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IRC log for #minetest, 2014-07-15

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00:46 us`0gb So I hear LevelDB is having race condition issues.
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03:00 ezraanderson anybody familiar with the android build
03:00 ezraanderson stuck on grey screen with this error
03:01 ezraanderson client isnn't active yet
03:01 ezraanderson no usefull logs in logcat
03:02 ezraanderson ERROR[ServerThread]: Got packet command: 60 for peer id 2 but client isn't active yet. Dropping packet
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03:10 ezraanderson it happens on release & debug builds
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05:52 CatInTheHat AnotherBrick are you afk?
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06:24 MinetestBot LemonLake: 07-15 03:24 UTC <Jordach> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1P--nTP-u0
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07:14 sfan5 meow
07:14 sfan5 hi everyone
07:14 RealBadAngel hi
07:15 RealBadAngel sfan5, wanna test some code that should speed up game a bit?
07:15 * sfan5 nods
07:15 RealBadAngel take a look: https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/com​mit/991fee16f27959acd7851693f7e75e6f6d3ce46b
07:16 RealBadAngel im compiling now for the last time to check if everythin is ok
07:18 * sfan5 wgets patch
07:18 sfan5 warning: 6 lines add whitespace errors.
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07:18 RealBadAngel ouch, i thought i found them all already
07:19 sfan5 RealBadAngel: http://sprunge.us/KYdi
07:19 RealBadAngel thx, will fix it
07:22 sfan5 RealBadAngel: compiles.
07:27 sfan5 RealBadAngel: can't detect any problems
07:28 RealBadAngel good. what about fps?
07:29 sfan5 I always have 60 fps anyway
07:30 RealBadAngel i dont have such fast pc, so im below 60
07:31 RealBadAngel thats why im coding such fixes :)
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08:15 RealBadAngel sfan5, ive changed a bit code that calculates contrast for faces shading, does it feel the same as before for you?
08:15 sfan5 yes
08:16 RealBadAngel ok
08:16 RealBadAngel im working also on cracks, but thats tough one
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08:31 jp__ Hi.
08:32 sfan5 Hi.
08:32 jp__ sfan5 : the MTS filter that you have post just now on forum have been created these last days or you already gave it to me ?
08:33 sfan5 should be the one you already ha
08:33 sfan5 ve
08:33 jp__ Ok.
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08:39 jp__ sfan5 : it should avoid the entire closure of MCEdit when stopping an active filter process.
08:39 sfan5 you can't abort it (unfortanely)
08:40 jp__ :/
08:41 Calinou “We would like you to be the first to know of an exciting update to Ohloh.net. This week, Ohloh will be changing its name to the Black Duck Open Hub. ”
08:41 Calinou yeah… Ohloh sounded too much like “Oh lol”
08:41 Calinou but it's not like we can't joke on the new name
08:43 VanessaE Calinou: got that, too
08:43 VanessaE a name change is "exciting"?
08:45 Calinou to marketers, it is
08:46 VanessaE pfft
08:46 Calinou we should just say any change in Minetest also is, to have more players
08:46 Calinou “Added exciting third person; added exciting desert cobblestone”
08:47 Calinou :o Freeminer has mgv5
08:47 Calinou and minimap
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08:52 * sfan5 meows at Calinou
08:52 * Krock meows at Calinou
08:56 Calinou yet another “raspi is fast” person
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09:00 Calinou Freeminer's farmesh is strange at the beginning, but actually works quite well
09:00 AMMOnym Hi there. On minetest forum I saw one video, where someone spawned a lot of BOTs. I really dont know name of this video but somebody maybe know it. Is here any way how can I spawn these bots too ? Thanks for answer :)
09:01 sfan5 https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/i​cmp_redirect_attacks_in_the_wild
09:01 sfan5 someobody must be joking
09:01 sfan5 198.168.103.11 (the customer's IP address, changed to protect their identity)
09:01 sfan5 >private IP
09:01 sfan5 >protect identity
09:02 Calinou bots?
09:02 Calinou you mean NPCs?
09:03 AMMOnym In this video somebody spawn a lot of bots which make him a hole in the ground( They were 2D)
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09:09 Krock so. updated the driver
09:10 AMMOnym Finnaly i got it :D I looked for this one :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hny6ovvGR3Y
09:13 sfan5 !title
09:13 MinetestBot sfan5: Freeminer server, 100 bots online. - YouTube
09:14 Krock ..
09:16 Krock yay! I can watch YT videos without a browser freeze!
09:26 Calinou https://cdn.mediacru.sh/5MM6EBPa9SIy.jpg
09:26 Calinou v5 cave
09:27 Calinou mgv5 is currently only in freeminer, mapgen selection is buggy; edit the world files to change mapgen after creating an indev world.
09:27 Calinou however, there will be no trees
09:27 Krock no trees... that's not good
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09:31 * Krock haz OpenGL 2.1.2 nao
09:33 * Krock notices fps drop when chunks get drawn
09:33 * sfan5 meows at Krock
09:33 * Krock meows at sfan5
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10:13 VanessaE sfan5: you forgot some phrase with "much" in it
10:13 sfan5 :o
10:17 Matrixiumn hello
10:17 Matrixiumn I'm wondering if PuTTY tunneling with minetest should "just work"
10:17 Matrixiumn I'm trying to connect to a server over putty (using ssh tunneling) it doesn't work to work...
10:18 Matrixiumn it gets stuck on
10:18 sfan5 you can't tunnel UDP over HTTP proxies
10:18 Matrixiumn "connecing to server"
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10:18 Matrixiumn *blink*
10:18 Matrixiumn oh.
10:18 sfan5 you need some other tunnel that can transport UDP
10:18 Matrixiumn awww
10:18 Matrixiumn sfan5: Do you know of any?
10:19 sfan5 http://www.qcnetwork.com/vince/do​c/divers/udp_over_ssh_tunnel.html
10:19 sfan5 that might work
10:20 sfan5 Matrixiumn: better explanation maybe csuperuser.com/questions/53103/udp​-traffic-through-ssh-tunnel/53109#53109
10:20 sfan5 csuperuser.com/questions/53103/udp​-traffic-through-ssh-tunnel/53109#53109 *
10:20 sfan5 ..
10:21 sfan5 http://superuser.com/questions/53103/udp​-traffic-through-ssh-tunnel/53109#53109
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10:21 sfan5 that ine
10:21 sfan5 one*
10:21 sfan5 Matrixiumn: or just create a VPN
10:22 Matrixiumn sfan5: i'm using windows :S
10:22 Matrixiumn (because school)
10:22 sfan5 o, right
10:22 sfan5 a patched minetest client would be the only option then
10:23 Matrixiumn aw
10:23 Matrixiumn hm, one sec
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10:55 PenguinDad meow https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8254078976/h756CA980/
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11:40 * Jordach thanks that his system finally fucked up
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11:51 Jordach kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ sudo mount -t ntfs-3g -o remove_hiberfile /dev/sda2 /media/B8E5A3B8E55FFC -- The file system wasn't safely closed on Windows. Fixing.
11:51 Jordach PHEW
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11:53 VanessaE > Jordach
11:53 VanessaE > using Linux
11:53 VanessaE universe explodes
11:54 VanessaE now all we gotta do is get kaeza over to Linux :)
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12:09 sapier calinou what's the mapgen selector issue you've been taking about?
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12:30 sfan5 VanessaE: isn't kaeza already using linux?
12:39 LazyJ My turn at VanessaE... I'm having trouble connecting to InchraNet. Is it still:  192.99.11.10/6667 ?
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13:02 ecutruin So, anyone happen to know what kind of work is being done on the dev side of MT to allow more client-side effects?  Such as advanced particle effects and dynamic blocks and such? Just curious if its on the list to do eventually here, that kind of thing?
13:03 PenguinDad ecutruin: meshnodes are coming soon ©®™
13:04 ecutruin Well that doesn't help particles. xD
13:04 PenguinDad ecutruin: what do you mean with advanced?
13:05 ecutruin Such as an actual particle system, where you can control particles from point A to B.. and change those points around at runtime..
13:05 ecutruin Used for things like MC's fishing line, ThaumCraft's special effects, potion effects, etc.
13:06 sfan5 ecutruin: the finishing line is just a 2d line drawn after rendering
13:06 sfan5 at least in MC
13:07 ecutruin Ah.. might be something else I'm thinking of.. or another line thing from a mod.. I just got off work and am a bit groggy.. but you get the idea. XD
13:08 ecutruin I'm curious because I know Irrlicht has a particle engine, but it doesn't seem to be used by MT at all... and entity particles is pretty bad to use regularly.
13:11 ecutruin Mostly though, I just am curious about less limitations. ^-^   I'm currently trying to decide whether I want to use MT for a game concept I have or just use another engine like Unity3D.
13:11 VanessaE LazyJ: it is, yes.
13:11 VanessaE sfan5: he uses windows, so I thought.
13:13 VanessaE ecutruin: regarding particles, ask jin_xi
13:13 VanessaE he's made some progress in getting minetest to use *proper* irrlicht particles, rather than client-side entities.
13:13 ecutruin Ah.
13:14 VanessaE this, for example:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WnmQYLJzlE
13:14 ecutruin What about client-side custom rendering?
13:14 VanessaE idk about that, but if it can be done in a shader, that's RealBadAngel's department
13:14 VanessaE (extra, custom rendering that is)
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13:16 ecutruin Well, I'm just wanting full control over a node.. aka.. I want to be able to say create a stick model and a stone model, and be able to place them in the same block as a node that has physics and everything like any other node.. or be able to say build with 1/8th blocks or somesuch.
