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IRC log for #minetest, 2014-12-13

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Time Nick Message
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00:35 Lugal hi
00:35 Lugal i cant open the model files with blender anymore#
00:35 Lugal any suggestions?
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00:36 Lugal is there any tool being able to edit all modes in all open source games?
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01:56 LazyJ Of the three default mapgens (v5, v6, v7) in Minetest, which one will be supported and maintained the longest?
01:56 LazyJ And how long will that be?
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02:54 Tesseract LazyJ: v5 and v7 are experimental at this point.  v6 will be maintained until there's a better alternative.  It will probably be kept for a year or more after that though.
02:54 Tesseract So, v6 is "LTS".
02:56 LazyJ Ah. Thanks. ;)
02:57 Lugal How do I edit the .x model files?
02:57 LazyJ Not sure.
02:58 LazyJ I think Jordach and VanessaE have been using Blender for their mods' modeled stuff.
02:58 Tesseract Lugal: Try to get the native file, probably a .blender.
02:59 VanessaE LazyJ: yep
02:59 Lugal its not blender, its .x
03:00 VanessaE blender is a 3d modeling program used to produce those .x files
03:00 VanessaE however I don't know if it can re-import them
03:00 Lugal but I cant open them with blender
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03:00 Lugal so blender can only save .x but not open it?
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03:07 LazyJ paramat, looks like one of the engine updates since 2014_12_10 broke "Watershed".
03:08 paramat hopefully mgv5 and mgv6 will be supported indefinitely, mgv7 is the most likely to be trashed although i'm fighting to keep it in
03:08 paramat okay i'll try it
03:09 LazyJ minetest.get_perlin seems to be at the base of the problem.
03:09 paramat hmmmmm is considering starting mgv8
03:09 LazyJ watershed/init.lua:259: attempt to index local 'nvals_terrain' (a nil value)
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03:09 paramat yeah lots of changes, see my latest forum post
03:09 paramat we're in feature freeze now so stuff needs to be tested for 0.4.11 release
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03:10 LazyJ Earlier I had asked what default, Minetest mapgen (v5, v6, v7) would be kept and maintained for the long term and how long is "long term".
03:10 paramat yep saw that
03:10 LazyJ The response was mapgen v6 for a year after it's replacement has been found.
03:11 paramat yeah that's not correct
03:11 paramat luckily
03:11 LazyJ So which one is long term enough to use on a server?
03:12 paramat v5/v6
03:12 paramat only really bad mapgens will be trashed
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03:12 paramat personally i would like to build up a variety
03:13 paramat i see more potential in mgv5 than mgv6 so i would suggest mgv5
03:13 paramat but it's down to your tastes
03:14 LazyJ A variety would add more interest in Minetest but stability, reliability, and longevity are the points that severs depend on.
03:14 LazyJ Well, servers that are going to be around for more than a couple months. ;)
03:14 paramat mgv5 won't be stable for a while i'm working on improving the biome API
03:15 paramat and creating the default biomes
03:15 paramat for immediate use mgv6 is still the one
03:16 LazyJ What is the future of Watershed?
03:16 paramat i'll be adding optional snow biomes to that and fixing the discontinuities at y = 47 so you can have mush higher terrain
03:16 paramat ^ mgv6
03:16 paramat watershed: new underground system of tunnels, caves, fissures, otherwise staying the same
03:17 paramat my new ideas are going into riverdev (which is watershed 2)
03:17 LazyJ My concern is if you stop maintaining Watershed, future engine updates may break it again.
03:18 paramat watershed is popular, even with c55, so i will maintain it
03:18 paramat but not develop it much, underground changes are not so noticeable
03:19 LazyJ Good to hear.
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03:21 LazyJ Looks like "scale" was removed from the engines perlin stuff (sorry, I'm not a programmer).
03:22 paramat nvals_terrain being nil means getperlinmap has failed
03:23 paramat hmmmm one for you ^
03:23 LazyJ Box cliffs scared my long-term, Watershed yesterday.
03:25 paramat :( a terrain discontinuity
03:25 LazyJ I assume they are at the edge where the active_block_range stopped, and the updated engine code did something else when I got close enough to activate another block.
03:25 paramat well a new mapchunk was generated and was discontinous
03:25 paramat it seems
03:26 paramat if the edges of the discontinuities are 80 nodes long -> mapchunks
03:26 LazyJ About 400 nodes long (north-south)
03:27 LazyJ These are common in the older servers I've toured.
03:27 LazyJ Box cliffs and box canyons.
03:28 LazyJ So far I haven't seen a mod that will reshape and blend them into the terrain.
03:29 paramat oh actually watershed can regen chunks
03:29 paramat luckily for you
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03:29 LazyJ How do I do that?
03:29 paramat only do it after we fix this
03:29 LazyJ Hehehe... well, how do I do that when Watershed doesn't crash Minetest anymore. ;)-
03:30 paramat see int/lua line 630
03:30 LazyJ "Don't start the engine." "No problem. It's outta gas."
03:30 paramat init.lua
03:31 paramat just type /regen as a chat command
03:31 paramat while in the mapchunk you want regenerated
03:31 LazyJ How do I tell it were to start and stop?
03:31 LazyJ Ah.
03:32 paramat it will regen the 80^3 mapchunk around the player
03:32 LazyJ That's good to know. Thanks!
03:32 LazyJ But back to putting the bug in your ear.... ;)-
03:32 paramat i'm happy i added that now
03:33 LazyJ Me too, me too.
03:33 paramat so i need to run it with 'debug log level = 4' in .conf
03:34 LazyJ There are three other lines in that error.
03:34 paramat hmmmmm is very busy so this may take a few days to fix
03:35 LazyJ I spent all summer setting up the mods for this world, a year of planning before that. I can wait a couple days.
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03:40 paramat works for me with very latest minetest dev
03:40 LazyJ How latest?
03:41 LazyJ Ah...\
03:41 LazyJ My last compile was after Zeno' fixed a typo (9f65fd6).
03:44 paramat i compiled 2 hours ago, try with latest, you can always regen the terrain if it still fails
03:44 LazyJ Downloading now...
03:45 hmmmm hi LazyJ, what do you mean by this  '
03:45 hmmmm [10:21 PM] <LazyJ> Looks like "scale" was removed from the engines perlin stuff (sorry, I'm not a programmer).
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03:47 paramat funny i can't see a commit since 9f6 that would fix noise
03:47 LazyJ I looked at the line Watershed's error pointed too, and then looked at resent GitHub commits to find get_perlin, that lead to a section that a had all the things paramat used (seed, octaves, etc) but "scale" had been removed.
03:47 LazyJ Looking back through to find the commit part I saw...
03:47 * Zeno` hands paramat a pair of noise cancelling headphones
03:48 hmmmm LazyJ, what's watershed's error?
03:49 LazyJ watershed/init.lua:259: attempt to index local 'nvals_terrain' (a nil value)
03:49 hmmmm does this error happen all the time?
03:50 Zeno` errr
03:50 Zeno` 13:49:54: ERROR[main]: ERROR: An unhandled exception occurred: ...netest/worlds/ram-test/worl​dmods/caverealms/init.lua:189: attempt to index local 'nvals_cave' (a nil value)
03:50 Zeno` ^^^^ just noticed this then
03:51 Zeno` restart server, happened again
03:51 Zeno` so I guess every time (for me). This is caverealms not watershed obviously.
03:51 paramat weird
03:52 LazyJ I just downloaded the latest commit of Minetest, will have to compile before I can try Watershed again.
03:52 hmmmm i changed it yesterday so that you can't use getMap3d on LuaPerlinNoiseMap objects created for 2d
03:52 hmmmm are you doing bad things like that?
03:52 Zeno` https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest-​caverealms/blob/mtz/init.lua#L189
03:52 paramat hmmmmm see discussion earlier in this channel (the last hour or so) for more info
03:52 LazyJ Where I was looking at earlier:  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/2b81​80a417465845759096670f498bf71cd39403?diff=split
03:52 paramat LJ how did you get box cliffs if the mod crashed?
03:53 LazyJ src/script/lua_api/l_env.cpp, starting at line 593. But I'm guessing. This stuff is above my head for now.
03:54 LazyJ The box cliffs formed yesterday.
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03:54 LazyJ I downloaded and compiled the new commit of Minetest earlier this morning.
03:55 paramat so crash first, then it worked again but with discontinuities. ah.. a crash causes empty mapchunks to appear
03:55 LazyJ That's the one where the error came from.
03:55 LazyJ No. Worked, cliffs, new download and compile of Minetest, run stuff again to check things out, Watershed world barfed.
03:56 paramat even weirder
03:56 paramat uh .. watershed just spawned me in watery a hole in the ground lol
03:56 LazyJ There is about a 24hr gap between the Minetest versions.
03:56 paramat (that's normal)
03:57 paramat so it seems getperlinmap is failing
03:57 paramat .. looking at your error message
03:58 LazyJ Early AM 2014_12_11 was when I last compiled Minetest and box cliffs appeared in Watershed (but Watershed ran).
03:59 LazyJ Then this morining (2014_12_12) I downloaded and compiled what was, at that time, the latest and greatest.
03:59 hmmmm hi lazyj, could you try compiling the latest commit and try again
03:59 LazyJ That's the version that didn't like Watershed.
