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IRC log for #minetest, 2017-01-27

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01:17 octacian XtremeHacker: hello here as well.
01:17 octacian :P
01:18 XtremeHacker Hi
01:37 DI3HARD139 How would one pass the "quick" option in  "minetest.clear_objects()"?
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07:42 Atomic_WvTQ_ greetings
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07:44 tankan63 hi atomic.
07:44 Atomic_WvTQ_ hi tankan
07:45 Atomic_WvTQ_ we appear to be in the same timezone
07:45 tankan63 oh yes! good catch
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08:00 MinetestBot [git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: Implement player attribute backend (#4155) b7a98e9 https://git.io/vDvW7 (2017-01-27T07:59:30Z)
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08:08 kaeza greetings
08:09 red-001 hi kaeza
08:10 kaeza anyone speaks italian around here?
08:10 kaeza hello red-001
08:11 kaeza https://github.com/minetest-mo​ds/homedecor_modpack/pull/340
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09:03 Atomic_WvTQ_ @kaeza I speak some French
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09:19 Atomic_WvTQ_ who else installed this on Linux?
09:20 Alcyone2 installed what Atomic_WvTQ_ ?
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12:48 IhrFussel red-001, I had to comment the return false condition out cause too many moderators on my server rely on Android versions and even 0.4.15 Android won't have disabled prediction...but thanks for the efficient code =)
12:51 IhrFussel But the problem persists: Now clients with newly compiled versions won't see their own messages...
12:52 Taose ...
12:52 Taose Why are you using different versions of clients to connect to different versions of servers...
12:52 Taose Force everyone to upgrade.
12:52 Taose Or. Downgrade to stay compatible with the vast majority of users.
12:53 Taose Or is everyone using a different build of the "Dev" version?
12:53 Taose (I did say that was a bad idea -_-)
12:54 IhrFussel Taose, the server is 0.4.15-dev...the problem is that 1. There is NO 0.4.15 for Android yet 2. Many apps that connect to Minetest servers even utilize 0.4.13 or earlier 3. The chat predictions just got disabled for clients meaning 0.4.16 stable will be the FIRST stable version that disables client-side chat prediction
12:55 Taose So...compile a version for Android and release to Aptoid/Fdroid
12:55 IhrFussel Even 0.4.15 Android will have the chat prediction enabled...IMO it was kinda a bad idea to disable the prediction RIGHT after a stable release
12:55 Taose Why? The dev version is supposed to be unstable...
12:56 Taose kinda the point
12:57 IhrFussel Taose, I explained to you the problem already: ANYONE who connects to my server with a client version NEWER than Jan 18/19 I think it was will NOT see their own messages on my server because my server assumes that the clients display the sent messages directly on screen (prediction)
12:58 Taose Yes but that's a dev version is it not?
12:58 Taose Why are you expecting a dev version to be release ready?
12:58 Taose It's being developed, it's not finished. Using it for a server is foolish.
12:59 IhrFussel No you don't seem to understand what I mean... red-001 connected to my server with a newly compiled dev client and couldn't see their own messages in chat BECAUSE my server doesn't send the message to the sender
12:59 Taose In that case, it's not your fault that idiot users are using a version not compatible with your server. Tell 'em to downgrade.
13:00 sfan5 this is expected if you use a dev server & dev client
13:00 Taose ^
13:00 sfan5 dev server & stable client is fine
13:00 sfan5 stable server & dev client also
13:00 * Taose struggles to understand why people insist on using unstable devs and unstable clients for actual multiplayer
13:00 sfan5 however with dev&dev there can be subtle mismatches in features like the one you described
13:01 IhrFussel sfan5, but now I'm stuck until 0.4.16 stable with dev-clients that will complain about that
13:01 sfan5 no
13:01 Taose Welcome to the world of Opensource.
13:01 sfan5 you simple need to update your server to after the chat commit
13:02 sfan5 it only breaks if the client has the commit & the server doesn't OR the other way around
13:02 Taose Though for general safety, both should *in theory* be using the last *stable* version.
13:03 IhrFussel No...I modify EACH message that gets sent before I loop through the player list and send each of them the modified message via chat_send_player...but my server IGNORES the sender of the message in this loop because it was always like that before
13:04 IhrFussel Now I have 2 options: Either new clients don't see their messages in chat OR everyone see their messages twice
13:04 Taose Restrict new clients.
