Time  Nick          Message
00:15 khonkhortisan it looks odd that vines hanging from a tree would stop just at the surface of the water
00:57 VanessaE      PilzAdam: carts is up-to-date, yes.
00:57 VanessaE      also, hi
01:05 kaeza         hey V
01:11 VanessaE      hey
01:13 PilzAdam      bye
01:25 kaeza         http://dottech.org/113780/start-wandows-ngrmadly-image/
01:29 VanessaE      kaeza: eek
01:36 VanessaE      Taoki|away: that fog coloring is looking good
02:14 khonkhortisan when the safe mode screen is corrupted...
02:16 VanessaE      ...then you know you have a REAL problem :)
02:17 khonkhortisan I just fell through the top of a vertical wire
02:25 MinetestBot   GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Make generated water a shade darker to match up with older versions 9126823c7e 2013-06-28T19:22:44-07:00 http://git.io/PrDh6w
02:29 STHGOM        quick question: is it possible to make a map with only one node?
02:33 ShadowNinja   STHGOM: Singlenode mapgen.
02:36 VanessaE      http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=97159#p97159    <--- since when is a question like this "off topic"?
02:37 STHGOM        me no no
02:37 STHGOM        *me no know
02:43 STHGOM        <ShadowNinja> STHGOM: Singlenode mapgen. <--- how do you do that?
02:44 ShadowNinja   STHGOM: There is a option in minetest.conf.
02:46 kaeza         mg_name = singlenode
02:46 STHGOM        there is only one minetest.conf right/
02:48 ShadowNinja   By default, yes.
02:49 STHGOM        ok i got it: now i can fall for eternity
02:49 STHGOM        :D
02:53 MinetestBot   GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Add Lua VoxelArea methods: contains, containsp, containsi 0003fc8215 2013-06-28T19:52:13-07:00 http://git.io/pdrWmw
02:54 STHGOM        http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=6247 <-- do you chat "//pos1", "//pos2", and "//set default:dirt"?
02:55 STHGOM        nvm i got it
02:55 STHGOM        cya
02:59 khonkhortisan *places travelnet
02:59 khonkhortisan *attempts digging travelnet
02:59 khonkhortisan "Error: Update failed! Resetting this box on the travelnet."
03:00 khonkhortisan "This travelnet box has not been configured yet. Please set it up first to claim it. Afterwards you can remove it because you are then the owner."
03:00 khonkhortisan *sets travelnet up as aoeu aoeu aoeu
03:00 VanessaE      sokomine:  ^^^^^^^
03:00 khonkhortisan "Station 'aoeu' has been added to the network 'aoeu', which now consists of 1 station(s)."
03:00 khonkhortisan *digs travelnet
03:00 VanessaE      that may be what the user on my server was running into earlier.
03:00 khonkhortisan "Station 'aou' has been REMOVED from the network 'aoeu'."
03:00 khonkhortisan *places travelnet
03:01 khonkhortisan *attempts setting up travelnet as aoeu aoeu aoeu
03:01 khonkhortisan "There is no tetwork named aoeu owned by aoeu. Aborting."
03:01 khonkhortisan *repeat setting up as asdf
03:01 khonkhortisan *dig travelnet
03:01 khonkhortisan There are now two extraneous travelnets aoeu and asdf.
03:02 khonkhortisan Just because I couldn't un-place a node.
03:03 khonkhortisan oh, if I skip the owner, I can add it to a previous extraneous network.
03:07 sokomine      yes, unconfigured travelnets are a bit problematic. configuring them and then digging helps
03:07 sokomine      oh?
03:08 khonkhortisan but now that I've created and dug one with aoeu aoeu aoeu, I can't create another aoeu aoeu aoeu .
03:08 sokomine      hm. that sounds like a bug
03:08 khonkhortisan ack! stuck in an elevator!
03:08 sokomine      vanessas server?
03:08 khonkhortisan yes
03:08 VanessaE      khonkhortisan: right click and press the " < > " button.
03:08 sokomine      are the elevator doors closed? if so, klick on the open/close doors button
03:09 khonkhortisan oh
03:09 VanessaE      sokomine: you might want to fix your labelling :)
03:09 khonkhortisan so that's what that's for - I thought it was just a reference to the current location
03:09 sokomine      what's wrong with the labelling?
03:09 VanessaE      see above :P
03:09 khonkhortisan Click on target to travel there: <>
03:09 sokomine      no, it is also for opening doors. i tried to stick to the real sign that one finds on such elevators
03:10 khonkhortisan I don't want to click it because I'm already there
03:10 sokomine      oh. hm. if i name it open/close doors (as i had done first), there would be no space left for the station name
03:10 VanessaE      sokomine: move the open/close to a separate button and just leave the "current location" as showing the floor number or whatever
03:10 VanessaE      after all, it's not like a real elevator changes the current floor button into "open/close" ;)
03:11 sokomine      hmm. that might be an option. extra button sounds like a good idea
03:11 sokomine      :-)
03:11 VanessaE      you should try to model a real elevator keypad as closely as possible, visually, if you can
03:12 VanessaE      with nice round image buttons :)
03:12 VanessaE      anyway I'm out
03:12 VanessaE      too tired to stay on
03:12 VanessaE      night all
03:12 sokomine      hm, yes. in that case, it might need the numeric pad at the left and the labels at the right. i'm afraid that would be more confusing...there's only limited space
03:12 kaeza         night
03:12 sokomine      sleep well
03:12 khonkhortisan hehe I have mesecon wire along the ceiling
03:12 sokomine      oh yes, hm, image buttons. with an emergency button :-)
03:13 khonkhortisan hmm pistons rotate my wire
04:00 Kacey         hi guys i'm back
04:04 ShadowNinja   thexyz: xpanes/fences have issues with being placed near unknown nodes...
04:15 khonkhortisan Many mods have trouble with that. We (Uberi) just fixed a bunch of that in mesecons
04:26 Kacey         anyone alive?
04:26 ShadowNinja   Nope. ;-)
04:29 Kacey         well then... BRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:30 Kacey         ooh ShadowNinja, the farm was totally emoty when i checked on it
04:31 ShadowNinja   :-(
04:31 Kacey         empty*
04:31 Kacey         but ooh well
04:45 * Kacey       is going to finish skrim 100% by the end of the summer
04:46 Kacey         i must go
05:00 reactor       .yeH
05:01 ShadowNinja   reactor: ?
