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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-06-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:08 bobomb anybody ever seen minetest.deserialize drop sub-tables but not all of them?
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00:50 simon1982 Hello all! I'm trying to run the tutorial (tutorial 1.8.0/minetest 0.4.9/Linux Mint 17), and when I press 'Play" I am getting the error "ERROR: /home/simon/.minetest/games/tutor​ial/mods/default/plauer.lua:146: attempt to call method 'set local animation' (a nil value)". Might someone please advise me how to fix the issue?
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02:14 kahrl simon1982: 0.4.9 is very old and probably lacks some features required by the tutorial
02:18 simon1982 I'm overdue for a Mint upgrade anyway. Thanks!
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02:38 technomancy so would you say your OS isn't in...
02:38 technomancy Mint condition
02:38 technomancy ( •_•) ( -_-)~⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)>
02:41 LandMine technomancy i think the shades go before the "mint condition" statement
02:42 technomancy dangit
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03:08 * Pilcrow is encoding video, playing pokemon, watching a stargate rerun and chatting in irc. Hooray for multitasking! :P
03:09 LandMine Pilcrow what pokemon game are you playing?
03:10 Pilcrow FireRed, in an emulator, slightly hacked.  :P
03:11 Pilcrow (although I DO own the actual FireRed cartridge as well)
03:11 LandMine nice, i used to play that all the time on my phone with the myboy emulator
03:11 Pilcrow yup, I'm using RetroArch on my nVidia Shield.  :)
03:12 LandMine i dont remember what i was using but you can also play fire red multiplayer online
03:12 LandMine i played it like 1 week i got owned so i was like "forget this"
03:14 Pilcrow yeah, I think that's possible in retroarch too, but I've never used the online features.
03:16 Pilcrow specifically, I'm using a Shield Portable.
03:16 Pilcrow this: http://i.imgur.com/RHT8BU3.jpg
03:17 LandMine sorry i live in Mexico we have ps2 and below here
03:17 Pilcrow bought it new and couldn't be happier with it. a portable Android console with over 2x the capabilities of a sony vita.  :3
03:17 LandMine hahaha
03:17 LandMine jk
03:17 LandMine i have never seen that thing you just posted a picture of
03:18 Pilcrow they didn't sell it for very long. the marketing was all wrong, so no one bought it...
03:22 LandMine Pilcrow this is what i was talking about https://pokemmo.eu/
03:22 LandMine its just for pc though
03:24 Pilcrow Ah! yes, there are a few different things like that. I haven't used that one, but I've used this one before and it works well: http://pokemonshowdown.com/
03:25 Pilcrow ^ that's _just_ battles though
03:26 LandMine looks interesting
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03:29 Pilcrow it's not bad. here's a video of it in action (not by me): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rG3JhkJ19k
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03:34 Pilcrow !seen Pilcrow
03:34 MinetestBot Pilcrow: pilcrow was last seen at 2015-05-18 03:24:19 UTC on #minetest
03:35 Pilcrow heh. bot's still broken. not as bad now as before, but I've been on plenty of times since may 18th...  :P
03:35 Pilcrow ~seen Pilcrow
03:35 ShadowBot Pilcrow: I saw Pilcrow in #minetest 16 seconds ago saying "heh. bot's still broken. not as bad now as before, but I've been on plenty of times since may 18th...  :P"
03:35 Pilcrow heh. looks like the other one works fine, lol.
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03:39 Pilcrow hey technomancy, you around?
03:43 technomancy Pilcrow: for a bit
03:43 technomancy what's up?
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03:45 Pilcrow hi! I poked around with the idea of reloading a mod's init.lua on the fly, but haven't applied it to your code yet. had to use a couple of hacky workarounds to get it working, so I'm not quite happy with it yet. I've made a proof-of-concept here though: https://github.com/Pilcrow182/reload
03:46 technomancy Pilcrow: what kind of workarounds?
03:46 technomancy I actually created a reload script in the OS that should be able to both refresh the in-OS filesystem as well as reloading the OS code, but I haven't tested it much
03:48 technomancy I'm actually most interested in sending code directly from Emacs to the running minetest instance, but I figured this would be a good start
03:51 Pilcrow oh, I was talking about what we discussed the night before last, where you wanted to reload the lua files without restarting the server? well, the simple idea was to wrap item/node registry in a check of minetest.registered_nodes, but that would make it impossible to override existing nodes. for the sake of reusability and future-proofing, I made my own 'registered items' table in my code.
03:51 technomancy oh right; the idempotency part specifically
03:51 technomancy cool
03:53 est31 registering nodes dynamically requires deep architecture changes
03:54 est31 and IMO its not worth those
03:55 Pilcrow est31: we're talking about skipping node registery if the server has already reloaded the mod. did you look at my little example?
03:56 Pilcrow actually, skipping mod registry on a reload of the .lua file, if the file has already been loaded once.
03:56 technomancy yeah, separating out the node registration from the rest of the logic is worth doing just for making reloads simpler too
03:58 Pilcrow very true technomancy. better to put the node registration into its own file than work on a crazy wrapper anyway  :P
03:58 technomancy well, I mean if we can get it working for both, that's great; it's just that if it becomes too much of a mess, we have a workaround =)
04:00 technomancy I need to start hooking up servers to other digiline-savvy nodes
04:01 Pilcrow we could also use a decent 'prettyprint' replacement for minetest.(de)serialize when running your code from the cli...  :P
04:01 technomancy yeah, that'd be nice too
04:04 technomancy speaking of reloading, is there a way to do something like x = x or {} for top-level module tables without causing a warning when you run it for the first time that x is undefined?
04:05 technomancy aha, maybe _G["x"]
04:05 Pilcrow I'm thinking that prettyprint thing might better for glob support too (which is much harder than I initially thought); string splitting/matching/manipulation is infinitely easier than looping and scanning through tables...  :P
04:08 technomancy I feel like if you dump everything into a string it would be really hard to avoid false positives
04:10 Pilcrow I guess so. I'm just not as good at tables as I thought. need to figure out how to recurse through them..
