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IRC log for #minetest, 2016-08-19

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:12 octacian Wow.. there's quite a discussion going on over the WTFPL.
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00:46 kaen hmm, that was meant to be more informative than persuasive
00:49 octacian kaen: yeah. I think that people should quit using it as well. It's not actually a legit license afaik too.
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00:52 segfault22 Is there such thing as a program that can load and edit configuration files easier than just a text editor? nobody wants to cut and replace a bunch of "true" and "false" to whatever is the other option when a whole bunch need to be changed; its easier and faster to just click a bunch of check-boxes
00:53 octacian segfault22: you could make a MT mod that would add a tab allowing such manipulation.
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00:55 segfault22 I intend to use this for changing configuration for any software, including a very large mod where the sheer number of configuration options would cause the game menu to lag if they had to be loaded every time it starts.
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00:55 octacian No, it would only have to be loaded if the tab was selected and the mod clicked.
00:56 segfault22 I don't want to use the game menu, and I want the same method of configuration file editing to be used with other unrelated software as well.
00:56 octacian AFAIK, no such thing exists. Make one.
01:00 segfault22 Surely one does exist,... the internet is too old for something like that to simply not ever be made, as there are too many people who would benefit from that and many of them are capable of making such a program in just a few minutes. I would have to learn all of the C++ stuff before I can even start, so it is not yet an option to start working on that
01:01 segfault22 I don't know where to start
01:01 octacian All you need is Lua..
01:01 octacian Sorry, what I meant is I don't think that such as thing exists for Lua.
01:02 segfault22 Lua is not good for making GUI programs, especially when they would be this complex. And people would have to install the Lua runtimes on their system to execute lua code, which complicates it. Most people have C/C++ on their system by default, so using it as the language would be easiest.
01:03 octacian I guess. There's Wireshark though, it's written in Lua and runs fairly well. I didn't even have Lua installed when I originally used it :P
01:03 octacian It seemed to work fine so there was obviously some lua interpreter built into Ubuntu
01:04 octacian but.. you get my point. And yeah, I get yours. It still isn't the most practical language.
01:05 segfault22 It might work, but there could be limitations which I don't see yet but would become apparent about halfway through development
01:05 segfault22 lua is good for what we use it for now
01:07 octacian Yes, it is
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01:13 segfault22 Are you sure there isn't any program that can load and edit config files without being part of some other program? If there is no such thing, I will simply direct users to open up the config.lua script and modify the variables directly, until such a program exists (the program edits the config file -> config file gets opened and processed by config.lua -> config.lua sets variables and lets the mod proceed loading the next parts)
01:15 octacian That's what normally happens. The user edits config.lua or config.txt which is read by the lua mod. If there is no such thing for lua, I do not know of it, sorry.
01:15 segfault22 I have this unusual catch22 situation, where the log-level for the mod's custom log file can be configured from 0 to 5 (each level of diminishing verbosity), which has to be loaded before any log messages can be entered; but the config.lua does processes that may mess-up if something is wrong, requiring it to send log messages either way, before the log-level can be configured...
01:17 octacian That's why you have defaults. if not <setting_name> then <setting_name> = <default> end
01:17 octacian What are you working on to get that, though?
01:18 segfault22 config.lua has to run before log.lua to set the log level, but log.lua has to run before config.lua to initiate the log system itself.
01:18 octacian wow.. what are you working on?
01:19 octacian config.lua should NOT call any other functions. It should be completely independent and possibly even capable of running without MT itself.
01:20 segfault22 It's a mod that takes a list of stuff, such as material definitions, and registers ore nodes, lump/ingot items, tool parts, tools, etc. for every material, instead of doing a bunch of minetest.register_*() blocks for every possible entry
01:20 octacian Nice. An internal API. What's it called? Is it on Github?
01:21 segfault22 it only has a few instances of minetest.register_*() calls, but they are called many times by embeding them into a function.
01:22 segfault22 For now I just call it "res" as in resources; it is on github but it is very outdated as I am rewriting the whole mod from scratch.
01:22 octacian What's the mod called? Are you developing it on GitHub? Then I could take a look and give you an idea as to what to do.
01:22 segfault22 The new system is almost nothing like the old one. sorry.
01:23 octacian Can you give me the old one? That way I can at least get an idea as to what it is. Or you could send me a ZIP with the latest version.
01:23 segfault22 In the past versions, it was difficult or impossible for other mods to use the functionality of the API - it was wholly internal and closed at the end. The new version aims to make it open to all mods for use.
01:24 octacian hmmm OK.
01:24 octacian Well, if you can give me the new version somehow, I'll take a look and give you an idea as to how you can deal with that.
01:25 segfault22 Sorry, I can't release the code right now because it's almost entirely incomplete... I "made a new folder" and started from noting and I have only gotten a few tasks done so far. I will be able to give you a .zip with the code later, though, once there is more of it to look at...
01:26 endev15 I don't mind if the code is complete or not. I can still take a look. It wouldn't necissarily be "releasing" it..
01:27 endev15 If your not comfortable with doing that though, I don't mind either.
01:28 segfault22 It's not that I think you would go put it on the forum and claim it as yours, but it just don't feel right to give you something that is so incomplete that the structure is difficult to determine.
01:33 endev15 Yeah, I understand. If you do need help with something like that though, I could give you a few suggestions anyway. I've rewritten a old abandoned mod that was like that, and am planning it on a second.
