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IRC log for #minetest, 2018-03-12

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Time Nick Message
00:44 Miner_48er joined #minetest
00:44 MarisaG hi Miner_48er
00:45 Miner_48er hi
00:47 AntumDeluge joined #minetest
00:48 MarisaG havent been around as much
00:48 MarisaG busy with my synchronetbbs and amiga projects
00:49 MarisaG wb AntumDeluge
00:52 MarisaG mind if i ask what people would want in minetest hosting? Open to anyone, i want to be sure im covering all my bases :)
00:52 rubenwardy there's a topic on that
00:52 MarisaG there is?
00:52 rubenwardy 1 sec
00:53 MarisaG great!
00:53 rubenwardy https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=10&t=19748
00:53 MarisaG ok will check it out now
00:53 Sketch2 possibly a mumble port along with it
00:54 Sketch2 not required, just nice to have the option
00:54 MarisaG awesome, was exactly what i wanted
00:54 MarisaG ty
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01:50 MarisaG hi Tmanyo
01:50 Tmanyo hi
01:50 MarisaG nice to meet you
01:51 Tmanyo nice to meet you too
01:51 MarisaG im in san francisco, you?
01:51 Tmanyo Michigan
01:52 MarisaG oh i used to visit there in the fall
01:52 MarisaG years ago ;)
01:52 Tmanyo afk
01:52 MarisaG ok
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02:04 MarisaG hi VargaD
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04:11 Foz For years I've been getting errors like this:
04:11 Foz 2018-03-10 22:00:27: WARNING[Server]: ServerEnv: Trying to store id =  34946 statically but block (72,1,-40) already contains 512 objects.  Forcing delete.
04:12 Foz Tonight I narrowed it down to homedecor_modpack/itemframes:pedestal
04:13 Foz Every time I enter the area of the map with a pedestal, it adds a new entity
04:13 Foz until eventually there are too many.  I've been staring at the code for awhile but I can't see any reason for this.
04:16 Foz also, I can't reproduce this on my dev map, but I made a copy of the Fozland map and can reproduce this reliably on that map
04:19 sofar Ideally, the entities are deleted when the mapblock is unloaded, and an LBM adds the entities on demand
04:20 sofar care to open a bugreport on homedecor?
04:21 Foz sure I will do that
04:26 Foz https://github.com/minetest-mod​s/homedecor_modpack/issues/405
04:29 sofar Foz: I can't reproduce btw
04:30 sofar I don't see new entities added, just the old ones loaded
04:31 Foz can you try running //clearobjects on the pedestal and see how many objects it says it cleared
04:31 Foz ive been finding some pedestals with hundreds of entities
04:32 sofar I've annotated the code to show me pedestal entities that get loaded
04:33 Foz did you put that in the update_item function?
04:33 sofar just a line in on_activate() is sufficient
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04:34 sofar and //clearobjects just says 2
04:34 sofar I had a frame and a pedestal, so that matches
04:35 sofar tp'd away, come back, still only 2 entities
04:35 sofar maybe it's an old version?
04:35 sofar I'm not saying your map doesn't have 100s of entities
04:38 Foz I wrote this https://github.com/FozLand/fozl​and/blob/master/admin_wand.lua to show me all the entities and sure enough, there is another on each pedestal each time i teleport in
04:39 sofar so what version of homedecor are you using atm?
04:40 Foz bb06cfd6f6dec14b436a92bd1ef48ef2e2d388f9
04:40 Foz its not the latest, but itemframes  hasn't changed
04:42 sofar just shows one for me
04:42 sofar it doesn't work on the pedestal
04:42 sofar due to item offset
04:42 sofar it works on the frame though
04:42 Foz put a block beside it
04:42 Foz and right click the block
04:43 Foz right click a block beside the entity
04:43 sofar still only 1
04:44 Foz ok, I wasn't able to reproduce this on my dev map either
04:44 Foz but when I started a new server with a copy of the production map, it has the same problem
04:45 sofar I don't see anything significant between bb06cfd6 and 4d9c4c2
04:45 sofar so it's certainly weird
04:45 Foz I'm thinking there may be a race condition
04:46 sofar you could disable the ABM
04:47 sofar oh
04:47 sofar trying something
04:48 sofar hmm nope
04:50 Foz I modified the wand to chat_send_all and am running the map on fozland.com:30001 if you want to see it
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04:56 Foz announce is set to false but you can just change the port number of the production fozland server
05:05 Foz it is happening for itemframes as well, but not quite as often
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05:59 Jas_ Minetest game is a minetest game.  Hahahah
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12:38 MegageM hi
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15:38 cimbakahn Hello!