03:59 LazyJ Hehehe... Yup. Been sidetracked this past hour. :P
04:03 paramat ah i see i have an undeclared global in a function. watershed works for me on 3rd try, again weird
04:05 LazyJ Still compiling...
04:05 LazyJ exit
04:06 LazyJ Woops.
04:11 LazyJ Ok, the test Watershed world is working. \0/
04:11 LazyJ Now for the existing world.
04:11 paramat when the box cliffs appeared were you using MTdev or 0.4.10 stable?
04:11 paramat good
04:11 LazyJ MTdev
04:12 LazyJ I don't use the stable versions if I don't have too.
04:12 LazyJ Risky, I know.
04:12 LazyJ But it's how I monitor things before deciding to upgrade our server.
04:13 LazyJ Success!
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04:17 LazyJ paramat, the /regen isn't regenerating the terrain around me at the base of the cliff.
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04:19 LazyJ Getting screenshots lined-up.
04:20 paramat enable freemove and fly around above and below ground using regen multiple times, like every 80 nodes or so
04:21 paramat hmmmmm you are king awesome!
04:21 LazyJ [watershed] regenerate mapchunk
04:21 LazyJ [watershed] 2421 ms
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04:32 LazyJ Here are two screenshots of box cliffs:
04:32 LazyJ http://imgur.com/96Q6Aru
04:32 LazyJ http://imgur.com/ckbhY9b
04:33 LazyJ So far, no-clipped flying around in the affected areas and using /regen... nothing happens.
04:33 * paramat looks
04:33 LazyJ Over, under, in the cliff, outside of the cliff... no joys.
04:34 paramat okay screenshots look like noise params somehow changed across a chunk border
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04:35 paramat which is why regen didn't fix it
04:35 hmmmm hi LazyJ, I did a lot of work on noise lately, could you bisect the commits starting from about 3 days ago until now?
04:35 paramat regen is regenning the discontinuity
04:36 paramat you can test the regen by placing a node and seeing if it dissappears on regen
04:37 LazyJ hmmmm, I don't know how or what you mean by bisect the commits. I'm the amateur in this.
04:37 hmmmm i'm assuming this is paramat's mod?
04:38 paramat bisect = track down the commit that caused this
04:38 paramat yeah
04:38 LazyJ Sorry. I wish I had the code skills to be of better help.
04:38 hmmmm and you use get3dMap_flat()?
04:38 paramat hmmmmm yes
04:39 hmmmm how do you create that base terrain
04:39 paramat https://github.com/paramat/wa​tershed/blob/master/init.lua
04:40 paramat erm it's super-complex
04:40 paramat mixture of 2D and 3D noises
04:40 hmmmm yeah you use get3dMap_flat for the parts that matter most, what i'm seeing
04:40 hmmmm regardless i didn't change anything there aside from either 2d or 3d versions of that function aside from the safety check which has no bearing on the noise *output*
04:41 paramat yep
04:41 paramat the 2D noise raises or lowers the entire terrain
04:41 paramat 3D noise for the mountains
04:42 paramat i will try my existing world's to see if i get discontinuities too
04:42 paramat *worlds
04:42 hmmmm yup, no clue...
04:43 paramat thanks anyway, half a fix
04:43 hmmmm i specifically removed the offset and scale application when i added that step directly to the noise functions
04:44 paramat i always use offset = 0, scale = 1 in  my noiseparams
04:44 paramat .. from habit
04:44 LazyJ This Watershed world of mine was started last fall, so it's a couple months old and however many Minetest (MTdev) updates in between.
04:45 LazyJ In that time I've stayed in the same area, mostly.
04:45 hmmmm yeah i have no idea unfortunately
04:46 LazyJ So, paramat, if you go looking for discontinuities, pick an old world and travel to the edge of places you haven't frequented.
04:46 paramat LJ yes exactly
04:49 paramat LJ you could return to an older version of MT to avoid anymore bug-cliffs
04:50 LazyJ Yup, that's my contingency plan.
04:51 paramat bisect = find a version that works, find a version that doesnt, try the version halfway between, repeat
04:51 LazyJ However, if this turns out to not be a fixable issue, then better to change my plans now than invest many more months.
04:53 LazyJ Unfortunately, I don't have a backup copy of this world that is old enough anymore.
04:54 LazyJ A short-coming of my backup practices that will be corrected.
04:56 LazyJ The loose plan, atm, is to sideline this world, try to extract the decent builds with WorldEdit (which was slightly broken in recent engine updates), and start a new world... after these bugs have been found and worked-out.
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05:05 paramat it sucks, but few log-term worlds escape glitches, it happens sometimes
05:07 LazyJ Aye.
05:07 LazyJ Wazuland2 has had it's share of gaffs and glitches along the way.
05:08 LazyJ That's a project far too large to just start over.
05:08 paramat good name
05:09 LazyJ Hehehe... a legacy name from when it used to be under the "Wazu Clan's" umbrella.
05:09 LazyJ Not all the big changes have been in the game itself.
05:12 LazyJ Well, when I began planning this Watershed world, I had two basic directions to choose from.
05:13 LazyJ Either stick with nothing but default vanilla like Solarz and "Karsthefan". Which would have avoided this current issue.
05:13 LazyJ Or go with custom, yet established, mods. Riskier for the long-term but with much tools and nodes to create with.
05:14 LazyJ I figured I could adapt or revive any "unknown nodes" so I opted for the more feature rich option.
05:15 paramat default vanilla may not have escaped this bug
05:15 LazyJ I've dealt with box cliffs and canyons before in Wazuland2. They are a feature now.
05:17 LazyJ I was going to leave it be until earlier this evening when the Watershed world crashed Minetest.
05:18 LazyJ I can build over, around and incorporate box cliffs and canyons... so long as the world loads. ;)-
05:19 LazyJ Which brought me to the "Don't start the engine. No problem -  no gas." that was just solved. ;)
05:20 LazyJ Ok, done typing. I've got a mess of temporary Mintest's, worlds and other files to sort.
05:24 paramat any idea which version of MT was the last that worked perfect for you? (ie no cliffs) or guess roughly
05:24 paramat oh sorry didn't see your last line
05:25 paramat O/
05:25 LazyJ No worries. I'm still at my computer. I just can't multi-task well enough to handle chat and the mess I've made on my screens. ;)
05:26 LazyJ Unfortunately I don't have the exact Git commit to go by, just the date that I download (I keep several Minetest versions in dated folders).
05:27 LazyJ 2014_12_10 is the version I used when the cliffs appeared. I've stayed in the same area most of the time so the cliffs glitch may have been there a long time before them.
05:29 LazyJ It wasn't until I went to a new... island?, continent? just off the shore of were I had been building that Minetest started generating a new portion and the cliffs appeared.
05:30 paramat thanks i'll do everything i can to fix this
05:30 LazyJ Thanks to you and hmmmm, too. ;)
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05:32 LazyJ Ah. It just occurred to me... in all this conversation there may have been some confusion. The Watershed world I'm have trouble with is my personal, singleplayer world, not the server "Wazuland2". That's mapgen v6.
05:32 LazyJ So I'm not dealing with any screaming players... at least not on that subject.
05:44 hmmmm why thanks to me?
05:44 hmmmm in all likelyhood i'm the one who broke it for everybody
05:45 hmmmm still I cannot comprehend how people could possibly trust their maps with bleeding-edge development versions
05:47 LazyJ If we didn't then problems like these would not be found.
05:48 hmmmm yes, but you could periodically back up your maps before using them on development versions...
05:48 LazyJ That I *will* do with more depth.
05:48 paramat weird thing is, if you /regened around the cliffs the new buggy terrain should expand into the old terrain. if nothing changed that is very weird
05:49 LazyJ I messed up and copied over the backup I had of a couple days ago.
05:49 LazyJ So now my oldest copy is just over a day old.
05:50 LazyJ Starting with this next round of backups, I'll be keeping several, progressively older copies of this world.
05:51 LazyJ As opposed to whatever was the last backup made.
05:51 hmmmm you could just make a copy of it right now, and keep it for when it gets fixed so you could regen the area for real
05:52 LazyJ Yup. Doing that.
05:57 LazyJ Oddly, the oldest (almost 2yrs now), "long-term" world I have is where I try out mods and build ideas. Junk is scattered everywhere in that world. I did whatever, where ever, whenever, because I was going to wipe the world and start over next week.
05:58 LazyJ Then it was the week after that, and another week,... now almost two years have gone by.
05:59 LazyJ Heh. My sturdiest, long-term world is the one I abused and was going to throw away every other time.
06:01 paramat LJ are you sure /regen made no change to terrain? it should now expand buggy terrain into older terrain
06:01 LazyJ Maybe because it's such a mess, all the glitches over time have been lost in rest of the chaos.
06:01 hmmmm paramat, were you not able to replicate the problem lazyj was having?
06:01 paramat i'm planning to, have to learn how to update back and forth through MT history to bisect
06:02 hmmmm well there is git bisect
06:02 hmmmm man git-bisect
06:02 LazyJ Those screenshots I posted are of areas that I flew into, above, under... each time using regen and waiting for the output in the terminal.
06:02 hmmmm but you could also use git reset --hard <commit number here>
06:03 paramat okay time for me to learn this stuff
06:05 LazyJ Another wrinkle in the puzzle: Three Watershed worlds, using the same seed and same mods, produced cliffs in different areas.
