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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-06-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:43 Undertaker hello!
01:43 Undertaker someone ?
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02:01 OldCoder Three words for a mod
02:01 OldCoder just three words I heard just now
02:01 OldCoder
02:01 OldCoder "NPC Dance Party"
02:01 OldCoder
02:04 Undertaker I need report a bug in the mod plantlife
02:06 Undertaker I have a server in Minetest and I tested the grass of plantlife, if you put flame in one grass you will get a infinity flames destructing the world
02:07 Undertaker the flame do not stop to spread
02:07 Undertaker the solution would be for the grass only burn the block where he is
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02:11 Undertaker print of test http://i.imgur.com/cjTwVie.png
02:16 Wayward_Tab Undertaker: does it spread slowly, or is it instant?
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02:17 Undertaker is very fast
02:18 Wayward_Tab Hmm
02:18 Wayward_Tab I don't know what would cause that
02:20 Undertaker yes, I tried also
02:21 Wayward_Tab VanessaE may be able to help more than me though
02:22 Undertaker yes maybe, thanks
02:22 Wayward_Tab Also, you could try filing an issue on the mod's GitHub page: https://github.com/Vanessa​E/plantlife_modpack/issues
02:24 Undertaker OK I will report it
02:43 Undertaker https://github.com/VanessaE/​plantlife_modpack/issues/51
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04:03 Wayward_Tab O.o
04:03 Wayward_Tab I now get a 403 error when trying to report a post on the forum
04:07 Wayward_Tab On a similar note, spam seems just as prevalent as before
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06:59 VanessaE Wayward_Tab: should be all cleaned up now.
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08:45 ishands-me I recently downloaded sfan5's 64-bit minetest build
08:45 ishands-me When I get to the world name area, I keep typing but letters don't appear
08:46 ishands-me This problem seems to be windows 8.1 specific. Both me and my friend are having this problem
08:46 Calinou ishands-me, does it occur with other buildS?
08:46 Calinou does it occur with the official 0.4.12 build?
08:47 ishands-me I'll have to check. wait
08:48 celeron55 Wayward_Tab: noted and that 403 is now gone
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08:52 ishands-me BTW Calinou, why did you take mesecons out of Carbone?
08:55 ishands-me Okay. On the official builds, the cursor moves when I type, but I can't see any of the letters
08:55 ishands-me Copy pasting works fine on both builds and I can see the letters
08:55 sfan5 I'll make a new build
08:55 sfan5 maybe that fixes it
08:56 ishands-me ^ I can reproduce 90% of the problem on the official builds too
08:57 ishands-me My friend has had this problem for a pretty long time. I recently got 8.1 and am having it now
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09:01 ishands-me I think it has something to do with locale
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09:04 ishands-me Okay. While playing, I can't press WASD + space. ESC does not work
09:04 ishands-me I can reproduce this error with 3 keyboards
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09:38 celeron55 okay forum will be randomly broken for an hour or so now because phpbb sucks and i can't bother setting up a second instance just to allow me to execute its stupid install scripts from a browser away from the live version
09:39 celeron55 enjoy and go blame them
09:53 celeron55 yeah i'm pretty sure this thing is full of all kinds of vulnerabilities; i might as well just release the full code and database to the public...
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10:01 celeron55 oh nice, now the style exploded
10:02 celeron55 what the fuck man
10:02 celeron55 this isn't even funny
10:04 celeron55 i guess we'll enjoy this random mix-up then
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10:05 celeron55 i'm going to replace phpbb with something else on the absolute first chance i get
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10:09 technomancy it's really a shame there's no decent free software mailing list hosts available
10:09 technomancy github does everything for you except that
10:10 celeron55 we have this, hosted by ShadowNinja: http://lists.minetest.net/listinfo/minetest-dev
10:10 celeron55 we could have a user list but i don't think most users prefer a mailing list at all
10:11 celeron55 the -dev list is pretty much dead since it was created too probably due to too many other discussion channels
10:11 sfan5 <celeron55> i'm going to replace phpbb with something else on the absolute first chance i get
10:11 sfan5 please do
10:11 technomancy I'm hardly a representative user, but I prefer something written in not-PHP to something written in PHP =)
10:12 celeron55 sfan5: it will probably have worse spam protection and less features. but it won't be phpbb so that will be great
10:13 sfan5 at least it won't be phpbb
10:13 technomancy you can have mailing lists that are as nice to use as forums, like 5-years-ago google groups
10:13 technomancy before it started it's cycle of self-immolation
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10:19 celeron55 now forum.minetest.net uses the projecthoneypot.org IP blacklist
10:20 CWz view online players seems to forbidding(error 403) now
10:20 CWz *users
10:21 celeron55 (and also a big bunch of blacklists that don't need registration)
10:21 celeron55 CWz: link?
10:22 celeron55 oh viewonline.php
10:22 CWz yes
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10:26 celeron55 i can't make this theme work
10:26 celeron55 this is ridiculous
10:26 celeron55 it just won't work
10:28 Calinou how about Discourse? NodeBB?
10:28 Calinou FlaskBB?
10:28 celeron55 wait lol actually i broke uploaded files too
10:29 celeron55 and profile images
10:29 celeron55 well this isn't going too well
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10:35 sfan5 Calinou: "FlaskBB is not yet stable so changes might occur without warning."
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10:37 Calinou any software is like that :P
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10:40 celeron55 asd
10:40 celeron55 -asd
10:40 celeron55 https://forum.minetest.net/forum​2/viewtopic.php?f=18&amp;t=12611
10:41 Calinou https://libraries.io/
10:41 Calinou whoa
10:42 celeron55 one of the stupid things that also happened is that i updated the forum to phpbb 3.0.14 - but for whatever reason the forum still thinks it's 3.0.12
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10:42 celeron55 and now i'm very confused about what went wrong
10:43 sfan5 maybe click this recheck-version button thing
10:43 sfan5 wait what
10:44 sfan5 celeron55: also https://forum.minetest.net/forum2/adm/in​dex.php?i=update&amp;mode=version_check gives some php error
10:45 someguy_irc oh I finally see celeron55 on here o-o, Hi.