01:33 endev15 out of curiosity, have you ever thought about a computer mod?
01:33 segfault22 Okay it will inherit a lot of functionality from the files currently existing in the github repository, so you can take a look at it for a good idea of how it works: https://github.com/SegFault22/res
01:34 segfault22 computer mod?
01:34 endev15 ok.
01:34 segfault22 like a computer that can run code, in minetest?
01:34 endev15 Yes. A fully functional computer with a Lua OS and Lua apps.
01:34 segfault22 that would be nice, but I have only considered it sparingly because I think it would be very difficult to accomplish
01:35 endev15 I'm in the midst of one right now xD
01:35 segfault22 it would be possible, and plausible, but I probably won't be able to do it until much later.
01:35 segfault22 Cool
01:36 segfault22 Just make sure its fully sandboxed so the user can't do os.execute(rm -rf) or something like that to the server itself, lol
01:36 endev15 It started off as a rewrite of digiterm, then it basically took a completely different approach, and uses NOTHING from the old mod anymore lol.
01:37 endev15 https://git.endev.xyz/octacian/digicompute
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01:38 endev15 It's nearing first release. Then OSs and Apps can be created, and more can be added on to the actual mod. Thankfully, by that time other people will be able to contribute since the "core" would be complete..
01:39 endev15 The actual Lua concept is actually pretty simple.
01:40 segfault22 It's really cool. I'm glad that someone is working on something such as this. The applications for it are endless; imagine using a computer to control the flow of power through a factory by sending signals to relay-boxes that open/close switches, or interfacing directly with pachines (such as CNC) to make it produce specific items or a certain quantity of items. You could have crafting on-demand
01:40 segfault22 machines*
01:40 endev15 one suggestion: put the logger in the main init.lua file.
01:41 endev15 Not only that, v2 will possibly have functional drones.
01:41 segfault22 Cool
01:42 segfault22 I will make the logger assume log_level = 0 when res.log_level = nil, and reset it when config.lua finished loading
01:43 endev15 That would work. But config.lua SHOULD be entirely independent. Not required, but the best way to do it.
01:44 endev15 Why do u have config.lua call the logger?
01:44 endev15 fyi, here's what a typical logger in my mods look like (as part of init.lua):
01:44 endev15 -- logger
01:44 endev15 function servertools.log(content, log_type)
01:44 endev15 if log_type == nil then log_type = "action" end
01:44 endev15 minetest.log(log_type, "[ServerTools] "..content)
01:44 endev15 end
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02:01 segfault22 I have something similar. However, log_type is instead a number, log_level, and the function is res.log and it outputs to a separate file. Maybe I should make it just output to the main log, but the idea is that there will be so many entries like "added material with id: <id>" and "added item with id:<id> and material:<material>"
02:02 segfault22 I could make it output the important stuff like fatal errors or misuse of the API to the main minetest log, and anything with too much verbosity goes to the res log just so it's somewhere for if it happens to be needed
02:02 endev15 Why do added material and item? It's pointless. That would run every time minetest is loaded.
02:02 endev15 (that's what I see anyway)
02:03 segfault22 it is probably pointless to log successful entries of materials and items; it would be better to just log failures or misuse of the API
02:04 endev15 Yes. But, if the API is misused the game would most likely crash, removing the need for that. Deprecated fields is another thing, but you can just put that to the main log.
02:06 segfault22 I would rather catch the misuse of the API and make it skip trying to make the entry if something is invalid; that way all the other stuff can still work. But I see that if someone messes up an entry that already exists, it would proceed to fail registering a whole bunch of items, causing them to become unknowns
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02:06 segfault22 so either way there's a tradeoff
02:07 agrecascino how do i add lua functions to minetest
02:07 endev15 Trying to catch misuse of the API would definitely take quite a bit of work. Guess it wouldn't be too bad, but it would take some work.
02:07 endev15 agrecascino: are you trying to make a mod?
02:07 agrecascino endev15, no
02:07 agrecascino i modified the nametag class, to add a feature
02:08 endev15 IDK..
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02:08 agrecascino and want to flip a bool in that class, in lua
02:08 endev15 wait, so you modified another mod, or the core?
02:09 endev15 if a mod, what is it?
02:10 agrecascino the core
02:10 endev15 idk then. It's more likely that the people over on #minetest-dev will know. I'm still learning the basics of C++ myself..
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02:23 segfault22 I told everyone I was gonna make a fork, wherein all nodes are replaced with one "placeholder" node type, which is filled with material in "volumes" of any shape (smooth terrain, finite fluid, real air, weather dynamics, etc.),... and when I set-up eclipse-cpp to work with Minetest, and started looking at the code, I immediately realized that it would likely require a complete overhaul of just about everything except the sky-box and the sun/moon sy
02:23 segfault22 stem...
02:24 segfault22 "lol"
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02:43 segfault22 I am designing the mod's API such that other mods can use it after the mod itself is done loading,... files being used for i/o (such as the log) and other stuff are kept loaded until the game is done loading and initiates, where a call to minetest.after() is used to close all of the stuff 1 second orso after the game starts. I chose 1 second because someone said 0 won't work right, and there is no smaller number-value that works with minetest.after
02:43 segfault22 ()
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03:09 council hi there channel, i'm a player that hasn't played in a long time, things are looking fancy
03:11 Darkside__ welcome back to minetest then :)
03:12 council thanks a lot! :0) wanting to try these fancy new "subgames"
03:14 council I used to be friends with this persona named "sdzen", are they still around?
