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IRC log for #minetest, 2017-06-09

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Time Nick Message
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00:50 red-inf Hello selmonide
00:53 red-inf slemonide*
01:00 AntumDeluge Can tool/weapon breaking be disabled?
01:02 red-inf Not that I know of
01:04 AntumDeluge Looks like there is a method "add_wear" for tools.
01:04 red-inf You could set the uses variable in toolcaps to 0 to disable wear
01:05 AntumDeluge Okay, I'll check that out.
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01:11 AntumDeluge Thenk you red-inf, that works.
01:11 AntumDeluge *Thank...
01:11 red-inf You're welcome.
01:12 AntumDeluge Do you happen to know how to turn off damage from torches?
01:14 red-inf Comment out the lines?
01:15 AntumDeluge I haven't found the lines. It would be in 'default' right?
01:16 red-inf I don't see any lines where torches would damage you. :/
01:17 AntumDeluge Ya, that's what I've been dealing with. I don't know which lines define the damage dealt.
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01:36 AntumDeluge Hah! I finally figured out what was going on. Torch damage has nothing to do with 'default'. I had the '3d_armor' mod installed & that modified 'default:torch' to cause damage.
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02:03 AntumDeluge Can be disabled in '3d_armor/api.lua'. Just comment out the 'torch' lines.
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03:26 bigfoot547 <3 MinetestBot
03:26 MinetestBot <3 bigfoot547
03:26 bigfoot547 lol
03:36 bigfoot547 Night guys!
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04:41 redblade7 nasty caverealms crashes after upgrading to 0.4.16
04:43 redblade7 joshmars mentions it on the forum
04:43 redblade7 just checked
04:43 redblade7 who's "rn"?
04:43 redblade7 https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.​php?f=11&amp;t=9522&amp;sid=9edbcaf3a​9ca7ba481ad73f813e78a95&amp;start=125
04:50 redblade7 i never knew about the caverealms "flame" crash until now but i'm having random "fallingice" crashes
04:50 redblade7 after upgrading the server to 0.4.16
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04:56 redblade7 i'm kinda new to github, but is there any easy way to download everything including a pull request?
04:56 redblade7 https://github.com/HeroOfTheWin​ds/minetest-caverealms/pull/13
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05:01 redblade7 guess i have to manually edit the files...
05:01 redblade7 no big deal there's only 2
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05:41 redblade7 got some help on #github nm
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10:06 MinetestBot [git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: buildbot: exit 0 at the end of the script 312ca03 https://git.io/vH1VB (2017-06-09T10:05:37Z)
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13:48 MinetestBot [git] DS-Minetest -> minetest/minetest: CSM: Fix documentation error for register_on_*_chat_messages (#5917) 44495ea https://git.io/vH1NZ (2017-06-09T13:48:04Z)
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13:54 bashboi hello what is the license of mtg 0.4.8 textures?
13:55 DS-minetest bashboi: isn't there a license.txt?
13:55 Calinou bashboi: why 0.4.8 specifically? anyway, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/tr​ee/51de4236ab7c0ffc06d41eb66da2e96739687bf0
13:55 Calinou the README of that 0.4.8 minetest_game states it
13:55 Calinou it's mostly CC BY-SA 3.0
13:56 Calinou everything in Minetest is Debian-free
13:56 Calinou and FSF-free
13:57 bashboi isn't FSF releated just to software?
13:57 Calinou they are, indeed
13:57 bashboi so how can textures be FSF-free?
13:58 Calinou nevermind
13:58 bashboi however, i've read the README.txt file of the default mod, but it's kind of controvertial
13:59 bashboi becuase at first stats that all the media are under CC BY-SA 3.0, then it list author of media and different licenses
14:00 bashboi for each media they've made
14:00 Calinou it just means it's CC BY-SA 3.0 if not stated
14:00 Calinou else, it states whatever license is used
14:00 Calinou for each asset
14:00 bashboi ohh alright then thanks
14:00 Calinou this is common practice in open source games, Red Eclipse also does this
14:00 bashboi red eclipse?
14:01 Calinou this :P https://redeclipse.net/
14:02 bashboi nice
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14:06 bashboi see ya
14:12 Fixer debian user?
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14:49 bashboi hello
14:50 bashboi i've noticed that you guys are smart with computer stuff. there are any other channel releted to computer talking with ppl like you? :)
14:55 Raven262 Depends, what part of computer stuff do you want to discuss?
14:56 Fuchs bashboi: uh, plenty on freenode. See   /msg alis help list, but probably you want to be a bit more specific, as there are channels about e.g. programming or about hardware
14:58 ThomasMonroe oh hi Fuchs
14:58 Fuchs hi
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15:13 bashboi programming
15:15 bashboi because i need to acquire knowledge on the android core
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15:21 bashboi -rw.bnlw
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15:29 Alcyone2 Hello world :)
15:29 Alcyone2 Does someone use systemd to manage a minetest server on  Debian ?
