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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-08-14

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00:36 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Flowers: Add sporeless mushrooms and edit drops 408ee69 http://git.io/v3PlP (2015-08-14T01:34:35+01:00)
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01:11 DI3HARD139 Forgot I was connected here XD
01:11 DI3HARD139 #Realworldproblems
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03:22 wilkgr76 Does anyone have any idea where Phox has gone?
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09:15 CWz morning kaeza
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12:36 cornernote i love the random button - https://minetest-bower.herokuapp.com/random
12:37 cornernote i cant stop clicking it
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13:48 SylvieLorxu Is there a way to know which servers you can join without making an account?
13:48 VanessaE SylvieLorxu: look here:  http://servers.minetest.net/
13:48 VanessaE if the server doesn't have "Pwd" in its entry, that's the closest you can have to "no account"
13:49 SylvieLorxu I see
13:49 SylvieLorxu I wish this was displayed in the client somehow
13:49 VanessaE all servers require at least a username; some don't allow "Guestxxxx" though.
13:50 Jordach now that's a name i haven't seen in a long time
13:50 VanessaE SylvieLorxu: that said, not using a proper account + password is bad anyway
13:50 SylvieLorxu Well, sure, generally it's a bad idea
13:50 VanessaE and all truly good servers require it.
13:51 SylvieLorxu But I'm only serverhopping a bit
13:51 SylvieLorxu Trying to see what's interesting
13:51 SylvieLorxu I'm not looking to join a server for a long time
13:51 VanessaE use a temp username them
13:51 est31 its just some bytes
13:56 MinetestBot [git] est31 -> minetest/minetest: Don't do formspec escaping twice for loading description 25dfd1b http://git.io/v3Mza (2015-08-14T15:56:25+02:00)
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16:32 freelikegnu greetings
16:40 kaeza hi
16:40 sfan5 hi
16:42 Krock hi
16:44 CWz hi
16:46 CWz Fnaf seems to be invading minetest
16:46 sfan5 are you sure
16:47 CWz 99% sure
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18:17 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Default: New darker jungletree_top and junglewood textures b7a1426 http://git.io/v3ytc (2015-08-14T19:15:33+01:00)
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19:17 luizrpgluiz hi all
19:18 Krock hi luizrpgluiz
19:18 est31 luizrpgluiz, it is possible to have pvp areas, already now
19:18 luizrpgluiz realy?
19:19 est31 yes, you'll have to write custom lua however
19:19 est31 dunno if a mod exists yet
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19:21 est31 Krock, member of the biker lobby
19:21 luizrpgluiz researched the forum minetest and not found a mod that does this using in conjunction with the config minetest
19:33 freelikegnu CWz: yeah my 9yo son is obsessed and making his own fnaf games with LBP
19:34 luizrpgluiz est31: from what I know does not exist in this minetest still doing this for command
19:35 luizrpgluiz est31: because by default the pvp is enabled on the entire map and not in areas
19:36 est31 luizrpgluiz, yes, but you can write mods to only enable pvp in certain areas
19:36 CWz mew Super Mario U is just creepy. it's like metaphor for a corrupt government. everything has eyes spying on you
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19:37 freelikegnu getting kids used to the idea from the start
19:38 freelikegnu I read a short sci fi stroy about a society that just lived knowing that there were cameras everyhwere
19:39 luizrpgluiz est31: Yes, I know that, but if the pvp code were done only in .lua instead of being scattered in C and other parties .lua that is spread across multiple files in minetest
19:39 freelikegnu the best part was about freeways being turned into long stretches of parks
19:40 est31 luizrpgluiz, lua is a very slow language, it has gc which makes it slow
19:40 est31 therefore its better, luizrpgluiz, to write the actual code in c++ and allow customisation
19:41 freelikegnu a spawned mob arena could b efun
19:42 freelikegnu first would have to be a way to build mobs in game
19:45 luizrpgluiz but many developers forget that you can change the script language
19:45 nrzkt freelikegnu i'm thinking about the same idea, i've implemented creature natively in core, this permit to remove many lua overhead :p
19:45 nrzkt i need to have friendly mobs which can attack monster, i will code it this weekend and generate a huge combat on my server to bench it :p
19:48 luizrpgluiz est31: because so far I do not understand the developers, the scripting language is open source, the code would first study it and make optimization in scripting language and make it faster
19:48 est31 luizrpgluiz, gc cant be made faster
19:48 est31 there has been lots of researc
19:48 est31 h
19:49 est31 but feel free to rewrite minetest in lua
19:49 nrzkt rewrite minetest in cobol please
19:49 nrzkt i need to run it on my mainframe :p
19:53 exio4 est31: it can be made faster
19:53 est31 exio4, then please make it
19:53 est31 without trading off ram
19:54 exio4 est31: you need to make tradeoffs and probably end with a runtime that's too bloated to be in a language like lua
19:54 exio4 est31: why not using mercury_
19:54 exio4 est31: why not using mercury? *
19:54 luizrpgluiz if the game was made in java, it would be even easier to do the mods
19:54 exio4 where you can run the garbage collector at compile-time
19:55 est31 exio4, I knew it was functional
19:55 exio4 luizrpgluiz: Java? I think you are confusing the terms "easy" and "a pain in the ass"
19:55 est31 you really like those functional programming languages, no?
