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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-03-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 exio4 Warr1024: (moving because going offtopic) I guess you know what generics are, right?
00:03 Warr1024 yeah.  I like 'em in C#, dunno much about how they might differ on in the C++ world, though.
00:04 exio4 well, generics are also polymorphism
00:04 exio4 "parametric polymorphism" is the 'right term'
00:04 Warr1024 ah, I never really thought of them that way.
00:04 exio4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/Parametric_polymorphism
00:04 Warr1024 generics were always just generics to me :-)
00:04 exio4 I don't really like to deal with subtyping that much
00:04 * exio4 thinks its typing rules are too complex
00:05 exio4 then you have covariant arrays in C#/Java (and C++?) that lead to runtime errors
00:05 exio4 co(ntra)variance is hard to deal with
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00:24 MinetestBot [git] Warr1024 -> minetest/minetest: Configurable automatic texture scaling and filtering at load time. 1e4fb80 http://git.io/higs (2015-03-20T20:21:42-04:00)
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00:35 DI3HARD139 Hi Enke
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00:44 hmmmm hey modders, I was wondering what kind of interface you'd like an improved PseudoRandom to have
00:45 hmmmm my current ideas include adding a "type" option to the PseudoRandom constructor, or making an entirely new object
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00:45 hmmmm what would you want to see?
00:45 hmmmm and what should it be called?
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01:21 YvesLevier Trying to join a pacific public room to show minetest to a friend
01:21 YvesLevier Any suggestion?
01:22 YvesLevier VanessaE: ^
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01:44 MinetestBot [git] gregorycu -> minetest/minetest: Optimize minetest.get_(all)_craft_recipe(s) 03e0dd3 http://git.io/hiME (2015-03-20T21:41:18-04:00)
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02:50 Warr1024 is there a good source for windows nightly builds?
02:54 YvesLevier Warr1024: You mean microsoft?
02:56 YvesLevier gtg sleep - gnite all :)
02:56 est31 nite
03:04 WarrTab Yeah, the microsoft kind of windows
03:04 WarrTab I got friends on that platform who might like more recent builds...
03:06 WarrTab Whoops, I'm hopping clients randomly
03:06 Warr1024 I guess that's the problem with having another irc open in an ssh session...
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07:36 Krock moin
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09:37 Krock https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=4401 isn't outdated anymore
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10:50 TenPlus1 Hi folks...  can anyone tell me how to merge groups or add to a group once it has been defined... ???
10:54 TenPlus1 I am trying to change 1 value inside of the group for multiple objects without having to rewrite it out each time
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12:15 Krock \o/ GitHub unicorn!
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12:41 luizrpgluiz hi
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13:00 MinetestBot [git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Connect rails with connect_to_raillike and shorten the codes 709f4a5 http://git.io/hXrq (2015-03-21T22:59:27+10:00)
13:01 Zeno` The plural of code (in the context of a programming language) is... code
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13:06 Zeno` I trust you won't write "codes" again, Krock
13:06 Zeno` lol
13:06 Krock I'll stop writing codes, yes.
13:06 Zeno` phew
13:07 * Zeno` can sleep soundly now
13:12 Krock amazing. since when is the grafiting grid counting down every single craft-step when I middle-click? :D
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13:13 VanessaE Krock: since forever :-/
13:13 Krock no, in 0.4.11, it was just jumping from nothing to 10 in one step
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15:33 MinetestBot [git] Warr1024 -> minetest/minetest: Fix composite textures with texture_min_size. Moved upscaling of textures to later in the process, when images are converted to textures, instead of right after image load, so the original image is unmodified for generateImagePart. 837a2e1 http://git.io/h14c (2015-03-22T01:31:01+10:00)
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15:41 justas2 hi
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16:17 Krock Jordach, the footer font is too big on your site IMO
16:18 xenkey What site?
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16:18 Krock his site
16:19 Krock a site in the web, a website
16:21 xenkey What's an internet?