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04:13 Pilcrow hello Jordach  :)
04:23 technomancy can someone point me to an example of a door controlled by digilines?
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05:01 exio4 .tell Calinou I just wrote a quick "multithreaded" version of your silly benchmark, if it matters
05:01 exio4 !tell Calinou I just wrote a quick "multithreaded" version of your silly benchmark, if it matters
05:01 MinetestBot exio4: I'll pass that on when Calinou is around
05:01 exio4 !tell Calinou it's still bottlenecked by stdio, but.. whatever
05:01 MinetestBot exio4: I'll pass that on when Calinou is around
05:01 exio4 oh wait, actually..
05:03 exio4 10 millon primes generated naively by using a small threadpool + intmap, GC time still was high but expected
05:03 exio4 only 83% productivity
05:06 * cheapie is working on a new (MT) traffic light control system
05:06 cheapie http://cheapiesystems.com/media/ima​ges/screenshot_20150608_000428.png
05:06 cheapie http://cheapiesystems.com/media/ima​ges/screenshot_20150608_000451.png
05:07 Pilcrow182 technomancy: I'm not sure what you mean by a door controlled by digilines.
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05:10 technomancy Pilcrow182: well, I want to send a digilines signal to open/close doors
05:10 cheapie technomancy: You could always use an LuaC right at the door.
05:10 technomancy I guess I need to study how regular doors work first; it's more complex than I thought
05:10 technomancy cheapie: I need to design a new node for my doors anyway for visual reasons
05:12 technomancy it looks like >1 sized nodes are just an illusion; in reality it's two nodes that are programmed to act as one?
05:14 Pilcrow182 well, nodes <can> be programmed with greater sizes, but it causes other problems that way.
05:14 * technomancy nods
05:14 exio4 :O it's a wild pi
05:14 exio4 how is it going
05:14 exio4 Pilcrow182*
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05:16 Pilcrow182 technomancy: for example, with a door that's programmed as a single two-high node, if a falling node (sand, etc.) is updated while above the door, it'll fall halfway through the door and get stuck, never changing back from an entity to a node...
05:16 Pilcrow182 hello exio4. changed my nick so I could register it; aparently someone else had taken Pilcrow, officially...
05:17 exio4 that's rude
05:18 exio4 Pilcrow182: "Pilcrow" is expired
05:18 Pilcrow182 technomancy: in other words, collision detection is kind of buggy with nodes > 1x1x1
05:18 exio4 you can /nick to it, and request in #freenode
05:22 Pilcrow182 eh, I'm already registered with this one now. wanted to log into a moderated channel and needed +V priviledge, which has now been granted for Pilcrow182. too much messing around to pm people and get granted the priviledge again with a different nick. I'm recognisable either way, lol
05:26 Pilcrow182 technomancy: also, you could probably make a digiline-compatable door, but I think it may be easier to use a luacontroller to send the door a mesecons signal, since mesecons already opens doors IIRC...
05:27 * Pilcrow182 has done the above with pistons instead of doors many times
05:34 * Pilcrow182 is starting to feel that everyone but him is busy tonight... :P
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05:34 Pilcrow182 (or should that be 'everyone but he'?)
05:37 exio4 Pilcrow182: no
05:37 exio4 I am not busy, I am improving this code
05:38 Pilcrow182 heh. I assume you mean the benchmarking thing again?
05:40 exio4 yeah
05:40 exio4 I got an 17x improvement by just avoiding stdio
05:40 exio4 dat flawed benchmark
05:44 Pilcrow182 heh
05:44 exio4 $ time ./primes +RTS -s
05:44 exio4 11500001
05:45 exio4 it's using multiple threads :D
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05:45 Pilcrow182 lol, it seems stdio is a bottleneck no matter what you do with it...
05:46 exio4 added one moar thread, now it's at 1.2kM
05:46 exio4 12049997
05:47 exio4 mfw I designed this such that the ordering is "kept" yet I throw away info..
05:47 Pilcrow182 throw away what info?
05:51 exio4 Pilcrow182: the ordering
05:51 Pilcrow182 oh
05:51 Pilcrow182 heh
05:51 Pilcrow182 that seems like a rather odd oversight...  :P
05:53 exio4 http://dpaste.com/1X91XGK Pilcrow182
05:54 exio4 mvars are lovely
05:56 exio4 http://dpaste.com/1AENYAJ
05:56 exio4 new link
05:56 exio4 forgot syntax highlighting now >.> <.<
05:56 exio4 whatevere
05:56 * Pilcrow182 still has a hard time wrapping his head around Haskell
05:57 exio4 Pilcrow182: I think I wrote relatively imperative code there though
05:58 exio4 http://exio4.xyz/~exio4/primes.html
05:58 Pilcrow182 yes, it's fairly understandable but still gives me a headache lol
05:59 exio4 why that headache then :p
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06:03 Pilcrow182 no reason really. just my brain hanging up on keywords for a second before it realizes I don't really need to know them to understand the calculations involved, lol
06:04 exio4 which keywords?
06:07 exio4 good night though
06:07 exio4 it's really late, shouldn't be here
06:07 Pilcrow182 ah, alright. I'm going to bed soon too; it's fairly late here as well. good night, exio4
06:14 Pilcrow182 well, I should get to bed. I've been awake for about 19 hours now, lol
06:14 Pilcrow182 goodnight, all.  o/
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09:16 Megaf Hi all,
09:16 Megaf MegafServer/worlds/world/map.sqlite
09:16 Megaf 834737664  25%   57.69MB/s    0:00:42
09:16 Megaf This is backing up from my server in London to my house in Brazil
09:16 Megaf using rsync
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09:29 JamesTait Good morning all; happy Monday, and happy Upsy Daisy Day! 😃
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09:39 Megaf_ [10:36] <-- Megaf (~Megaf@unaffiliated/megaf) has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
09:39 Megaf_ I wonder how that happens
09:39 Megaf_ I see myself timing out
09:39 Megaf_ [10:34] --> Megaf_ (~Megaf@unaffiliated/megaf) has joined #minetest
09:41 RealBadAngel its a kind of magic ;)
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11:24 _Raiz Test.
