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IRC log for #minetest, 2016-09-28

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Time Nick Message
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01:14 DaveyDude hello
01:14 DaveyDude are there any Lua-proficient modders here?
01:15 DaveyDude *sigh*
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01:17 thePalindrome I am. a bit
01:17 thePalindrome What can I help you with DaveyDude
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01:18 DaveyDude i have a mod idea
01:18 DaveyDude you know about the American police databases, correct?
01:18 thePalindrome Ah, you're just pitching an idea?
01:18 thePalindrome Sure :shrug:
01:19 DaveyDude well, i'm an admin on a server, and i was thinking about maybe having something like that
01:19 thePalindrome How so? like a ban list?
01:19 DaveyDude sort of
01:19 DaveyDude but also what they did, time, date, etc.
01:19 DaveyDude and it would also log times they are put in physical jail
01:20 DaveyDude i mean in game jail XD
01:20 thePalindrome Hmmm... any particular reason you want a jail system?
01:20 DaveyDude we already have one
01:20 thePalindrome But?
01:21 DaveyDude what i mean is, it would work with a little popup that shows up when you run a command or something
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01:21 DaveyDude so that you could look up a person's records and see if they have any warnings or previous kicks or imprisonments
01:22 DaveyDude you could also add info as neccesary
01:22 DaveyDude like when someone commits an offense
01:22 thePalindrome The records part would be fairly easy, the tracking jail time gets a little harder
01:23 DaveyDude that would be entered manually
01:23 IhrFussel On my server I do that via a "Bad Score" system...each player receives Bad Points for breaking rules (1 to 5 depending on what they did) and anyone can check a player Bad Score via command
01:23 DaveyDude sort of like that, IhrFussel
01:23 DaveyDude but it would be a bit more detailed
01:24 DaveyDude like what they did, when
01:24 IhrFussel Well my server logs every chat message so the timestamp and reason are being saved just not visible ingame
01:26 DaveyDude hmm
01:26 IhrFussel But it sounds like you need multiple flags...one for jail amount and another for overall "reputation"
01:28 DaveyDude yeah
01:29 IhrFussel Maybe look at the areas mod and modify its storage code...it uses one file .dat for all protected areas in the world
01:29 DaveyDude hmm
01:29 cheapie The storage code is rather simple.
01:30 DaveyDude good, i don't know very much about Lua
01:30 cheapie Pretty much just minetest.serialize(whatever) and writing it to a file.
01:30 DaveyDude i came here specifically because i wanted to see the possibility and actual easiness of doing something like that
01:31 DaveyDude hmm, i had an interesting idea
01:31 DaveyDude maybe a modification to the mail mod
01:31 IhrFussel cheapie, yes but I mentioned it in case he/she is new at modding
01:32 DaveyDude i'm a he... XD
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01:32 cheapie Heck, in terms of the entire saving code, here you go (more or less): local f = io.open(minetest.get_worldpath​()..DIR_DELIM.."mymod.db","w") ; if f then f:write(minetest.serialize(data_goes_here)) ; f:close() end
01:33 cheapie (untested)
01:33 IhrFussel cheapie, getting the stored data as tables is more complicated no?
01:33 DaveyDude where would that code go?
01:33 cheapie IhrFussel: minetest.serialize() does whatever->string conversion.
01:34 cheapie DaveyDude: Here's a pretty much standard implementation of it (lines 7 to 24): https://github.com/cheapie/m​ail/blob/master/init.lua#L7
01:35 DaveyDude hmm
01:35 DaveyDude ok
01:35 DaveyDude thanks
01:35 DaveyDude now to ask garywhite if we could test it
01:36 DaveyDude maybe i'll do a test run on a minetesthosting.com server
01:36 cheapie The (similar) one from areas is here (to make IhrFussel happy :P): https://github.com/ShadowNinja/areas/blob/7cb8787​bebdad6b1077f7046eddeacc9da0d2136/internal.lua#L6
01:37 DaveyDude well, thanks all
01:38 IhrFussel The areas mod was just an example...its the only mod I use that utilizes file storage I think
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02:22 DaveyDude hell
02:22 DaveyDude oops...
02:22 DaveyDude XD
02:22 DaveyDude *hello
02:23 DaveyDude i found a temporary thing to use for criminal records
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05:30 segfault22 I think the reason why minetest doesn't have a bunch of cool mods similar to Thermal Expansion, Buildcraft, Thaumcraft, Mystcraft, Twilight Forest, Railcraft, Industrialcraft, Forestry, and much more is that people who can make mods believe that it's inevitable that someone else will, so they just play on servers or go play games which already have mods with the features they want (like minecraft)
05:31 segfault22 eventually everyone gets to thinking that someone else is going to make "it", thus nothing ever gets done except for, well... mundane and/or simple stuff that lacks immersive features.
05:35 segfault22 technic was a cool idea, but it is hampered by slow transmission and that central "switch" block. Mesecons are very useful, but they went too far and started making a power system out of it (free energy is good and all, but energy with no source is problematic).
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05:38 segfault22 If I make a power-system mod which adds lots of machines, materials, unique uses for materials, explosives, weapons and so on, would people even use it, or would they just say that there's mods which already bring "stuff like that" and ignore it?
05:41 segfault22 an electrolyzer to separate compounds into their bases (pyrite -> iron and sulfur); a centrifuge to separate mixtures (dirt -> plant matter, water, sand, gravel); a smelter to liquefy metals; a caster to make solid parts from liquid metals; a compressor to transform materials with pressure; and so on - these things are absent from technic
05:45 segfault22 we could make a mod adding bees, which harvest pollen from nearby flowers and produce honey and other useful products; if someone can be a revolutionary and make an actually working, reliable minecart system, then we could make a mod for powered carts that pull loads such as carts full of items; so much is possible if we try - but why, when its already been done for some other game, or when it's inevitable that "someone else will make it"?...
05:46 thePalindrome I see your point
05:46 thePalindrome I also happen to agree with it
05:46 thePalindrome I'm actually working on a steam power mod, because that sounds fun :shrug:
05:47 segfault22 seems like there's a lot of "I have this great idea for a mod! it would be so cool and be a great source for immersion into the game! I even figured out how I would go about programming it! Eh, someone else is gonna make one like it eventually, so I'll just bugger off and wait until then" around here
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05:47 thePalindrome Anyhow, ttyl, I'm off to bed
05:47 segfault22 I am glad you are working on a steam power mod, that will be awesome
05:47 thePalindrome If you message me, I'll get it when I log back in, bouncer :P
05:47 thePalindrome s/,/because
05:48 segfault22 okay
05:50 segfault22 It seems like the only reason some people have made those good mods for minetest, is that they realized after some time that nobody else was going to
05:50 segfault22 It's nothing like minecraft where there can easily be a dozen different mods for the same thing, all slightly different and totally incompatible
05:54 segfault22 What's best about minetest is that all mods can be compatible, and use other mods' functionality if it is available; for this reason, there usually isn't more than one mod created to fulfill some purpose (exceptions being area protection and food crops, which have to build most of their functionality from bits and pieces, rather than mostly using something that is just part of the engine)
05:56 segfault22 MoreOres adds popular metals like copper, tin, silver, gold and mythril, so other mods don't really have to add those (unless someone just happens to come up with a more efficient way to add those materials, and their mod does more than just add those materials, or the developer just doesn't want to add another dependency)
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05:59 segfault22 So, should I work on those two (or 3? or 4?) mods I have decided to develop (materials mod for easily adding materials and items with properties automatically, parametrically determined by the material's properties; power system mod resembling Thermal Expansion bus substantially different), or just wait "until someone else makes it"?...
05:59 segfault22 but
06:05 Hijiri more like I am tired and don't feel like working on my mod idea
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06:06 segfault22 I am always tired, but I worked on the first one so much anyways; its almost finished, except for a few slightly important parts, so I could probably release it in a working, useable state tomorrow if I really wanted to
06:08 segfault22 I just don't know if it will be used by "people out there" at all, I want to make a server to publicly test the mod before it is officially released, and I am not sure if someone else is either already working on something like it (or better) or have already made one that's like it (or better) and I didn't find it anywhere yet...
06:09 segfault22 Also, the mod seems pretty immersion-less without some grand use for all those materials you'll be using it to add - like machines or something
06:09 Hijiri I'm not sure if it's that accurate that minecraft mods are usually incompatible, at least if they are using forge
06:09 Hijiri unless by incompatible you meant something other than running them together breaks stuff
06:11 segfault22 okay, there's one mod which adds different colors of redstone which don't connect (the whole feature of the mod), and another mod which adds more different colors of redstone, including some of the same ones, but there are many other features as well (gany's surface) - to my knowledge, none of the "greenstone" from the former will work at all with that of the latter. They don't crash the game (hopefully), but you can't use one mod's features to work
06:11 segfault22 with another mod's features.
06:12 Hijiri that's an issue with the mods, there are plenty of mods that interact with other mdos
06:12 Hijiri mods
06:12 segfault22 Another example is railcraft electric locomotives - you can use them to pull tons of stuff down a railway, and thats cool, but what if you want to use RF from Thermal Expansion instead of electricity, without having to build yet another third-party conversion device
06:12 Hijiri not an issue with minecraft or forge itself
06:13 segfault22 right, it's not causing the game to crash, but the mods are still incompatible to some extent, because their common features do not work together.
06:13 Hijiri I don't see how you could have "automatic" compatibility with RF and IC etc., since their electric systems are different
06:15 Hijiri you would need a converter somewhere, I mean
06:15 segfault22 It's great to have different types of power systems, like EU from IC2 and RF from Thermal Expansion, since they are based on entirely different concepts. However, some mods will add cool features which use one, but totally disregard the other as if it doesn't exist - they could at least make the "device" use power from both systems, or at most make a different device for each system
06:15 Hijiri I think there was some mod whose machines could take energy from a few different systems
06:17 segfault22 yes, they do exist, but that's kinda a bandaid fix because it either adds a totally new internal "type of energy" exclusive to the machines, or converts all other supported types to one from a different mod.
06:17 segfault22 it doesn't make sense
06:17 Hijiri what would be a non-bandaid fix?
06:17 Hijiri you just suggested a moment ago to make devices use power from multiple systems
06:18 segfault22 say, you have a locomotive frame, and you can plop in it either an electric motor or an RF motor, and the respective power-system, and they will use one and not the other, and it both feels and looks better with what you may have in your base
06:19 segfault22 or even put a steam power system in it fueled by coal - but in essence it is the same vehicle, a locomotive, with parts added based on what is needed. This will probably never exist, but it is reasonably possible with the existing technology, due to more complex things that have been created already (multipart, for example)
06:20 Hijiri why is it better bandaid-wise for the frame to have switchable sources rather than just take from all?
06:21 Hijiri It might feel contrived to have a magical port with 4 converters for 4 different power systems, but I don't see why it is worse intermod interaction
06:23 segfault22 because they never make the "machine" costly enough to seem like it would really contain the systems to convert more than one type of power; only as costly as any other machine which depends on one specific type of power. If they made it more costly and requiring several converter items to make it, then people wouldn't like how expensive it is especially if they only use one type of power; but if they make it possible to only add the systems for wha
06:23 segfault22 t type of power you intend to use, the power system would only cost as much as it should to support a specific type of power.
06:24 Hijiri so that's an issue with mod aesthetic or maybe balance, but why is that a problem with mod compatibility?
