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IRC log for #minetest, 2017-05-01

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All times shown according to UTC.

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03:51 kaeza_ Greetings
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06:22 * Taose waves
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10:41 Calinou hi
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11:01 chatter29 hey guys
11:01 chatter29 allah is doing
11:01 chatter29 sun is not doing allah is doing
11:01 chatter29 to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
11:04 PureTryOut[m] I always wonder why the people behind those bots think people will actually convert from that
11:09 sfan5 maybe they'll install gentoo
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11:39 josema Hi all. Thank you
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11:55 Markow Wow, I just viewed videos on the new Minetest Advanced Trains Mod, looks great.
11:56 Markow This will really make MT even more enjoyable.
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12:14 fireglow hey guys
12:14 fireglow gentoo is doing
12:14 fireglow debian is not doing gentoo is doing
12:18 Calinou to accept Stallman say that you bear witness that…?
12:18 Calinou :P
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14:02 dzho PureTryOut[m]: or it could be a false flag thing to stir up resentment against Muslims?
14:02 dzho or, you know, proselytizing religions don't require necessarily that you succeed, just that you make the attempt.
14:03 PureTryOut[m] strange
14:03 dzho if they put that out there, they've dont their part, and if you don't accept it, then it's on you. If you've never heard the pitch, then you can't be held responsible. This way, you can.  Sort of like the Miranda reading (US) or the cautions (UK)
14:04 dzho "would you like to play a game?"
14:04 dzho "how about Eternal Damnation?"
14:04 dzho "a strange game, the only winning move is not to play"
14:05 dzho how about a nice game of minetest
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15:06 IhrFussel The "init packet" error is very misleading when players try to connect while the server is about to boot/shutdown ... it tells them that the server version would be too old (<0.4.13) which is not right
15:07 IhrFussel Surely there must be a way to simply tell the client "Server is not ready yet"
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15:13 sfan5 it tells that that it might be a possibility
15:13 sfan5 not that it definitely is that way
15:14 mmuller Interesting, I wonder if that's what I ran into yesterday.
15:15 IhrFussel sfan5, it doesn't matter, it's misleading...I have to read this stupid complaint all the time "hey i got an error telling that your server version is too old, please update"
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15:16 IhrFussel It shouldn't be impossible to simply check WHAT exactly doesn't send/load and then tell the client accordingly
15:16 sfan5 IhrFussel: maybe the message could be avoided for serverlist servers where we know their version...
15:16 sfan5 it's not impossible
15:16 sfan5 but telling the client "the server did not answer TOSERVER_INIT2" is not going to help anyone
15:17 IhrFussel No that's why I said "The server isn't responding, please try again later" would be helpful
15:18 IhrFussel Or any kind of "server cannot answer your request right now" ... the exact phrase wouldn't matter to me
15:19 sfan5 that's too vague
15:19 sfan5 the server could be down
15:20 IhrFussel "The server ignored your request, please try again later"?
15:21 sfan5 a "server" does not necessarily exist
15:21 sfan5 you could be sending packets right into the void
15:21 IhrFussel But the players refer to it as "server" since they want to connect to a "server"
15:21 srifqi "The destination ignored your request, please try again later." (?)
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15:22 IhrFussel Not sure what's wrong with using "server" you do the same already in the code when it experiences an internal error "This server experienced an internal error..."
15:23 sfan5 that's something different
15:23 sfan5 at this stage we don't even know where there actually IS any server to answer our request
15:23 sfan5 whether
15:23 sfan5 *
15:24 IhrFussel sfan5, so you're telling me there is NO WAY to first check the existance of the destination and THEN check the ready state?
15:24 srifqi How about "destination"?
15:24 sfan5 yes
15:25 sfan5 you send a packet to somewhere
15:25 sfan5 if the server answers: good
15:25 sfan5 if not: there might not even be a server there, the packet might've been lost, the server might not be ready
15:25 IhrFussel But the init packet error is different from "connection timed out"
15:25 IhrFussel So the client must've communicated with the server already or not?
15:25 sfan5 on the technical side: no
15:26 IhrFussel Then how does it know the server exists but didn't send packet X?