06:05 LazyJ Of the same world, I have three working copies.
06:06 LazyJ One is for tinkering with mods for that particular world.
06:06 LazyJ The second is purely for flying around to generate the terrain and produce overview maps of for planning.
06:06 LazyJ Then the third working copy is the main world.
06:06 paramat all 3 same version of watershed?
06:06 LazyJ Yup.
06:07 LazyJ Each time I update Minetest, I run these worlds and a few others to keep them updated with Minetest's changes.
06:08 LazyJ Possibly related is another, regular occurring anomaly in mapgen v6.
06:08 LazyJ One of my instances of Minetest is dedicated to testing and developing mods, each in their own dedicated world.
06:09 LazyJ I use the same map seed for all of them (1234567890).
06:09 paramat don't forget the watershed 3D map at 1/16th scale https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&amp​;t=8609&amp;hilit=watershed&amp;start=125#p150142
06:09 paramat and https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&amp​;t=8609&amp;hilit=watershed&amp;start=125#p152224
06:10 LazyJ I use the same static spawn point for each of these worlds so every time a new test world is started, I see the same terrain.
06:10 LazyJ There is an area not far from the spawn point that either is solid stone covered with grass or it's hollowed out.
06:11 LazyJ This varies from each new world to another of the same mapseed, same location.
06:11 LazyJ That's mapgen v6.
06:12 LazyJ I've just assumed that some random number was being used in the calculations that resulted in there being either a solid hill or not in the same spot.
06:12 paramat well caves are random
06:12 paramat and they carve shapes into terrain, in mgv6
06:12 hmmmm they're based on blockseed
06:12 LazyJ Once I get my Minetests settled in, I'll post two screenshots of the spot with the HUD coords in the display.
06:13 hmmmm ok
06:13 paramat caves are pseudorandom?
06:13 hmmmm they are
06:13 hmmmm everything is pseudorandom except for trees because they got moved out to lua and somebody botched them before that anyway
06:13 LazyJ 73 worlds using the same map seed, all mapgen v6.
06:14 hmmmm i think they like used myrand() instead of PseudoRandom::next()
06:14 hmmmm and then of course lsystem trees got botched as well
06:14 hmmmm it's very important to use PseudoRandom()
06:15 paramat i never expect trees to be identical in 2 worlds with same seed though
06:15 hmmmm if you decide you can't use PseudoRandom() because you don't have a seed to work with in your code's scope, then maybe you should reassess the situation and figure out a way to get a blockseed first
06:15 LazyJ afk for a bit.
06:16 paramat O/
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06:26 Zeno` LazyJ, (when you get back), how many threads are you using for cavegen?
06:27 LazyJ exit
06:27 LazyJ Did it again. Oy...
06:28 LazyJ Zeno`, what would I look for to find out? num_emerge_threads?
06:29 Zeno` yeah
06:29 LazyJ Whatever is default.
06:29 Zeno` ok :)
06:29 LazyJ Sorry, I don't have the technical expertise to provide better info. :(
06:30 Zeno` Nah, that's cool. I was just wondering about the random number generation
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06:58 LazyJ Ok, got things settled and sorted.
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07:01 LazyJ Next will be links to two screenshots of the same map seed (123456789), in the same location (coords: 52,6,128, yaw 30), from the same spawnpoint (0,0,0 - land in water), from Minetest Git commit 035e6bfc18 (posted about 3hrs ago) and minetest_game commit 99cfe73bbf (posted yesterday).
07:01 LazyJ "cave.png" shows a small cave.
07:01 LazyJ "no_cave.png" shows the same location without a cave.
07:02 LazyJ These are from two separate worlds, of the same setup specs, just created moments ago.
07:02 LazyJ https://dl.dropboxuserconte​nt.com/u/30991334/cave.png
07:02 LazyJ https://dl.dropboxuserconten​t.com/u/30991334/no_cave.png
07:03 LazyJ Check the upper-left HUD to confirm coords and version.
07:03 LazyJ The images are about 1.5mb each. Only way to capture the HUD info clear enough to read.
07:09 hmmmm hey LazyJ, in the world that has the cave there, look at the opposite wall
07:09 hmmmm can you take a screenshot of that?
07:10 LazyJ Opposite wall... where exactly? In the cave? Which direction?
07:11 hmmmm the wall opposite to the one that is visible in the screenshot
07:13 paramat thats at x = 52, you can see a change in terrain along y = 47 (mapchunk edge)
07:13 paramat x = 47
07:13 paramat large cave griefing at mapchunk edge?
07:14 paramat .. caused by order of mapchunk generation?
07:14 LazyJ So... in the cave, facing East?
07:15 LazyJ Clouds drift North to South. "East" would be positive x.
07:15 paramat yes
07:15 paramat yaw = 270
07:16 Zeno` man, no wonder I always get lost in the game. I thought the clouds drifted randomly and tried to follow the moss on trees
07:16 Zeno` I even have a star map that doesn't work
07:16 paramat i expect a flat wall running along x = 47
07:19 LazyJ coords: 41,3,139  yaw 303, inside cave, facing NE:
07:19 LazyJ https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/​u/30991334/cave_opposite_wall.png
07:19 hmmmm very odd..
07:20 LazyJ No landscaping mods installed; just default mapgen stuff.
07:20 hmmmm i have no explanation for that.  cave generation is 100% procedural
07:23 paramat mudflow might be hiding a flat wall?
07:23 LazyJ Aha.
07:24 LazyJ mgv6_spflags = biomeblend, jungles, mudflow
07:24 hmmmm that's normal..
07:24 hmmmm for what it's worth, my own version of the map at that position at that angle has no cave
07:25 LazyJ So I'm not *completely* senile yet. (phew)
07:25 gregorycu The caves are a little... open... aren't they?
07:26 hmmmm consistently too, might i add
07:28 hmmmm you know i think paramat is right
07:28 hmmmm look at how odd that piece of water is shaped
07:28 hmmmm i think it's mudflow hiding the walled-in cave
07:28 paramat that water pool in the cave has flowing water
07:29 paramat its lower in the middle
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07:30 hmmmm water_source has the waving shader applied to it as well
07:30 paramat ah water shders are on?
07:31 paramat yeah the slope looks too gentle to be flowing water levels
07:31 LazyJ Checking...
07:32 paramat there's definately a sudden change along x = 47
07:32 LazyJ Shaders, then the three "Waving" options are checked.
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07:33 hmmmm for what it's worth, around that area there are several rectangular-shaped mystery gaps
07:33 paramat the dirt terrain seems slightly different in the 2 original images, i guess because mudflow
07:33 hmmmm mudflow is deterministic
07:34 hmmmm all this is deterministic.  everything either uses perlin noise or pseudorandom
07:34 paramat but if the caves are diffenrent mudflow will be different
07:34 hmmmm booya
07:34 hmmmm on my third attempt I got a caved version
07:34 paramat lol
07:35 paramat caves are so problematic in mgv6 seeing this along x = 47 doesnt surprise me
07:36 paramat we're gonna move to noise-determined caves in all other mapgens
07:38 hmmmm alrighty
07:38 LazyJ I just looked... the map_meta_txt files are formatted differently than some of the older test worlds.
07:39 hmmmm so I just replaced cave air with glass
07:40 hmmmm there's simply no piece of cave there at all
07:42 hmmmm alright got it
07:42 hmmmm it's a large_cave
07:46 paramat it looks like the edge of a large cave bleeding across a mapchunk border, i used to get those in my lua mapgens all the time
07:46 hmmmm i don't get why it sometimes appears
07:47 hmmmm half the large cave is walled in, sure, but it doesn't exist at all in most other versions
07:48 gregorycu Is there a good way to profile mods to see how much time they use of the cpu
07:48 gregorycu I'm making a mod, but I want to have a handle on perf from the start
07:52 paramat yeah you can time mods, see any of my recent mods for the code
07:54 kahrl in recent versions you can add mod_profiling = true to minetest.conf
07:54 kahrl then run the server for a bit and type the chat command /save_mod_profile
07:54 gregorycu Thanks mate
07:55 kahrl detailed_profiling = true if you want more details
07:57 paramat okay i ran identical watershed versions with identical seeds, one in latest git, one in a months-old MT, can confirm similar-but-different terrains
07:57 gregorycu Apparently an invalid command
07:57 hmmmm it's simply a boundary condition large cave messup
07:58 hmmmm there's no reason to be worried i think
07:58 gregorycu I have 4.10
07:58 paramat yeah different issue to LJ's
07:58 hmmmm ??
07:58 gregorycu I'll dig around
08:00 paramat old MT version https://cdn.mediacru.sh/D/D4RoEZLzMHLh.png
08:00 paramat latest git https://cdn.mediacru.sh/h/hnQFCLE8ixwf.png
08:00 paramat biomes and trees very similar, terrain different
08:01 hmmmm what is that
08:01 hmmmm v5?
08:01 paramat watershed
08:02 hmmmm something obviously screwed up...
08:02 hmmmm bisect time?
08:03 paramat yep, in the next few days
08:03 paramat latest git seems spikier, like persist increased
08:04 paramat the fissures are very similar too
08:05 paramat i look forward to relaxing with some lua modding after 0.4.11 is out `=P
08:05 LazyJ So, if I understand it correctly, "bisecting" means to start with an old version of Minetest, create a world, then switch to the newest version of Minetest, recreate that world with the same specs, and keep working through the Minetest commits till there is a match, then backup one to identify the commit that's affecting the change?