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06:26 segfault22 because there isn't an RF locomotive. If your base is built entirely around RF power and you want to use a powered locomotive, you have to download yet another mod with tons of features, just for its converter device which can turn your RF into EU to power the locomotive.
06:26 Hijiri I'm talking about a mod whose machines could take energy from a few different systems, which is the last thing we were talking about when you called it a bandaid fix
06:26 segfault22 none of IC2 or Railcraft or Thermal Expansion have their own converter. It would be great if they did, but they don't, so their features are not compatible without one.
06:27 Hijiri Being able to put in an electric or RF motor won't give IC2 or TE their own converters either
06:28 Hijiri and what are these IC2 / Railcraft / TE converters supposed to convert to? Why would a IC2 <-> TE converter belong any more in IC2 than TE?
06:29 Hijiri I think the best solution for such converters really is to have them in a third mod
06:29 segfault22 the point is that the systems are not designed to work together; if you want, say, an RF dynamo powered by EU, you have to get Forestry mod which adds it; but it makes more sense for there to already be an EU-powered RF dynamo, and an RF-powered generator, in the mods.
06:29 Hijiri But why is your frame that can put different motors in not a bandaid fix?
06:29 Hijiri this is what we were talking about
06:29 segfault22 More specifically, it is possible for the mod developers to make their systems work together "out of the box", but they don't
06:30 Hijiri Which mod does a EU-powered RF dynamo belong in?
06:30 segfault22 it is not a bandaid fix, because it isn't designed with the purpose of fixing a problem; it is designed to use whatever power system you desire, instead of designed to accomodate any power system
06:31 Hijiri those two don't sound mutually exclusive
06:31 segfault22 Dynamos are part of Thermal Expansion, so they belong there. Generators are part of IC2, so they belong there. Basically, they belong in the mod which "owns" the power coming out of it.
06:32 Hijiri why does that make more sense than belonging to the mod which powers the device?
06:32 segfault22 "those two" are not the same, though.
06:32 Hijiri I also don't think each energy mod should have to be aware of every other energy mod
06:33 segfault22 Because if the mod powering the device exists but the mod for the power coming out doesn't, you get a crash if you try to use it. If the device is in a mod which adds the power system it outputs, you simply have no way to power it if you don't have the other mod, so no crash due to calling a non-existing API
06:33 Hijiri I think that's assuming implementation details
06:33 Hijiri the generator/dynamo/whatever doesn't have to call the APIs anyway
06:34 segfault22 then how is it supposed to do anything with power, in the first place?
06:34 Hijiri you check whether the mod is loaded
06:34 Hijiri same way that minetest mods change behavior based on what mods are loaded
06:34 segfault22 but it doesn't have to use the API anyways, so why bother if it doesn't use the API anyways?
06:35 Hijiri I meant that it doesn't have to call the API all the time
06:35 Hijiri e.g. when the API is not available
06:35 segfault22 right, it doesn't
06:36 Hijiri and if you have a pull-based electric system, you get the same issue in the other direction
06:36 segfault22 but how much sense would it make to enable the player to build a device, which can generate a different type of power, which then sits there consuming fuel but doing nothing because there isn't a mod for the energy being output? Sure you could just make the device not work at all, but then the total implementation is far more complex than... just the device being in the mod which uses the power coming out of it.
06:37 Hijiri segfault22: Why does it have to consume fuel?
06:37 Hijiri Oh, you address that in the second part
06:37 segfault22 if you make it check whether the API exists and not do anything if it doesn't, the implementation is overall more complex than what I just said.
06:38 segfault22 oh...
06:38 Hijiri hold on
06:38 Hijiri someone is calling me
06:38 segfault22 okay
06:42 Hijiri ok back
06:42 segfault22 In order to be universally compatible, it would be best for power system mods to recognize every other power system mod, and add devices to convert the power in a logical fashion. However, the big problem is there will be too many power mods that add basically the same thing (IC2 EU is electricity, but Mekanism also adds its own electricity, which works differently and is incompatible). If we just have one mod specializing in each distinct type of p
06:42 segfault22 ower (IC2 for electricity, TE for redstone flux, Railcraft for steam, and so on) there will be substantially fewer mods for which to add a conversion device. This is why if I make a power system mod for Minetest, it will not use electricity, because Technic already deals with that.
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06:44 Hijiri I don't think checking whether the API is there will add significant complexity
06:44 Hijiri it will add an API call and a conditional
06:45 Hijiri You could also run into the problem of the API not being there even if only the receiving mod is defined
06:45 segfault22 People will run out of unique ideas for a working method of transfering power through material or space (light and sound are next, then what?), so we will likely never see more than a dozen truly unique power system ideas. RF is very unique, because it is based on something which does not exist in the real world - but still, how many systems can you imagine that don't use a form of energy existing in the real world, without being basically just RF w
06:45 segfault22 ith a different name?
06:45 Hijiri consider if there is system A where devices get energy by asking the network for some electricity, the request getting passed to energy producers, and some other system B
06:46 Hijiri then when the generator receives a request, it will have to check if the power-producing mod is there, so it can get electricity from it
06:46 Hijiri (assuming system B has a similar system to system A)
06:47 Hijiri B could be a bit different I guess, maybe the machine sets a demand level and the B network directs electricity to it, but it also requires API calls to the producing network
06:52 segfault22 My suggested converters, like the one from forestry mod, have two internal buffers - one for the power coming in, and one for power going out. If power is coming in, it turns on and works until the output buffer is full, then stops until it isn't full. If the input buffer runs out, it stops filling the output buffer. Both buffers are otherwise independent and only deal with the API relevant to them. API calls are only done when there is power being
06:52 segfault22 moved or when power needs to be moved. Also, the mod disables the incoming power buffer entirely if the mod for that power system isn't included, but it doesn't have to omit the output buffer because that mod does exist. It is more work to omit both buffers, if the mod adding the device is also the one with the power system that feeds the input, as you have to prevent the device from working if the power to be output doesn't exist.
06:54 segfault22 you have to make it omit two stages (input and output, so it won't do anything), where it would be easier to only omit one (the input) and it can't output because the input doesn't exist.
06:56 segfault22 Also, if the mod that adds Electricity is removed, but the mod adding redstone flux is still included, you can still drain the dynamos of all their accumulated RF power before dismantling them; instead of just losing it all when the now unknown blocks get GC'd first time the game loads without the electricity mod.
06:57 Hijiri why does it have to omit the input stage?
06:57 segfault22 so that it doesn't sit there consuming power to do absolutely nothing
06:57 Hijiri it can stop consuming power when the input buffer is full
06:58 Hijiri or are you saying the converter, in normal operation, would consume power even if the output buffer was full?
06:59 segfault22 if the input buffer has anything in it, the device turns on and tries to fill the output buffer. If the output buffer doesn't exist, logically it won't try to fill it (else it would crash), so it keeps draining the input buffer and operating until the work-state gets turned off by the signal that the non-existend output buffer is now full.
07:00 Hijiri I don't see how it has to keep draining the input buffer
07:00 Hijiri In your version, when you only have an output buffer, you check that there is no input buffer and don't try to transfer from the input to the output
07:00 segfault22 That would give the player power from no source, if it doesn't drain the input buffer when it is on and working
07:00 Hijiri you can do the same thing here
07:01 Hijiri segfault22: just to be clear, the input buffer is the buffer that receives electricity from the producing network, right?
07:01 segfault22 right
07:01 Hijiri If there is no output buffer, how does the player get any electricity?
07:01 segfault22 the device's working-state depends on whether the input buffer has anything in it, and whether the output buffer is totally full.
07:02 Hijiri I think you thought I said to never drain the input buffer
07:02 segfault22 try to think about what happens, if you include the input-related parts but omit everything related to output.
07:02 Hijiri I meant not to drain the input buffer when there is no output buffer
07:02 Hijiri Otherwise you would drain the input buffer normally
07:03 segfault22 I guess you could skip loading the device at all, so that the player can't use it because it's useless anyways
07:03 Hijiri How would what I said make it useless?
07:03 segfault22 or just skip loading anything except the block part, so it can be made but does absolutely nothing, receiving no power and produciog nothing
07:04 Hijiri I don't follow what you are saying
07:04 Hijiri Before being clever about how broken my design is, maybe you should explain why it is?
07:04 segfault22 Well, if the input buffer can't be drained to do work, and the output buffer can;t output some other type of power, what do you use the device for other than decoration?
07:04 Hijiri did you read my message?
07:04 segfault22 yes
07:04 Hijiri Hijiri | I meant not to drain the input buffer when there is no output buffer
07:04 Hijiri Hijiri | Otherwise you would drain the input buffer normally
07:05 Hijiri If you are draining the input buffer into the output buffer when the output buffer is there, you should be able to get power from it, yes?
07:06 segfault22 that would make it useless, because the device can;t do anything except store some dismal amount of power not relative to its cost (stores some amount of power in the buffer ,much less than something specialized for storing power, but the rest of the cost to make it is for the working part that does the conversion and the output buffer, which do nothing)
07:06 segfault22 If both buffers are loaded, both mods exist and their power systems exist too, of course
07:06 Hijiri It won't store much if only the output mod is there either
07:07 Hijiri output buffer
07:07 Hijiri or is the output buffer bigger in your design?
07:07 segfault22 I guess it doesn't matter
07:07 Hijiri what doesn't
07:07 segfault22 you might as well just not load the device if the other mod is missing, regardless of which one is adding the device, because it would be useless
07:08 Hijiri are you still saying that this is a problem specific to my version, or to both?
07:08 segfault22 what do you use the device for, if it can either not accept one type of power which it needs to produce another, or can't produce the type of power it produces by consuming another?
07:08 segfault22 it applies to either
07:09 Hijiri well, you could keep the device so the player knows what they're looking at
07:09 segfault22 ???
07:09 Hijiri in case they placed it before
07:09 Hijiri they placed the device, and then temporarily unloaded one of the mods for some reason
07:10 Hijiri My original goal was to try to say that the converter doesn't naturally belong in either mod
07:10 segfault22 In minecraft with forge, nodes from a mod no longer loaded are simply removed if you decide to proceed loading (it asks you "hey, these block IDs are used in the world but the mod for them is missing? what to do?"); I figure minetest could do the same, but it doesn't have to
07:10 Hijiri oh
07:11 Hijiri That sounds like a reason to use a third mod to hold the converters
07:11 segfault22 Well you see, some people don't want to have to go download and install another mod just to do something which seems so simple
07:12 segfault22 Actually, it can benefit everyone because finding yet another mod (and there will probably be several different ones for the same thing, as usual) takes more resources than just getting the ones you want and being okay with the fact that they can work together by default.
07:13 segfault22 sure it's easy to install another mod to do all of it, but why even make that necessary?
07:13 segfault22 This all originated from my point that people at minetest tend to not develop mods they want, because they think by default that someone else will or already is.