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16:29 MinetestBot [git] jp@localhost.localdomain -> minetest/minetest_game: Optimize boat model 9eb9502 http://git.io/h1P6 (2015-03-21T17:28:36+01:00)
16:30 xenkey uh what
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16:36 xenkey Can i set the motd?
16:38 sfan5 xenkey: yes, motd setting in minetest.conf
16:38 xenkey Can I set it on the fly?
16:54 Krock xenkey, yes, temporary by using the command /set motd <text>
16:54 xenkey is there a save config command?
16:55 Krock maybe with the mod luacmd
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16:56 xenkey I need some general server management mods
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17:48 YvesLevier Hey :)
17:49 YvesLevier is there a way i can log off myself without shoutup my server?
17:50 est31 YvesLevier, use a headless server
17:50 est31 YvesLevier, do you know command line?
17:50 YvesLevier i dont
17:50 YvesLevier i know terminal modee
17:50 est31 which OS are you?
17:50 est31 windows?
17:50 YvesLevier Linux
17:50 est31 ah thats good
17:50 YvesLevier of course
17:51 fireglow !seen davedevils
17:51 MinetestBot fireglow: davedevils was last seen at 2014-11-04 17:13:28 UTC on #minetest-de
17:51 fireglow humm
17:51 est31 yes really good
17:51 YvesLevier near than 20 years i cant smell Winchos
17:51 fireglow his mod https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopi​c.php?f=9&amp;t=10456&amp;p=159758 is a bit broken
17:51 est31 so YvesLevier can you start terminal?
17:51 YvesLevier done
17:52 est31 ok now type minetest --version
17:52 est31 what does it say?
17:52 YvesLevier 0 4 9
17:52 est31 YvesLevier, which linux distro are you?
17:52 YvesLevier 14.04 of course
17:53 est31 so ubuntu?
17:53 YvesLevier sure
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17:53 YvesLevier im interested in Arch but dont have time
17:53 est31 ok, this isnt related to start server headless, but still good to have, as most recent version is best
17:53 YvesLevier Welcome Jacques
17:54 YvesLevier can reformulate plz?
17:54 Jcq Hello
17:54 est31 YvesLevier, do "sudo apt-add ppa ppa:minetestdevs/stable"
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17:55 est31 then do sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
17:55 est31 then do minetest --version again
17:55 YvesLevier apt-add not found
17:55 YvesLevier min
17:55 est31 ah sorry do "sudo add-apt-repository" instead
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17:56 est31 so "sudo add-apt-repository ppa:minetestdevs/stable"
17:57 xenkey Could somebody suggest a 3d torches mod and a general mod for server administration? I'm using redsand but that actually supplies very little in terms of management.
17:57 YvesLevier im sudo su
17:57 Calinou carbone_torches, xenkey
17:57 Calinou https://notabug.org/calinou/carbone_torches
17:57 Calinou just download .zip, install mod and enable
17:57 Calinou it replaces already placed torches
17:57 est31 YvesLevier, then you can still do the sudo
17:57 Calinou https://notabug.org/Calinou/car​bone_torches/archive/master.zip
17:58 YvesLevier didnt know
17:58 xenkey Calinou: Alright, I'll trust you and blindly add it
17:58 xenkey What about server administration?
17:58 YvesLevier est31: i think i got it
18:00 Calinou you don't need to do anything to use it
18:00 YvesLevier est31: Then : apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade?
18:00 est31 yes
18:01 Calinou sudo apt update; sudo apt full-upgrade
18:01 Calinou this is shorter, has colours
18:01 Calinou works in 14.04 and newer
18:01 YvesLevier looks working. but not ended yet
18:01 YvesLevier thx Calinou
18:01 YvesLevier (marci)
18:02 YvesLevier shall i close Minetest?
18:02 YvesLevier est31: ended - 1 sec
18:02 Calinou yes
18:03 YvesLevier est31: 0 4 12
18:03 est31 YvesLevier, great :)
18:03 est31 now to your original question
18:03 YvesLevier listening
18:04 est31 type "minetest --world list"
18:04 est31 now you get on the left a list of names
18:04 Calinou it is minetest --worldlist
18:04 Calinou I think
18:05 Calinou nvm
18:05 Calinou you are right, est31
18:05 Calinou so you can't call a world list?
