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IRC log for #minetest, 2016-08-25

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Time Nick Message
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00:14 agrecascino https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=7&t=15388
00:14 agrecascino help
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01:29 Resurgence Hi
01:29 Resurgence It's me Bakfast
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01:31 Resurgence Does anyone know bakfast
01:34 Resurgence Hello why is no one talking
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02:06 segfault22 Does anyone have a copy of 0gb_us mod Land Claim (the original one)?
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02:12 Chinchou Do get_look_yaw() and get_look_horizontal() return identically?
02:12 Chinchou Or is there some difference that needs to be taken into account when switching?
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02:28 segfault22 haha multicraft got DMCA'd
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02:32 segfault22 Overhook Double-legtrip DMCA TakeDown
02:35 segfault22 MultiCraft is a minetest clone; Minetest is not a Minecraft clone because it is substantially different - only the mods are too much like Minecraft, by implementing the same concepts as in Minecraft, but the mods can be changed and are not really part of the core. There is really only one thing that Minecraft is "known for" and is implemented in the minetest core - the node system - but in some time that will also change...
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02:41 segfault22 Surely there's some kind of mineral that can be mixed with water to form a gas that ignites on contact with air, allowing a practical way to make furnaces require fire to work; then it is only a matter of time before they also use a heat-system where the cooking time and result is determined by the temperature of the furnace (cooking eggs should take less heat than smelting steel)
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02:45 segfault22 Do you think furnaces should use a source of ignition to burn fuel, so long as said source of ignition is readily-available early in the game?
02:46 segfault22 for example, it makes no sense that the only fire-starting method be flint and steen, then require it to be used, because to make steel you need to use the furnace and to use the furnace you need steel for the flint and steel (catch 22)
02:46 segfault22 steel
02:50 segfault22 like a bow-drill to start fire, then you use that to make a "burn pile", then you take a stick that's burning on the end and use it to ignite the furnace
02:52 segfault22 We would need some way to implement fuel types having an ignition temperature, because you can't just light coal (mineral) without significant heat - maybe the fuel-section of the GUI should have four slots, and the furnace also stores a metadata value "temperature", which determines if a fuel-item can be consumed to add to the fire
02:52 segfault22 This and the other stuff I have been talking about here and on the forums is all necessary before I can start a server, because I want it to be cool and revolutionary
02:57 segfault22 is this reasonable, or have I finally gone off the deep end?
02:59 segfault22 have I gone totally insane with these delusions of over-complex in-game methods?
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03:17 Chinchou segfault22, I like the idea, intellectually, but even I acknowledge that there's a balance to be struck between fun and "realism".  That said, that balance is different for different people - I'm quite interested in seeing temperature differences.  With temperature differences in furnaces, Technic could finally have a way to mimic the different methods of smelting/forging iron...
03:17 Chinchou I guess the point is that you might be trying for too much with that.
03:19 Chinchou Hrm...  Still, there's charcoal, and you mentioned a bow drill.  It may be reasonable to require burning wood into charcoal before being able to use coal.
03:19 segfault22 I don't want it to be too realistic, just less like minecraft. It could still be easy to get started, by making the crafting for a bow firestarter or something easy and the usage, that way it isn't too realistic (processes for making the bow string easier than real-life) but it isn't Minecraft either
03:20 Chinchou I'm not sure how the step from charcoal to bituminous coal/lignite would be done.
03:20 Chinchou s/done/implemented
03:20 segfault22 As long as it's not too much like minecraft, it doesn't have to be any closer to realism
03:21 segfault22 I figure that the heat from burning enough wood (or enough charcoal, but requiring less of it) would eventually be enough to ignite the coal, but the furnace has to be hot enough for that to hppen The coal could be beneath the other fuel items in the input-slots (also unlike reality, more heat is put into the stuff when it's over the burning material) and it would still work
03:23 segfault22 charcoal would be enough to smelt basic metals like copper/tin/bronze or iron/steel, which are used to get lots of coal which can be used to smelt more difficult metals like iridium, tungsten, adamantium, and so on
03:24 segfault22 in real life it takes like a whole ton of charcoal to smelt a single ingot of copper-ore, which is how ancient civilizations justified mass deforestation and ended up converting huge patches of land to barren desert in just a few generations
03:30 Chinchou What I'd like to see, but am currently too incompetent to implement, is an Archimedes' Screw pump.