07:13 Hijiri Ok, that makes sense to me
07:13 Hijiri But then you still do have to figure out who adds the converters
07:14 Hijiri I guess that would just be a matter of convention, though
07:14 segfault22 I guess it doesn't matter, I was just influenced by seeing the Forestry mod's wiki page about the electric dynamo, which "does nothing if IC2 isn't loaded"
07:15 segfault22 it was the first time I was introduced to a mod which adds a conversion device for another mod's power system, by default
07:16 Hijiri I'm going to go, I want to start getting more sleep
07:16 Hijiri Thanks for the conversation
07:16 segfault22 All of these conversion devices that are added by default (all 1 or 2 of them) seem to have something in common - they convert the input power to motion, then the motion to output power, just as a generator for the first type of power converts motion to power and a generator for the second type does the same
07:16 segfault22 thank you
07:17 segfault22 it was good talking with you, even if I did kinda feel like I was being trolled because now it's 3:17 AM for me and I started this rant about minetest community members not making mods back around 12:45 orso
07:18 segfault22 Should I just go set-up minecraft with all those mods I want to see in minetest, and play until whenever, hoping that when I come back development work will be started on minetest mods that can add cool stuff like them?
07:19 segfault22 or should I work on the mods for minetest which I have decided to make, knowing that they will either not be used due to a false perceived sense of redundancy or someone will already have one just like it made by the time I release it or before
07:20 segfault22 I know someone is working on a steam power mod, which I was thinking about doing in the past, but now that I know it's being worked on by others, I will instead focus on something unique which I think nobody here has yet decided to make
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07:25 segfault22 If you are a member of the minetest community who is working on new unique and immersive mods yet to be released, and you pause that work to go play minecraft and enjoy similar immersive features which already exist - is that like sneaking away from your unconditionally-loving girlfriend, to go have the services of an expensive prostitute? I kinda feel like it would be wrong like that, but I don't know for sure
07:28 segfault22 I got my minecraft account when the price was $25, now its $35; I have always felt like they are only there to screw people and get money for it, even before I got a premium account, but I wanted to play on those fun, less-crowded servers that don't run offline mode
07:30 segfault22 That was back when almost nobody was playing on minetest servers, and it felt so lonely even if there was one or two other people on the same server; I wanted to not be lonely in a game of this type, which is why I almost never play singleplayer unless it's very immersive and there's plenty to do without being around others
07:31 segfault22 Minetest singleplayer doesn't feel immersive at all, even with the best mods that are out there; it just feels like an empty world where there's not much to accomplish or have fun doing, but in a server even with very few mods, you can make trade with people and build a town with a population...
07:33 segfault22 in singleplayer, you just have one big central base that houses all of your accomplishments (power systems powering machines doing processes to make stuff, research/magic rooms for that kind of stuff, portal room for your mystcraft portals and bookshelves or even a stargate) - if there isn't that much stuff to make or construct which can provide processes or gains of some kind, when your base is small...
07:34 segfault22 you could build a city, but why if it's never going to have anyone in it but yourself? You could build a railway, but unless it connects to some important resource-gathering place or an externally located factory or powerplant, what's the purpose?
07:37 segfault22 and you can't even build a good railway in minetest, because the carts jump off the rails frequently, and even if the carts can be linked together, they don't turn naturally at curves, so it looks wrong...
07:38 segfault22 I can see a possible way to make a better cart system, where a path is calculated based on how the rails are connected, and the cart follows the path instead of the rails - but it's probably very difficult to implement, so why bother any further than just suggesting the idea to the mod's developer(s) and bugger-off hoping it will happen?
07:40 segfault22 also it would probably require tracks to have a new metadata field, and possibly add a new node for the curved tracks, which only makes it even more complex...
07:44 segfault22 It's true that we all want the mods to be better and there to be more mods that are better and have more immersion-factor, but all of the work needed to get there is unpleasant for most. Maybe this is why we usually only have simpler mods - because they are so simple it's easy and maybe even fun to program them; and maybe it is also why many of the more complicated mods are left in a state that doesn't make much sense or has lots of problems - it's
07:44 segfault22 so boring and "unfun" to program them, especially when they have to be even more complex in order to work smoothly or have better features or immersion-factor...
07:47 segfault22 Great mods with cool, immersive features are usually only fun when they are finished enough to be useable and released to the public; then, doing minor bugfix updates or adding new features is either simple enough to be not much of a bother, or fun (in the case of new features) because you know that everyone, including yourself, will like it much more with the new cool features
07:51 segfault22 I could also just quit doing anything with these games for a while, and design parts and stuff for my inventions via FreeCAD, hoping the whole while that people in the minetest community will develop cool mods during my absence...
07:54 segfault22 if you look at my photobucket uploads, you can see that sometimes I work on stuff for minetest and sometimes I go play minecraft, occasionally with some other random crap in-between or mixed in... I don't like that there's so much minecraft crap, though...
08:00 segfault22 really I hate minecraft, but when minetest gets boring, I go there to have at least some fun or do something immersive and challenging...
08:01 segfault22 I used to only play minecraft cracked in offline mode, on factions servers for griefing and stuff, and then I found minetest - only afterwards was I even considering to buy a premium minecraft account, because I started to feel that minetest is boring without immersion (as is pretty much any game)
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08:03 segfault22 Not sure if I'm glad the dollar didn't collapse yesterday, or disappointed... maybe some of both...
08:05 segfault22 I hate the dollar system, and pretty much any fiat money system. Heck, I could go even further and say I hate any monetary system, because it restricts development of technology, causes people to become poor even if they "have work", and rewards people for destroying the environment. Society without money, if done properly, would be best for all the children of mother Earth...
08:07 segfault22 There are enough resources for everyone to have clean food, clean water, and plenty of power for their entire life, and still have a huge surplus to devote to things like making new technology, building factories, and space exploration...
08:09 segfault22 it is commonly seen that developing new technology which replaces human jobs in a business is bad, because people have to lose their jobs - but without a money system, this is actually good, because people don't have to do as much work to produce the products, and all the people whose jobs are obsolete can move on to do something better for society and pursue their desires more
08:11 segfault22 without a money system, when jobs get replaced by machines, everyone wins because less hard labor is needed to produce the products. The best example is harvesting food - in the past, it was hard to harvest crops by hand, but now we have machines to do it, so over half of the people who were once farmers could, logically, move on to do something else - assuming, that is, the food is fairly distributed
08:12 segfault22 There's more than enough "people-food" to feed 14 billion people; but most of it is wasted, either thrown away because it was prepared and nobody bought it or thrown away because it was harvested and nobody bought it before it went bad.
08:13 segfault22 so without money, we wouldn't even need to produce as much food and everyone would get fed; literally everyone could live as rich people, because resources are abundant. The only thing that's scarce is money, because it is hoarded to leverage power over people and force them to work while remaining poor just to prop up a top-heavy elitist system
08:15 segfault22 the feeling of scarcity instills the feeling of hate, which motivates people to abuse others and take from them to satisfy their needs; the feeling of abundance instills the feeling of love, which motivates people to cooperate with others and give to them to satisfy everyone's needs.
08:15 segfault22 they say you can choose which way you want to live, but when forced to live with a money system, you can only have the former, else you die.
08:18 segfault22 I honestly believe that people deserve to have abundance; so I will work on my mods, to be released for free to everyone under an open-source license at no cost.
08:22 segfault22 Minecraft is disgusting, because they force you to pay for the game in order to play it legitimately and with all the features. Nobody should have to pay for something so evanescent and volatile like software
08:23 segfault22 sure, you should have to work and contribute significantly to earn something difficult to produce like a car or an airship; but you shouldn't have to work for food and water or else die, and people who destroy the environment should not be allowed to get something as expensive to produce as an airship or a private bunker or something like that
08:24 sfan5 dont you want to use a pastebin for the novel you are writing in here?
08:24 segfault22 if I did that, it wouldn't get across to nearly as many people
08:25 segfault22 I'm glad you're at least seeing that I am saying something, regardless of if you care about what is being said. It means a lot to me, just to know that someone is actually there
08:27 segfault22 Am I insane? Have I gone bonkers? should I be regarded as highly unstable and must be contained?... or am I finally onto something, a concept of a system that if employed, would really be good for the entire world?...
08:28 segfault22 only through time, will we truly know...
08:28 segfault22 or you can just tell me
08:30 Calinou segfault22: software probably shouldn't cost a dime, yes, but services rightfully have a price tag
08:31 segfault22 Of course it shouldn't be totally free to get something truly expensive, but there's so much food and water it just doesn't make sense to give it to people who can afford it and deny it to people who are starving to death and have no money
08:33 segfault22 if we just give people a base income, that would mostly solve the food distribution problem, but it wouldn't do anything to fix the problem where rich companies get rewarded with lots for destroying the environment and poisoning people
08:34 segfault22 we could make more regulations to limit the ability of companies to pollute and destroy, but they always find some way around it, or there is an unintended consequence like the cobra effect.
08:35 Calinou I too think software should be shareable and acquirable for free :P but almost all companies don't see it that way
08:36 segfault22 it would be best to get rid of money, allow people to have toe food and water they need for free, and allow people to have expensive desires only when they have done enough positive things for society to justify having it
08:37 segfault22 that way, a company can't build themselves a massive data center, office complex, and golf course resort by the beach if what they did destroyed the environment or made people sick, or was overall justifiably negative for the whole world
08:38 segfault22 like mining coal by ripping the top off of mountains, then dumping the processing waste slurry into the river and killing all of the fish, then using the money they get from selling the coal to do whatever they want
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08:39 segfault22 if we regulate companies' ability to pollute, they'll just move to some poor country where the regulation is lax or doesn't exist, or conspire to destabilize the government in the region and do it anyways
08:43 segfault22 it would be reasonable to reward a software programmer for making something, especially if it is custom for a company or person and it is complex - but something like a game just doesn't warrant requiring people to pay in order to have it. If the game makers' needs were satisfied, they would be programming the game as leisure or for a hobby, it wouldn't be something they have to do or else starve to death, so they would naturally be okay with people
08:43 segfault22 rewarding them for how good they think it is instead of paying them just to have access to it (and be able to tell how good it is - ever bought a game and find out it totally sucks?)
08:45 segfault22 and if its something really big or something a significant portion of society wants, it would be reasonable to allocate a bunch of expensive stuff to reward the game maker for their hard work, when it is released.
08:46 segfault22 people would actually be able to reward others for doing something good for society, if they didn't have to do hard work just to get enough money to pay for survival needs
08:46 segfault22 and many people could put together small amounts of resources they have, to create a total reward that is immense in comparison to the contribution of just one of those people
08:47 segfault22 we would still need some system to keep track of what people do and the rewards for them, so it will be difficult or impossible or just not worthwhile to be a charlatan and trick people into giving them lots of expensive stuff for something that's worthless or has a negative result
08:48 segfault22 not like surveillancing what people do all day and using that to decide how much they get, but just something to contain entries about what projects they are working on or how many boring tasks they helped complete which can't be automated by a machine
08:49 segfault22 if people don't put their work into the system, it only makes it harder for others around the world to reward them, but people in the immediate local community can still know about it via the good old-fashioned paper and graphite method
08:51 segfault22 the whole point is that minecraft sucks, and the money system is only one reason for that, even though it is an entirely different issue altogether... everything is connected
08:52 segfault22 is software volatile or vaporous? if both, how much of either?
08:53 segfault22 or is it... /ethereal/...
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08:59 segfault22 if we can invent a technology to modify all the DNA in all the cells of a body, and modify the shape of the body to fit, in essence create new creatures by modifying existing ones without killing them or having to start with a single cell, of course all the furrie-fans will take up to it and want to go get changed to whatever, but there's one big problem they won't see until afterwards - fleas
09:00 segfault22 its much easier to pick off fleas and ticks and lots of other nasty stuff, when there isn't fur in the way, so they would pretty much be only at a loss
09:00 segfault22 and imagine how much shampoo they would have to use, or even have to get special stuff just for it and still use a lot...