15:31 Alcyone2 I have some issue with the service creation
15:33 red-001 what do systemd services require?
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15:49 Alcyone2 red-001, I don't really understand your question in fact
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17:09 LJ Hi
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17:17 LJCrafter Hi
17:22 red-001 https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=18&amp;t=7819&amp;start=75#p276158
17:22 red-001 a few years late
17:22 red-001 !title
17:22 MinetestBot red-001: Minetest 0.4.8 - Minetest Forums
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17:40 KaadmY > minetest 0.4.8 compiled from latest git on linux mint 15 with qjoypad and wired 360 controller
17:40 KaadmY Yeeeeeeeeah, couple years late
17:41 Raven262 xD
17:52 Fixer KaadmY: lol
17:56 LJCrafter Hello, is this the right place for questions about modding?
17:56 Calinou LJCrafter: yes
17:56 LJCrafter ok
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18:01 LJCrafter Is there a way to run a function once, right after all mods have been loaded?
18:01 LJCrafter I mean without using this global_step hook
18:02 LJCrafter or whatever it's called
18:02 calcul0n LJCrafter, you can set a timer with minetest.after(0, handler)
18:03 calcul0n i never tried, but i've seen this in some mods
18:03 LJCrafter Is the timer function guaranted to be run before anything else?
18:04 LJCrafter I mean, abms, global steps, etc
18:04 calcul0n hmm, i can't tell
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18:09 LJCrafter Are global step functions called at a particular time? Like, before/after all other kinds of hooks
18:09 LJCrafter Or is this actually unpredictable
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18:24 DS-minetest LJCrafter: its ~0.1 seconds but it can variate, it's always dtime
18:27 LJCrafter I want to run the function before any abm is run
18:28 LJCrafter But after all the nodes and groups have been properly registered
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19:39 MinetestBot [git] red-001 -> minetest/minetest: Fix sending color codes to clients that don't support them. (#5950) 740b4be https://git.io/vHM91 (2017-06-09T19:39:25Z)
19:47 Wuzzy How do I know when a player rightclicks a node but the metadata string "formspec" is set?
19:49 sfan5 take a look at how chests do it
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20:13 Wuzzy ?!
20:13 Wuzzy sfan5: ?! they just call on_rightclick. ?!
20:14 Wuzzy sfan5: you mean Minetest Game chests? those apparently don't use the meta formspec attribute att all since 0.4.16
20:15 Wuzzy this is not helping :(
20:15 sfan5 well then that means you can't
20:15 sfan5 because otherwise mtg would do this
20:15 Wuzzy :-(
20:16 Wuzzy sounds like an MT issue to me
20:16 Wuzzy it doesnt make sense that on_rightclick is not called just because meta is set
20:16 corvo266 it's not easily fixable
20:17 corvo266 it's a client-sided thing afaik
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21:16 fengshaun what kind of bandwidth do I need to host a server?
21:16 fengshaun let's say for 5 people
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21:27 red-001 fengshaun, not much
21:27 red-001 oh much do you have?
21:27 red-001 how*
21:27 Fixer also depends on mods
21:28 Fixer probably can fit 10 players into 2 mbit without problems
21:28 Fixer or 15
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21:30 red-001 is it 5 people concurrent or in total/per day?
21:31 red-001 in any case the chances are not much
21:31 Fixer totally enough for 5 people
21:31 Fixer for example I measured on heavy modded server about 100kbyte/sec
21:31 Fixer and most servers are not heavy at all, it is much lower
21:32 fengshaun red-001, I have about 5Mbps right now
21:32 fengshaun well, 3 concurrent
21:32 red-001 well if you look at a graph of network usage there is a massive spike when a player connects
21:32 red-001 fengshaun, thats more than enough
21:32 fengshaun oh awesome
21:32 fengshaun thanks a lot!
21:32 Fixer my client DLs has mostly 10 kbyte/sec right now on server
21:33 red-001 do you have a cap on data ussage?
21:33 Fixer peaking at 20 kbyte/sec sometimes
21:33 fengshaun yea, 200GB cap, but I almost never hit it
21:33 red-001 I don't think you will have an issue then
21:34 fengshaun awesome, thanks
21:34 fengshaun those numbers are pretty reasonable
21:34 red-001 unless you want to force a really high defination texture pack
21:34 fengshaun no, I'll leave texture packs to clients
21:35 red-001 media transfer is the biggest user of data for minetest but once a client connects the textures are cached
21:35 fengshaun then I guess textures aren't an issue either
21:36 red-001 not really if you are using the default textures the chances are most people will already have them cached
21:37 fengshaun yea, I'll stick to the default
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21:53 Fixer Wuzzy: https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/​images/1/15/CaptainobviousChooseOption.jpg/revisio​n/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20070526081820
21:54 Wuzzy Fixer: what was that for? O_o
21:54 Fixer Wuzzy: MTG default bloat
21:55 Wuzzy ah
21:55 Wuzzy hehe
21:55 Fixer MTG should really start moving somewhere
21:56 Wuzzy i would be happy if Minetest Game would just be thrown from the default subgame throne.