11:24 _Raiz Can anyone hear me?
11:25 _Raiz Err!
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11:30 RealBadAngel whats up?
11:30 _Raiz Finally!
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12:01 technomancy has anyone built any higher-level protocols on top of digilines?
12:02 technomancy I'm thinking it would be nice to have something a bit higher-level, more analogous to HTTP or IP instead of digilines' ethernet-like protocol
12:02 Calinou http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/intr​oducing-antimony-free-graph-based-cad-system
12:03 technomancy sending {target="(1,10,17)", source="(19, 10, 39)", method="open"}
12:04 technomancy plus allowing nodes to send out pings over digilines to get responses, either from a specific address or to a broadcast ping
12:05 technomancy does it make sense to use minetest positions as addresses analogous to IPs for such a protocol?
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12:42 Megaf technomancy: would you be able of doing that?
12:42 technomancy Megaf: thinking about it, yeah
12:42 AndroidKris wow, I forgot to sign out last night.lol
12:43 Megaf AndroidKris: signout from where?
12:43 Megaf I do never sign out from IRC, lol
12:43 AndroidKris xchat
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12:43 Megaf technomancy: go for it then
12:43 Megaf :P
12:44 Megaf hm, I'm not sure if I have digilines active on my server
12:44 Megaf !server Megaf
12:44 MinetestBot Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 1/11, 0/1 | Version: 0.4.12-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 8ms
12:45 technomancy Megaf: mostly wondering if anyone else would find this useful or have input on the design
12:55 DusXMT I wonder, what do people find enjoyable about this game? What is your favorite way of playing? What kinds of things do you like doing? (This is not a troll post, just a curious person who plays a game every now and then)
12:56 Megaf DusXMT: well, I do like exploring the world and caves, mining and building structures, houses and cities
12:59 technomancy DusXMT: to me writing the mods is more fun than playing ever was =)
13:00 Megaf yep, I have a Minetest server, and to manage nad administrate it for me is a lot of fun
13:00 Megaf I write some mods for my server too
13:00 Calinou usually admining is very boring :P
13:00 Megaf like the mighty Leprechaun Tools
13:01 DusXMT Thanks for your opinions guys :)
13:01 Calinou the sum of the age of all players on a server is often equal to the age of the administrator
13:01 Calinou :P
13:01 DusXMT Hehe
13:01 Megaf Calinou: not on my server, half is 35+
13:01 DusXMT However, age != maturity
13:02 Megaf yep, one of my admins is 12 years old, she is very mature for her age
13:02 kilbith maturity = experience % age
13:03 Megaf I'm afraid my server is not totally friendly with annoying children
13:04 ThatGraemeGuy goodness, I guess Cryterion must be 100+
13:04 ThatGraemeGuy not bad going
13:04 Megaf lol
13:05 Megaf who else here has a first generation Raspberry Pi Model B?
13:05 technomancy Megaf: I do
13:05 * Calinou has no raspi
13:05 Megaf I'm compiling the Go lang on it right now
13:05 Calinou no packages?
13:05 Megaf I think it will take about 40 minutes
13:05 Calinou anyway, good, sounds like you want to compete with me in benchmarks
13:05 Megaf Calinou: very old packages
13:06 Calinou raspi vs i7-2600K :D
13:06 Megaf Calinou: the Raspi has NEON
13:06 Calinou but few programs use NEON, I think...
13:06 Megaf And don't ask me what the heck that is
13:06 Calinou an instruction set
13:06 Calinou equivalent of SSE for x86 IIRC
13:06 DusXMT Megaf: What OS? If you're running Debian Wheezy, then it's a better time than ever to switch to jessie (unless you dislike systemd, like me); wheezy's getting pretty old now, so some packages may be "very old"
13:07 Megaf I know that Raspbian ARMv6 with NEON running on the Raspberry 2 is MUCH quicker to compile stuff than Debian ARMv7 running on the Raspberry 2
13:07 Calinou I run stretch :)
13:07 Calinou there's a keyboard layout issue on Xfce but all else is fine
13:07 Calinou I have Go 1.4.2, the latest version
13:07 Megaf Installed Go for linux/arm in /home/git/go
13:07 Megaf Installed commands in /home/git/go/bin
13:07 Megaf o/
13:08 Calinou meh, just use /usr/local
13:08 Calinou it's system-wide and safe to use
13:08 Calinou I installed Godot that way
13:08 Calinou sudo cp godot.x11.tools.64 /usr/local/bin/godot
13:08 Megaf Calinou: I will be running only one thing writen in Go
13:09 Calinou run http://dl.hugo.pro/benchmarks/
13:09 * est31 feels uncomfortable with /usr/local
13:09 est31 its better to have the binaries close to source
13:09 Calinou Go's the fastest here, although I ran that before the upgrade to Debian 9
13:09 * DusXMT usually puts cross-compilers into /opt/name_of_platform; and everything else to /usr/local
13:10 Megaf Calinou: why you no #go-nuts ?
13:12 s-l-teichmann Calinou: have you tried the latest multi-thread version? https://bitbucket.org/s_l_​teichmann/concurrentprime I've also documented a few runs on 4 different systems.