03:30 Chinchou Then I could start crossing DF with MT...
03:30 Chinchou Excuse me.
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03:33 DI3HARD139 @segfault22 Any luck in finding a copy? Or did you decide to just port it over?
03:34 segfault22 I haven't found a copy yet, but I also haven't decided to port it over yet. I guess that while I wait to see if anyone has a copy, I can work on my other mods instead of waiting around
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05:41 segfault22 max sendq exdeeded?
05:41 segfault22 vurt deh furk
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06:56 segfault22 I found some force-op hack tool for Minecraft... it's probably BS, but if it really works (MicroSh!t is known for security vulnerabilities, so it's possible) I'm going to go grief some popular servers, help subtract their ratings >:D
06:57 segfault22 Not sure if that would really help increase the Minetest ratings at all, but it would at least start to make it look like Minecraft is reaching its peak and falling down off the other end
06:58 segfault22 who doesn't want to see Minecraft turn into "oh you mean that old stupid game nobody plays any more? lol n00b"
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07:17 swift110 lol
07:19 segfault22 it's in a .rar file but no password, so maybe it's legit
07:19 segfault22 it doesn't ask for your username AND password, just username
07:19 Chinchou Is a RAR archive /ever/ legitimate?  Just, ew.
07:20 segfault22 but it looks like it's BS because it has an option to "delete all backups", yet there's several ways to backup the files, so how can it know which one is being used, if it's even a conventional method?
07:20 segfault22 SOmetimes I put my files in .rar archives, it saves space on lesser storage media and file sharing sites with limits...
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07:21 Chinchou So does bzip2, XZ, LZMA2...
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07:23 segfault22 yes but those are generally harder to set-up in windows systems, or just not available
07:23 lumidify 7zip?
07:23 segfault22 minecraft kiddos almost always use windows
07:24 segfault22 okay, so there's other methods of archiving files, does it make them totally illegitimate by default just for using RAR?
07:24 Chinchou LZMA2 is actually /easier/ than RAR on a 'dows system, as it is what 7-zip uses.
07:24 segfault22 there's lots of other fudge-factor in this supposed hack tool, least of which being the archive format it is stored in on the file-server
07:24 segfault22 That's why I said it's probably BS
07:25 Chinchou It generally indicates illegitimacy and/or incompetence, but it isn't a surety, no.
07:26 Chinchou Still yeah, a "hack tool" on a 'dows system is more of a red flag for "this is fake" than being stored in a RAR archive.
07:26 segfault22 the double-adfly links are the most suspicious, but I've had to go through that to download hack clients like Wurst which work on any system and has neat XRAY, so it's also not a surety....
07:26 segfault22 There's only one way to find out - run it
07:27 lumidify Maybe try it in a virtual box?
07:27 Chinchou The last time I tried to develop on 'dows, I ended up getting nowhere.  The system itself is horribly unfriendly.
07:27 segfault22 windows virtualbox?
07:27 lumidify Just so you don't infect your main os
07:28 lumidify Yeah, windows is terrible for developing, but of course it's just terrible in general...
07:28 Chinchou ^
07:28 Chinchou Aye, that it is
07:28 segfault22 right, there's no way to infect Linux unless you configured something stupidly and made your system vulnerable, only windows is vulnerable by default, so I should run it in a VM
07:29 Chinchou Why should I /need/ 20+ GB of disk space for the "OS"?
07:29 lumidify You *can* infect Linux, but it's a whole lot more difficult.