09:01 segfault22 many would probably go insane and turn feral, to run away into the forest and live as animals, which I have no problem with at all, as long as I don't have to ever meet them
09:01 segfault22 "as animals" lol, humans are animals, just more advanced
09:01 segfault22 whatever
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09:02 segfault22 I'm gonna go work on my mods now, maybe do something actually valuable and productive, knowing that I won't get paid for it but I don't care about that because I will be bringing abundance to people
09:03 segfault22 if not all people, then at least some people, who actually care about this game and think the mod is cool enough for them to use it
09:03 JamesTait Good morning all! Happy Wednesday and happy Drink Beer Day! 😃  🍺
09:05 segfault22 good morning, and happy wednesday to you too :D
09:06 Szkodnix morning, morning :) ooh is it really a Drink Beer Day? :-O
09:06 segfault22 maybe as part of that society without money thing, everyone should be allowed to have free beer on drink beer day :D
09:06 Szkodnix sounds promising... :D
09:07 Szkodnix I wish there was such thing here in Poland :D Brewfest with free beer :D
09:08 segfault22 I would say the free beer should be limited to just one glass per person, but that's nonsense because one does not simply drink just one beer
09:09 segfault22 "I drink beer, but only on days that end with a Y" - from someone who drinks beer
09:09 segfault22 let's holler out Mt. Everest and turn it into a giant beer factory
09:10 Szkodnix well... you know how they say here in Poland :D "What is the best beer in the world?" "The one given to us for free" :D so I guess it would be a good deal
09:11 segfault22 xD
09:12 Szkodnix sometimes also there are answers like "the second one" but naah, free beer is always the best :D
09:21 segfault22 the best beer in the world is the next one
09:22 segfault22 so once you have it, the one after that will always be better
09:23 segfault22 I wonder why nobody has replied to the "[Game] Edit the image!" topic in the offtopic section of the forum...
09:24 segfault22 maybe because I took the last image and put it onto the billboard sign in the image of Corel Prison, which is big compared to the billboard...
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09:32 segfault22 surely its not that difficult to edit the image of Corel Prison? Or did I just spoil all the fun?...
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09:39 segfault22 I changed my signature but it's gone...
09:40 segfault22 it's just not there at all, not even the horizontal line separator thing
09:42 segfault22 does it take an hour to update or something? Or can I just not see my signature because I'm logged in as me? Should I login with someone else's account?
09:43 segfault22 er, should I log out? I don't have access to other peoples' passwords, lol that would be totally insane... lol...
09:50 red-001 ???
09:50 red-001 just make a new account if you want to test it that badly
09:50 red-001 anyway I could just see can I see it
09:52 red-001 nope can't see it
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10:04 Megaf Good morning everyone
10:22 segfault22 good morning
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10:27 MinetestBot Buttatoes: Sep-23 12:51 UTC <Megaf> Hi, thanks for reporting the problem with sand falling. Can you please check if it is fixed?
10:27 Megaf Hey Buttatoes, yes, just crashed
10:27 Buttatoes I broke it :D
10:27 Megaf I did
10:28 Buttatoes it's no big deal
10:29 Buttatoes my short term goal is to finish the water ride. long term maybe build that area into a city
10:30 Buttatoes I'm no paul landowski but maybe I'll try to build a giant statue too
10:30 Megaf server is back already Buttatoes
10:30 Megaf was back 3 seconds after the crash :)
10:31 Buttatoes thanks Megaf
10:33 Megaf Buttatoes: if you are curious, here is the crash http://paste.debian.net/plain/843072
10:35 Megaf here is the full thing http://paste.debian.net/plain/843074
10:36 Buttatoes of course I'm curious
10:37 red-001 it looks similar to a bug reported a while back
10:37 Buttatoes the problem is b and it's nil value
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10:40 red-001 i'm probably the laziest admin ever. I *need* worldedit to even build roads
10:40 lumidify joined #minetest
10:58 Megaf red-001: we all do that
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11:24 Megaf man, it's difficult to deal with water flowing, it stops flowing after active_block_range
11:25 Megaf and then it doesnt flow anymore even if you get close to it
11:25 red-001 yeah water is a big mess
11:25 Megaf you have to place a block around it or dig to make it flow again
11:25 M-JLuc joined #minetest
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11:25 sherkaton[m] joined #minetest
11:25 red-001 at least you don't have to deal with it covering the unloaded block
11:28 Megaf a player on my server built gigantic towers with water flowing on its walls, but water never reaches the floor
11:28 Megaf really a pain to make it work
11:28 Megaf !server Megaf
11:28 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 2/10, 0/3 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 6ms
11:36 Buttatoes Megaf: I can do grunt work with flowing water, it's no big deal for me. I knew what I was getting into when I started building towers 100 units high
11:38 segfault22 a mobs API system and a vehicles API system would be like the Cambrian explosion, except for minetest - quite literally though
11:43 Megaf red-001: you just helped me fixing the problem...
11:44 Megaf red-001: by increasing the server unload timeout and visiting the blocks, it kept the blocks active making possible for the water to flow
11:58 segfault22 ?
11:59 Megaf ? what?
12:00 Megaf PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S  %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
12:00 Megaf 1825 minetest  20   0  919m 502m 2384 R  64.1 98.1  76:55.14 minetestserver
12:00 red-001 ?????????????????????
12:01 Megaf red-001: you said that I don't have to deal with water in unloaded blocks
12:01 Megaf red-001: that was the problem, the server was unloading blocks before water could flow there
12:01 red-001 yeah there used to be a bug that caused water to flow over unloaded blocks
12:02 Megaf red-001: hm, so that would make water fall into the limbo?
12:02 red-001 no
12:02 red-001 ignore is not floodable
12:02 red-001 so it spread over the top of the block
12:03 Megaf oh, I remember that
12:03 Megaf in my previous server I had 90% of the spawn submerged in 20+ meters of water because of that
12:03 segfault22 that used to be so lol, I remember too
12:04 red-001 frezzing water when it reached ignore was added as a workaround
12:04 Megaf the water just spread on top of the whole block
12:05 segfault22 you could always just handwavium it away and tell people "it does that due to a sonic effect, when the water moves so fast as its falling" and then smack them really hard if they try to say anything about the water nodes moving as fast there as near the source
12:05 red-001 It was decied at some point not to add code to unfrezze it as it was to cpu heavy
12:05 segfault22 really?
12:05 red-001 yeah
12:06 segfault22 Instead of just adding the water nodes to a table for the chunk when they reach ignore, and when a nearby chunk loads, iterate through the list and remove the freeze?
12:06 segfault22 er, when the chunk under it loads
12:07 segfault22 then you don't have to constantly check if the chunk is loaded or not, or some other horrible excuse for a solution
12:07 red-001 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2977
12:07 red-001 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3581
12:08 red-001 I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean
12:16 segfault22 we make a table for every chunk, stored with it in the database; this contains references to all frozen liquid nodes in the chunk. when the water reaches a non-loaded chunk, the code currently used to stop it from flowing around is still used, but the node is added to this special table. Whenever a chunk under a loaded chunk is loaded (from unloaded), we iterate through the table and un-freeze the fluid nodes. Maybe we should also do the opposite wh
12:16 segfault22 en a chunk unloads (check for liquid nodes at the bottom of the lowest loaded chunk and freeze them) to prevent it from happening in that case as well.
12:17 Fixer joined #minetest
12:17 segfault22 it may be highly inefficient though, but only if it is done via code running in Lua and translating to C++ functions every time something needs to be done (looks like what they are using in the pull request, is Lua code)
12:18 red-001 that would use up a lot of disk space
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12:19 segfault22 then chunks themselves would use up too much disk space, because this can only use up as much space as a table containing coordinates for every node in the bottom layer of a chunk...
12:19 segfault22 per chunk
12:19 red-001 even adding all liquid nodes in a chunk to the update queue sounds like a better idea
12:20 red-001 would this require modifying the way the map is saved?
12:20 segfault22 they could probably use the original idea, and it be much more efficient, by running all the processes in the C++ side, instead of running it in Lua and translating over every time something needs to happen - like the mobs fiasco
12:21 red-001 wait why would you even want this to be lua sided?
12:21 segfault22 You don't
12:22 segfault22 But that's what they wrote it in...
12:22 red-001 when?
12:22 segfault22 huh, that's odd... it's a C++ file, but it's entirely Lua
12:23 red-001 ???????????????????????????????
12:23 red-001 link?
12:23 segfault22 https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest/pull/2977/files
12:23 red-001 the abm idea didn't get merged did it?
12:23 red-001 thats not lua
12:23 red-001 and that didn't get merged
12:24 Blerrt joined #minetest
12:24 red-001 that was just the discussion
12:24 segfault22 Oh I see, the C++ unique artefacts were just hidden in the unedited parts
12:24 segfault22 like "case" and !=
12:25 segfault22 it looks enough like Lua though, I can kinda read most of it; maybe I should study C++ more and work on the engine some...
12:25 red-001 lua doesn't have continue and you don't need to declare the type of a variable
12:26 segfault22 right, right
12:27 red-001 my server might as well be renamed afk simulator
12:27 segfault22 LOL
12:27 red-001 3 players all afk
12:27 Megaf !server Megaf
12:27 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 1/10, 0/3 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 6ms
12:27 red-001 new players just timeout
12:27 Megaf 1 player, nobody AFK
12:28 red-001 !server fg2
12:28 MinetestBot red-001: No results
12:28 red-001 !server just a test server
12:28 MinetestBot red-001: No results
12:28 thePalindrome !server mine
12:28 MinetestBot thePalindrome: LINUXWORKS MINETEST SERVER (NEW HOME) | www.linux-works.de | Clients: 7/15, 6/8 | Version: 0.4.14 / minetest | Ping: 19ms
12:28 segfault22 maybe I could make that much-desired mobs API, or a reasonable carts API with paths for the tracks and a proper-looking turning when carts round a curved track
12:28 thePalindrome That's not mine, bot :P
12:28 red-001 !server just test server
12:28 MinetestBot red-001: Just test server | 51.37.48.165 | Clients: 3/15, 3/4 | Version: 0.4.14-403dada / minetest | Ping: 52ms
12:29 red-001 !server just test server
12:29 MinetestBot red-001: Just test server | 51.37.48.165 | Clients: 3/15, 3/4 | Version: 0.4.14-403dada / minetest | Ping: 52ms
12:30 segfault22 agh, now I see some of that complex C++ stuff... its so ugly...
12:30 xunto joined #minetest
12:30 thePalindrome C can do that :P
12:31 red-001 assembly can do that
12:31 thePalindrome C# Always does that *cough*
12:31 segfault22 lool
12:31 Calinou segfault22: there is C++ and C++
12:32 * red-001 hopes someone says something about machine code and continue; 's the thread
12:32 Calinou it's really easy to write ugly C++ using goto and such :)
12:32 Calinou and you can write beautiful C++14 (soon C++17) too
12:32 red-001 doesn't minetest require c++98?
12:32 thePalindrome I'd have to check the makefile
12:33 segfault22 14 as in 2014, or version 14?
