IRC log for #minetest, 2015-04-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time	Nick	Message
00:00	devmarth	Someone mind compiling something and telling me if it works for them? I did it myself but it didnt play for me, but it worked before so its weird. Anyone interested?
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00:52	MinetestBot	[git] ShadowNinja -> minetest/minetest: Only lowercase project name at compile time 3be9787 http://git.io/vf3hN (2015-04-21T20:51:16-04:00)
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03:49	MinetestBot	[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Fix crash on startup (Windows) 17a173f http://git.io/vfswE (2015-04-22T13:48:10+10:00)
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09:03	JamesTait	Good morning all; happy Earth Day! :-D
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09:27	exio4	hi JamesTait!
09:28	JamesTait	exio4, o/
09:29	exio4	how is it going? everything alright?
09:30	exio4	I just learned the radeon driver (+ the closed firmware) supports more features than I thought http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/#index1h2
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09:33	JamesTait	exio4, everything's fine, thanks. :)  Busy, but that's fine!  How about you?
09:35	JamesTait	I used to have an ATi card in my old Acer Ferrari. Gave up on the nonfree driver after a couple of weeks of trying to use the laptop for my day job due to crashes, lack of suspend, other general niggles. Never looked back.
09:35	Calinou	Nouveau supports muticard these days
09:35	Calinou	but not SLI :)
09:37	MinetestBot	[git] loic.blotinstitutoptique.fr -> minetest/minetest: Re-apply 972d17baea81ffe6d508b291ef97207a4822e1da... f2155f2 http://git.io/vfG73 (2015-04-22T11:34:49+02:00)
09:41	Calinou	institutoptique.fr :D
09:41	Calinou	I thought it was a site selling glasses
09:43	Etzos	I never understood why people point out the fact that the radeon driver uses binary firmware yet no one mentions that when talking about AMD or Intel CPUs.
09:44	Calinou	the microcode updates can be avoided if you're ready to have lower performance or more bugs
09:44	Calinou	this isn't the case with radeon
09:45	Etzos	Microcode updates, there's still microcode there initially though.
09:45	Etzos	It just isn't loaded each time.
09:45	est31	you mean BIOS? or microcode?
09:45	Etzos	Microcode.
09:46	Calinou	well, the criteria here is “does it work with Linux-libre?”
09:46	Calinou	if so, it's fine, if not, it isn't :)
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09:47	twoelk	can override_day_night_ratio(ratio) somehow be used in some config file?
09:49	MinetestBot	[git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: Re-apply 972d17baea81ffe6d508b291ef97207a4822e1da... eec01bc http://git.io/vfGb0 (2015-04-22T11:47:22+02:00)
09:51	Etzos	But it's the same thing. The FSF just arbitrarily decided to make one binary firmware "fine" and the other "not". And I don't really understand why.
09:51	Calinou	because no better criteria is available
09:52	Calinou	it's the same reason the FSF says non-updatable firmware shouldn't be bothered about; because the user can't replace it themselves
09:52	Calinou	it does not make it magically fine
09:52	Etzos	But by that standard Intel and AMD CPUs are not fine.
09:52	Etzos	And yet they are.
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09:55	Calinou	we don't have any replacement for them; I don't think there are blob-free ARM machines around
09:55	Calinou	well, we do actually: use an old machine like a X60 or X200
09:55	Calinou	those run on Intel CPUs, but they don't have a Management Engine
09:56	exio4	I wouldn't mind Intel CPUs / nVidia GPUs if they didn't overlock their hardware
09:57	exio4	you need to pay extra for being able to overclock ... and they also remove features while doing so! wtf?
09:57	exio4	inb4 "it's an useless feature you never use! it doesn't matter!"
10:00	Calinou	well, overclocking restrictions shouldn't even exist in a fair world
10:00	Calinou	this is why we need free hardware :p
10:00	Calinou	http://www.wired.com/2015/03/richard-stallman-how-to-make-hardware-designs-free
10:00	exio4	AMD isn't 100% fair and lets us work in a dream world
10:00	exio4	but I'd compare Intel with NK
10:01	exio4	btw, Calinou, do you have 10~ minutes?
10:01	Calinou	for what?
10:01	exio4	watching http://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse341/13wi/videos/unit1/17_no_mutation.mp4
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10:02	exio4	his english is crystal clear (even though the audio is crappy)
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10:02	est31	crappy mpv :p
10:04	Calinou	no thanks
10:04	Calinou	quite busy actually
10:04	exio4	est31: you too!
10:04	exio4	Calinou: you should check it, it's really cool
10:05	exio4	Dan Grossman is amazing
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12:02	gamerdude	hi?
12:02	ElectronLibre	Hello.
12:02	gamerdude	:D Finally
12:02	ElectronLibre	(Tip : Don't expect people here to say hello very often)
12:03	gamerdude	Okay.
12:05	est	If you ask ShadowBot to say hello, it usually responds
12:05	est	ShadowBot, hi
12:05	ShadowBot	Hello est!
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12:49	pehjota	<Calinou> well, we do actually: use an old machine like a X60 or X200
12:49	pehjota	<Calinou> those run on Intel CPUs, but they don't have a Management Engine
12:50	pehjota	Actually, they do.  Intel 945 systems like the X60 have ME 1.0 running on the Ethernet controller, and Intel 4 Series systems like the X200 have ME 4.0 running on the MCH/northbridge.  libreboot disables or removes the ME on these systems.
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13:00	MinetestBot	[git] est31 -> minetest/minetest: Protocol 25: wstring -> string for custom access denial reasons ccc09ab http://git.io/vfZbg (2015-04-22T14:10:39+02:00)
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13:54	Calinou	thanks for the clarification
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14:12	TheDawg_	ElectronLibre, where should I post my screen captures?
14:13	ElectronLibre	You can use http://i.imgur.com/ or http://lut.im/ .
14:18	Calinou	lut.im is more secure ;)
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14:23	Calinou	one more repo and I'll be starring 250 GitHub repos
14:24	ElectronLibre	Wow. What is exactly the point of starring repos?
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14:32	Calinou	saving them for later, showing that you like them
14:32	Calinou	there are lots of great projects on GitHub
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14:42	Jordach	like torvalds/linux ;)
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15:41	xenkey	Ye
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15:53	Calinou	Jordach, I still see tons of people submitting pull requests… people wasting their time :(
15:55	ecutruin	Why would they be wasting their time?
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16:00	Jordach	many people try and submit PRs to the linux kernel to have their name enshrined into it
16:00	Jordach	most of them aren't worth the dirt on my boot most of the time
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16:22	xenkey	Yup
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16:41	rubenwardy	Hi all!
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17:03	ecutruin	Ah, I see Jordach.  Awkward.  That really is a waste of time.
17:04	* ecutruin	is spending his time learning basics of Unity, instead.
17:04	Calinou	ecutruin, :( learn Godot instead
17:04	Calinou	here's a tutorial: http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/2015/01/22/Godot-Engine-Tutorial-Part1-Your-First-Godot-Application.aspx
17:05	ecutruin	I'm following https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PazLGgeFkHI&amp;index=3&amp;list=PLPV2KyIb3jR4u6zeBY77WPj0KuFdmv84g
17:05	ecutruin	It uses the JS scripting, but I'm just porting everything to C# myself.
17:06	ecutruin	I got a tool for Unity off the market as well called PicaVoxel, that lets me put my Voxel art into Unity directly, and manipulate it there.  So.. with all luck, I'll be able to do something neat pretty quickly.
17:07	Calinou	yeah but I won't ever run it
17:07	ecutruin	Why?
17:07	Calinou	it's proprietary… which was why I told you to use Godot instead :P
17:08	Calinou	it's basically an Unity replacement; there aren't as many scripts though, and the graphics are less advanced.
17:08	Calinou	it's really good for 2D games, less so for 3D games
17:08	Calinou	(but still usable, hopefully)
17:08	ecutruin	Why would it matter, Clainou.. you don't need Unity to play my games, I can export them as native apps.
17:09	Calinou	they run on a proprietary engine, thus there's a proprietary dependency even if your source code is free/libre
17:09	Calinou	with Godot you can make games that respect user freedom, with Unity it's impossible
17:09	ecutruin	Why does that matter?  My source won't be free..
17:09	Calinou	well, consider making it so :)
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17:09	ecutruin	I am going to be making commercial games. O.o;
17:10	Calinou	you can sell free/libre software: https://gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
17:10	Calinou	look, people are selling Minetest, GNU/Linux distributions, LibreOffice support, …
17:10	Calinou	there's a bunch of commercial free (!) games too, like Sleep is Death
17:10	Calinou	sounds like an oxymoron, but it isn't :)
17:11	ecutruin	I know you can.  Doesn't mean I want to.. not to mention, I'm using Unity specifically because of the Voxel add-on I got for it, which won't exist for Godot.. so.. yeah, don't want to rebuild that.. don't want to rebuild the hundred other functionality tools Unity has.  I just want to make stuff.
17:11	Warr1024	I never really understood how the free-but-not-gratis thing was supposed to work.
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17:12	pehjota	Warr1024: The same way non-free-and-not-gratis works.  Sell copies.  Just include source code and a license with the copies.
17:12	Calinou	Warr1024, either you sell official (= guarantee of lack of viruses) binaries and give the source for free, or you make the game data (please not game logic) proprietary and make source code free, or you create crowdfunding campaigns.
17:12	Calinou	there are various business models, that can bring a lot of money if you do it well
17:12	ecutruin	Honestly, I'm not anti-Open Source or anything.. but.. I'm also not Open Source everything.
17:12	Calinou	(but in general, you should expect slightly less money)
17:13	pehjota	You could make source code publicly available somewhere at no charge, but nothing says you have to.  It's still free/libre software as long as the users (not necessarily the world) can get the source code.