05:01 reactor       ShadowNinja: ?
05:02 ShadowNinja   <reactor> .yeH
05:02 ShadowNinja   Hmmm.
05:03 ShadowNinja   !rev .yeH
05:03 MinetestBot   Hey.
05:03 reactor       Oh god.
05:03 reactor       Rather "eh, gerd".
05:14 reactor       ShadowNinja: congratulations. It took you 65535 seconds to guess what it is.
05:15 reactor       I would not rather draw conclusions from your testing.
05:15 ShadowNinja   reactor: Wha?
05:15 reactor       ^
05:17 ShadowNinja   reactor: What do you mean? ".yeH" -> "Hey."?
05:18 reactor       .haey oH
05:18 reactor       s/oH/hO/
05:18 diemartin     fail
05:18 diemartin     trolling is a art. you fail at it
05:20 reactor       I am not trolling.
05:21 reactor       I'm merely saying what is                    appropriate according to this flowchart.
06:16 diemartin     https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/Captura%20de%20pantalla%20de%202013-06-29%2003%3A08%3A41.jpg
06:52 reactor       разуплотняэ
07:02 VanessaE      there.  that takes care of that issue.
08:22 VanessaE      bbl
10:58 PilzAdam      Hello everyone!
11:04 Jordach       nearly done with my damn model
11:08 iqualfragile  hi PilzAdam
11:13 * Jordach     hates rendering blender films
11:13 Jordach       80 frames = 3 mijs
11:13 Jordach       mins*
11:16 * Jordach     pokes Taoki
11:18 Jordach       (fucking blender, it rendered .ogv as .ogg)
11:18 Jordach       http://www.mediafire.com/download/onja219yosovvll/0000-0250.ogg
11:18 Jordach       ^ MK2 model
11:25 Exio          Jordach: what cpu&gpu?
11:27 Jordach       Intel Pentium 4 + nVidia GeForce 6200 AGP 8x @ 1gb
11:29 Exio          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_%28software%29#Hardware_requirements
11:29 Exio          and 2gb of ram?
11:30 Exio          the cpu kills you :P
11:35 Taoki         Jordach: Looks good
11:35 Jordach       Taoki, i have learned more about blender
11:36 Jordach       now the realtest(TM) is camera tracking
11:36 jin_xi        anyone into dwarf fortress? nice interview here http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131954/interview_the_making_of_dwarf_.php?print=1
11:38 Jordach       Taoki, you dont need lights in blender 2.67b
11:38 Jordach       the materials tab has something called "shadeless" which removes all lighing and makes the model appear lit without lights
11:52 Taoki         sure, that fcan work to make a material unaffacted by lighting (if you ever need to in some circumstances)
12:13 kaeza         mornings
12:45 Zeg9          Sorry
12:54 kaeza         now this is weird https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415702667.jpg
12:55 kaeza         up close: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415779420.jpg
12:57 arsdragonfly1 hello everyone
12:57 kaeza         hi
12:57 arsdragonfly1 I'm writing a mod about an advanced market that works like stock markets in real life
12:58 kaeza         nice
12:58 arsdragonfly1 thus there's no need to go to a shopping center & look for something everywhere
12:58 arsdragonfly1 now I need your opinion : do you prefer CLI or GUI?
12:59 arsdragonfly1 or both?
13:00 kaeza         either one is fine
13:00 kaeza         hey Zeg9
13:00 Zeg9          Hello!
13:01 arsdragonfly1 hi
13:01 kaeza         Zeg9, your UFOs have landed in my world
13:01 kaeza         https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415702667.jpg
13:02 kaeza         the aliens are making strange shapes in the sky
13:02 Zeg9          :o
13:02 Zeg9          what node is it?
13:03 Zeg9          is it a dungeon?
13:03 kaeza         looks like a dungeon
13:03 kaeza         https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415779420.jpg
13:09 STHGOM        hi
13:12 STHGOM        i need to change the sky texture on a certain world, how would i do that
13:14 STHGOM        hmm...
13:15 STHGOM        i am making a space map with the singlenode mapgen...
13:15 STHGOM        even though i just set the time to /time 8000 its still dark
13:16 STHGOM        maybe i dont need a different texture for the sky :D
13:34 Zeg9          STHGOM, RealBadAngel was working on skydomes for minetest, maybe try his branch
13:35 STHGOM        i dont need it anymore but thank you
13:37 STHGOM        hehheh i found a nayan cat...
13:50 lamefun       hello
13:51 PenguinDad    Hi!
14:05 PilzAdam      new win build: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4547
14:08 PenguinDad    My friend likes your builds, but in the future he gets a Linux-notebook.
14:10 Exio          if compiling stuff in windows was easier...
14:10 Exio          :P
14:15 STHGOM        bye
14:25 Exio          aw damn
14:26 PilzAdam      *Adam
14:27 Kacey         hi all
14:27 Exio          PilzAdam: lol?
14:28 Exio          i said damn because if i implement the paste-support, then i'll need to rebase the cleanup that i did in https://github.com/EXio4/minetest/commit/648a6fce1bb609d35f92da7fdd4576ef191ce563 + "cleanup" the code i'm doing now :P
14:29 Exio          (and my rebase skills are zero)
14:31 PilzAdam      Exio, you learn how to rebase if you are a core deb
14:31 PilzAdam      or, you have to learn it (except RBA)
14:31 Exio          haha
14:31 Exio          lazyness :P
14:32 Exio          and i'm not a core dev!
14:34 * Kacey       gets lost in the source code for minetest
14:34 Exio          haha
14:57 arsdragonfly1 finished the kernel part of mod; going to sleep now
17:53 Calinou       \o/
17:53 VanessaE      hiall
17:53 Calinou       hi
17:58 Lyrositor     Hello.
18:03 VanessaE      Taoki: got any screenshots of your latest tweaks?
18:03 Taoki         Not any new ones
18:03 VanessaE      john_minetest: at ground level?