15:26 sfan5 it doesn't
15:27 sfan5 that's just a possiblity
15:30 IhrFussel sfan5, that can't be .. I NEVER see this error when I try to connect to a server that's already down/not reachable, but I see it almost always when I try to connect WHILE the server is in its booting/shutdown process
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15:30 sfan5 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
15:30 DS-minetest hi MinetestBot
15:30 MinetestBot Hi DS-minetest
15:30 fireglow hi DS-minetest
15:31 DS-minetest Hi fireglow
15:31 IhrFussel So I'm pretty sure there must be some form of communication between client <-> server BEFORE the server sends the init packet
15:32 IhrFussel I'll open an issue about it now and I hope more people agree
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15:32 srifqi Wait, Minetest doesn't have that communication "check"?
15:34 IhrFussel srifqi, that is not possible since the client would just guess randomly whether it needs to show "connection timed out" or "init packet error" and that is incorrect
15:35 IhrFussel When my client sees "server didn't send init packet" it already KNOWS the server is there but for some reason cannot respond
15:37 srifqi Can we ping and/or check port?
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15:47 IhrFussel In case anyone wonders why this is such a big deal: Did you ever use the biome_lib mod on your server? It can take a LONG TIME until your server actually shuts down when it crashes after several days
15:47 fireglow yeah, I've noticed that.
15:48 fireglow IhrFussel: are you saying the long delay is caused by biome_lib?
15:48 IhrFussel Yes it even says that in the log..one sec
15:49 fireglow hmm!
15:51 IhrFussel fireglow, I can't find it right now cause I cleaned my log recently but it says something like "Playing out X trees, X plants" etc ... basically it wants to finish all the growth processes
15:53 IhrFussel And the longer the mod ran the longer it will take to finish all those processes...of course the amount of players triggering those processes also matters
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15:54 fireglow hmm!
15:57 IhrFussel fireglow, there IS however a setting for the mod that disables this behavior but I'm not sure how risky it is
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15:58 cx384 hi
16:00 fireglow hmm
16:00 IhrFussel The comment above the functions says "-- Play out the entire log all at once on shutdown to prevent unpopulated map areas"
16:00 fireglow hi cx384
16:00 IhrFussel So if you want to risk unpopulated map areas you could disable it
16:09 calculon IhrFussel, maybe a stupid idea, but i see many servers which automatically restart every day
16:09 calculon probably for this kind of problem
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16:18 IhrFussel calculon, I think the bigger problem is that players are seeing incorrect and misleading error messages when they want to join a server that currently has the biome_lib mod run on shutdown for example
16:19 calculon i see
16:20 IhrFussel Cause the client doesn't in any way tell them "sorry this server seems to be busy right now" instead it tells them "the server is likely very old please tell the admin to update"
16:22 calculon ho yes, i sometimes see this message
16:22 IhrFussel Well "busy" might be wrong too...but you get the idea I think: The client should tell the user that the server for SOME reason cannot respond
16:22 calculon yep
16:23 IhrFussel But at the same time the error message should make sure that the server EXISTS
16:24 IhrFussel Cause if it doesn't exist the client shows "Connection timed out." which is fine
16:25 IhrFussel Exist as in "reachable" of course the server may exist and the process may just not run on the machine
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16:31 juli DS-minetest?
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16:34 juli benrob0329__?
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16:34 benrob0329__ juli?
16:35 juli do u have read my answer on the mesecons issue?
16:35 juli i mean why all people think digilines can be used everytime?
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16:42 cx384 test123
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16:43 benrob0329__ juli: i guarentee you i could do something even more evil with mesecons
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16:44 juli yeah but i know some servers which will never use digilines because of this
16:45 juli and why i should not make such things useable also on such servers?
16:45 cx384 Jungle server?
16:46 juli yeah or mars server ...
16:46 juli or buildersworld
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17:09 sfan5 huh til minetest forks exist on other platforms than mobile: https://mrcerealguy.itch.io/stonecraft
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17:11 Calinou "Thanks a lot to the minetest community, to "Notch" the creator of Minecraft and to Linus Torvalds, the creator of the free operating system Linux."