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17:13	Warr1024	pehjota: I don't think that works, because your users ALSO need to be able to redistribute the source code, with or without modifications
17:13	ecutruin	I kind of thing being anti-proprietary is silly, to be honest.  Just because it is, doesn't make it bad.
17:14	Calinou	pehjota can nicely explain to you why we (the free software community) think proprietary software is bad :P
17:14	Calinou	in short, it puts control away from you, you can't study how the game works (which creates “Pokemon syndrome” where lots of myths spawn [see Minecraft]), you can't distribute it to your friends, …
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17:15	ecutruin	But.. it ISN'T bad.  That's a close-minded opinionated stance to take.  I'm not saying one or the other is better.  Open Source has its benefits, as does proprietary.  To decry proprietary just because you cannot tinker with it is wrong.  There are cases where you don't NEED to tinker with it at all.
17:16	pehjota	If you can't study and modify the software and distribute it (with or without modifications), it could have bugs (intentional or not) which you can't fix.  Those bugs could also track you, give a third party access to your system, etc.
17:16	Calinou	bugs are in all software, including games
17:16	xenkey	It tinkers with you instead
17:16	pehjota	https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/proprietary.html
17:16	Warr1024	It's probably fine to just think of free/libre as a feature like any other; it's more important to some users than others.
17:16	pehjota	Basically, the developer can make the software work against the user, and the user is powerless to change that.
17:16	ecutruin	pehjota, Just because you cannot fix the bugs yourself, does not mean it is bad.
17:17	Warr1024	For those to whom it's important, though, it can go a long way towards improving your product for very modest effort.
17:17	pehjota	Which in practice leads to all sorts of abuse (see above URL).
17:18	ecutruin	Again.. you are being close-minded if you apply a generalization like that.  In addition, non-proprietary CAN actually harm software in some cases.
17:18	Calinou	everyone can inspect “non-proprietary” (hey, what's with the trend of using negative words everywhere), which is a good thing for security
17:18	Calinou	security practices should be as open as possible; this is the proof of a good security policy design
17:18	Calinou	else you're performing security through obscurity
17:19	Warr1024	ecutruin: I've never heard of a case where transparency was harmful to a user; do you have some examples?
17:19	ElectronLibre	Wait. You're defending property softwares, on an IRC network that (and I quote) supports "the free and open source software communities since 1998".
17:19	ecutruin	You know what?  Let's drop it.  I'm just going to see you guys as overly negative people if this continues.  I believe you're wrong.. but let's just agree to disagree here.
17:19	ElectronLibre	^ From motd.
17:20	ElectronLibre	Property can have some benefits, but there are to us more problems with property and closed source ones than free and open source ones.
17:20	ecutruin	I'm not against Open Source.. but people that demand EVERYTHING be open.. aren't right either.
17:21	pehjota	Compare CVE lists, exploitation rates, and security patch delivery times of proprietary software to those of free/libre software.  Security researchers (the good guys) study and fix bugs in free/libre software before attackers have a chance of exploiting them.  Proprietary software offers no such security.
17:21	ElectronLibre	So, noone is right, that's a good end for this debate.
17:21	rubenwardy	pehjota, OpenSSL
17:21	rubenwardy	RSA
17:21	Calinou	OpenSSL stuff happened because of lack of audits (money)
17:21	Calinou	RSA is NSA'd (nice rhyme)
17:21	ecutruin	ElectronLibre, I agree.
17:22	rubenwardy	It would be nice if everything was FLOSS, but that's not realistic given that it is the big companies that have the biggest budgets and the best employees, which make the best software. Open source software tends to be crap.
17:22	rubenwardy	They make it propietary because they want to make lots of money, and protect making money
17:22	pehjota	rubenwardy: Two examples.  OK.  See the security records of Microsoft, Adobe, et al.  Microsoft is notorious for leaving known security holes unfixed for a decade or more.
17:23	rubenwardy	brb
17:23	pehjota	rubenwardy: Oh?  TIL that Google, Red Hat, IBM, AMD, Qualcomm, and all the other corporate contributors to free/libre software are not big companies with big budgets.
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17:24	Krock	meow
17:24	ecutruin	Here's my stance on things.  If you have issues with a specific piece of software because of practices of the company or the software itself, don't use it.  Period.  However, don't bash software PURELY because its proprietary.  Actually have a specific reason for that piece of software.  To decry things generally like that is again to racism and other such over generalizations.
17:25	Calinou	the best employees? some Google/Microsoft/Intel/… employees are rather mediocre
17:25	ecutruin	is again - is akin*
17:25	* marktraceur	looks disapproving at the channel noise
17:25	Calinou	hi marktraceur
17:25	Calinou	might want to chime in :P
17:26	marktraceur	I'm sure there's a reason for this debate somewhere back in the backscroll, but maybe someone could summarize
17:26	ecutruin	I've said my piece on the issue, if you disagree, honestly I don't give a damn.  I will use what I feel offers what I need for a given situation.  You're welcome to not use my stuff, and I honestly won't care that you don't. :3
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17:27	Calinou	marktraceur, TL;DR ecutruin is using Unity (the proprietary engine) to make a (proprietary) game, so I told them to use Godot
17:27	ecutruin	marktraceur, Calinou was bothered that I want to use Unity for a game because its "proprietary"...pretty much, that's it.
17:27	Calinou	that started a proprietary-vs-free fight
17:27	marktraceur	Of course it did, because #minetest is a powder keg.
17:27	marktraceur	Maybe you shouldna done that, Calinou.
17:28	marktraceur	ecutruin: There are valid points on both sides. It's your project, choose what you want, just don't do so based on dogma. From either side.
17:29	ecutruin	No.. Calinou, you're being an idiot... I never said I was against free.  Which means, there is no proprietary vs. free fight.  If anything I've been trying to say.. I love Open Source and contribute to it myself when I see something I want to contribute to.. but.. I also see a place for proprietary.  Not EVERYTHING needs to be one or the other.
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17:29	ecutruin	marktraceur, I've been saying that exact thing...the whole time...but noone is listening, it appears.
17:30	Calinou	if you see a place for proprietary, you indirectly find free software unsuitable in some cases, do you?
17:31	ElectronLibre	The problem here is, we're all both right, and wrong. It's not an objectiv thing we're arguing here, it's what everyone wants for their code. There are no good answers, neithier there are bad ones.
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17:32	ecutruin	Calinou, I see a place for proprietary, but that doesn't mean free of the exact same thing is bad.  Just means that I respect a developer's choice to keep things closed.
17:32	ecutruin	ElectronLibre, EXACTLY.
17:33	Calinou	ElectronLibre, you would have 20/20 in philosophy :P
17:34	ElectronLibre	Probably.
17:35	ElectronLibre	But to me, it's the only correct answer to your problem. And if this is not an answer, then there is no answer what so ever, so no problem.
17:35	* ecutruin	grins
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17:37	ElectronLibre	And this is how to stop people arguing when you know they will end up in a very bad situation after a long and complicated debate. ^^
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17:38	ecutruin	I am curious though, Calinou... I'm assuming you don't use Windows...don't play nearly any games...and use very little software.  Right?
17:38	Krock	There are many great FOSS games
17:39	Krock	as example.. minetest.
17:39	Calinou	whoa, I play a lot of games
17:39	Calinou	and lots of software
17:39	Calinou	I do use Windows on work PC
17:39	Calinou	but that might change soon
17:39	Calinou	playing Xonotic right now
17:40	ecutruin	Krock, no offense, but MT is not "great".  Its a neat thing, but not even close to "great" by game design standards.  Not that we need to go into that.. but just cannot agree with that statement.
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17:41	ecutruin	I don't know many FOSS games that actually have "great" quality to be honest.. and I don't think I know of a single one with "AAA" quality.
17:41	Calinou	0 A.D. approaches AAA quality
17:41	Calinou	so does all the id software games that were released under the GPL (with proprietary game data), especially Doom 3
17:41	Calinou	give RBDOOM3-BFG a try :)
17:41	Krock	Is OpenTTD AAA quality?
17:42	ecutruin	0 A.D. does impress me.  I will state, that probably is around AAA quality.. and impressive for sure.
17:42	Calinou	Krock, if you compare it to RCT 1/2 then maybe
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17:43	twoelk	0.A.D. ?
17:43	ecutruin	OpenTTD is probably sub AAA but still pretty good.  Though, it really is just an Open implementation of a proprietary game.
17:45	Calinou	http://play0ad.com/
17:45	Calinou	yeah, original game design is truly hard these days
17:46	twoelk	that really looks impresive
17:46	ecutruin	There is a middle ground between Original and Copy though.  0AD for instance, isn't really original.. but its definitely not a copy.  OpenTTD is just a copy.
17:46	pehjota	And Minecraft is really just a proprietary implementation of a free game (Infiniminer).
17:47	ecutruin	pehjota, not true.  Minecraft and Infiniminer are not actually the same game.  Aka, they are not copies.  The gameplay of MC is very different compared to Inf.
17:47	Calinou	copying is not unethical or a bad
17:47	rubenwardy	The main problem is that society is taught that greedy copyright is right, that you shouldn't steal/nick/copy/ripoff, and do it from scratch.
17:47	ecutruin	Never said it was.
17:47	Calinou	“good artists copy, great artists steal” — Picasso
17:48	Calinou	pehjota, Infiniminer was proprietary I think.
17:48	Calinou	the source code was leaked
17:48	rubenwardy	^^ exactly. The whole "it has similar gameplay, it is a rip off"
17:48	ecutruin	Yup.. I am an artist/designer.  One of the best ways to come up with "new" things is to build from "old".
17:48	Calinou	Web designers use lots of libraries, good ones don't reinvent the wheel
17:48	Calinou	imagine the Web of 2015 without Bootstrap or jQuery :)
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17:49	pehjota	Calinou: Ah, yeah, it was originally proprietary then it became free (after some people decompiled it).