15:39 cimbakahn The minetest server list in client is messed up.
15:39 cimbakahn What do i do?
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16:15 sofar cimbakahn: restart the client, if problem persists, let us know?
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16:20 cimbakahn sofar, Ok.  BRB.
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16:25 cimbakahn sofar, It hasn't changed.  See ------> https://imgur.com/a/ZVHVS
16:29 sofar cimbakahn: can you try something for me?
16:30 sofar you're on linux, right?
16:31 cimbakahn sofar, Yes.
16:32 sofar curl 'servers.minetest.net/list?proto_ve​rsion_min=25&proto_version_max=32' > list.json
16:32 sofar then upload that to gist.github.com and post the link in here
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16:48 cimbakahn sofar, Finally!   https://pastebin.com/LDisTzEb
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16:50 sofar weird, I don't see anything wrong with it
16:50 sofar sfan5: nothing changed in the serverlist, right? ^^
16:51 sofar (it works for me, 0.4.16 as well)
16:51 sfan5 correct
16:52 cimbakahn It seems to me that the server names are not showing up. The ones that I manually type in show up.
16:53 sofar did you install any mods to the menu lua code?
16:58 cimbakahn sofar, If you look in the first screenshot I sent, you'll see #dd5b5b and others below it.  This is not normal.  The server name should show up here.
16:59 cimbakahn sofar, No i didn't.  I just installed regular mods to the mods folder.
17:01 sfan5 have you "done" anything involving minetest 0.5 recently?
17:01 sofar maybe a 'favorite' breaks it?
17:04 Sketch2 I've got her on mumble.  she either got it from the repo or a ppa.  I'll talk her through compiling backports and see if that fixes it
17:04 cimbakahn sofar, Should I save a copy of the .minetest folder (on my desktop), and reinstall minetest?
17:05 cimbakahn sofar, 0.5?  I don't think so.
17:06 sofar maybe remove ~/.minetest/client/serverlist/favoriteservers.txt ?
17:06 cimbakahn sofar, Ok.  Just a sec...
17:08 cimbakahn sofar, NOW THAT WORKED!
17:08 cimbakahn sofar, Yippieee!
17:09 cimbakahn sofar, You are a genius!
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17:15 JTE Is there a setting somewhere or something that controls how dark "night time" is? can it be brighter than an unlit cave?
17:20 rubenwardy JTE: gamma
17:22 JTE That does not distinguish between unlit cave and night sky (there is no "moon light" as far as I can tell?) and the entity models remain completely black despite the blocks lighting up more.
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17:31 sofar I wish there was an engine setting that a mod could change light levels
17:31 sofar curse my dark gfx card/monitor too
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17:33 algun|home Hi. Is there a program that generates a craft dependency tree for a mod?
17:40 lumberJ algun|home, i'm not sure i follow your question. do you mean a script that determines what mods are needed based on crafts in mod?
17:47 heavygale sounded for me like a request for a craft-quide ^^
17:49 lumberJ could be...
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18:03 algun|home heavygale: lumberJ: it would work sort of like a craft guide, but instead of you having to click on each item, it would generate a tree (image or html) of things where you can easily see what you need for which thing
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18:05 algun|home with root being the thing you want to construct, and leafs the stuff you find in the world, like stone, wood, sand
18:07 lumberJ meaning: say you want to craft and item that requires other items which also require crafting...
18:07 lumberJ it would also show how to craft those items all in one schematic?