17:11 Calinou lol
17:11 Calinou Google Forms for bug reporting
17:11 Calinou lol²
17:12 Calinou Flickr for image albums
17:12 Calinou lol³
17:17 nore Yet another GPL fork :/
17:18 sfan5 umm it says lgpl
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17:19 PureTryOut[m] I wonder how that fork will be different
17:19 IhrFussel Why would you thank Notch for Infiniminer though?
17:20 nore It does?
17:20 sfan5 nore: "Stonecraft is open-source and free, released under the GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL)."
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17:21 nore sfan5: hmm, ok
17:21 nore Also, lol: https://github.com/MrCerealGuy/Stonecraft/issues/7
17:22 nore It looks like it's another "let's throw lots of mods together and rebrand it"
17:22 Krock that font is almost readable
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17:23 PureTryOut[m] I wonder why he would fork MT if he isn't going to change anything to the base
17:23 nore Also, lol² they added a C++ mod API then removed it
17:24 Calinou it's not like that fork has added value anyway
17:25 PureTryOut[m] s/they/he
17:25 PureTryOut[m] and that cpp "mod" was just Lua code with the ".cpp" extension
17:26 Calinou commit message of the year: https://github.com/MrCerealGuy/Stonecraft/com​mit/ffb779cd3d45c6ef194f5a1412d7c38a986f17ea
17:26 IhrFussel Couldn't ANY casual really fork Minetest without even knowing what they're doing?
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17:28 PureTryOut[m] ooh god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzgse6PZPss
17:28 sfan5 !title
17:28 MinetestBot sfan5: MINECRAFT BUT NOT REALLY - YouTube
17:28 nore /* WARNING: This file was automatically generated by lua2c. */ lolwat
17:29 nore every single "cpp mod" looks like that
17:30 IhrFussel Guys it has happened 3 times now since yesterday that my Minetest server SUDDENLY let's everyone time out without crashing ... the logs state "2017-05-01 19:27:26: ERROR[Server]: Got packet command: 65 for peer id 248 but client isn't active yet. Dropping packet" ... when it happened the first time I thought maybe my hoster lost internet connection, but now I'm not sure anymore
17:32 sfan5 nore: link?
17:33 sfan5 IhrFussel: run a RelWithDebInfo build and run it in gdb
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17:33 nore https://github.com/MrCerealGuy/Stonecraft/c​ommit/764c25e59a4354f3c29c1e00e0ede0e5bc49e​ab9#diff-ad0cbf8e7db92efa6d524bf6ad89d982
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17:34 PureTryOut[m] the hell, there are actually people playing that thing
17:34 sfan5 and that worked o.O?
17:36 PureTryOut[m] I guess it didn't, which is probably why he removed it
17:39 Krock this guy must have spent quite much time in implementing that
17:39 nore (however, having a *real* C++ API might be useful, although not easy and definitely needed thinking about security)
17:40 sfan5 Krock: not really, it looks like he just thread a conversion script at it
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17:40 PureTryOut[m] sfan5++
17:40 IhrFussel nore, < 1 % of people would use it I imagine
17:40 Krock yeah, the formatting is horrible and nothing really commented
17:40 sfan5 s/thread/threw/
17:41 nore Krock: yeah, it's a conversion script (lua2c as said in the comment at the top)
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17:41 Krock apparently I can't read :3
17:42 nore but I mean, that's completely useless
17:42 nore it's probably even worse for execution time if you use luaJIT
17:42 sfan5 yeah
17:43 nore I mean luaJIT is *fast*
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17:44 nore the almost only advantages of a C++ API would be not having the memory limit, the cost of the gc, and having integers and not these *** floating point numbers everywhere
17:44 nore (also, faster API calls)
17:44 sfan5 lua 5.3 has true ints
17:44 sfan5 but yeah a c++ api might be nice for some niches
17:46 IhrFussel sfan5, does Minetest use 5.3 now?
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17:47 sfan5 minetest can't use anything above lua 5.1
17:47 IhrFussel Cause of Irrlicht?
17:47 PureTryOut[m] "fast", but seemingly not fast enough to make a minimap...
