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IRC log for #minetest, 2015-01-26

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Kay_Jay_Kay left #minetest
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00:12 sofar any lua experts around? I'm trying to see if I can create an array of arrays (well, staticallly declare it)
00:13 sofar e,g, foo = { bar = { x = 1, y = 1}, baz = {x = 0, y = 0} }
00:15 ecutruin Welp, found myself a site to learn the basics of C++ again.  Maybe I can sit through it and start digging through MT internals.  Not sure.  I'd probably end up forking though.. cause I have a lot of things I'd want to change likely.
00:16 est31 why fork so fast? ---> first try to get your changes merged into code
00:19 ecutruin Because I'd be overhauling enough that they aren't likely to get in? ^-^
00:20 est31 maintaining your own fork can be hard
00:20 ecutruin But I'd keep it open source to give back.. so anything could be pulled back in.
00:20 est31 you even have to keep it open source
00:20 ecutruin I'm sure it will be.  However, to make the type of game engine I'd like to use.. I don't see a good alternative.
00:21 est31 you want to get away from irrlicht? Thats a ton of work
00:23 acerspyro ecutruin: Forget it
00:23 VanessaE actually, hmmmm has proposed doing just that.
00:23 acerspyro Just make your own, it'll be easier and faster than to fix Minetest from the root up
00:23 acerspyro Too much to fix :P
00:23 acerspyro Learn how to do openGL, it should be fun :D
00:24 acerspyro graphitemaster has been making a game engine for a while now, called Neothyne. Lots of work, but atleast you have FULL control.
00:24 acerspyro Unlike using irrlicht.
00:25 ecutruin Heh.  I just want to make a block game engine that allows me to make what I wish to make.  As for making my own.  Sure, I could do that (I have actually - https://twitter.com/ecutruin/st​atus/503023271571652608/photo/1 - though it was quite limited yet).
00:26 est31 nice
00:28 ecutruin And it did cross my mind to just start over.  I'm not sure if I would recommend abandoning Irrlicht outright and going fully custom would be the best route .. or just move to another open game engine.
00:29 ecutruin Main reason I wanted to kind of stick with MT is just that it already has a community that I could offer to.. many of the mods would still work with my fork, etc.
00:30 acerspyro You want my opinion?
00:30 ecutruin Sure?
00:30 acerspyro Don't use irrlicht.
00:30 ecutruin Is it the reason for a lot of the issues we currently face in MT? (always looping animations, imprecise entities, etc.)?
00:31 acerspyro idk about entities, but for looping animations, yes
00:31 est31 ecutruin: you mean dumb mobs?
00:31 acerspyro Same as why we can't crouch, see others holding items or see the head moving.
00:32 est31 ??
00:32 acerspyro Well, can't see others crouch
00:32 ecutruin est31, I mean the reason I can try attack a mob and not hit it because its not actually where I see it.
00:32 acerspyro Heh
00:33 acerspyro sync problem
00:33 est31 There are mods shat show what sb is holding
00:33 acerspyro est31: they are hackish
00:33 acerspyro I heard
00:34 est31 I haven't seen their src, but I've played a long time on a server with that mod enabled, and I think they are ok,
00:34 est31 .
00:34 acerspyro if I would make a cube game, I would make it look really nice with motion blur, shadow maps, shaders and smooth animations.
00:34 acerspyro and it wouldn't be slow
00:34 acerspyro :L
00:34 acerspyro I don't understand why MT is made CPU-bound in the first place
00:35 ecutruin acerspyro, I don't know if I would use high end shadow maps or shaders, to be honest.  It can really limit the people that could play.  But nice animation capability is definitely needed.
00:35 est31 ecutruin: try freeminer. it has nice features.
00:35 acerspyro ecutruin: Well, I would definetly drive it away from being a kid's game
00:36 acerspyro For one
00:36 ecutruin acerspyro, I also think that's a mistake.. as that's a large portion of your playerbase.
00:36 est31 how?
00:36 acerspyro ecutruin: if I target adults, I'll have an adult playerbase instead
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00:36 acerspyro est31: Less childish, for example, realism.
00:36 ecutruin Nope.  You probably won't. ^-^
00:36 acerspyro ecutruin: You don't know
00:37 acerspyro Noone tried
00:37 acerspyro :P
00:37 ecutruin I've been studying the game market around voxel games for over two years.
00:37 ecutruin I have a pretty good idea.
00:37 acerspyro No voxel game has been targetting adults
00:37 ecutruin Forest.  N1Z1.
00:37 est31 but thats nothing technical regarding the engine
00:38 acerspyro or I could just not care about the target playerbase :P
00:38 ecutruin I could name a few others..  Pretty sure space engineers isn't targeted at children.
