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IRC log for #minetest, 2017-10-25

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14:33 Billre Does minetest  have relative coordinates?
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14:33 Brackston You mean to find players that are related to you? lol
14:34 Billre For example, if I code a command block for @10 10 10, it picks a node 10 blocks in all directions from itself
14:34 Billre lol Bro
14:34 deltasquared Billre: command blocks run the command as their placer
14:34 deltasquared and no, I don't think it features interpretation of relative co-ords
14:35 deltasquared a lua block of sorts (with restricted functionality, similar to mesecons luacontrollers) would be better for that sort of thing IMO
14:36 Billre I didn't know there was a lua block
14:36 Billre How do carts move?
14:37 deltasquared Billre: the lua block was a hypothetical.
14:37 deltasquared as to how carts move.. have you looked at the code? I haven't :P
14:37 deltasquared also I detect an !xyproblem but I'll wait
14:37 Billre look at code rather than ask an unprepared question?  That wouldn't be very newbie of me.  :D
14:38 deltasquared lel fair enough, have a cookie
14:38 Billre lol
14:39 deltasquared in all fairness though I *think* I saw something about adding velocity in the cart's on_punch method
14:39 Billre that would make sense as the more I punch it, the faster it goes
14:41 deltasquared Billre: from the looks of minetest/games/minetest/mods/carts/cart_entity.lua it simply sets it's own velocity and the engine does the rest
14:42 deltasquared might I ask *why* you're interested first in relative co-ords and then how carts move
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14:55 Billre I want to move small builds in game
14:55 deltasquared Billre: so you want to move block structures around? hmm
14:56 Billre I can do that with lua controllers and command blocks but it's rather limited
14:56 Billre Essentially, I'd like to make a flying machine
14:56 deltasquared Billre: the actual code for moving a large structure around would best be done in a proper mod, say using voxelmanip
14:57 deltasquared aha, I thought it was something to do with flying machines
14:57 Billre That would take some learning ... hmmm
14:57 deltasquared many of us would like proper "voxel area entities" but it's non-trivial to do at the engine level
14:57 deltasquared essentially, an entity which represents a world chunk which isn't aligned with the rest of the world
14:57 * deltasquared looks up issue
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15:02 deltasquared ... nope, can't find it
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15:05 twoelk Billre, have you considered mods like Meshnodes, Airship, Flyingships or  Digtron? Links may be found at the bottom of this wiki page: https://wiki.minetest.net/Mods:Vehicles
15:07 ThomasMonroe I don't think airship works properly
15:07 ThomasMonroe but I'm not sure though
15:08 twoelk the information loss on reload problem?
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15:12 Billre thanks twoelk.  I'm looking at meshnode now.   I have used digtron before - it doesn't h ave the issue of information loss.
15:13 deltasquared meshnodes looks cool, that basically looks like the airships mod I've used in minecraft before
15:14 Billre I sometimes fell out of the airship in MC if I was going to fast.
15:15 ThomasMonroe XD
15:15 Billre I took to flying over water so I wouldn't die and to carry a lot of soil so I could get back up to the airship
15:15 deltasquared Billre: it's like minecarts but worse when it flies off without you
15:15 deltasquared GET BACK HEEEEEEEEEEEEEERE
15:17 Billre lol
15:17 blaise nice
15:21 deltasquared it looks like it would be the kind of thing that'd benefit from APIs to make certain kinds of blocks behave sanely, say while underwater.
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15:59 orbea an airship mod, I could use one of those :)
16:00 orbea the one mod I'm really missing from minecraft is the obsidion based gate mod for travelling
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16:39 twoelk-in-office hmm, a wiki page that lists mods that create underground structures, biomes or other fun might be usefull
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16:50 orbea lmao!
16:50 orbea oops, wrong channel...
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17:26 salahzar does anyone know how I can install/use this "mod" https://github.com/arpruss/moon-mapgen-minetest being a mapgen I would expect to be able to put somewhere under a mapgen folder, but didn't find any information on the minetest site or in the readme of this.
17:28 sfan5 there's no dedicated folder for mapgen mods
17:28 sfan5 just put it into the usual folder
17:31 Brackston sfan5 when you say usual folder are you referring to game root or mod folder?
17:31 sfan5 mods/
17:31 Brackston tthanks
17:35 salahzar ok but how it will operate, since it is a mapgen mod how can I create a world with it since mods (as far as I know) are defined at world level?
