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IRC log for #minetest, 2017-12-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Wuzzy its a form of power to silence other devs and users
00:00 Guest66334 not true at all
00:00 Guest66334 if you release a license they have to respect it
00:00 Guest66334 otherwise just don't use a license at all
00:01 Wuzzy why do i have to respect it?
00:01 Guest66334 because is the laws says that
00:01 Wuzzy thats a terrible argument
00:01 Guest66334 no is not
00:02 Wuzzy My "talking to me" licence requires you to give me a nice paycheck, otherwise you violated the license terms. ;-)
00:02 Guest66334 if i realease my job under a license i have the rights to claim a copyright issue on you and legally spacking if you lose the legal stuff you will pay lots of money
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00:03 Guest66334 speaking*
00:03 Wuzzy the Law once stated its okay to kill jews. using the Law is a terrible argument
00:05 Guest66334 no, that's wrong.. if you put something under license so you are able to claim right on it, but if you don't want the law will do nothing
00:05 Guest66334 this is logic, if you don't want rights on something just don't use a license
00:05 Wuzzy i am not arguing what copyright law does and does not say...
00:06 Wuzzy i am arguing that copyright law is not a good idea in the first place
00:07 Wuzzy lets say you draw an amazing picture. now what is the *only* way for me to share a photo of it online, legally?
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00:08 Guest66334 asking for permission
00:08 Wuzzy exactly!
00:08 Guest66334 or just let me put it under a license with redistribution
00:08 Wuzzy you never have to give permission
00:08 Wuzzy i could offer you a million bucks and you still dont give it to me
00:09 Wuzzy thats my problem with this system
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00:09 Guest66334 yea but is my work, i'm not obligated to give my work to you
00:09 Guest66334 it's just my rights to keep it for me
00:09 Wuzzy you basically have a monopoly. also lets not forget that the copyright holder is not always the creator
00:10 Wuzzy your "right" comes at the expense of everyone else's artistic freedom
00:10 Hijiri Guest66334: if you don't do anything there is a default, very restrictive license that is applied
00:10 Guest66334 sure ofcourse, developers inside big companies are not the copyright holders of the company's softwares
00:11 Hijiri you have to explicitly license people additional permissions
00:12 Guest66334 sure you can, but you just have to pick the right license, if you don't pick one at all i can do everything with your job
00:12 pgimeno Wuzzy: now imagine it's a picture a friend made for profit and he's exhibiting it. You take a picture and distribute it. The picture becomes viral and it spreads and no one wants to buy it. That's bad for the creator of the picture: sharing it results in removing his source of income.
00:12 Wuzzy rofl
00:12 Wuzzy i love how these discussions always quickly degrade about one thing
00:12 Wuzzy MONEY
00:12 Hijiri Guest66334: That depends on the specific relationship
00:12 Wuzzy its so predictable
00:12 pgimeno Wuzzy: yes, copyright is about money
00:13 Guest66334 Wuzzy: that's how the world works
00:13 Hijiri If I post something online with no explicit license, you get almost no rights
00:13 Hijiri If I am your employee, you get all the rights
00:13 Guest66334 again, we live in the real world, not in the ideal world
00:13 Hijiri Guest66334: I'm talking about real law
00:14 Wuzzy if your business model comes at the expense of the freedom of everyone else, it is worth to die
00:14 Guest66334 Hijiri: my message was for Wuzzy ahah
00:14 Hijiri oh
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00:14 Guest66334 yea ofc, if you post something without license i can do everything with it
00:14 Hijiri I don't think people should be forced to send you anything, but the problems are when you prevent other people from sending the thing you sent them
00:14 Guest66334 that's why a license is needed
00:15 Wuzzy the money argument is missing the point
00:15 Hijiri Guest66334: Did you even read what I said
00:15 Wuzzy remember the million bucks?
00:15 Hijiri If I post something without license you can do almost nothing with it
00:15 Hijiri Legally
00:15 Guest66334 are you sure about that?
00:15 Hijiri Yes
00:15 pgimeno Wuzzy: I beg to differ. Some people are best at creativity and suck at most everything else, and their best way to serve society and earn their living is to sell their creations.