00:38 acerspyro But I would make it a bit more intensivee
00:38 acerspyro Space engineers?
00:38 acerspyro That's not a voxel game
00:39 ecutruin Yes it is.
00:39 acerspyro No
00:39 ecutruin Yes.. it is.
00:39 acerspyro What I am talking about is in the style of Minecraft, Minetest, Freeminer and cubeWorld
00:39 acerspyro There's no cube in that game
00:39 est31 ?
00:40 est31 ah
00:40 ecutruin Space Engineers uses meatball rendering for asteroids vs cube rendering.. but they are both voxels.
00:41 chrisf acerspyro: are you saying the ship structures arent voxels at all?
00:41 chrisf acerspyro: there's a ton of specialization, but it is all cube-based
00:41 acerspyro w/e
00:41 acerspyro I meant MC-styl
00:41 acerspyro e
00:42 chrisf it's a bit odd because it's *ALL* specialized bits
00:43 ecutruin As for making the game a bit more involved.. you mean like - https://docs.google.com/document/d/13D0LsI​LS-F9vfXmDQv9TNQJxJ9Y2dpFeNq37Eg2gR5s/edit ?
00:43 acerspyro well
00:43 chrisf im doing a thing that's kindof like space engineers but with tons of systems simulation
00:43 acerspyro That's still java
00:43 acerspyro So no
00:44 acerspyro I want performance
00:45 ecutruin acerspyro, for one.. I'll tell you that Java can be very good in terms of performance.  For two.. that is a design document.  It doesn't rely on using Minecraft to do it.  Why would I be sharing it and talking about making my own engine or a fork if it was only for Minecraft?
00:47 acerspyro oh
00:50 ecutruin Its essentially a design for a block game where everything requires more direct interaction.  GUIs are kept to a minimum.
00:50 ecutruin Overall, progressing in such a game will be a whole lot more challenging.  As you won't be able to carry a ton of resources on you all the time.
00:51 acerspyro nice
00:51 acerspyro Main menu tatoo'd on your wrist :P
00:52 ecutruin I wanted to just implement it in MT.. but the limitations make doing so in a professional fashion pretty hard.
00:52 acerspyro hah
00:52 acerspyro Forget it!
00:53 ecutruin There aren't a "ton" of problems, honestly.  Just that the ones that are there are pretty inhibiting.  Not being able to fully overhaul the functioning of the HUD.. well since the HUD is the most important part.. kinda ruins everything.
00:53 ecutruin Always looping animations hurt the ability to really give a polished feeling.
00:53 acerspyro yup, yup
00:54 acerspyro Also, not sure it'll run smooth
00:54 ecutruin And imprecise entity sync hurts the ability to really allow for a fun challenge with monsters/animals.
00:56 ecutruin Those things are the real roadblocks to making it in MT.  Main reason I've yet to make it in MC is I lose the ability to sell, market, etc. my work.
00:57 * ecutruin shrugs.
00:57 acerspyro make yooo own :D
00:57 ecutruin I honestly really like the community here.  I think fixing MT would be worth more than just abandoning it all together and making my own.
00:57 acerspyro then fix it, glhf :P
01:00 Fadi_ funny how we're talking about the hud while I'm trying to change it lol
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01:01 Kalabasa Always looping animations are caused by irrlicht?
01:02 est31 ecutruin: don't bring everything in the gaming world. I dont want to end up having to move my mouse in order to type into a default:keyboard node in order to chat
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01:03 ecutruin est31, naw.. things that can be reliably on the HUD still (like chat), will be.
01:03 est31 reliably?
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01:05 Kalabasa SuperTuxKart uses  irrlicht but doesn't have always repeating animations
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01:06 est31 whats bad on always repeating anims? do you want to emulate plasma physics in order to create a little flame on a furnace?
01:07 est31 s/on/about/
01:08 Kalabasa If I make a jump animation. And play it the moment a mob jumps, the animation will repeat in midair.
01:08 Kalabasa Will look like double jumping
01:08 est31 ah
01:09 est31 but I dont think the engine is that bad
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01:09 est31 I guess this is a minetest core issue
01:10 Kalabasa It's not a really bad thing, but it prevents the polished look
01:11 Kalabasa Also, in an attack animation, the entity will repeat the attack animation regardless of how many times it really attacks
01:12 ecutruin Well, est31, I won't be doing a popup inventory or anything like that.  I'll show your equipment on the edge of the screen or somesuch and a small on-hand inventory.. any other will just be in-world.