18:04 VanessaE      gimme a sec
18:05 VanessaE      now if I can remember where the hell the roller coaster IS :)
18:09 VanessaE      PilzAdam: are you aware that shift-clicking a cart generally just deletes the cart instead of picking it up?
18:11 PilzAdam      VanessaE, if creative_mode = 1 then it checks if the inventory has a cart
18:11 VanessaE      this isn't sufficient, you need to check for infinite stacks also
18:11 PilzAdam      generally all my mods expect endless items in inventory if creative_mode=1
18:11 PilzAdam      since thats what default does
18:12 PilzAdam      why do you even set that flag on your server?
18:12 VanessaE      because UI uses it to decide whether certain features work
18:16 Exio          what is infinite stacks?
18:16 PilzAdam      "you need to check for infinite stacks also" how would I do that in a non hacky way?
18:16 Exio          i mean, isn't that what the creative mode does?
18:16 PilzAdam      Exio, yes, thats what normal creative mode does
18:16 VanessaE      the only way I know to do it is to directly check for the existence of UI and any other mods that change the default creative-mode stack size.
18:17 VanessaE      there's a small (3 or 4 line) function in homedecor that does it, for example.
18:17 VanessaE      ok
18:37 VanessaE      PilzAdam: has the method to get into a minecart changed recently?
18:38 PilzAdam      no
18:39 VanessaE      having some glitchyness.
18:40 VanessaE      right-click doesn't put me into the cart if it's moving, it seems.
18:40 VanessaE      or if it does, I'm not being transported along with it.
18:41 VanessaE      in fact I think that's exactly it.  as soon as I try to get into a cart, I can no longer dig, build, place carts, nothin', and /spawn doesn't teleport me (even though it says it does)
18:42 VanessaE      I have to restart my client to get clear of it.
18:43 VanessaE      yep that's exactly it.
18:44 VanessaE      if I place a cart and right click, nothing happens.  if I then shift-click to delete the cart, the cart is deleted and I'm teleported to where the cart was and "dropped" onto the track.
18:45 PilzAdam      I cant reproduce this
18:46 PilzAdam      maybe your client is broken
18:46 VanessaE      go to my server then.
18:46 PilzAdam      my internet connection sucks lately
18:46 PilzAdam      no chance to play on your server
18:46 VanessaE      try anyway
18:47 Exio          :D
18:47 Exio          got the nick "hacker"
18:47 STHGOM        hi
18:49 STHGOM        how does technic's "forcefield generator work?"
18:50 STHGOM        *how does technic's"forcefield gererator" work
18:53 VanessaE      STHGOM: I think it needs MV or HV wire+power and it needs a mesecon signal to enable it
18:55 VanessaE      PilzAdam: from where I'm standing, you've only walked around a few meters from where that cart was placed, sometimes looking like you're "running", but never having actually rode the cart.
18:55 PilzAdam      Im rightclicking the cart like crazy, but it seems the server connection is too slow
18:55 VanessaE      nope.avi
18:56 VanessaE      if even I can't do it with a client on the same hardware as the server, it's busted. :P
19:00 VanessaE      PilzAdam: as you can see, the lag is low enough for you to do routine build/dig operations :)
19:00 PilzAdam      "low enough" = wait 1 minute after the server responds?
19:00 VanessaE      I'm watching where I stand and you're moving around all over the place, placing carts like mad
19:01 VanessaE      or you were anyway
19:01 PilzAdam      2 of the placed carts appeared in my client
19:01 PilzAdam      the others are still missing
19:01 PilzAdam      now they all appeared at once
19:03 VanessaE      PilzAdam: return the damn CTCP please.
19:04 PilzAdam      hehe
19:08 PilzAdam      VanessaE, can you reproduce it anywhere else than your server?
19:09 VanessaE      lemme try it in single player
19:10 VanessaE      doesn't happen there.
19:10 VanessaE      (same game mode, but I did just update to latest mintest git, lemme restart the server)
19:11 VanessaE      ok, it works on the server now.
19:11 VanessaE      I must have been behind by a commit or two or something.
19:12 STHGOM        crud
19:12 VanessaE      you still need to fix the carts' stacking :P
19:12 PilzAdam      you need to fix UI
19:12 VanessaE      UI works as intended
19:12 PilzAdam      carts too
19:12 VanessaE      you're abusing the creative-mode flag.
19:13 VanessaE      it says "creative mode", not "infinite stacks mode".
19:13 Exio          what does creative mode means
19:13 PilzAdam      then write "Not compatible with any mods by PilzAdam because I want to change the default behaviour of the creative mode" in the UI topic
19:13 VanessaE      I didn't write UI anyway, RBA did.
19:13 Exio          for me creative = infinite resources
19:13 PilzAdam      that explains a lot....
19:14 PilzAdam      Exio, the creative mode flag is defined how default uses it
19:14 VanessaE      PilzAdam: it takes like 4 lines of code to check if a stack is infinite, jeez
19:14 VanessaE      PilzAdam: yeah and default has redefined that at least once or twice already
19:14 PilzAdam      it requires 4 hacky and not generic ways
19:15 PilzAdam      I dont want to add 4 lines for each mod that exists out there
19:15 VanessaE      surely you remember when default creative had a stack size of 49
19:15 PilzAdam      yes, I changed it because it was stupid
19:15 Exio          PilzAdam: i know
19:16 VanessaE      49 was stupid, but when you changed it to infinite stacks you broke EVERY mod out there that has to do some kind of on-place detection.
19:16 Exio          what is wrong with breaking stuff for making stuff better?
19:17 VanessaE      Exio: because if you break enough stuff in the process, your "better" idea ceases to be better.
19:17 PilzAdam      VanessaE, there was no promise that item removal is an indicator of placement
19:17 STHGOM        who has ever used the sonic screw driver to open steel doors? :D
19:17 Exio          VanessaE: what do you suggest? keeping, still, the 49 blocks in the default game?
19:17 VanessaE      PilzAdam: then you need to add a flag to the engine/game/whatever that is distinct from creative mode that says whether or not infinite stacks are present.
19:18 hmmmm         he doesn't need to do anything if it wasn't stated in the documentation
19:18 VanessaE      Exio: I suggested initially that he just fix his busted code.