07:29 Chinchou ^
07:29 Chinchou Linux systems are far from foolproof
07:29 Chinchou They're generally far more secure, but nothing can be completely foolproof
07:29 lumidify Indeed
07:30 lumidify I have a copy of windows on an external hard drive which I keep shut away in a cupboard all the time :D
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07:30 Chinchou Pfft
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07:31 Chinchou Wine has it's problems too - like the exploit in the image-handling stuff.  Was it for JPEGs?
07:32 Chinchou I don't recall too well, but it mirrored the vulnerability that is present on 'dows.
07:32 lumidify I dunno, I've just tried to use programs that work natively on Linux
07:32 Chinchou Why, I don't know.
07:32 Chinchou Aye, same.  The only reason I use Wine is to run old games.
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08:46 Calinou <lumidify> You *can* infect Linux, but it's a whole lot more difficult.
08:46 Calinou this is true even with Wine :P
08:47 lumidify Yeah, I guess :P
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08:49 segfault22 Does minetest override/remove the lua debug.*() functions?
08:50 segfault22 I have to use debug.getinfo() to determine what function called the current function, so that if an incorrect value is passed, we know "who did it"
08:57 segfault22 so it's debug.getinfo(n).name which puts a string, otherwise it tries to put a table, and if you try to concatenate that with " > " you get a bork
09:04 segfault22 Is it okay to set all of my registering functions to empty/nil via minetest.after(0,<set the values to nil here>)?
09:06 segfault22 said functions are only intended to be used when mods are loading, and any use of them during the game may try to call minetest.register_*() functions, which may crash the server, and if I leave the functions "open", someone will try to use them to deliberately crash the server through their mod for whatever reason they want (compiled mods where the source code is invisible)
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09:24 segfault22 Is there any way to put lua code inside a variable or some other reference other than a function, such that when it is referenced, the code will be run as if it were written in place of the reference?
09:25 segfault22 I would go bug people on minetest_dev or minetest_delta about it, but there's likely even less people online there, if any at all...
09:28 segfault22 it's almost as bad as looking for a copy of 0gb_us land claim mod
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09:28 segfault22 welcome
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09:46 segfault22 I really don't like debug.getinfo(2).name.." > "..debug.getinfo(1).name code blocks taking up so much space in my mod files,... I would rather just keep it in a separate spot and reference it with a short variable or something
09:47 segfault22 maybe I'll just make a function, increase the stack numbers so that it ignores said function, and insert code to check and make sure debug.getinfo(n).name is not nil, and if it is, replace the nil with "init" or something...
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09:57 segfault22 I figured it out, nevermind
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10:40 segfault22 From now on I'm using the GPL license for my mods
10:42 segfault22 is that bad?
10:53 segfault22 "Every morning just before breakfast, I don't want no coffee or tea; Just me and good buddy Weiser, That's all I ever need"
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11:01 Calinou [12:39:40] <segfault22> From now on I'm using the GPL license for my mods
11:01 Calinou this makes them not mergeable in Minetest core without your permission
11:02 Calinou LGPLv2.1+ is fine, LGPLv2.1-only, LGPLv2-only, GPLv2 (only or +), GPLv3 (only or +), are not OK for us
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11:04 Chinchou GPL is rather restrictive
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11:19 Calinou Chinchou: still better than proprietary licenses :P
11:20 Calinou I tell people to choose GPL/CC BY-SA rather than a non-commercial clause, always
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13:55 aix Hi everyone!
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14:45 agaran Hello
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15:47 agaran hi Calinou
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16:12 segfault22 does minetest modify or omit the lua builtin debug.*() functions?
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16:39 sfan5 segfault22: yes
16:39 segfault22 which one, modify or omit?