01:14 ecutruin As for animation issues.. imagine opening a chest, and having it re-open continuously.
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01:17 Kalabasa I worked around the animation issue by counting the frames of the "intro animation" and setting the "loop animation" when the intro ends
01:17 est31 ecutruin: I dont think that popups are great and so on, but you are sacrificing usability for "realism". Please note that in the real world I have two hands with 10 fingers. what you think is realistic, might only be realistic for people with one finger directly attached to their head.
01:17 est31 there is just no better way
01:18 chrisf ecutruin: surely the animation issues can be fixed if someone cares enough :)
01:18 ecutruin est31, no.. I'm not sacrificing usability.  I'm purposely changing how the game plays to create a more challenging experience.  I do NOT want people having a ton of resources on hand.
01:18 ecutruin chrisf, maybe.  It might be possible.
01:18 est31 then make the inventory small.
01:18 ecutruin The HUD issues will be a mess to tackle, I'm sure.
01:18 ecutruin est31, I am.
01:19 est31 that has nothing todo with "pop ups"
01:19 ecutruin Sure it does.. I'm making it so small, there is no popup inventory.
01:21 MinetestBot [git] ShadowNinja -> minetest/minetest: Fix imprecise serialization of large numbers 47aca6f http://git.io/QRFoHQ (2015-01-25T20:19:35-05:00)
01:25 twoelk sounds like some hardcore survival with small pockets
01:32 ShadowNinja sofar: Locals are only visible in their scope, if that's what you were doing.
01:32 ShadowNinja (files become functions, "dofile(name)" is just "loadfile(name)()")
01:33 Kalabasa btw I'm quoting you ecutruin
01:33 sofar it's just lua being odd, without the word "local" things can still be "local"
01:33 Kalabasa in a forum post
01:33 ecutruin Oh?
01:33 Fadi_ any opinions here on how this looks? http://faaf.me/XG3q/80cf92 http://faaf.me/1N9Q/45575b
01:34 Kalabasa https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=5&t=11081
01:34 ShadowNinja sofar: No, variables are global by default.
01:34 sofar it doesn't work if I declare it in the dofile
01:35 ShadowNinja sofar: Then you're doing something wrong.
01:35 ShadowNinja But globals are a bad idea.
01:35 sofar I get that
01:37 ShadowNinja sofar: Try [[local static_data = dofile("static_data.lua")]] where static_data.lua contains "return {foo=bar, ...}".
01:37 sofar shrug, it works if I do local table = {}\mdofile(....)
01:38 sofar that's not a bad solution either
01:38 est31 Fadi_: the icon is too white for me
01:40 ShadowNinja sofar: The dofile'd file can't access locals from its caller.
01:41 ecutruin Fadi, Well I hate the default game menu.. but I assume you mean the bars at the top?
01:42 est31 there are also numbers in the inventory
01:42 est31 but Fadi_ aint online
01:43 ecutruin Doh.
01:43 ecutruin Kalabasa, I am not sure I'd do animations exactly like that.  Just being able to execute animations from frame X to frame Y without looping or only looping a set number of times would be very good.
01:44 Kalabasa Well, maybe I went a bit much. I was copying Clonk's animation system.
01:45 est31 Kalabasa: I like the added logic, as it then can be predicted by the client.
01:45 est31 and thats one of the main issues why things look ugly the first place
01:46 Kalabasa A simple way also is to set an "intro frames" into the set_animation(...) that tells how many frames in the beginning of the animation is to be played once only, the rest loops
01:46 Kalabasa "simple"
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01:51 Fadi_ is there a way to make the breath bar always appear?
01:51 Fadi_ Why did I make that in bold..
01:54 Kalabasa I don't know, but you can make a background image of a full bar, I think?
01:55 ecutruin Kalabasa, or.. they could just do "entity.play_animation(startFrame, endFrame, loopNumber)" or something like it.  Really easy.
01:55 Kalabasa What's loopNumber?
01:55 ecutruin Number of times the animation should loop, zero being play once.
01:55 Kalabasa What happens after?
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01:57 est31 zero being play infinite times
01:57 est31 one play one
01:57 est31 once
01:58 Kalabasa If the animation halts after all the loops
01:58 ecutruin est31, that could work as well.
01:58 Fadi_ But wouldn't that not make it like go down?
01:58 est31 ?
01:58 Kalabasa The model will be stuck in the last frame?
01:58 Kalabasa until the next playanimation call
01:59 est31 yea
01:59 Kalabasa That's good enough I guess
01:59 Fadi_ Now I'm more confused lol
01:59 Kalabasa That's good for chests and static things, but for living things
01:59 est31 its hard to make something lag-efficient thats only controlled serverside
02:00 est31 for that we need client side lua
02:00 est31 s/efficient/resistant/
02:00 Fadi_ Uh isn't there an easier way to make the breath bar always appear? I mean like shouldn't there be?