17:49	twoelk	I think Minecraft has indeed gone own ways and some of that was next to Minetest ;-P
17:49	ecutruin	The reason I mentioned OpenTTD being a copy.. is to illustrate that a large majority of quality games make it by being proprietary, partially due to the costs involved with constructing such games.  If you go FOSS, while there are solutions to allow you to sell, letting anyone copy your game for FREE hurts revenue, which you need to make your next game.
17:50	ecutruin	Doesn't mean OpenTTD is bad, by any means.  It looks like a pretty neat game, had I had an itch to play such a game, I'd probably play it.
17:51	pehjota	License or not, people copy games and hurt revenue.
17:51	ecutruin	They do.  Yup.
17:51	ecutruin	But its a lot harder to get the EXACT same feeling of play, if its proprietary.
17:52	Calinou	pehjota, being decompiled doesn't make it free… lack of license
17:53	pehjota	Calinou: Expat license: <http://code.google.com/p/infiniminer/>, <http://code.google.com/p/infiniminer/source/browse/trunk/LICENSE>
17:53	ecutruin	Take some of the NES game clones as an example.  Many old players of the originals can quickly tell when jump mechanics are off, projectile speeds are off, etc.  It just doesn't "feel" the same.
17:53	Calinou	doesn't seem very legal
17:53	Calinou	but I'll believe you
17:53	pehjota	So licensed by the author in 2009.
17:54	Calinou	I'm going to export it so that it's still alive after Google Code shutdown
17:54	pehjota	Unfortunately it has non-free build dependencies, so it's not FSD material.
17:54	pehjota	(Unless ported)
17:54	Calinou	which ones?
17:55	pehjota	Visual Studio 2008 and XNA Game Studio 3.0
17:55	pehjota	Also, Git repository: <https://github.com/krispykrem/Infiniminer/tree/master>.
17:55	Calinou	oh, so it's already done
17:55	pehjota	Wikipedia also has information about its licensing: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zachary_Barth#Infiniminer>.
17:56	ecutruin	Like I said though, FOSS isn't bad.  And hell.. 0 A.D. is definitely showing the world that AAA quality can be done as FOSS.  Color me impressed, for sure.  However, it'll be a long time before we see FOSS game development engines with the full power of Unity, UE4, etc., and I honestly don't have the time to wait. ^-^
17:56	Calinou	Godot is pretty powerful, so are Torque 3D/2D
17:56	Calinou	the engines aren't what we lack, what we lack is games and artists
17:56	ecutruin	But.. they aren't Unity.
17:56	Calinou	few artists are willing to free their work
17:56	Calinou	Godot's community is rapidly growing
17:56	Calinou	https://github.com/Calinou/awesome-godot
17:58	ecutruin	Calinou, can I ask ya something.. how old are you (even a rough age is fine, if you don't mind giving exact).
17:59	ecutruin	if you mind * rather.. blargh my typing today.
17:59	Krock	ecutruin, ask the NSA.
17:59	ecutruin	Krock, that was rather immature.
18:00	Krock	Thank you.
18:01	ecutruin	I ask specifically because I am 32.  I don't really have the luxury of working for free at this time.  I do create free stuff on occasion (such as the drone I made for one of the people here), and love doing that.. but I need to make an income, a good income at that as I have a wife to help support, a cat, family, etc.
18:02	ecutruin	I'd assume this is true for MANY artists.  Especially when artists are a lot more common now days, and getting a job as one is much more challenging.
18:02	Warr1024	ecutruin: if you decide to produce something proprietary, it would be appreciated if you had some sort of sunsetting provision, like a Founder's Copyright or something, for when commercial intrest started to die down...
18:02	Calinou	let's say 15-20 for now
18:02	Calinou	:p
18:02	Calinou	you do realize crowdfunding is a thing? ;)
18:03	Warr1024	crowdfunding isn't without its issues, though.
18:03	Warr1024	https://xkcd.com/1055/
18:04	ecutruin	Warr1024, if I made enough to set me up for a good amount of time, I'd probably make it public.. wouldn't be FOSS because Unity and PicaVoxel dependencies, but none the less.. I'd open it up at least in some fashion.  I'm not the type to be hyper commercial keep everything closed forever.
18:05	Warr1024	IIRC, Notch promised to eventually open-source Minecraft once it was no longer generating enough revenue, but I guess that died with the sale to Microsoft.  I was rather disappointed by that...
18:05	ecutruin	Calinou, and I'll probably have to use crowdfunding just to allow me to to get a reasonable amount of content created to be considered a release state within a year.  Its not easy to work full-time and try manage a project...especially code, game mechanics, art, community, marketing, etc.. all youself.
18:06	ecutruin	Notch planned a lot of things.  The community made him hate what he made.. so I don't really blame him for selling, tbh.
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18:08	Calinou	you don't have to make it all yourself, it's probably unreasoanble
18:08	Calinou	one-man projects do exist but are rare
18:08	Warr1024	ecutruin: also keep in mind that proprietary vs. free/open more of a floating-point thing than boolean.  You can always release PARTS of your product as open-source.
18:08	Calinou	you have the option of reusing free art (or code), like the one found on opengameart.org
18:08	Calinou	Warr1024, yeah but the “id way” to release games looks out of date to me
18:09	Calinou	someone determined can make free replacement art for your project and bam, here goes away your money :)
18:10	Calinou	crowdfundings of free/libre projects work fairly well overall
18:10	ecutruin	Warr1024, of course.. but at launch.. I have no reason to.  Hell.. to be honest, with what I'm planning on making a TON of my game's "code" will actually be Unity itself.  I'm a artist/designer first, developer third.  So.. I'll be leaning on Unity and PicaVoxel heavily to make my game.
18:10	Warr1024	Calinou: that depends on what you're really selling.  If the value of your game is dominated by the innovative engine, and the assets and design aren't worth much, then yeah, it's a problem.
18:10	Calinou	there are a lot of people who will happily support it
18:10	Calinou	it's rarely a scam
18:10	Calinou	the other problem of Unity is the license fees
18:10	Calinou	free engines like Godot have no fees, even if you're a 50,000-employee company making $50 billion per year
18:11	ecutruin	And?
18:11	ecutruin	Unity's fees are amazing for what it offers.
18:11	ecutruin	I pay nothing until I make 100,000 USD.
18:11	ecutruin	And then, I just pay 1,500 USD for a license for myself.
18:12	Calinou	1,500 is a lot for some people :)
18:12	ecutruin	Um.. did you read what I said..
18:12	Jordach	ecutruin, a comma is a decimal point in Europe
18:12	Jordach	stupid endeavour
18:12	Warr1024	I'd say that one of the biggest risks I watch out for with a proprietary component is vendor lock-in, but when you're dealing with something like an engine, lock-in is almost impossible to avoid...
18:12	Calinou	no, I read it right
18:12	Calinou	yeah, also lock-in
18:13	Jordach	cough Unreal Engine 4
18:13	Krock	"Living on earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the sun."
18:13	Calinou	proprietary, undocumented formats
18:13	ecutruin	You pay NOTHING until you've made 100,000 USD... ALREADY... when you have 100k USD, 1.5k USD is not a lot of money to keep going.
18:13	Warr1024	Frankly, MT is fairly locked into Irrlicht, and it's not without its own headaches.
18:13	Calinou	royalties make something non-free anyway :)
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18:14	twoelk	and yet minetest does not seem to use everything irrlicht offers
18:15	ecutruin	Warr1024, oh.. I fully understand.. but that's honestly not super relevant at this point in time.  Its a choice between Vender lock and likely never making it.  Since a lot of the core mechanics of what I want to make will be simple, it shouldn't actually be too hard to port the mechanics to a new engine if it proves a good option.
18:15	rubenwardy	You don't get a full version of unity though
18:15	ecutruin	rubenwardy, that's wrong.
18:15	rubenwardy	Oh, has it changed?
18:16	ecutruin	You don't get cloud building and some other things that I wouldn't ever need anyways.. as they are based around larger corporate projects.
18:16	ecutruin	The primary difference I'd have between Unity 5 and Unity 5 Pro.. is having a Unity splash screen.
18:16	Calinou	oh, an artist can also sell physical copies of their stuff.
18:16	Calinou	some musicians do this
18:16	ecutruin	And.. say I do kickstart it.. I may get Pro anyways before I ever launch.
18:17	rubenwardy	I see. They used to have lighting only in pro
18:17	rubenwardy	So you'd have to light ma[
18:17	rubenwardy	Which was the biggest limitation, for me
18:17	Calinou	a forced splash screen is an unacceptable feature
18:17	ecutruin	Calinou, they can.. but again.. the market is flooded with artists.  Its not all that easy to get work.  Especially if you're a niche artist like myself (pixel/voxel).
18:17	Calinou	Godot lets you change or disable the built-in splash screen easily
18:18	ecutruin	Calinou, if you haven't realized this yet.. I could care less about Godot.
18:18	Calinou	rubenwardy, license type headaches are another reason to choose free/libre software :)
18:18	Calinou	for me Godot is quite an example, probably because it's the most promising engine
18:18	ecutruin	Godot does not have what I need.. and implementing what I need into it would take time I don't have.
18:18	Calinou	Torque 3D has a very “Windowsian” philosophy, so I don't like it much
18:19	Calinou	ecutruin, out of curiosity, what format does your Voxel art use?
18:19	ecutruin	Qubicle's QB format.
18:20	ecutruin	The third-party add-in "PicaVoxel" imports the QB and makes Unity meshes / collision boxes for me.
18:20	ecutruin	Also lets me do a lot of manipulation to said voxels at run-time, offers a voxel particle engine, etc.
18:21	Calinou	never heard of that format, probably a proprietary one :(
18:22	ecutruin	Its proprietary-ish.  It was made by Minddesk for the Qubicle program, but.. they released the specs on a wiki, so portability can be done.
18:22	ecutruin	Qubicle is proprietary.. but meh, I like it better.
18:22	ecutruin	I could use MagicaVoxel's vox format instead.