18:05 YvesLevier sry telphon
18:05 est31 Calinou I admit it would be cleaner that way
18:05 est31 perhaps world-list
18:06 YvesLevier Hes a minetest friend so he can hold
18:06 est31 chose the name your server is and do "minetest --server --worldname NAME"
18:06 est31 then connect and enjoy :)
18:07 YvesLevier then "minetest --worldlist"
18:07 est31 no
18:07 est31 first minetest --world list
18:07 est31 then select name
18:07 est31 then "minetest --server --worldname NAME"
18:07 est31 actually you only need the last command if you know the name
18:08 YvesLevier to minetest --world list
18:08 YvesLevier i see no world
18:08 YvesLevier i continue?
18:10 YvesLevier Its listening - then i log as client
18:10 YvesLevier Right?
18:10 YvesLevier est31: ^
18:11 est31 YvesLevier, when you see no world, your configuration is weird
18:11 est31 YvesLevier, how do you usually start minetest?
18:12 Krock I wish it was possible to instant-join a world/server with the GUI, using console commands
18:12 YvesLevier est31: ./Minetest/bin/minetest
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18:12 est31 aww
18:13 Baraa hi all
18:13 est31 then replace minetest with ./Minetest/bin/minetest .
18:13 est31 Baraa, good to see you connected here!
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18:13 Baraa est31 now i am here
18:14 Baraa thak
18:14 Krock \o/ it's possible! --go --worldname <myworld> :D
18:14 est31 Baraa, perhaps ask your question.
18:14 Baraa thanks**
18:15 Baraa how can i do server
18:15 est31 Krock, the issue was that YvesLevier started minetest for the server in another way than usual, and one way was an in-place build, and the other was a system wide build
18:15 Krock okay, I've just had a self-talk
18:16 YvesLevier est31: i get to a new world
18:16 Baraa est
18:16 YvesLevier but it works
18:16 est31 YvesLevier have you done it with ./Minetest/bin/minetest ?
18:17 est31 (e.g. "./Minetest/bin/minetest --server --worldname NAME"
18:17 est31 )
18:17 YvesLevier est31: ./Minetest/bin/minetest
18:17 YvesLevier My client also fall in same game
18:18 YvesLevier not our game
18:18 Baraa est31 how can i do server
18:18 est31 I gtg now, bye!
18:19 est31 Baraa, I'm sure someone else will help you
18:19 Baraa est read my question
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18:21 Baraa guys who has an idea about doing a server
18:23 fireglow Baraa: have you read this? http://wiki.minetest.net/Setting_up_a_server
18:23 Baraa no
18:23 fireglow mmm, maybe you'll find your answers there
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19:57 person Minetest is fun!
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20:41 Calinou https://cloud.openmailbox.org/public.php?servic​e=files&amp;t=3ab9da3d4394a83a9b8c445f665b682a
20:41 Calinou lol
20:41 VanessaE holy
20:42 VanessaE I'd say that's a small problem....
20:42 fireglow lol
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21:42 Johnsen2 PEOPLE HELP ME
21:43 Johnsen2 irc.inchra.net is getting outa control!!! admins taking over IRC!!!
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21:44 Johnsen2 Another brick! help me
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21:49 Sokomine what's up?
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21:50 Sokomine well, admins are supposed to have control over their servers. that's why they are admins. and this is freenode? what's up with the inchra-net? server change or whatever?
21:50 fireglow Sokomine: thoughts? https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=173580#p173580
21:50 Johnsen2 BUT STEPHY IS TAKING OVER ME... :( and telling me bad things :(
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21:52 ElectronLibre Johnsen2, check their masks (name!user@adress). Do you recognize it?
21:52 VanessaE Johnsen2: the IRC channel was originally supposed to be primarily for admins'/moderators' use anyway
21:53 Sokomine fireglow: hmm. that request does not really make sense to me. there *may* be situations where another player is just standing in the way, thus making building more troublesome, or even attacking the player. if it's more than a young child becoming overenthusiastic, it's a job for the admin/moderator of the server anyway...