21:56 Wuzzy then, i'd probably be fine with whatever MTG devs decide to do :)
21:59 Wuzzy Seriously, we should stop treating MTG as if it would be anything special. it is not. not at all.
21:59 Calinou MTG The Gathering
22:01 DS-minetest mtg is just a subgame that can be used and will be updated and co.
22:02 DS-minetest there's not enough dev time to have more reliable subgames
22:02 Fixer just now in comments
22:02 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/kDGniY8.png
22:08 Wuzzy DS-minetest: well, i disagree. MTG is simply too incomplete. it makes MT look bad because it is so inconplete.
22:08 Wuzzy you can not really *play* mtg without at least 1 mod. otherwise it gets boring after 1 hour or so
22:10 Calinou also, have fun admining a server without any mods
22:10 Fixer Calinou: thats also true for MC though
22:10 Calinou yeah
22:10 Calinou Minecraft doesn't intend to fix it, but we can fix it for Minetest
22:11 Fixer yeah
22:11 Wuzzy yeah. MC being bad in an aspect is not an excuse for any thing :)
22:11 Wuzzy MC doesnt even have the most basic protection iirc
22:11 Wuzzy not even "locked chest"
22:11 Fixer Wuzzy: there is this issue opened for discuss https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/515
22:11 Wuzzy and this is really not much to ask. even MTG has it, and this says a lot XD
22:12 Wuzzy at least i agree with the rationale that we currently simply have no really good mobs mod atm :/
22:12 Wuzzy but this is also partially because entities in MT suck
22:13 Wuzzy Fixer: the issue assumes the MTG will stay the default subgame
22:13 Fixer Wuzzy: yeah
22:14 Fixer Wuzzy: i feel like just one paramat working on MTG is not enough
22:14 DS-minetest mtg can't get that much complete since it can't include things that only certain person groups like
22:15 Wuzzy We should start to call it "Paramat's Game". Things will become much clearer from that on. :D
22:15 Fixer my idea was to modularise MTG more, use best mods and add them into MTG without waiting 100 years (mod authors will also have access to repo)
22:15 Fixer Wuzzy: it is not really about paramat, but lack of MTG devs
22:16 Wuzzy MTG devs are intentionally excluded iirc
22:16 Fixer not all
22:16 Wuzzy iirc at the reboot of MTG development, it was decided that only a small circle is considered core dev
22:16 Wuzzy everyone else must go through the usual PR process
22:16 Fixer why not invite more modders into developing MTG itself?
22:17 Wuzzy that was years ago so i may be wrong
22:17 Wuzzy well, i have a loooot to say about MTG and its gameplay
22:17 Wuzzy like poor balancing, or being incomplete, or lack of depth, etc. etc.
22:17 Wuzzy but this is not even my biggest problem
22:17 sfan5 maybe minetest_game just needs another fork that ends up getting merged back
22:17 Fixer Wuzzy: it is simple sandbox with some survival features /Captain Obvious
22:18 Wuzzy my biggest problem is  the apparent lack of direction.
22:18 Fixer why not be more inviting for modders to join developing mtg?
22:18 Wuzzy i am not thoe one to decide that, and i dont even really care
22:18 Wuzzy tbh i dont care that much about MTG.
22:18 Wuzzy MTG gets way too much attention while other subgames remain in obscurity
22:19 Fixer it is 2017... we have carts now (because I whined and krock and sofar did actual work to merge it), we still don't even render f-ing tools in people hands
22:19 Wuzzy im talking about Pixture, Lord of The Test, rpgtest
22:19 Wuzzy and so on
22:20 Wuzzy MTG is lagging behind other subgames. the fact that merging cart took so long is telling
22:20 DS-minetest i agree with sfan5. what if some modders would fork mtg and invited into the fork other modders?
22:20 Fixer boost_cart was more or less good candidate
22:20 Fixer so why not utilise some best mods as well and use them in MTG?
22:20 Wuzzy Almost all subgames do have a crafting guide. guess which subgame doesnt. :P
22:20 DS-minetest just to see how good it would would work
22:21 Fixer Wuzzy: even MC has interactive crafting guide now, I checked
22:21 DS-minetest Wuzzy: many have one but not the same
22:21 Wuzzy the point is, they at least *have* one
22:21 Fixer on the other hand, MTG can't be superheavy too, to avoid that lua OOM insanity
22:21 DS-minetest yeah, but if you have eg. unified inventory, you don't want to have any other craft guide
22:22 Wuzzy yeah, its astonishing that MC got away with no crafting guide until 1.12. WTf, guys?
22:22 DS-minetest so, they have now one?