18:08 algun|home yes
18:09 algun|home like a technology tree
18:09 algun|home but a crafting tree
18:09 lumberJ i see
18:10 lumberJ sounds nice, but i think it would be hard to implement in game, given the limiations of formspecs
18:11 lumberJ a full screen formspec might hold enough inventory slots to show most crafts, but i don't know of any mod like that to answer your question
18:11 algun|home i don't mean that it should be in the game
18:11 algun|home i said generate an image or html
18:11 lumberJ right, just seems like it would be more handy in game
18:12 lumberJ but definitely would be more realistic to generate outside of the game
18:13 lumberJ are you thinking of developing something like that, or just wondering if it exists?
18:13 algun|home i might be open to the idea of developing it myself
18:14 algun|home What environment do you recommend? Should I load a mod into a local game? Then am I able to access some Lua console?
18:15 lumberJ nice, you might look into using something like lapis (web framework supporting lua).Might be easier if you are comfortable with lua to jump platforms
18:16 lumberJ for modding, just a good text editor and the game engine is enough.
18:16 lumberJ i use geany which has most basic ide features
18:17 lumberJ and minetest game engine will handle most errors if you run it with the terminal
18:17 algun|home It doesn't matter where i put in the code so much as how do I run it though? Would I have to constantly restart the server?
18:17 algun|home And If so, can I speed things up, maybe run a headless server?
18:19 lumberJ As far as i know there is no way but to restart the server, but might be good to verify with someone like sofar, VanessaE or sfan5 or any of the other OPs if they are around.
18:20 sofar I've never used anything else except for restarting the server or client
18:20 sofar the server starts really fast
18:20 lumberJ you can definitely run the server without the client though
18:20 sofar you could keep a client running and make it connect to localhost
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18:22 algun|home could you recommend a tutor (i never wrote a mod for minetest) that would suit my needs?
18:22 VanessaE lua-users.org
18:23 VanessaE really, the resources on that site make it easy
18:23 VanessaE plus you'll need the minetest lua api
18:23 algun|home Would this be a client-side mod?
18:23 VanessaE when you want more advanced stuff, look at the PIL
18:23 algun|home PIL?
18:24 VanessaE client- or server-side, mods work about the same.  it's just a matter of what engine functions you have availabler
18:24 VanessaE -r
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18:24 VanessaE Programming in Lua, https://www.lua.org/pil/
18:25 algun|home Client-side can access server-side recipes, right?
18:25 VanessaE note that I've never made a client-side mod.  Always server-side.
18:25 VanessaE I don't know.  I would assume so?
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18:27 lumberJ algun|home: https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest/tree/master/doc
18:27 lumberJ here are docs for both server and client side APIs
18:28 algun|home this might be a silly question, luacontroller can't access client-side apis, right?
18:28 sofar rubenwardy's modding book is what you would start with
18:28 algun|home thanks lumberJ
18:28 sofar I'd recommend _not_ doing CSM mods at first
18:28 sofar since the API isn't even stable
18:29 algun|home i thought it was a subset of the server-side api
18:29 sofar it runs in a completely different context and is entirely incompatible
18:29 algun|home oh lua-users is about the language (PIL too)
18:30 sofar plus for anything crafting related you can do this better on the server side
18:30 sofar since all the data is right there
18:30 lumberJ algun|home free lua manual:https://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html
18:30 lumberJ most of that will apply
18:30 sofar https://rubenwardy.com/minete​st_modding_book/en/index.html
18:30 algun|home that's not what i wanted, i think i need what the gents suggested
18:31 algun|home Vanessa^
18:31 lumberJ and that is the next link i was going to post :)
18:31 algun|home sofar: found it yeah
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18:33 algun|home sofar: the prob is i can't load server side mods willy nilly
18:34 algun|home and sometimes their recipes differ
18:34 sofar not sure what your problem is, can you give more detail?