13:16 VanessaE oh, meta_set_nodedef.
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13:17 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1118
13:17 VanessaE that would enable what you want, in addition to node meshes
13:17 sapier ecutruin: that's most likely not gonna happen ever
13:17 sapier nodes are our minimal map elements you'll never be able to place multiple ones at same coordinte
13:18 sapier +a
13:18 VanessaE sapier: but you can fake it with meta_set_nodedef or node meshes.
13:18 VanessaE sapier: see for example how signs_lib fakes two nodes in one place:  a sign on a fencepost.
13:18 sapier I don't tell there might not be creative ways abusing features to make it look like
13:18 VanessaE it's not perfect, but it looks good enough.
13:18 ecutruin sapier, the same is true of minecraft and blocks, but yet.. if you've seen Redpower or Forge Multipart.. they can still do it.
13:19 sapier I don't know those but I'd guess they're binary mods to minecraft?
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13:20 ecutruin Seems like meta_set_nodedef would work with node meshes, but it seems setting nodes right now is VERY slow (up to 2 seconds? >.<) and I haven't seen word on node meshes lately.
13:21 sapier depends on amount of mods you've got installed, but true setting nodes is a heavy operation
13:21 ecutruin sapier, they are modes for MC that both add systems of having multiple 'blocks' in one block, by extending the block system to add additional sub features as such.. aka you could have two torches in the same block.
13:21 ecutruin modes for MC - mods for MC. >.<
13:22 sapier well having subnodes has been discussed multiple times with result of noone really being willing to spend the expected amount of work.
13:23 sapier are you sure you need nodes and can't use entities?
13:23 ecutruin Have you seen how well entities work on MT? -.-
13:24 sapier have you written a bug report about any real issue?
13:24 ecutruin And.. why would you want to use entities for something that you expect to be essentially a block?  Aka.. it won't move on its own.. won't need to update until something interacts with it..
13:24 sapier sorry but I hear ppl complaining about entities in general but almost noone seems to have problems
13:25 ecutruin Especially when you think of stuff like decoration.. such as 1/8 blocks being used to make a staircase.
13:25 sapier that scenario is obviously not something for entities ... still don't expect anyone to implement subnodes anytime soon. But you're free to implement it
13:26 sapier basic problem most likely is mapsize
13:26 ecutruin I have issues with entities that are founded in actual experience.  The main two are that they are not accurately predictable by the client, meaning if you do move them.. you will likely get a glitchy result on the client if there is any lag between the client and server.. and two.. the animation engine does not allow for non-looping animation.
13:26 sapier lol
13:26 sapier wash me but don't get me wet
13:27 ecutruin eh?
13:27 sapier sorry that's a inherent property non deterministic things are non deterministic by definition
13:27 sapier you can't expect client to predict random events
13:27 ecutruin Um.. they don't need to be random..
13:28 sapier if your mod decides to move something that is at least pseudorandom
13:29 sapier and the non looping animation ... true ... why didn't you write s issue by now?
13:29 ecutruin Aka.. you could have the server send something like "entity.move( toLocation, overTime )" and wala, now you can predict where the entity should be reasonably accurately, without as many issues.
13:30 sapier core developers don't have /dev/glasssphere to know what you want without being told
13:30 sapier true but wouln't actually fix your issue
13:30 ecutruin I've done programming for over 20 years.  I may not have extensive experience as most of my programming was hobby, but I know enough to understand you can write reasonably accurate entity systems.  Most MMOs do it afterall.. and hell, MC doesn't generally have as many issues as MT seems to.
13:31 sapier if you know how to do it you're free to join us and fix it ... we've got limited resources so some things keep unfixed because of noone having time to do it ;-)
13:33 sapier and btw what's your moveto supposed to do? pathfinding?
13:33 ecutruin sapier, I understand that.. but C++ is not a language I've worked with a ton (no real interest), so my ability to support is minimal.  Hense, me asking if such things are being worked on.
13:34 sapier ok no problem but still some of your suggestions aren't big changes if you'd write a feature request for them they might be implemented in reasonable time
13:35 sapier just complaining about things being bad doesn't help anyone, you wont get your features any time sooner and noones mood s gonna improve ;-)
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13:35 ecutruin sapier, it doesn't need to do actual pathfinding (though doing so could be good), but even simply just go directly towards the position over that time and apply physics to stop it if it hits something.
13:35 sapier that's already done
13:36 PenguinDad ecutruin: http://cdn.acidcow.com/pics/​20140715/acid_picdump_38.jpg
13:36 ecutruin sapier, no its not from what I understand.. you can apply impulse to push something in a direciton, but that is not remotely the same.
13:37 sapier it is
13:38 ecutruin PenguinDad, wow.. just wow.. I ask if something is being worked on.. and I get attacked for complaining.  I am not a child guys, I fully understand MT has limited developers with limited time.  I wasn't asking to make it and make it now.  I was asking if it was being worked on.
13:38 sapier client calculates movement from velocity applied to a entity
13:38 ecutruin sapier, no.. its not the same.. not even close.
13:38 sapier ok so you want move to that position not move there
13:39 ecutruin "Go in direction X forever" is not the same as "Go in direction X over Y period of time"... the second is very important for accurately stopping things on the client where you want them stopped.  V's pipes are a great example of why this is needed.
13:42 VanessaE s/pipes/tubes/
13:42 sapier ok you see there are various ways to implement something so write a feature request as precise as possible
13:43 ecutruin VanessaE, didn't you tell me before, you've already requested such a feature?
13:43 VanessaE yep
13:43 sapier I'm not sure if you really would get that happy with it as it sill may not reach that position, e.g. if the target isn't actially loaded
13:44 VanessaE sapier: the point is to keep entities from *overshooting*
13:44 sapier and no we won't forceload targets
13:44 ecutruin sapier, that's fine.. because the client and server will both reach that situation.. or the server will send a new update of the entity and the client will adapt and use that instead.
13:44 VanessaE no one cares if an entity never gets to a certain spot, but it looks like total ass if an entity goes past a corner and leaves a tube, visually, because the API has no way to prevent it
13:44 sapier no they wont
13:45 sapier because client and server block loading isn't in sync
13:46 sapier but I have to leave now, please write your request as precise as possible. I beleive what you actually want is c++ mobs which wont happen that soon
13:46 ecutruin sapier.. if the server says to send the entity to X/Y/Z.. it'll goto X/Y/Z.. the area doesn't need to be loaded for the entity to go there.. it'll just go that way and disappear when it runs out of distance as it logically would.. the server is what cares about the actual position.
13:46 VanessaE sapier: nope.avi
13:47 ecutruin VanessaE, I really don't think sapier gets it. >.<
13:47 VanessaE what he wants is "entity.move(time=5, distance=10, vector={vec})"  where time and distance are in seconds and meters
13:47 ecutruin And since you've already requested such.. is it worth it for me to put another request in?
13:47 sapier I don't deny this sounds interesting but prior implementation we need to check it for sideeffects, without a issue there's no location for this discussion
13:48 VanessaE a simple API function to tell the CLIENT to move the entity over the course of TIME seconds, by DISTANCE nodes in the direction expressed by VECTOR.
13:48 VanessaE well of course I'm oversimplifying that example call.
13:48 VanessaE I didn't put in there the name of the entity for example
13:48 VanessaE and the name of the call is just an example
13:48 VanessaE but you get the point
13:49 proller joined #minetest
13:49 VanessaE there needs to be a way to tell the CLIENT (not the damn server!) that an entity MUST ABSOLUTELY STOP HERE! and just where "HERE" is, in the form of a distance and vector, and how long it should take to get there.
13:49 Eater4 joined #minetest
13:50 VanessaE if the entity's movement timer expires and the server hasn't sent a new movement command of some kind, the entity stops cold, period.
13:50 VanessaE end of story.
13:50 VanessaE and it doesn't take a client-side mod to do that
13:51 VanessaE all it needs is for the server to tell the fucking client "hey, you know that entity I told you to create earlier?  move it by this vector and speed, and stop it after X seconds."
13:51 VanessaE that's all
13:51 VanessaE it doesn't have to be over-engineered.
13:51 * ecutruin agrees.
13:52 ecutruin Same with non-looping animation.. I was totally stupified as to why they don't exist.
13:53 VanessaE brb
13:53 ecutruin We added over 700 frames to the chest, VanessaE, but couldn't get it to totally stop from looping.
13:53 ecutruin I dunno.. we'd probably need like 3k bloat frames to get it to work.. which seems very silly.
13:54 proller joined #minetest
13:55 Jordach joined #minetest
13:58 VanessaE you can't just set the amount of time per frame?
14:00 VanessaE pretty sad if you can't - even animated gif images could do that :-/
14:01 Jordach woot
14:02 enricom joined #minetest
14:02 Jordach a clean reinstall of windows completed
14:02 ecutruin VanessaE, not that I could see.. Jordach and I didn't have any luck with that anyways.
14:02 Jordach VanessaE: yep
14:02 VanessaE that sucks :-/
14:02 Jordach VanessaE, ik
14:03 Jordach brb - must reboot for catalyst
14:03 ecutruin So.. it always will loop.. unless you dump 3000 extra frames in to trick it.. but that bloats the file size..
14:03 ecutruin So..
14:03 VanessaE bloats it by how much?
14:03 VanessaE (assuming you're not using a .x file)
14:03 ecutruin I think 700 bloated it a bit.