00:15 Hijiri Guest66334: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention
00:16 Wuzzy many people can't afford to be an artist. if you'Re not "useful" in this society, you're screwed
00:16 Wuzzy but the question "how do i earn my living" is an entirely different beast
00:17 Guest66334 well you may be right Hijiri but it depends from multiple
00:17 Guest66334 like the platform where you publish something
00:17 Hijiri depends from multiple what
00:17 pgimeno my point is, without laws to protect their source of income, they would starve
00:17 Wuzzy i guess fair use?
00:17 Hijiri Guest66334: If you publish to a platform then usually the platform requires you to license the platform to redistribute it, in their terms of service
00:17 Wuzzy thats why i am for basic income
00:18 Hijiri Guest66334: But those rights don't extend to random viewers, usually
00:18 Wuzzy it is very likely a ton of jobs will disappear. it already started. it will be harder and harder to make cash by working
00:18 Wuzzy if this problem is not solved soon, things will get ugly
00:20 pgimeno well, I'm done with the off-topic excursion, sorry for letting myself being dragged into it :)
00:22 Wuzzy I'm off, too. Guest39333 dos not even the most basic fact about copyright. <Hijiri> If I post something without license you can do almost nothing with it Guest66334> are you sure about that?
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00:23 pgimeno to get back on topic, I'd appreciate criticism on the recipe for the multicolour light: https://github.com/pgimeno/digi​play/blob/master/init.lua#L116
00:28 pgimeno man, Irrlicht text editor sucks
00:31 Guest66334 try vim
00:32 pgimeno can't use vim to code a LuaController
00:32 Guest66334 why not?
00:32 rubenwardy the day the world ends will be the day I meet a vegan, vim, and arch linux user
00:32 Guest66334 ahahaah
00:33 Guest66334 2/3 here
00:33 rubenwardy Hi, I use... um.. am... errrr.. ArchVimgan *universe explodes*
00:33 Guest66334 it's not my fault, i like meat too much :(
00:34 Guest66334 what's wrong with arch?
00:36 rubenwardy nothing
00:36 rubenwardy https://pics.me.me/btw-i-use-​arch-basically-p-23678286.png
00:37 Guest66334 ahahaahahahhaahah
00:37 rubenwardy joking, mostly
00:37 Guest66334 what you use rubenwardy
00:37 Guest66334 ?
00:38 * rubenwardy is just envious as he doesn't now how to compile ArchLinux
00:38 rubenwardy Xubuntu :
00:38 rubenwardy :D
00:38 Guest66334 :\ really?
00:39 rubenwardy custom gtk theme, paper icons, and albert
00:39 Guest66334 gesus
00:39 Guest66334 this is a bait
01:00 GreenDimond Xubuntu is lit
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02:06 red-001 rubenwardy, challenge accepted
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03:50 GreenDimond sofar
03:50 GreenDimond he's back https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=3&amp;t=17817&amp;p=305102#p305102
03:50 GreenDimond https://forum.minetest.net/memberli​st.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=22404
03:51 GreenDimond and why are none of the moderators ever around? :/
03:53 GreenDimond oh wait
03:53 GreenDimond perhaps VanessaE is around
04:21 redblade7 hey listen if anyone asks why the digital farms is down, tell them i was too exhausted and i went to bed
04:21 redblade7 and that it will be up tomorrow
04:21 redblade7 goodnight
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06:10 ChimneySwift Does anyone know of a setting which adjusts how many lines of chat can be seen in the in-game chatbar? (not F10)
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10:06 MarisaG hi everyone
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10:35 MinetestBot [git] nOOb3167 -> minetest/minetest: Fix error if setting menu_last_game is not a valid game 036585b https://git.io/vb92g (2017-12-22T10:35:06Z)
10:35 MinetestBot [git] nOOb3167 -> minetest/minetest: Fix undefined behaviour on getting pointer to empty vector address of… 42e37de https://git.io/vb922 (2017-12-22T10:33:46Z)
10:43 MinetestBot [git] nOOb3167 -> minetest/minetest: Fix error if setting menu_last_game is not a valid game 8037eda https://git.io/vb9ac (2017-12-22T10:39:51Z)
10:43 MinetestBot [git] nOOb3167 -> minetest/minetest: Fix undefined behaviour on getting pointer to data in empty vector 7354d0f https://git.io/vb9aC (2017-12-22T10:39:25Z)
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10:54 nop hi all
11:08 rubenwardy Calinou: I forwarded an email I received about getting a wiki account to your Gmail address
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11:17 nop there is a method that allows me to load a mod configuration? or i have to write a parser?