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13:19 technomancy Megaf: https://github.com/technomancy/calandr​ia/blob/master/mods/diginet/readme.md
13:20 Megaf technomancy: a player on my server will love that
13:21 Megaf he use Lua controllers for everything
13:21 Megaf Calinou: I'm not running all those benchmarks
13:22 technomancy Megaf: I'm writing a mod that has servers with a full virtualized Lua OS
13:22 technomancy I realized this would be necessary to make the servers useful and allow them to talk to other nodes in a way that isn't tedious
13:23 Megaf technomancy: what about security issues?
13:24 Megaf on lua microcontrollers lua loop is disabled for example
13:24 Megaf because it can make the cpu busy
13:24 technomancy Megaf: I have some ideas about this, but my mod is definitely not ready for public servers
13:25 Megaf I'd like an ahead of time compiler for Lua
13:25 technomancy Megaf: the dronetest mod has a mechanism for interrupting coroutines periodically if they run too long
13:25 Megaf and run my mods on that
13:25 technomancy not having the ability to run code on the fly would really kill the fun for this mod
13:25 est31 Megaf, why to hide your source code?
13:26 Megaf est31: I just want more performance
13:26 technomancy Megaf: if you want more performance use luajit
13:26 technomancy AOT compilation isn't going to be able to outperform that
13:26 Megaf we do all use LuaJIT already
13:26 technomancy AOT would only speed up boot times
13:27 Megaf right
13:27 Megaf and if we actually had all .lua files compiled into let's say .mod binaries?
13:27 Megaf If that's even possible
13:28 est31 according to Calinou's benchmark, luajit is actually fast
13:28 technomancy because luajit performs its compilations at runtime it's able to apply a lot smarter optimizations than an up-front compiler would
13:28 technomancy AOT compilation means a lot more guesswork
13:29 est31 or you would need to compile to you know windows, linux, windows 32 windows 64, and all combinations with different processor features turned off and on
13:29 technomancy even the JVM gets all its performance boost from the hotspot JIT; no one bothers in the slightest with the performance of the initially-compiled bytecode
13:29 est31 and pack that into the .mod file
13:29 Megaf right, you seem to know what you are saying, I don't know what I'm saying
13:30 Megaf Ok, I'm convinced
13:34 Megaf meh Go is fast
13:35 Megaf it runs very nicely on my Raspberry Pi
13:47 technomancy https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=47&amp;t=12517
13:48 technomancy see if anyone pipes up
13:52 Calinou Megaf, it looks like Rust wants Go's spot though :P
13:52 Calinou Go is no longer really trendy
13:52 Calinou and Rust isn't necessarily faster than Go
13:52 Calinou and it's probably a tad lower level
13:54 technomancy it's almost as if considerations other than pure numerical performance are more important when choosing a language =)
13:55 technomancy like for instance how many upvotes blog posts about it get on reddit
13:56 Calinou you can't really call Rust a successor of C when it can be 25 % slower
13:56 Calinou ehm, C++
13:56 Calinou (not that you were calling it one)
13:56 technomancy "can be 25% slower" anything is possible if you believe in yourself
13:56 Calinou and you can't call Java crap performance-wise if you say Rust is awesome
13:56 est31 rust is compiled using llvm, which also powers c
13:56 technomancy C++ can be 25% slower than C
13:56 est31 or c++
13:57 technomancy people who say java is slow are idiots
13:58 technomancy java is a memory hog and starts up slowly, and java programmers like to use loads of frameworks that are slow
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13:59 technomancy (I happen to hate the java programming language FWIW; it's tedious and awkward, but not slow.)
14:01 Teckla Go has great start up time but I was led to believe it does not perform all that well, slower on average than Java and such, despite using much less memory, etc.
14:01 Teckla Although I am also given to understand there is still a lot of optimization opportunities  :)
14:01 technomancy Go's semantics are so poor I can't be arsed to look into its performance.
14:09 * Teckla is not so wild about Go's syntax
14:11 technomancy "Complaining about whitespace in python only shows your ignorance. There are so many other more important things to complain about." =)
14:11 technomancy (I don't actually know much about python fwiw but lua seems a much nicer design.)
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14:14 hoodedice HI guys
14:14 hoodedice time for another rant!
14:14 hoodedice why the fuck can I not print my images using the default image viewer in xubuntu =D
14:14 est31 technomancy, the indentation bullshit in python is crap
14:15 est31 having terminating }s help reading code
14:15 est31 immensely
14:15 hoodedice It is a fucking vanilla piece of shit! It should be able to like, do basic shit like fucking printing ^.^
14:15 technomancy est31: oh yes obviously
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14:15 DusXMT Garth: Is there not an option?
14:15 est31 hoodedice, there you are with X ubuntu
14:15 technomancy but that's peanuts compared to the weird OO model or the whole statements vs expressions nonsense
14:15 est31 try K ubuntu :)
14:15 DusXMT Garth: sorry, bad autocomplete
14:16 hoodedice est, wrote some pseudocode for a friend yesterday to help him with his homework
14:16 hoodedice was a recursive function, I wrote it in python style
14:16 DusXMT hoodedice: Is there not an option for it? (In ristretto, iirc) Or does it not show your printer?
14:17 hoodedice well, he didn't understand the indents (he doesn't indent his java properly, anyway) so he put an ending brace just after the if statement that prevents stack overflows
14:17 hoodedice Dus, no, there is no option
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14:18 hoodedice which is fucking surprising XD
14:19 DusXMT Not really, but I guess you could always install another one (I think Eye of Gnome, or Eye of Mate if you prefer, has direct printing support), but then you're installing gnome/mate libraries...
14:19 hoodedice Gonna go bug #xubuntu
14:20 DusXMT hoodedice: or rather the XFCE people; xubuntu merely just distribute it
14:20 hoodedice now, there is a reason I'm bugging them
14:20 hoodedice because gimp does the job perfectly
14:20 SopaXT joined #minetest
14:20 hoodedice but think about end user experience. Would you want to open up gimp just for a printout?!