14:04 ecutruin No.. not a .x, that'd be crazy bloat.
14:04 VanessaE heh
14:05 ecutruin But it event bloated the b3d by a few kb I believe.. and while that isn't much.. doing that for every animation we want to be non-looping and a probably needing double the frames we're using now to completely stop it.. is kinda crazy.
14:05 VanessaE eh, a few kb ain't that bad
14:05 VanessaE that's one well-designed texture file
14:05 Jordach joined #minetest
14:06 VanessaE can't make the actual animation two frames with interpolation?
14:06 VanessaE well, a few frames anyway?
14:06 ecutruin VanessaE, that's what we did for keeping it open/shut.. but the server doesn't trigger the change in animation fast enough for it to not loop.
14:06 Jordach VanessaE, interpol is handeled by the modeller
14:06 hmmmm joined #minetest
14:07 VanessaE Jordach: fek.
14:09 * Jordach feels the system's speed again
14:09 ecutruin Yeah, VanessaE, a few kb isn't a lot of bloat.. but imagine if we used say 50 different models, all with say 5 animations that need to be non-looping?
14:10 VanessaE yeah.
14:10 Jordach all of which are entities :3
14:10 Jordach hm
14:10 ecutruin Nuff to say, there are issues.
14:10 Jordach i wonder if i stick a sack of my chests into a 16^3 area, and then wonder if the engine removes them due to "suspiciously large amount of objects at {x,y,z}"
14:11 ecutruin Try it.
14:11 Jordach later
14:11 Jordach just reinstalled most of my stuff
14:11 ecutruin Hehe.
14:11 VanessaE I wish I could figure out what's causing that huge numbers of entities issue on my Creative server :-/
14:12 VanessaE not sure if it's still a problem but it was sure out of control before :-/
14:12 * VanessaE checks logs...
14:12 PenguinDad sighs_lib or pipeworks maybe
14:13 PenguinDad s/sighs/signs/
14:13 Megaf joined #minetest
14:13 VanessaE nope, it ain't the signs, could be pipeworks but damned if I know
14:18 Jordach don't signs use a single entity ?
14:19 kaeza joined #minetest
14:23 Jordach ello kaeza
14:23 kaeza mornings
14:24 LazyJ kaeza! We where just talking about you. >:D
14:25 LazyJ The GUI you added to Xban2 is a nice tool.
14:25 * Jordach had managed to hit the windows 8 self destruct button without realising
14:25 LazyJ Now for more complicated feature request.
14:27 LazyJ Combining your wiki mod with Xban2 so admins can write notes about the players that were temp banned for other admins to read to better decide if the next banning should be permanent.
14:28 kaeza interesting idea
14:29 LemonLake joined #minetest
14:29 LazyJ Xban2 GUI -> epicloudmouth -> results: temp ban...  admin note: Was warned to stop using foul language. Second offence.
14:30 kaeza well, for that case there's the `reason` field
14:30 LazyJ The "reason" only shows up in the logs.
14:31 LazyJ Our moderators and admins could really use the info while ingame. There are times when the chaos needs several quick decisions.
14:32 Jordach pfft
14:32 Jordach have to re-download some stuff
14:32 LazyJ Between babysitting newbies, keeping an eye on a couple spats, and dealing with troublemakers... less time spent grepping in a terminal the better.
14:32 Jordach hey LemonLake
14:33 * Jordach was not happy about having to nuke his install again
14:34 * LazyJ hands Jordach a sledgehammer.
14:34 Matrixiumn ah dang
14:35 nyuszika7h okay seriously who put an apk in a zip
14:35 nyuszika7h who do I kill
14:35 Matrixiumn how would I make cmake look for libs under /usr/lib*64*
14:35 Matrixiumn dat nyuszika7h
14:35 Matrixiumn not /usr/lib
14:35 Jordach nyuszika7h, this isn't the empire channel, no rage here
14:35 Matrixiumn Jordach: pls
14:35 nyuszika7h pls
14:35 nyuszika7h I'm not raging
14:35 * Matrixiumn plses jordach
14:36 * Jordach sighs https://cdn.mediacru.sh/BXnjjNWHs2x9.png
14:36 Matrixiumn Jordach: ???
14:37 Jordach Matrixiumn, last night i managed to accidentially nuke the system
14:37 Matrixiumn ouch
14:37 Jordach (well, the shutdown went wrong)
14:37 Matrixiumn how, may I ask?
14:37 Matrixiumn oh
14:39 LazyJ kaeza:  "<klappspaten> Well, the reason shows up in the gui too, but I'd like to have a second entry which is not shown to the banned player"
14:39 asl joined #minetest
14:39 Matrixiumn aha
14:39 Matrixiumn set(libdir "/usr/lib64)
14:39 Matrixiumn CMake <3
14:41 Jordach while dropbox re-syncs
14:43 kaeza LazyJ, I'll come up with something later
14:43 Hirato_ joined #minetest
14:43 LazyJ Thanks, kaeza ;)
14:44 kaeza P.S: wiki mod is not popular because the textbox crashes the client sometimes; bug in cguittfont or something
14:44 kaeza even though LuaCs/MCs also use it ;_;
14:44 Jordach P.P.S: never had a crash with the wiki mod locally, only the chatbox ever made me crash
14:45 kaeza Jordach, try clicking outside of the text and drag
14:45 Jordach kaeza, i mean the hit enter to crash in a text submit box
14:46 kaeza I mean the textarea[] element
14:46 Jordach ae
14:46 Jordach aye
14:48 kaeza in other news, some Mr. Ahmed Hassan, a banker, has 11 million for me \o/
14:48 Jordach lel
14:49 Jordach there, system reconstructed to Pre OS failure
14:49 Jordach in less than 2 hours :P
14:49 Jordach kaeza, https://cdn.mediacru.sh/PpT3q8xe8W32.png (NSFW)
14:50 kaeza lul
14:51 jvalleroy joined #minetest
14:51 Jordach for once ever my dropbox is upto date
14:53 domtron joined #minetest
15:10 Exio4 joined #minetest
15:11 Exio4 hihi~
15:13 blaise herro
15:13 blaise hey so like..
15:13 blaise what's up with all the crazy lag from mobf ?
15:15 thk joined #minetest
15:20 domtron_ joined #minetest
15:21 * PenguinDad feels like raging about fancy graphics
15:34 FreeFull Jordach: Clearly your penïs is too ŝmall
15:35 FreeFull kaeza: 11 million what? Or the number itself?
15:40 GrimKriegor joined #minetest
15:41 arsdragonfly joined #minetest
15:57 Eater4 VanessaE?
15:59 FreeFull joined #minetest
16:02 sapier vanessaE to me what you suggest already sounds overengenered especially as it conflicts to our current way of doing things
16:04 * ecutruin facepalms.
16:05 ecutruin sapier, I'm curious...how long have you programmed?
16:05 sapier long enough to know adding a entirely different movement mechanisms causes strange effects on mixing up those different ways
16:05 ecutruin I specifically asked how long.
16:06 hmmmm 400 years
16:06 hmmmm what does it matter?
16:06 sapier I know ppl programming for 40 years not capable of doing simple things and ppl programming 5 beeing way more experienced so what's relevance
16:06 ecutruin Because he's wrong.. and his line of thinking makes me believe its due to a lack of experience.
16:07 hmmmm lol
16:07 ecutruin or she's wrong, I guess.. I'm not sure.
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16:07 hmmmm ecuturin, whose line of thinking?
16:07 sapier e.g. if you add that moveto in x seconds ... what how is it supposed to behave if someone sets an acceleration prior those x seconds have elapsed?
16:07 ecutruin sapier's.
16:07 hmmmm erhm
16:07 hmmmm sapier knows what he's talking about
16:07 hmmmm ecutruin, I'm questioning your competence now
16:07 hmmmm you seem like an idiot
16:07 ecutruin sapier.. it'd either override or add.. either works really and either sitll allows for predictability.
16:08 ecutruin still*
16:08 sapier I don't say there's no way of implementing it, it's just not something to do without thinking ... we have various examples of incomplete things the one implementing never dared to complete once it's been added
16:09 Calinou joined #minetest
16:09 ecutruin hmmmm, I spent three years in college for computer programming with a 4.0 GPA.  I also have been working with computers and programming as a hobby for over 20 years.  So no, I'm pretty sure I have a decent idea what I'm talking about.   I specialize as my hobby in system design concepts themselves.
16:09 Calinou hi
16:09 ecutruin Heyo Calinou.
16:09 sapier how is acceleration supposed to add to a position? sorry that doesn't make sense, the first thing I'd think about would be send a position update AND the acceleration in same command ...
16:09 hmmmm ecutruin:  I'm pretty sure you're an incomptent fool though, because you appeal to your grades in college rather than point out why something that sapier is saying is supposedly wrong
16:09 Calinou oh, server-side movement fanatic again
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16:10 hmmmm ecutruin:  I didn't know you for all but 5 seconds, but you lost my respect totally at this point
16:10 Jordach hmmmm, he's the guy who works with almost all MC modders
16:10 Jordach *don't* piss him off
16:10 ecutruin sapier, it could easily increase/decrease the speed at which the object moves towards the position.. However, a better option would indeed be to just have the second movement effect overrule the first.
16:10 sapier please calm down hmmmm
16:10 hmmmm sorry.  I have a low tolerance for BS lately
16:11 Jordach hmmmm, don't we all?