22:22 DS-minetest meh
22:22 Fixer yeah
22:22 Wuzzy yes
22:22 Fixer i like it, i can finally learn recipe without searching in f-ing wiki
22:22 Wuzzy but i think the crafting system in MC (and as a consequence, MT) was one of the stupidest decisions ever
22:23 Wuzzy this crafting system should never have been cloned in MT
22:23 Wuzzy it is just awful
22:23 Fixer also, current system in MT needs moar hotkeys for crafting
22:24 Wuzzy it could be so simple: Just ak the player to carry X item of type Y, Z items of type A, etc. done! no need for the silly grids or shapes
22:24 Fixer i need to craft stack of something, and i need to press mouse wheel 9 times, my previous mouse wheel already died because of that
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22:24 Fixer 11 times*
22:24 Wuzzy really, just look what almost all RPGs do. crafting is a problem long solved in gaming
22:24 Wuzzy no idea why MC devs decided to reinvent that, lol
22:25 Wuzzy Fixer: yes, nonsense like that
22:25 Wuzzy or the fact that it doesnt freaking scale
22:25 Wuzzy have fun registereing a crafting reecipe which requres you to collect 1000 items of the same type
22:25 Wuzzy :D
22:26 DS-minetest well, it's not that difficult with craftitems
22:26 Wuzzy how so? by registering layer after layer of "intermediate crafting recipe"? :D
22:26 Fixer Wuzzy: MTG can not move out of its safe space right now, for some reasons (including legitimate)
22:26 DS-minetest but for such things other methods like machines can be invented client side
22:26 Fixer Wuzzy: there must be some kind of push for MTG
22:27 Wuzzy Fixer: I do *not* care so much about MTG, esp. with its apparent lack of direction
22:27 Wuzzy I care more about whether or not it deserves its status as *default* subgame
22:28 Wuzzy for me, the answer is a clear "no"
22:28 Fixer Wuzzy: everything depends on it, so probably it will be included for long time, but maybe not as default in future
22:28 Wuzzy i am not saying that MTG development must stop. just throw it from the throne of being default
22:28 DS-minetest a subgame that shall be usable for everyone can't have a real direction
22:29 Wuzzy MTG shoul really just seen as just another subgame
22:29 * DS-minetest doesn't think so
22:29 Fixer Wuzzy: other subgames must be included than, but how to decied?
22:29 Fixer decide
22:29 Fixer what subgame is ready to be shipped alongside with minetest_game
22:29 Wuzzy for starters, use a game which is at least playable
22:29 DS-minetest well, these other subgames would have to be maintained well
22:30 Calinou probably none... that's the proble
22:30 Calinou problem*
22:30 Calinou they all lack consistency
22:30 Calinou minetest_game has a semblance of consistency at least
22:30 Calinou heck, consistency is the #1 problem in open source gaming
22:30 Calinou everyone complains about it, nobody knows how to fix it
22:30 Wuzzy consitency is a lesser sin. i am talking about the real big failures here
22:30 Calinou (without big money to pay a single artist or two)
22:30 Wuzzy 1) missing depth
22:30 Wuzzy 2) missing features
22:30 Wuzzy 3) poor/non-existing balancing
22:31 Wuzzy 4) broken multiplayer
22:31 DS-minetest broken?
22:31 Wuzzy yes
22:31 Wuzzy or have you ever seen a 100% vanilla Minetest Game server?
22:31 DS-minetest because there's no protection?
22:31 DS-minetest i have
22:31 Wuzzy the gameplay is broken
22:31 Wuzzy yes, they exist, but they dont seem to very popular
22:32 Wuzzy multiplayer gameplay is just singleplayer with more players :D
22:32 Wuzzy its complete chaos
22:32 Wuzzy it might appeal to some, but this is defnitely not something which you can seriously call a "game"
22:32 DS-minetest chaos makes fun
22:32 DS-minetest games are chaos
22:33 Fixer Calinou: nah, lots of mtg modded try to fix the mtg*
22:33 Wuzzy Multiplayer is also broken because bread and food is extremely OP
22:33 Fixer mtg itself is very limited
22:33 Fixer it has very basic stuff only
22:33 Wuzzy PvP is just the quetion of who owns more bread
22:33 DS-minetest nobody likes rules in games, that might be a reason why ego shooters are so popular
22:33 Wuzzy Fixer: thats my point!