18:22	ecutruin	But as stated, I just like Qubicle's workflow better.
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18:25	ecutruin	That's part of the issue for me.  While FOSS is definitely better for customization and such.. I just don't have the time to customize it.  Since doing that, takes time away from actually making content.
18:27	Calinou	MagicaVoxel is proprietary apparently.
18:27	Calinou	downloaded the .zip, no source code
18:27	Calinou	from the https://ephtracy.github.io/# page
18:28	ecutruin	Sure.. maybe if I somehow just blow a kickstarter away insanely well.. I could consider building tools within Godot by hiring developers to do so.. create a FOSS voxel art tool in it as well.. and release all that FOSS back to the community.  But right now.. I am on medical leave, making 50%ish what my wages normally would be, scraping by.. I just don't have the resources to do that.
18:28	Calinou	https://voxel.codeplex.com/SourceControl/latest
18:28	Calinou	no program source code
18:28	Calinou	https://voxel.codeplex.com/license
18:28	Calinou	claims to be GPLv2…
18:33	* ecutruin	shrugs..
18:33	ecutruin	Maybe something didn't get migrated over.  No clue.  I don't use it.  I just know that PicaVoxel supports it's format as well.
18:39	Calinou	sent them an e-mail
18:39	Calinou	we'll see :p
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18:43	luizrpgluiz	hi all
18:45	ecutruin	Sadly, Voxel is a newer medium in regards to actual art.. so the tools are rather limited in general.
18:46	Calinou	you could just use Blender :P
18:46	Calinou	maybe there are add-ons to ease voxel creation
18:46	Calinou	not sure if there are exporters
18:49	ecutruin	Calinou, Blender has one of, if not THE, worst control schemes for an artist IMO.
18:49	Calinou	the UI was greatly improved in Blender 2.5x
18:49	ecutruin	The UI was improved.. and is still crap.
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18:50	Calinou	did you go to the User Preferences menu? it's not that visible sadly
18:50	Calinou	you can theme it to look better, to have larger text…
18:50	ecutruin	And the controls are still not friendly.. AND its a 3D model making program.. not a voxel art program.  While you can make a mesh from voxels, and generally view them as a mesh.. they are 3D pixel art.. you need pixel-art focused tools to really do them well.
18:50	Calinou	also there's a command palette to do common stuff
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18:50	ecutruin	Calinou, I should not have to configure a tool to work how most industry tools work.
18:51	ecutruin	It should be that way by default.
18:51	ecutruin	And regardless.. there isn't a reason for me to use it really.. I have Qubicle.
18:51	ecutruin	Blender isn't better at doing voxel art than Qubicle/MagicaVoxel.. so there is no reason to use it for that.
18:51	Calinou	there's a way to make it look and feel like Maya/3DSMax if that's what you want
18:52	Calinou	you're complaining about ripoffs, yet saying that Blender should behave the same as one of these tools? :/
18:52	Calinou	no UI is perfect
18:53	ecutruin	I'm saying that there are expectations artists have when using a tool.  Blender doesn't fit with those, for me.  Therefore, I have no desire to use it.  End of story, not going to change this stance, period.
18:54	ecutruin	In addition to this fact, it is not a pixel / voxel art tool...giving me even LESS reason to be interested in it as pixel and voxel art is my medium.
18:54	ecutruin	Therefore, Blender is relatively worthless to me.
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18:56	Krock	our soul is back
18:57	ecutruin	I have no idea why you seem to persist on cramming OSS/FOSS software down my throat when it I already have software that works better for what I want to do and I've already purchased it.
18:57	Calinou	because some day you'll join us :D
18:57	Calinou	marktraceur did the same thing to me
18:57	ecutruin	No, if anything.. this will alienate me.
18:58	Calinou	you seem to be avoiding the problem in general
18:58	ecutruin	Because I'll get tired of listening to your crap and think you a bigoted fool.  Honestly, its not the way to win someone over.
18:58	Calinou	“Complain until you're satisfied” — Bill Clinton (The Simpsons)
18:58	ecutruin	There isn't a problem.  I have what tools I need, which are the better tools for the purpose.  I don't give a damn whether they are proprietary or not.  Therefore, no problem.
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19:00	ecutruin	If OSS/FOSS tools offered equal functionality at the same or lower cost, then I'd use those.  It isn't about proprietary vs free.. its about what tool can I use NOW to get what I want to do done.
19:00	Calinou	they do offer equal functionality, you maybe just don't know about it, or don't feel like learning it
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19:01	ecutruin	Prove me wrong.  Find me equal tools to Unity.. with PicaVoxel.. and a voxel art tool that is FOSS and offers equal functionality to Qubicle.
19:01	ecutruin	Prove it.
19:01	ecutruin	Until you do.. I'll not waste my time trying to find something that may not actually exist... when I've found tools that DO exist, and offer what I need NOW.
19:02	Calinou	nothing prevents you from choosing Godot, and revising your game design accordingly
19:02	marktraceur	Calinou: Well, now I see how foolish I was. Being belligerent with people is not a good way to succeed.
19:02	Calinou	sometimes, being limited by your tools helps
19:02	Calinou	this is common in Minecraft-style games: give someone 5 block types and they'll make a great-looking building; give someone else 50 block types and they'll make crap
19:02	ecutruin	Calinou, I don't want to use Godot.. it doesn't offer the very BASIC thing I need to make the kind of game I want to make.. it has no voxel support.
19:03	Calinou	for instance, arena first person shooters, Toy Story, … are born due to technical limitations
19:03	ecutruin	How the hell do I make a voxel-based game in a voxel-less environment, without building my own voxel implementation.
19:03	Calinou	Minetest is a voxel implementation :)
19:03	ecutruin	No.. its not.
19:03	Calinou	Tersology too :)
19:03	Calinou	Terasology*
19:03	ecutruin	no.. they aren't.
19:03	Calinou	Voxel.js too!
19:03	* ecutruin	facepalms.
19:04	ecutruin	You're showing that you're young and inexperienced, Calinou
19:04	marktraceur	ecutruin: Explain how none of those things are voxel implementations instead of being an asshole.
19:04	jin_xi	ugh
19:04	marktraceur	"You said something incorrect, because X Y Z" is better than "You are young and inexperienced"
19:05	ecutruin	Actual Voxel art is 3D pixel art.  What MC, MT and other such engines are is Textured Cube games.. not actually voxel games.  They use similar techniques but are not actually voxel in the same sense.
19:05	marktraceur	ecutruin: What's the difference exactly?
19:05	Calinou	I don't get it; with Minecraft-style games, you build 3D pixel art
19:05	ecutruin	Texture.
19:05	rubenwardy	The whole world is voxel art, rather than a block
19:05	marktraceur	That sounds like an implementation detail.
19:05	ecutruin	And in many cases the fact that not everything is a cube even.
19:06	marktraceur	Again, implementation detail.
19:06	Calinou	rubenwardy, you can make your structure surrounded by thin air, using singlenode mapgen
19:06	marktraceur	ecutruin: Make a minetest game that has the specific types of nodes you want to implement.
19:06	Calinou	you're free not to use nodeboxes in your build
19:06	Calinou	and you can use one-color textures
19:06	Calinou	however, I'll admit we lack exporting to .obj format
19:06	marktraceur	You could probably write a script that does that.
19:06	rubenwardy	They have done
19:07	Calinou	Minetest to .obj?
19:07	ecutruin	Nope.. its actually a medium detail.. art style wise, its quite different.  To say they are the same is to say 3D meshes and pixel art are the same cause they are pixels on a screen.  There is a specific style to voxel art that textured cubes do not adhere to.
19:07	rubenwardy	But it's no substitute for a real tool
19:07	ecutruin	MT is too broken for me to use as-is AND I gain more functionality by using Unity.  Its not efficient for me to make my stuff in MT.
19:07	* marktraceur	shrugs
19:07	OldCoder	sfan5, this is a newbie question, but how do I get Silvercrab onto the server list?
19:07	ecutruin	Especially not for a commercial game.
19:07	OldCoder	Or back, rather
19:07	marktraceur	ecutruin: OK, good luck then
19:07	OldCoder	marktraceur, it
19:08	OldCoder	has been 1 or 2 years; hello
19:08	marktraceur	Because you won't find much help for Unity here.
19:08	OldCoder	Try Sythe
19:08	marktraceur	OldCoder: Hi there. I've been around a while.
19:08	ecutruin	I don't believe I asked for help, marktraceur. O.o;
19:08	OldCoder	Then why are you here?
19:08	marktraceur	^
19:08	ecutruin	Because I find MT an interesting prospect?
19:08	OldCoder	Prospect for what?
19:08	xenkey	^
19:08	marktraceur	But not useful for your purposes?
19:08	marktraceur	Because that sounds like it means it's no longer a prospect, and now an ex-prospect.
19:09	OldCoder	Is the decision made?
19:09	OldCoder	Ninja
19:09	OldCoder	If so then goodbye
19:09	ecutruin	Eventually it may be something I'd want to contribute to.. and some of the things the community creates are interesting?
19:09	marktraceur	OK, cool.
19:09	OldCoder	Hm
19:09	OldCoder	Well, all right
19:09	marktraceur	ecutruin: But that then begs the question of why you started asking about Unity.
19:09	xenkey	Um
19:09	marktraceur	OldCoder: Hardly bannable.
19:09	OldCoder	I do not ban
19:09	xenkey	Exactly
19:09	OldCoder	You remember our friend from 2012 I assume
19:09	OldCoder	Well, I almost never ban
19:10	ecutruin	Its not useful for my CURRENT plans, no.  But you know.. if I had funds and want to contribute to a MC/MT like project (which my current project isn't really.. no plans for a large world or anything like that), I'd likely invest resources into MT.
19:10	OldCoder	Anyway, ecutruin, I have a Unity friend
19:10	marktraceur	Cool.