18:36 algun|home i want to generate a tech(actually crafting dependency) tree with a chosen object as root down to basic blocks as leaves, but ideally i'd be able to generate it from actual recipes (running on an arbitrary server) without having to replicate the environment locally
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18:37 blaise availabler
18:38 * blaise adds availabler to the urban dictionary
18:39 sofar algun|home: I fail to see how that is a problem
18:39 algun|home sofar: a server-side mod is only a solution for the servers under my control
18:39 sofar algun|home: just write code that can make an abritrary dependency tree at run time and make some way to ask it about a crafting recipe or crafting item
18:39 sofar oh, IC your point
18:40 sofar well, my recommendation would be to solve it server-side first
18:40 sofar and then see if you can make it a CSM and if the needed API's are even there
18:40 algun|home btw. why *isn't* the client-side api a subset of the server-side one?
18:40 sofar because that makes no sense
18:40 algun|home i guess it has some client-specific things?
18:41 sofar the client view of the "world" is entirely different from what the server sees
18:41 algun|home like umm... presskey or something?
18:41 sofar not just that, almost anything is different
18:41 sofar even the way the client sees the mapblocks is different
18:41 algun|home eg.?
18:42 algun|home and that isn't abstracted away for the mods?
18:42 sofar read the code?
18:43 algun|home nope
18:43 algun|home i only changed stone to be luminous once
18:43 algun|home and possibly granted myself no_clip, and no fall damage
18:44 algun|home but that's not lua
18:44 sofar your questions are great, it's just office time here and I have work to do as well
18:45 algun|home sofar: go ahead mate, i'll figure it out
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21:19 Heckless https://a.uguu.se/YvXArhf3ftYi_eat.gif yum
21:20 sfan5 oof
21:20 Heckless eating now takes time and can't be done in the air, or while swimming
21:21 Heckless I'll need a formspec to display a progress bar for actions like this
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22:17 ThomasMonroe paramat, GameStateManager and Gamestates have been added to Qub3d :)
22:18 ThomasMonroe https://phab.qub3d.org/D15
22:18 Heckless What's that?
22:18 ThomasMonroe its a similar project
22:19 Heckless Give me some details
22:20 ThomasMonroe I have to go afk for a little bit, but if you want some details here's the website: https://qub3d.org
22:20 sfan5 are you sure you'll get anywhere by rewriting everything from scratch?
22:20 ThomasMonroe and if I don't I will have learned a ton of good knowledge
22:21 ThomasMonroe :D which is always a good thing
22:21 Heckless I'm pretty sure Irrlicht is terrible enough to justify that attempt
22:21 Heckless So you're the one writing it?
22:21 ThomasMonroe me and a couple other people
22:21 ThomasMonroe bbiab
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22:55 ThomasMonroe back
22:56 Heckless the first thing going through my head when opening the tech page
22:56 Heckless please don't use python, please don't use friggin' python, oh thank goodness
22:57 Heckless not sure if I'm fond of namedropping Minecraft on the front page
22:57 ThomasMonroe lol
22:57 Heckless one can do so, so much better than being just some alternative to minecrap
22:57 ThomasMonroe its still in progress
22:58 Heckless that made me chuckle
22:58 Heckless so how far are you guys into this?
22:58 ThomasMonroe oohhh, about 2-3 months
22:58 ThomasMonroe XD
22:58 ThomasMonroe not that far
22:59 ThomasMonroe we've made some major foundations though
22:59 Heckless saying 3 months is about as helpful as giving someone a line count
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22:59 Heckless can you render some blocks yet?
22:59 ThomasMonroe nope
22:59 ThomasMonroe just now got GameStates working
23:00 Heckless what are those and aren't they something that should be left to the lua side subgame?