22:34 Wuzzy DS-minetest: Ego shooter do have rules... lol
22:34 Wuzzy ALL games have rules
22:34 Wuzzy otherwise its not a game
22:34 Wuzzy at the very least, a game need to have a rule so you know who won. :)
22:34 DS-minetest Wuzzy: ehm, i mean something like that you are allowed to kill others and destroy what they made
22:35 Wuzzy yeah, this i more like a sandbox
22:35 DS-minetest it's not about winning
22:35 Wuzzy there is no winner or loser
22:35 Wuzzy nothing against sandboxes
22:35 Wuzzy Example: Counter-strike is a game because there is always a end game result with winner, loser or draw
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22:36 Wuzzy MTG or MC are not games because they are open-ended
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22:36 Wuzzy ok MC maybe less a sandbox if you count the ender dragon
22:37 DS-minetest pff, the ender dragon is just a way to show the credits
22:37 Wuzzy yeah
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22:37 Wuzzy this is just another random challenge but its not really a *serious* goal. the core is still sandbox
22:38 Wuzzy if MC never had that dragon, MC would still be mostly the same
22:38 Wuzzy anyway
22:38 Fixer MC has something special too, liquids affecting players/mobs in various ways/ slippery ice, etc
22:39 Wuzzy our liquids are actually astoninishnly similar to MC's
22:39 Wuzzy flowing items. well, this has been implemented in some mods even
22:39 Fixer but they don't push items/mobs/ (except down)
22:39 Fixer you can't utilise it in automation etc
22:40 Wuzzy in MineClone 2 i have flowing items
22:40 Fixer that part of MC is pretty clever
22:40 Fixer including redstone
22:40 Wuzzy tbh i dont really like redstone
22:40 Wuzzy I think mesecons is a much better approach
22:40 Wuzzy redstone has so many "gotchas" in its design
22:40 Fixer yeah, but it is not in MTG :D
22:41 Wuzzy also, no vertical redstone. mesecons has vertical wires
22:41 Wuzzy mesecons, not redstone is the way to go, IMO
22:41 Fixer Wuzzy: redstone/mesecons/don'tcare - not in default :(
22:41 DS-minetest yeah, in mt everything can be there without that anything does something with it
22:42 DS-minetest mt ~= mc
22:42 Wuzzy Fixer: why do you only care about one subgame?
22:42 Fixer Wuzzy: because it is only one shipped right now :D
22:43 DS-minetest what about minimal?
22:43 DS-minetest heh
22:43 Wuzzy lol
22:43 Fixer minimal is for debug
22:43 Wuzzy No. Minimal is an AWESOME subgame. drop everything NOW! You won'T believe me how AWEOME it is!!1111!1oneone
22:44 Wuzzy so many features
22:44 * DS-minetest likes minimal's textures
22:45 Wuzzy IMO it is a huge mistake to concentrate all efforts on MTG only. i think we should more advertise MT as this what is actually *IS*: an engine
22:45 Wuzzy other subgames should be made more visible in general
22:45 Wuzzy at least the player should be made *aware* that there are at least other subgames besides Mintest Game
22:46 Wuzzy currently, many many players still equate MT to MTG, although this is far from the truth now
22:46 Wuzzy not really surprising how the homepage fails to show even one non-MTG screenshot :(
22:46 Fixer Wuzzy: and 95% of them are just modded MTG %)
22:46 DS-minetest +
22:47 Wuzzy that is simply not true
22:47 DS-minetest if there wasn't mtg there would be no good subgame for minetest and minetest would die
22:47 Wuzzy just look at http://wiki.minetest.net/List_of_Subgames and sort by type. The type "improvement" is FAR from 95%
22:48 Wuzzy I do NOT suggest to kill MTG. just give other subgames a chance :)
22:48 Wuzzy hmm the main menu also fail to even mention the exitance of other subgame
22:48 Wuzzy this is bad
22:48 Wuzzy and the weird icons at the bottom are not obvious
22:49 Wuzzy the bottom line is, nobody really knows what minetest is until you spend a lot of time in the wiki first :D
22:49 DS-minetest not only "improvement" typed subgames have mtg as base
22:49 Fixer Wuzzy: "Just one more year and then you will be haaappyyyy" (c)
22:49 Fixer Wuzzy: (looped)
22:50 Wuzzy its true that MTG gets forked a lot. not 95% but still a lot
22:50 Wuzzy but it is not surprising at all
22:51 Wuzzy given its incompleteness. it just means many people feel MTG is incomplete (which it is)
22:52 Wuzzy but yeah. I fear if anything big will be done about MTG, it will probably only be replaced with a subgame which is the most "conservative" and adds the least features
22:52 Fixer lol
22:52 Wuzzy i recall when Minetet NeXt became Minetest Game
22:52 DS-minetest Fixer: what do you mean? why will he be happy?
22:52 Wuzzy of all possible choices at that time, it was the subgame with the least additions
22:52 Wuzzy I voted for Carbone.
22:53 Wuzzy probably Carbone didnt make it because it had mobs ... lol
22:53 Fixer DS-minetest: wait just one more and then you will be haaaaaaaaaaapy, just wait a little
22:53 Fixer DS-minetest: i waited 6 years for official carts
22:53 DS-minetest ah
22:53 Wuzzy Exactly! This is the stuff I'm talking about
22:53 Wuzzy i often feel MTG is not heading anywhere
22:53 Wuzzy I disagree with the notion of "lack of dev time" as well
22:54 DS-minetest mtg is a useful modding base imo
22:54 Wuzzy the development process is just very painful for outiders
22:54 Wuzzy Okay here I have to agree
22:54 Wuzzy MTG is very strong when it comes to modding.