02:01 Kalabasa Living things frozen in the last frame (of a jump animation for example) look odd, which is why I want the next_animation parameter.
02:01 Kalabasa But that's not really noticaeble
02:02 ecutruin Kalabasa, that could be good but how would you apply that to say.. an animated node?  Same thing?
02:02 Kalabasa texture animations?
02:02 Kalabasa Yes
02:03 Kalabasa I think loopStart is better instead of next_aniamtion... play_animation({x=start, y=end}, framespeed, whatisframeblendfor, loopNumber, loopStart)
02:04 Kalabasa anyway,
02:04 Kalabasa I think this discussion should go to the forum, for
02:04 Kalabasa visiblity
02:04 Kalabasa gtg now, school
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02:31 Fadi_ can anyone help me in #minetest-mods ?
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04:34 DacThenextlevel minetest has it's own bot
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04:43 est31 rather two
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05:25 whatsupdoc nutsack
05:26 whatsupdoc how is the android port coming along?
05:33 Fadi_ mfw I use my forum account from 2013 and read all of my stupid posts
05:34 VanessaE whatsupdoc: ask sapier
05:34 VanessaE it's long since been adapted for Android
05:34 VanessaE works reasonably well but still needs some tuning
05:35 VanessaE [01-17 14:41] <sapier> http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=g9c​63a08b33eb932899961019369bd677d164a74aa VanessaE latest apk package for you containing your icoon
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05:35 VanessaE -o
05:35 VanessaE that's the latest one I am aware of.
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06:00 hmmmm is there some kind of dokuwiki extension where numerous users can argue their point on a page
06:00 hmmmm like respond to eachother
06:01 hmmmm sort of like a forum but embedded into the wiki and without all the overhead.  just the username and their expandable comments on that part of the page
06:01 hmmmm i don't mean the "view discussion" tab either... so basically I want to move the view discussion contents into the wiki main page into an expandable format
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06:33 est31 http://ctrlv.in/492881
06:33 est31 This happens when I log onto VE-S with current master: the life bar is drawn too low
06:34 VanessaE est31: yeah, happened when sapier messed up the scaling of the HUD.
06:34 VanessaE it's not supposed to scale like that, it's supposed to be all in one row at the default window size
06:34 est31 release date is jan 29?
06:34 VanessaE in theory yeah
06:35 VanessaE hmmmm: no idea about dokuwiki, ask ShadowNinja when he's around next
06:35 VanessaE he uses it to run the Inchra website.
06:35 est31 what is inchra?
06:36 VanessaE est31: the IRC network the servers are connected through
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10:10 Megaf_ Hi al
10:10 Megaf_ all*
10:11 Megaf_ VanessaE: You and jp are doing a great work on Homedecor
10:11 Megaf_ and on pipeworks too
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10:21 Megaf_ What's the nicj jp use on IRC?
10:22 Megaf_ kilbith :)
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10:43 Caleneledh Does anyone know what would cause ERROR[main]:  [C]: in function 'place_node' when placing a node?
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10:58 Caleneledh It seems to be caused when trying to place a homedecor node
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11:51 rubenwardy Caleneledh: we need more info, like the debug log around it.
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12:03 exio4 est31, same here :P
12:03 est31 better channel
12:03 exio4 I have an AMD too, just that
12:04 est31 ok, but its OT, so you speak in #minetest
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12:28 kaeza mornings
12:29 exio4 \o kaeza
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12:31 Caleneledh @rubenwardy: I found the problem.  I was trying to place a homedecor_glowligh_thin using place_node, but I needed to call minetest.rotate_node
12:32 Caleneledh The error message was vague, stating there was an error in the error handler
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12:45 Megaf !tell Calinou Hi, please read my post at moreblocks topic. Thanks!
12:45 MinetestBot Megaf: I'll pass that on when Calinou is around
12:45 Megaf Thanks MinetestBot
12:45 Megaf !thanks
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14:41 MinetestBot [git] Zeno- -> minetest/minetest: Revert "Fix a crash (assert) when client set serial version < 24 in INIT command SER_FMT_VER_LOWEST is set to zero, then the test is stupid in INIT because all client works. In mapblock we check if client's serialization version is < 24, but if client sent serialization version < 24 (15 for example) the server set it and tried to send nodes, then BOOM" ca217d0 http://git.io/bm
14:41 Zeno` so bold
14:41 Zeno` why is he so bold?