16:11 Calinou about how server-side movement is done in most games: controls are sent, server simulates movement, client predicts movement and has error correction
16:11 sapier acceleration is a 3d value ecutruin so it depends on what you set if that entitiy will reach the position at all
16:11 Calinou the quality of the prediction can vary from “very good” to “total crap”
16:12 hmmmm ecutruin:  So if you're so smart and great with programming and sapier is "wrong", why don't you put your money where your mouth is and code it?
16:13 sapier a possible option having less sideeffects could be adding some sort of "reset time" e.g. "appy acceleration/velocity for X seconds"
16:13 ecutruin sapier, if it reaches the position or not doesn't actually matter.. what matters is that you can predict what will happen with a reasonable amount of certainty.. if you send something towards a position and then try to push it in the opposite direction, you know the time will run out before it reaches its goal.. and the client will achieve the estimated result you were looking for either way.
16:14 ecutruin hmmmm, cause I don't want to take the time to re-learn C++?  I haven't used C++ since college, and even then it was taught mostly only in data structures class.
16:14 UukGoblin joined #minetest
16:14 ecutruin Generally we used C# or Java in college.
16:14 PilzAdam joined #minetest
16:15 UukGoblin hi :-)
16:15 UukGoblin where can I get OpenAL32.dll from? The game doesn't start without it on Windows :-/
16:15 ecutruin I've also not really done much development in the past 4 years or so beyond toying with things, mostly focusing on art now days.
16:16 sapier I was talking about VanessaE's suggestion to use a position based mechanism and if it's position based how is it supposed to not matter if it reaches that position ... you can't move something towards a position within x seconds and accelerate it (x,y,z) same time ... that's like moving to north and south same time
16:16 Calinou <ecutruin> Generally we used C# or Java in college.
16:16 * Calinou gives ecutruin a shield
16:16 ecutruin So there would be a re-learning period to just sit down to seriously code.  Which, doing so to fix this issue doesn't seem to be the best use of my time right now.  Not that MT isn't a really interesting project and community, just that I have quite limited time lately.
16:17 hmmmm sapier:  perhaps VanessaE is looking for you to calculate the needed acceleration in order to complete the move in that period of time
16:17 sapier not counting special cases where x,y,z and position is identical
16:18 Calinou UukGoblin, are you using a 32 bit or 64 bit build?
16:18 ecutruin Calinou, its honestly true.  At least in this area (and elsewhere as well), Java, C#, Python, etc.. tend to be use more prominently than C++/C/ASM.
16:18 sapier well for what I know vanessaE her suggestion was from high altitude view position
16:18 sapier that sounds negative ... isn't meant that way
16:18 hmmmm ecutruin:  you sound like somebody who took a couple of college courses on programming and you think you're instantly qualified to do anything at all
16:18 Calinou what did you do then, hmmmm?
16:18 hmmmm ecutruin:  you know nothing.  you are incompetent.
16:19 sapier something I think about that would (hopfully) not cause major sideefects would be adding a parameter to setvelocity and setacceleration telling server for how long this is to be applied
16:19 hmmmm hmm
16:19 hmmmm should I be reading the backlog on this?
16:19 ecutruin sapier, position was my suggestion actually.  VanessaE's suggestion was actually an improvement on my own (but both would work).  She suggested to move the entity a distance, over a set amount of time, at a set vector.. which would work much better then a straight position.
16:20 sapier short story ecutruin claimed enties are broken I suggeste he should write issues for what is broken and one of the features he suggested is "moveto"
16:20 hmmmm that's a feature addition, not a bugfix
16:21 ecutruin hmmmm, how much have you actually studied programming / game design, curiously?
16:21 sapier github issues are both
16:21 hmmmm ecutruin:  I probably did more development in the past month than you have in your entire lifetime
16:21 UukGoblin Calinou, 64bit. Found an openal installer at openal.org.
16:22 Calinou “coming (back) soon.” → the site has been like that since ~1 year at least
16:22 hmmmm ecutruin:  bottom line is:  shut up and start coding.
16:22 ecutruin hmmmm, and honestly.. it is both a bug fix and a feature addition.. because the way things work now, there is no means in which to acturately move entities so that they are predicted on the client with any kind of accuracy, and that is a bug.
16:22 UukGoblin Calinou, yeaeh ;-)
16:22 ecutruin hmmmm, you're really hostile.
16:22 sapier guy competing about "who has biggest dick" wont get us any more near to a good solution ;-)
16:22 sapier guys
16:24 hmmmm movement isn't typically calculated on the server and merely predicted on the client side, it's performed on the client side completely and updated positions are reported to the server
16:24 sapier ecutruin: how many hours have passed since I requested you to write an issue? ... you may not wanna learn c++ but not writing the issues tells more like you're not interested to improve minetest but only wanna make trouble
16:24 hmmmm but alas this is sensitive to latency
16:24 ecutruin sapier, I'm not trying to compete.. more just get a grasp of hmmmm's knowledge as he's coming off very hostile over what seems to be nothing but me explaining things.  Generally that is only done when someone doesn't actually understand the situation.
16:24 ecutruin In contrast (as an example), despite me outright saying you were incorrect, sapier, you did not get hostile at all, and instead tried to ask questions to clearify what I meant.
16:25 ecutruin sapier, VanessaE already wrote an issue on this exact thing.. and nothing was done.
16:25 hmmmm ecutruin:  by explaining things you mean telling us about how sapier is wrong and an idiot, not making an issue, and then telling us about your 4.0 GPA in school
16:25 hmmmm ecutruin:  perhaps you should have linked to the bugtracker issue in question
16:25 sapier vanessae wrote an issue about animation looping?
16:26 ecutruin hmmmm, read back, I don't believe I ever said sapier is an idiot.  If anyone would be, it would be yourself for jumping to conclusions and attacking me.  I said sapier was wrong, and I stand by that.
16:26 hmmmm I think this is a difficult problem any way you look at it
16:26 sapier usually I leave a discussion once ppl start using words like that
16:26 hmmmm a combination between position reporting and the current system would work best, IMO
16:27 sapier what do you mean with "position reporting" hmmmm?
16:27 ecutruin sapier, no.  I will have to write an issue on that myself or see if Jordach wishes to as he has the actual test of it on his server test.  VanessaE wrote an issue (or so she told me) on the entity movement.
16:27 hmmmm the velocity/acceleration commands would be broadcasted to other players in the vincinity for interpolation, but the absolute position should be sent by the client in regular intervals for the server to make periodic corrections
16:27 PilzAdam hmmmm, ecutruin, maybe both of you should calm down a bit?
16:27 hmmmm that way you have accuracy and smoothness
16:28 ecutruin PilzAdam, I'm quite calm, honestly.
16:28 * VanessaE wanders back in
16:28 VanessaE hmmmm: please stop being hostile, really
16:28 hmmmm look at what you've done vanessa
16:28 hmmmm dammit
16:29 VanessaE what I've done/
16:29 VanessaE ?
16:29 VanessaE um
16:29 hmmmm lol
16:29 hmmmm did you make an issue on this before?
16:29 VanessaE ok, we need to backtrack here a little
16:30 ecutruin hmmmm, as I mentioned a "move over time" command is what is needed to do accurate prediction.. the client needs to have an idea how long it needs to move.  How that is implemented could be done in various ways.  If you want it to be addative with acceleration, you could do that.. or you could have acceleration commands subvert it and override it completely.  Either option you choose is acceptable though, as both will yield predictable resu
16:30 pygmee joined #minetest
16:31 VanessaE I don't remember if I made a github issue for this or not, but what ecutruin is trying to say, which you and sapier are failing to grasp, is you have GOT to do something about what lag looks like from the CLIENT side.  TO HELL with the server. OK?  That means telling the client "hey, you know that entity I told you to create?  move it X meters in {vector} direction, and do it in Y seconds.  Whether I get back to you before that
16:31 VanessaE timer elapses, stop moving the entity after Y seconds."
16:31 hmmmm how often is TOCLIENT_MOVEMENT sent??
16:31 sapier best match I find is https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1072 but that's not exactly this issue too
16:31 VanessaE hmmmm: server step, I believe, which is useless if the server lags or the network has some interruption.
16:31 hmmmm VanessaE:  that bit of logic can be implemented in Lua, it's a simple math calculation
16:32 VanessaE hmmmm: it cannot be implemented in Lua.
16:32 Vazon joined #minetest
16:32 hmmmm I mean the acceleration vectors necessary to complete the move in a deterministic amount of time
16:32 VanessaE hmmmm: there is no way for the client to stop the entity from moving once it has been set in motion.
16:32 hmmmm right and that's a problem
16:32 ecutruin Which is solved by what me and VanessaE are talking about.
16:33 VanessaE hmmmm: and that's why I am trying to say that the server needs to be able to tell the client ahead of time that "this entity ABSOLUTELY MUST STOP after Y seconds... etc etc etc as above"
16:33 Calinou idea: if an entity is stopped, interpolate its position smoothly
16:33 sapier if you have a apply for x seconds setvelocity or setacceleration translation from moveto(pos) to this call can be done in lua
16:33 hmmmm so I don't get it
16:33 Calinou to compensate
16:33 hmmmm do you want a certain amount of acceleration, or do you want something to be completed in a certain amount of time
16:33 VanessaE hmmmm: pipeworks items flow right out the sides of a tube corner because of lag.
16:33 hmmmm to get both you're going to need to periodically correct the client
16:34 ecutruin hmmmm, you don't need to correct the client until the end, actually.
16:34 VanessaE hmmmm: and this CANNOT be fixed by the server.  it can only be fixed by the client either predicting, or being told ahead of time to stop moving entities when they reach either a certain location, or a certain distance from a starting point.