08:06 Everdras LazyJ: bisecting means doing a binary search through commits to find the defect
08:06 hmmmm the point of it is to find the commit that's creating the problem, yes, but you don't keep trying each one
08:06 Everdras so you start with one that's bad, and one that's good
08:07 paramat 'yeah different issue to LJ's' sorry both issues are LJ's ... it's 8am here
08:07 Everdras it knows the commit that introduced it is in between
08:07 LazyJ 12am here and the coffee isn't doing it for me anymore.
08:07 Everdras so it goes halfway: is it still good? go nearer to the present. is it bad now? go further back
08:07 Everdras repeat till you're at the naughty commit
08:08 Zeno` hey, that sounds like a binary search!
08:08 Zeno` the things people think of
08:08 Everdras which is why I said...
08:08 Zeno` 'tis amazing
08:08 LazyJ How far back to start with, paramat?
08:08 Everdras "bisecting means doing a bsearch through commits"
08:08 Everdras any good commit works
08:09 LazyJ Trouble is, at this point, we aren't sure how old this problem is, no idea what was the last good commit.
08:09 paramat erm i would start with a version just before hmmmmm's recent batch of commits, so a week or 2 ago
08:09 Everdras guess you could binary search for that
08:10 Everdras start halfway... is it broken? no, go into the future, yes, go into the past
08:10 hmmmm they should take commit privs away from me
08:10 hmmmm i did horrible things with the codebase the past 2-3 days
08:10 paramat nah good things, just a lot of stuff so a problem is not unexpected
08:11 Everdras "even perfect code has bugs"
08:15 paramat my guess is something to do with 3D noise, something that increases persistence
08:16 gregorycu Is there a list of upcoming enhancements?
08:19 paramat time to sleep on it ..
08:20 LazyJ G'night and thanks ;)
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08:26 LazyJ Zeno`, I've got a couple lines of core dumps for you, if they make any sense.
08:26 LazyJ ~/scripts/lazyj.sh: line 2: 21579 Segmentation fault      (core dumped) ~/Minetest/Minetest_game_stuff/0​1_minetest/lazyj/bin/./minetest --logfile ''
08:27 LazyJ Then from yesterday:
08:27 LazyJ *** Error in `~/Minetest/Minetest_game_stuff/0​1_minetest/lazyj/bin/./minetest': double free or corruption (!prev): 0x0000000002cec570 ***
08:27 LazyJ ~/scripts/lazyj.sh: line 2: 22470 Aborted                 (core dumped) ~/Minetest/Minetest_game_stuff/0​1_minetest/lazyj/bin/./minetest --logfile ''
08:29 LazyJ If I allowed Minetest to create the debug.txt file, would it provide any useful info in this case?
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09:31 Zeno` ahh, the Krock is here
09:31 Krock omg. where?
09:31 Zeno` the one blaming me for stuff I have nothing to do with :P~~~
09:31 Zeno` there!
09:31 Zeno` he spoketh!
09:31 Zeno` I heard the Krock utter words!
09:32 Zeno` heh
09:32 Krock Ok. My guess for the 'bad commit' was wrong then.
09:33 * Zeno` forgives you
09:33 Zeno` I bet you feel a lot better now. lmao
09:34 Krock same as today morning after eating some braid with cheese
09:36 Zeno` what's that
09:37 Krock http://www.baeckerei-bohnenblust.ch/pictures/8​b/ghrmq2qqrotvlfpvikf3szro9ryl1w/zopf-428.jpg
09:38 Zeno` oh. they look awesome
09:39 Krock srsly, you've never had that ... food?
09:39 Krock such tasty
09:40 Zeno` yes we have similar
09:45 jin_xi joined #minetest
09:49 * Krock wonders why the craftive-icon has a black background
09:49 * Krock wants to say creative.
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09:55 Wuzzy Hi, how do I avoid making items disappear automatically?
09:56 Wuzzy (dropped items, of course)
09:56 Krock They shouldn't disappear at all
09:57 Wuzzy even after 10 min?
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09:58 Wuzzy I heard of a setting called “item_entity_ttl” but I am not sure if this still works
09:58 LazyJ # Time in seconds for item entity to live. Default value: 900s
09:58 LazyJ # Setting it to -1 disables the feature
09:59 LazyJ Default  #item_entity_ttl = 900
09:59 LazyJ Which it said in the first line. (facepalms)
09:59 Wuzzy not in my files
10:00 Wuzzy I wonder if it is  still active in current dev versions
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10:00 LazyJ minetest.conf.example of 2014_12_12 has it at line 288.
10:01 Wuzzy that doesnt mean the setting still *works* ;)
10:01 PenguinDad Wuzzy: the setting still works
10:01 Wuzzy how do you know?
10:01 LazyJ It works in my singleplayer worlds.
10:01 Wuzzy Did you test it?
10:01 Wuzzy Does -1 also work?
10:01 Wuzzy for you
10:02 LazyJ I have mine set for 0 (instant delete).
10:02 LazyJ I play in creative-mode so I don't need the litter.
10:02 Wuzzy I have a problem with my tutorial world.
10:02 Wuzzy In dev versions of Minetest, items do not appear in the world anymore
10:02 Wuzzy of Tutorial World
10:03 Wuzzy in 0.4.10, items are there
10:03 Wuzzy but if I start Tutorial world in dev, items are not there :(
10:03 Wuzzy Oh, and I set item_entity_ttl to -1 in minetest.conf of game
10:03 Wuzzy I am very very puzzled about this
10:03 Wuzzy sadly, this breaks the tutorial
10:04 Krock minetest.setting_set("item_entity_ttl", "-1");
10:04 LazyJ Is the tutorial strictly vanilla?
10:04 Wuzzy I also have to say, the items there are very “old”, a lot more than just 15 minutes for sure
10:05 Wuzzy No, it uses its own subgame I wrote.
10:05 Amaz Do you have that setting in your normal minetest.conf?
10:05 Wuzzy Krock: Why should I do this? What’s the point of minetest.conf in subgame then?
10:05 Wuzzy No, in minetest.conf in subgame folder.
10:06 Krock Oh. does that file actualy get read by th engine?
10:06 Amaz So that setting does not exist at all in your normal minetest.conf?
10:06 Wuzzy No, of course not. I don’t want to have it globally for all worlds.
10:06 Wuzzy Also, it would make it non-distributable.
10:06 Amaz Okay.
10:07 Wuzzy The strange thing is, Tutorial World items are there in 0.4.10, but are gone in dev :(
10:07 Amaz Just checking because if you had it with a different value in the global minetest.conf, it would overwrite the game's minetest.conf.
10:08 PenguinDad Wuzzy: afaik some change in latest dev broke the reading of minetest.conf in the game's folder
10:08 Wuzzy I am not the only one experiencing the problem. In fact, c55 reported it.
10:08 Wuzzy -_- lol
10:08 Wuzzy That would explain it.
10:08 Wuzzy Can you gimme link to issue?
10:08 Wuzzy weit
10:08 Wuzzy I have to check it
10:08 PenguinDad There's no issue yet
10:09 Wuzzy Hmm, in minetest.conf I can just store any arbitrary key-value thing, right?
10:09 Krock yeah
10:09 Wuzzy So I could type in “some_crap = 34” and read it afterwards by scritps and stuff, right?
10:09 PenguinDad yes
10:09 Wuzzy oh great, then I can test if the minetest.conf feature is broken for me.
10:09 Krock minetest.setting_get("some_crap") -> 34
10:10 Wuzzy or just /set some_crap in console ;)
10:11 Krock * /set -n some_crap xyz
10:11 Wuzzy ugh, I just want to read it
10:13 Wuzzy Yes, it’s true.
10:13 Wuzzy Any setting I set in subgame’s minetest.conf are not set :O
10:13 * PenguinDad jumps on the hype train
10:13 Wuzzy omg why is there no issue for this bug yet
10:13 Wuzzy I guess I better report it lol
10:13 Wuzzy hmm wait, better I update my source before that
10:14 Wuzzy Thanks, people for your help. :)
10:14 Krock !c 900 / 60
10:14 MinetestBot 15.0
10:14 Krock !c 30 * 60
10:14 MinetestBot 1800
10:17 Zeno` I wanted to print ZERO and my program prints ZENO
10:17 Zeno` this is not good
10:17 Krock xD
10:17 * Zeno` fears for his sanity
10:18 PenguinDad Zeno`: did you start with it --disable-unittests? :P
10:18 jin_xi Zeno, crash minetestbot with a division!
10:19 Wuzzy !c 0/0
10:19 MinetestBot ZeroDivisionError: division by zero
10:19 Wuzzy nice try
10:19 Wuzzy What is 10 divided by Zeno?
10:19 jin_xi 11
10:19 Krock !c 10 / Zeno
10:19 MinetestBot NameError: name 'Zeno' is not defined
10:20 Krock Zeno`, who are you?