14:21 * DusXMT is used to making PDFs and transferring them over SFTP for printing :D
14:22 hoodedice <hoodedice> Hello. I want to print an image without installing another image viewer, and without using firefox, because firefox puts these headers that I don't want on my image and without using an image manipulation program, because I'm an end user, and end users are stupid.
14:25 * hoodedice is gonna pasta the #xubuntu reactions in ##minetestbot
14:25 DusXMT hoodedice: Perhaps this is relevant: "Any additional features, like importing images from a digital camera (using libgphoto2) or printing images to paper could probably be added through a plugin interface or something. Keeping the basic application simple while allowing individual users to add features they like. If, when and how this is going to be implemented is still a question though ;)."
14:25 hoodedice ah, that reminds me of a certain other open source project...
14:26 hoodedice its something about uh making your own world or something
14:26 hoodedice starts with an m and ends with inetest
14:26 DusXMT So I guess the xubuntu people _might_ want to write a printing plugin, since the tools/interfaces are right there.
14:27 DusXMT Wait, I've read it wrong, I thought there was a plugin interface, that was just a suggestion... *facedesk*
14:30 MinetestBot [git] tenplus1 -> minetest/minetest_game: word-wrap book text 8b4a92e http://git.io/vIBIK (2015-06-08T16:29:44+02:00)
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15:01 nolsen https://meldy.hira.io/Zerobin/?7d5e7985f9f446f​1#XhtwLCwFm7i4T8J1BmdkyXwECwfb7Qo/Nq+qVeBb7Jw=
15:04 exio4 Calinou: http://exio4.xyz/~exio4/primes.html
15:08 exio4 Calinou: (if you run it with the `primes` command, it'll generate primes slowly the old way you like, using multiple cores and a small (or should be small, it'll generate 11 millon primes in 10 seconds, yet the bottleneck is going to be the standard output) cache
15:13 exio4 technomancy: the layout rule is annoying on a imperative language
15:13 exio4 technomancy: it's a bit different in functional languages imo
15:15 technomancy exio4: layout rule?
15:15 technomancy oh, the whitespace stuff?
15:15 exio4 yes
15:15 technomancy mostly it bothers be because it makes it so easy to screw up merge conflicts
15:15 exio4 no, I mean, in an imperative language, functions don't tend to be 3-4 lines
15:16 technomancy plus python 2 let you mix tabs and spaces, so you could have two lines that *looked* like they were indented the same, but were secretly different
15:16 exio4 they tend to be relatively long (compared to the FP approach where functions are EVERYTHING)
15:16 technomancy but I heard they fixed that
15:16 exio4 anyway, Haskell lets you disable the layout rule using {} and ;
15:17 technomancy exio4: like I said, it's a superficial complaint; semantics are much more important
15:17 exio4 let { x = 2 ; f w = w+x ; y = f 42 } in do { putStrLn "What's your name?"; x <- getLine ; putStrLn ("hi " ++ x); }
15:17 exio4 that is valid code ^
15:17 technomancy exio4: did you see my proposal for a higher-level protocol layered on top of digilines?
15:18 exio4 I'll look at it
15:18 exio4 looks like a cool approach
15:18 technomancy I'm now banging out some POC nodes that would use it
15:18 technomancy starting with interaction between a terminal and a server, then going to add a door into the mix
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15:25 nolsen Did anyone see that error log I pasted?
15:26 est31 nolsen, what did you do?
15:26 Calinou exio4, nice colored code, although there are margins on borders :P
15:26 Calinou and the color scheme is quite bad (too colourful, too much contrast)
15:26 Calinou you're better off leaving code formatting to client add-ons, except when embedding in a page
15:26 nolsen hold on, my GPU is being lazy.
15:27 nolsen and having Minetest hang itself.
15:27 exio4 Calinou: I just exported what Kate shows :P
15:27 exio4 Calinou: and yeah, dem borders
15:27 nolsen lol Minetest is hung
15:27 nolsen hunged*
15:27 exio4 Calinou: and I like colorz! right!
15:28 exio4 Calinou: anyway, run it, it should use N threads, N-1 workers, the last one will be for printing / handling that shit
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15:29 VanessaE good morning
15:29 nolsen Hmm, Trying to play minetest on the vm, but the aiming goes crazy.
15:30 Calinou this is common in VMs, try disabling mouse integration
15:30 nolsen done.
15:30 nolsen erm already done.
15:31 nolsen though now I can't use my mouse in minetest.
15:31 nolsen It disapears when moving it to it.
15:31 nolsen I can do things inside the application, but it's invisible.
15:31 exio4 you shouldn't see it
15:31 nolsen .
15:31 exio4 only the crosshair
15:31 nolsen No, not that.
15:31 nolsen In main menu
15:32 CWz goodmonring VanessaE
15:33 technomancy how is it that digilines is able to intercept the digilines field passed to minetest.register_node?
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15:36 exio4 Calinou: have you run it?
15:36 Calinou nope
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15:43 TheWild yesterday I was talking about that lighting stuff and I brought an idea of dividing squares into 4 triangles etc. which maybe fixes the odd hexagon pattern (especially visible on high gamma set), but definitely not the problem of light passing through corners, est31 already pointed it out.
15:43 TheWild So, I'll ask how much vertices we are defining per cube?
15:44 TheWild 8, because it's just natural, we have seen so many cubes in our lifes and we know a single cube has 8 vertices.
15:44 TheWild or 24, because 6 faces × 4 corners - that's actually another story
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15:55 Calinou can you make a screenshot of hexagon pattern?
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15:59 TheWild Calinou, http://pasteboard.co/13nHkoOj.png
16:02 Calinou this is caused by poor light table
16:02 Calinou ie. the color value assigned to a light data value
16:03 Calinou try changing your light table to something that makes sense, or even a linear table (increments of 17) and you'll see the difference.