16:34 hmmmm you don't NEED to, but I don't want the item to magically appear someplace else
16:34 ecutruin The client (assuming there isn't a bug in the programming) should have no problem predicting where the entity is moving.
16:34 hmmmm it'd be better if a correction were periodically sent so the movement on the  client is not horrendously off
16:35 kaeza sapier, the (original) idea was to set a "target point" somewhere, and the speed at which the entity should move between the current position and the "target", with both client and server "stopping" the entity once it's close enough to the point
16:35 ecutruin hmmmm, no.. it wouldn't be better.  That would involve a ton of latency being used to keep entities updated.  That's the whole problem we have currently...
16:35 VanessaE hmmmm: which is worse?  having entities constantly flowing off into never-never-land and then snapping back, repeatedly?  or having items stop moving from time to time, followed by a quick movement from there to where the server says they should be?
16:35 hmmmm it doesn't need to stop moving
16:35 VanessaE hmmmm: it MUST stop moving
16:35 * ecutruin facepaws.
16:35 VanessaE hmmmm: otherwise it'll jus keep on going right off into another mapblock
16:35 hmmmm why
16:36 sapier kaeza: I know but implementing this in core is absolutely incompatible to what we do now, resulting in a lot of half states not being one and not the other one too
16:36 VanessaE just*
16:36 hmmmm yeah, so?  the mapblock it's in doesn't matter until you're saving the entities
16:36 ecutruin VanessaE, I'm done.  I cannot explain this to hmmmm in a way they will understand with my current level of tiredness.  G'luck.
16:36 sapier so if we can achieve same goal with a compatible mechanism why not use that one
16:36 VanessaE hmmmm: it's not about where it goes, it's about where it shouldn't have LEFT FROM
16:36 hmmmm ecutruin:  instead of telling us how stupid we are and facepalming, why don't you be productive and just discuss it with us.  this is why I'm hostile, because of the attitude
16:37 kaeza sapier, why is it "incompatible"? can't the entity just ignore velocity/acceleration while it has a "target"?
16:37 VanessaE hmmmm: really, you have to play on a server that experiences some routine, average lag and see what that lag does to things like these moving entities.
16:37 VanessaE hmmmm: please, for once just trust me - there is no other way to deal with this kind of problem.  this kind of task cannot be predicted client-side.
16:37 kaeza (separate vel/acc)
16:37 hmmmm no I agree
16:37 hmmmm this is why the server would need to correct the course
16:37 sapier kaeza: what happens if someone sets a new velocity or acceleration while positioned movement isn't complete?
16:38 hmmmm so let me get this straight:
16:38 sapier how to apply gravity?
16:38 ecutruin sapier, to continue with what you were worried about.. applying a velocity towards a vector that would cause it to stop after X seconds would be fine as long as it was accurate.  If another velocity supercedes that, its predictable still.. so it should not cause issues with the current design, just require a new command.
16:38 hmmmm you don't know the actual server position of the item at the point in time
16:38 kaeza hmm
16:38 hmmmm and then you adjust the acceleration/velocity
16:38 blaise so like
16:38 hmmmm so then it continues from an unknown starting position to what you thought was the destination
16:38 hmmmm is this right so far?
16:39 blaise is there an installer for windows versions of minetest 0.4.10 yet ?
16:39 VanessaE hmmmm: in practice, you're not going to just randomly change an entity from being accel/velo-based to being position-target based are you?
16:39 sapier blaise: none I know about
16:39 hmmmm no no no
16:39 blaise I'm trying to get the 64 bit version working under windows 7 and it's telling me I don't have openal32.dll
16:39 hmmmm believe me, I'm not
16:39 blaise :\
16:39 kaeza blaise, I made an InnoSetup script long ago (based off xyz's win32 builds); it should be fairly easy to adapt it for new versions
16:40 hmmmm I'm just saying that it might be worthwhile to set the position on the client side explicitly before applying updated acceleration
16:40 kaeza it was for 0.4.4 IIRC
16:40 hmmmm that's how I would do it anyway
16:40 sapier blaise: I suggest trying the 32 bit version there's usually no need for 64 bit on windows
16:40 VanessaE hmmmm: at that point, I guess the behavior is either undefined, or the coder has to guess at it based on what the math says the entity should do
16:40 hmmmm right, and I'll agree that more features could be implemented to improve accuracy
16:40 sapier blaise: unless you wanna use VanessaE's 256+ hires texturepack
16:40 hmmmm but I'm not going to say that it's "broken"
16:40 blaise the msvc version was the one complaining about openal32.dll
16:40 VanessaE hmmmm: oh, no of course.  that's the whole point - you already HAVE a position set at some point before applying a vector-time-velo command
16:41 ecutruin hmmmm, the client would be sent the current position at the time the initial move command is sent, the vector to aim for, a distance to aim for, and a time it should move before stopping.  The server would run the same calculations as the client would.. meaning the client would predict what the server is doing.. but not receive constant updates.  If another velocity command is used, it'll be sent to the client and affect the calculations..
16:41 blaise the mingw version works out of the box...
16:41 blaise just fwi
16:41 kaeza blaise, https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=3&amp;t=4245
16:41 blaise s/w/y/
16:41 VanessaE hmmmm: officially, such a command should never be used without having set a position at some point immediately prior (or at a predictable, defined time anyway)
16:42 hmmmm right
16:42 blaise kaeza: yeah, I read that..
16:42 kaeza eh wait, there's no DL link there
16:42 sapier ecutruin: once that command is set the old command there's no way to continue the moveto command
16:42 hmmmm and you say that tere's no way to stop an object?
16:42 hmmmm there*
16:42 kaeza blaise, it's here: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/5397343
16:42 VanessaE hmmmm: so in the case of pipeworks, for example, position would be reset once a second or so (whatever the flow speed is, I forget the exact figure), and velo-vector-time commands would be sent right after
16:43 ecutruin If I was to design such a command, I'll probably send an updated position once the server finishes its timeout.. so that if some kind of lag did happen on either end, a correction would happen.. but at the very least.. you would only have jumping and not awkward gliding off into oblivion.. a much more predictable result.
16:43 VanessaE hmmmm: there is not.  if you set an entity in motion and then the server lags, the client will just keep on moving that entity until doomsday.
16:43 hmmmm ecutruin:  Yeah, that's pretty logical, that's how I would expect things to work but apparently they do not currently
16:43 hmmmm VanessaE:  Yeah but you're qualifying that with "if it lags"
16:43 VanessaE hmmmm: and if you're attached to that moving entity, you will move with it.  see, for example, carts taking you right off the tracks.
16:43 VanessaE hmmmm: ok, change "if" to "when".
16:43 VanessaE "when it lags"
16:43 hmmmm ideally you'd be able to stop it by setting acceleration vectors to 0
16:43 VanessaE and it WILL lag.
16:43 hmmmm sure, I agree
16:44 hmmmm so my idea was to set the position, set the acceleration
16:44 hmmmm then every so often the server would update where it expected the position to be
16:44 sapier I absolutely disagree to use a position as this is a completely different mechanism to what we use now
16:44 ecutruin sapier, you could easily have new moveto commands send the server's position of said entity and have it override the timer with a new movement.
16:44 hmmmm butt
16:44 sapier while time based limitation is basicaly suggested by our dtime mechanism
16:44 hmmmm you said that initial thing isn't the problem
16:44 hmmmm so we misunderstood what was being said
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16:45 VanessaE yes
16:45 sapier ecutruin: I do think about compatibility too
16:45 ecutruin It would be perfectly compatible with that's there now..
16:45 hmmmm see I thought what you guys were saying was that somehow there's an inaccuracy between the path the server calculated and the client calculated
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16:45 hmmmm if it's just the stopping point, then sure, an explicit set position to the final destination would be the correct solutio
16:45 VanessaE when I say "a movement vector" I guess that's your "accel".  same difference.  to me, accel explicitly means to speed up or slow down, and excludes movement at a constant speed.
16:45 ecutruin Nothing current would be broken by implementing a new command to do this (unless they broke it by accident or somesuch).
16:46 hmmmm solution
16:46 VanessaE hmmmm: yes, but there's a problem with that solution:
16:46 hmmmm well, acceleration means to speed up, slow down, or change direction
16:46 hmmmm if you're going in a circle at a constant speed you're still accelerating
16:46 sapier ecutruin: everything is broken as old clients can't interpret that command at all so entities would stay at old pos or just jumo around
16:46 VanessaE hmmmm: the target position may not be predictable due to math errors.  what if the entity is moving at such a vector that the math just never works out and it misses the target location entirely?
16:47 hmmmm then that's a problem with the calculations
16:47 ecutruin sapier, people would need to update their client.  You know, that kind of happens with advancements in an engine.
16:47 hmmmm here's what I'm thinking:
16:47 VanessaE hmmmm: including float accuracy?
16:47 hmmmm you have your point A explicitly set
16:47 VanessaE go on.
16:47 hmmmm you have your point B explicitly set after a certain amount of time
16:47 sapier I'm known to not be a friend of forcing updates if there's a reasonable way to do it without
16:48 VanessaE ok wait
16:48 hmmmm the acceleration that's being set in the same packet as point A is just an animation to fill in the movement in between the time
16:48 VanessaE you're proposing an explicit "move from point A to point B in X seconds" mechanism?
16:48 hmmmm (i know that's not the way it currently works but it should)
16:48 hmmmm no
16:48 VanessaE ok, go on.