13:05 IhrFussel AFAIK there is no way to restrict them
13:05 Taose i.e prevent clients that are too advanced from connecting and force a downgrade.
13:05 Taose Simply check the version number on connect request?
13:05 Taose Drop if it exceeds a certain value
13:06 sfan5 change SERVER_PROTOCOL_VERSION_MAX to 28 in network/networkprotocol.h
13:07 Taose ...for a moment I thought you were gonna confirm Ihr's position that there wasn't a way to do it >.<
13:09 IhrFussel sfan5, I would gladly do that (even if it requires me to compile everything from scratch) IF there wouldn't be this issue on Android where the app just CRASHES when it tries to display an error message when connecting
13:10 sfan5 and generally what you are describing seems to be a missing feature in the script api
13:10 Taose Again, compile a version for android yourself. You can't be held responsible for other peoples buggy mistakes.
13:10 sfan5 IhrFussel: since you are saying that android is so outdated then protocol version > 28 can't happen
13:11 IhrFussel wouldn't even 0.4.15 stable be >28??
13:11 IhrFussel I mean <=28 *
13:11 sfan5 everything beyond 28 is dev version
13:11 sfan5 (currently)
13:13 IhrFussel I honestly don't think that displaying an error message would be better than the own messages not appearing on screen...
13:13 sfan5 it will not cause an error message
13:14 sfan5 it will only prevent new features from being used
13:14 sfan5 that includes the removed chat-prediction
13:14 IhrFussel sfan5, so when I compile the server with that setting it will FORCE all clients to not use any >28 features?
13:14 sfan5 yes
13:16 IhrFussel Okay that sounds better...I'll do that then
13:16 Taose and in the mean time, you can tell your users not to download from google play -_-
13:16 sfan5 alternatively this could also be solved in mods using minetest.get_player_information() -> prot_vers (which is only available in debug version though but that can be changed when you compile yourself)
13:17 * Taose looks at Minetest in Googlepay (which one am I supposed to choose?)
13:17 IhrFussel Taose, there is absolutely no way to tell all mobile players to download the correct client version
13:17 Taose Server message? "We will not support clients older than x, please go here to upgrade"
13:17 IhrFussel Some don't understand your language, others are too young etc
13:18 Taose This is your fault how?
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13:18 IhrFussel It's not my fault but I want the players to have the best possible experience on my server
13:19 Taose (and it's 0.4.14.15 in google play
13:19 Taose To have the best possible experience, they need to downgrade.
13:19 Taose or
13:19 Taose upgrade as necessary.
13:20 sfan5 you can't downgrade with googleplay
13:20 IhrFussel Yes 0.4.14 is still the current version...and I wonder when 0.4.15 will finally be ready...0.4.14 was out in May for PC and in Aug for Android
13:20 sfan5 however the ""problem"" here is that incompatibilities between dev versions
13:20 Taose (This is the reason why I don't use google play and use fdroid instead)
13:21 sfan5 (which can happen in dev versions and shouldn't surprise anyone9
13:21 Taose amen to that
13:21 Taose 0.4.15 will be ready when it is ready...
13:22 IhrFussel sfan5, I'd say the problem is that a protocol bump with a major change happened right after a stable release...and all clients that use the stable version are stuck with the old protocol version while the "geeks" who compile the newest dev will be on the higher protocol...and this difference will exist until 0.4.16 stable is out...I hope it's easy to understand what I mean here
13:24 Taose Of course a major change happened in the dev version after the stable was released.
13:24 Taose If they did it prior and bugs went with it, then it wouldn't be a stable release would it?
13:24 sfan5 IhrFussel: no
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13:24 sfan5 well
13:24 sfan5 partially
13:24 sfan5 the problem here is that you are using a mod which DOESN'T account for the protocol differences here
13:25 sfan5 however mods can't really do that
13:25 Taose >.>
13:25 Taose oh I thought we were talking about an inbuilt thing
13:25 sfan5 the builtin code works perfectly fine
13:26 sfan5 unless server & client version are apart in narrow window
13:26 IhrFussel sfan5, it's been always the same before and now suddenly the prediction got disabled...I don't think that's my code's fault
13:26 sfan5 IhrFussel: it is your fault for updating to a dev version
13:26 sfan5 things can change in dev versions
13:26 sfan5 you should expect that to happen
13:26 Taose ^
13:27 sfan5 the only problem here is that lua mods can't work around the protocol bump like the c++ code
13:28 IhrFussel It's NOT about my server version...it's about CLIENTS that connect with a protocol version newer than any stable release which disables a major feature the older clients use...and now I have to set this MAX protocol version to account for that...that is kinda unnecessary work
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13:29 IhrFussel But at least there is a way to force the dev clients to behave like stable ones
13:30 sfan5 it is
13:30 sfan5 if you downgrade to before the protocol bump everything will work
13:30 Taose So lemme get this straight. Users are updating to an unstable dev client and complaining that it is unstable?