03:15 council don't seem like it, oh well
03:19 segfault22 welcome back :D
03:28 council skytest is really neat
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04:00 kaen week 1: http://imgur.com/a/79rKy
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04:36 segfault22 why
04:36 Chinchou Reasons.
04:37 segfault22 why Reasons
04:37 Chinchou We're going recursive now.
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04:38 segfault22 xD
04:43 segfault22 who wants Minetest to have smoothed nodes consisting of any number of volumes of material: like finite fluids, smooth terrain/caves, dynamic tree growth, real air, weather dynamics, ground water dynamics, varying concentration of ore in deposits/lodes, and so on
04:45 Chinchou Honestly, that sounds like the realm of an entirely different type of game.
04:45 Chinchou Some of it, anyway.
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04:46 segfault22 It would be a lot different, but it would still use the node system to keep up with stuff, like how blocks/chunks are filled with nodes, except different. A lot of the dynamics would be the same, most notably the ability to modify the environment at your will with tools that work for certain materials
04:48 segfault22 however instead of breaking a node into an item 1 or 0 style, using a tool on it starts displacing material immediately (in increments though, so you still have a micro-smidgen of time to stop breaking if you started by accidentally pressing the button
04:49 Hijiri sounds like it would be hard to make performant
04:49 Chinchou That part seems to be breaking away from the "blockminer" paradigm.
04:49 Chinchou ^
04:49 Chinchou Especially weather.
04:49 Hijiri it wouldn't work with the existing mod API either, I think it would be a different game like Chinchou
04:49 segfault22 That is why it would be a fork project
04:50 Hijiri I don't know if it would be more useful to fork than to start from scratch
04:50 Hijiri what is there that you can reuse?
04:50 segfault22 most of the stuff would have to be redone entirely, except for the entity system and the skybox and the sun/moon and some of the server transmission/reception system
04:51 segfault22 and the menu
04:51 Chinchou Weather alone is a pain to get running decently, in just about anything.  I know that some games have "hint" brushes - like in the Q3A engine - but in a miner, it would need to be dynamic, and that would make things difficult.
04:51 Hijiri I don't think the netcode is considered a particular high point of minetest
04:51 Hijiri nothing else you listed is core, except maybe entities
04:51 Hijiri (which currently are all cubes)
04:52 Hijiri how difficult weather is would depend on the detail
04:53 Chinchou You could recalculate "inside" areas when something is modified inside them, but if you're mining a large stretch or building something, that's a lot of calculations.
04:54 Hijiri for simple rain you could just check if it's blocked overhead
04:54 segfault22 it may be best to wait until we (all) have access to superconducting processor systems, what could handle the huge load
04:54 Chinchou That's a lot of checks...
04:54 Hijiri you don't have to make the checks after each change
04:55 Chinchou Yes, that's the "hint" system of "indoors" and "outdoors".
04:55 Chinchou ... Am I misunderstanding you?
04:55 Hijiri If you don't check all the time then it might not be that expensive
04:56 segfault22 I figure that instead of treating "volumes" as a whole bunch of individual chunks of material, we just make its area a function, and use statistics to determine how much rain falls through the node if there isn't enough volume to block it entirely
04:56 Hijiri like monte carlo sampling?
04:57 segfault22 something like that
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04:59 segfault22 I figure that the weather system will have to wait until the conversion from whole nodes to volume-containing nodes is "finished"
05:00 Hijiri I think it would be better to start from scratch since everything is currently based around a voxel world
05:01 segfault22 my idea is that it will still be a voxel world, but the player doesn't see the nodes the same way the engine does
05:01 Hijiri what about entities?
05:02 segfault22 currently, since there's no real collision dynamics between entities, we'll just assume they are outside the material-based paradigm and are just that: "entities"; that way we don't have to change them much, except maybe how they collide with the ground so they don't get stuck or appear to float above the ground
05:05 Hijiri ok, it sounds like it could work
05:06 segfault22 they could drop material when they die, so that for example you could loot the (volume-based) carcass of an animal you killed, to obtain meat and material to make containers, weapons and shelter (yuck^3); but when alive, they would be just like they are now... players won't do that when they die, because it would be way too disgusting and have too much potential for abuse of the mind of players...
05:07 kaen > yuck^3
05:07 kaen I see what you did there
05:08 segfault22 I am going to have to be very careful to strike a balance between the disgusting details of (pseudo-)reality that get brought in when using a volumetric material-based system, and keeping it "family-friendly" enough to not corrupt the minds of young children who will bypass the "warning" and doenload the forked version and play it anyways, knowing it has "this kind of stuff" as a feature
05:08 * Chinchou facepalms
05:09 Hijiri by that logic, nothing unsuitable for children should ever be made, because children could bypass the warning
05:09 Chinchou ^
05:09 Chinchou In addition, "unsuitable" is entirely subjective and differs by culture.
05:09 segfault22 right,...
05:09 Chinchou That's a whole other can of worms there.
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05:10 Hijiri we don't have to open it though
05:10 Chinchou Indeed, but looking at the label is important.
05:11 Chinchou Some would perceive that as you trying to decide "what's best" for /their/ offspring.  Deeply offensive.