16:48 hmmmm that should be an option though
16:49 VanessaE ok, so just "point A to point B at speed Z"
16:49 VanessaE er accel Z.  anyway
16:49 hmmmm and then, the server tick when the object should have reached the point it sends out the correction
16:49 hmmmm was the original idea^
16:49 sapier suggestion: "object:setacceleration({x=0.1,y=-9.81,z=0.1}, 5)  or object:setvelocity({x=1,y=-9.81,z=1}, 5)" .. last parameter being time the value is valid
16:49 sapier after that time passed it's reset to 0,0,0
16:49 ecutruin sapier, I haven't looked into the MT source, but assuming a version value is sent to servers by the client, you could optionally have the new command just send a acceleration towards the vector as you would do now.. and kill it as you do now.. old clients would still have the visual issues, but new ones would get the prediction command instead and accurately handle the movement.
16:50 hmmmm I do not have a problem with a moveto command, but the thing is, the acceleration would still need to be a sane estimate because it'd only be there for the ANIMATION purposes
16:50 ecutruin hmmmm, incorrect.  It should be there for physics purposes, animation purposes, interaction purposes, etc.
16:50 hmmmm but the acceleration itself and the movement in between the two points within that time would not be a predictor of where it goes
16:50 sapier animation isn't linked to movement
16:51 sapier I had a pull request once but it never was merged
16:51 hmmmm ecutruin:  incorrect?  oh, so you want to add in a new layer of complexity?
16:51 hmmmm ecutruin:  like I said, talk is cheap, show me the code
16:51 ecutruin Essentially, what we want is move in a direction over # seconds.. actually move.
16:51 ecutruin Not just animate your way there.. actually move there.
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16:52 hmmmm what you could do is have an initial acceleration vector and then a constant acceleration rate that's applied over the course of the object's movement lifetime
16:53 ecutruin hmmmm, that's what I've been saying.
16:53 hmmmm given the period of time you'd like for it to move over, you could then calculate the initial acceleration and the constant acceleration to be applied
16:53 ecutruin Identical to what I've been saying actually.
16:53 sapier there's no way to do the moveto without some sort of acceleration pattern
16:53 * ecutruin sighs.
16:53 Eater4 VanessaE: you have a mention on InchraNet
16:53 sapier unless you don't wanna use acceleration at all
16:53 hmmmm well they'd specify initial acceleration and initial velocity
16:54 sapier if you use acceleration how is it supposed to behave? accelerate for x seconds then keep velocity then accelerate to stop?
16:54 VanessaE Eater4: ok.
16:54 hmmmm oh whoops
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16:54 hmmmm I meant to say initial velocity
16:54 hmmmm you'd have an initial velocity and a constant acceleration
16:55 hmmmm so if you were firing a cannon
16:55 hmmmm you'd have an initial velocity vector and the constant gravity acceleration vector
16:55 ecutruin hmmmm, not needed.  If you specify "vector", "distance" and "time" you have essentially said I want object "A" to move to point "B" over "X" seconds.  Barring any outside forces, client and server could seperately run that simulation and come to the same result.
16:55 hmmmm you apply the constant gravity until the velocity is <= 0 as expected
16:56 hmmmm ecutruin:  I don't see why the server should calculate that
16:56 hmmmm that's a Lua thing
16:56 sapier but I don't wanna have gravity applied to birds or fish ;-)
16:56 hmmmm sapier, then set their constant acceleration vector to 0
16:56 hmmmm does this all make sense or am I just being a goober?
16:56 sapier so we hardcode as of position is set only y acceleration is applied?
16:57 hmmmm no hardcoding necessary
16:57 blaise EH
16:57 hmmmm the movement packet just has the initial position, initial velocity, and constant acceleration
16:57 blaise all the ground textures are red
16:57 blaise it's, kinda like hell...
16:57 hmmmm the lua portion would take in the "amount of time" and calculate the acceleration needed
16:57 blaise lmao
16:57 sapier yes that's what we have right now
16:58 hmmmm that's what we have??
16:58 hmmmm then why do you need anything else
16:58 sapier wait no the amount of time is missing that's what I suggested
16:58 ecutruin hmmmm, why would you calculate anything via LUA?
16:58 hmmmm the amount of time isn't needed
16:58 kaeza blaise, disable shaders, or use OpenGL
16:58 ecutruin You need TIME!...
16:58 VanessaE hmmmm: well this can make sense and you can still be a goober at the same time - it wouldn't be the first time that's happened ;)
16:58 hmmmm you can calculate those three vectors given an amount of time
16:58 * ecutruin sighs and just shakes his head..
16:58 hmmmm it's a high school physics problem
16:58 hmmmm you can calculate it too
16:58 VanessaE blaise: turn off shaders.
16:58 sapier engine needs time but api can provide the position
16:59 hmmmm ecutruin:  like I was saying, stop making all sorts of moaning and groaning sounds and be constructive
16:59 blaise that's awesome
16:59 Calinou there's interpolation code in content_cao.cpp
16:59 Calinou SmoothTranslator
16:59 hmmmm was not aware.  let me take a look
16:59 blaise lmao
17:00 sapier yes moveto doesn't "jump" but really moves
17:00 Calinou it's used for smoothing player movement (not yaw changes, sadly)
17:00 hmmmm what I'm talking about already exists in minetest...
17:00 hmmmm WTF then, are people just not applying the api correctly?
17:01 Eater4 Does anyone know how to program in python?
17:01 sapier you can't specify a "time" in moveto hmmmm
17:01 ecutruin I have been.. but you refuse to listen to anything I've said.. and keep blabbing on yourself (you even mentioned my own suggestion at one point).  What we need is "move towards a specific vector over a set amount of time", specifically this.  Anything else you go on about doesn't further this discussion either.. because THIS IS WHAT WE NEED.
17:01 VanessaE hmmmm: there is no way to specify a stop time or a destination location at all.  period.
17:01 VanessaE you simply can't do it.
17:02 Jordach or even define a point to pause or stop a entities animation frame
17:02 hmmmm VanessaE:  given point A and point B, initial velocity and constant acceleration, I am able to calculate the time needed
17:02 VanessaE hmmmm:  yes.
17:02 blaise 11:53:01: ACTION[ServerThread]: Ahmed2006 right-clicks object 4: LuaEntitySAO at (83,1.5,152)
17:02 hmmmm also given the time needed I can calculate either initial velocity needed or constant acceleration needed
17:02 VanessaE hmmmm: but we have no point B in the API.  it doesn't allow it.
17:02 ecutruin You're saying we want to calculate time in LUA.. no.. that's the problem we have currently.  LUA cannot be the calculator because LUA doesn't exist on the client.. and the client needs to do the movement seperately of the server.
17:02 blaise dude crashed my server with that
17:02 blaise lmao
17:02 hmmmm okay then, we add the point B.
17:02 hmmmm I don't want to make a computer algebra system here, this is minetest, not wolfram alpha
17:03 hmmmm we just add the point B and then the Lua API will have the computations needed
17:03 VanessaE hmmmm: fair enough - just trying to clarify your point about whether we've been misusing the API :)
17:03 hmmmm err
17:03 hmmmm I mean the Lua facing API
17:03 hmmmm in the builtin
17:03 VanessaE yes.
17:03 VanessaE and as it lacks any way to specify "point B", we aren't misusing it.
17:03 Jordach hmmmm, i think i've abused the API with my chests
17:03 hmmmm OK, sorry about that then
17:04 hmmmm I take it the "point A" in SmooothTranslator is init()?
17:04 hmmmm also whoever coded that apparently doesn't understand what a constructor is
17:04 ecutruin hmmmm, again.. by suggesting a point B.. you're suggesting what I suggested. >.< ... yet you called me an idiot.
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17:06 ecutruin Perhaps you can understand why I am a bit frustrated when I specifically stated a move from point A to B over X time.. and now you're saying that's what we need.  I tried to suggestion an alternative (that being VanessaE's concept of using a vector and just firing it off with the promise that it'll stop at a specific time, which would give the same effect), and I was still assaulted and told I know nothing.
17:06 ecutruin Yet, you've now suggested both of my options.
17:14 ecutruin Anyways, I'm going to consider my part in this discussion done, as we're obviously going in circles.  Thanks VanessaE for the specific vector suggestion though.  I do like that concept better then a direct position to position move.  Anyways.. back to other things for now.
17:15 VanessaE Meanwhile, I think I should try to stick to just mods, and not do a lot of discussion of features in the engine.
17:15 * ecutruin snickers.
17:15 * Calinou mars.
17:16 hmmmm I'm not saying that's what we need
17:16 hmmmm I'm saying that's what we could do
17:16 hmmmm (but we'd have to have any two of the desired acceleration vector, desired initial velocity, or desired time)
17:17 hmmmm so, okay.  TOCLIENT_MOVEMENT could use a bit of change
17:20 cerulean256 joined #minetest
17:20 cerulean256 so I believe I found a bug in technice
17:20 cerulean256 technic* quarry
17:21 Jordach /join #minetest-technic
17:21 Jordach ^ cerulean256
17:21 VanessaE cerulean256: --> #minetest-technic
17:21 VanessaE ninja'd
17:21 Jordach tl;dr ^
17:21 cerulean256 thnx
17:21 PenguinDad and there's still no issue about it
17:26 hmmmm pff
17:26 hmmmm so apparently I am supposed to fly to atlanta, GA on the 20th
17:26 hmmmm I just learn this now all of a sudden
17:27 Calinou try not to insult everyone
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17:27 fling Hello.