19:18 PilzAdam      VanessaE, no, I dont _need_ to do it
19:18 Exio          VanessaE: what does creative mode mean then
19:18 VanessaE      hmmmm: then how, pray tell, is a modder supposed to determine if an item should be taken from the stack (or added to it)?
19:19 VanessaE      what non-hacky way, to use PilzAdam's terms, is provided for that purpose?
19:19 PilzAdam      <VanessaE> hmmmm: then how, pray tell, is a modder supposed to determine if an item should be taken from the stack (or added to it)? <- by checking the creative_mode flag
19:19 VanessaE      PilzAdam: weren't you paying attention?  that's not sufficient.
19:19 PilzAdam      thats what the flag is intended to do
19:20 Exio          VanessaE: what would creative_mode mean?
19:20 VanessaE      PilzAdam: creative mode is NOT supposed to imply infinite stacks in a player's main inventory - it's supposed to imply infinitely available materials in the sidebar.
19:20 Exio          creative_mode
19:20 PilzAdam      VanessaE, see 0.3, its infinite stacks there too
19:20 PilzAdam      your definition of it is wrong
19:21 VanessaE      if my definition is wrong, then answer my question.
19:21 VanessaE      how, pray tell, is a modder supposed to determine if an item should be taken from the stack (or added to it)?
19:21 PilzAdam      by checking the creative_mode flag
19:21 VanessaE      nowhere in there ^^^ did I say "if the server is in creative mode".
19:23 VanessaE      so basically, a finite-stacks creative mode is hereby declared impossible and invalid then?
19:23 Exio          rm -rf creative and use your own?
19:23 PilzAdam      not impossible
19:24 VanessaE      PilzAdam: then how should a mod check for an infinite stack as distinct from having a creative-mode inventory?
19:24 PilzAdam      you could, e.g. use your own "creative" flag
19:24 Exio          i don't get it
19:24 PilzAdam      that is different from creative_mode
19:25 VanessaE      PilzAdam: "my own" flag would, by definition, be non-standard.
19:25 PilzAdam      yes
19:25 VanessaE      I'm asking for a standard way to check for that.
19:25 jin_xi        if the stack is infinite, why should joe the modder care if its taken from or added to?
19:26 PilzAdam      VanessaE, there is no standard way to get finite stacks in creative_mode, thus there will be no standard flag for that
19:26 Exio          how do you do a "if X && Y" in lua?
19:27 VanessaE      jin_xi: because the stack might be *finite* in which case mods that have to detect placement/clicks/etc have to manage adding/removing from the inventory.
19:27 PilzAdam      Exio, if x and y then
19:27 Exio          k
19:28 PilzAdam      Exio, the c++ standard says that "and" is valid too, but MSVC doesnt like it
19:28 Exio          i don't know C++
19:28 Exio          i only know C :P
19:29 VanessaE      PilzAdam: so you still have not answered my question adequately.  If there is no standard way to detect an infinite stack, then how exactly is a mod supposed to provide a finite stack in creative mode in a way that other mods can reliably detect?
19:29 Exio          VanessaE: why would a mod provide a finite stack, in creative_mode?
19:30 PilzAdam      VanessaE, there is none
19:30 PilzAdam      because it doesnt really make sense
19:30 svuorela      isn't 'and' and 'or' c99 ?
19:30 VanessaE      Exio: because that's how UI does it, and I've gotten used to the idea?
19:30 VanessaE      PilzAdam: it doesn't make sense *to you* maybe.
19:31 svuorela      btw, I has seen on the intertube that some people play 'skyblock' games or 'lonely island' games in that other non-free but similar game.  is there any way to do that easily in minetest ?
19:31 VanessaE      svuorela: there is a game mode for that for minetest.
19:31 VanessaE      it's called skyblock :P
19:32 Exio          svuorela: non-free but similar game? call it by its name! :P
19:32 svuorela      Exio: voldemort! :P
19:32 VanessaE      PilzAdam: then please just add a global flag into...somewhere... that declares stacks are infinite.
19:32 svuorela      VanessaE: oh. where are such gamemodes found ?
19:32 VanessaE      ONE LINE in some lua in builtin/ somewhere is all I ask
19:32 Exio          i'm pretty sure at least half of people here played or, at least saw videos about, MC :P
19:33 Exio          VanessaE: why builtin
19:33 VanessaE      svuorela: you have to check the forum for it, I'm not sure of the link
19:33 Exio          VanessaE: the infinite stacks are managed by the "creative" mod in default
19:33 VanessaE      Exio: because it would be available to everyone then, even those who don't use the default mod?
19:33 VanessaE      ok fine, add it to the creative mod, I don't care
19:33 VanessaE      just put it somewhere reasonable.
19:34 svuorela      VanessaE: ah. found its. thanks
19:35 PilzAdam      VanessaE, do you listen to me? that flag is there and its called creative_mode
19:35 VanessaE      PilzAdam: do you listen to ME!?  that flag IS NOT SUFFICIENT.
19:35 VanessaE      you're trying to cram three possible states into a boolean
19:36 Exio          it is a visual basic boolean
19:36 Exio          :D
19:36 VanessaE      what - true/false/null? :)
19:36 Calinou       tralse
19:36 Calinou       -q66
19:37 STHGOM        Zeg9: in your UFO mod you can recharge your UFO in the technic's tool workshop :D
19:38 VanessaE      PilzAdam: why do you have to be so G*d damn stubborn here?  I'm asking for a one line change, placed anywhere that makes sense, that just sets a G*d damned global variable.
19:39 Exio          VanessaE: what about splitting the creative_mode config into creative_inventory and creative_infstacks
19:39 Exio          and that with anything that'll get added to creative
19:40 Exio          s/'ll/will/
19:40 VanessaE      Exio: no.  That's overcomplicated.  All I'm asking for is a global variable I can look for.
19:40 hdastwb       Is there any way to make the "infinite stacks" infinite when used for crafting? I think that would be useful to test craft recipes and craft not-in-creative-mode stuff
19:40 hdastwb       Otherwise, the fixed stacks were very useful in that regard
19:40 VanessaE      no new code, no changes to the existing creative mod, nothing whatsoever except a global variable.