19:55 exio4 est31: Mercury is more declarative than that though
19:55 est31 java is a nice language
19:55 Hijiri I guess I should come here more for the PL discussions
19:55 exio4 est31: it's more like a functional and pure version of prolog
19:55 exio4 than a declarative version of a FP
19:55 luizrpgluiz kkkkkkkkkk
19:56 exio4 est31: nice? you mean semantically awful?
19:56 est31 exio4, java does its job
19:56 est31 and its used commonplace
19:56 exio4 est31: I didn't know mutable covariants array were a thing until Java introduced me to it
19:57 luizrpgluiz but terasology is all in java, especially the main modules of the game
19:57 exio4 est31: and obviously, _partial_ type erasure and reflection at the same time is going to work well!
19:57 exio4 luizrpgluiz: that's nice, that doesn't make the language less crappy
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19:58 est31 who needs reflection
19:58 exio4 est31: depending on the language, one of the easiest ways to get a language with fast GC, is to design the language such that you can do lots of static analysis and avoid using the GC at all, I would say, but that's more of a performance
19:58 exio4 est31: that's not an excuse, if you _want_ it, then do it decently
19:59 exio4 er, s/want/support
19:59 est31 also exio4 it seems that type erasure only happens for generics
19:59 exio4 yes, partial type erasure
20:00 est31 but for the normal people it works already well
20:00 est31 its just not complete
20:00 Hijiri do normal people not use generics
20:00 est31 its a feature of the language, so whats broken about it
20:00 exio4 probably in Java they use unsound things
20:00 exio4 est31: unsoundness is bad
20:00 est31 its like complaining that c strings stop with the first NUL character
20:01 est31 well, thats how its designed
20:01 exio4 yes, that's badly designed
20:01 luizrpgluiz the minetest was done in java (even being a language that depends upon a beautiful computer to run) bet well programmed and optimized, the game would be better than the MC itself
20:02 exio4 est31: I am just saying that Jav's features are not features but misfeatures
20:02 exio4 Java*
20:02 Hijiri I bet that if reuben sandwiches used peanut butter, they would be the best sandwiches in the world
20:03 exio4 most Java features are more like "hi we don't know what we are doing, let's mix stuff together, until it compiles in some way we like"
20:04 exio4 (or at least, they feel like so)
20:06 exio4 est31: no, it's like I complained that C strings stop with the second nul character if their length is even
20:07 exio4 est31: (which makes no sense said this way, the stuff I said basically makes no sense from a practical point of view, as they were hacks and workarounds added on top of a broken language)
20:07 exio4 Java lacked generics until really late, so unsound covariant data structures were used instead
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20:07 freelikegnu nrzkt: cool
20:07 exio4 and now, when it has generics, it's still not doing things properly
20:08 exio4 I am not even asking for dependently typed fields or anything, just doing things properly, instead of adding workarounds, fix the damn issues
20:09 est31 exio4, c++ doesnt do generics nice either
20:09 est31 compared with java they are horrible
20:10 exio4 C++ doesn't do generics at all, it does metaprogramming
20:10 exio4 the fact that you can use a limited subset of it for doing generic programming is different :D
20:11 est31 thats an implementation detail exio4.