10:45 sfan5 oh god what
10:45 sfan5 who designed this
10:46 sfan5 the report button looks very out of place considering all other buttons
10:46 sfan5 https://forum.minetest.net/styles/prosi​lver/imageset/icon_post_report_spam.gif vs. https://forum.minetest.net/styles/pro​silver/imageset/en/icon_post_edit.gif
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10:56 celeron55 i think i'll redo the mod installation on top of the previous version and then absolutely never touch anything again
10:59 celeron55 haha, now the whole forum is unaccessible including the admin pages as something went even more wrong with styles
11:00 celeron55 it's fucked
11:01 celeron55 i guess i need to go manually edit some database table now
11:01 sfan5 huh?
11:01 sfan5 the admin pages works for me
11:01 celeron55 umm
11:02 sfan5 and shift+f5 does not break it
11:02 celeron55 well how about not logging out and changing the theme for me to something that works
11:02 celeron55 assuming you can
11:02 CWz who knew that installing a plugin could get this messy
11:02 celeron55 i knew
11:03 celeron55 this is why i didn't want to do this
11:03 sfan5 You tried to manage a user with founder status. Only founders are allowed to manage other founders.
11:03 sfan5 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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11:06 celeron55 now i need to figure out in which table are these theme things set
11:08 Taoki Cool... someone managed to break or hack the Minetest forums...
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11:09 Taoki (not really, just pointing out they're broken)
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11:09 celeron55 maybe you should read like 2 lines upward
11:09 yang2003 Hi
11:10 Taoki Ah, sorry
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11:10 celeron55 well now it uses the phpbb default theme
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11:10 celeron55 i'm not going to touch it anymore
11:11 Taoki Yeah, shift + refresh works. And nice... looks ok :)
11:12 Taoki Still no smiley support though... damn :P
11:14 celeron55 foruum smileys and long forum signatures are the cancer of the internet
11:14 celeron55 -u
11:15 Taoki Agreed about the second thing.
11:16 kilbith i've not followed everything but does the spam preventing is strong now ?
11:16 celeron55 it should be
11:16 celeron55 it's a bit hard to tell immediately 8)
11:16 kilbith ok, that's the most important
11:20 celeron55 can someone tell me what theme is now in use for users? is it the broken minetest theme or the phpbb prosilver theme?
11:20 Taoki Yep. Thankfully I haven't seen any spam on the MT forums so far. But I imagine there was some
11:20 celeron55 removing spam has been pretty much a daily task for moderators for months now
11:20 celeron55 so it has been pretty bad
11:20 kilbith i still see prosilver actually
11:20 Taoki Ouch :(
11:21 Taoki Yeah, people register spam bots manually nowadays, since automatically it's no longer possible.
11:21 Taoki celeron55: Default phpbb theme it seems... the one with blue
11:22 Taoki Personally I think it looks good like this. BUT, that it should have a more mine-testy background of sorts.
11:22 kilbith for change the theme : https://lut.im/hsgaForn/h5Mbsc5p
11:23 kilbith at least the MT logo and back link to the main page
11:23 Taoki Ah, nice.
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11:29 Taoki The forum is working unusually slowly right now for some reason
11:34 * Taoki agrees the Minetest Maintheme is a better default though.
11:34 Taoki Oh nice, that one changed too actually. Closer to the default theme but adapted to Minetest. I like!
11:35 celeron55 the thing is, it's not working properly
11:35 celeron55 the mix is completely arbitrary
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11:36 Taoki Ah. I see a few issues with the header... nothing major thankfully
11:40 celeron55 whew
11:40 celeron55 now the style works as before
11:41 celeron55 this for sure is messed up; it's missing some files and then phpbb uses the files from whatever theme was used previously
11:41 celeron55 and it's a mess
11:41 Taoki Yeah, old theme looking good again now
11:41 sfan5 way nicer than the prosilver theme or the minetest-prosilver-mix theme
11:43 Taoki A shame that I have to die so young, and so painfully. But I will say: A theme similar to the Minecraft forum might not be bad :) (as in something that looks a bit brighter and happier, and better captures the theme of Minetest)
11:44 celeron55 wait, something is wrong though; why is this still showing the phpbb prosilver theme when one isn't logged in?!
11:44 celeron55 i already set the different default style
11:45 celeron55 this makes no sense
11:51 Taoki celeron55: For the Minetest Maintheme, can you make the background static as you scroll? I kinda like it when forums have a parallax effect, and it shouldn't annoy anyone.
11:52 Calinou fixed background is not parallax
11:52 Calinou parallax is a JS solution that is slow and annoys everyone; using a fixed background doesn't require JavaScript and isn't slow
11:53 Taoki Ah. Yeah I meant fixed as in to the view, not scrolling with it. I thought that's a basic html 3 / 4 feature... and from what I know it's a style element.
11:53 celeron55 now i managed to set the guest style
11:53 celeron55 and no, no changes anymore
11:54 Taoki So it doesn't require JS. Only gradual parallax does.
11:54 Taoki Ok
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12:36 TheWild what is CONTROLTYPE_DISCO for? Discovery? Disconnect?
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12:46 kilbith c55: if it's not too much for you, can you apply this please ? https://github.com/minetest/foru​m.minetest.net_template1/pull/6
12:47 sfan5 TheWild: disconnect
12:47 sfan5 kilbith: tip: c55 probably does not highlight him
12:47 kilbith pinging c55 may be dangereous 8)
12:49 Jordach c55 only hands out ass kickings, not code 8)
12:54 celeron55 i assume it works and will just merge it
12:54 celeron55 should be there now
12:57 kilbith thanks
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13:00 celeron55 i wonder if i should add the missing prosilver files to that repo...
13:00 celeron55 i guess it won't hurt and they should have been there to begin with
13:01 celeron55 well, maybe some other day
13:05 Taoki celeron55: Oh... if you're taking a look at PR's, maybe you can merge this too please: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2372
13:06 Taoki Fixes some issues with model animation. People confirmed it works fine.
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13:20 Junko Calinou; :D
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13:31 Taoki I've been having  a curiosity: Has anyne so far tried using Mapgen V7 schematic decorations to generate villages? Yes, I know it's probably really bad... I'd like to know for an own project however.
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14:05 Dave66 hi
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14:27 RealBadAngel Taoki, your pr havent passed anroid builds?