19:40 VanessaE      hdastwb:  and THAT is precisely why I hate "infinite" stacks in creative mode, because crafting works like SHIT with that.
19:41 Exio          i always use /giveme
19:41 VanessaE      Exio: let me guess...to get a NON-INFINITE STACK?
19:41 Exio          /giveme block -1
19:42 Exio          for getting more than one stack
19:42 VanessaE      same difference
19:42 Exio          maybe a way to duplicate items in the creative inv would be better
19:42 VanessaE      you get a numbered stack that you can use in places where the "infinite" stacks don't work.
19:42 VanessaE      Exio: UI has that - "refill"
19:42 PilzAdam      VanessaE, why cant you accept that infinite stacks are part of the default creative mode and fix UI accordingly?
19:43 Exio          but why would you need to craft something if you have the creative inv with all the blocks? :P
19:43 VanessaE      PilzAdam: because as I said before, I didn't write UI and because I don't give three shits about the default creative mode, which sucks ass
19:43 Exio          remove that creative default mod
19:43 Exio          and enjoy
19:43 VanessaE      Exio: UI uses the default creative mod for some functions I believe
19:44 VanessaE      PilzAdam: in the time you've spent arguing against the idea, you or anyone else could have already added the requested variable and committed it.
19:44 PilzAdam      and also in the same time someone can delete the minetest source on github
19:44 VanessaE      jesus H christ
19:44 Exio          or the earth could have exploded
19:45 PilzAdam      the "time" argument is not valid at all
19:45 VanessaE      *facepalm*
19:45 VanessaE      way to avoid the issue.
19:45 Exio          VanessaE: the only thing i see the UI doesn't do
19:45 Exio          is the hand-replacement
19:45 VanessaE      THIS IS WHY I don't bother to contribute to this game anymore.  It's like getting a fucking root canal to even get a one-line change made anymore.
19:46 VanessaE      it's YOUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.
19:46 Exio          VanessaE: does it have "creative" in the reqs?
19:46 VanessaE      this game is going to die if this shit doesn't stop.
19:46 PilzAdam      ok, lets step back and see what we have:
19:46 Exio          PilzAdam: revert infinite stacks
19:46 VanessaE      Exio: it depends on default creative I think, but as I said I did not write it so I don't know exactly how it works.
19:46 PilzAdam      we have the UI mod vs. carts mod, simple mobs, minetest_game and minetest 0.3
19:47 VanessaE      PilzAdam: stop.
19:47 VanessaE      just stop.
19:47 * PilzAdam    stops
19:47 Exio          haha
19:47 VanessaE      I'm not asking for anyone to redefine anything.  I'm not asking for anyone to code anything.  I'm not asking for anyone to change anything whatsoever about the default game.
19:48 VanessaE      DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT!?
19:49 VanessaE      s/default game/default creative mode or game/
19:50 VanessaE      no change whatsoever.  Nothing.  Zip.  nada.  Bupkis.   I just want a variable that mods can reliably expect so that MY CODE CAN ADAPT (and consequently, UI)
19:51 VanessaE      whether you fix your busted-ass carts is up to you.
19:51 VanessaE      you guys keep wondering why people are leaving this game.  THIS SHIT IS WHY.
19:52 VanessaE      it isn't the big changes that are the problem.  "It's the little stuff" as we say here.
19:55 sokomine      hm, yes, the little stuff unfortionately always is the problem. not only here
19:55 sokomine      hope you can sort out whatever the problem is
19:55 sokomine      (just looked into the channel)
19:56 Exio          the solution for the problem is rm -rf creative
19:56 Exio          and let use *other* creative mod
19:56 VanessaE      Exio: UI depends on default creative.
19:58 thexyz        uh oh, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L220
19:59 VanessaE      thexyz: that only applies to the default creative mod and you evidently didn't read the entire argument here.
19:59 thexyz        it says >unlimited inventory
20:00 thexyz        which probably means "infinite stacks mode"
20:00 thexyz        it says that not in default creative mod but in main minetest.conf example file
20:00 VanessaE      thexyz: which is precisely why I asked for a flag that's distinct and separate from that setting.  Something mods can read from somewhere internal to the game.
20:01 thexyz        that said, we expect inventory to be unlimited when in creative mode
20:01 VanessaE      thexyz: in *default* creative mode yeah
20:01 thexyz        nope
20:01 thexyz        you can't read or something?
20:01 Exio          thexyz: i don't like the new diamond ore, make a setting for disabling it
20:02 VanessaE      I'm talking about making it possible for other mods to make a creative mode that doesn't use infinite stacks, the way Unified Inventory has been doing for months now.
20:02 thexyz        VanessaE: it's in game's (minetest, not minetest_game) default minetest.conf example file
20:03 sokomine      my replacer mod takes one block out of the inventory and gives the old one back - as long as it's not in creative. for most other mods i wrote/use, it does not make much difference weather it is creative or not. why/how is it a problem here? and how could it be fixed?
20:03 VanessaE      thexyz: I'm talking about for mods and games that are based on minetest_game
20:03 thexyz        VanessaE: okay, so you do accept the fact that this setting applies to everything and acts as described in documentation (conf file)
20:03 hdastwb       I feel like there should be some way to redefine the player's inventory to copy out items rather than moving them, thus making "infinite stacks" actually infinite. . .
20:04 thexyz        I mean, games/mods which depend on this setting should act as described in documentation (.conf file)
20:04 VanessaE      thexyz: I accept that it applies to the default creative mode mod, since that's what precipitated the need for that setting.
20:05 sokomine      i've seen somewhere (shadowninjas server?) that digging one node was enough and gave you an infinite supply, while on vanessas server, it seems to be a limited stack. both may have their usage. if a function could be helpful for that, why not add it to builtin or minetest_game or creative? (whatever is most appropriate)
20:05 thexyz        VanessaE: in the end, you don't accept that it in fact applies to each and every mod run by Minetest since it's documented in Minetest's default config file, am I right?
20:06 VanessaE      thexyz: I accept only that it applies to a mod that I'M TRYING TO REPLACE.