05:12 segfault22 Okay, then it's probably fine to go ahead and put a lot of this "stuff" into the forked version, as long as it is made clear somewhere what is to be expected
05:12 Chinchou A simple warning of "May contain <whatever>" is sufficient.
05:13 Chinchou Some have a rather weak stomach, too...  Again, all you need is a simple warning label.
05:14 Chinchou Some will complain that you "made it too accessible", but those people would complain no matter what you did.
05:14 Hijiri you could make it togglabe
05:14 Hijiri togglable
05:15 Chinchou Hm...  Ah, like Darkness, I suppose?
05:15 Chinchou That could work.
05:17 Chinchou (Also, some will gripe about the exclusion of player "corpses" from that system.  A simple solution may be to make a toggle, set by the player themselves, that allows/disallows "harvesting" of their own remains.)
05:17 segfault22 I will add configuration for just about everything that depends on a number system, from the resolution of boundaries between volumes within nodes, to the amount of blood that comes out of animals when they are struck with weapons
05:19 segfault22 I specifically don't want to make players leave a dead body, because it would conflict with the respawn system (if you're dead, how do you get a new physical body without bringing more material into the game than already exists) - but there could be a fork-fork (by others, not me) where that is implemented, along with a "system" that changes the way new players come into the game, among other things...
05:20 segfault22 They would leave their items behind when they die, or not, as configured at the server
05:20 Chinchou Ah, aye, harvesting of own remains could be a sort of "exploit"...
05:21 Hijiri already a common tactic on ethereal servers
05:22 Chinchou You could simply disable "self-harvesting" and not worry about "extra materials" beyond that.
05:22 segfault22 not unless the player has to wait for material from the world to be formed into a new body, and then "possess" said body, including in part a process which is one of those things I was worrying about trying to include because it's not "family-friendly" so-to-speak in several places
05:22 segfault22 Also you could get another player to harvest your body and bypass the self-harvesting restriction (take turns killing each other and looting
05:22 Chinchou Of course, one could then- yeah.
05:23 Chinchou Really, though, there's a limit to how feasible a solution will be.
05:24 segfault22 it wouldn't even have to be a different player, just two accounts. So either players have to wait for a new body to become available via... well you know... or the player body is considered to be an immaterial "spirit" capable of interacting with matter (and being damaged) but not leaving anything behind when it dies
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05:24 Chinchou If material limits are of extreme importance to your concept, then yes, disabling "player harvest" is good.  Otherwise, it seems like a an attempt to justify avoiding something solely on the basis that it "might squick someone out".
05:24 segfault22 It will be configurable
05:25 Chinchou Respawn timers are a thing.  You don't need to involve mundane reproductive methods or whatever you're trying to say.
05:25 Chinchou It could be spun as "it takes effort and time to manifest a new body for yourself".
05:26 Chinchou There's a race I saw someone draw up for D&D that reproduces via a ritual that pulls matter from the atmosphere to form new bodies(manifestation).
05:27 segfault22 yeah, like that
05:27 Chinchou So many possibilities... and all of them involve rice.  Excuse me while I eat my dinner.
05:27 segfault22 thank you for the feedback, it is very helpful in developing this
05:32 segfault22 by default, players' dead bodies would be slowly converted back into ether energy, which flows over to the spawn area and manifests into a new player (body slowly disappears, when its done then let the player re-spawn). Configuration will allow raising the difficulty to require a ritual be done to manifest a new body from existing material (or energy, if available), and simply deleting the body instantly and allowing the player to respawn as soon a
05:32 segfault22 s they are able to click the button., possibly with numeric increments between both for more/less difficulty level.
05:34 Chinchou Ah, demanifesting the old body for material for the new one.  Well-played.
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06:10 segfault22 Maybe I should finish my resources-mod first, then work on extending the world system (one world, multiple "dimensions"), then make that fork. Working on something like a "dimensions" implementation would be much easier than rewriting the entire node system, and give me some code experience to ease the learning curve when going into the bigger project
06:11 segfault22 the mod I'm working on has been in development for such a long time, it seems senseless to keep postponing development for anything else, especially considering how it will change the way people "out there" perceive what is Minetest
06:13 segfault22 Right now people think "oh it's just another Minecraft ripoff", because we copied too many Minecraft features and didn't implement enough unique stuff. The resources mod, combined with a simple reworking of the furnace system (fuel -> heat -> cooking, instead of fuel = cooking), will reverse that perception quite easily
06:14 segfault22 also fire -> ignition -> fuel burning -> heat released -> cooking + ashes
06:18 Chinchou It is probably best for the engine to remain "basic" - I don't know enough about the modding system to say, but I'd bet that your idea of expanding cooking could be done with a mod.
06:18 Chinchou I personally love highly-modular things like this.
06:18 Chinchou ... Also, to me, MT is what MC wishes it could be.
06:19 segfault22 It can be done; there is a mod somewhere by a contributor named Gollum, which basically implements the crafting system in Lua so that you can add new methods and machines/devices to use them
06:19 segfault22 MT can become that which MC will never be able to do without running out of system resources and crashing
06:20 Chinchou Exactly, kekeke
06:20 Chinchou MC is far too resource-intensive.  I can run my MT server on my cornflake box.
06:20 Chinchou I doubt MC would stand any chance of that.