17:27 fling I see fancy clouds in menus but only grey screen in the game
17:28 hmmmm Calinou:  I sensed aggressiveness first
17:28 Calinou fling, screenshot?
17:31 Eater4 must be talking about the servers
17:31 fling Calinou: http://mirror.dno.so/incom​ing/screenshots/minetest/
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17:32 Eater4 You are missing a game it looks like.....what minetest versoin are you using fling
17:32 Calinou something is likely wrong with paths to games and textures
17:32 fling Eater4: 0.4.10 as seen on the screenshot
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17:33 Calinou oh, you only have the minimal game
17:33 Calinou fling, clone this git repository in the “games” directory of your Minetest installation: http://github.com/minetest/minetest_game
17:33 Calinou git clone http://github.com/minetest/minetest_game.git
17:33 Calinou git clone https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game.git
17:34 fling http://bpaste.net/show/465797/
17:34 Calinou quit the game, restart it, select the Minetest game (click the Minetest logo near the minimal game logo), start a new world
17:35 Calinou and you're good to do
17:35 diemartin "survival" game? O_o
17:35 Calinou sounds like an invalid game id
17:35 fling Calinou: I'm now trying this -> emerge -1 games-action/minetest_build games-action/minetest_common games-action/minetest_game
17:35 kaeza or ye olde survival subgame from the `common` era
17:35 PenguinDad The good old common mods :D
17:35 Calinou oh, you probably shouldn't
17:36 Calinou fling, that stuff is horribly outdated :P I'd suggest cloning Minetest Git and compiling it
17:36 fling Calinou: I can write an ebuild
17:36 fling if you will help me to decide what goes to which package
17:36 fling and what depends on what :P
17:37 fling Calinou: so all the gentoo users will be able to just 'emerge' things
17:37 Calinou I don't use Gentoo
17:37 hmmmm hmm
17:37 Calinou but a generic Minetest installation is expected to be composed with the Minetest engine <https://github.com/minetest/minetest> and the Minetest game <https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game>
17:37 VanessaE imho, the main engine from http://github.com/minetest/minetest is minetest_core, and the main game is minetest_game
17:38 fling Calinou: so only two packages and no survival and others?
17:38 VanessaE but that's just me.
17:38 Calinou yes
17:38 Calinou survival, build, common are old and no longer used since 2013
17:38 kaeza don't do like Debian; keep the repos up-to-date ;_;
17:39 fling and minetest_game depends on minetest
17:39 fling kaeza: I did not knew about minetest until today!
17:39 kaeza heh :P
17:39 kaeza welcome
17:40 Calinou kaeza, there are outdated copies of my mods in Debian :P
17:40 Calinou eg. minetest-mod-moreblocks
17:40 Calinou from September 2013
17:41 VanessaE mine too, I'm sure
17:42 VanessaE (as I recall, homedecor and pipeworks, at least; I don't maintain those packages either)
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17:49 Calinou it's frequent for games in Debian to package silly and outdated things
17:51 kaeza s/games/software/
17:52 Jordach Calinou, locusts :P
17:52 Calinou yeah
17:53 Calinou Debian has tons of packages that should just be unified probably
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17:53 VanessaE I should tell the guys who maintain those packages of mine, rip them out, replace them with Dreambuilder ;)
17:54 VanessaE of course that thing is always being updated, too so it'll go out of date within one or two days of release anyway
17:56 * sfan5 meows at Calinou
17:58 Sokomine depend on git and just provide an update-script? :-)
17:59 Calinou Debian is obviously against that
18:01 Sokomine oh
18:01 Sokomine for mods? hm
18:01 Calinou fling, did you fix your issues with the game?
18:01 Calinou Sokomine, for anything in general
18:01 Calinou they don't want updaters
18:01 Calinou or even update notificaitons
18:02 Calinou Debian-“censored” versions of software are fairly frequent
18:07 Sokomine hmm. for most things, i'm quite satisfied with debian. perhaps for games it's just good enough to show people that those games exist and tell them to get the latest version on the webpage
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18:16 thefamilygrog66 What's the command for starting a new server using leveldb (instead of sqlite)?
18:17 sfan5 edit world.mt
18:17 sfan5 set backend to leveldb
18:18 thefamilygrog66 But world.mt isn't created until after the world is, no?
18:18 thefamilygrog66 So I need to create a world (using sqlite) and then convert it to leveldb?
18:21 sfan5 thefamilygrog66: you can do it like that too
18:22 thefamilygrog66 Okay, I'm a bit confused then. How can I edit world.mt if the world itself hasn't been created yet?
18:22 Calinou generate a world first
18:23 Calinou using --world world
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18:32 thefamilygrog66 Thanks Calinou & sfan5
18:33 thefamilygrog66 Can I delete the rollback.sqlite file as well, or do I need that for rollback?
18:34 Calinou well, you obviously need it for rollback
18:34 Calinou but since you've done nothing on the world, you can safely delete it
18:35 Calinou rollback never works for me, so I keep it off
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19:01 LemonLake hello, Jordach
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19:05 Taoki Hey. Slightly off-topic question, but: Does Github allow you to make a repository for posting documentation, art, etc? Or must every reposirory be a program / script / etc? Couldn't find the info on their site so
19:07 Exio joined #minetest
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19:10 domtron Taoki They support repositories that act as a static website which is basicly documentation, art, ect. Other then that I'm not sure.
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19:11 domtron I have a repo where I only use the wiki with no actual content in the repository.
19:11 Taoki nice. Yeah in regard to rules and such... wasn't sure
19:11 Taoki but that does sound like it
19:11 Taoki So you can basically host web pages on them too?
19:12 Taoki Might be helpful actually since I plan to make HTML5 games
19:12 blaise what's the recipe for a torch again?!
19:12 blaise coal and two sticks, in the center position?
19:13 Exio C
19:13 Exio S
19:13 Exio afaik
19:13 blaise ah, yes
19:13 domtron you can make a repo which acts like a static webpage for your user or a branch in a repository that acts like a webpage for that project.
19:13 domtron Taoki: chech out Github's pages documentation for how it works.
19:14 domtron Taoki: here is a link https://pages.github.com/
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19:22 Taoki thanks
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19:27 ezraanderson sapier, still no luck getting my build to run on correctly on android (grey screen when entering singleplayer/or server)
19:27 ezraanderson should I do forum post or open a git issue
19:27 sapier very strange, can you post your exact environment on gist? os, ndk sdk version
19:28 sapier don't know what a issue would help as our official build works ;-)
19:29 sapier but you still can open it of course attach debug.txt console log via adb, os sdk ndk device technical and software data
19:29 ezraanderson sure can, is it okay to start a forum post, and post my everything  there?
19:31 domtron joined #minetest
19:34 UukGoblin wiki.minetest.net/Bucket incorrectly states to use right mouse button to fill buckets - it works with left mouse button for me
19:34 UukGoblin also, I need to be positioned in a funny way - i.e. I can't fill a bucket when I'm in water
19:34 UukGoblin seems that I need to be standing next to it or sth
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20:19 ezraanderson https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=6&amp;t=5073 <-- just read this
20:19 ezraanderson Add "debug_log_level = 4" to minetest.conf
20:19 ezraanderson will this give me more information?
20:23 sapier maybe
20:24 ezraanderson I dont' see minetest.conf only minetest.conf.example
20:25 ezraanderson was I suppose to make a minetest.conf for android is this my problem?
20:26 sfan5 before anybody complains about the server list: <Fusl> Maintenances will be held in a few minutes (please expect the service to go down at any time from NOW ON) and will also take some minutes until i reconfigure the router. Thanks for your patience and your understanding!
20:28 Exio sfan5, serverlist doesnt work !!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!1!!!!
20:33 PenguinDad *hysteric voice* Where's the server list!?
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20:57 * Jordach meows at sfan5
20:59 * Jordach purrs at LemonLake
21:01 ezraanderson sapier: can you please look at this post -> https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=6&amp;t=9765
21:02 sapier what toolchain version?
21:02 ezraanderson I have also compared logcat & debug.txt from my build vs offical build, and I don't see any diferences
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21:02 sapier do you have a black or gray screen?
21:03 ezraanderson irt loks grey to me?
21:04 sapier --system=linux-x86_64 wait ... android toolchain is 32bit only, if you don't have 32bit support libs installed it won't work
21:04 ezraanderson "what toolchain version" do you mean make-standalone-toolchain.sh, version?
21:05 ezraanderson well it compiles, wouldn't it throw errors if this was the problem?
21:05 sapier megaf did already try to compile on 64 bit only os for what I remember he didn't succeed too
21:06 sapier quite likely but there could be undetected issues too
21:06 ezraanderson i think all my libs are intalled anyways, because I compile other android stuff with the same tool chain
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21:07 * LemonLake meows at Jordach
21:07 Jordach :3
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21:08 sapier do you have other stuff using support libs too?
21:08 ezraanderson meaning?
21:08 ezraanderson curl?
21:08 sapier for example yes
21:09 ezraanderson I do, but the minetest makefile seems to download everything into its own deb
21:09 sapier what did you change in client.cpp I don't see a difference?
21:09 ezraanderson and moai, uses its own version too, not the systems
21:10 sapier of course systems is wrong because system isn't arm ;-)
21:10 ezraanderson I didn't change anything, I was just browsing source code, so "HACK" client delay
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21:11 sapier well that's  a delay while progress bar is still shown you can forget about it
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21:11 sapier hmm sorry misread the 32 bit thingy ... you have a native 32 bit os?