13:31 IhrFussel But I'm not talking about myself as client...I talk about clients connecting to my server with the dev builds...so you say "tell all your players to downgrade to stable"
13:31 Taose How did they get to a dev version from Google Play?
13:31 sfan5 no i'm not saying that
13:31 sfan5 downgrading the server is the easiest way to fix this
13:32 sfan5 downgrading the clients would also work in theory
13:32 IhrFussel I never said that my server is only played by Android users...I'm just pretty sure that most of them use phones/tablets
13:33 Taose and you said that these android players are having problems with a new build that appears to be dev only.
13:33 Taose we'll lump in ios users as well.
13:33 IhrFussel I can only repeat that red-001 was on my server yesterday and wondered why he/she couldn't see their own messages...and after some thinking I remembered the prediction removal for clients
13:34 Taose Red is clever enough to downgrade.
13:34 Taose (and he's a dev?)
13:34 sfan5 no he isnt
13:35 * Taose wonders to which remark that was meant for XD
13:35 IhrFussel Guys that is not my point...IMAGINE in a few months...when there still is NO next stable release and many more upgraded their clients to dev...then the gap between stable/dev users will be larger
13:35 IhrFussel Maybe you understand the problem now
13:36 Taose Unless someone is gonna update the google play version to 0.4.15-dev, I doubt it.
13:37 Taose How many users have actually complained about this problem? Or is it just Red?
13:37 IhrFussel I'm talking about PC users...my server is for EVERYONE...I don't restrict PC/phone/tablet...users may even connect with a potato if they got one that has CPU,RAM etc
13:38 Taose PC users, you can tell to downgrade quite easily. Or you can make the change to your server as sfan5 recommends.
13:39 Taose sfan5, you mentioned a constant number earlier, would that need to be changed over time as more versions are released/become stable?
13:40 IhrFussel So far red-001 was the only one who noticed the missing messages...but you cannot really tell how many of your active users are advanced enough to use dev versions...I only know 50% of my moderators use phones on the server, I cannot say what regular players use though
13:40 Taose If they're advanced enough to use a dev version on a phone, I think we can safely say it's their own responsibility.
13:40 Taose ...(i'm still trying to work out how they managed it without compiling it themselves)
13:40 sfan5 Taose: the protocol version is increased every time it is necessary to keep backwards compat
13:41 Taose So yes then. Interesting.
13:41 IhrFussel Many seem to use Android/iOS cause they disconnect right after joining again = the game crashed/closed (presumably cause of too low resources)
13:43 Taose (as for me I'll be away for a short while, feel free to leave notes)
13:43 IhrFussel Personally I don't know where to find a smartphone that can't handle Minetest anymore (would need to have 512MB or less RAM and a singlecore CPU I Guess)
13:45 IhrFussel But I often see comments in the play store from users with devices from 2012 so maybe those try to connect
13:47 IhrFussel And they complain about lagging/crashing and blame the GAMES
13:47 IhrFussel How stupid must one be to think a phone from 2012 could handle a modern game engine??