17:35 salahzar I tried to create a standard world with minetest subgame and then associate this mod
17:36 salahzar As I am trying to teach teachers how to use minetest for using it in classroom, mods like that one are quite interesting since creator did recreate moon surface :)
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18:12 ZenonSeth oh salahzar left
18:12 sfan5 guess they don't want answers then
18:13 ZenonSeth or hopefully, they figured it out
18:13 ZenonSeth btw sfan5, that was your mapgen mod i was referring to, good example as i don't think there are many out there
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18:20 ZenonSeth I'm sure i'm not the only one to have brought this up
18:20 ZenonSeth has anyone considered a central identification system for minetest?
18:20 ZenonSeth maybe just a public-key/username repo?
18:21 deltasquared ZenonSeth: you mean some way to point to a choosable auth server. people get upset if you suggest a "one true authentication server"
18:21 deltasquared but otherwise yes, though it'd need some way to connect to network services from mods, which itself is a security nightmare
18:21 ZenonSeth no
18:21 ZenonSeth i dont meant auth server per-se
18:22 deltasquared ... well?
18:22 ZenonSeth but a central database of public keys (aka from asymetric crypto algorithm) - which servers are free to reference to if they want
18:22 deltasquared ZenonSeth: so, PGP for minetest? :P
18:23 deltasquared if not the whole web of trust thing perhaps
18:23 ZenonSeth kinda i guess
18:23 ZenonSeth sorry what do you mean "not the whole web" ?
18:23 deltasquared ZenonSeth: "web of trust" is a GPG thing, I wouldn't worry about it
18:24 ZenonSeth you mean like the ssl certificate system where there must be a root trusted cert?
18:24 deltasquared so in a sense it's kinda taking the authentication data out of the local server and referencing it from somewhere else, with the extra addition that the remote repository only stores pubkeys and the client holds private keys (so you don't go storing passwords open on the internet)
18:25 deltasquared ZenonSeth: ... I said forget about it, it really doesn't matter. the whole GPG system is a bit overblown for this use case
18:25 ZenonSeth yes, thats how identification works in the world
18:25 deltasquared "in the world" [citation needed] but eh *shrug*
18:25 ZenonSeth uh
18:25 deltasquared ZenonSeth: the remote-ness of the pubkey repository is certainly not typical
18:25 ZenonSeth ok, it works that way in a lot of systems, ssh, gitlab, most things that require digital signing
18:26 deltasquared ZenonSeth: true, but it's usually stored locally on the server in question
18:26 deltasquared you make it sound like you could configure a server to use *another* repository of public keys
18:26 deltasquared at least that's what I got from "central"
18:26 ZenonSeth ok, but my point is if minetest devs agreed that they can have an optional system that servers could use that *could* reference to the ":official" public-key repo
18:27 ZenonSeth you could make it harder for others to pretend to be you, at least on servers that choose to use that optinal system
18:27 deltasquared ZenonSeth: meh, I'd just have it generic and have an "official" repository address. also you might have a hard time convincing them to run such a service, it's gotta be up almost all the time
18:27 deltasquared "them" being the MT devs
18:28 ZenonSeth yes and if oyou let me have food first ,i can describe to you the method of a server using another public repo
18:28 ZenonSeth the method i have in mind anyawy
18:28 deltasquared seems simple enough to me, give it a HTTP address and it downloads pubkeys that way
18:28 ZenonSeth well or git repo, but yes
18:29 ZenonSeth dont even need a service
18:29 deltasquared ZenonSeth: only possible thing with git is propogation delays, how often does it check for updates etc.
