anyway, gtg
23:59 hmmmmm         lol
23:59 hmmmmm         neruzuhl really doesn't like me
23:59 hmmmmm         he removed my admin status from the forum
23:59 hmmmmm         and i got my comments removed from the PRs