10:20 PenguinDad !c 42 / 0
10:20 MinetestBot ZeroDivisionError: division by zero
10:20 PenguinDad :(
10:20 Krock but 0 / 0 should result in "Not defined"
10:20 Wuzzy Zeno = 0.90909090909090…
10:21 Krock !c (10*10) / (9*9)
10:21 MinetestBot 1.2345679012345678
10:21 Zeno` Zeno`, it's ok, you're probably just tired
10:21 Zeno` Thanks Zenie
10:23 Zeno` !c 1 / 10 * 3
10:23 MinetestBot 0.30000000000000004
10:23 Zeno` !c 1 / (10 * 3)
10:23 MinetestBot 0.03333333333333333
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10:23 Zeno` !c 1 / (10 / 3)
10:23 MinetestBot 0.3
10:23 Zeno` amazing
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10:24 Zeno` !c 1 / 10 * 3
10:24 MinetestBot 0.30000000000000004
10:24 Zeno` !c 3 * 1 / 10
10:24 MinetestBot 0.3
10:24 Wuzzy hahaha
10:24 Zeno` the bot is crazy
10:24 PenguinDad D:
10:24 Wuzzy maybe it runs on Intel XD
10:26 Zeno` what can we do?!
10:26 Zeno` I propose a...
10:26 Zeno` I don't know what do to!
10:26 PenguinDad Listen to good music?!
10:26 Zeno` ok
10:27 Zeno` !1==1
10:27 Zeno` !c 1==1
10:27 MinetestBot True
10:27 Zeno` TRUE!
10:27 Zeno` !c 10 * 3 / 4 + 1 == 1 + 3 * 10 / 4
10:27 MinetestBot True
10:27 Zeno` TRUE!
10:27 PenguinDad !c 1>2==False
10:27 MinetestBot False
10:27 PenguinDad D:
10:27 Zeno` it's broken!
10:28 Amaz !c 1!=2
10:28 MinetestBot True
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10:28 PenguinDad !c (1>2)==False
10:28 MinetestBot True
10:28 PenguinDad :D
10:29 Krock ehm. why can't I override builtin:item anymore?
10:29 Jordach always blame ShadowNinja if something edits builtin
10:29 Zeno` !c 3*1/41 == 1/31*3
10:29 MinetestBot False
10:30 Zeno` !c 3*1/41 == 1/41*3
10:30 MinetestBot False
10:30 Zeno` *GASP*
10:31 PenguinDad !c *1/41 - 1/41*3
10:31 MinetestBot SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
10:31 Trustable joined #minetest
10:31 PenguinDad !c 3*1/41 - 1/41*3
10:31 MinetestBot -1.3877787807814457e-17
10:33 Zeno` O.O
10:33 Krock it calculates like (3*1)/41 - (1/41)*3
10:34 Krock but both should result in the same thing..
10:34 Krock !c (3*1)/41 == (1/41)*3
10:34 MinetestBot False
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10:35 Zeno` !c 1000 + 0100 + 0010 + 0001
10:35 MinetestBot SyntaxError: invalid token (<string>, line 1)
10:35 Zeno` broken
10:35 Zeno` !c (1000 + 0100 + 0010 + 0001)
10:35 MinetestBot SyntaxError: invalid token (<string>, line 1)
10:35 Krock !c 1000+ 100 + 10+1
10:35 MinetestBot 1111
10:36 Zeno` we've upset it
10:36 PenguinDad *her
10:36 Zeno` her*
10:37 Zeno` http://codepad.org/AZhF7Cik
10:37 Zeno` codepad broken as well :(
10:37 Zeno` has there been a sun flare?
10:38 Krock Zeno`, you're sure it's not counted as 0b0010 ?
10:39 Krock !c 2 + 4 + 8 - 1 + 1000
10:39 MinetestBot 1013
10:39 Zeno` -1 ?
10:40 Zeno` 0b1kan0b?
10:40 Krock not sure why I did -1
10:40 Zeno` codepad is obviously broken
10:41 GeHa joined #minetest
10:41 Zeno` or C
10:41 Zeno` one of the two
10:41 Trustable joined #minetest
10:41 PenguinDad or both :P
10:42 Trustable joined #minetest
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10:43 Zeno` PenguinDad, I have made a terrible discovery
10:43 Zeno` python -c "print 1000 + 0100 + 0010 + 0001"
10:43 Zeno` 1073?!
10:44 * Zeno` looks for his straight jacket
10:44 PenguinDad Zeno`: lua says it's 1111
10:44 Zeno` Lua is broken
10:44 Zeno` lol
10:45 Krock Zeno`, Visual C++ returns 1073 too
10:46 Zeno` :-o
10:46 Zeno` so does Perl!
10:46 jin_xi its octal with leading 0
10:46 Zeno` jin_xi, why do you ruin my fun? :(
10:46 * Zeno` gets grumpy
10:46 jin_xi Muahahahah now go fix that leak
10:46 Zeno` hehehe
10:47 * PenguinDad leaks a few globals :>
10:49 Trustable joined #minetest
10:49 Zeno` leak?
10:49 Zeno` what leak? >.>
10:49 Zeno` that's CACHE
10:50 Zeno` I don't think I should have had those beers
10:51 Zeno` that leak goes back a loooong way btw
10:51 Zeno` I tried to bisect but gave up because it was taking so long
10:51 * Krock loves headers like "typedef unsigned char u8;"
10:51 Krock much easier to type
10:51 Zeno` pity char is not necessarily 8 bits
10:52 Krock damn those exceptions
10:52 jin_xi ugh its wrong anyway. should be just chars and signed chars. same with int. fuck this shite
10:52 Zeno` that's what I say as well
10:53 Zeno` well... whether or not char is signed or unsigned is implementation defined
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10:56 Zeno` and char on one of my CPUs has 12 bits
10:56 Zeno` kind of annoying
10:57 PenguinDad Zeno`: why not 16 bits?
10:57 Zeno` PenguinDad, I guess it likes 12
10:57 PenguinDad But I like powers of two
10:57 Zeno` there are a lot of 12-bit DSPs
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11:06 Zeno` ranges in voxels are strange
11:07 Zeno` I think they depend on orientation :/
11:08 Zeno` Wuzzy, do you still have your bug?
11:09 Wuzzy I have not tested in new version yet
11:10 Zeno` ok
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11:14 CWz so Zeno` how much of a performance boost do you predict after your server optimizations
11:14 Zeno` not much
11:14 Zeno` who told you I was looking at the server? :)
11:15 PenguinDad A performance boost of about 2^512% :P
11:15 Zeno` lol
11:15 Zeno` yes, as I said: not much
11:15 Zeno` there bottlenecks I've mostly addressed when concentrating on the client
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11:17 Zeno` there is something very strange about voxels
11:18 Zeno` VoxelAreas*
11:18 Krock Whoa Brain has crashed! Restart now?
11:22 Tux[Qyou] joined #minetest
11:24 Zeno` Not the Whoa Brain!
11:25 Zeno` wait, what's the Whoa Brain?
11:25 Trustable joined #minetest
11:26 PenguinDad Whoa Google Chrome!
11:26 PenguinDad lol
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11:58 MinetestBot [git] PilzAdam -> minetest/minetest_game: Fix typo in furnace.lua 854415f http://git.io/Oox5Cg (2014-12-13T12:52:47+01:00)
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12:05 MinetestBot [git] PilzAdam -> minetest/minetest: Update german translation ce4ed65 http://git.io/GP2byw (2014-12-13T13:00:11+01:00)
12:06 zat joined #minetest
12:07 hisforeverkid need a past url please?
12:07 hisforeverkid pasre
12:08 hisforeverkid wish I could type lol
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12:29 hisforeverkid dose anybody have a url for paste ?
12:30 ElectronLibre http://pastie.org <= This one for example?
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13:00 MinetestBot [git] Zeno- -> minetest/minetest: Provide more info if a subgame is not valid/found a145a6a http://git.io/FFpxNQ (2014-12-13T22:58:34+10:00)
13:02 MinetestBot [git] Zeno- -> minetest/minetest: Provide more info if a subgame is not valid/found 784a452 http://git.io/T_llMg (2014-12-13T23:01:16+10:00)
13:06 Zeno` yes, yes
13:10 Amaz MinetestBot, you may like Zeno` but is it really necessary to tell us about his commit twice? ;)
13:29 MinetestBot Amaz: yes, it is, because they are actually different commits (look at the IDs)
13:29 Amaz Opps.
13:30 Amaz My apologises then MinetestBot!
13:30 sfan5 Release Candidate builds for 0.4.11 are out: https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=18&amp;t=10742
13:31 Amaz Shows what skim reading does ;P
13:31 Amaz So is there a feature freeze now?
13:32 PenguinDad Amaz: just look at the topic in the dev channel :P
13:32 Amaz I could, but there is the factor of laziness :P
13:33 Amaz I mean, I would have to type /topic !
13:33 Amaz Hang on, I just did it! ;)
13:33 PenguinDad "FEATURE FREEZE FOR 0.4.11 IN EFFECT! | Minetest core development and maintenance..."
13:33 hisforeverkid how can I correct this spanning errors http://pastie.org/9778103?
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14:19 MinetestBot [git] Zeno- -> minetest/minetest: Fix misleading error when exiting the client from the main menu b5e11e0 http://git.io/U5F3CQ (2014-12-14T00:07:44+10:00)
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14:27 blaze blais3: hi
14:28 proller joined #minetest
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14:53 Jordach PenguinDad, Savant's new album be out
14:53 Tuxedo[Qyou] joined #minetest
14:56 deltib joined #minetest
14:58 PenguinDad Jordach: I know dat
15:02 ElectronLibre_ joined #minetest
15:04 Zeno` nerrrrrrrrrrrr I know dat too :p
15:05 eeeeeta joined #minetest
15:05 Zeno` whois is Savant?
