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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-07-06

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01:53 technomancy does minetest expose any checksums over the lua API?
01:55 technomancy I see there's a sha1 implementation in the C++, but it's not exposed it looks like
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01:57 kahrl technomancy: it's hacky but you can use minetest.get_password_hash("", text_to_sha1)
01:57 kahrl a few mods do that already iirc so it's probably not going away
01:57 technomancy kahrl: oh, perfect
01:57 technomancy thanks!
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02:52 technomancy holy smokes; who designed lua's io.popen
02:52 technomancy what idiot thought you should only be allowed to read *or* write from a pipe, but not both
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03:02 kaeza technomancy, probably -> #lua
03:03 kaeza and yes, it's idiotic
03:05 ekem bidirectional pipes are not ideal
03:05 ekem the reason they are left out is because they create a shit ton of problems
03:05 technomancy ideal or not, they are a basic fact of operating systems
03:06 ekem only for trivial operations
03:06 ekem no one uses bidirectional pipes in production, its just not done
03:06 ekem because of the insane amount of problems you introduce
03:06 ekem heres a better write up then i will _ever_ produce
03:06 ekem http://lua-users.org/lists/‚Äčlua-l/2007-10/msg00189.html
03:07 kaeza if you need them, you could just create a C lib exposing raw access to `popen`, but whatevs
03:07 ekem notice how it mentions popen2 isnt even in posix itself?
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09:17 JamesTait Good morning all; happy Monday, and happy Take Your Webmaster To Lunch Day! ūüėÉ
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11:02 MyTeke_ChrisWMas Lol, Mr.James.
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13:29 Calinou is it possible to speed up server downloads without using remote_media?
13:29 Calinou ie. increasing max UDP upload speed
13:29 est31 its usually only the first time
13:29 est31 then no download is needed
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14:52 Sketch2 Here's a thought for speeding it up: what if media packs were stored on Minetest.net
14:52 Sketch2 When a server registers as public, a directory is set up to keep a current version of the cache files.
14:52 Sketch2 When you log into a server, the first thing it does is check that repository to get the files,
14:52 Sketch2 then it'll log into the server without bogging it down.
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14:54 Sketch2 I know some have uploaded their cache files as Zips that you download and unpack yourself, but I'm saying automate the whole process.
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14:57 Sketch2 I would imagine the bandwidth available on minetest.net is much greater than some of the smaller game servers out there.
15:02 Calinou it's problematic: legality, security, maintainability
15:02 Calinou and too centralized
15:04 Sketch2 Thy are already putting their trust into it by reporting that they are public
15:04 Sketch2 I don't see how storing a few files on the server is much different
15:05 Calinou what if someone hosts objectionable media on their server?
15:05 Calinou and uploads it to minetest.net?
15:06 Sketch2 I get what you're saying, but it's not like storing it does anything to the site
15:06 Sketch2 it's just a place to hold onto it
15:07 Sketch2 like a bank vault
15:07 Calinou if it's not encrypted and minetest.net knows the key, they are legally liable
15:07 Sketch2 banks aren't affected by what's in their vaults
15:08 Sketch2 ok, well if that's the issue, encrypt it
15:08 Sketch2 it doesn't need to be anything fancy, just a simple password on a zip
15:09 Calinou very easy to crack.
15:09 Sketch2 when the site registers as public, the owner provides a password
15:10 Calinou it is pointless if minetest.net gets to know the encryption key anyway
15:10 Calinou let's just forget about this, and stick with decentralized remote_media
15:10 Sketch2 we aren't talking about credit-card transactions, who really cares if they are opened
15:10 Calinou we just need a damn tutorial to set it up
15:10 Calinou it's nowhere documented!
15:10 Calinou Sketch2, do you want celeron55 to go to jail?
15:10 Sketch2 I thought you'd like the idea
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15:14 Sketch2 There's a lot of kids who wouldn't know how to do it
15:15 Calinou then we should provide helpers and documentation to host remote_media on their own server
15:15 Sketch2 especially what with tablets logging on nowadays
15:15 Calinou not on minetest.net where we are liable for what they upload
15:15 Calinou you can host a Web server on a mobile device, it's tricky but possible, and I wouldn't advise it
15:15 Calinou you'd need port forwarding probably, and most ISPs don't allow forwarding port 80
15:16 xenkey Mine did
15:16 Sketch2 no no, I'm not saying host it on a mobile device.  I'm saying that users join in from mobile devices
15:16 Sketch2 it's tricky for them to download media caches
15:16 xenkey I'd suggest using ssh -R (look it up)
15:16 xenkey oh
15:16 xenkey Like that uh
15:16 xenkey Run nedia
15:16 xenkey sorry
15:17 xenkey Run media.sh and upload the files somewhere
15:17 Sketch2 that sounds right
15:17 xenkey I think it's in sfan5's gist page
15:18 sfan5 https://gist.github.com/sfan5/6351560
15:18 Sketch2 yeah, it wouldn't need to be on minetest.net, if you're that worried about it
15:18 Sketch2 but maybe when the admin registers a page, there can be a dropbox link that it pulls from or something along those lines
15:21 Sketch2 ok, so yeah, glad the idea is being thought about.  Sorry if I upset you Calinou.  Just brainstorming.