14:27 Taoki Huh. I didn't do anything that should affect that
14:27 Taoki Ah, perhaps the Irrlicht version thing
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14:31 RealBadAngel or client/server
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14:36 majner Hi
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14:41 poweroverwhelmin Hi
14:41 sfan5 hi
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14:42 poweroverwhelmin I have question about run Minetest on Windows XP. Whean I try to run minetest.exe I have message, like this: Problem with this application and needs to close. Can I run Minetest on WinXP?
14:42 sfan5 where did you download minetest
14:42 poweroverwhelmin On Ubuntu Minetest works great
14:43 poweroverwhelmin http://www.minetest.net/download
14:43 sfan5 so the msvc version
14:43 sfan5 poweroverwhelmin: can you try downloading the mingw version (right below "MinGW builds:")
14:44 poweroverwhelmin ok
14:45 poweroverwhelmin stan5 it's the same
14:46 poweroverwhelmin Last log message it's: Resizing WIndow (800 600)
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14:54 Amaz poweroverwhelmin, try this build:https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=42&amp;t=9515&amp;p=181227#p181227
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14:58 Calinou hi Junko
14:59 poweroverwhelmin Amaz, Application file not found: MSVCR100.dll
15:00 * Amaz shrugs
15:00 Amaz Sorry, I can't really help. I use linux.
15:01 Amaz I just know that those builds are compiled on XP
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15:11 poweroverwhelmin Ok, thanks for help. I must restart Computer. I just installed Microsoft Visual C + + 2010 Redistributable Package and now Minetest start but only main window. When I clict somwere  Minetest crashed
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15:26 TheWild are there plans to implement client-side scripting?
15:26 VanessaE yes, eventually
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15:27 TheWild how far is the idea developed? (idea, not the actual code)
15:28 TheWild e.g. deeper thoughts, concepts, principles, things we should avoid etc.
15:28 VanessaE not sure.
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15:31 Calinou maybe when France gets a new president
15:35 VanessaE there IS rudimentary client-side scripting already, but it's very limited and only works in the main menu
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16:06 mattminer4 Can anyone help me find the install directory for minetest on my linux machine?
16:07 mattminer4 I need help finding a config file in my minetest directory
16:09 VanessaE ~/.minetest/minetest.conf
16:09 VanessaE if you installed minetest globally/non-portable
16:10 mattminer4 on my linux Ubuntu machine I installed it from the command like with "sudo apt-get install minetest"
16:10 mattminer4 from the command line
16:10 VanessaE then that ^^^ is where it'll be
16:11 mattminer4 where the apt-get command is in Ubuntu?
16:11 VanessaE no, as above
16:11 VanessaE ~/.minetest/minetest.conf
16:12 VanessaE i.e. <your homedir>/.minetest/minetest.conf
16:12 mattminer4 ok thanks I did see that when I did the "ls -a" command in the CLI
16:13 VanessaE it won't exist until you run minetest for the first time
16:13 mattminer4 Okay
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16:14 mattminer4 I would like to enable the noclip and/or the fly features to help me when I am building bridges
16:14 VanessaE you do those things in-game
16:14 VanessaE not in your conf
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16:15 VanessaE just start minetest,  /grant singleplayer all
16:15 VanessaE then press 'k' to enable flying.  'h' to toggle noclip
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16:35 TheWild my few words about client side scripting: http://pastebin.com/8zCUZUUp
16:35 TheWild of course, os.* deserves banishment in this area
16:36 VanessaE hmmmm:  ^^^
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16:45 est31 TheWild, unfortunately it doesnt work that way
16:46 est31 minetest.clientside_execute
16:46 est31 can only take a string, no "function"
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16:46 est31 its of no use if its already parsed by lua on the server side
16:46 est31 same for minetest.clientside_bind
16:46 est31 ah you want to send bytecode
16:47 est31 bytecode is bad
16:47 TheWild why?
16:50 est31 its against the open source nature of minetest
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16:55 TheWild We won't do this because est31 said its against the open source nature of minetest. Same with passing through walls when lagging - we won't fix this because est31 said it's essentially DRM.
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16:55 Felix___ hi
16:56 Felix___ a simple question, how can I get minetest to run in english on windows?
16:56 Felix___ my system language is english but I'm getting estonian for some reason
16:57 Felix___ probably becused of teh keyboard layout used, im suspecting
16:59 est31 TheWild, other people share my opinions
16:59 est31 like for the wall-lagging situation
16:59 TheWild We have lot of mods for minetest, all of them are server-side and all (?) of them are open source. If someone wants to make his own mods on his own server and keep the code closed - I see no problem, it's his own interest.
17:00 est31 I think yesterday I've read sokomine in the forums saying that when you dont want people to enter your buildings, you should play singleplayer
17:00 est31 also what I think
17:00 est31 TheWild, yes they can keep the server side code closed
17:00 est31 but at least you can see which code they used
17:01 est31 or whether they modified an open source mode
17:01 TheWild (= it's better to write own server to get rid of the issue)
17:01 est31 discuss this with Calinou.
17:02 TheWild I can write my own mods and not releasing the source, can't I?
17:02 nore Felix___: build minetest without -DENABLE_GETTEXT
17:02 TheWild generally I see no point of not releasing the source but just example
17:02 est31 yes TheWild you can chose to not release the src
17:02 Felix___ nore: thats the only option?
17:03 nore TheWild: yes, you can, although people would like you to :)
17:03 est31 but at least clientside the source should be known
17:03 nore Felix___, ah, IIRC there is a setting too
17:03 est31 you can still write a "lua-minifier"
17:03 Taoki Hey there. I'm trying to define my own biomes for mgv7. However, for some reason, I still get builtin biomes which I did not define in my lua file. Anyone know what can be causing this conflict?
17:04 est31 that "protects your 'IP'"
17:04 TheWild yeah, yeah... loadstring(' some binary crap here ')()
17:04 nore try adding "language = en" in minetest.cong
17:04 nore s/cong/conf/
17:04 Taoki This is my simple test file, do I need anything more? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=w1jZrf9L
17:04 Taoki Why do I get sand or water with this?