16:40 segfault22 thank you
16:40 sfan5 omit i think
16:40 segfault22 That's no good. I will have to include the missing library file(s) in my mod, or make them a required dependency. My mod can not work without debug.getinfo()
16:41 sfan5 go bug ShadowNinja about thaqt
16:41 sfan5 it makes things much more secure™
16:41 segfault22 So it was recent?
16:42 sfan5 mod security was added last year iirc
16:42 segfault22 There isn't any way the debug functions can be abused in the lua modding api is implemented properly.
16:43 sfan5 there is
16:43 sfan5 it's not about implementing properly
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16:43 segfault22 then it's not implementted properly, ie. sandboxed
16:43 sfan5 removing some debug functions is part of the sandbox
16:44 segfault22 otherwise you would be able to take-over a server that has the luacontrollers mod, which has yet to be accomplished by many people who have tried
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16:44 segfault22 debug.getinfo() is harmless
16:44 sfan5 luacontrollers uses a different kind of sandbox
16:44 sfan5 no it's not
16:44 sfan5 actually
16:44 sfan5 have you verified that minetest omits debug.getinfo()
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16:46 segfault22 Not yet, I came here to ask before I resort to that option, but I guess it won't hurt to give it a go since we really don't kno
16:46 agaran anyone knows if spurious teleporting to -max,current-y,-max coords has some fix?
16:50 sfan5 agaran: recompiling the client sometimes helps
16:50 rubenwardy segfault22, why does you mod need debug.getinfo() to work?
16:51 rubenwardy other than for debugging
16:51 segfault22 It's so that we can determine what function called the current function, when putting entries to the log, so that in the case of an error you know exactly what caused it
16:52 rubenwardy so it's for debugging
16:52 segfault22 Otherwise, it's guesswork until you happen upon the spot where something is spelled wrong or the wrong data type
16:52 rubenwardy in order to support sandboxed more, you could do:
16:52 agaran sfan5: it never occurs when I play over lan/localhost server but it does over internet, okay, recompile to same version or git head?
16:52 segfault22 Are you saying debug.getinfo() is disabled?
16:52 rubenwardy local debug_getinfo = debug and debug.getinfo or (function() return "?" end)
16:53 rubenwardy not sure if it is
16:53 rubenwardy could find out if you give me a few mins
16:53 sfan5 agaran: same version
16:53 rubenwardy if it is though, use that line ^
16:54 rubenwardy replace any calls to debug.getinfo with debug_getinfo
16:54 rubenwardy then it will just return "?" when in sandbox mode
16:54 rubenwardy alternatively, use error("") to cause a hard crash and a stack traceback
16:55 rubenwardy that way you'll still get a nice traceback in sandboxed mode
16:55 segfault22 It's useless if it doesn't return the name of the functions in the stack, without crashing the server
16:55 rubenwardy but the mod will crash the server
16:55 rubenwardy segfault22, your logic really shouldn't depend on debug.getinfo
16:55 rubenwardy debug.getinfo should only be for debug
16:55 segfault22 This is debugging
16:56 rubenwardy then it doesn't matter if the debug isn't as good in sandbox mod
16:56 rubenwardy +e
16:57 sfan5 segfault22: if you look here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob​/48b3bb980d4a026d32739acc1982f16e3c303c5b​/src/script/cpp_api/s_security.cpp#L108
16:57 sfan5 you can see that debug.getinfo is whitelisted
16:57 rubenwardy well, you don't need that code then :P
16:57 segfault22 The only reason it is used is so you can tell where an error occurred, even if it doesn't crash the server. if the server owner screws up something and a whole bunch of nodes turn to unknown, they can either search through the files looking closely for any bad spot, possibly more than once - or just look in the log-file to see which function caused the error
16:57 rubenwardy * :)
16:57 segfault22 If it is not disabled, then it's all good and this will work fine. Good.