23:01 ThomasMonroe A gamestate is any state that the client is in, ie playing, settings menu, or paused
23:01 Heckless oh, that
23:02 ThomasMonroe http://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/state.html
23:02 Heckless geez, I know
23:02 Heckless anyway I'm making this odd subgame https://a.uguu.se/LoR6qK4kNZnd_m.png
23:02 Heckless and I could share some of my heckling about minetest's engine if you want
23:03 ThomasMonroe O_o ok I guess :)
23:04 ThomasMonroe IMO the source code is under documented
23:04 Heckless that's not a huge issue to me, though I've thrown some unsavory words at the API docs a few times
23:04 Heckless but consider this gif https://a.uguu.se/YvXArhf3ftYi_eat.gif
23:04 rubenwardy heckless, the page will be updated in a few hours
23:05 rubenwardy home page
23:05 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/m​inetest.github.io/issues/122
23:05 Heckless the sheer amount of default, hardcoded stuff I had to sidestep just to make this
23:06 ThomasMonroe hmm I think we could allow for that
23:06 ThomasMonroe noice rubenwardy :D
23:06 Heckless allow for what, exactly?
23:07 Heckless if you mean locking the player in place, yeah, do that
23:07 ThomasMonroe I noticed the camera movement didn't always affect the player movement
23:07 Heckless and give me a goddamn set_velocity()
23:07 ThomasMonroe O_o
23:07 Heckless yeah, that's because I had to parent the player to an entity in order to disable movement for a while
23:07 Heckless there's absolutely no other good way to do this in minetest
23:08 Heckless as a side effect, it lets you rotate the camera freely, so I just do that every time the player is standing still
23:08 Heckless anyway, what I'm trying to say is
23:08 ThomasMonroe you can add ideas on the phabricator wiki, I'm probably not going to remember all of this XD
23:09 rubenwardy lol
23:09 Heckless don't waste time hardcoding parts of the game, not even simple stuff like movement
23:09 ThomasMonroe wdym?
23:09 rubenwardy pls don't offtopic, thanks
23:10 ThomasMonroe ah ok rubenwardy
23:10 Heckless this concerns minetest too
23:10 Heckless even player movement and node digging should be part of the lua subgame
23:10 ThomasMonroe no
23:11 Heckless why not?
23:11 ThomasMonroe why should it?
23:12 Heckless because you can't foresee every use case
23:12 Heckless someone might decide he'd rather have players face the direction they're moving instead of strafing
23:12 Heckless someone else might want to have point and click movement
23:12 paramat well, certain stuff has to be in engine for performance
23:12 ThomasMonroe true
23:13 ThomasMonroe so we make different kinds of movement and allow for the subgame or client to choose
23:13 Heckless sure, but not as much as in current minetest
23:13 Heckless rigidbody simulating its position and velocity, sure, this is engine side stuff
23:14 Heckless but nothing more specific than that, and if you hardcode gameplay, you are just making more work for yourself
23:15 Heckless and for people who would want to do something different
23:15 ThomasMonroe but at the same time you're making more work for people who don't want to do something different
23:16 Heckless not necessarily, just give them a default subgame to mod, which you will anyway
23:16 rubenwardy That's not true, you save work by making some assumptions
23:16 rubenwardy And Minetest doesn't have that much hard coded
23:16 rubenwardy It just doesn't have the ability to customise lots of client side actions
23:16 rubenwardy Which you need for movement
23:17 rubenwardy And input generally
23:20 rubenwardy If server side movement gets merged, then we have the security to allow movement to be added to the client-side API
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23:21 Hecklesss sorry about that
23:22 rubenwardy rubenwardy: If server side movement gets merged, then we have the security to allow movement to be added to the client-side API
23:22 Hecklesss actually, about the client side API
23:22 Hecklesss is there a way for the server to send the client code to execute?
23:23 rubenwardy There will be by 0.5.0
23:23 Hecklesss good
23:23 Hecklesss making camera stuff, prediction and things like visual effects happen client side would take a lot of work off the server
23:23 Flitzpiepe ohm that's a good inprovement, I think.
23:23 Flitzpiepe *improvement
23:23 Hecklesss Will the server have some way of validating client code, to prevent cheating where it matters?
23:24 rubenwardy No
23:25 rubenwardy That's not how security works
23:25 Hecklesss I may have phrased that wrong
23:25 rubenwardy Instead you need to distrust anything the client tells you
23:25 rubenwardy And validate it all
23:25 Hecklesss yeah, I know, I mean, can the client code talk to the server at all
23:26 rubenwardy Yes, with mod channels
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