15:05 catninja Happy lucia everyone!
15:05 PenguinDad Take my hand we'll go to zion *sings*
15:06 LazyJ Savant is the number before ate. :0)
15:06 LazyJ idk either, I haven't kept up kids music.
15:07 ElectronLibre catninja: Did you mean light's day?
15:08 catninja ElectronLibre: no http://vimeo.com/55253944 lucia day
15:10 ElectronLibre That's what I thought. It's the day of holy light's (I don't know how to say it in english in french it's "Saintes Lumières"). (It's the holy day for everyone how have a name like Lucy, Aurore, everything light-related)
15:11 PenguinDad Holy day for lighz bulbs :D
15:11 PenguinDad *light
15:11 catninja ElectronLibre: oh cool!
15:12 * ElectronLibre thinks of the one which is working since 1901 in a fire station ._.
15:12 catninja soon its midwintersnight too, darkest day of the year! the day of sacrificing animals and such to get the sun back
15:13 catninja 20th of december, 4h 16min of sunlight here
15:13 ElectronLibre 4h of sunlight in Sweden.. Wow.. ._.
15:15 PenguinDad LazyJ, Zeno`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhPSwF​dgS8&amp;list=UU5ur2L6Zu4oCShmtFw9UTfQ
15:16 catninja were still south of the polar circle, when my mother was young grandpa used to sit and watch the sun go down for the last time in 3weeks with pain in his eyes
15:16 LazyJ "Arrival" - Ok, thanks, PenguinDad ;)
15:16 Zeno` sounds like a tracker track
15:17 LazyJ Heh. I was thinking some of tunes from the video games I wasted all my quarters on.
15:17 Zeno` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9zmLQGBTIw
15:18 ElectronLibre Catninja: It must be beautiful *-*
15:18 LazyJ But it's not as harsh sounding as I was expecting.
15:19 LazyJ Ahh.. now that tune brings back memories. That and the theme song to Top Gun where the local radio station's favorites.
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15:20 catninja ElectronLibre: it is, the sami land is beautiful, sometimes reindeers wanders off into town and there is crazy aurora borealis since there is no light to disturb the sight
15:24 catninja omg an aurora borealismod would be sooo coool for minetest *____
15:24 catninja *
15:25 * ElectronLibre imagines the scene *-*
15:26 Zeno` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlfYF79ENf8
15:27 catninja Zeno`: you are ruining the mood x)
15:27 Zeno` sowwy :(
15:27 Zeno` what mood?
15:27 catninja wintery dream mood
15:28 Zeno` Oh, sorry, I was going back to The Scene
15:28 Zeno` the scene these days is not what it used to be ;(
15:28 catninja I think both canadians and swedes would be happy about a reindeer, moose and auroramod. that would be golden.
15:29 catninja realistic reindeers that do not move when you walk into them
15:29 catninja stupid reindeers *mutters*
15:29 LazyJ Was it really 1994!? (groan) When did yesterday become 20yrs?
15:29 Zeno` how about PC speaker music?
15:29 Zeno` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu5zd5fCaPA
15:30 Zeno` who needs a sound card
15:31 LazyJ Oh, joys. The little paper speakers of "beep, beep, beep" (you installed the ribbons or some DIP switch wrong).
15:31 catninja I do not think I'm old enough for this discussion
15:31 Zeno` LazyJ, I even made one of my old floppy disks play music (sounded terrible though)
15:32 Zeno` catninja, the PC speaker is supposed to beep and nothing else
15:32 LazyJ The 3.5 floppies or the 5.25 real floppies?
15:32 Zeno` and it is beeping... just very fast ;)
15:32 Zeno` 3.5 floppy drive
15:32 exio4 I remember a program I made in turbopascal!
15:33 Zeno` LazyJ, the REAL floppies are 8"
15:33 ElectronLibre Oh my.. Back in the 80-90's!
15:33 exio4 that did that, I found a procedure that did the tricks for the beeps
15:33 exio4 and I then made "music" with it & sleep :D
15:33 catninja Zeno`: *backs away slowly*
15:33 Zeno` exio4, yeah. We made do with what we had :)
15:34 exio4 I wish I didn't lose my "super-engine" in turbopascal+vga graphics
15:34 exio4 I remember writing a "nearly-bruteforce" approach for drawing lines
15:34 exio4 (because I didn't have the math skills for doing it properly)
15:35 exio4 I made it draw cubes, most of the stuff was hardcoded and obviously only wireframe, but it was like a work of 3-4 weeks til I got something that worked! it was too slow for anything sane though
15:35 exio4 ;_; I wish I was a child again
15:36 exio4 I don't remember the approach I used, I remember I did some dirty tricks for converting things to "my own way to measure angles" and then do magic with that :P
15:36 Zeno` hehe ;)
15:36 exio4 iirc I used an scale from 1 to 16 or 8, so it wasn't _that_ smooth
15:37 exio4 (the approach = how I did it, I remember the high-level details)
15:37 Viper168 joined #minetest
15:37 exio4 I should install W98 again and turbopascal again!
15:37 Zeno` you should
15:37 Zeno` why not?!
15:38 exio4 because I am lazy!
15:38 exio4 if I wasn't a lazy ass I would have done a lot more for other people, and even minetest!
15:41 Zeno` hehehe
15:43 proller joined #minetest
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15:52 AnotherBrick joined #minetest
15:52 PenguinDad ChanServ: come back soon! :(
15:53 Wayward_One joined #minetest
15:56 exio41 joined #minetest
15:56 shadowzone PenguinDad, you got that too?
15:57 crazyR joined #minetest
15:57 exio41 left #minetest
15:57 PenguinDad shadowzone: WALLOPS
15:57 shadowzone Lol
15:59 ElectronLibre It's the precise moment we musn't all be disconnected of the channel :°...
16:00 GeHa joined #minetest
16:01 shadowzone atleast we have ShadowBot and MinetestBot
16:03 Krock o.o CHanServ is gone
16:03 shadowzone YEs
16:03 shadowzone just died
16:04 PenguinDad Krock: even ChanServ needs a break :D
16:04 Krock PenguinDad, I see
16:05 * PenguinDad is a bit sad because he switches to windows on monday
16:05 shadowzone Why not dual boot?
16:05 ElectronLibre Oh poor you :'(
16:05 * Krock is a bit happy because he doesn't need to switch to windows
16:05 PenguinDad shadowzone: I might do that sometime later
16:05 shadowzone Wincrap
16:06 * Krock fills shadowzone with Windoze
16:06 shadowzone Krock, what fer?
16:06 * PenguinDad drinks some Winbooze
16:08 * ElectronLibre is a bit sad because he has to move about a thousand of global variables to local variables for some servers --'
16:08 kilbith left #minetest
16:09 Krock ElectronLibre, just put a "--[[" blah blah "]]" around everything. problem solved.
16:10 ElectronLibre But I'm gonna get a lot of these purple Unkown nodes, and the servers' owners' won't be happy.. :°
16:11 Krock :/
16:11 ElectronLibre I've got enough time to move them, it's just gonna take at least 2 hours..
16:23 ChanServ joined #minetest
16:24 * PenguinDad hugs ChanServ
16:24 Calinou joined #minetest
16:24 Akagi201 joined #minetest
16:24 jojoa1997 joined #minetest
16:24 ElectronLibre He is back :3
16:27 shadowzone CHANSERV!
16:27 PenguinDad ElectronLibre: *she
16:27 ElectronLibre Sorry.
16:28 PenguinDad cause all bots are female
16:28 ElectronLibre Yes, I've just remembered.
16:30 Calinou bots don't have a gender, they don't think
16:31 Wayward_One joined #minetest
16:32 kaeza joined #minetest
16:37 exio4 what do you think they are Calinou
16:37 exio4 just programs?
16:37 exio4 no, they are living things!
16:37 Calinou they are bots, they… obey (at best)
16:37 exio4 what if you want to marry with a bot? is that illegal?
16:37 Krock ^
16:37 Calinou yes
16:38 Krock Fritigern, happy b-day!
16:38 Zeno` !c 3/1/4 == 3/4/1
16:38 MinetestBot True
16:38 ElectronLibre It's just useless.
16:38 Zeno` !c 3/10/4 == 3/(4/10)
16:38 MinetestBot False
16:38 Zeno` !c 3/4/10 == 3/(4/10)
16:38 MinetestBot False
16:38 exio4 that is discrimination Calinou
16:38 Krock !c 27**(1/3)
16:38 MinetestBot 3.0
16:39 Zeno` !c 5/6*11 == 5/(6*11)
16:39 MinetestBot False
16:39 Zeno` broken
16:39 Zeno` beyond hope
16:39 shadowzone no ChanServ is a male
16:39 shadowzone MinetestBot and ShadowBot are female
16:39 exio4 you wish
16:40 Krock Zeno`, it's not broken since 5/6 * 11 is not 5/66
16:40 Zeno` oh yeah!
16:40 Zeno` !c 5/6*11 == 5/(11*6)
16:40 MinetestBot False
16:40 Zeno` still broken :(
16:40 Krock still not broken. same thing again
16:41 ElectronLibre !c (5/6)*11 = 5/6*11
16:41 MinetestBot SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:41 ElectronLibre !c (5/6)*11 == 5/6*11
16:41 MinetestBot True
16:41 ElectronLibre ^ Not broken.