22:54 Wuzzy but that doesn't make a *game*
22:54 Fixer Wuzzy: but clearly it is lack of dev time, look who is working on MTG recently, just very few people at most, very low activity
22:55 Wuzzy yes, it is true
22:55 Fixer it is literally dormant right now
22:55 Wuzzy but for outsiders MTG developemnt is painful
22:55 DS-minetest the problem is that there are not that many people who's time is useful
22:55 Wuzzy EVERY nontrivial PR has to go through review
22:56 Wuzzy even if you are willing to spend time, its a battle to get your stuff in
22:56 DS-minetest everything has to be clean
22:56 Wuzzy it was even quite a battle to get the sandstones in :D
22:56 Fixer Wuzzy: yeah lol
22:56 Wuzzy its not a surprie that development is so slow
22:56 Fixer Wuzzy: sandstones, Carl
22:56 Wuzzy if you have to review every single commit
22:56 Fixer Wuzzy: and there are mobs, ambience, and a lot more along the way needed
22:56 Wuzzy nothing against QA but I think you can also overdo it :)
22:57 DS-minetest ambiance shouldn't come alone
22:57 Wuzzy in anycase, this review process is painfully slow and seriously eat away motivation of outsiders
22:57 Fixer more sounds
22:58 DS-minetest there always have to be things that produce the sound
22:58 Fixer Wuzzy: mtg should be more open to anyone
22:58 Wuzzy i dont know if this is going to help much
22:58 bwarden joined #minetest
22:58 * DS-minetest likes sounds, even if they seem to be stupid on the dirst moment
22:58 Wuzzy without a strong direction
22:59 Wuzzy ambience would be nice, but I think a lot of engine change is needed here
22:59 Wuzzy i have some ideas how to do ambience, and no, the answer is not client mods :D
22:59 Fixer JUST ONE MORE YEAR
22:59 Fixer AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY
22:59 Fixer (maybe)
22:59 Fixer (throw a dice)
22:59 Wuzzy you rolled a 1
23:00 DS-minetest Wuzzy: what ideas?
23:00 Fixer Wuzzy: review is very useful, MTG itself should be more open to suggestions from modding community, to include more stuff into it (probably)
23:00 Wuzzy one idea was that you can assign a looped sound to a node for its lifetime
23:01 Wuzzy this would make it super easy to add sounds produced by single nodes
23:01 Wuzzy torches, furnaces, engine humming, etc
23:01 DS-minetest hm, interesting idea
23:01 DS-minetest these can already be made by lbm
23:01 Fixer Wuzzy: it is server-side it seems
23:02 Wuzzy hmmmm are you sure?
23:02 Wuzzy by LBM? it is critically important that the sound stops when the node is destroyed
23:02 Wuzzy it alo need to be conittent after rejoins /restarts of course
23:02 DS-minetest yeah, but to start the lbm
23:02 DS-minetest ehm, i mean start the sound
23:03 Wuzzy Fixer: no, it does not need to be server side
23:03 DS-minetest but the PR with the once per session lbm would be good
23:03 jin_xi joined #minetest
23:03 Wuzzy i am imaginigng that this is just another field in the sounds={} table
23:03 Fixer Wuzzy: but it is now it seems
23:03 Wuzzy the client knows the node definition beforehand and so can directly start to play the looped sound as soon it detects the node
23:04 Wuzzy the only thing the server needs to send is the nodes itself, which it already does
23:04 Fixer Wuzzy: it does not without CSM imho
23:04 Wuzzy Fixer: yes, it does not involve client mods, thats the beauty :)
23:04 Wuzzy how many of you use client mods by the way?
23:05 Fixer i'm using 1 mod: chat6
23:05 * DS-minetest
23:05 Wuzzy i am not really impressed by the feature so far, but i have not bothered to actually try it
23:05 Wuzzy what is chat6?
23:05 DS-minetest it can be useful
23:05 Wuzzy did we have chat5, chat4, chat3? :D
23:05 DS-minetest chat6 can only be found on github
23:05 Fixer Wuzzy: https://github.com/minetest/mine​test_game/tree/master/mods/fire :trollface:
23:05 DS-minetest i think there's a chat2
23:06 Wuzzy i hate it if mods disappear into the oblivion of code which you mere mortals call GitHub
23:06 Wuzzy insted of properly posting it on the forums
23:07 Fixer Wuzzy: better post in forum and on github
23:07 DS-minetest +
23:07 Wuzzy Fixer: yes, thats what i meant. x
23:07 DS-minetest github is very useful for dev
23:07 Fixer github is not immortal
23:08 Wuzzy im not attacking GH, im just attacking the practice of letting mods disappear into obscurity
23:08 Wuzzy GH does not matter here
23:08 Wuzzy could also be bitbucket, repo.or.cz or whatever
23:08 Jordach joined #minetest
23:09 Wuzzy Fixer: I still think the fire code is quite long, ust for a simple ambience sound. this use case is common enough that I think it should be turned into a core API
23:09 Wuzzy the general *idea* of what the fire mod does is fine.