15:21 Calinou that's not proper documentation
15:21 Calinou it doesn't document the whole process about dependencies, Web servers...
15:21 Calinou and Windows support
15:21 Calinou (which is secondary, but that we still should have)
15:22 sfan5 what is not proper documentation?
15:22 Calinou something on the wiki would make sense
15:22 Calinou I've never set up remote media successfully so I can't vouch for it
15:23 Sketch2 It would to people who are tech-savvy, but Minetest is a game, that goes to kids
15:23 Sketch2 kids have no idea how to do these things
15:26 Sketch2 I've got a 10 year-old that plays Minetest on his tablet.  I wouldn't ask him to download a cache file and unzip it on his tablet for every server he tries.
15:27 Sketch2 I wouldn't ask you to, and you know how.
15:27 Sketch2 Because that's doing too much.  You want to log in and play.
15:29 Sketch2 Just saying that the game servers could run faster if their media files were remotely cached.
15:29 Sketch2 It makes sense to me.  If you like the idea, that's cool.  If not, let's talk about it.
15:38 sfan5 uh
15:38 Calinou Sketch2, you do realize people can host their own remote_media server, which can be used if the client supports cURL?
15:39 Calinou we've had this since Q1 2013
15:39 Calinou it's just a Web server
15:39 Calinou akin to Web map download in Quake-likes
15:39 Sketch2 ok, so my point is: why isn't it automatic?
15:40 Sketch2 it's not something you can easily do on a tablet
15:40 sfan5 automatic?
15:40 sfan5 the clients don't need to do anything
15:40 Sketch2 that's why I bring it up
15:40 sfan5 all you need is a server host that has this set up
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15:44 Sketch2 ok, so as Calinou is saying, is this feature documented?
15:44 Calinou not really, and that's what I'm complaining about
15:44 Sketch2 I don't remember reading about it.
15:44 Sketch2 ok, ty.  Then we're on the same page.
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16:30 Wuzzy Hybrid Dog just claimed you can dig almost every dig only by using a ‚Äúmodified client‚ÄĚ (haha, nice euphemism).
16:30 Wuzzy you can dig almost every block*
16:30 Wuzzy Is this true? Is the server really this dumb?
16:31 Sketch2 I believe it.  free pizza server had people breaking blocks they shouldn't be able to
16:31 Sketch2 I stopped going there, because I thought it was a faulty mod, but that makes sense
16:31 Wuzzy for instance ...?
16:31 Wuzzy what blocks did they break?
16:32 Sketch2 I had a half a doz fridges full of cobble and an elevator set up by spawn
16:32 Sketch2 they broke 'em both, even though the fridges were full of cobble
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16:34 Wuzzy I don't know those mods, it could also just be the mod is buggy and did not handle all corner cases; and the players simply found a loophole
16:34 Sketch2 I thought it was the lightsaber mod that was buggy
16:34 Wuzzy what is the lightsaber?
16:34 Sketch2 because that's what the kid had that was chasing me, moments before my friges disappeared
16:35 Wuzzy is it a ‚Äúbreak everything‚ÄĚ tool?
16:35 Sketch2 it's not supposed to
16:35 Wuzzy what *should* it break?
16:36 Sketch2 stuff that normally breaks?
16:36 Wuzzy *sigh*
16:36 Sketch2 lols
16:36 Wuzzy This is not helping. I'm searching the mod for myselves.
16:36 Sketch2 I'm sorry.  I didn't look at the source of it
16:37 Wuzzy how is the mod called?
16:37 Wuzzy or the item?
16:37 Wuzzy just ‚Äúlightsaber‚ÄĚ?
16:37 Sketch2 most likely.  I can look
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16:38 Sketch2 Laser sword  [laser_mod]
16:39 Sketch2 well, I think that's it, but it must have been modded, because there was more than 1 color
16:42 Wuzzy oh
16:42 Wuzzy well, the original mod is very simple
16:42 Wuzzy it just breaks crumbly, snappy and cracky
16:42 Wuzzy so this mod clearly can't be the cause
16:42 sfan5 are you sure?