20:06 thexyz        so even though it's documented in each and every Minetest installation you want it to act differently for your purposes
20:06 VanessaE      (replace locally that is)
20:06 hdastwb       it's not really documented in the .conf file; all that says is "unlimited inventory"
20:06 VanessaE      but you're completely ignoring me again
20:06 VanessaE      so fuck it
20:06 VanessaE      I give up.
20:07 sokomine      :-(
20:07 thexyz        you're free to change its behavior but don't ask others to do the same
20:07 VanessaE      FUCK!
20:07 VanessaE      LEARN TO FUCKING READ
20:07 VanessaE      here, I'll repeat it again
20:07 hdastwb       what we have there is a normal inventory that doesn't lose items when they are placed but does when they are transferred into other inventories
20:07 Exio          VanessaE: tell RBA to remove the dependency from creative
20:07 VanessaE      I'm asking for no code changes whatsoever.  Nothing.  Zip.  nada.  Bupkis.   I just want a variable that mods can reliably expect so that MY CODE CAN ADAPT (and consequently, UI)
20:07 Exio          and remove the default creative
20:07 Exio          and profit
20:08 thexyz        VanessaE: what variable do you want?
20:08 thexyz        what should it contain?
20:08 Exio          thexyz: a "infinite_stacks" variable in creative mode
20:08 thexyz        Exio: hm? but creative_mode already does that
20:09 VanessaE      thexyz: a global variable of the sort, "infinite_stacks = true" that a mod can later change if it wants to implement a different method, and which other mods can read from to determine if they should behave according to you guys or not.
20:09 VanessaE      but which DOESN'T AFFECT ANYTHING IN THE DEFAULT GAME.
20:10 Exio          thexyz: creative_mode only should mean the creative inventory, not the infinite stacks
20:10 Exio          (that is what VanessaE was saying)
20:10 thexyz        Exio: it's documented in .conf.example
20:10 thexyz        it says "Set to true to enable creative mode (unlimited inventory)"
20:10 Exio          thexyz: i just repeated VanessaE
20:10 VanessaE      thexyz: without a separate variable, it is impossible to check, in a non-hacky way to use PilzAdam's words, whether a stack is actually infinite in practice.
20:11 sokomine      hm. isn't the stack size (that normally seems to be 99) set somewhere? it could for infinite stacks be set to something else...like -1?
20:11 VanessaE      note the words "actually" and "in practice"
20:11 sokomine      maybe that variable (if it's available somewhere) could be useful
20:12 thexyz        VanessaE: the stack is infinite when creative_mode is true
20:12 VanessaE      thexyz: no, it isn't.
20:12 Exio          the stack_size is per node definition
20:12 VanessaE      some mods change that.
20:13 thexyz        VanessaE: those mods are wrong
20:13 thexyz        well, not wrong
20:13 VanessaE      thexyz: um, no.
20:13 thexyz        but they behave differently to how's described in minetest's .conf.example file
20:13 VanessaE      well of course they do
20:13 thexyz        then they should expect fun things to happen
20:14 sokomine      ah, ok. so the stack_size is only a...suggestion/default value for stacks that do not come with their own number
20:14 VanessaE      and they behave different because, maybe, the mod author (and his or her users) don't like how the mods they replace behave?
20:15 VanessaE      for example, in default creative, crafting is a pain in the ass because infinite stacks aren't truly infinite.  Having to drag-and-drop an item from the list to the inventory gets cumbersome, and lack of some functions like crafting guide or trash-all just makes it harder to use.
20:15 VanessaE      THAT is why I use UI on my server.
20:16 PilzAdam      why do you want to craft things in creative mode?
20:16 VanessaE      and if there were some officially-sanctioned setting other mods can reasonably expect to find and maybe change, then other mods can adapt to the non-infinite-stacks behavior in UI, for example.
20:17 VanessaE      PilzAdam: because sometimes it's faster to craft something than to find it in the creative list.
20:17 Exio          maybe if you didn't have 4000 nodes it would be faster
20:18 thexyz        okay, so in the end, we need infinite stacks that are really infinite
20:18 thexyz        right?
20:18 Calinou       "65535 is enough for anybody" --RMS
20:18 VanessaE      Exio: faster in the sense that I can place items into the craft grid faster than I can page through the inventory items (I have 19 pages in UI, which would be about 30 or 40 in default)
20:18 Calinou       idea: if a stack has 65535 items, make it infinite.?
20:18 VanessaE      and testing a craft recipe for a new mod is VERY cumbersome with "infinite" stacks
20:18 thexyz        Calinou: yes, that's what I thought
20:19 Calinou       and show some kind of symbol to show it's infinite
20:19 sokomine      hm, yes, creative is unfortionately something that's still not very...convenient to use in mt. maybe that's because there are so many nodes to chooos from that it's sometimes easier to craft the damn things than to search for them. until we find a way of creative that works well for all, i'm afraid there need to be more experiments
20:27 MinetestBot   GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Update documentation for get_mapgen_object 21a4adcd27 2013-06-29T13:24:32-07:00 http://git.io/HyBpzQ
20:27 VanessaE      thexyz: truly infinite stacks as applied to adding items to the crafting grid for testing stuff would probably help some people but it won't solve the root problem - the variation in gameplay that comes from allowing non-infinite stacks in that mode, which I have now on my server and which I think makes it unique in that regard.
20:28 thexyz        VanessaE: so, you're allowing non-infinite stacks in a game mode which is supposed to only have infinite stacks
20:28 thexyz        well.. that's..
20:28 VanessaE      thexyz: RBA is.  I didn't write UI.
20:28 VanessaE      and I LIKE IT this way.
20:28 thexyz        then blame him
20:28 thexyz        uh
20:28 thexyz        well, since you like it
20:29 sokomine      crafting things in creative is definitely something one needs. it's much easier to create every-day-like-stuff that way instead of searching through creative
20:29 VanessaE      surely UI isn't the only mod that changes how the inventory and crafting grid behave.
20:29 VanessaE      and the only way to get everyone who writes those mods to agree is to create an officially-sanctioned setting, even if that setting doesn't actually do anything in the default game.
20:30 thexyz        just like creative_mode, right?
20:30 VanessaE      no.
20:30 thexyz        why?
20:30 VanessaE      I'm not talking about adding a minetest.conf setting.