12:33 thePalindrome Actually, I don't think it specifies
12:33 thePalindrome iirc it uses the default c++ spec for your gcc
12:33 thePalindrome which in 5.3.0 was changed to 14
12:33 red-001 I meant that the code guidelines require that
12:34 thePalindrome hmm
12:36 segfault22 haha, the C++ side of the registry APIs are buried deeply into the C++ source...
12:37 segfault22 its like looking through a gov't database server looking for a phone number entry
12:37 thePalindrome Or anything :P
12:37 proller__ joined #minetest
12:37 segfault22 or a certain needle in all of the soil of Alaska
12:38 thePalindrome Can you see russia from the needle?
12:38 segfault22 xD
12:38 segfault22 only if its on the surface
12:43 xunto joined #minetest
12:50 segfault22 my window-unit air conditioner is accumulating some weird gelatinous substance on the external portion... I wonder what it could be, but I have a feeling that it is something bad...
12:51 thePalindrome What does it smell like? also color
12:51 Fixer oil?
12:51 red-001 aliens ?
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12:53 Megaf segfault22: your air conditioner is capturing aliens from antoher dimension and blending them in an extremely painful way, the gum you see is a mix of their flesh and blood.
12:53 segfault22 oh okay, then nothing to worry about right?
12:53 thePalindrome Maybe your ac unit is making jello for you :D
12:53 Megaf That must be caused by some kind of insulation problem in the dimansion temperature reactor
12:53 segfault22 xD
12:54 thePalindrome Man, I wish my ac loved me so much
12:54 Megaf segfault22: I think you could call the tech support and be like "Hi, my AC unit is blending aliens, is that an expected behaviour?"
12:54 segfault22 I haven't smelled any of it, but its mostly opaque and light gray or beige, orange in some spots near the top
12:54 Megaf segfault22: yep, blood and flesh
12:55 Megaf the light grey is their blood, and flsh is orange
12:55 Megaf flesh*
12:56 segfault22 ewww
12:56 thePalindrome the orange spots may be rust, but I'm not sure about the gray. Is it a swamp cooler?
12:57 Megaf segfault22: It is leaking oil, that's all
12:58 Megaf and the oil is washing away some rust
12:58 Megaf and technically if oil can get out, moisture can get in
12:58 segfault22 eh, that's not good
12:58 Megaf it isn't
12:58 Megaf better than blending aliens
12:59 segfault22 it's not an evaporative cooler, just a regular window-unit air conditioner
13:04 segfault22 so its leaking oil
13:05 segfault22 I didn't know it would turn gelatinous though, I thought oil and water don't mix
13:06 thePalindrome water usually doesn't turn things gelatinous
13:07 thePalindrome It's usually the opposite :P
13:07 Megaf segfault22: maybe is just water with some algae or bacteria that makes it jello like
13:07 segfault22 yeah
13:07 Megaf it's difficult to know exactelly
13:08 Megaf orange could be from algae or rust
13:09 segfault22 It could be some kind of biological stuff, thriving on the moisture and waste heat. I'm okay with that as long as it doesn't clog up the heat exchanger
13:09 thePalindrome Mildew
13:09 segfault22 maybe I should collect a sample and send it to a lab for analysis
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13:10 Megaf now, what if they say that it's not a known DNA?
13:11 segfault22 Then I guess I'll get them to put it somewhere, maybe declare a new species
13:11 thePalindrome Call the species megaf :P
13:11 Megaf maybe it's just blended aliens afterall
13:11 Megaf thePalindrome: lol, I support the tidea
13:11 Megaf idea*
13:11 segfault22 maybe I should collect a glob of it, put it in a petri dish with some food and water, and see if it grows
13:11 Megaf Megafinus Gelatinus
13:12 segfault22 xD
13:12 Megaf Megafinus Gelatinus
13:12 Megaf there
13:12 segfault22 google has 0 results for that, so its not taken
13:12 Megaf well, it's somethingn ew
13:13 segfault22 should I send a sample to you, so you can conduct some tests?
13:13 Megaf eh, not yet
13:13 Megaf let me move home first
13:13 segfault22 okay
13:13 segfault22 xD
13:13 red-001 what if they say it has no dna?
13:14 Megaf before that, I need this job that I had a phone interview yesterday
13:14 Megaf so wish me luck
13:14 segfault22 okay, good luck
13:15 Megaf Megafinus Airconditionis
13:15 segfault22 xD
13:15 Megaf maybe that's a better name
13:15 segfault22 indeed
13:16 segfault22 what if its a new element that doesn't follow the rules of the periodic table, or something?
13:16 thePalindrome Then physics is ruined :P
13:16 segfault22 xD
13:17 Megaf Megafinus aerconditioner
13:17 Megaf That would be a proper scientific name. I'm going to far with this, ain't I?
13:18 segfault22 xD
13:20 Megaf "The depressed scales of the head and body in Megafinus are much wider than in Psorophora ; moreover, in Megarhinus the scales of the legs are never erect as"
13:20 Megaf Oh my
13:21 Megaf they already named someing in my name!!
13:21 Megaf psyche.entclub.org/13/13-011.htm
13:21 Megaf http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=​cache:oWXI5xiCc3wJ:psyche.entclub.org/13/13-011​.html+&amp;cd=2&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=ie
13:21 Megaf There
13:21 Megaf !titel
13:21 Megaf !title
13:21 MinetestBot Megaf: Psyche 13:11-21
13:21 Megaf "The depressed scales of the head and body in Megafinus are much wider than in Psorophora ; moreover, in Megarhinus the scales of the legs are never erect as in Psorophora. Therefore Psorophora can neither be placed in the satne sub-family with Megarhinus nor with Culex, but should constitute a dis- tinct sub-family, Psorophorinae. "
13:21 segfault22 xD
13:22 segfault22 impossibruh
13:22 Megaf See, my species has much wider scales! Take that!
13:22 Megaf now, that was just a typo
13:22 Megaf Megafinus and Mearhinus
13:22 segfault22 google got like 7 results for "megafinus", without quotes. with quotes, only two
13:22 Megaf Megarhinus*
13:23 Megaf well, Megafinus aerconditioner is totally new
13:23 Megaf segfault22: we totally could name a new species endemic to your air conditioner
13:23 segfault22 xD
13:25 Megaf [14:17:05] <segfault22> what if its a new element that doesn't follow the rules of the periodic table, or something?
13:25 Megaf [14:17:21] <thePalindrome> Then physics is ruined :P
13:25 Megaf How do we name a new element?
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13:25 segfault22 pick someone who's dead, pick some random 3rd-world country, or come up with something totally random
13:25 Megaf like, this could be the byproduct of Megafinus aerconditioner digestion.
13:26 Megaf segfaultum is the new name then!
13:26 segfault22 xD
13:27 Megaf so, there we have it, a new species called Megafinus aerconditioner that produces segfaultum as byproduct of it's digestion process.
13:27 segfault22 xD
13:28 Megaf And, segfaultum might be the rarest and most expensive chemical element on Earth!
13:28 Megaf thePalindrome: ^
13:28 Megaf red-001: then it's now a life form we can detect
13:29 Megaf or can we?
13:31 segfault22 maybe its a new ultra-heavy element with an atomic number "over nine-thousaaaaand"
13:36 Megaf Perhaps zone I hope not tho
13:39 Megaf I didn't write zone. Auto correct did it
13:40 Megaf I pressed comma
13:40 Megaf The ","
13:47 Megaf segfault22: well man, if you do send that to be analysed and it is a new bacteria indeed then we have an awesome name for it
13:47 segfault22 yes xD
14:00 segfault22 I'm not sure what part of my mod to work on... there's so much that isn't finished and so many different ways to implement it...
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14:02 Megaf What does your mod do?
14:03 Megaf segfault22: the next species we find we can call Megafinus Minetestis
14:03 Megaf funniest name ever!
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14:04 segfault22 xD
14:06 segfault22 my mod loads functions that facilitate adding materials to a list, where each material has its properties (name with capitalized first letter, strength, density), and then loads functions which allow you to easily add an item or tool or node, with its properties for minetest.register_*() filled in automatically from the data in the table, and each item/node/tool only requiring a single line with a few parameters instead of a whole minetest.register_
14:06 segfault22 *() block
14:07 Megaf Off topic, https://office.live.com/star​t/Word.aspx?auth=1&amp;nf=1 Doesn't work in google chrome here
14:08 Megaf page unresponsive
14:08 segfault22 xD
14:08 segfault22 so you can have this mod load, then have some other mod (or a special file in this mod's directory) add as many items and tools and nodes as you want, neatly keeping up with all of their properties, which can be changed easily by just modifying the material's properties - if you want diamond tools to be stronger, increase the diamond material's strength, instead of changing the properties for every single registry entry one by one
14:09 segfault22 the most time consuming process for adding a whole set of items, tools and nodes via this mod, is the part where you use GIMP to make all of the textures and name them correctly
14:11 Megaf interesting
14:11 Megaf it almost sounds like something minetest had to have built in
14:11 segfault22 it even lets you make tools with different handle materials, the swing time depending on the material's weight (density multiplied by volume - volume of pickaxe head is 3, handle is 0.5, volume of shovel head is 1, etc.)
14:11 segfault22 I hope
14:12 Megaf what's HybridDog's name on IRC?
14:12 Megaf !seen HybridDgo
14:12 MinetestBot Megaf: Sorry, I haven't seen hybriddgo around.
14:12 Megaf !seen HybridDog
14:12 Megaf !seen HybridDog
14:12 Megaf bot, wake up
14:12 Megaf !seen HybridDog
14:12 MinetestBot Megaf: Sorry, I haven't seen hybriddog around.
14:13 lumidify joined #minetest
14:13 red-001 !seen aix
14:13 MinetestBot red-001: aix was last seen at 2016-09-28 02:03:45 UTC on #minetest
14:14 red-001 !seen book`
14:14 MinetestBot red-001: book` was last seen at 2016-09-24 20:41:14 UTC on #minetest
14:15 segfault22 If this mod gets widely accepted in the community, I think it will benefit everyone. It may be an unintended side-effect that moreores becomes obsolete, because you can add everything it adds by writing much less, but moreores may still live on if Calinou uses the system in an optional dependency (if the mod is loaded, use its functions instead of doing all of that other stuff)
14:17 segfault22 Part of this project actually comes from a "moreores clone" I made, called morestuff, where eventually I learned how to use an ipairs iterator to go through a table registering lots of items, and using much less code than writing out each register block individually - I made a different mod using that as part of it, but eventually it grew to something much better and now I think ipairs isn't even used in it anywhere
14:19 segfault22 morestuff turned into morestuff2, but the ipairs iterator started with morestuff. Then I made "layers" which tries to add more types of stone and ores for them, also using the iterator. Then I made "res", which used the iterator at first, but then ditched it for function blocks that are much more convenient to use and look prettier
14:20 segfault22 layers was never released and probably never will be, because other mods have started to do what I intended for it to do (more stone types); but to my knowledge, the intended result of my other mod has never been attempted, even with Minecraft
14:22 red-001 I don't think I can follow
14:22 red-001 does your mod add a new way to register blocks?
14:22 red-001 why would this be a big deal?