16:43 CWz my house is now OS diverse. we got Windows, Linux and now PCBSD(freebsd based)
16:43 Wuzzy yes, this is the entire source code: https://github.com/Roberto5/l‚Äčaser_mod/blob/master/init.lua
16:43 AnotherBrick and couple of androids i guess?
16:43 Sketch2 I'm seeing another called starwars that has 3 color lightsabers.   I'd have to check the server and bring up a list of mods to be certain.
16:43 Sketch2 1 moment please
16:46 Sketch2 it's called   laser_mod   on the server, so yeah, I'm guessing it's a fork
16:48 Sketch2 there's  blue, green, red, & yellow there
16:48 Sketch2 crated with glass, dye, and mese crystal.  if that helps
16:49 Sketch2 I don't know that it was that particular mod, I just know the kid chasing me had one.
16:50 Sketch2 As wuzzy said, if there's a client out there that's breaking breaking bricks, that coulda been it.  I just hadn't thought of it as the time.
16:51 Sketch2 * at that time.
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17:02 Sketch2 they were in protected areas
17:05 Sketch2 I dunno, spawn is a mess over there.  whoever is doing it is just blasting through protected blocks like it's nothing
17:06 Sketch2 well, the spawn pizza is ok, but the area right around it is a mess
17:07 Sketch2 so someone over there has some ability they shoudn't.  admin pick or something like that
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17:40 * VanessaE peeks in
17:40 Sketch2 hiya V   :)
17:41 VanessaE Calinou: actually were such a centralized server to be hosted in the US, the DMCA would at least guard against copyright claims ("Safe harbor" provision, under the assumption that the host remove files on receipt of a DMCA notice).  Not at all good for "illegal" files though.
17:41 VanessaE hey hey Sketch2, long time no see
17:43 Sketch2 Yeah, that sounds right.  There could also be a waiver or something to that effect, that the contents are the responsibility of the owner, not the website.
17:45 Calinou those waivers don't have an unlimited scope and effect
17:47 est31 I think its stupid to have a centralized media server
17:47 est31 I mean, why not run the whole server business centralized?
17:47 Sketch2 it doesn't have to be centralized, just the addy's
17:47 Sketch2 that's what the public list is for
17:48 est31 the public list is to give a list of servers, not to donate media download bandwidth
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17:48 Sketch2 well, even that doesn't have to be centralized
17:49 est31 it isnt
17:49 Sketch2 but I like the idea that the people can get the media before logging on
17:49 est31 you can set your own custom list url in the client
17:50 Sketch2 eh, it's so hard to talk in forums.  I'm not saying the list doesn't have to be centralized.  I'm saying the media-files don't have to be
17:50 Sketch2 they can be stored anywhere, so long as the client can automatically D/L them before connecting
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17:51 Sketch2 so the game server can concentrate on gaming performance
17:51 Sketch2 and the media server can just send media files
17:54 est31 Sketch2, you can do that already now
17:54 VanessaE Calinou: in maptools, is there a block you can only pass through if you have interact?
17:54 est31 and I think VanessaE does it, ask her how to set it up
17:54 Calinou VanessaE, nope, impossible
17:54 VanessaE damn.
17:54 VanessaE ok
17:55 Calinou would require client-side modding I guess
17:55 VanessaE est31: yeah, I have a remote_media server.  it's not TOO complex, but it's more complicated than any noob is ever going to figure out
17:56 VanessaE but then again I host everything on my own box, so I have to manage nginx, bind, etc. also
17:56 Sketch2 people keep telling me it's possible, but undocumented.  maybe we could pass that info along
17:56 Calinou I'd like to host remote_media
17:56 Calinou for my hunger games
17:57 est31 somebody sould add it to some wiki page
18:00 VanessaE step 1:  establish a place to host the media.  2: establish a web server there to actually serve it.  3: copy all your jpg, png, obj, x etc files into the directory you're serving from.  4:  put this in your server's config: remote_media = <url for that directory>
18:00 VanessaE it's step 2 that's the hard part.
18:01 TBC_x how are the media files distinguished anyways? path?
18:01 VanessaE TBC_x: by filename, or you can use another method where they're distunguished by hash
18:02 TBC_x so the client won't be downloading the universe when connecting to another server with similar mod set?
18:02 Calinou don't you need to use collectstatic.sh?
18:03 Sketch2 As I understand it, that's right TBC_x
18:04 TBC_x great
18:06 VanessaE yes, so long as the files have the same hash from server to server, the client will just re-use what it has
18:06 VanessaE Calinou: is that sfan5's index.mth script ?