20:30 thexyz        it's "an officially-sanctioned setting"
20:30 thexyz        which one then?
20:31 thexyz        oh, infinite_stacks
20:31 VanessaE      I'm talking about adding a global variable to one of the system's lua mods, e.g. in default or creative or somewhere.
20:31 thexyz        so then you'll ignore it as well, right?
20:31 VanessaE      um
20:31 thexyz        because you need both infinite and finite stacks
20:32 thexyz        or what?
20:32 VanessaE      if infinite_stacks = false then assume they're finite like in "survival" mode and thus always be sure to add/remove items from the current stack when doing manual operations like on_place and the like.
20:32 thexyz        right
20:32 VanessaE      ...and thus the MODDER should be sure...
20:32 VanessaE      the way it works now,
20:33 thexyz        PilzAdam: please, rename creative_mode to infinite_stacks
20:33 thexyz        people want it.
20:33 VanessaE      you have to detect creative mode, AND you have to try to detect if the stacks are actually infinite by checking for the presence of the UI mod.
20:33 VanessaE      but that only checks for that one mod
20:33 VanessaE      what if there are other mods that behave that way?
20:33 thexyz        uh, then UI mod is broken
20:33 VanessaE      should a mod that needs to know this information have to check for the presence of all of those mods?
20:35 VanessaE      thexyz: you mean "then every mod that changes the size of an inventory stack is wrong".
20:35 VanessaE      s/wrong/broken/
20:36 thexyz        VanessaE: no, I mean what I said
20:36 thexyz        every mod that doesn't respect official docs is wrong
20:36 VanessaE      then nearly every mod out there is wrong
20:37 VanessaE      because nearly all of them do *something* that violates the official docs in some small way
20:38 thexyz        so be it
20:38 VanessaE      that's a stupid attitude and you know it.
20:38 thexyz        some are more wrong, some are less
20:38 thexyz        why?
20:38 VanessaE      what happened to creativity?
20:39 VanessaE      (as in, the art sense)
20:39 sokomine      se of not_in_creative_inventory. perhaps that might help? or does it imply other changes as well? the creative-mode does not strike me as that helpful as such
20:39 thexyz        just don't expect those mods to be compatible with each other
20:40 thexyz        anyway, I'm pretty sure that "because nearly all of them do *something* that violates the official docs in some small way" is correct
20:40 thexyz        meh
20:40 VanessaE      how many have to be "wrong" before you begin to realize that it's YOU (figuratively) that is wrong and not the mods?
20:40 thexyz        *incorrect
20:41 thexyz        VanessaE: please, examples
20:41 thexyz        I can say things too
20:41 VanessaE      I can't give examples without digging through hundreds of thousands of lines of code.
20:41 sokomine      thexyz: oh yes, most likely :-) apart from mods that only add some nodes. those might probably be ok (apart from not specifiying everything)
20:41 VanessaE      I'm making a guess statistically.
20:41 thexyz        of mods that treat creative_mode the other way
20:42 thexyz        VanessaE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
20:42 thexyz        don't tell me you don't know that :P
20:42 VanessaE      of course I know that.
20:43 VanessaE      I've only use UI for the inventory, but as for mods anything that has to do an on_place or on_dig has to manage the inventory.
20:43 thexyz        right, that's why we need truly infinite stacks
20:43 VanessaE      and ALL of those mods are broken if you use UI because default creative forces infinite stacks when they really aren't.
20:43 thexyz        wait, wait
20:43 thexyz        00:40  <    VanessaE> | how many have to be "wrong" before you begin to realize that it's YOU (figuratively) that is wrong and not the mods?
20:44 sokomine      hm :-) what we want is a good mode that can be used on creative servers. the main issue there is that you don't have to care about digging ressources (be they infinite or finite with a refill option), and that privs like fly are common. if you really want to get into creativity, worldedit comes along as well (for really large projects). even there, you'd do small details (which are very important) in rather conventional ways
20:44 thexyz        s/wrong/broken/g
20:44 VanessaE      [06-29 16:35] <VanessaE> s/wrong/broken/
20:45 VanessaE      oops, ignore that.
20:47 VanessaE      like I said, I give up.  you don't give a shit what anyone else thinks except you and the rest of the core devs.
20:50 sokomine      hmmmm: what i don't get: if minetest.get_content_id(name)  is used, what if name did not previously exist in that region? will it then be added? e.g. if you have a region which up until then hold only stone, and now you're adding a few sand node (just as an example!). will the default:sand then be given its own id? as far as i understand map chunks on database level, each chunk has its own list of id<->name pairs
20:50 hmmmm         'region'?
20:50 PilzAdam      sokomine, the id<->name pairs are per server
20:50 hmmmm         oh i see
20:51 hmmmm         no no no, this is not per block at all
20:51 hmmmm         these are *the* node IDs
20:51 sokomine      oh!
20:51 hmmmm         if the first node you register is default:dirt, for example, then that's going to have id 0
20:52 PilzAdam      e.g. in my nether mod I first create a table "ids" with all the node ids at the initial running, then I access this table in the on_generated() calls
20:52 sokomine      what happens if you add and delete mods? will the list be extended?
20:52 PilzAdam      the list gets created at each startup
20:52 hmmmm         huh??
20:52 sokomine      aah
20:52 hmmmm         hmm
20:53 PilzAdam      the only ones that are hardcoded are ignore=0 and air=1 AFAIK
20:53 hmmmm         i guess for people to actually appreciate what's going on here, they'd have to know more than i thought about minetest's internals
20:53 hmmmm         ignore is 127, air is 126, lol
20:53 PilzAdam      whys that?
20:53 hmmmm         does it really matter?