17:05 * Felix___ fixed it by deleting everything but .localeuk
17:05 nore it works too :)
17:05 Taoki BTW: This is inspired from https://github.com/PilzAdam/nodetop​ia/blob/master/mods/base/mapgen.lua
17:05 Felix___ yeah, thanks for the advice though. :)
17:06 nore ehm... it looks like ok != english
17:06 nore s/ok/uk
17:06 est31 TheWild, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob​/990a96578f20244626b6b9f67f8e79a7e2e614ea​/src/script/cpp_api/s_security.cpp#L494
17:06 est31 and security *is* enabled for clienside scripting, with no option to disable
17:06 TheWild est31, if we don't like bytecode, text should work too
17:06 est31 ?
17:07 TheWild minetest.clientside_bind(10, "function(payload) ... end")
17:08 nore Felix___: try to delete *everything* in locale
17:08 est31 yea
17:08 est31 I had something else in mind
17:08 est31 you have a subdirectory of your mod
17:09 est31 and all the lua files in there get sent to the client on startup
17:09 Taoki Anyone have any thoughts? Why do I still get water, sand, etc. with that file alone? Shouldn't I simply have only one biome?
17:09 est31 or login
17:09 est31 then they get parsed and loaded
17:09 est31 on the client
17:09 TheWild hah, sounds good
17:09 est31 and dont have to be get parsed when you dont have time for it
17:10 est31 but hmmmm does it not me
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17:10 TheWild why?
17:10 est31 because he wanted to do it
17:10 est31 I think it was back in april
17:11 est31 but I dont want to put him under pressure
17:11 est31 this is a volunteer project :)
17:11 TheWild ah... dang! by hmmmm you meant that guy on IRC
17:12 est31 yes kwolekr
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17:13 TheWild still to be considered: a special server command with ID and payload for script-defined clientside actions
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17:14 est31 I think I've heard hmmmm talk about something like that (data sending between client and server lua)
17:23 TheWild now searching for loadstring(s)(x) - how to know about x when s is a text, not bytecode?
17:25 est31 see the url provided above https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob​/990a96578f20244626b6b9f67f8e79a7e2e614ea​/src/script/cpp_api/s_security.cpp#L494
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17:27 TheWild loadstring considered unsafe?
17:27 est31 I think bytecode is
17:28 TheWild if it is, so theoretically this too: (function()    malicious code here    end)()
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17:29 est31 define "malicious code"
17:30 TheWild okay, how loadstring could hurt
17:31 est31 I guess bytecode has been disabled because its use is limited
17:32 est31 and there is a risk when enabling, as the more surface you offer, the more likely is an exploit
17:32 est31 especially when it becomes binary
17:32 TheWild so you mean: there might be a security hole in Lua which can be exploited?
17:33 est31 yes in lua bytecode
17:33 Trixar_za joined #minetest
17:33 est31 its like cutting off an appendix at birth
17:33 est31 ok bad example
17:35 est31 (generally you dont want to operate newborn babies, because of the risk)
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17:40 MinetestBot [git] TeTpaAka -> minetest/minetest: Add minetest.register_on_player_hpchange aa13baa http://git.io/vIhCn (2015-06-13T19:40:31+02:00)
17:40 MinetestBot [git] TeTpaAka -> minetest/minetest: Add return list of individual counts to find_node_in_area e50aa4e http://git.io/vIhCc (2015-06-13T19:39:18+02:00)
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17:42 TheWild http://lua-users.org/lists/​lua-l/2010-08/msg00487.html - okay, I believe
17:43 est31 O.o
17:43 est31 cool ascii art :) http://www.corsix.org/lua/bytecode_abuse_0_1.lua
17:46 Calinou https://about.gitlab.com/2015/05/2​0/gitlab-gitorious-free-software/
17:46 TheWild I was sure Lua is secure, because it is like a jail, a C/C++ programmer is just giving functions to it and the only way to break the jail is that programmer fault.
17:47 Calinou <TheWild> We have lot of mods for minetest, all of them are server-side and all (?) of them are open source.
17:47 Calinou wrong
17:47 Calinou most mods in WIP mods have no license attached
17:47 Calinou we might see some people obfuscating their code too in the future
17:48 Calinou right now it hasn't happened, but it will happen at some point, I guarantee that
17:48 Calinou and these people will reply "lol i dont want people to steal!!!" and you're screwed
17:48 Calinou (it becomes even worse when other mods start depending on those mods.)
17:48 TheWild ahh... no license --> don't use it, you have never seen this code.
17:49 Calinou mods being interpreted and not compiled discourages users from making their mods obscure, but does not prevent it sadly
17:49 TheWild "interpreted" - wait, don't we have LuaJIT?
17:50 TheWild or you meant: resulting bytecode is interpreted
17:50 Calinou LuaJIT counts as interpreted for that purpose
17:50 Calinou you don't have to compile your mods ahead of time, and that's great
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17:53 MinetestBot [git] xyzz -> minetest/minetest: Use utf-8 in formspecs b6387b4 http://git.io/vIhlX (2015-06-13T19:49:55+02:00)
17:53 MinetestBot [git] est31 -> minetest/minetest: Add utf-8 conversion utilities and re-add intlGUIEditBox 572990d http://git.io/vIhl1 (2015-06-13T19:49:55+02:00)
18:17 Trixar_za ... the troll in me suddenly wants to create mods with obfuscated code...
18:19 TheWild when developing not actual game but an engine, there are lot of moments in which you're not sure like: time required to break a node should be assigned to node or tool?
18:19 Taoki hmmmm: Hi. Are you around? Wanted to ask you something related to the mapgen. I guess the question works for anyone else if they know though, but I think this is often your area of code...
18:19 Calinou just ask it
18:20 Calinou TheWild, to tools; they have a powerful group system.
18:20 Calinou nodes should only have toughness information, not times
18:20 Calinou Trixar_za, we won't accept them into Mod Releases
18:21 sfan5 Calinou: why not? the rules allow it
18:21 Taoki hmmmm: Despite the obvious controversy to this, I'm trying to get the mapgen to generate villages, by having schematic buildings placed as decorations. Apparently, by using a perlin noise distribution, I should be able to reduce the chances of houses crashing into each other. But I'm not sure exactly how that can be tweaked.
18:21 Taoki Any thoughts on a good formula to try this?
18:21 Calinou sfan5, in mod releases, no
18:21 Calinou it's implicit but it goes without saying :P
18:21 sfan5 there are no rules that go without saying
18:22 est31 Taoki, the simplest way would be to place houses only at positions where z % max-house-size == 0
18:22 est31 or x
18:22 Trixar_za I had that exact same arguement with an atheist once. They assume morality is self-evident and then scream bloody murder when some kid kills something.