17:47 sfan5 no that's unrelated to irrlicht
17:48 nore PureTryOut[m]: it would be
17:48 IhrFussel Deprecated functions?
17:48 nore but there is no API for drawing textures
17:48 PureTryOut[m] nore: I got told like a few days ago that it's not
17:48 nore so you have to use hacks with composing one image per pixel and this is slow
17:49 nore PureTryOut[m]: link?
17:49 PureTryOut[m] eeuh sorry no
17:49 PureTryOut[m] somewhere in the IRC logs probably
17:50 Calinou IhrFussel: LuaJIT is on 5.1 (and plans to implement 5.2?) currently: http://luajit.org/
17:50 Calinou and LuaJIT is where it's at for us, so…
17:50 sfan5 luajit implements parts of 5.2
17:52 IhrFussel Calinou, and LuaJIT is essential for Minetest? Cause I see "just disable LuaJIT" in a lot of threads
17:53 sfan5 it's not essential
17:53 sfan5 it speeds up mods a lot, however it has some limitations that can break stuff
17:54 IhrFussel Does it speed up EVERY function or certain ones?
17:54 sfan5 it helps with everything
18:04 Calinou yeah, almost nothing is slowed down by LuaJIT, it's only a plus
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18:36 kaeza Greetings
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18:50 Out`Of`Control hi
18:53 MinetestBot [git] timsoftgit -> minetest/minetest_game: Stairs: Add snowblock and ice stairs and slabs 519d166 https://git.io/v98mg (2017-05-01T18:48:54Z)
18:53 MinetestBot [git] Ferk -> minetest/minetest_game: TNT: Gunpowder (and tnt.burn) will trigger the on_ignite of nodes be91212 https://git.io/v98m2 (2017-05-01T18:38:38Z)
18:53 MinetestBot [git] sofar -> minetest/minetest_game: Improve Chest appearance - opening chests. 011ad78 https://git.io/v98ma (2017-05-01T18:36:35Z)
18:54 cx384 Dose the minetest developing work like a banana principle? What do you think?
18:55 sfan5 what is this "banana principle"
18:56 cx384 this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_beta
18:56 Calinou Minetest Banana 0.4.15
18:56 fireglow I'm waiting for melons
18:56 Krock Bananatest 0.5.0
18:57 Calinou More Bananas [morebananas]
18:57 Krock cx384, that's very common in rolling release projects, like on Git
18:57 cx384 oh ok
18:58 Calinou stability is not very much of an issue in games
18:58 Calinou which is why development versions are often used
18:58 Calinou "this is a game, not a banking application", a wise man once said
18:58 Krock RMS?
18:58 fireglow a _wise_ man
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18:58 kaeza kek
18:58 Krock rms is wise
18:59 Krock he's god
18:59 Calinou not RMS :)
18:59 fireglow pity, Krock
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19:09 Fixer Alohatest
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19:25 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest_game: Fix merging mistake (crash in "stairs") ec295a0 https://git.io/v98s7 (2017-05-01T19:23:44Z)
19:28 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest_game: Fix merging mistake (crash in "stairs") 6737952 https://git.io/v98GZ (2017-05-01T19:26:10Z)
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20:05 paramat stonecraft is stuffed full of heavy mods, but 'Fast and able to run on old and slow hardware' and 'lightning-fast map generator'
20:05 paramat 'near-infinite voxel world'
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20:07 paramat crumbs our website says 'near-infinite' too =/
20:07 paramat even worse than 'infinite'
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20:20 Fixer while most of server population lives within like 1000x1000 area, you can easily travel to 32000
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22:00 Fixer minetest is permanent beta and minetest_game is permanent alpha /s
22:01 sfan5 yes
22:01 Fixer i've carefully added /s
22:01 Fixer but it is not trully /s
22:01 Fixer but half of /s
22:05 Calinou we're not beta testing, we're performing Consumer Previews
22:06 Calinou and Early Access
22:07 fireglow mods are DLC
22:07 fireglow welcome to EA
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23:11 * tiwake pokes cheapie over here too
23:11 cheapie Hi.
23:12 cheapie If you point your IRC client at daconcepts.com (I think irc.inchra.chat might work too) and join #ve-servers, you should end up there.
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