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16:16 TheWild it would be easy if anything made in C/C++ could compile on this system. Should I try Linux?
16:17 Jordach joined #minetest
16:18 est31 TheWild, for compilation, linux is usually easier than windows
16:18 est31 but what I've meant was more along: I think that in real life, light passes through "hard" corners too
16:19 est31 imagine putting two carton boxes into the arrangement
16:19 Calinou usually? always :P
16:19 est31 hehe
16:20 est31 also, Calinou firefox died for me today
16:20 est31 I've found out what they did with the 38.0.5 release
16:20 Calinou I switched to Chromium ~1 week ago
16:20 est31 horrible
16:20 Calinou (-:
16:20 est31 I'll switch too, dunno to where
16:20 Calinou it's the only reasonable alternative until we get a proper Firefox fork
16:20 Calinou uBrowse anyone?
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16:21 TheWild eventually you can use Internet Explorer
16:21 TheWild (somebody will smash my face)
16:21 _Raiz I'll do!
16:21 _Raiz xD
16:21 sfan5 <est31> I'll switch too, dunno to where
16:22 sfan5 chromium! chromium! chromium! chromium!
16:22 _Raiz Iceweasel here.
16:22 hoodedice Pale Moon
16:22 hoodedice boo chromium
16:23 hoodedice they disabled NPAPI
16:23 sfan5 and?
16:23 sfan5 npapi caused a lot of security problems
16:23 sfan5 besides: if you need flash in chromium you can copy the plugin files from chrome
16:23 hoodedice how will plugins work now >_>
16:23 hoodedice not flash
16:23 hoodedice more important things like java
16:23 est31 there is pepper api
16:23 Jordach !tell Megaf <JD-Pub>Server has been running for 961:44:54
16:23 MinetestBot Jordach: I'll pass that on when Megaf is around
16:23 sfan5 kek
16:24 hoodedice broke a lot of shit at where I work
16:24 hoodedice we switched all of them to firefox now
16:24 hoodedice all of them == chrome users
16:24 Megaf lol Jordach
16:24 hoodedice ayyy el em ay oh Jordach
16:24 sfan5 hoodedice: java applets are an old & legacy technique
16:25 Wuzzy joined #minetest
16:25 Teckla As a full time Java developer that rather likes the language, JVM, ecosystem, etc...  JAVA APPLETS MUST DIE.  :)
16:26 Calinou Git command of the day: git reflog
16:27 Calinou Teckla, I like Java for its performance-to-levelness
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16:27 Calinou and apparently, not many languages compete with that other than C#
16:29 TheWild Java does not attract me because of everlasting lack of unsigned types
16:29 sfan5 java does not have unsigned types?
16:30 TheWild AFAIR char (16-bit unsigned), and that's all
16:30 Calinou the solution is easy... http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/143818.jpg
16:34 TheWild BTW, I'm blaming Java for lack of unsigned types, but which language other than assembly supports bit rotating? And I'm not talking about two shifts.
16:35 sfan5 <TheWild> BTW, I'm blaming Java for lack of unsigned types, but which language other than assembly supports bit rotating? And I'm not talking about two shifts.
16:35 sfan5 this
16:35 hoodedice w0t
16:35 Calinou also, Java lets you compile once and run everywhere... the compiled stuff is arch-independent
16:35 sfan5 It's very weird that no language supports proper shifting of bits
16:36 Calinou no more "oh... I need to build this for OS X 32 bits... and for Windows 64 bits..."
16:36 Calinou (to an extent)
16:36 hoodedice Calinou, IMO, worst thing about java
16:36 hoodedice is that it runs in VMs
16:36 Calinou (it might be trickier if you use native libs, but usually those are already well-compiled upstream)
16:36 Calinou VMs are the future :)
16:36 hoodedice no.jpeg
16:36 Calinou we can afford the performance hit
16:36 sfan5 no
16:36 hoodedice that future gives me nightmares
16:38 Megaf Teckla: The devs to apreciate your gratefulness despite the lack of words
16:38 Megaf now buy them a beer :P
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16:42 Megaf [17:26] <Calinou> Git command of the day: git reflog
16:42 Megaf what does that does?
16:43 Teckla Calinou: Can you elaborate on what you mean by performance-to-levelness?
16:43 Megaf or what do that does
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16:44 Teckla hoodedice: There are some Java compilers that produce native executables, such as Excelsior JET, but it's expensive.  :(
16:44 Calinou Teckla, it's quite higher level than C++, yet only slightly slower
16:44 Calinou GCJ is a fail too :P
16:45 Teckla Megaf: The Minetest devs are Gods among Men  ;)  :)
16:45 exio4 Calinou: using which benchmarks?
16:45 exio4 Calinou: the GC hit hurts badly when you start allocating memory
16:46 Teckla Calinou: Oh, yes.  I'm old and was in the thick of it when companies started fleeing from C++ to Java, and for good reason.
16:46 Calinou exio4, again, Jake2 :P
16:46 Calinou and even Minecraft
16:46 Calinou look how optimized it is now
16:46 exio4 yes, the GC can be used nicely
16:46 exio4 but you aren't comparing meaningful things
16:47 Teckla That being said, I think C++ is still very much appropriate for some application domains.  :)
16:47 exio4 you are comparing how certain specpfic non-allocating algorithm performs on different codebases
16:47 Calinou Teckla, mostly for embedded...
16:47 exio4 Calinou: run my benchmark, though, I get 1.2kM
16:47 Calinou it's painfully hard to write
16:47 Calinou and even harder to write properly
16:47 Calinou I don't really desire to learn C++ any day
16:47 exio4 "harder to write properly"
16:47 exio4 - Java, PHP, Python, Ruby, C++, C, and most `modern` OOP/imperative languages
16:47 Teckla I'm not smart enough to program in C++ unless it's a very disciplined subset
16:48 exio4 nobody is smart enough :>
16:48 Calinou all I can do in C++ is changing variables and commenting code :P
16:48 exio4 commenting code you don't understand? how?