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14:44 Wayward_One Neolink_: do you speak english?
14:45 Wayward_One ah, ok :)
14:48 shadowzone I can't even get in.
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16:32 tim_flatus Can anyone point me to some code for a /spawn command, or alternatively just tell me if player:setpos just takes a pos as arg?
16:33 tim_flatus I'm guessing it does
16:34 tim_flatus something like player:setpos({-5, 23, 5})
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16:44 tim_flatus We'll find out soon enough
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16:48 jin_xi tim_flatus: you know this document? https://raw.githubusercontent.com/min​etest/minetest/master/doc/lua_api.txt
16:48 diemartin tim_flatus, a `pos` is not an {x,y,z} array, BTW, but rather a {x=x,y=y,z=z} table
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16:58 tim_flatus jin_xi yes. I'm just very busy admining
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16:58 tim_flatus diemartin thanks
16:59 tim_flatus I'm not quite used to the difference between the two in lua
17:00 tim_flatus I couldn't see a reference to it in default/player.lua
17:03 tim_flatus Thanks for your help, sorry to ask such a lame question :/
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17:39 marktraceur Neolink_: They're downloaded for you.
17:40 Krock Only the media is downloaded
17:40 Krock not the codes
17:40 marktraceur Pretty sure that's not relevant to the question
17:43 Calinou mods themselves are not downloaded
17:43 Calinou only media and definitions are
17:43 Calinou media is cached
17:43 marktraceur Pretty sure that's not relevant to the question
17:43 Calinou just saying :)
17:44 Calinou if you were thinking you could “soak up” mods
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18:07 rubenwardy Hi all!
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18:09 Calinou hi rubenwardy
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18:13 Caleneledh I need a good lua mode for emacs :/
18:14 rubenwardy > emacs.
18:14 rubenwardy What is this, 1980?
18:14 rubenwardy :D
18:14 rubenwardy #LetsStartAFlameWar
18:15 kaeza but you can run Minetest on emacs! :(
18:15 kaeza and at this rate, emacs will be runnable in Minetest
18:16 kaeza SOON
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18:19 Polsaker LOL
18:19 Polsaker emacs? that operative system without nano?
18:19 * Polsaker hides
18:20 Caleneledh Yeah, that's the one lol.
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18:52 Caleneledh Ahh that's better.  So much easier with contect highlighting and auto indent.
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18:57 w_laenger hi
18:57 marktraceur Hi w_laenger
18:58 w_laenger How can I change the background colour (skyblue behind clouds) of the main menu in minetest?
19:00 marktraceur I think that's set in the game definition
19:01 marktraceur Hm. Not sure.
19:02 w_laenger thanks
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19:05 Caleneledh Do you mean the manu when the game first starts?
19:05 marktraceur w_laenger: I know that there is a header.png and a menu.png file in the minetest_game/menu directory
19:05 marktraceur Er no
19:05 marktraceur icon.png
19:06 marktraceur Oh!
19:06 marktraceur w_laenger: minimal has a background.png, so put something there
19:07 Caleneledh icon.png sets the game icon in the main menu, and menu.png set the background for that game.
19:07 Caleneledh header.png sets the header at the top of the menu
19:07 marktraceur No, background.png
19:07 marktraceur Not menu.png
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19:08 Caleneledh Yeah, you are correct.
19:08 w_laenger No, I don't mean a background image
19:09 w_laenger I would like to know how to change the colour which is shown
19:09 Caleneledh Oh, do you mean the screen when the game is loading up?
19:09 w_laenger no
19:09 w_laenger I mean the sky
19:09 w_laenger in the main menu
19:09 Calinou sky colour is hardcoded
19:09 Calinou sorry
19:10 Calinou try menu_clouds = false
19:10 Calinou for fixed brown colour
19:10 marktraceur Just screw with your monitor contrast settings.
19:10 w_laenger thanks, so it's not at builtin/
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19:27 w_laenger I removed the g_menuclouds->update in main.cpp and didn't notice a difference…
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19:30 w_laenger bye
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20:08 Krock http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem
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22:46 Arch-TK I think I've just written the best thing ever.
22:47 marktraceur War and Peace?
22:47 Arch-TK mathematical vectors in C which look beautiful: vec_dot(vec_cross(vec(1, 2, 3), vec(3, 2, 1)), vec(5, 4, 2))
22:47 Arch-TK It actually works :D http://sprunge.us/VScV
22:47 Arch-TK http://sprunge.us/jcQO?c
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23:32 est31 ShadowNinja: is the fact that the areas mod doesn't tell are limits a feature or a bug?
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