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12:08 nop there is a way to overwrite whata block drops when broken?
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12:23 Calinou rubenwardy: I have no GMail address in use since early 2014 :P
12:23 rubenwardy Lol
12:23 Calinou see PM for my current email
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14:21 Pie-jacker875 I can't find where my client is saving the config file. it won't read from it when I launch it, so it's default every time
14:21 ThomasMonroe what OS do you use?
14:21 Pie-jacker875 fedora
14:21 Pie-jacker875 I compiled from source, not using the repo package
14:22 RafiX check .minetest in home dir
14:22 Pie-jacker875 well yeah, that's there
14:22 Pie-jacker875 oh I just thought of something
14:22 RafiX what about permissions?
14:22 ThomasMonroe the .conf should be in the base dir
14:22 ThomasMonroe wait did you compile using -DRUN_IN_PLACE=TRUE ?
14:22 Pie-jacker875 yes
14:22 Pie-jacker875 I tried without but got errors
14:23 ThomasMonroe ok, if the .conf is not in the base dir, then you can just create it
14:23 Pie-jacker875 ~ or ~/.minetest?
14:23 RafiX ~/.minetest
14:23 ThomasMonroe the directory from which you compiled it
14:27 fwhcat hjyhe
14:27 fwhcat fh
14:31 Pie-jacker875 it's not creating a config file in the build directory or reading from one if I put it there
14:32 ThomasMonroe hmm
14:32 Pie-jacker875 I had a .minetest dir from before when I used the fedora package, but after deleting it, the client I built won't create the dir
14:33 Pie-jacker875 there's also nothing in the freedesktop standard config directory
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14:38 ThomasMonroe idk then
14:58 Pie-jacker875 I got it working this time
14:58 Pie-jacker875 I think I had a typo the first time I tried without DRUN_IN_PLACE
15:00 ThomasMonroe oh that makes sense :)
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15:48 nop someone knows if there is a built-in method to create a crafting grid or i have to create my own?
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15:55 MinetestBot twic: Dec-21 20:03 UTC <paramat> what do you mean exactly by "affected by things like snow or trees" ? maybe ask here https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=47&amp;t=15272
15:56 twic Can I use math.random to generate positive and negative numbers?, for example math.random(-15, 15)
15:58 ThomasMonroe you should, if not you could do "math.random(0,30)-15"
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16:57 deltasquared if there's anyone here who's running an ubuntu system, I need to ask a favour. I think I've ran into an issue with how string.format behaves on ubuntu systems in particular, so if anyone could run the following fragment and tell me it's result along with their ubuntu version, I'd be grateful (don't worry, no viruses ;) )
16:57 deltasquared lua5.1 -e 'print(string.format("%d", 140881370316824))'
16:58 deltasquared (not MT's fault exactly but it is relevant)
16:59 pgimeno 16 or 32 bits?
17:00 deltasquared pgimeno: you mean 32 or 64, right? :P but either
17:00 pgimeno er, that
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17:00 Krock 16 bits is quite rare - even for microcontrollers
17:00 pgimeno I get different results on 32 and 64 bits, as I expected
17:01 deltasquared pgimeno: care to tell? and which ubuntu versions?
17:01 deltasquared ... unless we're talking about something else
17:01 * deltasquared pretends not to gatecrash
17:02 pgimeno this is Debian, but still. The 32 bit version says -2147483648 (=overflow); the 64 bit version gives the exact number entered.
17:02 deltasquared interesting.