18:23 Taoki est31: Yes, I was thinking something like that. But how do I convert the whole thing into a perlin noise, or other value the decoration system can understand for distribution
18:23 est31 no idea, sorry :)
18:23 est31 I know not much bout mapgen
18:23 Taoki ok :)
18:24 Taoki Would appreciate one if anyone has
18:24 TheWild Calinou, yes, the grouping system in Minetest is one of the best things I've seen in programming. However, why we have only 3 groups?
18:24 est31 TheWild, you can add more groups if you want
18:24 est31 in mods
18:24 Calinou TheWild, design decision
18:24 Calinou - you can't make nodes that are very hard to dig (intended)
18:24 TheWild e.g. crumbly = 4? Will it work?
18:25 Calinou - you must use the level parameter for intermediate digging times
18:25 Calinou look at how steel block is tougher than most blocks thanks to level attribute
18:25 Calinou "tough though through thorough."
18:25 Calinou :D
18:26 TheWild can I combine tool and node parameters and by result have arbitrary digging times? Eg. 2.0375 second?
18:27 Calinou you won't be able to get exactly the time you want
18:27 TheWild ahh, sad.
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18:32 TheWild nevermind; grouping system is advanced enough, no words from me
18:40 hmmmm Taoki:  schematic decorations were not intended for placing discrete structures like villages.  i suggest you place those things manually.
18:41 hmmmm you'll have too many problems using scematic decorations
18:41 hmmmm est31:  I'll get time to work on minetest sometime later tonight
18:41 hmmmm hopefully
18:42 Taoki hmmmm: I know it's difficult like this. For what I want to do however, it seems like the best way. So I'd still like to try it. Which is why I was wondering, what noise settings can I use to at least influence the separation somewhat.
18:42 est31 yaay
18:42 Taoki For now, I get the impression I might get away with making the noise very detailed and grainy, then using a negative offset a bit.
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18:43 Taoki That way I might be able to only make a few spots "spike" out
18:43 Taoki But still not getting any good settings
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18:54 paramat Taoki see https://github.com/paramat/biomesdev init.lua you need 'clear registered biomes/decorations' at start of file
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18:56 paramat decoration placement is random so there's always a chance of houses overlapping, using a low fixed 'fill ratio' will help though
18:57 Taoki paramat: Thanks! Will try the settings there out.
18:57 Taoki paramat: Which tree schematic has the lowest probability there?
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18:58 paramat cacti
18:58 paramat and large cacti
18:59 paramat using 'sidelen = 80' will also reduce house density
19:00 paramat that allows you to reduce 'fill ratio' even further. copy the cacti settings as a starting point
19:01 Taoki What does sidelen do exactly? The documentation doesn't clarify that well enough.
19:01 Taoki And thanks again
19:04 paramat heh full docs aren't written yet. each mapchunk (80x80) is divided into squares of size 'sidelen', a fill ratio noise value is calculated for each square
19:04 paramat so sidelen must divide into 80, so usually use 16
19:05 paramat number of decorations = square area x fill ratio/noise value
19:06 * Taoki nods
19:06 Taoki And yeah, those noise settings are a lot closer to what I want. But of course not perfect either
19:06 Taoki Houses are very rare now, and even then some intersect each other. So yeah
19:16 rubenwardy tfw I thought this was spam: https://forum.minetest.net/viewto​pic.php?f=17&amp;p=181723#p181723
19:18 VanessaE no worries, rubem
19:18 VanessaE ruben*
19:18 VanessaE report closed.
19:19 paramat a lua mod that uses the mapgen object heightmap and 'place schematic' in 'on generated' will be fast and give control over house placement
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19:20 TheWild can someone take a look on this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1091
19:20 Taoki paramat: I'm thinking of something like that. But am not fully sure how to go about it. Since I basically want all houses to be aligned, but of course without intersecting
19:21 Taoki I already have the old Structures mod, written about 2 years ago. It even has roads. But it doesn't work for large cities, because the city is planned per instance, instead of each on_generate randomly placing a building.
19:22 Taoki Are there any village mods that use this approach? Having on_generated place a building, but without it intersecting other buildings. I could really use that.
19:22 workworkwork Hello. I'm lost in Minetest;) I must create a Compass and map but I don't know where is redstone. I have now steel ingot
19:22 workworkwork I lost my house;)
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19:28 * Taoki is curious to know if anyone created a village mod close to what I'm describing above: Have the on_generated function create a building, which can be of any size, without having to keep track of the entire village design.
19:29 TheWild workworkwork, this is not Minecraft.
19:29 workworkwork TheWild, how can I find my house?:)
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19:30 Calinou won hunger games
19:30 rubenwardy does this happen often in inchra.net? http://pasteboard.co/1cmtNRzX.png
19:30 paramat for villages see 'mg mapgen' mod by nore/sfan5, 'villages' mod by sokomine
19:30 paramat left #minetest
19:30 Calinou workworkwork, there's no compass, map and redstone in Minetest by default
19:30 TheWild hm... when we die, we respawn somewhere on the map. Have you been in your bed?
19:31 Calinou rubenwardy, Popularity is known to do that :P
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19:40 Calinou won hunger games again
19:40 Jordach Calinou, http://niceme.me]#
19:40 Jordach Calinou, http://niceme.me
19:40 Jordach ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
19:43 workworkwork TheWild, I don't have a bed
19:44 workworkwork I wish I had remembered coordinates of my house:(
19:45 hmmmm Taoki:  right now, there's absolutely no way to prevent schematic decorations from being placed into eachother unless the schematic is as wide as the base
19:47 kahrl workworkwork: you could use minetestmapper and see if you see something that looks like a house
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19:56 Sokomine Taoki: you really ought to take a look at my mg_villages mod
19:57 Taoki Sokomine: I will. I remember I did long ago, but wasn't sure if it would help since IIRC all buildings are hard-coded (you can't define own villages with own schematics).