20:11 exio4 how is it an implementation detail?
20:12 exio4 as I said, C++ does not do parametric polymorphism because it gives you no guarantee that you have with parametric polymorphism
20:12 exio4 it's like saying floats are integers because there's an integer part in them
20:13 exio4 also, that covariance hack means you've got an extra runtime check
20:13 exio4 when adding/changing values from the array
20:14 exio4 https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/l​ibrary/aa664572%28v=vs.71%29.aspx
20:14 est31 exio4, you can write compilers though that implement integers as floats
20:14 est31 nobody stops you from doing it
20:14 exio4 tl;dr you have a dynamic type system disguessed as a static one
20:14 exio4 est31: well, the semantics may disallow it if they specify a range where the int must range on
20:15 est31 32 bit integers work
20:15 est31 yes you cant implement 64 bit integers  with normal float
20:15 est31 s
20:16 Hijiri I thought you needed double precision for 32 bit integers
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20:17 est31 64 bit IEEEE floats
20:17 exio4 and what about overflowing?
20:17 Hijiri oh ok
20:17 est31 dunno if IEEEE calls it 64 bit
20:17 exio4 IEEEE? why the four Es?
20:17 est31 exio4, you'd have to manually mimic it
20:17 est31 dunno how many Es they have
20:17 exio4 est31: yes, but as long as they are semantically equal it doesn't matter
20:17 exio4 also, IEEE
20:18 est31 I overflow at two
20:18 exio4 afaik
20:18 exio4 est31: I fail to see which point you are trying to make
20:19 exio4 the fact that `the computer` may be actually be a bunch of slave cheap labor moving wires, doesn't matter at all from a denotational world, as long as they comply to the spec
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20:20 est31 exio4, java's support for generic types is enough for the real world use case
20:20 exio4 I would say it is not
20:20 exio4 the real world uses the tools you give it
20:21 exio4 the fact that new tools are designed around older broken-tools doesn't make the news tools less broken
20:21 est31 and they have java, and they use it
20:21 est31 but they work
20:21 exio4 yup, same goes with PHP
20:21 exio4 it also does work
20:21 est31 exio4, we have different attitudes
20:22 exio4 new tools*
20:22 exio4 not news tools
20:22 est31 you care about language features, and how shiny a language is
20:22 est31 I care about how many users a lang has, so that it is well tested
20:22 est31 and has proper industry support
20:22 exio4 yeah, pragmatism wins normally
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20:23 exio4 est31: indeed, if we care more about the user base, we could be using Javascript, PHP, Node.js, Python, and Java everywhere!.. oh wait
20:23 exio4 that's what we're doing
20:23 est31 so whats wrong about it
20:23 exio4 (I like that tautology)
20:23 exio4 est31: that from a technical POV those languages are basically a mess
20:24 est31 I know if it were you, we'd use some functional generic dialect
20:24 est31 the code written with them is it too
20:24 exio4 "is it too"?
20:24 est31 and its not because the language is bad
20:24 est31 but because the people dont care
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20:24 exio4 yup, that's the whole reason of using those languages at all
20:25 exio4 if people cared about their tools, we would be using things that make sense at least
20:25 WSDguy2014 Guys, how i do change language in game Minetest?
20:26 est31 exio4, java and javascript are aged languages
20:26 est31 python is a programming learner language
20:26 exio4 they started like a mess and now are a mess with workarounds
20:26 est31 they started as hack
20:26 est31 yes, but still better than PASCAL
20:26 WSDguy2014 :|   i have idea
20:26 est31 or cobol
20:27 est31 or ABC
20:27 est31 or BASIC
20:27 est31 thats the ground they started at
20:27 Calinou WSDguy2014, use minetest.conf: language = tt
20:27 exio4 est31: it's not that much of an improvement, to be honest, it indeed is, but it's just "we realized _some_ of the workarounds there could be built in in the hacks themselves"
20:27 Calinou where tt is two-language code of language
20:27 est31 to replace those dinos
20:27 Calinou fr, de, en, ja, es...