19:10	ecutruin	I didn't start asking about Unity, marktraceur.  I made a statement that I was using Unity to make a game.  That's it.  Calinou is the one that jumped down my throat for using Unity.
19:10	rubenwardy	http://a.pomf.se/ejfbqy.png
19:10	OldCoder	Ah
19:11	rubenwardy	Why do I always choose complicated things to make?
19:11	ecutruin	rubenwardy, that looks neat.
19:11	marktraceur	OK, sorry ecutruin
19:11	OldCoder	rubenwardy, because it is fun
19:11	marktraceur	I didn't catch the beginning of this whole business.
19:11	* OldCoder	needs to work, see you
19:11	marktraceur	Calinou: Be nice to people in the channel, geez.
19:11	xenkey	If it works and makes money, EVEN Java is worthwhile.
19:11	OldCoder	ecutruin, PM sometime if you are interested in Unity
19:11	xenkey	Albeit badly.
19:12	Calinou	I wasn't mean to anyone (-:
19:12	rubenwardy	I like quirkly little sim games
19:12	xenkey	Lol
19:13	Calinou	this is a free software environment, you have to expect that it's poorly regarded to claim to use/promote proprietary software; this isn't #steamlug :)
19:13	xenkey	I might try Unity sometime
19:13	ecutruin	I've basically been defending the fact that its better for me, given my constraints, the whole time.  Not trying to tell others to use it.. or asking questions about it, or anything.
19:13	Calinou	xenkey, :'( after all this?
19:13	marktraceur	Calinou: Yes, but hardly necessary to "jump down [his] throat"
19:13	OldCoder	Calinou, it may be poorly regarded but this is not a closed enclave
19:14	xenkey	Calinou: at least after I may have some valid reasons to dislike it
19:14	Jordach	Calinou, it's impossible to be truly "free"
19:14	Jordach	after all, it's not a fixed sort is it?
19:14	ecutruin	Calinou, did I miss something somewhere, because I don't see anywhere specifically this is a "free software environment" ONLY...so there is no reason to harass me for using non-free software.
19:14	xenkey	Yes you can
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19:14	xenkey	You can be libre rather than gratis
19:15	Calinou	I am gratis!!1!
19:15	xenkey	I use Windows, that's non fred
19:15	xenkey	Free
19:16	ecutruin	And...complaining about the software I'm using without actually offering reasonable alternatives is also not beneficial at all.  You offered Godot.. which, I admit, would possibly allow me to swap out Unity.. if it weren't that I also rely on a Unity-specific plugin.  You didn't offer a solution for that... or a solution for my Voxel art tool.
19:16	xenkey	I don't, but suppose I did...
19:16	ecutruin	And solutions need to at least offer 90% functionality...because if its going to take me an extensive amount of time to implement features myself, its not practical.
19:16	xenkey	Keep using it if it works
19:16	* ecutruin	nods.
19:17	Jordach	there's a reason why i use b3d instead of obj
19:17	Jordach	not because of it's non-free status
19:17	xenkey	Why do you think people use Micrisoft
19:17	ecutruin	That's what I intend on doing, xenkey.  Just trying to suggest to Calinou, that if he wants to advocate...actually do so with solutions...not just complaints.
19:17	xenkey	(They want to be spied on) it works :)
19:17	Calinou	advocating doesn't always come with solutions, because it isn't my job to implement all the missing features (and it isn't yours either!)
19:18	Calinou	https://gnu.org/philosophy/imperfection-is-not-oppression.html
19:18	ecutruin	Calinou, but if you don't have a solution... it isn't BETTER for me.
19:18	xenkey	Touch calinou_gnu.txt
19:18	ecutruin	So.. arguing with me about it or complaining that I'm using it is wrong.
19:18	Calinou	Jordach, formats aren't free or non-free, they can be patent-encumbered or not
19:18	Calinou	B3D is not restricted by any known patents
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19:20	ecutruin	Btw, Calinou, your last link doesn't even work. :p
19:21	xenkey	404 full of info m8
19:21	Calinou	you are right, here is the right one: https://gnu.org/philosophy/imperfection-isnt-oppression.html
19:21	Calinou	both were in my history for some reason
19:23	ecutruin	Not sure how that link actually lends anything to the discussion.  I've never said anything along those lines.  I've said that there isn't FOSS/OSS that offers what I need.  Not that FOSS/OSS is bad because it doesn't.  Just that proprietary is better for my needs.  Which, your link actually supports.
19:26	ecutruin	Calinou, something you need to understand.  I'm not using proprietary because it is proprietary.  I'm using it because I do not have the time/drive to develop what would be needed in order to use FOSS/OSS instead.  If there was a good, fully-featured alternative, I'd definitely consider it.  Hell, I bookmarked Godot to keep an eye on it a a future possibility.
19:27	ecutruin	I don't hate FOSS/OSS.  I don't think proprietary is "better" because its proprietary.  I think proprietary ends up being beneficial from a financial perspective, which usually gives incentive to dump more money into the development and design of such software, aka...it does tend to offer more features when compared to FOSS/OSS in many cases.
19:28	marktraceur	Theory vs. practice :)
19:28	* ecutruin	nods.
19:28	SylvieLorxu	Sure, more money gets thrown into it generally, but the lack of possibility for the community to help can hurt more
19:29	ecutruin	SylvieLorxu, depends on the product and how its handled.
19:29	SylvieLorxu	We have some amazingly polished FOSS stuff that's, due to communities, much better than the proprietary alternatives
19:29	SylvieLorxu	Well, true
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19:30	ecutruin	Take Unity, for example.  Its proprietary, but offered free of cost to learn from.  In addition, you can create plugins to improve, add, or change functionality of the editor.  Therefore the community can still improve it.  Just being proprietary isn't a good reason to decry it.
19:30	SylvieLorxu	The community can improve part of it
19:31	SylvieLorxu	They'll always be working around things in a setup like that and can't help to their full potential
19:31	est31	ecutruin, the issue is I guess that unity can always lose that
19:32	ecutruin	Yup.  And it looks like Godot is fighting to become a good FOSS/OSS alternative.  However, its just not there yet.  Not that its me saying its bad though, its younger, has less income, etc.  For me, who needs to be able to do as much with as little effort as possible, Unity is a better solution.  Doesn't mean its the better solution always though.
19:32	ecutruin	est31, it could always lose this functionality.. and I could always not update to a new version.
19:32	SylvieLorxu	"I could always not update to a new version"
19:32	ecutruin	Or I could move to a new engine.
19:32	SylvieLorxu	Not necessarily true
19:33	SylvieLorxu	The software can be written in a way where the old version literally stops working after a new version gets released
19:33	ecutruin	I am not required to update Unity.  I had Unity 4, it didn't "make" me upgrade to Unity 5.
19:33	SylvieLorxu	Well, sure, but that's not always going to be the case
19:33	ecutruin	SylvieLorxu, again.. you're generalizing things in a way that I don't give a damn about.  This isn't some mysterious evil software that I'm likely not even using.
19:33	SylvieLorxu	I mean, with proprietary software in general
19:34	est31	yes, but you will sit on an "abandoned" product
19:34	ecutruin	Be specific, is what I'm saying.
19:34	est31	without any progress
19:34	ecutruin	est31, maybe.. but I can create plugins remember, so I can add functionality myself if I really need to.
19:35	ecutruin	Or.. as I stated, because a lot of my actual game is content, which is already not tied directly to Unity, I could move later when I've already funded the project.
19:37	ecutruin	Basically what I'm saying, and have been saying, is don't claim proprietary software is bad as a generalization.  Its not.  Making such a statement is akin to someone saying all whites are bad because a small group were bad.  Its racism in a different form, basically.
19:39	ecutruin	Yes, some proprietary software do questionable things.  Then again, some FOSS/OSS software ends up with so little support you are doomed to managing it alone or moving on to something else.  There isn't a perfect world here.  You use what is best for what you wish to accomplish.
19:40	ecutruin	Software is a tool.  You don't use a screwdriver to remove a bolt.
19:40	Calinou	colored people are not unethical
19:40	ecutruin	FOSS/OSS isn't ethical by default either.
19:40	ecutruin	You can have unethical FOSS/OSS communities as well.
19:41	Calinou	why wouldn't it be? it respects the four freedoms
19:41	Calinou	some communities don't value that much, but that doesn't make it unethical
19:41	Calinou	you can ignore the community
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19:42	ecutruin	But.. how does FOSS/OSS actually reward me for the work I put into it?  How is it ethical to expect to get my work for no cost?
19:43	Calinou	the ethics of unpaid labor is another thing :) and you can sell stuff anyway
19:43	Calinou	or have an unrelated job
19:43	ecutruin	See.. in a perfect world.  FOSS/OSS would be everything.  Money wouldn't even exist.  People would make stuff and work purely to benefit humanity, their community, etc.  Unfortunately, we don't live in such a world.
19:43	Calinou	many free software proponents believe in universal salary, but not all of them
19:44	ecutruin	Calinou, you're missing a major problem.  If all software was FOSS/OSS...then you wouldn't be able to work an unrelated software job...because there are none.
19:44	Calinou	why would jobs of eg. gardening, law, medicine disappear?
19:45		SylvieLorxu joined #minetest
19:45	ecutruin	Why would I as a software developer work a full time job AND give you my free time to develop software on the side?
19:46	sfan5	because you want to
19:46	ecutruin	But you know what?  You do just that.  See how well it works.  Go get a full time job, get your own apartment and manage all the bills and stress of living on your own, and then try give up the free time you have after work to what is essentially another job, with nothing gained beyond self gratification.  See how it works.
19:46	sfan5	..because you use the software yourself and want to improve it
19:47	sfan5	..or because your think (F)OSS is important
19:47	sfan5	there are many reasons
19:47	ecutruin	Sure.  But generally its rare that people can do that and stay functional.