16:50 hoodedice ...I have been looking at C++ code ever since I joined #minetest
16:50 hoodedice ... :: and -> still throw me off
16:51 Teckla I can program "old style C++" (think mid-90's).  "Modern C++" confuses me
16:51 Krock Tekken, do you mean C++ 90 / 98 vs 11?
16:52 Tekken Why j00 summon me!
16:52 Teckla Krock: Yes
16:53 sfan5 Krock: you highlighted the wrong person, also set your irc client to sort <tab> suggested nicks by time of last msg
16:54 Krock oopsd
16:54 Krock sfan5, thanks for notify. I didn't see my fault :3
16:54 Megaf Krock: you better run
16:54 Calinou modern C++ is quite better
16:54 Calinou but still low-level
16:55 Calinou exio4, I mean, commenting out code
16:55 Calinou or changing #if 0 to #if 1
16:56 Teckla I just like to understand everything that's going on and with C++ having undefined behavior, implementation defined behavior, and edge cases numbers in the many hundreds...  argh
16:56 Teckla I just don't have the brain power
16:56 Teckla s/numbers/numbering/
16:56 Calinou let's rewrite Minetest to Python 3, and admire how slow it is
16:58 Krock tab?
16:58 Calinou did        you        say        indentation        ?
16:59 Krock hmm doens't look like this irc client has a fast-reply function
16:59 Calinou (I (code (in (Lisp (too)))))
16:59 sfan5 Calinou: nobody said about python being fast
16:59 Krock oh noes (
16:59 sfan5 +anything
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17:03 exio4 Calinou: run the benchmark anyway
17:03 exio4 Calinou: and commenting out code is a nice way to break invariants and fuck up code
17:05 Calinou 3949969
17:08 hoodedice I wish united airlines had an irc chan
17:08 hoodedice hate calling customer service
17:10 Calinou heh
17:10 Calinou IRC channels would make everything so much easier, yeah
17:10 hoodedice they don't even have an email I could write them at >_>
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18:06 * DusXMT was digging dirt with a mesecons torch that he confused for a shovel... one can say that he hasn't played MT in a while
18:19 nolsen Trying to play minetest on my VM, but for some reason disabling Mouse intergation and adding the mouse device didn't work.
18:19 nolsen It's a mouse with a invisible cursor
18:21 nolsen Maybe I need to disable the shitty laptop mouse
18:23 nolsen Does anyone know?
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18:24 nolsen lol can't disable touchpad.
18:25 AndroidKris did you try toggling the HUD in minetest itself?
18:25 AndroidKris f1 I believe
18:26 TheWild about C++: I preferred C over C++, because I felt it being more machine-like. If there was object, it was passed as parameter to the function - at least I knew what is going on.
18:27 TheWild C++ was like a jungle with all that objective stuff, constructors, destructors, inheritance, operator overloading etc. Hell, what is this?
18:27 TheWild cout << "something"; why is cout shifted left? Ahh... yes, << is overloaded
18:27 TheWild and about commenting code: I've read many times that hot piss about self-explanatory code.
18:27 TheWild Take it real: You're writing a code and you expect it to be readable and understandable by other programmer? Long variable names (e.g. BlockCountUsedLater) and writing "more readable" control flow structures is not enough
18:27 TheWild .
18:28 TheWild You're writing a code and it does not only consist with an algorithm, but also a concept.
18:28 TheWild Sometimes you write a crazy fast code (e.g. bit twiddling hacks), but other guy reads this and gets no idea why it was made this way. What exactly was on your thought, programmer?
18:28 TheWild Write comments not only to fill less understandable pits and disable code fragments, but also to serve educational purpose for other programmers.
18:29 * TheWild has quit (Because real quit doesn't seem to display)
18:31 Calinou cout << "something" means, to me: "we can't be arsed to add print("whatever")"
18:31 Calinou :P
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18:31 Calinou self-commenting code is a myth
18:31 Calinou good code has at least 10 % of comments :P
18:31 nolsen AndroidKris: ...
18:31 nolsen Why would the hud be disabled?
18:31 AndroidKris no clue. It was just a thought.
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18:33 AndroidKris Did that fix your problem though nolsen?
18:33 AndroidKris ?
18:36 nolsen no.
18:36 nolsen Because OpenGL was fucking  up.
18:38 nolsen AndroidKris: Enabling the hud is as pointless as uhh.
18:38 nolsen Attempting to install PS4 on a computer?
18:38 nolsen Idk
18:38 nolsen To fix a solution.
18:38 AndroidKris ps4 is a computer.
18:38 AndroidKris lol
18:38 AndroidKris I see your point though.
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18:39 AndroidKris So you play without hud?
18:39 nolsen ............
18:39 AndroidKris 0.o
18:39 * nolsen facepalms
18:39 nolsen One does not simply play with hud.
18:39 nolsen and walk into mordor.
18:39 AndroidKris HAHAHA
18:39 AndroidKris I think I just woke up my napping son, laughing.l
18:39 AndroidKris lol
18:40 nolsen AndroidKris: I need an more advanced answer.
18:41 nolsen Only "enabling the hud" solution is for the question "H0w d0 i 3nable hudz?"
18:42 AndroidKris I'm terribly sorry for not giving you an answer that isn't advanced enough for your purposes.
18:42 nolsen My mouse keeps going insane on minetest, I tried disabling mouse intergration, but that didn't work on my VM. that is my question
18:42 Krock nolsen, replace a with '@'
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18:42 AndroidKris It's usually the simplest of things that we often overlook, and end up being the one thing that gives us the most headache because of that.
18:42 nolsen Krock ?
18:43 Krock H0w d0 i 3n@b13 hudz?