23:10 Wuzzy its just not portable. if you want to repeat that for water sounds, leaves rustling, etc it'll get ugly soon
23:10 Wuzzy thus → core Lua API
23:11 DS-minetest so, builtin
23:11 Wuzzy exactly
23:11 Wuzzy I strongly believe Minetest should more focus on providing good core features, rather than letting modders repeat the basic features in mods over and over and over again
23:11 Wuzzy and i think this is already done to quite a good extent
23:12 DS-minetest yeah, but mods can provide such apis
23:12 Wuzzy true, but it quickly degenerates into fragmentation
23:12 DS-minetest i already did it, eg. csm_com
23:12 Wuzzy in practice, many mods try to reinvent the wheel which is not good
23:12 DS-minetest then we have to make a modpack out of many things
23:13 Wuzzy just loon on how absurdly many mob mods we have
23:13 Wuzzy there is also not really any standard way on how to do ambience
23:14 Wuzzy APIs from Lua mods can be useful, but I tend to shy away from wrappers
23:14 Wuzzy esp if the feature in question could have  totally be core/builtin
23:15 Wuzzy DS-minetest: okay. do u maybe have an idea where mtg should be heading to?
23:16 * DS-minetest likes the current way, it's a base which can be extended very easily woth mods
23:16 DS-minetest with*
23:16 DS-minetest also it has to stay small and lightweight
23:17 Wuzzy DS-minetest: if MTG is intended as a modding base, fine. let it be that way. i can live with that
23:18 Wuzzy but it is clearly a very dumb choice for a default subgame then
23:18 Wuzzy newbies are not going to think well about a MTG because its incomplete. they dont care that its incomplete by design
23:19 Wuzzy newbies have a reasonable expectation to get a more or less *playable* game/sandbox
23:20 DS-minetest what if mods would be included to minetest?
23:20 Wuzzy btw: Even a modding base needs to get its basic balancing right. no point in extending what is basically a rotten core
23:20 Wuzzy mtg fails in basic balancing as well
23:21 DS-minetest yeah mtg has some/many mistakes. eg. flowers
23:21 Wuzzy namely: food insta-heals you. mese axe BETTER than diamond axe. wooden axe/shovel essentially trash. braindead bronze crafting. and so on
23:21 Wuzzy food is the biggest sin imo. it is wAY too op
23:22 Wuzzy PvP is pretty pointless if both players have hundreds of bread in their hotbar. :D
23:22 DS-minetest well, hunger is just not implemented yet
23:23 DS-minetest and pvp is not good yet in minetest, think about knockback
23:23 DS-minetest the player is too static
23:23 Wuzzy most of the "problems" in MTG are solved long time ago. but in different subgames :D
23:23 Wuzzy knockback is actually a missing MT feature.
23:23 Wuzzy but yes, very important, I agree
23:23 Wuzzy and no, not because of MC, its because its a good mechanic.
23:24 WillMoogle joined #minetest
23:24 DS-minetest we shouldn't think about mc when changing minetest
23:25 Wuzzy we also should not use it as a reason *not* to add features just because MC happens to have it, too
23:25 DS-minetest or we should simply be not afraid of maybe copying
23:25 Wuzzy thats the same fallacy, just the other way round
23:25 DS-minetest +
23:25 Wuzzy well, in that case you should give MineClone 2 a try
23:25 Wuzzy :D
23:26 DS-minetest i don't like mcl2 much yet
23:26 DS-minetest it has many problems
23:26 Wuzzy of course
23:26 LazyJ joined #minetest
23:26 Wuzzy i fully understand. so many bugs. so many tasks to do
23:26 Wuzzy its like a never ending journey
23:27 Wuzzy when have you tried it the last time?
23:27 DS-minetest umm, 2 weeks ago maybe
23:27 Wuzzy i gues when I added mobs and implemented non-v6 biomes MCL2 will start to become interesting
23:28 DS-minetest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf1WT8VEZxk
23:29 DS-minetest perhaps it would be good to scale the textures down
23:29 Wuzzy if you can me name me a good 16×16 MC texutre pack which is also free/libre, I'll take it!
23:29 Wuzzy probably
23:30 DS-minetest scale the current textures down
23:30 Wuzzy the thing is, i havent found any good texture pack yet :(
23:30 Wuzzy i am not so sure
23:30 Wuzzy its like asking to be sued, i guess
23:30 Wuzzy faithful already looks very similar to MC
23:30 DS-minetest yeah, but pixely is better
23:31 Wuzzy iirc i actually tried scaling down but it really look like shit for the items
23:31 DS-minetest in dev of mcl2 you should not go that fast with the features
23:31 Wuzzy LOL
23:31 DS-minetest correct the tools by hand
23:32 DS-minetest not many features but stable is better than something nearly unplayable
23:32 Wuzzy i am not an artiest
23:32 Wuzzy i could *bet* there must be at least ONE libre 16×16 texure pack out there
23:33 Wuzzy well, thats why i call it "alpha"
23:33 Wuzzy but yeah. i am currently in bugfixing phase anyway
23:33 Wuzzy and i shoudl try to cut out some of the eternally broken features
23:33 Wuzzy esp mob
23:33 Wuzzy so at least i partially agree
23:36 DS-minetest you have to make your subgame serious in code
23:36 Wuzzy what do you mean with THAT?