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17:03 deltasquared on ubuntu 16.04 *64-bit* I've had the owner of a server where this was causing problems report that it was clamped instead, namely 2147483647
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17:04 pgimeno that might depend even on how the Lua interpreter was compiled
17:04 pgimeno $ dpkg -l lua5.1|grep ^ii
17:04 pgimeno ii  lua5.1         5.1.5-8.1+b2 amd64        Simple, extensible, embeddable programming language
17:04 deltasquared pgimeno: indeed, hence why I need data from other ubuntu users - they may have changed the comp flags in the meantime
17:04 deltasquared apparently there is a compilation flag that affects it. hmm
17:05 deltasquared I would have to look into the lua5.1 source code for starters.
17:05 pgimeno $ dpkg -l lua5.1|grep ^ii
17:05 pgimeno ii  lua5.1         5.1.5-4      i386         Simple, extensible, embeddable programming language
17:05 pgimeno ^ the second one is the 32 bit machine obviously
17:05 deltasquared right, so only the patch sequence number is different. I'll have to look at what they apply on top, if any
17:06 pgimeno anyway, why not use "%s" instead of "%d"?
17:06 deltasquared pgimeno: because it loses precision
17:06 pgimeno it does what???
17:06 deltasquared for the above, using %s chops the last digit off
17:06 pgimeno it's a float to start with
17:06 deltasquared doubles actually, and they can fit a 48-bit int.
17:08 pgimeno ok, %.99g does it
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17:11 pgimeno I think it was 17 for double round-tripping, so %.17g should suffice unless it starts to lose precision
17:11 deltasquared pgimeno: hmm, interesting. so it does. seeing as it's basically the same as what C printf does...
17:11 deltasquared hehe, "make it 99 so it can't possibly ever break!"
17:11 pgimeno it *is* sprintf under the hood
17:11 pgimeno that's why it doesn't take nulls (which is a shame)
17:11 deltasquared probably why it's clamping also
17:11 pgimeno yep
17:12 deltasquared because it expects an int... which can be 32-bit
17:12 deltasquared even on 64-bit machines
17:15 pgimeno I thought 64 bit machines with 32 bit ints are rare. Maybe that Lua is the 32 bit version?
17:18 sfan5 lua uses floats for numbers btw
17:18 rubenwardy it uses doubles
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17:19 rubenwardy I literally just read that in the Lua source :)
17:19 rubenwardy typedef lua_Number double;
17:19 rubenwardy err
17:19 rubenwardy other way around
17:19 pgimeno sfan5: we're discussing string.format("%d", ...) which I am pretty sure uses sprintf under the hood
17:19 sfan5 well close enough
17:20 rubenwardy infact I believe that all Lua variables are 64bit, as it's a union
17:20 rubenwardy *at least
17:20 rubenwardy I vaguely recal
17:20 deltasquared rubenwardy: it seems that it's sprintf's fault in this case either way
17:20 sfan5 pgimeno: it indeed uses sprintf
17:21 pgimeno the point here is, that "%d" applies to ints, hence it depends on the machine's word size independently of using the double number format
17:22 deltasquared but at least on the sysV abi used by most unixen, int is always 32-bit
17:22 deltasquared regardless of machine word size
17:22 deltasquared if you're on x86_64, it's long that is 64 bits
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17:32 pgimeno https://github.com/lua/lua/​blob/v5.1.1/lstrlib.c#L777 processes %d
17:34 deltasquared pgimeno: actually it's v5_1_1 as that link you gave 404's.
17:34 pgimeno https://github.com/lua/lua/​blob/v5.1.1/luaconf.h#L730 defines LUA_INTFRM_T
17:35 pgimeno https://github.com/lua/lua/​blob/v5_1_1/luaconf.h#L730
17:35 pgimeno sorry about that, I was copying from screen to screen by hand :)
17:38 deltasquared aaah, so it's long... which can *still* be 32-bit
17:38 deltasquared I think it's only guaranteed to be 64 bits if it's ll
17:38 deltasquared so in general, this was basically undefined behaviour
17:38 pgimeno on a 64 bit machine? weird
17:38 deltasquared pgimeno: I know, but still
17:38 deltasquared that's what the C spec says
17:39 deltasquared and undefined behaviour can eat your cat. :P (no, that last part is not in the standard, but it may as well be)
17:42 pgimeno isn't it compiler-dependent as opposed to undefined? I'd guess Ubuntu would use gcc
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17:43 pgimeno which is what still has me perplexed
17:47 deltasquared pgimeno: I dunno, all I can relay is the behaviour that was being seen - on a 64-bit ubuntu 16.04 system (the same one where the pipeworks bug was triggered), string.format("%d", 140881370316824) clamps to 2^31-1 (at least it isn't wrapping, but still annoying)
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19:10 LazyJ I'm looking for VanessaE's servers in freenode (#ve-minetest-servers) but not even finding anything of hers with a "minetest" search. What's the new channel(s) or status?