06:20 segfault22 If Microsoft asked the Minecraft devs, "make the world height limit the same as the length/width limit", they would be all like "nah man, I give-up/quit"
06:21 Chinchou Keke
06:23 segfault22 If they hired someone just for the purpose of coding it to allow such height, Minecraft itself would give-up/quit and say "nah man, I'm done"
06:23 Chinchou Pffft
06:24 Chinchou It seems to me that anything M$ touches ends up being so resource-intensive that it may as well be classified as "won't run on any platform for at least another five years".
06:25 Chinchou That's not even getting into the /other/ issues... let's not get into the other issues.
06:25 Chinchou I like my sanity where it is.
06:26 segfault22 xD
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06:29 segfault22 Do you know if anyone is currently trying to implement a "dimensions" system in minetest, wherein different realms exist in the same world but they are not within the same field of nodes like the existing "stacked realms" paradigm?
06:30 segfault22 Kinda like minecraft where the "nether" "occupies the same space" as the "overworld", except we won't have any height limit or node distance discontinuity
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06:37 segfault22 is it even possible to implement separate realms/dimensions within the same world but a different "map" (for lack of better word for field-of-nodes)
06:39 segfault22 Yay, I can export my mod files directly from the Eclipse LDT interface to the Minetest mods folder for quick testing :D
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06:43 Hawk777 segfault22: wouldn’t it be easiest to do that by teleporting between different worlds (i.e. completely different maps) but moving the player to the same coordinates in the new map?
06:44 Chinchou Not if you want synchronisation.
06:44 Hawk777 What sort of synchronization? You mean things that work between worlds?
06:44 Chinchou I mean having nodes in the same place.
06:44 Hawk777 Er. I guess I have no idea what that means.
06:44 Hawk777 Not to worry.
06:45 Chinchou Say you flip 180 degrees out of phase with the "normal" world - keep the terrain identical but entities are not.
06:45 segfault22 That would be cool, but it wasn't what I was "getting at",... sorry, I messed up somewhere
06:45 Chinchou (Of course, realistically, the terrain would also be different due to still being made of matter)
06:46 Chinchou Oh, so the terrain does not need to be identical?
06:46 segfault22 basically, out-of-phase yes (did you get that from stargate?) but the matter would be different
06:46 Hawk777 Oh, hm. I was thinking along the lines of Minecraft’s nether. Where really the maps have nothing to do with each other, except that coordinates are associated.
06:47 segfault22 It doesn't have to be identical, it can be whatever the server has set it to be (anywhere from direct replica of the world to super-nether/lavaland)
06:47 Chinchou (Phase is used in a lot of different settings.  This would be more like a different plane than a different phase, though.)
06:47 segfault22 oh
06:48 segfault22 so it's not just stargate that calls it "phase"; they got it from somewhere else,... okay
06:48 Chinchou Ah, so similar terrain(potentially), but with a modification based on the specific plane...?
06:48 segfault22 < insert ragecomix "okay" dude here >
06:48 segfault22 uh, yeah kinda like that
06:49 segfault22 the terrain can be anything it is configured to be; each realm is given a number (regular world is 0) and each one can have whatever as its "content"
06:49 segfault22 ideally
06:50 segfault22 yay, celeron55 is /back :D
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06:56 segfault22 "plane" is a better word for it since "realm" is already taken to mean "stacked realms" (within same map)
07:00 segfault22 aww man its already 3:00 AM
07:09 Chinchou 0705 for me.
07:10 Chinchou Morning sucks.  Would you mind terribly much if I extinguished the sun?
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07:14 segfault22 Nikola Tesla wanted to create a ring of light around the earth that can illuminate the whole world 24/7,... but maybe it would be a better idea to make the whole Earth a space-ship and convert the moon into a giant ball of energy providing light like the sun, so we can still have night and people can have it turned off if they need it
07:18 segfault22 I think we should all use a different unified time-system like star-date, so it's really the same time everywhere, and it makes more sense when you calculate the time of sunrise/sunset relative to earth's rotation
07:19 Chinchou UTC.
07:19 Chinchou The Gregorian calendar needs to take an exit already.
07:20 segfault22 but there's that problem where the rotation of the earth slows down and we end up having to add seconds every few months, then every few days, then every day, until it becomes so noticeable that people say "hey, this time system is too much of a burden to have to deal with and keep patching all the time; we need a new system!!!one"
07:22 Chinchou Ehn.
07:22 Chinchou I don't really see UTC being that kind of problem.
07:23 Chinchou In the event that such a thing arises, a new system would arise out of necessity.
07:24 Chinchou For now, UTC is the best we have, I think.
07:24 segfault22 okay
07:27 Chinchou I do agree that we really should be using a unified time system - and UTC already exists, so why not use it?  (My reasoning)
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07:38 segfault22 that would be reasonable, I guess
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08:03 segfault22 I think I should use minetest.after() to set nil all of the functions I made like res.add_material, res.add_item, res.add_toolpart, and so on, once the game is fully initiated, so people can't try to call those functions after it becomes impossible to minetest.register_*() new stuff (it could crash the game, for example, to try to register an item or node when the server is fully initialized and the game is started)
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08:06 IhrFussel Something is VERY wrong with my server...10 secs lag right after restart is definitely not right...I always had 0.5 secs lag before
08:07 IhrFussel And the max_lag value raises more and more...now after 5 minutes it's at 19 secs
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08:33 segfault22 that's not good
08:35 segfault22 I have to go now. Goodbye everyone. I will be back later, hopefully. Thank-you for the feedback
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08:49 Nosrick Hey, rubenwardy
08:49 rubenwardy hi Nosrick
08:49 Nosrick How're you doing?