19:57 Taoki At least then... not sure if that changed or I remember wrongly
19:57 Sokomine it'll just take soo much documentation that i shy away from actually creating the relevant thread on the forum. plus there are still some errors
19:58 Sokomine Taoki: oh, no. your very own buildings form one village style. and i created two other village types to show how it's done
19:58 Taoki Ah... so it's a library that you can define own villages with? Interesting
19:58 Sokomine guess i really need to pack it all up and put it in a conveninet .zip ... it's all on github but might take some searching in order to get all togehter
19:59 Sokomine you can even define for each village type what the materials of your house will be replaced with
19:59 Taoki No no... I like running Minetest mods from Github best :)
19:59 Taoki Nice
20:00 Taoki It also has... roads? Are they schematics like in my structures mod too? Like a schematic for the I (segment), X (i3-end ntersection), T (3-end intersection).
20:00 Taoki **4-end intersection
20:00 Taoki Since I plan to use schematic roads
20:02 Sokomine ok, then take the following of my mods:  handle_schematics mg_villages cottages (from random_buildings; some of the nicest houses are build using the mod); bell (gives you a church bell for the churches); moresnow (snow covers on roofs); mobf_trader (the seperate mod - not from random_buildings) for traders standing around; village_gambit and village_towntest in order to see how a new village type can be created
20:02 Sokomine no, the roads are just gravel paths. the village generator is that one used by nores mg mod (whith some small modifications)
20:03 * Taoki nods
20:03 Sokomine my orginal, own villages mod had roads based on schematics. i decided to take nores approach because that does work better gameplay related - you get lost less easily if you know that the main road will be the widest, and all side roads one node smaller. it's not as nice but helps immensly when walking around in such a village
20:05 Taoki Would have been nice if they remained an option. But I guess... I could go with that still.
20:05 Sokomine plus, you get something you might not have in your own mod yet: the terrain is adjusted. paramat helped me a lot with that. so the villages are really integrated into the environment
20:05 Taoki Problem is I want something bigger and more complex. I want to generate huge cities, with entire road and highway systems. Sewer systems underground. All houses have an interior, etc. It's possible... but needs very precise and complex code.
20:05 Taoki My structure mod has it. But the way it computes cities has reached a bottleneck
20:06 Sokomine it's possible to change it and place roads that way as well. it's just that orientation really becomes a problem if villages get bigger
20:06 Sokomine in how far?
20:06 Taoki what do you mean?
20:06 Sokomine hm. right now, my houses are pre-built structures. they do have interior, but only because i built it once
20:07 Sokomine mean in which way?
20:07 Taoki The schematics are okay, I have and will make my own. Only issue is the code.
20:07 Taoki Well,
20:07 Taoki For my structures mod, the problem is I need to tell the code a fixed area to generate the city plan in. The city cannot be generated procedurally with chunks, since the position of each building must be pre-known.
20:07 Sokomine cities are more difficult than villages. in a city, you'd expect more structure than "at least 3 of that building; no more than x of that other one" etc
20:08 Taoki I can't make very big cities due to this. Because then the server can freeze for a minute to  compute the location of each schematic
20:09 Sokomine the villages are also pre-generated, but in a reproducable way. i do store generated villages and the replacements choosen - but that has other reasons (people installing other mods, travelling to known villages, ..)
20:09 Sokomine as to that, i have to point you to nore. it's nore's village generator that does the work. and it does it very well. there can be huge villages if you want to
20:10 Sokomine larger than what is convenient for gameplay
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20:11 Sokomine the speed is pretty acceptable. i even tested it on my phone today. it requires more patience than mgv6, but that was to be expected. it's a smartphone after all and not a desktop...
20:12 Sokomine performance of voxelmanip is very fine
20:12 Sokomine just take a look and play a bit with the villages :-) don't forget to install all the mods in order to get all possible village types
20:16 Taoki I think that for what I want, my Structures mod must be the only way, sadly.
20:17 Taoki I want to generate huge complex cities. Don't think anything else will work.
20:19 bobomb joined #minetest
20:20 bobomb What is the process for getting a mod moved from WIP to Mod Releases in the forums?
20:25 TheWild you want them to be generated on the fly (minetest.register_on_generate) or pre-generated?
20:25 Ataron joined #minetest
20:26 CaveJohnson \o
20:28 rubenwardy bobomb, https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=11&amp;t=10418
20:34 TheWild I was thinking: let chunk be a cell for a building. The buildings might be as small as 1x1 or as big as 5x5. Map generator takes chunk's x and z and passes these coordinates through some hash function, which returns a kind of building (with size) and priority. But it should also compute the same for 124 lower-x, lower-z chunks and if there is a building with higher priority and intersecting with this chunk, a part of found
20:34 TheWild building is placed; else first chunk of own building is placed.
20:35 Sokomine Taoki: keep in mind that mt is in effect very small-scale. on my phone, i can look as far as one house. even with a desktop, view range is usually limited (often by chunks not yet loaded)
20:35 Teckla minetest.net/mods links issues?
20:36 Taoki FPS is probably not the problem. More upset about the small world size (31000)
20:36 TheWild 31000 is actually quite long way to go
20:36 Sokomine not only fps :-) just doesn't help if you're standing in front of a mountain and can't see any of it
20:37 Sokomine as far as towns go, using buildings that look like as if they could fit into a town might help to a degree
20:37 Sokomine or do you want towns to be real-world size?
20:40 TheWild also maybe pre-generated schematics and a little file with information which building is placed on given chunk?
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20:43 Sokomine TheWild: i store that information for the villages. a diffrent set of installed mods can cause other buildings and/or materials to be selected. and it's good to know where a village is so that a map can be constructed
20:44 Sokomine what would be really nice is if the villages could be connected with roads. i havn't got that far
20:44 Sokomine they would be roads following either the x- or z-axis. round is difficult in that case
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20:46 TheWild are you storing the information in the grid form?
20:48 Sokomine doesn't have anything to do with grids. it's stored in table format. just take a look at mg_all_villages.data in your world folder if you've got the mod installed
20:49 Sokomine nores code takes care of deciding where a village gets placed, how large it will be and which terrain belongs to which village. it's based on (perlin?) noise
20:49 Sokomine my own single buildings are based on  (at max) one building per mapchunk, similar to what you described. but that's a far less good aproach than the one with noise that nore took
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21:15 TheWild Lua does not have any builtin functions to read/write char, string, int etc. Do we need them?
21:16 TheWild (e.g. saving things in compact way, without unnecessary string parsing)
21:16 est31 read/write where?