13:49 IhrFussel Well back to topic: I'll think about the re-compiling...I modified the current version A LOT so it's not like I could simply delete everything and run Calinou's script again
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13:54 Persi[m] IhrFussel: it's not about stupidity, marketing departments have removed that concept from the customer's mind
13:56 IhrFussel Persi[m], true...plus the fact that you can run almost all iPhone 6 games on an iPhone 5 and 4 too...but Android is very different in that regard
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13:56 Persi[m] Many people also believe that the sub 15w cpu/gpu inside their laptop is "powerful"
13:57 Persi[m] It's not their fault if companies like Apple spend millions trying to deceive them
13:58 IhrFussel And what are gaming PCs to them?? Weird
13:59 Persi[m] Take a look at macgaming on reddit, it's a constant talking point how most 2015 macs aren't able to run civ6 properly
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14:00 Persi[m] It's understandable, they sold them something "powerful" so they believe it is powerful
14:03 IhrFussel But I wonder what such a consumer would say when they experience a "real" powerful machine...it would probably blow their mind
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14:28 Persi[m] IhrFussel: I've seen it first hand many times, most of the time they tell you that the more powerful machine is actually less powerful, because they use things like window animation smoothness to determine how powerful something is
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14:29 Persi[m] The only way to convince them is to take something that they do in a daily basis, (blender rendering usually works) and show them how its 10x faster
14:30 Persi[m] Even then they aren't convinced, they just think that both machines are "powerful" in different ways
14:32 IhrFussel If they really think that all hope is lost I guess haha...
14:34 Benrob0329[m] So if I was thinking about doing another cinematic minetest video, what mapgen should I use this time?
14:43 Persi[m] v5 will always be the best
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14:47 IhrFussel Is there a big differrence in terms of resources needed between v6 and v7?? For server and client
14:47 IhrFussel difference*
14:48 sfan5 for clients no
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15:01 paramat mgv7 uses 4 3D noises which are intensive compared to the 2D noises of mgv6
15:02 paramat so slower generating, more intensive for the server
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15:03 paramat but not a huge difference
15:04 IhrFussel paramat, can you give an example with numbers? Like 50% more demanding? 30%?
15:10 paramat not that much
15:11 paramat i would go by generation time, i'm not sure how much but i exect <30%
15:11 paramat (expect)
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15:17 IhrFussel And it would only affect generation? Not load/save?
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15:31 paramat correct, just generation speed
15:31 paramat but the bottleneck when generating new world is actually mesh creation, not mapgen
15:32 paramat so it's unlikely you'll see a difference in how fast world appears
15:32 IhrFussel paramat, so the performance difference should be ~ 0 if the world is already largely generated...
15:32 paramat of course, because no mapgen
15:32 Taose hm, it's a shame the meshnode controller is so laggy
15:33 paramat world load/save is the same for any mapgen
15:33 IhrFussel load/save is handled by sqlite completely correct?
15:33 paramat yes but there's another database option i think
15:34 Calinou Persi[m]: my ultrabook can play many old (up to 2007-2008) games well, it leaves for a very big playable game collection
15:34 Calinou in 1920x1080
15:34 Calinou there's more to gaming than Titanfall 2 and Watch Dogs 2
15:34 Taose Yeah
15:34 Taose like Skyrim
15:34 Taose Tis about it.
15:34 Taose No other games exist
15:36 Benrob0329[m] Portal 1 & 2
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16:51 Wagner Is there an image file somewhere (.png?), that I can change, so I can make my own skin?
16:52 sfan5 Wagner: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/minetest/minete​st_game/master/mods/default/models/character.png
16:54 Wagner Is that supposed to be in my minetest folder on my PC?
16:55 Benrob0329[m] Potentially yes
16:55 Benrob0329[m] Its the default skin
16:57 Wagner So if I change this one, where do I put it in my Minetest folder?
17:00 Benrob0329[m] I'd recommend putting inti a custom texture pack (if you don't use a skins mod
17:01 Benrob0329[m] Aka minetest/textures/myPack
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17:01 kaeza skins are currently only client-side, so other people won't be able to see it
17:02 Benrob0329[m] Unless the skin is server side (via a mod)
17:02 Wagner so it can't be done by changing a single .png file? (single player)
17:03 Benrob0329[m] It can people in single player
17:03 kaeza yes, it can
17:03 Benrob0329[m] *be
17:04 Wagner but the default skin is embedded in another file, or?
17:10 Benrob0329[m] You can change it in minetest_game or put it in a texture pack
17:10 Benrob0329[m] the image needs to have the same name though
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18:34 Wagner What is minetest_game?
18:34 Benrob0329[m] the default subgame
18:35 Wagner Am I supposed to have a folder for that?
18:36 Wagner I have client, textures, worlds and mods
18:37 Benrob0329[m] what system are you on?
18:37 Wagner Linux Mint
18:37 Benrob0329[m] are you using the ppa?
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18:38 Wagner how do I check that?
18:39 Benrob0329[m] Software manager > edit > software sources > PPAs i believe
18:39 Wagner sources.list perhaps?