21:53 fireglow well, we have that sort of intruder all the time
21:53 fireglow idk why they all come to our server
21:54 ElectronLibre I might know who it is...
21:54 Sokomine my houses are there so that people can look at them and enjoy them. locked doors...may sometimes *look* better on cellars. if there's no protection for items in furnaces, some manufacturing areas may have to be closed to the public, but that can be done with other blocks as well...
21:54 ElectronLibre Johnsen2, could you copy their mask and send it to me by msg please?
21:55 Sokomine hm. normal furnaces are protected now anyway afaik. that ought to be safe enough then?
21:55 Sokomine they come to all servers, fireglow
21:55 fireglow they are?
21:56 ElectronLibre I had troubles with someone a few weeks ago. I just want to check if it could be them.
21:57 Johnsen2 VanessaE, stephy kepts kicking me and she kicked me on mtz and said for me to stfu
21:58 Johnsen2 Electron, how do i do that?
21:59 ElectronLibre Type /whois <nickname> and find the mask (user@adress). Just send it to me by msg and I will know if it's who it could be.
22:00 VanessaE Johnsen2: actually, deezl was the last one to kick you from IRC, not stephy.
22:00 AntTerminator ok
22:00 AntTerminator let me mutate you into a ant!
22:00 Johnsen2 VanessaE, ok
22:01 ElectronLibre (Maybe you're just being annoying to them, we don't know.)
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22:15 hmmmm VanessaE:  what format in Lua would you find most useful for a string of bytes
22:15 hmmmm a string type?  a table-array of integers?
22:15 VanessaE what is the meaning of the bytes?
22:16 hmmmm oh wait, nevermind, dumb question, I'll just follow the example of the sha1 password api
22:16 hmmmm vanessae, randomness
22:16 VanessaE well in that case I'd have suggested either a table of integers, or a read-stream function with a seek option.
22:17 jin_xi roadmaps and lots of planning... idk it often comes out different.
22:17 hmmmm erm, wait a minuet
22:17 jin_xi why not try another mechanism? i think mt should try organizing a game jam for games based on mt engine
22:17 hmmmm translatePassword spits out a base64 string?
22:17 jin_xi see the issues coming up with people trying different stuff
22:18 hmmmm this is what's transferred over the wire?
22:19 hmmmm am I the only one who finds it a little weird to not have an established mechanism for transfering raw bytes to Lua?
22:26 VanessaE hmmmm: that's why I suggested the read-and-seek idea.  like file I/O?
22:26 hmmmm eewwww
22:26 VanessaE it wouldn't work so well over in realtime the 'net though
22:26 hmmmm yeah this is gonna be a bit of a problem
22:27 hmmmm oh i know, sapier added that lua serialization thing
22:27 hmmmm I think we need to figure out a consistent, solid format to representing a string of bytes that can be arbitrary data in Lua
22:28 VanessaE careful with lua serialization
22:28 hmmmm it's going to be used a lot in the client-server script RPC mechanism
22:28 VanessaE luajit can't serailize blocks of data > 64k
22:28 hmmmm that should be okay
22:28 VanessaE oh ok, so that shouldn't be an issue then
22:29 VanessaE a table is the easiest Lua construct as far as reading/writing arbitrary raw data
22:29 hmmmm easiest for you, but one of the least efficient
22:29 VanessaE right
22:29 hmmmm a table is a hashtable don't forget
22:30 VanessaE yeah I know
22:30 hmmmm I think we could possibly go with making it work like file I/O
22:30 hmmmm hrmm
22:30 hmmmm nah
22:30 VanessaE remember in the old BASIC days, how you'd DIM foo(bar) ?