23:36 DS-minetest experiments are not that much used
23:36 Wuzzy "-- the following code is not for amusement. ITS SERIOUS BUSINES"? :D
23:36 DS-minetest lol
23:37 Wuzzy sry still cant follow you
23:37 DS-minetest i mean it has to be totally clean to be taken serious
23:37 Wuzzy as in "bugfree"?
23:37 DS-minetest yeah, and stable
23:37 Wuzzy yeah thats why im in bugfixing phase now
23:37 DS-minetest but the code style also eg.
23:38 Wuzzy i have no coding sytle guidelines so i cant violate any :D
23:38 Wuzzy i know i probably sound crazy to you
23:38 Wuzzy at least i try to keep indents sane
23:38 DS-minetest well, but make it look ehm, … … clean…
23:38 Wuzzy and i nuke all minetest.env nonsense i find
23:39 Wuzzy sorry u have to be more specific on that
23:39 Wuzzy do u have a criticism on the architecture? mod dependencies? or what?
23:40 DS-minetest i haven't looked yet in code
23:40 Wuzzy -_-
23:40 DS-minetest sry >_<
23:41 Wuzzy well i have worked on the very beginning on getting the architecture right
23:41 jsgrant_ joined #minetest
23:41 Wuzzy one of the first things i did was debloating default
23:41 Wuzzy it was totally worth it
23:41 Wuzzy mods follow the principle of 1 mod = 1 task (at least as good as I can)
23:42 Wuzzy yes, technically, MineClone 2 is, in fact, a fork of Minetest Game
23:42 Wuzzy but it is so massively different that it has nearly no common code anymore
23:42 Wuzzy its just a hisotirc fun fact :D
23:43 Wuzzy no, wait. it is actually a fork of MineClone, which was a fork of Minetest Game. argh.
23:44 DS-minetest perhaps, just perhaps, starting all over again would have been better
23:44 Wuzzy why?
23:44 Wuzzy no. sorry. just no
23:44 DS-minetest just that everything is correctly and thought through and that you can't be lazy letting something as it is
23:44 Wuzzy the mere existance of MineClone was the main reason why I was motivated enough to start in the first place
23:45 Jordach joined #minetest
23:45 Wuzzy because it already had many features, and even textures
23:45 Wuzzy i see no reason why i would thrown mineclone away. it was a good starting point for me
23:46 DS-minetest ok
23:46 Wuzzy and MineClone 2 is also technically very different from MineClone
23:46 Wuzzy even the mod names arent the same anymore
23:47 DS-minetest hah
23:47 Wuzzy but i agree on your point of first getting the basics right. yes, i have the tendency to get lost in details. :D
23:47 DS-minetest details are good but details everywhere
23:48 Wuzzy its partially also in the nature of MC, actually.
23:48 Wuzzy its not exactly a simple game/sandbox :D
23:48 DS-minetest imagine an empty room with white walls and co. the only thing in it is a sculpture, what will you like at this room?
23:49 Wuzzy the door
23:49 DS-minetest i never said anything about a door :P. oh, and the walls are very simple
23:50 Wuzzy hey, let me out of the prison! you monster.
23:50 DS-minetest heh
23:50 DS-minetest imagine you have no clip and can fly
23:51 Wuzzy "I believe I can noclip."
23:51 Wuzzy ... no, wait
23:55 DS-minetest Wuzzy: if you want to make mcl2 even more like mc, use the player_anim mod (if you don't do already)
23:55 Wuzzy player_anim?
23:55 DS-minetest that mod that sets the bones in lua
23:55 Wuzzy oh, nice
23:55 Wuzzy I gladly take suggestions to include good mods into MCL2.
23:56 Wuzzy less work for me =)
23:56 * DS-minetest is leaving soon since it's already very late
23:56 Wuzzy mobs_mc is also definitely on my TODO list
23:56 Wuzzy btw do you know a mod which is even better than Mobs Redo?
23:56 DS-minetest hm, mesecons?
23:56 Wuzzy hehe
23:57 Wuzzy MineClone 2 has a forked Mesecons. not sure if this was the smartest idea
23:57 DS-minetest redstone can use its power state
23:57 Wuzzy needs a complete rework because one crucial feature is missing: power level
23:57 DS-minetest it makes wires easier
23:58 Wuzzy what other subgames do  you play?
23:59 DS-minetest i liked realtest
23:59 Wuzzy me, too. so sad its mostly broken now :(
23:59 DS-minetest and I'm watching farlands since it has good media
23:59 Wuzzy i really loved the fact it has so many ores
23:59 DS-minetest yeah, and good oregen
23:59 DS-minetest and co.
23:59 Wuzzy much better underground than any other subgame

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