21:12 ezraanderson correct. native 32bit
21:12 sapier hmm that is a difference
21:12 PenguinDad !seen EvergreenTree
21:12 MinetestBot PenguinDad: evergreentree was last seen at 2014-07-12 00:46:43 UTC on #minetest
21:14 sapier try changing to --system=linux-i686
21:14 ezraanderson sorry, you mean the makefile --> --system=linux-x86_64;  --> is wrong -> I thought system is just point to a dir, inside the ndk folder
21:14 ezraanderson oh
21:14 ezraanderson I will try that
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21:15 sapier I'd expect it to fail on wrong api but I've seen more strange things to compile for unknown reason
21:15 hoodedice sfan5: MT is acting weird, I'm gonna go ahead and test stuff across both builds. My laptop is unfortunately acting up too for some unknown reason
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21:35 UukGoblin how deep until I can find Mese? :-)
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21:38 hoodedice I think it is -250
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21:38 UukGoblin oh
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21:39 UukGoblin I have 190 more to go then, thanks
21:39 EvergreenTree I forget, in git, how do I fix this branch from being 8 commits behind master?  https://github.com/4Evergreen4/m​inetest/tree/screen_size_setting
21:40 EvergreenTree I tried the stuff in dev.minetest.net/Git
21:40 EvergreenTree doesn't work for updating the fork
21:40 hoodedice you need to update branch to match master?
21:40 UukGoblin EvergreenTree, something like git checkout screen_size_setting; git reset --hard HEAD^^^^^^^^; git push
21:40 UukGoblin but
21:40 UukGoblin other people who might have this branch might not like it
21:40 UukGoblin oh... FROM being
21:40 EvergreenTree No one else has that branch, I just created it
21:41 UukGoblin if you want to get the latest master into it, just merge them
21:41 UukGoblin git checkout screen_size_setting; git merge master
21:41 EvergreenTree doh
21:41 hoodedice UukGoblin: Mese clusters start from -65, become more common after -250
21:41 EvergreenTree Thanks
21:41 EvergreenTree :p
21:41 hoodedice If you go as deep as -1024, you might get a MESE block
21:41 kaeza s/merge/rebase/ ?
21:41 hoodedice http://wiki.minetest.net/Mese_Ore
21:42 hoodedice rebase, I think
21:42 UukGoblin it all depends on the way you guys manage branches, and I don't know how you do it :-) yes, rebase could work too
21:43 kaeza the devs seem to like linear history
21:43 UukGoblin to do a rebase, i.e. to move your branch on top of new master, checkout your branch, then do git rebase --onto master <point_at_which_your_branch_started> <your_branch_name>
21:43 kaeza don't ever mention "merge" in front of c55 <_<
21:43 UukGoblin kaeza, ookay :-)
21:45 UukGoblin does Minecraft have the same funny fluid dynamics, where one bucket can flood an entire cave?
21:45 kaeza kinda
21:46 kaeza except their liquid flowing code is a bit "smarter"
21:46 kaeza in that liquid only flows toward lower elevation
21:46 hoodedice wut?
21:46 hoodedice MT's lquid goes to higher elevation?
21:46 hoodedice TIL
21:46 kaeza hoodedice, key word is "only"
21:46 hoodedice uh
21:47 hoodedice got it
21:47 kaeza MT fluids spread in all directions; MC ones only spread toward lower elev
21:47 UukGoblin ah
21:47 kaeza (unless they can't find lower elevation nearby, in which case they just flow like MT ones)
21:47 UukGoblin so can't quite flood an entire cave unless you spilled the bucket 1 level higher
21:47 UukGoblin oh. :-)
21:47 hoodedice No UukGoblin
21:48 hoodedice To flood an entire cave, you need to flood level 1 with enough water source blocks
21:48 hoodedice Then flood level 2, then level 3 and so on, where a level is a block hieght
21:48 hoodedice s/hieght/height
21:49 PenguinDad hoodedice: flooding caves with water blocks is easy
21:49 UukGoblin hmm
21:50 UukGoblin well, not quite flood, but I managed to extinguish quite a lot of lava with one bucketfull of water
21:50 ezraanderson sapier, console complained with "system=i686" and recommend useing "system=x86", so I am trying x86 now
21:50 UukGoblin also, I could easily replenish that bucket with the same water I used originally :-D
21:50 UukGoblin it's fun either way ;-D
21:51 UukGoblin I didn't quite get how it works though, I hope I won't get flooded on my -70 excavation
21:51 UukGoblin there's a waterfall flowing into the cave in one place, but it doesn't seem to be able to ever fill it with water (which is kinda counterintuitive until you learn about water sources)
21:52 Exio add mese rocks, mese crystal spawns (rarely) on the ground!
21:52 sapier does anyone know a working .X import filter for blender?
21:52 Exio <- pro idea! :P
21:53 kaeza hoodedice, UukGoblin, https://cdn.mediacru.sh/d6WxD_vr5-Ui.png
21:54 UukGoblin bucket-sourced stream :-)
21:54 hoodedice sapier, I have this FreeOBJ something converter in Windows
21:56 hoodedice sapier: http://freex2obj.software.informer.com/
21:57 hoodedice Sorry, use this: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?​m=forum_view&amp;t=192234&amp;b=1
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21:59 UukGoblin uh-oh, gravel falls like sand
22:00 hoodedice brb
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22:01 UukGoblin YELLOW STUFF!
22:02 UukGoblin YEEEES
22:02 * UukGoblin jumps around merrily
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22:05 sapier hoodedice thanks but I'd need somethin supporting animation too
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22:13 ezraanderson sapier, no joy, same grey screen :(
22:15 sapier very strange ... did you try on a different device?
22:15 ezraanderson 3 devices
22:15 sapier can you upload your build?
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22:15 ezraanderson could you post ur dev, setup?
22:15 ezraanderson yes I can
22:16 VanessaE "ur" ?
22:17 VanessaE kill... KILL....
22:17 sapier https://gist.github.com/ano​nymous/b9c8e3b36d3f2d6d8ad5
22:19 ezraanderson thanks
22:21 sapier well I don't think it's gonna help very much
22:24 ezraanderson well if I get board, I might setup your dev-env, see if I can reproduce  or succed with buildig minetest
22:25 ezraanderson I need to take a break from my projects, so I thought I would check out minetest
22:25 ezraanderson now I have tunnel vision trying to get it to work :)
22:26 Exio VanessaE, kill? that isn't enough
22:26 ezraanderson I tried get it to build for android about a year ago with no success, I was hoping it was going to be a fun thing to tinker with
22:27 ezraanderson now I am just frustrated :) because I want it to work for me !!!
22:27 VanessaE Exio: burn with acid first?
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22:28 Exio i'd say, make him drink some acid and then start slowly pouring acid over his body
22:28 VanessaE ouch.
22:30 ShadowNinja Google seems to like GET too much... http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7800644/
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22:38 UukGoblin what are thos 4 things in the top-left corner (not the mesecons) here? http://mesecons.net/luacontroller/
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22:41 VanessaE silicon
22:42 UukGoblin ah, there! thanks
22:43 kaeza silly cone
22:43 LemonLake UukGoblin: a back arrow
22:46 UukGoblin LemonLake, ah, lol ;-)
22:46 UukGoblin just noticed it ;-)
22:47 UukGoblin oh damn... my items disappear!
22:48 UukGoblin guess I need a chest or something
22:49 VanessaE LemonLake: weren't you working on some extension to pipeworks?
22:56 LemonLake VanessaE: not exactly
22:56 LemonLake but i dropped that project for now
22:56 VanessaE aw
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23:48 UukGoblin so I created the Luacontroller, played around with some basic code (which worked), then returned to the menu and went back to my world. My PC crashed (some windows bug I think, sometimes triggered by Minetest, but not only), and after a reboot, minetest won't load my world again: http://pastebin.com/jf06cdYV
23:48 UukGoblin some lua errors, but doesn't seem to be coming from my luacontroller at all
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23:53 VanessaE actually, I think that IS from lua controllers, after a fashion
23:53 yaman hello everyone
23:53 yaman I have an idea for a mod
23:53 VanessaE I believe they use forceloading but I'm not entirely sure they use it right
23:54 yaman not very complex but what it does is when you dig cobblestone you get gravel
23:54 yaman bai now
23:55 UukGoblin oh.
23:55 UukGoblin VanessaE, any ideas on how I can fix my world? perhaps remove just the controller? or change its code?
23:56 UukGoblin it'd be a blob somewhere in map.sqlite I'm guessing...
23:56 UukGoblin unfortunately I don't remember what coordinates I placed the controller on :-/
23:57 VanessaE delete the lua controller mod from mesecons for now
23:57 VanessaE then start your world and you should be where you were when you were last
23:58 VanessaE (mesecons is a modpack, so you can simply delete the mesecons_luacontroller folder, or however it's named)
23:58 UukGoblin hm, good idea
23:58 VanessaE go find the unknown node that points to the lua controller, right click to get its code if you still can, copy it, paste it to a pastebin, and dig the node.
23:58 VanessaE (yes, undefined nodes sometimes still retain their metadata)
23:58 VanessaE then re-install mesecons
23:58 UukGoblin however it still fails to run :-/
23:58 UukGoblin one sec
23:59 VanessaE ok, then that wasn't enough.
23:59 VanessaE hm
23:59 UukGoblin a different error this time I think
23:59 UukGoblin ah, it's just a: The following mods could not be found: "mesecons_luacontroller"
23:59 UukGoblin oh and then some, one sec

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