21:16 TheWild to file
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21:32 TheWild What is this for? We could take a city somewhere from internet and convert it to Minetest or use it as a base for terrain generator.
21:32 TheWild s**t; bad copy-paste
21:32 TheWild I was thinking: let chunk be a cell for a building. The buildings might be as small as 1x1 or as big as 5x5. Map generator takes chunk's x and z and passes these coordinates through some hash function, which returns a kind of building (with size) and priority. But it should also compute the same for 124 lower-x, lower-z chunks and if there is a building with higher priority and intersecting with this chunk, a part of found
21:32 TheWild building is placed; else first chunk of own building is placed.
21:34 TheWild this also
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21:43 Sokomine TheWild: we tend to use minetest.serialize for saving/restoring data
21:44 Sokomine TheWild: hm, yes. do take a look at mg_villages. it does a lot already
21:48 TheWild if anyone interested: SimCity Classic and SimCity 2000 are games about building own city. The map format for SimCity Classic is known because the game went open-source some time ago (under new name Micropolis). The map format for SimCity 2000 is not known at all, but David Moews made a good progress figuring it out and documenting. What is this for? We could take a city somewhere from internet/create own and convert it to
21:48 TheWild Minetest or use it as a base for terrain generator.
21:49 VanessaE nice idea.
21:50 VanessaE to get adequate detail, houses would need to be about 1 mapblock in size (making a residential zone 3x3 mapblocks)
21:51 VanessaE the world would need to be equipped with homedecor and technic (for the power lines)
21:53 VanessaE I should say house *plots* would need to be
21:53 VanessaE I'd love to see something like that in fact
21:54 Taoki Is there any way to check whether an area has been generated by the mapgen? Even if it hasn't loaded, otherwise I could use the "ignore" node name
21:54 Taoki Like if a given position is part of an area not generated yet
21:55 VanessaE not afaik
21:55 Taoki ok
21:55 VanessaE but there is a way to force-load a blocxk
21:55 VanessaE block*
21:55 VanessaE using vmanip
21:56 VanessaE or I should say, force it to generate
21:56 TheWild about calculations: In SimCity 2000, 1 square = 1 acre, (adding some specific 3x3 building was adding 9 acres to city stats).
21:57 TheWild 1 square = 1 acre = 4046.856 m² ~ 4096 m², that is 64x64 nodes, but this is not necessary to keep this size.
21:58 VanessaE 4046 square meters to an acre, so 64 nodes on a side if you wanted to keep it exct
21:58 VanessaE bah, ninja'd
21:58 VanessaE in a minetest world, one square = 1 mapblock would be much easier to play in
21:58 Teckla yikes, teleporter mod crashes server
21:59 VanessaE hm, you'd need one of those cars mods also
21:59 VanessaE (assuming you would attempt to port Simcity's general game logic over)
22:02 Sokomine VanessaE: not with homedecor :-) i'm afraid that exceeds the capabilities of any current...building...generator. empty dungeons are another matter :-)
22:02 Sokomine leave something for the players ,-)
22:02 VanessaE Sokomine: this is about importing maps
22:02 VanessaE if you're gonna generate a house, you had better furnish it :)
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22:04 Sokomine i'm not sure if we ought to ship the houses furnished. there has to be something for the players to do. in that way, the houses built by nore and taoki may well be better suited than the furnished ones i built for the medieval villages
22:04 Sokomine hi lazyj
22:04 Sokomine of course it depends. walking a real city certainly won't be bad :-) and i did love to play simcity for a long time
22:05 TheWild cars could be OK.
22:05 TheWild the roads in SC2000 can be placed on slopes. Wait, we have slopes in MT too (yay, that win!).
22:06 Sokomine hmm. if you want an endless city...perhaps that's possible as well. but it is tricky. the best way to approach mapgen is to be able to reproduce the exact same mapblock whenever you get the same coordinates
22:07 Sokomine simcity has a far lower resolution than mt as far as buildings go
22:07 TheWild Sokomine: or maybe teleport the player when "overflow" is reached
22:07 Sokomine overflow?
22:08 Sokomine guess american towns with their square city grid would be easier to do than other types of cities...
22:09 TheWild I said "overflow" about repeating city - say city is 200x200 mapblocks, but it is saved as 400x400 mapblocks and a margin of 20 mapblocks. When player goes from 179 to 180, it is silently teleported to -220.
22:09 Sokomine it's not impossible to build such a world, not even automaticly. it's just...if you want it nicely done (with decorations!), you do need players to build those houses at least once
22:10 Sokomine hm, what would that be good for, thewild? there might be just some "wild" landscape around the city
22:10 Sokomine maybe you'll like pripyat. there's sometimes a server running which has a reconstruction of that. it looks very town-like (abandomed town)
22:10 Sokomine even that amusement park sometimes seen on photos is there
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22:11 TheWild crap, my idea does not work very well for multiple players on it
22:11 TheWild ^ that was about repeating ciy
22:12 Sokomine the villages do work pretty well with a handful of buildings. for towns, you'll want a lot more pre-built houses
22:12 Sokomine players would get lost pretty soon....
22:15 TheWild Sokomine, I think there is no need to have pre-generated buildings - a good building generator could solve the problem.
22:16 TheWild e.g. generate some random simple shape (e.g. "L"), get random material, create walls, get a good placement for windows, create windows, calculate correct position of roof...
22:21 LazyJ A belated, "Howdy", Sokomine ;)
22:22 Sokomine TheWild: trouble is: you're talking about something that exceeds the capacity of most players. it can be done to a degree, yes...paramat's working on something like this to a degree. it's just that what you have in mind is anything but trivial
22:23 Sokomine sadly, a lot of human players will just construct ugly cobble boxes and claim those to be houses :-( there's a lot more to building well...
22:24 TheWild I'm not sure what you meant. You want players to create their buildings and use them in generator?
22:27 Sokomine i'm trying to say that human players sometimes have difficulty to producte good buildings - especially in large quantity. if you try to automatize architecture, there'll be limits
22:28 Teckla Is anyone else here having trouble with the links on this page?  http://www.minetest.net/mods
22:28 TheWild website seems ok, but Avast is complaining because of http://stats.inchra.net/piwik.php?idsite=1
22:29 Sokomine Teckla: hm, you're right. the links seem to be broken. might be due to a recent change/movement of the forum
22:29 TheWild ^ right
22:29 Teckla Sokomine: Ah, I bet that's it, thanks  :)
22:29 Sokomine Teckla: use this to find mods: http://nimg.pf-control.de/MTstuff/modSearch.php
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22:30 Teckla Sokomine: That works like a charm, thank you!