16:41 Zeno` !c 5/6*11 == 11*5/6
16:41 MinetestBot False
16:41 Krock !c 5*11/6 == 5*(11/6)
16:41 MinetestBot True
16:41 Krock ^not broken
16:41 Zeno` !c 5/6*11 == 11*5/6
16:41 MinetestBot False
16:41 Zeno` broken
16:42 Krock Zeno`, it calculates from left to right, so it's correct
16:42 Zeno` huh?
16:42 Zeno` !c 1/10*4 == 4*1/10
16:42 MinetestBot True
16:42 Krock 5/66 != 55/6
16:42 ElectronLibre Operators' proprities.
16:42 Zeno` !c 1/11*4 == 4*1/11
16:42 MinetestBot True
16:43 Krock yes, that's correct
16:43 ElectronLibre (I learnt that when I was 7)
16:43 Zeno` !c 3*4/2 == 3/2*4
16:43 MinetestBot True
16:43 Zeno` it works!
16:43 Zeno` amazing!
16:43 Krock yomg wow
16:43 Krock now verify it with ShadowBot's results
16:43 Zeno` !c 3/1/4 == 3/4/1
16:43 MinetestBot ...
16:44 Krock ^ xD
16:44 Krock it would be true btw
16:44 Zeno` !c 3/4*3 == 3*3/4
16:44 MinetestBot ...
16:44 Zeno` it broken again
16:44 Krock ##minetestbot
16:44 ElectronLibre She's just annoyed.
16:45 Zeno` put her back
16:45 Zeno` !c 3/14*3 == 3*3/14
16:45 MinetestBot False
16:45 Zeno` see?
16:45 Zeno` broken
16:46 Krock yes, now it is
16:46 Krock you broke it!
16:46 Zeno` I sowwy :(
16:46 Krock pls2repair Zeno`!
16:46 mizux joined #minetest
16:48 Zeno` !c 1/3 * 1/2 == 1/2 * 1/3
16:48 MinetestBot True
16:48 Zeno` fixed!
16:49 Zeno` !c 5/16 * 1/2 == 1/2 * 5/16
16:49 MinetestBot True
16:49 Zeno` yep, she's as good as new
16:50 Krock ShadowBot: calc 2/4*5 == 5*2/4
16:50 ShadowBot Krock: 1
16:50 Krock <3 ShadowBot
16:50 ShadowBot 04♥ Krock.
16:50 ElectronLibre How can she send a heart? ._.
16:50 Sokomine hi. has anyone got got any simple, small houses at hand for a test? need to be schematics
16:50 Krock ElectronLibre, ASCII codes
16:50 ElectronLibre Oh.
16:51 Krock Sokomine, how 'bout thosefrom mg_villages? :3
16:51 Zeno` !c 3/2 == 1 / (2/3)
16:51 MinetestBot ...
16:51 Zeno` she's broken again
16:51 shadowzone so MinetestBot is broken and ShadowBot is working just fine?
16:51 Sokomine Krock: i've added an option so that people can add their own villages easily. now i need something to demonstrate that feature
16:52 Sokomine after all this is a game where people are supposed to build. it'd be very boring if there's no way to add own structures easily
16:52 Krock Sokomine, http://nimg.pf-control.de/MT​stuff/modSearch.php?q=house #2
16:52 Krock aarg
16:52 Krock it doesn't have schematics
16:53 Zeno` !c 5/5 + 1/8 == 1/8 + 4/4
16:53 MinetestBot True
16:53 Sokomine Krock: ah, good idea. hm, yes, currently mg_villages only supports recent worldedit, and it likes .mts far more
16:54 Krock Sokomine, okay.. how about this one? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=6221 Haven't tested it
16:55 PenguinDad <3 ShadowBot
16:55 ShadowBot 04♥ PenguinDad.
16:55 Sokomine towntest may be suitable
17:01 Zeno` !c 1/10*7.1 == 7.1*1/10
17:01 MinetestBot True
17:02 hmmmm joined #minetest
17:04 Zeno` !c 1.1/3.0*4.1 == 4.1*1.1/3.0
17:04 MinetestBot False
17:04 Zeno` she's broken again!
17:05 Zeno` maybe we should put her to sleep?
17:06 PenguinDad !c math.e<3<math.pi
17:06 MinetestBot True
17:06 PenguinDad D:
17:06 Zeno` D:
17:08 Zeno` !c 2.718 / 3.14 * 3/10 == 3/10 * 2.718/3.14
17:08 MinetestBot ...
17:08 Zeno` D:
17:08 Zeno` maybe she needs parenthesis
17:09 Zeno` !c (2.718/3.14 * 3.0/10) == (3.0/10 * 2.718/3.14)
17:09 MinetestBot ...
17:09 Zeno` nope
17:09 Zeno` !c (2.718/3.14 * 3.0/10) - (3.0/10 * 2.718/3.14)
17:09 MinetestBot 0.0
17:09 Zeno` O.O
17:10 Zeno` lol, night all ;)
17:13 GrimKriegor joined #minetest
17:14 crazyR hi everyone :D
17:14 Zeno` (btw, I think she likes me)
17:14 The_Loko joined #minetest
17:17 Krock hi crazyR
17:25 Krock damn. - Erroneous Nickname (/help)
17:26 \er heh
17:28 \WINNT\System32 delete me!
17:28 kaeza greetings
17:29 Krock kaeza, you're outdated. Windows 2k/4
17:29 \wat kaeza: I don't understand
17:29 \wat :P
17:29 Krock \wat, wat?
17:29 \wat Krock: Krock?
17:30 Krock sfan5, a MSVC build from today, I'm not sure if it's a release candidate :3 https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=164250#p164250
17:31 Krock \wat, it must be like: Krock, \Krock?
17:32 \wat \\\z_last_name: \\z_last_name?
17:32 \\\z_last_name \wat: wat?
17:32 ElectronLibre What the shell are you both doing? ._.
17:32 Krock sheling 'round
17:32 \wat ElectronLibre: I've got no flippin' idea
17:34 ElectronLibre I see... ._.
17:35 * ElectronLibre goes away, otherwise he could be infected o_o
17:35 ElectronLibre left #minetest
17:36 kaeza too many nicks grouped to my account
17:37 kaeza -NickServ- Nicks: kaeza kaeza1 kaeza|jEdit diemartin k-mt ZXSpectrum11 the_real_kaeza blaaaaargh ZenithRAM VRock snaaaaake spaaaaace \WINNT\System32
17:37 Krock duh. a lag of 10s at NickServ
17:38 Krock !ping
17:38 Krock ShadowBot: ping
17:38 ShadowBot pong
17:40 kaeza looks like freenode is derping
17:40 \wat I only have these Nicks: PenguinDad GhostDoge DogePony
17:41 Krock I only have Krock.
17:49 hmmmm hey guys
17:49 hmmmm any more word on the different perlin noise output?
17:50 Krock diffrent?
17:50 hmmmm yeah, see last night's discussion
17:50 hmmmm i've been thinking it might be a good idea to write a test suite for the lua apis which can be run as part of an optional set of unit tests... any volunteers?
17:53 Krock *search it in the logs*
17:53 Krock ad. noise as textures?
17:53 Krock *ah
17:57 DogePony Noise textures == Audible textures :P
17:58 hmmmm krock, no.
17:59 hmmmm sometime in between my recent commit rampage i broke perlin noise
18:01 Krock ack
18:02 Krock indeed, it's not the same perlin as before. the map gets ugly borders
18:02 Krock haven't noticed that since I keep using dummy for testing reasons
18:03 hmmmm what mapgen are you using
18:03 Krock v6
18:04 Krock why the hell..
18:06 Krock hmmmm, are the old noise settings converted to new?
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18:18 Krock hmmmm, 141211 is bad and 141209 is the latest know good
18:18 Krock it happened in those 3 days
18:18 hmmmm are those dates?
18:18 Krock 2014-12-11 YYYY-MM-DD
18:19 hmmmm okay, that's not obvious though...
18:19 Krock with my CPU I can't help more than that
18:20 Krock tested 7 diffrent builds and the issue appeared late
18:20 * DogePony throws a non-existant bunch of money at Krock
18:20 * Krock catches the money and his hand turns non-existant
18:21 hmmmm well, I'm not finding the problem
18:23 jojoa1997 joined #minetest
18:23 hmmmm http://imgur.com/8x7sf8x,CJPIOsI,jGJgYaF
18:23 hmmmm this goes as far back as november 15th
18:24 hmmmm this is mapgen v6, with seed = 123456789
18:25 VanessaE I do spot a slight difference in the terrain.
18:25 VanessaE but it's subtle - one or two nodes.
18:26 Ponar_ joined #minetest
18:27 VanessaE probably just a rounding error or mud reflow
18:29 VanessaE bottom just right of center, between that small rectangular knoll with the two points on its sides and the larger hill to the left (with the default tree in the middle).  first and second are identical, third shows a slight difference there.
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18:30 Krock http://imgur.com/Su0APy5,PP4mr9d#0 141209 and 141211, the 2nd image is a bit turned to the right and from further away
18:30 hmmmm but i'm not seeing any massive difference like you claimed
18:30 Krock well, it can get massive when the terrain has a high difference
18:31 Krock it's just not an "eye candy"
18:32 hmmmm ...