18:06 sfan5 VanessaE: yes
18:07 VanessaE this also needs added to wherever the process will be documented then.
18:07 sfan5 Calinou: what VanessaE describe is the deprecated way (not even sure whether it still works), it requires the client to download every file just to see whether they match and it should not be used anympre
18:07 sfan5 anymore*
18:08 VanessaE sfan5: it still works fine, yes.
18:08 VanessaE deprecated though it may be, it's possible to use that method without involving a script that no one can seem to find.
18:09 Sketch2 I agree, it's not deprecated until it's in the public that there's something better available
18:09 TBC_x it needs more sophisticated resource loader IMHO
18:09 sfan5 why?
18:10 Sketch2 you have to let people know what the tools are so they can use 'em
18:10 sfan5 VanessaE: it was always on some page of https://gist.github.com/sfan5 i do agree that it needs to be documented in the wiki however
18:11 VanessaE sfan5: that's just it, a noob will never think to look there :P
18:11 VanessaE (among your gists I mean)
18:11 Sketch2 right.  I've never heard of it, and I'm not a complete noob either
18:12 Sketch2 It's great that you make it, but people have to know it
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18:28 Sketch2 so collectstatic.sh basically does step 1 for you, and then creates a hash for the whole directory?
18:29 Sketch2 by "step 1"  I mean, that it collects all the files into 1 directory, like VanessaE said.
18:29 VanessaE well step 3 in my example.
18:29 VanessaE step 1 means to get a shared hosting account or VPS or dedi or something
18:29 Sketch2 oh, sorry, yeah.  I read that wrong.  you're right
18:30 VanessaE step 2 means to set up your web server and point it at a directory
18:30 Sketch2 I guess I'm just trying to figure out what sfan5's script does
18:30 sfan5 it collect all the media
18:31 sfan5 and renames it to the sha1 hash of the file contents in the process
18:31 Sketch2 so mth is a master hash table so that the client doesn't have to download the files, jsut look 'em up in there?
18:33 Sketch2 if they match, all is good, if not, THEN it'll download the updated file.  Am I reading it right?
18:33 Calinou can we document all methods please? and say which one is the most suitable for general use?
18:33 sfan5 the old method is deprecated
18:34 sfan5 not officially
18:34 Calinou so we should use collectstatic?
18:34 sfan5 but it has a few drawbacks
18:34 Sketch2 I like sfan5's idea, if I'm reading it right
18:34 sfan5 which is why there is the new method
18:34 sfan5 Sketch2: it's not an idea, it's already implemented since probably a year now
18:34 sfan5 Calinou: yes
18:34 Sketch2 ok, it's just never been explained to me
18:35 sfan5 <Sketch2> if they match, all is good, if not, THEN it'll download the updated file.  Am I reading it right?
18:35 sfan5 not exactly
18:35 sfan5 the server gives the client the sha1 hashes of media the client needs
18:35 sfan5 the client downloads index.mth which is a list of all media files on the remote media server
18:35 Calinou https://gist.github.com/sfan5/9586533
18:36 Calinou it would be nice to have this in Minetest core... ::
18:36 sfan5 then the client checks whether the media he needs is in index.mth, if yes he downloads it via http
18:36 Sketch2 right, that's how I read it.
18:36 VanessaE indeed, if it's tried and tested, it needs to be included with minetest.
18:36 sfan5 if not he downloads it using the minetest protocol (which is slow)
18:36 sfan5 ofc the client does not do any of that for media files that are already in the local cache
18:37 Calinou your collectstatic.sh does not cache .obj
18:37 sfan5 ~/.minetest/cache
18:37 Calinou or .md2, or .jpg
18:37 Calinou which we all support
18:37 sfan5 Calinou: irrlicht supports waaay more formats but I'm going to add those you mentioned
18:38 sfan5 <Calinou> https://gist.github.com/sfan5/9586533    <Calinou> it would be nice to have this in Minetest core... ::
18:38 sfan5 ofc it would
18:38 Sketch2 this could speed up server load time quite a bit.
18:38 sfan5 but the coredevs would need to merge the patch then
18:38 Calinou I'm generating index.mth for my hunger games server
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18:42 Calinou sfan5, does remote_media line require a trailing slash?
18:42 Calinou I'm putting one
18:42 sfan5 uh no idea
18:42 sfan5 it shouldn't require one
18:42 sfan5 but adding one cant hurt
18:43 Calinou wow it works!
18:43 Calinou so much faster to load
18:43 Calinou thanks a lot for this script
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18:46 sfan5 Calinou: is obj or md2 even used by mods?