14:22 segfault22 it pretty much wraps around the whole node/item/tool registering system, and unifies it by making everything reference the material it is made of
14:23 red-001 ohhh
14:23 segfault22 so you can have a pickaxe, sword, axe and shovel, and their durability is based on the strength of the material in the tool head, and the weight is based on the density of the tool head times the number of ingots used to make it, same for the handle
14:24 red-001 so you can register iron the martial and other mods can use it to generate items based on that data
14:24 red-001 sounds usefull
14:24 red-001 might make somethings a bit less confusing
14:25 segfault22 yes, any mod can use this mod's functions until the game is done loading (everything is logged in a special log file, and it is closed when the game is done loading; trying to log to the file when it is closed causes a crash)
14:25 red-001 ?
14:25 red-001 why log file?
14:25 segfault22 there isn't anything in this mod which is useful after the loading phase
14:25 red-001 couldn't you store it in memory?
14:26 red-001 writing to the disk a lot  is generally a bad idea
14:26 red-001 It wears the drive out
14:27 segfault22 There's so much crap that it can log, it could make the minetest log huge, especially when there are more than 8 materials with full sets of objects to be registered; I guess I should make an option to store it in memory or just put it to the standard log, but disabling it completely could cause confusion if there is a crash somewhere
14:27 red-001 i'm not sure what you mean
14:27 red-001 why do you log?
14:28 red-001 everything it registers
14:28 red-001 debuging?
14:28 segfault22 So that if someone screws up something, you can trace it to the exact moment it happened
14:28 segfault22 yes
14:28 red-001 ohhh
14:28 red-001 thats what you mean by log
14:28 segfault22 yeah, it is put to a file though
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14:29 segfault22 maybe I should put it into the minetest log by default, or something that doesn't go to the disk
14:29 red-001 minetest log goes to disk
14:29 segfault22 but it will be configurable. I didn't think about disk wear before
14:29 segfault22 also it is configurable what shows up in the log, by changing a log level number
14:30 segfault22 you can set it to 4 or 5 and only very important stuff is logged (3 messages orso), but 0 would log everything
14:30 red-001 couldn't you try and detect most errors?
14:30 segfault22 it does
14:30 red-001 and print them out when they happen
14:31 segfault22 that is a good idea, to print the non-fatal errors
14:31 red-001 so whats the extend of what you mod can do?
14:31 red-001 can it register items /nodes?
14:32 red-001 or does it just store the data about materials and lets other mods use it?
14:32 red-001 nvm
14:32 segfault22 any node or item that is made of a specific material, or tools made of two (tool head and handle are separate), can be registered, but it requires registering all materials before any objects referencing them are registered
14:32 segfault22 it does register stuff
14:33 segfault22 it does all of the "hard work" for you, so you can focus on stuff like naming materials, balancing the stats, and making the textures right
14:34 red-001 so how does it work internally?
14:34 segfault22 well, it loads a bunch of functions...
14:34 red-001 does it keep a table of all  materials and then go through it when another node registers a node/item/tool using it's api?
14:35 segfault22 the first one is the logger, which also traces what function called the one that's making a message
14:35 segfault22 yes, it does
14:35 red-001 so what mod registered a bad node def is visible in the backtrace?
14:36 segfault22 yes
14:36 red-001 so why does it need it's own logger?
14:37 red-001 you could add an option to dump the list of materials  to a file if they can cause crashes
14:37 segfault22 I may have not interpreted backtrace properly... do you mean the thing that gets printed out when a crash happens?
14:37 red-001 yes
14:38 segfault22 Normally I just skip registering something if a parameter is wrong, so you see unknowns if its already registered and a chat message telling you what was done wrong, and optionally you can check the log for which one specifically is messed up
14:39 segfault22 like, if you have a world where a material was used before, then mess up the id/name and make it un-registerable, it just skips it. Maybe this is a bad idea...
14:40 segfault22 maybe I should add an option, to make it return a bad nil to the next function when something is wrong with an attempted registry entry... currently, it checks for most possible types of errors, and tries to not crash if at all possible
14:41 red-001 well crashs are useful when your a dev
14:41 red-001 they tell you something went wrong
14:41 segfault22 of course
14:41 red-001 and a backtrace tells you where
14:42 red-001 I think there is a minetest function that cause the server to stop and printout a backtrace
14:43 segfault22 so I have a separate function which handles looking up a registered material's properties when needed by an object registering function; I can make it return nil if it can;t find the material, that way when the registering function tries to use the returned data, it crashes
14:43 red-001 you could just have a setting that makes it run that when there is a  serious error
14:43 segfault22 if I can't cause it to crash by returning nil, then I will use that function
14:44 segfault22 it will be configurable; that is one of the important features, to be configurable easily
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14:45 segfault22 I wanted to make it load configuration from a file that's easy to read, but I also wanted a graphical configuration file editor where you can change entries easier and faster than by using a text editor (which does not exist, sadly); for now the configuration options are in the init.lua, like minetest_game default
14:45 FirePowi joined #minetest
14:47 segfault22 like clicking a toggle-button to change the value of something supposed to have true/false, instead of highlighting the word true or false and retyping the other value, potentially misspelling it too
14:47 red-001 add config.lua?
14:47 red-001 run it if it exists and recreate it if it doesn't
14:48 segfault22 I could do that
14:49 segfault22 I was going to make a config.lua which loads the configuration file thats in a different format than Lua, so its obviously not a Lua script that you have to edit for configuration, but that may be just unnecessary complication, because a config.lua can easily set all of the global variables quicker than the other option
14:50 segfault22 a dedicated "configuration file loader" is only necessary if your mod is so big that it has over 1,000 entries (like gregtech)
14:50 segfault22 right?
14:51 segfault22 my mod's configuration options may not number more than 10, excluding the part where materials and other stuff are registered
14:53 segfault22 the main reason I moved away from using an ipairs iterator to register stuff, was that it did not allow other mods to register stuff using my mod. So I used functions, and ever since then I have found even better ways to do just about everything my mod does, and it looks almost totally different each time I change the methodology
14:56 segfault22 I always felt like making this advanced system, and then allowing it to crash when, for example, a tool's material name is malformed and it tries to register the tool with nil values for stuff like "description", is like walking into a door when you can see it's closed, or walking towards stairs and falling down them by assuming the first step is as high as the floor you were walking on at the top... but it is necessary to invoke a crash, so that th
14:56 segfault22 e operator can tell something isn't working...
14:57 segfault22 so in many cases, I have my log make an entry with some humorous remark about how the parameters are screwed up, and that its serving up a fresh nil hot off the grill, then returning nil to the next function which expects like a table or something
15:00 segfault22 so does minetest have its own function to invoke a crash/exit, or should I use the functions provided by Lua?
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15:03 segfault22 does minetest have a function to crash while loading if something goes wrong, or should I use the Lua library?
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15:07 segfault22 standard Lua functions it is
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15:24 Megaf segfault22: just make it index a nil value
15:24 Megaf heh
15:24 Megaf all nll values, anywhere will cause a crash
15:24 segfault22 lol yeah, I could just do that... maybe print a message about why it was done just before
15:25 Megaf but I think you should make it gracefully shutdown
15:25 segfault22 but in some special cases, simply returning a "nice fresh nil hot off the grill" works fine too
15:25 segfault22 yeah, graceful shutdown is better than falling down the stairs expecting the first step to be at the same height level ad the floor at the top
15:26 PjotrOrial joined #minetest
15:28 segfault22 is "nice fresh nil hot off the grill" not funny?.....
15:28 segfault22 it rhymes
15:29 lumidify joined #minetest
15:30 segfault22 I'm pretty sure nobody else came up with that, and I was the first,... if I'm wrong, google doesn't know about it
15:32 PjotrOrial joined #minetest
15:33 segfault22 or try to do arithmetic on a NaN value, maybe even comically just a string with the text NaN
15:34 SylvieLorxu joined #minetest
15:35 Megaf segfault22: the funniest thing I read today, apart from our newly discovered bacteria is this joke. (Read in in Brithish) "How do you call a deer with no eyes?"
15:37 segfault22 I don't get it
15:37 Megaf "How do you call a deer with no eyes?"
15:37 segfault22 uh
15:37 Megaf Answer. "No I deer"
15:38 Megaf no eye deer
15:38 Megaf got it?
15:38 segfault22 xD
15:38 Megaf deer sounds like idea
15:38 segfault22 that's funny
15:38 Megaf in brithish accent
15:38 segfault22 OH
15:38 segfault22 That's hilarious! xD
15:38 Megaf no idea, no eye deer
15:38 Megaf it is!
15:39 segfault22 no eye deer
15:53 segfault22 in soviet Russia, nil return YOU!
15:54 Megaf lol
15:54 sofar when are 'in soviet russia' jokes going to get replaced with 'in putin russia' ?
15:55 Megaf nevah
15:55 segfault22 xD
15:55 segfault22 okay, "in former Soviet Union, nil return YOU!"
15:55 segfault22 /former/
16:00 red-001 in soviet Russia, object verb subject
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16:10 testman sup dudes
16:11 Megaf sup
16:13 testman Would it be possible to connect minetest servers into a distributed network which would behave as one giant server? And then when setting up server give the option to either remain individual server or connect into the network of servers.
16:14 testman That way you could have one big world so that players would not be spread all around the servers with small player limit
16:17 sfan5 theory yes
16:17 sfan5 is this implemented? no
16:18 segfault22 kinda like a distributed server?
16:20 segfault22 I still want a single server to be able to have multiple worlds running at once, best possible implementation allowing players to travel between them easily and taking their items with them because they are in the same database (or part of the same "world" but separate databases)
16:20 testman ^ this
16:21 segfault22 kinda like minecraft dimensions, except better because they can be id'd with any lowercase characters including letters and numbers, not just numbers.
16:22 segfault22 it would also be better if new ones can somehow be created while the game is running, so we can make a mod like mystcraft where you write a descriptive book and use it to generate a world with desired properties
16:22 testman It would be awesome if you had one main server with only basic mods, and then that world would have teleporters / portals to other world instances where you could have other mods / gametypes running.
16:22 segfault22 but at least having multiple worlds, instead of the stacked realms bandaid fix, would be great, even if you can't make new ones while the game is running
16:23 segfault22 yes, it would be nice to have a network for teleporting to other servers via portals - but since the mods are different, your items have to stay behind
16:24 testman that is true
16:26 segfault22 if the servers have identical mods configured identically (possibly loaded from a single source server), there is no reason it wouldn't be possible to take your items with you between the servers
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16:37 red-001 why lua why, who though that making tables references was a good idea
16:40 Megaf oh my, Jordach ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfePZau2AVY
16:40 Megaf !title
16:40 MinetestBot Megaf: [HQ] Axel F - Beverly Hills Cop Theme (Piano cover) - YouTube
16:43 est31 joined #minetest
16:44 Megaf This one is pretty cool too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNwzFhv6Xrc
16:44 red-001 !server Just test server
16:44 MinetestBot red-001: Just test server | 51.37.48.165 | Clients: 1/15, 1/4 | Version: 0.4.14-403dada / minetest | Ping: 35ms
16:45 sami___ joined #minetest
16:46 testman Good taste in music whoever psoted Axel F
16:47 Megaf !server Megaf
16:47 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 3/10, 0/3 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 7ms
16:47 Megaf Oo
16:47 agaran red-001: whats wrong with references? or problem is in using them?
16:48 Megaf I was actually expeting my server to be empty, but ok then
16:48 Megaf 3 is better than enpty I guess
16:48 agaran Megaf: server is bit odd, took me 10 minutes or so to get mapblock loaded..
16:48 agaran but lag is low still..