19:47	Calinou	many people like to develop software as a hobby
19:47	Calinou	look at some JavaScript out there; most of them are non-profit, or started as non-profit
19:48	ecutruin	Many that contribute to (F)OSS do so because they are actually using it themselves.
19:48	Calinou	the Atom editor is made by a for-profit, but it's fully non-profit (all packages are free/libre and gratis, just like the editor)
19:48	ecutruin	Generally they are using it themselves in a role in which they benefit financially from doing so.
19:48	pehjota	Most software developers are paid to work on free/libre software.  Most software in the world is custom software, developed in-house or for a client, which is trivially free/libre in that all of the one users (the company) have full rights and source code.  Free/libre software isn't necessarily the published kind.
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19:48	Calinou	I believe GitHub employees wanted their own editor, so they did it
19:48	Calinou	it's not like quality stuff (proprietary or not) didn't exist before Atom
19:48	sfan5	<pehjota> Most software developers
19:49	Calinou	it's mostly compared to Sublime Text these days (although slower)
19:49	sfan5	oh nevermind
19:49	Calinou	most? I doubt it. many? for sure, especially on Linux and compilers like GCC
19:49	Calinou	there's a lot of custom software too, but it can't really be called libre
19:49	Calinou	pehjota, if software is restricted under a NDA, it's not libre
19:49	ecutruin	Calinou, you know.. can we just drop this.. and me go back to working on learning EVIL proprietary software so I can make some awesome stuff?
19:50	marktraceur	ecutruin: You don't need his permission.
19:50	marktraceur	ecutruin: Let me introduce you to the /ignore feature of IRC. :)
19:50	ecutruin	marktraceur, I don't like just dropping out of a conversation. ^-^
19:50	Calinou	telling people you /ignore them publicly is childish, not to mention we can tell who the dramatic ones are on IRC
19:50	marktraceur	Well, Calinou is being a bit obtuse
19:50	marktraceur	There's a way to set a time limit on it in most clients, I think.
19:51	marktraceur	Give him a few hours to cool off and for you to get some work done
19:51	Calinou	whatever, I'll go anyway
19:51	Calinou	and don't insult me after I leave, I'll read the logs :)
19:51	Calinou	bye
19:51	ecutruin	marktraceur, while that is true.. and while I believe I've actually explained my position well enough.. I figured I'd at least ask that we agree to disagree.. if anything just to avoid talking about this in the future.
19:51	sfan5	Calinou: i think pehjota means that most software devs that are paid do (foss) work
19:51	marktraceur	Calinou: It's no fun insulting you when you're not here! :P
19:51	Calinou	I believe such conversations can be constructive
19:51	sfan5	Calinou: (f)oss being " Free/libre software isn't necessarily the published kind."
19:51	Calinou	(freenode policy says otherwise)
19:51	marktraceur	ecutruin: The problem with the
19:52	marktraceur	Er.
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19:52	ecutruin	Calinou, how so?  I've spent what.. hours now going back and forth with you on this.. and I'm still where I was.. you haven't convinced me of anything.
19:52	marktraceur	ecutruin: The problem with most free software advocates is that they cannot accept an "agree to disagree" mindset; I know because I was that way
19:52	marktraceur	ecutruin: Free software is a moral absolute, and there is no grey area, it's black or white
19:52	marktraceur	Or so says most of that movement.
19:52	Calinou	they can bring new ideas, sometimes. Stuff you didn't think about previously
19:53	ecutruin	marktraceur, but moral absolutes don't exist.. or perfect communism would be possible. ^-~
19:53	Calinou	marktraceur, “we're not nazis either” if I had to describe FSF advocates.
19:53	Calinou	lots of people like to dismiss us, this is no fun
19:53	marktraceur	ecutruin: That's a good example of why the free software movement is slowly going downhill.
19:53	* ecutruin	nods.
19:53	Calinou	it's not going downhill
19:53	marktraceur	Calinou: Godwin's law, good talking to you
19:54	marktraceur	:)
19:54	Calinou	we benefit a lot from the open source movement; and many software still describes itself as free/libre
19:54	Calinou	GitHub, despite being proprietary, is a huge boost to us :P
19:54	marktraceur	Calinou: I think it is, with the rise and proliferation of permissive licensing and the (in my opinion) decline of RMS's relevance
19:54	Calinou	permissively licensed software is still free software
19:55	Calinou	(the number of permissive licenses doesn't really increase, if that's what you meant; good thing, we don't want more GPL-incompatible ones)
19:55	Calinou	RMS is still relevant: http://www.wired.com/2015/03/richard-stallman-how-to-make-hardware-designs-free
19:55	marktraceur	Partially relevant.
19:55	Calinou	he'll eventually die like everyone, but that won't kill the free software movement
19:55	marktraceur	Anyway, I have work to do too.
19:55	Calinou	it's a decentralized one, just like the open source movement is
19:56	Calinou	we can continue advocating for free software without RMS
19:56	ecutruin	Calinou, the (F)OSS movement is as old as computers, nearly, and yet the amount of AAA quality games that are such are almost nil.  Hell even with Indie developers (who from my experience are more likely to support (F)OSS), they tend to make their games proprietary.  Ever wonder why?
19:56	Calinou	we will no longer have new great essays from him though :)
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19:56	Calinou	ecutruin, because money is their primary motive.
19:56	Calinou	and that's bad
19:56	ecutruin	Why is that bad?
19:56	ecutruin	Do you live in the world now days?
19:56	Calinou	an ethical business can make money, but that's not what it solely thinks about
19:57	Calinou	(else you end up like Microsoft, Apple, Intel and such)
19:57	ecutruin	I mean...I'm guessing you're below the legal age to be living on your own.  Because if you weren't you would understand that you HAVE to think about money when making a product that takes the majority of your time now days.
19:58	Calinou	well, I'd find an unrelated job. Or even if I was going to develop proprietary software, I'd do it in a B2B manner instead of B2C (because it's less harmful)
19:58	ecutruin	Sure.. I could make my game while having another job and focus on making it "for the community" only.  However, it would probably take 10+ years to finish and by then, its very likely ANOTHER game will have already trumped what I wanted to do as a proprietary works anyways.. belittling most all of my work anyways.
19:59	Calinou	more free games always helps the community; as we currently need them
19:59	ecutruin	No.. we don't.
19:59	* Calinou	would like to develop commercial free software, just to prove ecutruin wrong :) even if it doesn't bring much money
19:59	Calinou	sell More Blocks copies for $10? it's such a great mod, everyone wants it because of the circular saw's magical powers
20:01	ecutruin	See, Calinou, the world is capitalistic.  Currency is the medium in which we trade one person's time for another.  This is humanity in general.  Free games tend to have low quality because they are free.  They don't have income to purchase another person's time to improve the quality.  While this isn't absolute, it is generally true.
20:02	ecutruin	We don't need more low quality games.  We need more game developers that know how to make high quality games and have teams to do so.
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20:03	Calinou	the world is maybe getting less and less capitalistic, it realizes its mistakes
20:03	ecutruin	So saying we need more free games just because they are free is wrong and shows a lack of understanding of how the world works.  Just because something is free, doesn't make it better.
20:03	ecutruin	No, its not.
20:03	Calinou	money is still an universal value, sadly
20:03	ecutruin	If anything the world is getting MORE capitalistic.
20:04	ecutruin	Hell, we're looking at asteroid mining.  We're looking at expanding humanity to other planets.  We're wanting MORE.. not less.
20:04	Calinou	maybe we want more, but without selling our ethics
20:04	Calinou	you do realize that most free games are developed in a team? 0 A.D. is, Xonotic is, Red Eclipse is too…
20:04	* ecutruin	sighs and just shakes his head.
20:04	Calinou	those teams don't exceed 10-20 people usually but they're still teams
20:05	* Calinou	personally despises AAA games… unneeded splash screens, long loading times are their characteristics
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20:06	ecutruin	Calinou, do you think groceries should be free?
20:06	ecutruin	How about McDonalds?
20:06	ecutruin	How about houses?  Land?
20:07	AndroidKris	I know It's not my discussion, but I'd like to put my $0.02 in
20:07	Calinou	groceries should rely on free software, same for house management systems; this doesn't mean they can't sell their food and houses
20:07	ecutruin	Calinou, you dodged my question.
20:08	ecutruin	I specifically asked if GROCERIES, HOUSES, LAND, etc. should be free.
20:08	Calinou	that said, buying from a grocery that uses non-free software is not unethical, because the grocery's owner is the one giving away their freedom, not me
20:08	Calinou	(as I can't access their software to modify it)
20:08	AndroidKris	Wait, maybe I should let this play out a bit more to fully understand the conversation.
20:08	Calinou	don't compare software to physical products. ever.
20:08	ecutruin	Yes.. you do.. because EVERYTHING boils down to time.
20:08	Calinou	AndroidKris, no, this is like reddit, chime your opinion in without even reading the other users' comments! :)
20:08	AndroidKris	Ha, reddit is the shiiz
20:08	AndroidKris	funny stuff man
20:09	AndroidKris	That's also why I have never commented on anything on reddit. I don't like to bust in without knowing all the facts.
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20:10	ecutruin	Here.. a better analogy.  Do you think all recipes, exact recipes should be shared?
20:10	Calinou	that's another thing; it has nothing to do with software or culture
20:10	ecutruin	That cooks should not be allowed to have special recipes that make their food unique?
20:11	ecutruin	No.. its very relevant.  What's your stance?
20:11	Calinou	but maybe it shouldn't be allowed, due to potential health issues.
20:11	Calinou	look, most laws force you to publish ingredients currently (in imprecise form)
20:11	ecutruin	Ingredients and recipes are different.
20:11	ecutruin	Recipes are a process.. ingredients are the material.
20:12	ecutruin	Is it alright for cooks to have secret recipes?