22:30 hmmmm yeah
22:31 VanessaE what if you had a function like that in lua?  rawblock foo(bar)  (named foo, made to be bar bytes long)
22:31 hmmmm the problem with making it work like a file is that every time you'd want to read a byte, that would force a lua -> C -> lua transition
22:32 VanessaE well rawblock(foo, bar)  rather
22:32 hmmmm we couldn't have picked a worse language
22:32 VanessaE and then readblock(foo, n) or writeblock(foo, n) where n, if supplied, is the index to read/write at?
22:32 hmmmm that troll guy who always keeps saying "should've used javascript" is annoying but completely correct
22:33 VanessaE you mean lamef---- I can't say it :)
22:33 hmmmm yeah.
22:33 hmmmm http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3815213​/how-to-store-binary-data-in-a-lua-string
22:34 VanessaE in the C64 days, we had stash and fetch commands for the expansion memory - you'd copy ("fetch") a block from expansion to the local RAM, read or write it as you see fit, and then if needed copy ("stash") it back to the expansion
22:35 VanessaE normal local LDA/STA/etc operations were used to manipulate the block once it was copied to local RAM
22:35 VanessaE maybe something similar would be useful for Lua
22:35 hmmmm scratching my head right now
22:36 hmmmm maybe I misunderstand base64 encoding, but that's 64 to represent 256, so base64 encoded data should be 4 times larger if I'm not mistaken
22:37 hmmmm ah no okay
22:37 VanessaE oh fuck no
22:37 hmmmm it packs the bits
22:37 hmmmm so there a few possibilites
22:38 hmmmm store binary data in a lua userbuffer and make a small set of APIs to 'grab' a block from it
22:38 hmmmm and then it's transparently treated like a file or something from the end user's perspective
22:38 hmmmm like you were saying
22:38 hmmmm or.... base64 encode the shit out of all the data
22:39 hmmmm or, make escapes for all the problematic string sequences in lua
22:39 VanessaE ehhh..........
22:40 hmmmm either way it's going to end up in a table
22:41 VanessaE why not keep it in a raw data block?
22:41 hmmmm ?
22:41 hmmmm I think I have to redesign my RPC mechanism, frankly
22:41 VanessaE well, if you fetch a block of data from...whatever...  and pass it to lua, why not leave it as a block of raw data that the modder could then translate to a table only if they need to?
22:41 hmmmm this isn't working out if lua has to touch raw data
22:41 VanessaE (otherwise the modder could directly process the data if they want)
22:42 hmmmm yeah
22:42 hmmmm I don't think the user should ever need to process this raw data technically
22:43 VanessaE (or provide two calls, one for raw, one for cooked-into-a-table)
22:44 hmmmm you're right though, this isn't necessary at all
22:45 hmmmm it's just my desire to make the interface complete and orthogonal
22:45 est31 btw what do you mean with RPC?
22:45 hmmmm Remote Procedure Call
22:45 hmmmm okay, I dub thee, MTRPC
22:45 est31 yes it can mean alot
22:46 hmmmm server script performs an RPC because it wanted to do a formspec thing
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22:46 hmmmm and get a result of what the user pressed
22:46 est31 so you want to send arbitrary bytecode from server to client??
22:46 hmmmm so the server does something like... player.DoRPC("OpenTheGoddamnFormspec", <info here>);
22:47 hmmmm and that client gets his function OpenTheGoddamnFormspec(data) called
22:47 hmmmm and then returns some result
22:47 hmmmm est31: yes, that's the plan.
22:48 est31 but not executable bytecode? and why bytecode at all? (for the lua side)
22:48 est31 I mean bytecode isnt good, if its executable or so
22:48 hmmmm well it doesn't NEED to be bytecode
22:48 hmmmm it's just going to transfer over some filez
22:48 hmmmm on server connect
22:48 hmmmm it'll be like part of the media
22:49 est31 you want client side scripting?
22:49 hmmmm if the client has allow_server_scripts = true, then it'll download them from the server and then execute them
22:49 hmmmm of course... that's the mission
22:49 VanessaE ahh
22:49 est31 ah, yea then downloading seems reasonable.