18:43 nolsen oh
18:43 nolsen It takes a no-brainer to turn on the hud ._.
18:43 nolsen Because it's on by default and why the hell you need it off.
18:44 nolsen Unless you're recording for youtube or something.
18:44 AndroidKris Hey, you probably didn't know how to enable/disable the hud the first time you played (or whatever other simple example you can come up with)
18:44 nolsen AndroidKris: Because I didn't care.
18:45 Krock F1, F2 and F8 are great for videos :)
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18:47 nolsen Finally, fixed it.
18:47 nolsen Now the only problem I have is lag :)
18:48 nolsen FPS of 9
18:48 nolsen What are the specs for this game?
18:49 nolsen nvm
18:50 nolsen Would 128MB of Graphics ram be enough? I don't see where it says graphics ram requirements and that's how much virtualbox will let me set.
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18:56 Calinou yes, plenty actually
18:56 Calinou VRAM does not translate into performance by the way
18:57 nolsen then how come I'm getting lag?
18:58 Calinou lag != low FPS
18:58 Calinou reduce the graphics settings, disable compositing in guest OS
18:58 nolsen composting?
18:58 nolsen compostiing?
18:58 Calinou desktop effects
18:58 nolsen Calinou: The graphics are using Video Rendering I think
18:58 Calinou GNOME doesn't let you disable them, but KDE, Xfce and LXDE do
18:58 nolsen or burner's vidoe
18:59 nolsen video*
18:59 Calinou use OpenGL
18:59 Calinou Burning's Video is software rendering...
18:59 nolsen OpenGL was having problems.
19:03 nolsen Calinou: https://meldy.hira.io/Zerobin/?823854eed9aebb5​0#0kLslpsgM++v6NfB3gE98/aWdZ0Jp8vA2UqAmd8Mo8E=
19:03 Calinou "Chromium: Humper" those developers...
19:04 nolsen Should I uninstall chromium?
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19:10 nolsen Oh, not chromium, the web browser.
19:10 * nolsen is retarded
19:10 nolsen Calinou: So what should I do?
19:11 Calinou I don't know, I once got it working well in VirtualBox
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19:16 exio4 Calinou: wait, did you compile with -threaded?
19:16 exio4 Calinou: ghc -O2 -threaded benchmark.hs
19:16 exio4 Calinou: without -threaded, it'll use 1 core
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19:48 Calinou ah
19:48 OldCoder joined #minetest
19:49 * Calinou applauds Haskell for being threaded in a smart way...
19:49 Calinou exio4, 16449997
19:50 Calinou http://yourgameideaistoobig.com/
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19:51 sfan5 Estimate: $458,893,924,742
19:51 sfan5 ok
19:53 Calinou open world + crafting + MMO + procedural gen + modding + all platforms = $640,224 (13 years)
19:53 Calinou that is Minetest...
19:57 rom1504 what about "Both PVE and PVP Gameplay! "
19:57 rom1504 "You could hire a team to make it for that price." that doesn't say how many years the team will take
20:10 TheWild a team of highly trained monkeys (google reference)
20:10 sfan5 TheWild: you mean youtube
20:10 TheWild yeah
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20:24 Minecrafter hello
20:24 Minecrafter somebody here?
20:24 phantombeta joined #minetest
20:24 Minecrafter hello phantom
20:24 Minecrafter nobody here?
20:27 hoodedice ^
20:31 sfan5 gg
20:35 heavygale joined #minetest
20:36 heavygale hey there,..minetest server only uses one cpu core, right? (except when generating the map)
20:37 exio4 heavygale: it's using a few cores but a few design issues don't let it use them for a speed-up
20:37 heavygale my server has only 1ghz per cpu and uses 100% when about 8 to 10 players are connected,.. the other cores are not used but the game lags,.. can i fix this?
20:37 exio4 !tell Calinou the -threaded parameter is because there are two runtimes, and the "performance" of the threaded runtime is different to the normal one, GC becomes a bit more costly and things like that
20:37 MinetestBot exio4: yeah, sure, whatever
20:40 heavygale could i speed it up by using a different database backend? does sqlite eats my cpu?
20:41 exio4 heavygale: there are performance tweaks, but they won't do magic, I don't know them though :(
20:41 heavygale alright, so i need a faster cpu-core for morgen then 10 players? :)
20:42 heavygale *more :D
20:43 exio4 you'll have to wait for someone that actually knows how minetest works :p
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20:48 sfan5 heavygale: not sure whether a diff. db backend will help, you'll have to try
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20:51 heavygale i'll do :) sadly there's only 1gb ram :D
20:52 heavygale see you
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20:53 Junko hello
20:53 Junko how do i search for public servers
20:53 Junko do i need to add manually?
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20:57 nolsen <exio4> Calinou: wait, did you compile with -threaded?
20:57 nolsen It didn't let me use those in make or cmake
20:57 exio4 make?
20:58 exio4 nolsen: I was talking about the Haskell benchmark
20:59 nolsen So what should I do?
20:59 nolsen I can't use opengl
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21:02 nolsen It doesn't work and makes my mouse cursor invisible.
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21:03 exio4 I was talking about something totally offtopic
21:04 nolsen ._.
21:06 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/master-server: Fix de-announcing c26c42b http://git.io/vI0hb (2015-06-08T23:05:30+02:00)
21:07 sfan5 Junko: see http://www.minetest.net/servers (at the bottom of the page)
21:10 OldCoder joined #minetest
21:12 Junko sfan5; thanks
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22:10 jordan4ibanez How do I get on_block_load or whatever
22:10 jordan4ibanez I want to do an action when  a ....node.... is loaded
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23:52 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: Minimal: Edit mapgen aliases. Use blob ore for clay, update other ores. Update simple biomes. Cleanup code e481745 http://git.io/vIE1h (2015-06-09T00:47:03+01:00)
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