22:31 Sokomine Teckla: it was written by krock. i use that as well whenever i want to search for a mod. forum search doesn't work very well in that regard
22:35 TheWild Sokomine: "there'll be limits" <- I still didn't get that
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22:50 paramat ugh you have got me wanting to code a city generator
22:50 est31 lol
22:51 VanessaE paramat: well you ARE the mapgen god around here ;)
22:51 VanessaE and simcity's map format apparently is well-documented now.............
22:52 paramat see https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=11&amp;t=9577 instead of on-generated, splitting generation into small elements generated by abms on spawner nodes splits server lag into smaller durations
22:55 paramat this has a stairwell branching into corridors branching into flats. like this roads could branch and grow organically, maybe with landscaping stages too
22:55 paramat it's fun to watch the structure generate around you a few seconds after mapgen
22:56 paramat catacomb mod works this way too https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=11&amp;t=9896
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23:09 OldCoder How do I load an MTS scheme?
23:09 OldCoder nvm
23:12 Sokomine theTroy: constructing something in mt may well be art sometimes. many players are not very advanced. generating really good structures automaticly is therefore something that may not be easy
23:13 Sokomine such a mapgen may have its own art, but...there are limits. most of it will not be...good...
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23:29 Taoki Anyone know what the function is to un-generate an area? So you specify two corners, and anything in between them is erased from the database, letting on_generate create them again
23:29 Taoki I know it's possible, saw someone do it on the forum
23:29 kahrl /deleteblocks, iirc
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23:30 Taoki Ah. It's only a command... no function to do it from Lua?
23:30 est31 there is
23:30 kahrl Taoki: the command handler has to call some function :P
23:30 est31 minetest.delete_area
23:30 Taoki Thanks!
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23:31 Taoki So if I delete_area between two corners, the chunks there are completely remove, and on_generate will run fresh when they are explored again?
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23:31 est31 there are no chunks
23:31 Taoki Oh
23:32 est31 only mapblocks
23:32 Taoki I thought on_generate runs per chunk
23:32 Taoki Ah yes
23:32 Taoki I confuse the two :P
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23:35 kahrl a chunk is a cube of c*c*c mapblocks, where c = chunksize = by default 5
23:35 Taoki Does minetest.delete_area also work for huge areas at once? Like 1000 blocks in both X and Z?
23:35 Taoki Or even 10000
23:35 kahrl so a cube of 80x80x80 nodes
23:36 est31 Taoki, yes it works
23:36 Taoki ok :)
23:36 est31 but its prone to crashing
23:36 est31 and slow
23:36 est31 so watch out :)
23:36 Taoki Yeah, the slow part is the problem
23:37 Taoki I'll be using it in a mod... where I might delete over huge distances like -X = -1000 and +X = 1000, same for other axes. Wouldn't want that to freeze the server for more than a few seconds
23:42 kahrl perhaps an API that deletes the whole map would work for you and might be faster
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23:42 air how do I make the hotbar smaller in 0.4.12?
23:46 Sokomine kahrl: don't forget the shell around it where cavegen happily eats through existing neighbouring mapchunks. in effect, it's usually 111x111x111, though the 80x80x80 are the core
23:46 Sokomine taoki: why do you want to delete so much?
23:47 Taoki Sokomine: To slowly generate large cities with on_generate, as placing all buildings at once is very slow.
23:47 Taoki Although it's better to use virtual boxes, and activate a city the moment the first one was "touched" by an on_generate function
23:48 Teckla paramat: Your auto-growing structure mod is awesome, thanks for making it  :)
23:48 Teckla (My daughter is currently going bananas over it...)
23:48 paramat cool
23:49 kahrl Taoki: instead of triggering on_generate via delete_area, couldn't you directly create a vmanip for that area and modify it
23:49 Taoki Do realize that in my craze, I'm aiming to procedurally generate cities as large as 1000 x 1000 nodes... pretty much the size of small cities in real life. Because I know that's possible and awesome.
23:49 Taoki kahrl: It is slow. I must also spawn multiple schematics in it.
23:49 kahrl still faster than delete_area, though :P
23:50 Taoki :)
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23:50 kahrl but yeah anything of that scale will probably be doomed to be slow :/
23:50 Sokomine Taoki: don't use place_schematic for it. there are some strange interaction effects. using voxelmanip in on_generated works far better
23:50 Taoki Heh... since a block is 1m, this basically means I'm going to try generating cities that are one kilometer long in the x and z axes.
23:50 Taoki Sokomine: Can voxelmanip place schematics directly?
23:51 Sokomine Taoki: no. but my handle_schematics mod comes with functions to read a schematic and place it using voxelmanip
23:51 Taoki Nice.
23:51 Taoki I'll likely figure out a way. It's mostly finding a logical solution that's been a problem ^^
23:51 Sokomine it's necessary. turned out to be the safest way to avoid cavegen griefing or mudflow interfering with the town
23:52 Sokomine but then, if your town is that large, you can probably settle for a flat mapgen
23:53 Teckla paramat: Does it stop growing ... ?  haha
23:54 paramat Sokomine, soon i will prepare a mtgame pull to correct 'is ground content' for all nodes, please could you then review it?
23:54 Sokomine Taoki: do you have your city generator as such already finished, or are you still planning on that one?
23:54 paramat teckla which mod?
23:54 Sokomine paramat: that'd be nice! i think it's mostly wood that remains a problem (the planks type, not the tree one)
23:54 paramat yeah
23:54 Sokomine rails, as well
23:55 Teckla paramat: Generative architecture
23:55 Sokomine Taoki: what are your plans regarding height anyway? will you use flat terrain?
23:55 paramat yes it will reach a certain height and stop
23:56 Teckla paramat: excellent thanks
23:56 Taoki Sokomine: Not sure. That is very very tricky.
23:57 paramat walk all the corridors (or fly near all the corridors) to generate all the flats, it all appears around you as you explore
23:57 Taoki It's a great logical problem :)

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