20:53 hmmmm         they're memorable numbers i guses
20:54 sokomine      maybe i was thinking too close to the map storage format. while not everything in there is clear to me, it seems so that it has a list of nodenames which represent ids - and those ids are later used to tell which node is at which location withhin the chunk. the scheme files seem very similar in structure
20:54 hmmmm         sokomine, that only has to do with mapblock serialization
20:55 sokomine      ok. your format looked very similar. i really hope there'll be more examples that make use of it soon :-)
20:55 PilzAdam      examples incoming:
20:55 sokomine      but if you tell me now that that list stays constant while the server runs it's fine
20:55 PilzAdam      https://github.com/PilzAdam/nether/commit/46f095f02a52ef0fa5146fb9b1a207d53ceadd15
20:57 PilzAdam      sokomine, as you can see the ids can be gotten after the register_node() calls of the needed nodes and they can be used until the server shuts down
20:58 hmmmm         again, pilzadam.... i'm not entirely sure why you need to pass the chunk x,z borders to calclighting... i figured it was originally that way so those border blocks would have correct lighting if a cave gets placed into them
20:59 hmmmm         i don't think people realize how little abstraction voxelmanip provides.. it's very close to the metal
20:59 sokomine      hm, yes, pilzadam. you're walking through the entire data field and replacing the ids of nodes you want to change through others. fine. is that the preferred method for this operation? (just to make sure)
21:01 PilzAdam      sokomine, yes, as far as I know thats the fastest way to use it in Lua (no get_content_id() calls or so in the loop); also the lighting and liquid updates are only needed if you place glowing/flowing nodes
21:02 hmmmm         lighting updates are required if you add light sources, remove nodes, or add nodes in such a way that the lighting would be changed
21:02 sokomine      i do need something similar for schematic files. with them, it might be easier to do it diffrently - to really change the name each id stands for. but that's a diffrent situation
21:02 hmmmm         if you merely replace blocks and they aren't light sources, then it is not necessary
21:02 sokomine      that sounds fine so far
21:03 sokomine      what i'll need there is find-the-ground, calculate-where-best-to-place-the-house, build-a-platform and things like that. those can be done with the data field. that's fine
21:05 PilzAdam      hmmmm, the lighting update (i.e. set_lighting() and update_lighting()) takes 0.02 to 0.01 seconds
21:05 hmmmm         ok.
21:06 Exio          PilzAdam: 20ms? what hardware?
21:06 PilzAdam      the whole thing takes 0.13 to 0.01 seconds
21:06 hmmmm         hmm, wondering if i should remove the pmin/pmax for lighting functions
21:06 sokomine      maybe placing the house/schematic directly into the data field could be an option as well. in a way, calls to get_node/set_node would be replaced by accessing the data field
21:07 PilzAdam      hmmmm, yea, its more consistent
21:07 Exio          if it isn't a 2005 underclocked laptop cpu, then it is slow
21:07 hmmmm         not only more consistent, but removes any dangerous possibilities
21:07 hmmmm         and then the end user gets less control too
21:08 hmmmm         anyway, this is going to break the code people have currently if i do remove it
21:08 hmmmm         at least if they use set_lighting()
21:09 PilzAdam      nobody except me uses it currently AFAIK
21:09 PilzAdam      maybe paramat does
21:09 PilzAdam      but it isnt in any stable release or so
21:09 hmmmm         somebody should really start making dev wiki pages on this interface
21:09 sokomine      no, it's still very early and most people still try to figure out how to use it. best time to do change if needed
21:10 sokomine      what about size of the voxelmanip area? any limitations?
21:11 hmmmm         it has to be greater than or equal to zero, and less than 65536 in each coordinate
21:11 Exio          the ram the server has, i guess?
21:11 Exio          hehe, i was right :P
21:11 PilzAdam      Exio, RAM + swap
21:11 sokomine      hm :-) maybe i ought to have asked about "practical limitations" then :-)
21:11 hmmmm         john_minetest, what do you think?
21:12 PilzAdam      sokomine, the area gets loaded and possibly generated
21:12 sokomine      so a region of 1024x256x1024 nodes might work well?
21:12 sokomine      hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
21:12 sokomine      if it gets generated, well, hmmm....
21:13 PilzAdam      you can use os:clock() to benchmark it
21:13 PilzAdam      thats the best way to find out
21:13 sokomine      maybe going up in the sky would then be a solution? or disable mapgen for that purpose of importing maps
21:15 Exio          disable mapgen = singlenode mapgen + air
21:16 sokomine      single node mapgen? how do i get that?
21:19 Exio          mg_name = singlenode in minetest.conf
21:20 PilzAdam      actually in map_meta.txt
21:23 Exio          well
21:23 Exio          you can with the new api that hmmmm added too
21:23 Exio          but i don't know it :P
21:24 hmmmm         sokomine, i use singlenode for importing maps
21:24 hmmmm         it's for whenever you effectively need a blank slate
21:25 sokomine      ah, fine. how do i get it to produce air? also, it might be helpful to place one node every x blocks as a reference
21:26 hmmmm         you need to place the node every x blocks using a mod
21:26 sokomine      ok
21:26 hmmmm         you have it produce air by simply doing nothing, it generates air only by default
21:26 sokomine      perfect
21:27 hmmmm         what are you importing?
21:30 MinetestBot   GIT: proller@github.com commited to minetest/minetest: Optimize liquid queue on generate map for liquid_finite 848c3fe51a 2013-06-29T14:29:21-07:00 http://git.io/yG18ZA
21:32 hdastwb       I believe WinSock and BSD sockets are quite similar; there can't be much difference in the code
22:59 STHGOM        bye
23:26 svuorela      does grass spawn by itself ?  (the thing that once in a while gives me wheat seeds)
23:27 PilzAdam      svuorela, grass grows near other grass
23:30 svuorela      PilzAdam: and if I have none ?
23:31 PilzAdam      walk arround and search it
23:31 * svuorela    is on a skyblock.
23:31 PilzAdam      then better dont walk arround ;-)
23:32 Exio          lol
23:33 svuorela      I can walk plenty around. Has made into two platforms with a rail preventig me to fall off
23:33 Exio          svuorela: what skyblock mod/game?
23:34 svuorela      Exio: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=6133
23:43 sokomine      that mapgen flag didn't work. i got a full world (a pretty nice one - with a beach with palm trees). not the desired empty map
23:44 PilzAdam      its not a flag
23:54 sokomine      how do i create a world with  mg_name = singlenode   ? putting it in map_meta.txt in the world folder (of a newly created, not yet visited world) did not work
23:56 Exio          mg_name = singlenode
23:56 Exio          :P
23:57 Exio          i meant in minetest.conf
23:57 * Exio        looks around
23:57 sokomine      aah