08:50 rubenwardy I'm good, thanks
08:50 rubenwardy et toi?
08:51 Nosrick Tired.
08:51 Nosrick Your book is super helpful, btw.
08:51 Nosrick Very good reference material!
08:51 rubenwardy thanks :D
08:51 rubenwardy That's the aim
08:52 Nosrick I'm wondering if you'd know why my player inventory (a custom one) isn't saving.
08:53 rubenwardy how are you adding it?
08:53 rubenwardy and by saving, do you mean that it's no longer there after restart?
08:54 Nosrick Yeah.
08:54 Nosrick I'm adding it via set_stack("mirror", 10, ItemStack({definition}))
08:57 Nosrick Quick question: what default size are the non-main inventories?
08:58 rubenwardy don't know
08:59 rubenwardy maybe try:   inv:set_list("mirror", {})       inv:set_size(LIST_SIZE_YOU_WANT)        to create the list
08:59 rubenwardy I can't see an add_list method
09:03 Nosrick Yeah, I'll give that a shot.
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09:14 JamesTait Good morning all!  Happy Friday, and happy World Humanitarian Day! 😃
09:18 Nosrick rubenwardy, that didn't make a difference. :S
09:18 rubenwardy :(
09:18 Nosrick Maybe I'll just use file saving/loading.
09:21 agaran Hello
09:22 rubenwardy tracking the code down
09:22 rubenwardy the inventory is saved to the player file using inventory.serialize(os); just finding def now...
09:23 rubenwardy all lists in the inventory list are serialised, therefore your list must not be there
09:23 Nosrick Hey agaran!
09:24 Nosrick Which is strange, because when I retrieve the data before shutdown, it works.
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09:25 rubenwardy inv:set_size(size) should be enough to create a list
09:26 rubenwardy it is added if it does not exist: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/maste​r/src/script/lua_api/l_inventory.cpp#L138-L148
09:26 rubenwardy providing size!=0
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09:27 rubenwardy are you sure you don't clear the list on login, say by running set_list("mirror", {})  if it already exists?
09:27 Nosrick Pretty sure.
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09:28 w_laenger hi
09:29 Nosrick Hello!
09:30 w_laenger The bags mod uses the inventories, doesn't it? https://github.com/minetest-technic/u​nified_inventory/blob/master/bags.lua
09:31 * w_laenger read the log
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09:35 w_laenger rubenwardy put their attention to github now
09:36 w_laenger Can anyone tell me why that crash happens? https://github.com/Splizard/​minetest-mod-snow/issues/20
09:37 rubenwardy huh
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09:39 Nosrick Oh hey, sorry, I was reading the bags stuff.
09:47 IhrFussel joined #minetest
09:48 IhrFussel Right now 3 players online and 0.5 secs lag...so if it increases as more players connect then it likely is caused by a mod
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10:08 agaran IhrFussel: I can connect if you need tester
10:09 IhrFussel agaran, sure "IhrFussel's Server" in the list ... the lag doesn't go higher right now even if I do while true; do uptime; done on my Ubuntu machine for a few minutes
10:10 agaran IhrFussel: I always skipped it because my german ends on 'Guten tag' or something..
10:12 IhrFussel Oh the server is only part German..most players speak English and all commands have English syntax/description
10:12 agaran IhrFussel: very nice ping for me there.. 40ms
10:12 IhrFussel agaran, the ping is low and max_lag too ( < 1 sec ) but a few hours ago it was at 19.5
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10:13 IhrFussel And I don't see how
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10:13 agaran hmm, I would check system side for minetest process, like stalled io, cpu usage.. maybe memory usage that caused swapping etc.. at least those are blind guesses from system side to check
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10:14 IhrFussel Yeah I'll do...CPU usage is mostly at 20-30%, memory is always ~ 50% free
10:14 agaran hmm, then iotop ? or sar
10:15 agaran one shows io operations like top processes, and sar is for accounting more
10:15 IhrFussel load average: 0,07, 0,16, 0,15 ... how do I see io operations?
10:16 agaran 'iotop' tool helps with that, or sar, what linux it is?
10:16 IhrFussel Ubuntu 14.04
10:16 agaran so you should have it in packages already
10:16 agaran nice texture set in there,
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10:18 IhrFussel Lag went up!
10:18 agaran I found some mouses and tried to fight them
10:19 IhrFussel That should totally not increase the overall lag
10:19 agaran dunno, even digging gravel now has some2-3 s delay before it appears in inventory
10:20 IhrFussel Well I'm installing iotop right now and it kinda takes a long time o.o
10:21 IhrFussel But load says 0,30..so weird
10:21 agaran it may be that delay reason stays within minetest and it is not io..
10:22 IhrFussel Total DISK WRITE is between 0 and 500 K/s
10:22 agaran so not much at all
10:22 agaran and if you have enough memory (you said there is free all time) then they are cached anyway
10:23 IhrFussel free 1490 MB , cached 2481
10:24 agaran thats plenty available for that.. hmm maybe something with monsters causes that.. I'l try to make some items and find monsters
10:25 IhrFussel The weird thing is it worked flawlessly for months...and then suddenly the lagging started, no new version, didn't change mobs mod, only added a few smaller mods like charcoal and skins
10:26 agaran maybe it changed something that pulled other change, I dunno, maybe some weirder stuff like order of modules loadding if that can change during such operation?