18:47 Calinou .obj is used by moreblocks and slope_test
18:47 Calinou md2 is used by Quake 2 nostalgics :)
18:47 Calinou it is supported by Minetest's meshnode code
18:48 sfan5 is b3d used in any mods?
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18:49 Sketch2 I think blender files are in some mobs
18:49 sfan5 blender files are high-level stuff
18:49 Sketch2 I could be mistaken tho.  maybe they are converted.
18:49 sfan5 irrlicht does not read blender files
18:49 sfan5 they need to be converted first
18:50 VanessaE sfan5: no offense, but your script needs improvement
18:50 sfan5 ok
18:51 exio4 which script?
18:51 sfan5 https://gist.github.com/sfan5/6351560
18:51 Calinou b3d is not blender files
18:51 Calinou it's blitz3d
18:51 Sketch2 I realized that right after I typed it
18:52 Sketch2 sorry.  I use blender, I should know better
18:52 VanessaE not much though; you shouldn't hardcode the game and path, those should be taken from a commandline arg.  And, you should write your files to a temp dir first and rsync them to the desired target.
18:52 sfan5 >you shouldn't hardcode the game and path
18:53 sfan5 sorry for forcing you to open an editor >.>
18:53 sfan5 also why should i use a temp dir first?
18:53 VanessaE suddenly:  multiple servers.
18:53 VanessaE (with different game folders)
18:54 Sketch2 I agree that the path shouldn't be hardcoded if this were to be included.
18:54 VanessaE and rsync to minimize the amount of time spent with differing or invalid files when you're doing some big update.
18:54 sfan5 invalid files?
18:54 VanessaE i.e. if you'd normally rm -rf the target path and copy new files in, to about keeping duplicate old files around.
18:55 sfan5 also files won't change
18:55 VanessaE sure they will
18:55 sfan5 no
18:55 VanessaE files changes -> hash changes
18:55 sfan5 yeah
18:55 VanessaE then you have old files laying around
18:55 sfan5 hash changes -> filename changes
18:55 VanessaE yes
18:55 sfan5 the file contents will never change
18:55 sfan5 you'll have a new file
18:56 VanessaE what about the old files?
18:56 sfan5 they stay
18:56 VanessaE exactly.
18:56 sfan5 unless you remove them first
18:56 VanessaE they're obsolete.
18:56 Calinou maybe we can move to Python, so that the script is cross-platform
18:56 VanessaE hence use rsync.
18:56 Calinou (-:
18:56 sfan5 Calinou: file operations and such stuff are horrible in python
18:57 VanessaE the script I use for this purpose takes care of that.  it never leaves old files hanging around in in the target dir.
18:58 VanessaE also speed.  temp dir could be in /dev/shm or something, rsynced to the live dir in one quick blow.  When you push ~50 MB of image data at a time, that DOES matter a bit.
18:59 sfan5 i don't see how this script can be a bottleneck for anything
18:59 sfan5 it's not like you need to do it once per startup or every n hours
19:00 VanessaE actually, I run my upload-files script a few times a day.
19:00 VanessaE on an active server, there's always someone needing a skin updated or something
19:03 VanessaE (the same script calls my update-worldmods script, the one I use in lieu of yours)
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21:52 kaeza Greetings
21:53 Sokomine hi
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22:14 BoppreH Hi guys
22:14 BoppreH I think there's a problem with the dev wiki
22:14 BoppreH Account creating errors out saying it's missing some hidden code, and changing pages asks me to select non-existent cat photos
22:15 BoppreH Tried with both firefox and chrome, with and without extensions
22:15 BoppreH More specifically, page edition says: "To help protect against automated edit spam, please select just the cat photos in the box below: [nothing]"
22:16 BoppreH And account creation: "Incorrect or missing confirmation code. "
22:17 BoppreH Both cases look like missing the authentication system. Web console says "asirraState is not defined" in some javascript.
22:19 est31 BoppreH, you have to ask here, people here have the power to give you accounts
22:19 est31 Try /msg Tesseract , he can create accounts
22:20 est31 with your mail address
22:25 BoppreH thanks
22:26 BoppreH Maybe the wiki should mention that?
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23:45 DN Hello
23:45 DN I'm looking for help with "Animals" mod, any1 familiar with it?
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23:49 blaaaaargh DN, don't ask to ask, just ask.
23:50 DN /mobf command rarely works. 2. When it works and I check the "Enable secondary spawing" I get an error msg   "ACTION[main]: MOBF: failed to open world specific config file 17:23:17: ERROR[main]: MOBF: failed to swap old conf file to new one

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