16:57 segfault22 thank you sfan5
16:58 rubenwardy segfault22, you may be interested in debug.traceback() as well
16:59 segfault22 is there a way to fix the minetest client not creating a window-bar in the window-panel, when the window appears? I end up with the minetest client minimized and I can't get it back because there's no bar to click on to maximize it again :/
16:59 rubenwardy "returns a string with a traceback of the call stack" https://www.lua.org/manual​/5.2/manual.html#pdf-debug.traceback
16:59 rubenwardy segfault22, os?
16:59 segfault22 linuxmint-17.3
17:00 rubenwardy try alt + left click and drag on the window
17:00 rubenwardy I had this problem when I used to use Unity
17:00 segfault22 it appears to be related to the hide-all-windows thing in the corner of my screen, because if I minimize the other windows the good-ol' way, it works fine
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17:03 segfault22 apparently debug.getinfo() doesn't work because it causes "attempt to index a nil value"; there's one way I could have done this wrong, so I'll go verify.
17:04 rubenwardy awesome, didn't know that lua had coroutines https://www.lua.org/pil/9.1.html
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17:10 segfault22 I set-up an if-then to catch the condition that debug.getinfo(<n>).name == nil, if so then the local variable is simply set to "MAIN", otherwise use debug.getinfo(<n>).name as a string, but it fails on "attempt to index nil value"
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17:12 rubenwardy debug.getinfo(<n>) == nil?
17:14 segfault22 the <n> is a number, 2 or 3
17:14 segfault22 .name is to get just the function name field, a string type
17:16 segfault22 Okay I just caught it - when I try to run the function in Minetest, all of the debug.getinfo(<n>).name values are nil/empty; when I run it in the lua demo at lua.org/cgi-bin/demo, it works fine and does exactly as expected. Therefore, I conclude that debug.getinfo() is NOT "whitelisted", it is disabled.
17:17 sfan5 it is whitelisted
17:17 segfault22 define "whitelisted" in your context...
17:17 sfan5 ...you can use the function?
17:17 segfault22 try
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17:20 sfan5 segfault22: works for me
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17:31 rubenwardy segfault22, I understood that <n> is a number
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17:31 rubenwardy but does the function ever return nil
17:31 rubenwardy the error message means that you've tried to do (nil).some_key
17:32 rubenwardy so either it returns nil, or the error is elsewhere
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17:51 segfault22 Well it seems to work only outside the mod...
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17:52 segfault22 there's a problem somewhere but it isn't obvious
17:57 segfault22 I tricked it! the variable names and the mod name are different, but everything else is the same, and it works. But when I use the variable names and mod name of the real mod, it doesn't work.
17:57 segfault22 There isn't a problem with my code, there's something wrong in the engine'
17:58 segfault22 and NOW it's working using the code I had before... wtf...
17:58 segfault22 I didn't change anything except the mod name for a short test mod, and now it works...
17:59 segfault22 so if debug.getinfo(2).name is nil, then debug.getinfo(3).name crashes the game...
18:01 segfault22 when I have a function call the debug.getinfo().name handling function, and it has the calling_function.." -> "..called_function block, the calling_function is the variable that it is set to if calling_function is nil; but when I decrease the stack by one level, all of a sudden both of them are set to the nil-replacer value, and it crashes on "attempt to index nil value" which is wrong
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18:03 segfault22 it's only when I call debug.getinfo(3).name inside a function, without a different function calling that function. This does not work like the Lua devs said it should!
18:04 segfault22 either they lied, or they don't know their code is broken
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18:10 segfault22 If you do debug.getinfo(1).name outside a function, it returns nil. If you do debug.getinfo(2).name, you get the error because debug.getinfo(2) is entirely nil...
18:11 segfault22 So I have to figure out how to detect when either debug.getinfo(2).name is nil OR debug.getinfo(2) is nil, and the same for debug.getinfo(3).name and debug.getinfo(3)...
18:11 segfault22 this is stupid
18:11 segfault22 Lua is too hipster we should have used java or something for mods
18:11 segfault22 but would that just be worse?
18:12 agaran then minetest would barelly run on my work toys..