18:32 hmmmm those pieces of terrain are each identical for mapgen purposes
18:32 hmmmm in fact, take a look at this:  http://i.imgur.com/f2Rw0o2.jpg
18:33 Krock I do not see any sharp cliffs there
18:33 hmmmm for the sheer amount of modification done to the mapgen over the course of like 2-3 years, i think that i have a pretty good track record
18:33 hmmmm only problem are the trees which somebody else messed up
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18:35 VanessaE what's wrong with them?
18:35 hmmmm they're different for every map because they're not using pseudorandom with a set blockseed
18:36 VanessaE I noticed they moved around between your screenshots.
18:36 VanessaE guess I'm used to that sorta behavior (e.g. moretrees)
18:37 hmmmm somewhere along the line it was determined that's acceptable because trees moving around are discrete structures and don't actually alter the terrain in between modifications
18:37 hmmmm i dunno about you guys, but my own testing tells me that mapgen v6, at least, has been pixel perfect since 0.4.4
18:37 FreeFull joined #minetest
18:42 Krock lua mapgens get very cute borders
18:42 Calinou I made a Carbone Debian/Ubuntu package!
18:42 Calinou :)
18:42 Calinou it works, but only with packaged Minetest
18:43 Krock looks like the noise is moved by by some nodes
18:47 Krock http://i.imgur.com/yTtCRnY.png
18:47 Krock That edge is from the old noise codes, the top and other side of this mountain is new
18:48 Jordach wait
18:48 Jordach did V6 just get something nice
18:48 Jordach pls be biome api
18:49 Calinou also made More Blocks/Map Tools packages
18:51 Calinou https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.ph​p?f=15&amp;t=9033&amp;p=164514#p164514
18:51 Calinou please test
18:52 VanessaE pine trees??
18:52 Calinou https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8234​2922/minetest/minetest-mod-maptools.deb
18:52 Calinou https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82342​922/minetest/minetest-mod-moreblocks.deb
18:52 Calinou also these
18:53 VanessaE Krock: what's the elevation of that ledge?
18:54 Krock VanessaE, the result of a build from a build of 9. and 11. December
18:54 VanessaE Krock: the Y height, elevation
18:54 VanessaE how high is that ledge?
18:54 Krock VanessaE, oh. 47m maybe. gonna check
18:54 VanessaE that's your answer
18:55 VanessaE hmmmm: weren't you and paramat going 'round and 'round over that problem?
18:55 Krock yeah. 47m
18:55 hmmmm seems to be an issue with watershed
18:55 hmmmm krock said mapgen v6 output was different, which is frankly a crock of shit
18:55 Jordach hmmmm, s/crock/krock/
18:56 VanessaE haha
18:56 Krock ehm. I've tested the difference from those both builds with the mapgen v6 and yappy. buth times it resulted in those edges
18:56 * Jordach has partially learned how to write in French due to time spent on MinetestForFun's server
18:56 DogePony edgy mapgen lol
18:57 Jordach edgin like a mad mapgen
18:57 Krock srsly. can nobody reproduce that bug?
19:00 Jordach i don't use MGV6 due to my love of the Biome API
19:01 Krock Jordach, you should notice that change in non-dummy worlds
19:02 DogePony Krock: with imagination I can :P
19:03 Krock Well then, it seems to be a compiler fail.. *deletes some noise-releated .obj files*
19:04 meldrian joined #minetest
19:05 * Krock found mapgen_math.obj and mapgen_indev.obj
19:05 eeeeeta joined #minetest
19:05 VanessaE Krock: it's for THAT reason that I have `make clean` in my build script :)
19:05 VanessaE never know what kind of cruft will be left over from a bad build
19:06 Krock VanessaE, I prefer to wait 10mins instead of 15
19:06 Krock lazyness ftw
19:06 VanessaE well you see what THAT got you ;)
19:06 Krock yes I saw THAT
19:06 DogePony Krock: you even saw it in 3d :P
19:07 Hobodium joined #minetest
19:14 Krock It wasn't a compiler fail
19:23 Jordach joined #minetest
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19:37 hisforeverkid what are the spheres with Sp mean ?
19:41 hisforeverkid Why am I now getting spawning eoors http://pastie.org/9778680   ?
19:41 hisforeverkid roorrs
19:42 hisforeverkid can't type sorry
19:43 Krock hisforeverkid, is that a special mapgen?
19:43 hisforeverkid I don't think so
19:44 hisforeverkid just put in the animal mod
19:45 DogePony it's just sapier's mod being spammy *sigh*
19:45 hisforeverkid how do I see a map in these worlds?
19:46 Krock compile gsmapper if you mean that
19:46 hisforeverkid ok ty
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20:11 exio4 kaeza, I would replace things like "o archivo corrupto" for "o corrupto" ( https://github.com/kaeza/minetest/commit/​48252fc71c8963e7e53753ecc698fec22df8d67c#​diff-7d2d1c27010905158eb155776e4803d9R170 )
20:13 Krock interesting, this texture difference of voxelands - the mainmenu looks perfect but the skin creator does not have realistic clothes monocolor
20:13 Krock *clothes, they're monocolor
20:13 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> Uberi/MineTest-WorldEdit: Fix bug with loading old .we file formats, thanks to @Sokomine https:/ http://git.io/qFI7Gg (2014-12-13T21:13:11+01:00)
20:13 exio4 I don't think I have anything else to say :P
20:14 Krock s/"https:/"//
20:15 sfan5 hm
20:15 sfan5 something went wrong with the commit id
20:15 Jordach joined #minetest
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20:19 _2_waters joined #minetest
20:19 Krock [git] SmallJoker -> SmallJoker/base_game: Revert mgv5/7 biomes https:/ http://git.io/noLiNk (2014-12-13T21:20:00+01:00)
20:20 Krock copypasta!
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20:23 DogePony Krock: the colors don't fit (:
20:24 DogePony *:(
20:24 Krock DogePony
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20:38 Krock ,00- ,14AnotherBrick ,00quit ,14(Read error: ,00Connection ,08reset by ,00peer)
20:38 Krock beautifl
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20:51 shibumi https://paste.archlinux.de/7aT/
20:51 shibumi there are textures missing or something
20:51 DogePony ,08K,08r,09o,06c,06k,02: ,06T,08h,06i,06s ,04i,11s ,04e,03v,13e,06n ,12m,02o,07r,08e ,08b,03e,04a,10u,03t,03i,09f,10u,07l
20:52 DogePony shibumi: everything's fine there
20:52 shibumi nope
20:52 kaeza "everything's fine"
20:52 shibumi I just see the background
20:52 kaeza >no terrain
20:53 kaeza 'different quotation marks'
20:53 DogePony kaeza: I'm blind today
20:53 sfan5 shibumi: graphics card?
20:53 shibumi sfan5: 00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]
20:55 sfan5 hm
20:55 Krock DogePony, see what my new program does: 00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, ,11Inc. ,00[AMD/ATI] Wrestler [Radeon ,13HD ,006310]
20:55 shibumi Krock: your programm is really buggy..
20:56 Krock shibumi, yeah. fixing th marked spaces
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20:57 Krock ,01<Krock>shibumi,,00 yeah. ,03fixing,00 ,03th,00 marked spaces
20:57 Jordach and Carbone wins the award of what the fuck dude https://cdn.mediacru.sh/6/6Tpa2Dhn1tfF.png
20:58 Krock Jordach, U no happy?
20:58 gravgun Indeed, there's much carbon in there
20:58 sfan5 shibumi: which video driver?
20:58 Krock coal 4 the win
20:59 shibumi sfan5: xf86-video-ati 1:7.5.0-1
21:00 sfan5 shibumi: the arch wiki says the open-src driver provides sufficient opengl for window managers, that probably means it doesn't work so well for gaming
21:01 Krock Yay,09!,00,09 ,00more tet!
21:01 Krock 3text
21:01 shibumi So I should install the proprietary one sfan5 ?
21:01 kaeza exio4, now? https://github.com/kaeza/minetest/commit/​b67e6dda6b01c29cd27638098481546e8bdb88cd
21:01 sfan5 I'd suggest you to try tha
21:01 exio4 the last kernel should be good enough
21:01 sfan5 t
21:01 exio4 kaeza, lemme check <3
21:02 kaeza exio4, also, -> #-es :3
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21:16 kaeza https://forum.minetest.net/viewto​pic.php?f=17&amp;t=10745#p164529
21:22 sdzen joined #minetest
21:22 sdzen hello there people
21:23 Krock sdzen, hi
21:24 sdzen its been awhile
21:24 sdzen feels like a year
21:25 sdzen or 0.4.7
21:25 sdzen I cant recall
21:26 Krock 0.4.7 is from 2013, yes
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21:29 sdzen okay so a year
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22:11 Jordach dem realtime physics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o0Nuq71gI4
22:17 gravgun Jordach: we're only getting closer and closer to simulating the Matrix ;)
22:20 Jordach gimme an oculus and ill be happy
22:24 kaeza we're closer to simulating the matrix [in graphics]
22:24 kaeza but what about *actual* gameplay? :(
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22:25 Jordach kaeza, Minetest like AI
22:35 exio4 kaeza, suddenly: Skynet
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