22:49 hmmmm I thought you guys knew about my plans
22:49 VanessaE we only get fleeting glimpses of your plans
22:49 hmmmm oh
22:49 hmmmm it should probably be posted somewhere like on the forums for persistency
22:50 hmmmm persistence*
22:50 est31 I have heard something, but unfortunately I only got seriously into mt-dev after you left
22:50 VanessaE your whole, evil agenda hadn't yet been revealed :)
22:50 hmmmm i talked it over with sapier, kahrl, and zeno so far
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22:50 hmmmm yeah man
22:51 hmmmm this is gonna be soo good
22:51 hmmmm no more node prediction lag
22:51 hmmmm 'cause there won't be any need for prediction
22:51 est31 ? you want to become everything hackable?
22:51 hmmmm awesum special F.X. like rain/fog/mist, heatwaves
22:51 hmmmm scriptable environments
22:52 hmmmm lag-free mobs
22:52 hmmmm lag-free sound
22:52 est31 yup
22:52 est31 sounds pretty cool
22:52 hmmmm est31:  well I suppose prediction could still be there, just more consistent
22:52 VanessaE prediction is gonna get.../complicated
22:52 est31 every mod would have to do it
22:52 * VanessaE imagines Calinou trying to rewrite moreblocks to support it :)
22:53 hmmmm I'm not that far along yet
22:53 VanessaE of course then client-side highlighting of the predicted placement would become possible.
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22:53 hmmmm the only reason why placement "prediction" is needed is due to the client not having any scripts
22:54 est31 and where exactly do you need the bytecode thing now for?
22:54 hmmmm when the scripts run on the client and really do determine a semi-authoritative answer, it'll just 'be'
22:54 hmmmm est31:  I originally planned to pass the raw bytestream to Lua and have that perform the RPC
22:54 VanessaE hmmmm: I do like that idea.
22:54 hmmmm yeah
22:54 hmmmm so the role the "prediction" will have after this, in theory, is to just clean up any mistakes in the event of cheating
22:55 hmmmm or network problems
22:55 est31 you would get a parrallell model now
22:55 est31 and would have to think about race conditions
22:56 hmmmm you're right, that's another use of server-side prediction
22:56 est31 aw but now I get what you mean with prediction
22:56 hmmmm break the tie in the case of a race condition
22:57 est31 still there are many things to consider
22:57 est31 e.g. you dont want the client have to download a whole technic network
22:57 est31 or all areas on the server
22:58 hmmmm technic is one of those things where it would work best on the server
22:58 est31 not that they wouldnt be solvable ofc
22:58 est31 I think there is some code that client can handle well too
22:58 hmmmm client-side modding is more or less for things such as opening doors, inventory, GUI, HUD, sound, special effects
22:59 hmmmm mobs :)
22:59 est31 imagine a drawtype done by lua
22:59 est31 cablelike
22:59 hmmmm what's that do
22:59 est31 currently, cables in technic are done quite ugly
22:59 VanessaE hmmmm: regarding technic... any chance of getting a cable-like drawtype that pipeworks' pneumatic tubes and technic's cabling could use?
23:00 est31 there is a different node for every single configuration
23:00 VanessaE (something simple where the modder can configure the textures and the cable's/tube's cross-section)
23:00 hmmmm is there a chance?
23:00 hmmmm if there was a chance, i'm not the kind of person to write that
23:00 hmmmm *shudders*
23:00 VanessaE hah, est31 beat me to it.
23:00 est31 ofc, native engine support would be better (for me).
23:00 VanessaE ninja'd
23:00 hmmmm that's like, total RBA territory
23:00 VanessaE RBA?
23:01 VanessaE who's that?
23:01 est31 lol
23:01 VanessaE oh, I remember now
23:01 hmmmm some guy who used to come around and write graphics stuff
23:01 hmmmm and make shader bugs
23:01 VanessaE wasn't he some gfx coder about two y..
23:01 VanessaE yeah
23:01 est31 that dude that wrote technic
23:01 est31 who*
23:01 VanessaE est31: yeah, and now somehow you and t4im and I got saddled with maintaining that fucking thing :P
23:02 est31 yea :)
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