20:12	twoelk	as far as I'm understanding Calinou he thinks paying for hardware is ethical but paying for software not (hardware and software not only in computer sense)
20:12	Calinou	twoelk, I'm talking about free as in freedom software, not free as in beer
20:12	twoelk	or rather charging
20:12	Calinou	there is nothing wrong in buying free software
20:12	ecutruin	But when you're paying for a meal, you're paying for both.. kind of like buying a computer and getting the built-in software.
20:13	ecutruin	Calinou, answer my question.  Is it alright for cooks to have secret recipes?
20:13	twoelk	ah, invent something and emidiatly tell everybody how to copy and make me obsolete
20:13	est31	ecutruin, this is something different
20:13	Calinou	we could compare the recipes to source code of software; thus, maybe it isn't ethical, but maybe it is because those aren't really comparable.
20:13	Calinou	I can't give a definite answer on this
20:14	ecutruin	Calinou, I didn't ask anything about software.  I asked specifically about cooks and recipes.
20:14	Calinou	twoelk, you can also do crowdfunding campaigns, “pay what you want” system
20:14	Calinou	or the good old nagware :) (nah, don't do it)
20:14	est31	the cook question very well applies to cloud software
20:14	ecutruin	And yes, there is a point to this.. but until the question is answered, its pointless to explain.
20:14	est31	and this is something that is unrelated to OSS
20:14	Calinou	est31, “cloud” software definitely should be available to everyone
20:14	Calinou	it's not unrelated, because it poses the problem of SaaS
20:14	twoelk	some of the nagging in nagwarte was well done and fun
20:15	Calinou	server-side software is secondary in the quest of software freedom, but it's still important
20:15	Calinou	I think GitHub, Transifex and Coverity should all publish their back-end because those serve a practical purpose…
20:15	ecutruin	Calinou, I've asked you to respond to my question three times.  If you refuse to.  Then I guess the discussion is over.
20:15	est31	Calinou, you believe all software in the world should be free to inspect and edit?
20:15	Calinou	currently they publish only some front-end bits
20:15	Calinou	est31, yes, like it or not. Maybe I'm destroying your business :)
20:15	Warr1024	holy shit, is this proprietary vs. free thing still going on?
20:15	Calinou	ecutruin, I'm not forced to answer questions, just like you isn't forced to answer my questions
20:16	ecutruin	Then we're done talking. :3
20:16	Calinou	Warr1024, to me, this looks like a constructive discussion, nothing wrong
20:16	Calinou	no one has asked a Minetest-related question so it's not against the rules
20:16	Warr1024	naw, it's cool, I'm just surprised you guys still have the energy for it :-)
20:16	* twoelk	is parsing the log to find ecutruin's question
20:17	Calinou	twoelk, the one about cooks' secret recipes
20:17	ecutruin	You refuse to actually answer a simple question, dodging around it and trying to go back to software.  I planned on explaining things in comparison, but it seems you don't want to.  So.. conversation over, I guess.
20:17		AndroidKris joined #minetest
20:17	Calinou	my focus is software and culture (and hardware, although we don't have much free hardware yet), not food
20:17	Calinou	I don't know of any “Free Food Foundation” :)
20:18	ecutruin	Calinou, I didn't ask your focus.  I asked you a specific question.  Its for me to explain the relation.  All I asked.. is your stance on it.
20:18	xenkey	Still at it Calinou ?
20:18	ecutruin	Obviously.. you cannot come to a decision.. which is funny.. because it is the same. :3
20:18	twoelk	be brave Calinou, make a statement
20:19	Calinou	it's strange, you seem to be dismissive of me, but on the other hand, you want me to answer a question :s
20:19	est31	For me, the border between communism and open source lais at the point where you start requiring external services to be open source
20:19	ecutruin	I'm trying to get you to understand something. ^-^  That's all.  If you cannot answer, then it explains enough that I feel find just ending the conversation all together.
20:19	est31	and communism is bad history has shown
20:20	tpe	Software vs. Food. Never has "apples to oranges" been a more apt phrase.
20:20	* twoelk	wonders if Calinou is part of the secret recipe
20:20	ecutruin	tpe, I'm not comparing food to software.  I'm comparing "recipes" to software.
20:20	AndroidKris	So what does the cost of tea in china have to do with it?
20:20	Warr1024	recipes aren't 100% secret, either.
20:20	AndroidKris	LOL
20:20	est31	neither is software
20:20	Calinou	est31, free/libre software isn't communism because nothing prevents you from keeping the profits to yourself (when you sell software)
20:20	ecutruin	Exactly. ^-^
20:21	Calinou	you can also keep the copyright monopoly (eg. copyleft license) to yourself
20:21	Calinou	same for trademarks, which aren't incompatible with libre software
20:21	Calinou	and the way USSR did communism was not really communism
20:21	Calinou	like the nazis claimed they did “socialism”
20:21	est31	GOOODWIIIIN
20:21	* Calinou	earns the 2nd Godwin point. Double-godwin!
20:21	ecutruin	Anyways.  I'm out guys.  Going to go back to games and Unity learning.  I don't see a reason in staying a part of this discussion.
20:22	twoelk	they did sort of but they added other toxic ingredients
20:22	AndroidKris	Yeah, a crazy czar (ussr) and Hitler (nazi germany)
20:23	AndroidKris	A leader with his own agenda that had his own beliefs as to how it should work.
20:23	twoelk	now we might never know what the comparism was heading at :-(
20:23	Warr1024	ecutruin: good luck with your project :-)
20:24	ecutruin	Thanks Warr1024.  Sorry for dragging this on so long.  I really should have stopped it sooner.
20:24	AndroidKris	There is no perfect system (government, software, recipe, etc) The perfect form of government has no real lable.
20:24	AndroidKris	label
20:25	twoelk	actually I think each situation may need it's special form of government. sometimes you need a general sometimes a diplomat
20:26	Calinou	I'm not saying free software is perfect, there still are many unknown areas, but it's a better and less anachronic model to me
20:26	twoelk	its wrong to think one solution will be good for all times
20:26	Warr1024	communism was supposed to be the solution to problems with existing market economies at the time; free software is a gift economy to begin with, so I don't see how communism would apply.
20:27	est31	"gift economy" good term
20:27	twoelk	I always rather thought of free software as shared knowledge system
20:27	Calinou	it's exactly shared knowledge
20:28	Calinou	bye now :) night
20:28	AndroidKris	Flaws are part of every system, it's the working around and making the flaws work for you in order to make the system sustainable (long term) that makes the system beautiful (Like a great recipe that was discovered by accident because the chef didn't have the right ingredients to make it the he was taught, so he improvised and it came out better than before)
20:28	xenkey	I think we should all use windows and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong
20:29	AndroidKris	^^communism
20:29	AndroidKris	at it's finest
20:29	xenkey	yup
20:29	xenkey	I think we should all use linux and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong
20:29	xenkey	what do you think now though
20:29	AndroidKris	Still communism
20:30	twoelk	and yet I spent five years doing research on how certain churches were built and finaly published a sort of flowchart - and - had mixed feelings when others used it for their research
20:30		AndroidKris joined #minetest
20:30	est31	twoelk, so you rather like that flowchart to be not used?
20:30	AndroidKris	That is you, making a decision for everyone. Weather or not it is the correct decision is neither here nor there.
20:30	AndroidKris	The decision itself is what makes it communism
20:30	twoelk	sometimes XD
20:31	est31	so why did you publish it then?
20:31	twoelk	especially when it is used to proove things I dont approve of ;P
20:33	twoelk	I was proud and wanted to show what I had spent so much time on but didn't think of how others might use it. Which is great but also frightening
20:33	AndroidKris	Communism can be a great government, if used correctly. The same with Socialism, Oligarchy, Monarchy, Democracy, etc.
20:35	AndroidKris	Spiderman reference. "With great power, comes great responsibility."
20:35	AndroidKris	Did I get disconnected without xchat telling me?
20:35	Jordach	nope
20:35	AndroidKris	nope, there it is.
20:35	AndroidKris	Lag
20:36	twoelk	dictatorship was a usefull tool the way the greeks first used it but a dangerous one as the learned later
20:37	AndroidKris	All forms of governmental control can be dangerous, when used for means that are not in the best interest of the people.
20:38	est31	government and control describe the same thing
20:38	est31	there is no state without control
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20:39	AndroidKris	Not necessarily, but only when the population can "get along" and come to terms that suit everyone.
20:39	YvesLevier	I wanna dynamite a mountain.  Any mod you recommand?
20:39	AndroidKris	technic
20:39	AndroidKris	build a nuke.
20:39	AndroidKris	BOOM
20:40	twoelk	a wonderfull example of failed communism is the commenwealth of that bunch of puritans that fell of the Mayflower at Plymouth rock. They only managed to pay their debts of the voyage after changing  to a more capitalistic production system
20:40	est31	there is no nuke for technic
20:41		ElectronLibre left #minetest
20:41	AndroidKris	I thought I saw a nuke built with technic on a youtube video the other day.
20:41	YvesLevier	est31: how to level a mountain i want to get rid then?
20:41	est31	YvesLevier, use TNT
20:41	est31	it only has to be activated
20:41	twoelk	use WorldEdit
20:41	AndroidKris	That's a LOT of tnt.
20:41	AndroidKris	^^
20:41	est31	AndroidKris link?
20:42	YvesLevier	est31: need a mod or if this already in our inventory?
20:42	AndroidKris	Lemme search history.
20:42	AndroidKris	brb
20:42	YvesLevier	twoelk: plz tell me more about worldedit plz
20:42	est31	YvesLevier, you only have to set a setting
20:43	est31	YvesLevier, https://github.com/Uberi/MineTest-WorldEdit
20:43	est31	great tool
20:43	YvesLevier	on it
20:43	est31	like cheating though
20:43	est31	so depends on what you want
20:44	twoelk	that one; usefull and powerfull, good tool to destroy hours of work, use with care
20:45	twoelk	https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=572 <- forum thread for WorldEdit
20:45		LazyJ joined #minetest
20:45	harrison	i hate the demeaning ritualesque nature of inhabiting this form
20:46	harrison	and long for the transcendence of destiny
20:46		ron_montilla joined #minetest
20:46	harrison	awake!