19:11 sofar it should be on #freenode
19:12 LazyJ Running the search again...
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19:16 fwhcat you too cannot connect to her irc network ?
19:16 red-001 the network was shutdown
19:17 LazyJ I read she shutdown InchraNet and moved under freenode's umbrella.
19:18 LazyJ Entering the channel name directly into the "Join Channel" did the trick but now I'm wondering (a fiddling with) why Hexchat's search won't pick it up.
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19:20 LazyJ Heh. Now that I've added the channel to the auto-join list, it shows up on the search. (shrugs)
19:20 pgimeno traditionally channels set to secret won't appear in the channel list, but I don't know if that's the case with freenode
19:20 pgimeno (mode +s)
19:20 twoelk what does hexchat search? if it searches a local channel list you might have to refresh that
19:21 LazyJ twoelk: There's a button to "Download" all the channels in the selected server. I hit that a few times.
19:22 twoelk its a long list :-) might take it's time
19:22 LazyJ pgimeno might be on to something as #ve-minetest-servers didn't come back as a search result until *after* joining the channel.
19:22 pgimeno * Channel #ve-minetest-servers modes: +cnst
19:22 pgimeno yes it has the +s flag
19:23 pgimeno that's typically done after spambot problems
19:23 LazyJ Heh. Not surprised if that is the reason given the year Minetest has had.
19:24 twoelk oops, mt does have it's share of trolls
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20:27 nop there is a builtin alternative to luaconfig?
20:29 sfan5 luaconfig?
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20:36 nop yea sfan5 this one https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=12040
20:36 sfan5 oh
20:36 sfan5 nope, there's nothing builtin like that
20:36 nop i jus need to read from config file
20:37 nop and i would avoid dependencies
20:37 sfan5 well
20:37 sfan5 actually
20:37 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L4145
20:38 pgimeno will the extension of that file ever be changed to .md?
20:39 nop why you need markdown on your config file?
20:39 pgimeno I mean lua_api.txt -> lua_api.md
20:39 nop oh yea well, i think someone should make a pr
20:40 pgimeno I was reading it right now. It's kinda difficult to read.
20:40 nop the file is already md ready
20:40 pgimeno yeah, that's why I'm asking
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20:41 nop i think the doc directory is where the wiki reads so changing the file name maybe can cause problems with the wiki
20:42 pgimeno the main problem I have with it is sections - it's not at all clear what is inside what
20:43 pgimeno counting #'s is distracting
20:44 nop past the content of the file here
20:45 nop http://markdownlivepreview.com/
20:48 pgimeno I was pasting it as a gist :) https://gist.github.com/pgimeno/​8fa385ff4dd6dc9686024586ffc634fe
20:49 pgimeno um yeah, you lose the ability to reference specific lines - but you have the ability to reference specific sections
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22:02 MinetestBot [git] kaeza -> minetest/minetest_game: creative: Add missing tooltips. 5b57815 https://git.io/vbHEP (2017-12-22T21:57:24Z)
22:02 MinetestBot [git] kaeza -> minetest/minetest_game: creative: Use icons for buttons. dfe7494 https://git.io/vbHEX (2017-12-22T21:57:24Z)
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22:11 pgimeno I'm trying to make a simple mapgen. I'm using minetest.get_mapgen_object("voxelmanip") inside register_on_generated, but I don't understand what the on_generated callback passes as min and max vs. the positions that get_mapgen_object returns. I am guessing that the positions returned by get_mapgen_object is the actual extent of the VoxelManip, but then what are the positions in the callback?