18:12 segfault22 Maybe Lua wouldn't be so bad if the Lua devs didn't screw up the debug.getinfo() function
18:12 agaran now it sometimes need 2G mem.. for server.. with java, toys having 128G may not suffice..
18:13 segfault22 fine no java, but Lua is no good if you need debug information, because the debug.getinfo() function is screwed up
18:13 segfault22 even without minetest it's screwed up
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18:13 agaran I'd prefer perl if you ask me.. but we have lua and we need to live with that..
18:17 segfault22 fork time
18:17 agaran nope
18:17 segfault22 why not?
18:17 agaran day has only 24h..
18:18 segfault22 it would be difficult to port everything over to perl, right? we would have to redo everything, mapgen code being only part of the hard part
18:18 agaran dunno if difficult, but a lot had to be changed indeed..
18:18 agaran thats why I'd rather spend time on my mod instead of forking minetest..
18:19 segfault22 because lavaflow development instead of the language developers making their functions do what they are documented to do in the first place
18:20 agaran well, lavaflow canbe used to make nice lava-stream-lamp
18:20 segfault22 why worry about something like debug.getinfo() sometimes returning nil and screwing up debug.getinfo().name? it only causes developers down the line to have to write 2x the code to get a single function done, why bother fixing it right?
18:20 agaran segfault22: oh, then fix lua?
18:21 segfault22 not possible
18:21 segfault22 this should have been fixed in lua 5.1, it won't be fixed even in lua 5000.1
18:21 segfault22 if it even lives long enough to get that far, that is
18:22 agaran well... lua 5k is not that bad.. I worried it won't be fixed even in lua2^128
18:22 segfault22 offtopic: what would lua version 5000 be like (since it's usually several years between updates, that's beyond the year 10000)
18:23 segfault22 will we even write it with a keyboard any more? will it even use letters?
18:23 agaran well.. we may be using cobol instead.. after some degradation of civilization.. then getting back to 1960
18:24 segfault22 lol and the kiddos on here be all like "derp civilization rulez it'll never fall apart, derp teh internet iz forever!!!!1!oneone"
18:25 agaran well..
18:26 segfault22 at the rate we are destroying the world and wasting abundant resources into damaging pollutants, civilization might not be sustainable on earth for another few million years in just a few more years
18:26 segfault22 "we" as in the GC's and their budds in corporate high-up positions
18:27 segfault22 not "us" as in you and me
18:27 segfault22 and the other people who use the game, and are stuck as "underlings" while the high-ups do as they please to our fragile world
18:28 segfault22 maybe we should port minetest's Lua API to Cobol and make a fork
18:28 agaran don't get on that topic.. we might agree and nothing will change anyway, better to do thing you can affect actually..
18:30 segfault22 well I guess I'll just have to handle the case where debug.getinfo().name returns nil as well as the case debug.getinfo() itself returns nil and would cause an error if you try to get the .name field
18:31 agaran .name can be nil if node got wiped out from memory I guess..
18:31 segfault22 2x the code, 1x the intended return value
18:34 segfault22 it's okay if debug.getinfo().name returns nil because I invented a way to catch that, but if debug.getinfo() itself returns nil, attempting to fetch the .name field causes an error because debug.getinfo() = nil and nil doesn't have a .name field
18:35 agaran can't you just local dinfo = debug.getinfo() if dinfo and dinfo.name..... ?
18:37 segfault22 yeah, something like that
18:38 segfault22 I was thinking, "if debug.getinfo(n) = nil then calling_function = "main" elseif debug.getinfo(n).name = nil then calling_function = "main" else calling_function = debug.getingo(n).name end"
18:38 segfault22 damn keybpoardsfdgeugtfeuihfkhqgrwjuejhnbioe
18:39 rubenwardy ew perl
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18:39 agaran I saw note somewhere to not use =nil, but instead if value, also this way you call few times debuginfo..