18:29 ZenonSeth why did you sound srurposed that "configure a server to use another repository of public keys" - you seem to get the idea
18:29 ZenonSeth no i mean
18:29 ZenonSeth people host webpages on git
18:29 ZenonSeth you could host a list of public keys
18:30 deltasquared ZenonSeth: I apologise if I seemed a tad confrontational, it's just that anything auth related needs poking to ensure it's well fleshed out
18:30 ZenonSeth its fine
18:31 deltasquared ZenonSeth: could be worse, it's not like you were suggesting hand-rolling crypto code or something like that, I would have gone to town then ;)
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18:31 ZenonSeth im not a security expert, but i am a dev, and i've dealt with some ssh stuff at work, so that's what im basing my suggestions on
18:31 ZenonSeth the only issue would be transferring the private key if you want to log in from multiple devices
18:31 deltasquared yeah, the basic pubkey idea is sound, just a case of being able to specify how the server would obtain/look up pubkeys (as opposed to only being local files say)
18:31 ZenonSeth so here's what i'm thinking:
18:33 deltasquared ZenonSeth: eh, transferring privkeys is a categorically hard problem anyway, that's the user's problem to arrange
18:33 deltasquared though, allowing minetest clients to access them in a secure manner poses an interesting problem
18:34 ZenonSeth minetest generates private/public key pair (good, free public libs exist). You have some way to  upload your public key and username combination, possibly with forum-related info since forums are official - so the "official" git repo gets an addition of your username/public key
18:34 deltasquared ZenonSeth: those are details of getting the pubkeys onto the server, the devs won't care about that
18:35 deltasquared they'll only care how to retrieve them once they're present
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18:35 ZenonSeth the server has a reference and optional flag to reference that repo, and check against it - if its on, when someone logs in, the server does the usual "sign this unique data for me", client encrypts unique data with private key, server trries to decrypt with well known public key for your username - if it fails, its not you
18:36 deltasquared details of a registration mechanism can be worked out later, and indeed the authentication "backend" in minetest as it were can be tested without any "official" registration mechanism, it can be worked out later.
18:36 ZenonSeth the unique data is usually some known string + timestamp, to ensure no one can re-use that encrypted package
18:36 ZenonSeth well, true
18:37 ZenonSeth registration mechanism still needs to be ok though, but yea
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18:37 ZenonSeth its more of a problem that if you make registration entirely public, its open to spamming
18:38 ZenonSeth anyway, the rest of it is fairly straight forward
18:38 deltasquared ZenonSeth: that bit about encrypting/decrypting data IIRC is not actually how you prove you have the key, so I wouldn't think too much about that either without at least consulting existing libraries out there
18:38 deltasquared I get the general approach you're trying to come up with though
18:38 deltasquared it would just need handling very carefully
18:39 ZenonSeth why is not how you prove?
18:39 ZenonSeth that is how digital signing works
18:39 deltasquared ZenonSeth: well I might not know the details about it but I would suspect you might not be 100% on the theory either, so again just don't worry about the details of it
18:40 ZenonSeth deltasquared: so you can't tell me why, you just think its wrong, and even if its wrong i shouldn't worry about it?
18:40 deltasquared with crypto, if in doubt, you're probably wrong. you might be right, I just haven't looked into this area myself
18:40 ZenonSeth ok
18:40 deltasquared I just trust ssh keys to work for instance, it's magic to me :P
18:40 ZenonSeth i don't think this conversation is going productive
18:41 ZenonSeth it's not magic
18:41 deltasquared ZenonSeth: it needs someone with knowledge on the issues for instance
18:41 deltasquared ZenonSeth: magic was half joking
18:41 deltasquared I am partly aware of the maths and concepts involved, but I couldn't prove it's soundness for instance.
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18:53 salahzar regarding https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=11&t=13370 Can the author or any other assist me in understanding how to make it work this mod (?) with 0.4.16? I unsuccessfully tried but had big problems in having it working :( Can you please teach me how should I install it and the steps to be able to run the mapgen correctly and to experience it? I need to make a demo to some teachers as a very interesting way to teach moo
18:53 sfan5 try not leaving before having your answer
18:54 sfan5 you will need to install it as a new mod, create a new world (DON'T JOIN), enable the mod and only then join the world
19:01 sofar you can always enable it and remove your generated map (map.sqlite) after to force re-generation
19:01 ZenonSeth he left again right before you answered sofar
19:02 sofar it's fine
19:02 ZenonSeth he's on web, probably just closing the window..
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19:05 ZenonSeth is there an approach you guys would recommend for someone to get familiar with the c++ code?
19:05 Dargod How do I make it so that the function minetest.register_on_chat_message(function(name, message) can handle Unicode?
19:06 sfan5 it can do that by default
19:07 Krock Lua doesn't know about encoding, so nothing to do there.
19:08 Krock ZenonSeth, timing out does not mean they're on the web. It indicates that the connection was lost and not terminated correctly
19:08 ZenonSeth uh i was going by their login being "gateway/web/freenode"
19:10 Dargod hmm, <invalid multibyte string> instead
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19:30 Dargod I duno why, but Unicode symbols not supporting
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