10:26 IhrFussel The lagging gets worse when more players connect...I see that in the chat log cause then suddenly 3-5 messages appear at the same sec
10:27 agaran I was fighting for a moment with angry dirt mobs
10:28 IhrFussel What is the best way to disable all mods for a test run?
10:28 IhrFussel rename worldmods folder I guess?
10:29 agaran yep perhaps easiest but then most of inventory items and in=world become unknown
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10:29 IhrFussel Yeah well it's only to find out if it still happens without mods
10:30 agaran hmm without I am quite sure it wont.. on Megaf server it was similar, and Megaf disabled mobs
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10:31 IhrFussel Another idea would be deleting player files but the problem is my server somehow got "popular" in its first weeks and now I have 11,000 players starting from May
10:32 agaran I'd rather try find way ifyou can change order of mods.. if mobs were last, make them so
10:33 IhrFussel The lag goes down again...slowly
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10:33 agaran hmm as mob gets killed by their timeouts?
10:33 agaran and in day there is less of mobs, right?
10:34 IhrFussel I can make it night
10:34 agaran I am just guessing.. hey I have no torches ;)
10:40 IhrFussel Lag still goes down
10:40 IhrFussel I gave you fly and fast btw
10:40 agaran hmm and I was still fighting with some mobs.. maybe when they do something silly like fall into water.. then get respawned?
10:41 IhrFussel Nope some sand monsters just died underwater and no lag increase
10:42 agaran hmm, underground walking causing map generation?
10:42 agaran like dunno.. expensive kinds of noise used for that?
10:42 IhrFussel Now i just experienced a long lag
10:42 agaran ii was fighting cow
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10:44 IhrFussel I could try to only disable the mobs mod first
10:45 agaran sounds good, I have telco meting in a few so I need to focus on that.. but I hate when people just chop bottom of tree and leave rest..
10:47 IhrFussel agaran, oh that's alright you already helped me a lot =) if you want you can join later again and continue investigating :D
10:47 agaran heh.. I work as QA... ;)
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10:49 IhrFussel Perfect lol
10:49 agaran I'd say that abm's are laggy
10:51 IhrFussel But only suddenly after ~ 3 months?
10:51 agaran yep thats odd part
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12:13 Nosrick_ So I just tried the bags way of doing an inventory
12:13 Nosrick_ That didn't help.
12:15 Nosrick_ rubenwardy, you still around?
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13:05 Fixer https://twitter.com/ykhvatov​1/status/766526556525080577 unbelievable
13:05 Fixer not sure if troll or real
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13:11 rubenwardy Fixer, CGI burkas?
13:12 Fixer rubenwardy: cgi?
13:12 rubenwardy computer generated images
13:13 Fixer yes
13:15 srifqi That censors... How could they do it?
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13:35 onlyonemac hi i'm new to minetest whenever i try to run i get a message "note: no fly privilege"
13:36 onlyonemac *** sorry
13:36 onlyonemac hi i'm new to minetest whenever i try to run i get a message "note: no fast privilege"
13:36 onlyonemac how do i run?
13:36 SanskritFritz onlyonemac: minetest has access levels, server admins can restrict users from flying or fast walking
13:36 onlyonemac this is singleplayer
13:37 onlyonemac how do i give myself that privilege?
13:37 SanskritFritz then turn on those privileges, the wiki tells you how (sorry cannot remember)
13:37 Chinchou You should have every priv in singleplayer by default, as I understand it.
13:37 Chinchou as I recall*
13:37 Chinchou If not, use "/grant fast".
13:37 SanskritFritz Chinchou: afaik no, you must turn on flying for example
13:37 SanskritFritz that's it yes
13:37 Chinchou You can replace fast with fly, noclip, and so on.
13:38 onlyonemac i have to give a player name, what is my player name?
13:38 Chinchou I haven't touched SP in a while.  Last time I did, I'm pretty sure that fast and fly were granted by default...
13:38 SanskritFritz or enter the maze in creative mode :)
13:38 Chinchou "singleplayer"
13:39 onlyonemac thanks, it's working now!
13:39 SanskritFritz !next
13:39 MinetestBot Another satisfied customer. Next!
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13:44 Megaf agaran: Darkside_: can you join the server now?
13:48 Megaf !server Megaf
13:48 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 4/24, 0/4 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 7ms
13:52 swift110 joined #minetest
13:54 Samson1 Is it possible for Minetest to have Metadata?
13:55 Samson1 In texturepacks?
13:58 Megaf well, everybody invited to join the server
13:59 DMackey joined #minetest
14:07 rubenwardy Samson1, description.txt
14:07 rubenwardy and screenshot.png
14:07 rubenwardy are support
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14:10 Samson1 rubenwardy, Thank you :)
14:11 Megaf !server Megaf
14:11 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 4/24, 0/4 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 10ms
14:11 Megaf this takes a long time to update
14:11 Samson1 rubenwardy, Where can I find these?
14:11 rubenwardy ...?
14:12 Megaf !server Megaf
14:12 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 4/24, 0/4 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 10ms
14:12 rubenwardy The maker of the texture pack creates them
14:13 Samson1 Okay
14:14 Darkside_ What is up the world? and were back! Bees or peas peeps!  :)
14:14 Samson1 :)
14:16 Megaf Darkside_: people online :)
14:16 Megaf !server Megaf
14:16 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 5/24, 0/5 | Version: 0.4.14-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 7ms
14:16 Megaf !server Calinou
14:16 MinetestBot Megaf: Calinou [Europe/Paris] (survival - minimal mods) | hugo.pro:30002 | Clients: 1/32, 2/11 | Version: 0.4.14-dev / minetest | Ping: 11ms
14:16 Megaf ha!