18:41 Benrob0329[m] i dont think so, but im not running linux mint
18:42 Wagner Software manager: minetestdevs/stable + (Sources) - yes
18:43 Benrob0329[m] minetest_game is in the main minetest application directory in /usr/share
18:43 Benrob0329[m] but i wouldnt recommend using that
18:43 Benrob0329[m] i would recommend using either a skins mod or a texture pack
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18:46 Wagner ah of course, I was only looking in my Home folder :)
18:47 Wagner I think I have a problem with conflicting mods
18:48 Wagner I'm using the awesome Dreambuilder mod but I think I've come across mods that won't work at the same time
18:51 Wagner I have so many mods activated that I will have to take a closer look at what works and what not, but thanks so far!
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18:53 Wagner I _would_ like to use a mod for changing skins though, even MC skins or whatever
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19:19 Benrob0329[m] what inventory are you using? Default?
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19:39 hoodedice anyone knows any good books for learning about linux file permissions and related stuff like that?
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19:44 est31 "Unix in a Nutshell"?
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19:53 MinetestBot [git] rubenwardy -> minetest/minetest_game: Fix node drops not being added to inventory when not in creative mode b06368a https://git.io/vDfMI (2017-01-27T19:48:59Z)
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20:06 hoodedice !g unix in a nutshell
20:06 MinetestBot hoodedice: Problem getting data from Google.
20:06 hoodedice !slap MinetestBot
20:08 hoodedice est31, reviewer says "
20:08 hoodedice ...there was no entry for "mount" or "umount"
20:08 hoodedice "
20:08 hoodedice fuck newlines
20:10 agaran hoodedice: I'd suggest using brain.. mount/umount are quite well documented with 'man mount' on decent linux instalation..
20:10 agaran https://linux.die.net/man/8/mount
20:10 hoodedice $man brain >
20:10 hoodedice No manual entry for brain
20:11 agaran can't help with that.. sorry
20:11 agaran file a ticket in some bugtracker..
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20:11 sphalerite I'm tyring to give myself some lava using /giveme default:lavasource but it says unknown item. Is lava not in minetest without mods or something?
20:12 hoodedice jokes aside, I want something as a "general read" -- my comment on it not having mount/umount was to point out that it didn't have notes on some common utility
20:16 agaran I dunno. I was learning basics from some LDP howtos..
20:16 agaran mostly like 'dos to linux howto'
20:16 agaran and it was.. few years ago.. add/take decade or so
20:16 thePalindrome If I could remember the series of books
20:16 thePalindrome Alas, I can't spell
20:17 thePalindrome I can pronounce it :P
20:17 hoodedice 1. learn katakana
20:17 hoodedice 2. now you can spell using syllabaries instead of alphabets.
20:18 hoodedice in other news, bash.org confirmed ded
20:19 thePalindrome I've been meaning to
20:19 agaran I have at least 2 people @work fluent with japanese..
20:19 hoodedice they single?
20:19 hoodedice </sarcasm>
20:20 agaran I think 2x negative,
20:20 agaran http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/D​OS-Win-to-Linux-HOWTO.html  there were some older versions of it..
20:23 thePalindrome Hahah, internet saved me
20:23 sphalerite what? bash.org? nooooo
20:23 thePalindrome O'reilly books
20:23 sphalerite uh
20:23 sphalerite dead how?
20:23 thePalindrome http://ssearch.oreilly.com​/?q=Linux&amp;x=0&amp;y=0
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20:26 paramat default:lava_source
20:26 thePalindrome sphalerite:
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20:31 sphalerite Wow, I really can't read.
20:31 sphalerite Thanks paramat
20:32 sphalerite and thePalindrome
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20:34 hoodedice sphalerite, 1800+ in mod queue
20:34 sphalerite oh but that's nothing new :p
20:36 sphalerite Maybe it's because they got to 420 pages and didn't want to change the number
20:36 hoodedice thePalindrome, ##japanese exists :D
20:36 thePalindrome Figured it does
20:37 thePalindrome I've also got a ton of ebooks and whatnot
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22:27 sphalerite Hm, is there a way to break falls without doing damage? I see water only works up to a certain height / needs to have a certain depth
22:29 paramat you can define a node to reduce fall damage, straw does this
22:32 agaran ethereal mushrom pods too
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