18:40 segfault22 ?
18:40 agaran rubenwardy: I like it :-)
18:40 agaran segfault22: to not do if a = nil then foo()  end but do if a then foo() end
18:40 rubenwardy local info = debug.getinfo(3);   info_name = info and info.name
18:41 agaran rubenwardy: heh, I forget that you can use this way and as sort of terenary operator..
18:41 rubenwardy also, == nil
18:42 rubenwardy also, not x
18:42 segfault22 oh, so "if debug.getinfo(n) then if debug.getinfo(n).name then calling_function = debug.getinfo(n).name else calling_function = "main" end else calling_function = main end"
18:42 agaran you know what I mean..
18:43 segfault22 I can't use the whole table returned by debug.getinfo(n); I just need the string for the .name field
18:43 rubenwardy segfault22, https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy​/6610c533777c59330407817e0cb30370
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18:44 segfault22 yeas I did mean "main" sorry
18:44 rubenwardy you shouldn't call debug.getinfo(n) multiple times, really
18:45 segfault22 "main" is just a placeholder string for the case when the calling function is nil and the rare case when the called function is also nil; it should probably be something else, like "unknown", but idk
18:46 rubenwardy I understand
18:46 rubenwardy that's what I guessed
18:47 segfault22 Okay, maybe I should do something like "local info = debug.getinfo() if info == nil then calling_function = "main" elseif info.name = nil then calling_function = "main" else calling_function = info.name end"
18:47 rubenwardy ew
18:47 rubenwardy just use my code
18:47 segfault22 but you said I shoudn't call debug.getinfo(n) multiple times
18:48 rubenwardy "and" isn't that readable, so maybe use         if info then     return info.name or "main"      else    return "main"    end
18:48 rubenwardy I CALLED IT ONCE
18:48 rubenwardy https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/6610c53​3777c59330407817e0cb30370#file-sdsd-lua-L4
18:48 segfault22 oh you put "instead of"
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18:50 segfault22 I thought you knew I can't use debug.getinfo(n) or debug.getinfo(n).name if either are nil; the goal is to REPLACE either of those with a place-holder string if they return nil, otherwise just use the valid string from debug.getinfo(n).name
18:50 segfault22 Maybe I didn't make it clear enough
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18:51 segfault22 basically your code at the end does "return nil and nil or "main"" if debug.getinfo(n) is nil or if debug.getinfo(n).name is nil
18:51 segfault22 sorry
18:52 rubenwardy for god's sake, learn lua
18:52 rubenwardy "a" and "b" returns "b"
18:52 rubenwardy "a" or "b" returns "a"
18:52 rubenwardy nil or "b" returns "b"
18:54 segfault22 So the "and" keyword has different functions for different context... what a hack
18:54 rubenwardy http://hisham.hm/2011/05/04/lua​s-and-or-as-a-ternary-operator/
18:55 segfault22 Lua really is hipster
18:55 rubenwardy nope, and always work like that
18:55 rubenwardy Javascript does the same thing
18:55 rubenwardy because true and true   returns true
18:56 segfault22 so any value that is not nil or false is also true? wtf
18:56 Calinou is 0 true in Lua?
18:56 segfault22 a number shouldn't be a boolean
18:56 rubenwardy yeah,    if "blehbleh" then
18:57 rubenwardy > if 0 then print("true") else print("false") end
18:57 rubenwardy true
18:59 rubenwardy tbf, I don't like "and" very much
19:03 segfault22 Your code appears to catch the case that debug.getinfo(n) is nil as well as when debug.getinfo(n).name is nil... HOWEVER, it fails to catch the condition when debug.getinfo(n).name is a valid string value. "for god's sake learn lua" huh?
19:04 rubenwardy ....