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16:32 nolsen !server [TUSS]
16:32 MinetestBot nolsen: [TUSS] The Ultimate Survival Server | minetest.nolsen.xyz | Clients: 0/20, 0/2 | Version: 0.4.14-dev / minetest | Ping: 150ms
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17:36 APNG https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/​34472e8e6ba3a9e900336235f805d5a6
17:37 APNG uh do we have a title bot?
17:37 APNG .t
17:37 APNG uh no ok .-.
17:37 APNG anyway APNG sucks, and so does everything else :)
17:39 APNG (APNG sucks less tho)
17:39 Krock !title
17:39 MinetestBot Krock: APNG Sucks! · GitHub
17:39 APNG thanks
17:39 Krock yes you really suck
17:39 Krock like a vacuum cleaner
17:42 sea` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQAvMUUJr4
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17:48 Krock I love that mobie
17:48 Krock *movie
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18:23 MinetestBot [git] Rogier-5 -> minetest/minetest: Fix for failure to find jsoncpp in android build (#4456) a496224 https://git.io/v61tA (2016-08-19T20:23:30+02:00)
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18:46 nosrick Anyone around that could possibly give me a hand?
18:47 * Krock crazily runs around with a running chainsaw and cuts off some arms
18:47 * Krock gives nosrick five of them
18:47 * nosrick appreciates it
18:48 * Krock notices that one of these five cut arms is nosrick's left one
18:48 nosrick BUT THAT'S MY GOOD ONE
18:48 Krock sorry.
18:49 nosrick S'alright. You can make it up to me by helping me with this weird problem.
18:50 Krock huh
18:51 nosrick So I'm trying to save some values. When I go load them, it works just fine. When I save them, they're all nil.
18:56 Krock you can load nil?
18:57 Krock perhaps you're trying to save local variables from init.lua in functions.lua or similar
18:57 nosrick Yeah, they're local.
18:57 nosrick Thing is, they're all values until I try to save them.
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19:00 Krock run  'print(dump(..variable here..))'  in the function where you save the stuff
19:00 nosrick Already have.
19:00 Krock all nil?
19:00 nosrick Yeah.
19:00 Krock and in the place where you call the function?
19:00 nosrick All values.
19:00 nosrick If I get what you mean.
19:01 Krock "non-nil", yes.
19:01 Krock gawd, just gimme a link to that stuff
19:01 Krock can't analyze that problem properly here
19:02 nosrick https://github.com/Nosrick/MoMTest​/blob/master/api/player/mirror.lua
19:02 nosrick It's in the mirror.load and mirror.save functions.
19:06 Krock I don't see a problem
19:07 Krock same result when you define the books as a global variable?
19:07 Krock btw,  print(books[key].lifeBooks)  ==   print(value.lifeBooks)
19:11 nosrick I'll try using a global, but I wanted to avoid that if possible.
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19:12 nosrick And doing that print == print is nonsense. :P
19:13 kaen save looks fine, I don't think it needs a global either. I think you're just actually setting it to nil in some client code :P
19:14 kaen using a local is way better because you guarantee that it won't be accessed except with the public interface
19:15 nosrick kaen, you might be right, but I'll look for it.
19:24 nosrick Btw, printing books[key].variousBooks == value.variousBooks is always true.
19:25 Krock > And doing that print == print is nonsense. :P
19:25 Krock just saying that it does the same
19:27 nosrick It threw an error at me
19:27 Krock catch and eliminate it
19:27 nosrick Well, doing the print == print thing threw an error.
19:27 nosrick It did not like it at all.
19:28 Krock <Krock>just saying that it does the same
19:28 Krock not to be actually used to compare print
19:29 nosrick OH
19:29 nosrick Sorry, I'm dumb.
19:29 Krock ok
19:34 nosrick I am indeed setting the values to nil. Stupidly.
19:36 nosrick Just take me out back and shoot me.
19:38 Calinou https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKlSp-wz7ck
19:38 Calinou "Irrlicht needs Vulkan! Vulkan 2016, 2020, 2024!"
19:38 Calinou :P
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20:01 agaran hmm does minetest have some checksums over datagrams?
20:03 Szkodnix joined #minetest
20:03 Calinou agaran: datagrams?
20:04 agaran it uses UDP for client/server, I wonder if corrupted packets can't cause that teleporting to edge of world
20:06 sfan5 udp has a checksum itself
20:06 agaran yup, I know, but it is crc16, not overly strong..
20:07 agaran and sometimes I get TPed to edge of world few times in hour.. but now I know that my network is a bit badly behaving (ISP is doing some rework on infrastructure) and datagram losts increased a bit
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20:38 nosrick I got that bloody bugger working.
20:53 sfan5 agaran: it's not crc16
20:55 sfan5 and tcp has a checksum too
20:55 sfan5 tl;dr no it's not that
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21:41 agaran sfan5: hmm my guess was because if I play over my home lan it never happens, if I play over inet, it does..
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23:28 Volkj hi, does sqlite server's map need to be vacuumed and reindexed once in a while or there's no need for that?
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