16:48 Megaf agaran: ok, I'm login in, will fix it
16:49 Megaf agaran: ]Killed
16:49 Megaf just OOMed xP
16:49 Megaf [1872216.286006] Out of memory in UB 102: OOM killed process 1825 (minetestserver) score 0 vm:1307080kB, rss:648520kB, swap:386652kB
16:49 Megaf agaran: server is back
16:49 red-001 lua has no builtin way to copy tables
16:53 agaran red-001: table.copy worked for me usually, but I did not tried to break it..
16:53 agaran Megaf: ah.. explains a lot
16:53 Megaf it was swapping like crazy probably
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16:54 segfault22 why do you need to copy tables?
16:55 agaran when code returns some data in form of table, and you want pass it to next call but keep your own version intact..
16:56 segfault22 it might be better to structure it differently depending on what the need is, like object-oriented stuff
16:56 agaran well perhaps yes, but at least tables are relativelly simple in lua to handle
16:56 segfault22 lua can do object oriented stuff kinda, but it isn't easy to comprehend
16:57 segfault22 java is better at that
16:57 fusion44 joined #minetest
16:57 segfault22 maybe we should NOPE NOPE NOPE
16:57 agaran java threads @work stuff scream moar mem.. and they eat liek 30G ..
16:58 red-001 minetest should add a function to copy tables
16:58 red-001 it would be a lot easier to do in c++
16:59 sofar table.copy()
16:59 agaran sure, I'd like to have such builtin..
16:59 agaran sofar: it is c++ side?
17:01 sofar no
17:01 sofar the problem with table.copy() is that there's 5 different ways to copy a table
17:01 agaran just five?:)
17:01 sofar metatable copy yes or no?
17:01 sofar deep copy or not?
17:02 sofar recursive ok or not?
17:02 sofar 5 +/- 3
17:02 agaran sofar: I am being silly :) sorry
17:02 sofar np
17:02 sofar table.copy() is in minetest/builtin/...
17:03 segfault22 if (hypothetically) you develop mods for minetest, and you have one to be released soon and people like the idea and want to use it, and you pause work on minetest to go play minecraft with a bunch of immersive mods you want to have in minetest but aren't willing to program - is it like sneaking away from your unconditionally-loving girlfriend to have the services of an expensive prostitute?...
17:03 sofar it's just lua
17:03 red-001 shouldn't a copy by definition be an exact copy?
17:03 agaran red-001: sometimes you -want- deep copy, sometimes not..
17:03 segfault22 lets ask philosoraptor
17:03 sofar red-001: metadata?
17:06 agaran red-001: if one size would fit all cases, then we wouldn't have like dozen(s) of .*printf.* variants
17:07 red-001 how do lbms work?
17:07 agaran they get triggered when node is loaded (its block is loaded)
17:08 agaran I use that to pass info to mod that its physical objects are in world or not
17:08 red-001 where can I find an example of how to use them?
17:09 sofar red-001: there's a few use cases added by me to minetest_game
17:09 agaran dunno, I just wrote some silly code, then punched it with hammer until it worked somehow..
17:09 sofar red-001: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game​/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&amp;q=register_lbm
17:09 Calinou https://github.com/zo7/facegen
17:10 Calinou my face will be like the one in the GIF when client-side scripting is added :D
17:10 agaran Calinou: I'd be scared and asking for [ ] disable client side lua when connect to server switch
17:11 Calinou yeah, problem is, servers would start relying on it
17:11 Calinou and break if you don't have it enabled
17:11 Calinou (that's what is happening with JavaScript today)
17:11 agaran well then make from start something that lets server query if client has it enabled..
17:11 agaran yes.. I feel lot of problems with .js dependancy whatever it is actually needed or not
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17:12 segfault22 nobody ever replies to my question comparing premium minecraft (and payware in general) to a prostitute...
17:12 sofar segfault22: geeks don't think about sex
17:13 segfault22 maybe its because people are scared of being associated with "the guy who got banned for saying a bad word"
17:13 segfault22 it's not about "sex", it's an analogy
17:14 segfault22 you could use the oil company as the other end of the analogy, but people wouldn't understand how minecraft is like the oil company because they don't know how the scheme works...
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17:18 segfault22 so people here are in that gray zone where it isn't understood how companies (or other institutions, organizations, foundations...) can trick people into paying for something that isn't worth paying for when there are much better alternatives, yet also don't understand what I said before?...
17:18 sofar how many people vote for Trump?
17:19 segfault22 I don't always vote Democrat, but when I do, it's because I'm dead and someone's using my credentials
17:19 segfault22 when space is so full of energy that could be tapped to power all the world's machines forever at no cost, paying for fuel to run your car is like paying for an operating system or paying a sunlight tax
17:21 sofar all energy on earth that we use, including oil, is a product of sun light
17:21 segfault22 if you can understand that, then my question is obviously fitting because it is a similar analogy - but does it fit as the first part of the analogy, leaving unfinished work at minetest to play mods in minecraft which are desired for minetest but won't be developed by the person who decided to go on hiatus?
17:22 segfault22 sun light is a product of nuclear fusion of hydrogen, and hydrogen is a product of the false vacuum
17:23 segfault22 everything comes from the invisible background energy, commonly called "zero-point energy" because it is the energy that remains when all visible energy is removed
17:23 segfault22 atoms are powered by the energy; without it, they would collapse due to internal losses such as parasitic inductance/capacitance with nearby particles
17:23 sofar everyone ran away now
17:23 segfault22 xD
17:23 sofar it's just you and me
17:24 segfault22 I ran them away with all of that free thinker stuff
17:24 sofar If I'd vote republican I'd be arrested
17:24 segfault22 why?
17:24 segfault22 do you live in uzbekistan or something?
17:25 sofar because neither felons who have their voting righs taken away and non-citizens can't vote in the US
17:25 segfault22 which are you?
17:25 sofar I have not ever been caught for a felony
17:25 AcidNinjaFWHR joined #minetest
17:26 segfault22 okay, so does it mean you're the other?
17:26 sofar are you a "free" thinker or can you logically think too? :P
17:26 segfault22 why not both?
17:27 sofar logic limits the possible things you can think, reducing freedom
17:27 sofar for instance, I can think global warming is made up by Obama to help the chinese
17:27 sofar that's "free thinking"
17:27 segfault22 it depends on your meaning of logic
17:28 sofar but I can not logically think that, since it conflicts with many presumptions, facts etc.
17:28 HonoredGlory joined #minetest
17:29 twoelk I don't think free thinking needs logic
17:29 segfault22 NASA was caught falsifying climate data; the world has actually gotten cooler ever since the 70s, and faster in the last 20 orso years than any time in recorded history; reduction of sea ice is used to prove global warming, bus sea ice is icebergs - ice shelfs are expanding when there is less sea ice... is this not logical?
17:30 sofar no
17:30 segfault22 so it is logical
17:30 sofar it is not logical
17:30 * twoelk has been amazed by some of the unlogic beautiful stuff created in Dadaismus
17:30 segfault22 why?
17:30 sofar this is going to take a while
17:30 cessna151 joined #minetest
17:30 segfault22 you've been drinking that gov't koolaid too eh?
17:31 sofar (a) "NASA was caught falsifying climate data" does not logically mean that climate data was falsified in such a way that global warming is proven a myth, nor does it prove which way the data was falsified
17:31 segfault22 I didn't elaborate because the bot would disallow the message for... being too long.
17:32 segfault22 You can find the rest of the invormation by using the internet
17:32 sofar (b)  the world has actually gotten cooler ever since the 70s -> incorrect, disputed by temperature record and cherry-picked data
17:33 sofar (c) reduction in sea ice has no relation ship with ice shelf size, also Ice shelves are breaking up in larger amounts than ever seen before
17:33 segfault22 it doesn't take a genius to prove what I have said; if you are willing to find the truth, you have to research many sources, including independent ones with no conflict of interests, for yourself
17:33 sofar (d) you omit hundreds of climate records and only cherry pick a few data points
17:34 segfault22 have you actually seen these "climate records", or is your source the evening news?
17:34 sofar I studied geology, including climatology, meteorology
17:34 segfault22 more likely, your source is some organization funded by... the same people who profit from the scam.
17:34 sofar some of my best friends are PhD's in Meteorology
17:35 swift110 joined #minetest
17:35 twoelk I do have a personal feeling things are getting warmer :-D
17:35 sofar unlikely, the universities they work for do not have college football teams
17:35 swift110 joined #minetest
17:36 sofar also, and this is key: thinking "free" does not mean thinking "critically"
17:36 twoelk I was able to skate on ice a lot more as kid than in recent years
17:36 segfault22 aparently, this guy is trying as hard as he can to be a sgt. schultz, so there's no point in feeding this circular argument
17:36 STHGOM joined #minetest
17:37 sofar twoelk: anecdotal evidence
17:37 twoelk I even walked on the Baltic sea as kid, not as far as my father when he was a kid though
17:37 sofar 8 months in a row global temperature records
17:37 sfan5 <segfault22> I didn't elaborate because the bot would disallow the message for... being too long.
17:37 sfan5 which bot are you referring to?
17:38 segfault22 the one that kicks you for writing a message that wraps to 3 or more separate entries
17:38 segfault22 try it
17:38 segfault22 I think its ChanServ
17:38 sfan5 no it's shadowbot
17:38 segfault22 okay, whatever
17:39 sfan5 shadowbot does not have op anymore because shadowninja can't bother to fix it
17:39 sofar segfault22: please, indulge me on your thoughts about (1) women, (2) scientists, (3) immigrants, (4) minorities
17:39 sfan5 write as much as you want
17:39 sfan5 sofar: (3) something something we need to build a wall
17:41 sofar "it worked well for China"
17:41 twoelk hm, women as scientist are a minority among immigrants?
17:41 sofar not so much for the romans in scotland, though
17:41 segfault22 the proposed wall is not designed to keep immigrants out; it is designed such that legitimate immigrants, who don't intend to conduct criminal activities, must get here via the legal process. That's not what China did; their wall was designed to keep the invaders out, and there weren't any gates.
17:41 twoelk sofar, it did work for quite a while
17:42 segfault22 "something something legal something something"
17:42 segfault22 in other words
17:42 sofar 3 more topics
17:42 sofar or did that also cover your stance on women?
17:42 segfault22 I'm not going to bother watching this devolve into another circular argument, so bugger off
17:43 red-001 !server just test
17:43 MinetestBot red-001: Just test server | 51.37.48.165 | Clients: 0/15, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.14-403dada / minetest | Ping: 34ms
17:43 sofar segfault22: I'm not commenting, just asking you to comment, so, no argument
17:43 segfault22 so far, of course
17:43 sfan5 red-001: how come the "UK Government Department for Work and Pensions" hosts a minetest server?
17:43 red-001 ?
17:43 red-001 lol
17:43 sfan5 look up the ip
17:44 segfault22 because magic
17:44 red-001 i'm in a country th
17:44 red-001 that's my server
17:44 red-001 and i'm in ireland
17:44 red-001 sooo...
17:44 sfan5 hm yeah
17:44 sfan5 the other service says vodafone ireland
17:44 red-001 yeah thats right
17:44 red-001 I do have vodafone
17:45 segfault22 they host a minetest server because magic, thats why
17:46 red-001 wikipedia thinks i'm the irish department of health and safety or something like that
17:46 sofar segfault22: I fail to see how denying global warming helps us plan for a warmer future, one that endangers all people on earth. Why would you claim it's "not man made" and not plan ahead calculating the risks?