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22:13 rubenwardy pgimeno, https://rubenwardy.com/minete​st_modding_book/lua_api.html
22:14 rubenwardy also, it can't be renamed to .md due to not being able to link to a line
22:15 pgimeno rubenwardy: thanks
22:17 pgimeno so what are the positions passed to the on_generated callback? anyone?
22:25 sofar minp, maxp
22:25 sofar coordinates of the generated box (extremes)
22:26 pgimeno sofar: thanks, but then what's returned by get_mapgen_object? I thought it was the same but it doesn't match
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22:35 paramat 'on generated' minp maxp is the volume of the mapchunk, but the mapgen object voxelmanip volume is the mapchunk plus a 1 mapblock thick (16 nodes) padding
22:35 paramat a shell of mapblocks is always added what ever size the mapchunk is
22:36 paramat pgimeno ^
22:38 pgimeno paramat: thanks, I see, so what should I modify? the whole VoxelManip or only the minp..maxp from on generated?
22:40 pgimeno I'm guessing the latter?
22:42 pgimeno I mean, I guess I should not touch that padding, right?
22:54 paramat the padding is essential for trees
22:55 paramat they need to extend up into the padding, otherwise you end up with large strips of terrain with no trees
22:55 paramat but basically just alter inside minp to maxp
22:55 pgimeno ok, thank you
22:56 paramat and if you place a tree on the surface inside the mapchunk, allow it to extend up into the padding
22:56 paramat so, trees cannot be higher than 16 nodes
22:57 paramat in core mapgen, large caves and dungeons extend horizontally outwards into the padding, in the hope of overlapping other caves and dungeons, and to make these structures larger
22:58 pgimeno what happens to what I write in the padding? is it lost? or is it merged with the existing content?
22:59 paramat it's always preserved
22:59 paramat mapgen will only overwrite "ignore" nodes
23:00 paramat "ignore" == ungenerated world
23:01 pgimeno hmm, I think the "ignore" part fills the gaps in my understanding
23:01 pgimeno so, the initial value of the padding is either "ignore" or a previously generated area
23:03 pgimeno if you write to the padding, whatever you leave as "ignore" will be overwritten by the mapgen
23:03 pgimeno (that's what I understand from that)
23:03 pgimeno and if you write to a previously existing area, the content you write replaces the existing content
23:04 pgimeno if the above is right, now everything makes sense, thanks :)
23:04 paramat mostly correct
23:05 paramat actually, all correct
23:05 pgimeno thanks, got it now
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23:11 nyje Are there readable docs for the 0.5 api and it's difference from the 0.4.16?
23:11 rubenwardy rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/lua_api.html
23:11 rubenwardy but no differences there
23:13 nyje sorry more context, i run a popular server, (C I T Y 2) and am interested in how much work will be involved moving to 0.5...
23:13 nyje will all current mods break?
23:14 rubenwardy no
23:15 rubenwardy only player model related things
23:15 rubenwardy but only slightly
23:15 paramat very little breaks
23:15 paramat anything that does will be stated in the news subforum
23:16 rubenwardy we try to keep mod and map breakages minimal
23:16 rubenwardy as they're our biggest assets
23:16 paramat 0.5 is generally not breaking mods or worlds
23:16 rubenwardy the only really breakages are network related, and that player thing
23:17 nyje wow, I woke all the big guns, thanks guys for the reasurance.
23:18 rubenwardy heh
23:18 rubenwardy due to messed up sleeping patterns, I'm always awake late
23:18 rubenwardy :)
23:18 nyje where would i look for the newest api docs?
23:18 nyje i understand each new commit must have docs...
23:19 rubenwardy docs/lua_api.txt
23:19 rubenwardy for the API
23:19 nyje is ther a coherent 0.5 api doc?
23:19 rubenwardy not really
23:19 rubenwardy I wouldn't count lua_api as coherent
23:19 rubenwardy :D
23:19 nyje haha, thanks anyway.
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23:30 paramat the 0.5 API doc is latest lua_api.txt, it's always kept up to date
23:47 pgimeno it would be nice if VoxelManip accepted CDATA objects
23:49 pgimeno that could further boost performance of Lua-based mapgens on LuaJIT
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