19:04 segfault22 Now go test it and see if I'm wrong
19:04 rubenwardy > info = {name="bleg"};   print(info and info.name or "main")
19:04 rubenwardy bleg
19:06 rubenwardy anyway, sorry for snapping :P
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19:19 segfault22 Regardless, there is a fault, though it isn't really important: "return info and info.name or "main"" may return a table if info.name is nil or false but info isn't nil or false - this usually shouldn't happen, because you would expect the table "info" to have a .name field if it is not nil or false; but it is possible, and in that case it will cause a crash later if an attempt is made to concatenate the returned value (in this case, a table) as a
19:19 segfault22 string value.
19:22 rubenwardy > local info={}; print(info and info.name or "main")
19:22 rubenwardy main
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19:25 segfault22 That appears to be so when I run it, but it contradicts the explanation for how OR works because the table, first argument, is true, yet it eturns the second argument. it should only return the second argument when the first is false.
19:26 segfault22 I'm done fooling with hack code; I'll make something more reliable and human-readable, even if it is technically taking longer to process. bye
19:28 rubenwardy not that he'll see this, but it runs like (info and info.name) or "main", so if the brackets return nil then it will return "main"
19:32 rubenwardy also, hacks are things that run on an unstable base - this is literally using a language feature
19:33 raingloom joined #minetest
19:34 rubenwardy run on an unstable base -> makes the code unstable, inefficient, or hard to read, or the logic is floored
19:34 rubenwardy *flawed
19:41 agaran readability can be questionable as long as it is stable/efficient and properly working
19:46 rubenwardy Well, code should be maintainable above efficient imo
19:46 Passant joined #minetest
19:47 rubenwardy Well,
19:47 rubenwardy If the code is O(FMG) then maybe that doesn't apply
19:47 Passant hellooo everyone! is it possible to create a permanent particlespawner wich is visivble for every player and also for new joined players?
19:48 Passant *which is visible
19:48 rubenwardy I personally find    return a and b or c     easier to read a bigger if statement doing the same thing
19:52 agaran rubenwardy: well.. :)
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20:08 segfault22 rubenwardy: just to clarify, when I said I don't care, I mean I don't care if you want to apologize because it doesn't really matter - you don't just say something on accident without actually believing it is so. I do care if you're having some kind of trouble in life, because I would not wish that on anyone really. At least, not anyone who isn't in with/working with the people trying to destroy civilization by wasting our abundant resources into p
20:08 segfault22 ollution and the like
20:09 segfault22 you're not a GCer, if you were then you would be too rich to be having anything to do with this game in the first place
20:09 segfault22 none of the people here are, most likely
20:10 Calinou agaran: "computer time is cheap, human time is not"
20:10 Calinou that's IT motto pretty much
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20:26 APNG computer time is cheap...
20:26 APNG chinese time is cheaper
20:26 APNG (note that I don't condone such behaviour)
20:27 APNG <rubenwardy> If the code is O(FMG) then maybe that doesn't apply
20:27 APNG don't you mean O(MFG)?
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20:44 sofar neat, I just ran minetest on a Minnowboard Max at 1080p
20:45 APNG a what?
20:45 sofar http://wiki.minnowboard.org/MinnowBoard_MAX
20:46 APNG oh cool
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20:53 agaran sofar: ethernet is native or usb-ethernet?
20:53 sofar native ethernet
20:53 sofar 2 usb ports, sata port, micro hdmi (all native)
20:57 agaran nice
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21:20 Ronsor https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=10&amp;t=15403&amp;p=231067#p231067
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22:01 rubenwardy yeah, APNG, O(MFG)
22:03 Ronsor APNG?
22:03 APNG rubenwardy, yes, O(MFG) code is bad
22:04 APNG at least it's not O(unbounded)
22:05 APNG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort
22:05 APNG "Worst case performance Unbounded (randomized version)"
22:06 rubenwardy true
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22:22 HoloIRCUser2 Hello
22:23 rubenwardy joined #minetest
22:25 sofar hi
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23:26 kaeza joined #minetest
23:26 kaeza Greetings.
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