17:46 sofar segfault22: the only reason to do so is because you want to score a political point
17:46 swift110 sup
17:47 sofar segfault22: the markets already have accepted the point and insurance companies are adjusting for global warming already
17:47 est31 global warming directly only endangers some humans
17:47 est31 but those humans will want to come over to the still nice places
17:47 sofar no, it will likely affect all economies
17:47 est31 it would be major chaos
17:47 est31 many will be positively affected
17:48 sofar it's likely a driving force behind illegal immigration and local turf wars
17:48 est31 over all its nothing we should aspire to have though
17:49 segfault22 Variations in all the worlds' temperatures are driven by changes in the Sun's energy output. When the sun gets hotter, we get hotter; when the sun gets cooler, we get cooler. Any changes in atmospheric gases, apart from a total replacement of it, pail in comparison.
17:49 sofar that's just BS
17:49 est31 segfault22, total bs
17:49 segfault22 The sun is overdue to reduce its output again, and it is predicted to occur very soon.
17:49 sofar please, eat more shit, since you're already full of it
17:50 sofar segfault22: your tinfoil hat came off again
17:50 segfault22 When the circular aruing and fallacious logic fails, resort to insults.
17:50 est31 segfault22, thing is, in future many many more people will live like in the west
17:51 est31 this is because everyone wants to be able to have a hot shower
17:51 est31 and a car, etc
17:51 sofar segfault22: you're either trolling, or you really just want your own world vision to be right
17:51 est31 but those things are very bad for the climate
17:52 sofar the current solar cycle is on a minimum energy output, yet temperatures have continued to rise
17:52 est31 and if we dont switch to renewables before they start buying cars it will be the total nightmare
17:53 est31 segfault22, also consider what trump is planning with his tax plan. He wants to lower the taxes for the very rich and increase the debt by trillions
17:53 * red-001 observes a mostly civil discussion on the internet
17:53 segfault22 There is no reason to keep trying to convince you trolls of anything; it will only be met with circular argument, fallacious logic, and failing that, insults. Thus I will not waste my time with you hicks any more. I have important work to do on stuff that the rest of the community actually wants
17:53 sofar https://www.skepticalscience.com/solar​-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm
17:53 est31 more than any of the wars in the middle east he complains about combined
17:54 sofar segfault22: people like you endanger humanity by ignoring real threats and fearing made up ones
17:54 est31 segfault22, note that you are welcome in the minetest community, regardless of your views. We are not a hug circle and accept differently minded people.
17:54 sofar that mindset is what caused fascism to rise many times in history
17:55 segfault22 Of course I am welcome here, I actually started to make something people really want, so everyone who is truly interested in it won't try to kick me out
17:56 est31 other communities handle these things differently
17:56 est31 just pointing this out.
17:57 segfault22 Other communities are generally not worth dealing with, as they are overrun by pc police and crony shills
17:57 red-001 !server just test
17:57 MinetestBot red-001: No results
17:57 segfault22 at least this place has more genuine members than accounts created for the sole purpose of disruption, trolling and shilling
17:58 segfault22 but as you all can plainly see, there's still several here as well.
17:58 twoelk is this "Just Test" server related to the other two of that name?
17:58 red-001 no
17:58 est31 segfault22, only because someone doesnt agree with you they are not a troll or shill
17:58 sofar so you like this place being 'not PC' but I can't say that I think you have shit for brains?
17:59 red-001 It just means I can't think of a better name
17:59 twoelk don't gat carried away sofar
17:59 segfault22 It was a simple test, really
17:59 twoelk uhm that sort of reads weird
18:00 segfault22 it doesn't matter what I truly believe; the nature of the responses reveal who you really are, and what you are to this community
18:00 red-001 I'm not sure do the players understand that
18:01 sofar segfault22: that's not logical either. if your biased opinion isn't hurting your contributions to the community, then neither would mine
18:01 red-001 !server just test
18:01 MinetestBot red-001: Just test server | 51.37.48.165 | Clients: 0/15, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.14-403dada / minetest | Ping: 35ms
18:03 est31 people may throw names around, thats at least my opinion
18:04 est31 especially when the other person is using freedom of speech as well
18:04 segfault22 It is no longer worthwhile to try and spread my messages by this channel; of the people who are actually online, most either don't care about what I have to give to the community, or are trolls here just to entrap people into vicious circular arguments for the sole purpose of having a circular argument.
18:05 segfault22 For the few who are really interested in what I have to give to the community - If you want to find out about my work or have something to contribute, you should use the forum.
18:05 sofar you are the only one who's trying to disprove climate record by claiming that it's constructed by circular arguments
18:05 aix joined #minetest
18:05 sofar the rest see right through that
18:06 twoelk come on segfault22 your believes should be able to resist some wind in the face
18:06 segfault22 of course, but it is a waste of time trying to dispel the constant generation of circular arguments intended to disrupt.
18:06 sofar let's change the topic then
18:07 segfault22 if you want to know about what I know, you will have to ask me directly, without the intent to troll and shill instead of listening and doing independent research to confirm what I may say.
18:07 sofar what's your feeling on organizations like politifact?
18:08 sofar who fact-check
18:08 segfault22 Anyone with enough time and good sense can find that everything I have said is true
18:08 sofar I'd never claim that everything I said is true
18:09 sofar I know, and understand well that everyone, including me, makes mistakes
18:09 segfault22 If it wasn't true, I would not waste my time saying it. Note, these people devoted to trolling and shilling are the same ones who would claim that the world's resources are scarce, that poor people are poor because they are lazy, and so on with the grass is blue sky is green belief system.
18:10 sofar please, indulge me and assume you had made mistakes in your assessment about climate for a second - hypothetically, and you were wrong about the whole thing.
18:11 sofar wait what? poor people aren't lazy
18:11 sofar they're mostly poor because of hidden biases in society perpetuating their wealth gap
18:12 red-001 could you use [off]?
18:12 segfault22 There are enough resources to fulfill the needs of all the children of mother Earth; only money is scarce - it is not the cause of the world's problems, but it is a tool by means of which power is leveraged to conduct activities which cause them. In many places, people who do hard work remain poor because they are not treated fairly by the system - the working poor - and this would not occur if poor people were poor because they are lazy
18:13 sofar oh I see where this is going. the poor are not lazy, it's the system. Let's use trickle-down economics to give money to the wealthy to solve the problem.
18:13 red-001 #politics
18:13 segfault22 If I am going to put a message forward, could I at least get it into the log so people can see it later? Otherwise its just going to disappear, especially because most people who read it at first don't care anyways
18:14 red-001 #discussion
18:17 segfault22 As I said before, I will not put this information into the chat any more. It has been proven that it is a waste of my time and effort; so if you want to have this information, you will have to contact me via the forum or my email address. If you are interested in those mods I'm developing for everyone to enjoy (advanced resources system, yet-to-be-named power system mod, maybe more), use the forum.
18:18 segfault22 In the future I will make a server, and you will be able to contact me there sometimes, either when I am online or by using the message function which I will include in the mod pack.
18:19 segfault22 if all goes well, said server will be dedicated, and there won't be significant downtime.
18:19 sofar I'll leave this discussion with this: “A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”
18:20 segfault22 I have important work to do, and I have already wasted too much of my time here, mostly talking about random useless things before realizing there is a sickness here.
18:22 segfault22 I may come here for a short time in the future to announce the release of my mods or creation of my server, but other than that don't expect to find me here again.
18:22 segfault22 in fact, if you are online and you see me here online, consider that you are very lucky
18:23 segfault22 All truths go through three stages of development. First, they are ridiculed. Second, they are violently opposed. And finally, they are accepted as self-evident.
18:24 sofar you are ridiculing global warming
18:24 sofar make sure you vaccinate your kids, btw
18:24 segfault22 For many things in our world we are near the transition between the second and the final. The people must decide if society will change and prosper as a whole once again, or descend into chaos and ultimately, death.
18:24 sofar I'd hate to see them get preventable, horrible childhood diseases
18:25 sofar also, floss
18:25 segfault22 my work here is done
18:26 sofar I hope he flosses
18:26 red-001 The irc log for today might cause a buffer overflow
18:27 red-001 i'm not sure was the logging bot tested to see if it can handle logs this long
18:28 tpe joined #minetest
18:29 sofar I'm sure it's fine
18:29 red-001 left #minetest
18:30 twoelk it's all in the logs
18:34 sofar it's interesting to read back the logs. I'm very well aware that nothing I can say would have swayed his opinion.
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19:04 FirePowi Hi everyone !
19:05 behalebabo joined #minetest
19:05 * FirePowi pray Jordach for some octaves <3
19:06 Jordach CDEFGAB
19:17 swift110 hmm
19:22 sythe joined #minetest
19:38 behalebabo joined #minetest
19:40 FirePowi Jordach,  Haha ! *cuty eyes*
19:41 FirePowi I want sounds files for a third and a fourth octave for mesecon noteblock, please !! <3
19:45 Calinou Jordach: bra sizes? :P
19:46 Calinou from most favorite to least favorite?
19:46 FirePowi Huhu.
19:55 FirePowi Jordach, how did you do the noteblock sounds, please ? I really want to add 1-2 octaves !
20:01 sfan5 Calinou: why would someone's most favorite be C?
20:02 sfan5 !server ping:most
20:02 MinetestBot sfan5: ANDROID SERVER | mineandroid.zapto.org:30004 | Clients: 3/50, 1/4 | Version: 0.4.14 / minetest | Ping: 368ms
20:02 sfan5 >android
20:02 Jordach Calinou, :^?
20:02 sfan5 that explains it
20:02 FirePowi sfan5, why not ?
20:02 sfan5 C is too small obviously
20:03 FirePowi It depend on preferences. :o
20:03 Calinou :p
20:03 FirePowi Well in fact, I admit I like d.
20:03 Void7 joined #minetest
20:03 Jordach ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
20:03 FirePowi … /d
20:03 sfan5 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
20:04 Jordach ( ͡°‿ ͡°)
20:07 FirePowi ç
20:07 sfan5 ü
20:07 FirePowi ç4(
20:07 FirePowi (Those are some caracteres I can't do in Minetest :'( )
20:11 sfan5 why not
20:11 sfan5 even ł works
20:21 red-001 joined #minetest
20:21 red-001 !server just test
20:21 MinetestBot red-001: Just test server | 51.37.48.165 | Clients: 6/15, 2/6 | Version: 0.4.14-403dada / minetest | Ping: 35ms
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22:14 Megaf !server Megaf
22:14 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 1/10, 0/5 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 8ms
22:16 Megaf sfan5: ç dont work in minetest
22:16 Megaf ñ ã ẽ ĩ õ ũ dont either
22:16 Megaf you just can "type" them
22:17 Megaf to make ç here I do alt gr + c then c
22:17 Megaf ã is alt gr + n then a
22:17 Megaf (Irish keyboard) (similar to brithish)
22:18 Megaf if I type on the server console they will show correctly, I just can't make them in Minetest
22:18 tokage what's the wecommended amount of dedidated ramen I should have to server...?
22:19 Megaf ramen? :)
22:19 Megaf 512M at least tokage
22:19 Megaf and then 512M of swap at least
22:19 tokage tanks
22:19 Megaf you're welcome
22:20 Megaf Calinou: do you use ç in French?
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