20:46	AndroidKris	est31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfBwygvEJNA
20:46	harrison	theawokening.,com
20:46	AndroidKris	It's a nuclear reactor meltdown, my mistake
20:46	harrison	theawokening.com
20:46	est31	seen that
20:46	est31	yea
20:50	AndroidKris	harrison, what is theawokening.com? My connection isn't strong enough to load it and I'm curious.lol
20:51		AndroidKris joined #minetest
20:53	twoelk	if harrison is up to his usuall stuff, your eyes may be in for a psychodelic surprise
20:54	* twoelk	hasn't tried this link but remembers others in the past
20:54		AndroidKris joined #minetest
20:54	AndroidKris	Well, as you can see by my constant disconnection and reconnection, I have a crappy internet connection, so that website isn't loading for me.
20:55	ron_montilla	about that
20:55	AndroidKris	What about it?
20:55	ron_montilla	how is minetest over crappy connections?
20:56	AndroidKris	Crappy,
20:56	AndroidKris	lol
20:56	ron_montilla	is it different somehow from minecraft
20:56	ron_montilla	?
20:56	AndroidKris	I play locally when my connection is bad
20:56	ron_montilla	I mean, is it better or worse
20:56	ron_montilla	or we can't compare?
20:56		luizrpgluiz joined #minetest
20:56	AndroidKris	It's access to a server, No matter what the game is, it all depends on the amount of information that gets exchanged between your pc and the server.
20:57	AndroidKris	Yeah, it's comparing apples to oranges, but both fruits are still being thrown at a wall through a volley ball net.
20:57	luizrpgluiz	it's called the program to display the map in 2D?
20:57	ron_montilla	yeah, but the amount is bigger or not? that's the point
20:57	ron_montilla	anyways
20:57	ron_montilla	cool game, just testing it right now
20:58	AndroidKris	It is indeed very cool. you should look into some of the mods.
20:58	ron_montilla	yeah, i'm doing that right now
20:58	AndroidKris	luizrpgluiz, what are you talking about?
21:00	luizrpgluiz	in forum minetest, has an image of a server map in 2D aerial view
21:01	AndroidKris	link?
21:02	luizrpgluiz	https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&amp;t=11431
21:04	AndroidKris	That is cool, I'd like to have a program or mod or whatever that can do that.
21:04	est31	there is minetestmapper
21:04	AndroidKris	Like to have an areal view of my local map
21:05	est31	but by default, this is only outside of minetest itself
21:06	AndroidKris	Explain?
21:06	est31	as in: you can't access the map from the game
21:06	est31	you run a command, and its computed outside of minetest in a separate tool
21:06	est31	not being integrated
21:07	est31	as in, you have a tool that displays a map when you right click
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21:07	AndroidKris	gotcha.
21:07	AndroidKris	I just found it on github and wiki.
21:07	AndroidKris	gonna read a bit
21:09	twoelk	there are some tools and scripts to aid in using the mapper mentioned in the forum thread
21:09		luizrpgluiz left #minetest
21:10	* twoelk	remembers he needs to fix his mapper tool to work with american date notation style :-(
21:13		frecel joined #minetest
21:15	AndroidKris	So on the wiki for that minetest mapper, it says there is a default mapper that comes in .minetest/util folder. i don't even have that folder. So i think I'll download the c++ written mapper tool and make that folder.lol
21:20		steph1 joined #minetest
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21:29	YvesLevier	FANTASTIC!  Thx everybody :)
21:39	catninja	well is oldcoder asleep?
21:46		Megaf joined #minetest
21:50	xenkey	Ok
21:56	est31	nooooooo
21:56	est31	supertuxkart still uses svn
21:57	Megaf	Hi all :D
21:57		Sockbat left #minetest
22:02	Megaf	Hi est31
22:02	Megaf	Hey LazyJ
22:03	est31	hey
22:03	ron_montilla	what is the key for running
22:03	ron_montilla	lol
22:03	Megaf	e
22:03	Megaf	k to activate then hold e to run
22:03	ron_montilla	tks
22:04	Megaf	est31: LazyJ: What do you think about the server console thing?
22:04	Megaf	ron_montilla: You're welcome
22:04	est31	Megaf, see my github comment on the according issue
22:06	Megaf	!server Megaf
22:06	MinetestBot	Megaf: Megaf Server v4.0 | mt.megaf.info:30003 | Clients: 0/9, 0/1 | Version: 0.4.12-Megaf / MegafXploreNext | Ping: 6ms
22:11	Megaf	est31: right, that seems like over complicated
22:11	Megaf	the server already outputs the way it should, now is just a matter of inputing
22:12	Megaf	perhaps it could use an OS command to read the input, after detecting the OS (might be at compilation time, of course)
22:12	Megaf	we could use "read" from Shell Script for example
22:12	est31	that already works
22:12	est31	or no
22:13	est31	yes perhaps that would be possible too
22:13	Megaf	we have output, but we can not iinput
22:13	est31	but a clean API is much better here
22:13	est31	everything else is hacking around
22:13	Megaf	so, read will read and the server commands could be done with simple shell script/powershell commands
22:13	est31	I dont get you
22:14	Megaf	well, do you know the read command from shell script?
22:14	Megaf	it gets what you type and store it in a variable
22:15	est31	yes
22:15	Megaf	so, we could use shell script to interpeter user input and translate to server commands
22:15	est31	but that doesnt work when server is writing while you are writing too
22:15	Megaf	in a similar fashion the IRC mod does, perhaps
22:15	est31	will clutter up
22:15	Megaf	oh
22:15	Megaf	indeed
22:15	est31	therefore we need ncurses
22:15	Megaf	unless as said, we use two threads?
22:16	est31	those will already be neccessary
22:16	est31	two threads change nothing at the restricted API we have for the console
22:16	Megaf	I wonder if a Lua mod could implement that
22:16	est31	meaning stdin and stdout
22:16	est31	not at all
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22:16	est31	lua isn't suited for this task
22:17	est31	this tasks main part is interfacing
22:17	est31	interfacing with the console, with internet (for a ssh console) etc
22:17	est31	so for that its best to have a c based API
22:19	Megaf	I see
22:22	Megaf	well, thanks for the insights, I have to go now. Good night all
22:22	LazyJ	A belated. "Howdy", Megaf. Sorry, I was dealing with trouble on my server.
22:22	Megaf	Heya LazyJ
22:23	Megaf	what kind of trouble?
22:23	LazyJ	What's the link for the "console" issue?
22:23	est31	LazyJ, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2338
22:24	Megaf	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2338
22:24	LazyJ	We had a kid come on to our server saying that he was making a YouTube video and asking interview-like questions.
22:24	LazyJ	One of my staff overreacted and started scolding and admonishing the kid.
22:25	LazyJ	Then a new player used a very mild swear word and the situation became inflamed.
22:25	Megaf	If I had a penny for every time someone said one was recording a video for youtube I would have 10 pennies
22:25	Megaf	LazyJ: heh, that happens
22:26	LazyJ	I've been trying to deal with both sides. This particular staff member is a pitbull. Good to have around but at times a bit too aggressive.
22:26	Megaf	I rather dont have staff
22:26	Megaf	99.9% of my staff is away
22:27	LazyJ	On the other side, I've got a kid who has done nothing harmful to the server but is getting raked over the coals for a small transgression in courtesy.
22:27		turtleman_ joined #minetest
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22:27	Johnsen2	~tell Wings_ I know XD
22:27	ShadowBot	Johnsen2: O.K.
22:28	Megaf	est31: could this help? http://invisible-island.net/cdk/
22:29	Megaf	and perhaps this http://invisible-island.net/dialog/
22:29	est31	Megaf, right now I'm doing srp authentication
22:29	Megaf	est31: cool!
22:29	est31	you could try it and say whether it works :)
22:29	est31	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2620
22:30	est31	most of the stuff should work, only details remain
22:31	ron_montilla	well I was thinking minetest already had somekind of server setup from text console, don't it?
22:32	Megaf	ron_montilla: none at all
22:32		frecel joined #minetest
22:32	Megaf	est31: I will tomorrow, now I really have to go, cya
22:33	ron_montilla	that's sad
22:33	ron_montilla	hmm
22:34	ron_montilla	i'm viewing the topic about it now...
22:35	LazyJ	Hmm... I've seen ShadowNinja's irc_commands and plan to install it later.
22:36	LazyJ	Security issues are a very real concern, even it it's just a game. Many players have put many hours of effort into creating things. Nothing as exciting as state secrets but still stuff that is valuable to the players.
22:37	LazyJ	Many times I have wished that Minetest had more default administration tools.
22:38	ron_montilla	hey!
22:38	LazyJ	Just as players clamor for more mods to be added to the default game, admins would like more tools to deal with the day-to-day hassles and headaches that arise ingame while the admins have to be away at their jobs earning the money that pays for the server's operation.
22:38	ron_montilla	i found something
22:38	ron_montilla	there IS a console version, I think that's what the guy in the topic was talking about
22:39	ron_montilla	I found it on the sources... right at the bin folder
22:39	ron_montilla	there is the minetest executable and the "minetestserver" one, that fits the description
22:40	ron_montilla	oh, i see, no input do..
22:40	LazyJ	ron_montillal the "minetestserver" in the bin directory is Minetest without the GUI.
22:42	LazyJ	What we are discussing is having the means to do ingame-admin stuff without having to log into the game, such as banning players from the terminal or IRC instead of having to log into the game to do it.
22:42	ron_montilla	well if one would just input from there, one cold just run it on a tmux or screen session...
22:42	ron_montilla	oh I see
22:42	ron_montilla	I got it now
22:42	LazyJ	;)
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