20:27 Calinou (see locale folder for list of all locales)
20:28 exio4 est31: indeed, it's just that the improvement was more achieved by marketing and buzzwords than by technical merits
20:28 est31 exio4, I dont like having to deal with compiler errors
20:28 exio4 est31: so you prefer to deal with runtime errors in production?
20:28 est31 I want that if there is a compiler error, thousands of people have it too
20:28 est31 (I mean bug in the compiler with compiler error)
20:28 exio4 ?
20:29 est31 s/compiler error/bug in the compiler/
20:29 exio4 the only bug I had with GHC was fixed in a timeable fashion
20:29 WSDguy2014 hmm, Calinou, its dosen't work
20:29 est31 you know, for c# there was this bug, and it was fixed quickly.
20:29 Calinou did you modify minetest.conf while the game was closed?
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20:30 est31 but honestly, I dont want to sit there for days trying to nail down the problem
20:30 exio4 est31: well, I would say compiler errors are still mostly a no problem
20:30 exio4 est31: (given that the language is aged enough)
20:30 est31 I better want to nail down my own errors
20:31 est31 (error := bug)
20:31 exio4 indeed, the whole point of using a language with more static analysis than what we're using nowadays is being able to reduce the bugs that aren't caught by the compiler
20:31 exio4 the idea is having the compiler and the language itself help you there :)
20:32 exio4 just try doing any kind of mass-refactoring in Python, it's impossible without slowing down the whole thing by orders of magnitune
20:32 exio4 because lots of things are implicit, and even things like typos in variables are caught at _runtime_ because the language's semantics for variable lookup are a mess
20:33 exio4 it's a bit of a tradeoff though, you pay the cost of having more bugs caught by the compile, by forcing yourself to fix them
20:34 exio4 (even though can you run half-broken code, nowadays, and makes type errors result in exceptions at runtime)
20:35 exio4 static analysis also allows you to have more optimizations available, too
20:35 exio4 from a pragmatic pov, it makes sense
20:35 exio4 because we obviously need more performance out of everything
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20:39 est31 thats why python is shit, and java is so much better
20:39 est31 it has strong typing
20:39 est31 and not that much implicit things
20:41 exio4 Java is no strongly-typed
20:42 exio4 if you want a proof: covariant arrays, the posibility of unsafe casts at runtime
20:42 exio4 (well, the way unsafecasts are idiomatic, actually)
20:42 exio4 Java's type system is also increibly limited, to the point where I would say Python does that better
20:43 est31 better than losing yourself in gazillions of levels of genericism
20:46 exio4 well, considering making the type system more limited ends in repeated and verbose code
20:46 exio4 and how the language makes strong typing actually a pain
20:46 exio4 I would disagree
20:47 exio4 also, implicit null
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20:58 est31 ?
20:58 est31 null's better than javascript's undefined mess.
21:01 freelikegnu I wonder if anyone will ever fork minetest for modding in python instead of lua XD
21:02 freelikegnu it would be cool for educators to be able to use both side by side
21:02 est31 lua is a much nicer language than python
21:02 ElectronLibre If we used python we would have to be very careful about what is used as libraries in every file.
21:03 est31 lua is a modding language, python is a learning language that has been misused for serious projects
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21:03 freelikegnu lua is handy for openwrt as well
21:04 est31 ElectronLibre, we have to be very careful already now, with lua
21:04 freelikegnu i had some fun last night making my goblins eat torches
21:05 ElectronLibre With the mod security, Lua's access to the system is quite limited.
21:05 ElectronLibre You can do whatever you want with Python and some specific libraries loaded, even more than what Lua could do.
21:07 freelikegnu I'd like to interact wiht the real world in minetest
21:07 freelikegnu there is the irc mod that is cool
21:10 freelikegnu there was a pull request to add a networking stack to communicate between servers
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21:14 kaeza freelikegnu, you may like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo_GT6a4M90
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21:16 freelikegnu that is cool :D
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22:26 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest_game: Stairs: Add straw and metal blocks 450543f http://git.io/v3SwI (2015-08-14T23:23:41+01:00)
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22:38 freelikegnu adding straw and metal blocks while bronze is causing kittens to die?!
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23:24 xfceKris Anyone know the best place to ask a question about a dual boot problem
23:24 xfceKris ???
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23:57 jentron can I turn off player v. player violence without resetting the server?
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