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IRC log for #minetest, 2013-06-29

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:15 khonkhortisan it looks odd that vines hanging from a tree would stop just at the surface of the water
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00:57 VanessaE PilzAdam: carts is up-to-date, yes.
00:57 VanessaE also, hi
01:05 kaeza hey V
01:11 VanessaE hey
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01:13 PilzAdam bye
01:25 kaeza http://dottech.org/113780/start-wandows-ngrmadly-image/
01:29 VanessaE kaeza: eek
01:36 VanessaE Taoki|away: that fog coloring is looking good
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02:14 khonkhortisan when the safe mode screen is corrupted...
02:16 VanessaE ...then you know you have a REAL problem :)
02:17 khonkhortisan I just fell through the top of a vertical wire
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02:25 MinetestBot GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Make generated water a shade darker to match up with older versions 9126823c7e 2013-06-28T19:22:44-07:00 http://git.io/PrDh6w
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02:29 STHGOM quick question: is it possible to make a map with only one node?
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02:33 ShadowNinja STHGOM: Singlenode mapgen.
02:36 VanessaE http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=97159#p97159    <--- since when is a question like this "off topic"?
02:37 STHGOM me no no
02:37 STHGOM *me no know
02:43 STHGOM <ShadowNinja> STHGOM: Singlenode mapgen. <--- how do you do that?
02:44 ShadowNinja STHGOM: There is a option in minetest.conf.
02:46 kaeza mg_name = singlenode
02:46 STHGOM there is only one minetest.conf right/
02:48 ShadowNinja By default, yes.
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02:49 STHGOM ok i got it: now i can fall for eternity
02:49 STHGOM :D
02:53 MinetestBot GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Add Lua VoxelArea methods: contains, containsp, containsi 0003fc8215 2013-06-28T19:52:13-07:00 http://git.io/pdrWmw
02:54 STHGOM http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=6247 <-- do you chat "//pos1", "//pos2", and "//set default:dirt"?
02:55 STHGOM nvm i got it
02:55 STHGOM cya
02:59 khonkhortisan *places travelnet
02:59 khonkhortisan *attempts digging travelnet
02:59 khonkhortisan "Error: Update failed! Resetting this box on the travelnet."
03:00 khonkhortisan "This travelnet box has not been configured yet. Please set it up first to claim it. Afterwards you can remove it because you are then the owner."
03:00 khonkhortisan *sets travelnet up as aoeu aoeu aoeu
03:00 VanessaE sokomine:  ^^^^^^^
03:00 khonkhortisan "Station 'aoeu' has been added to the network 'aoeu', which now consists of 1 station(s)."
03:00 khonkhortisan *digs travelnet
03:00 VanessaE that may be what the user on my server was running into earlier.
03:00 khonkhortisan "Station 'aou' has been REMOVED from the network 'aoeu'."
03:00 khonkhortisan *places travelnet
03:01 khonkhortisan *attempts setting up travelnet as aoeu aoeu aoeu
03:01 khonkhortisan "There is no tetwork named aoeu owned by aoeu. Aborting."
03:01 khonkhortisan *repeat setting up as asdf
03:01 khonkhortisan *dig travelnet
03:01 khonkhortisan There are now two extraneous travelnets aoeu and asdf.
03:02 khonkhortisan Just because I couldn't un-place a node.
03:03 khonkhortisan oh, if I skip the owner, I can add it to a previous extraneous network.
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03:07 sokomine yes, unconfigured travelnets are a bit problematic. configuring them and then digging helps
03:07 sokomine oh?
03:08 khonkhortisan but now that I've created and dug one with aoeu aoeu aoeu, I can't create another aoeu aoeu aoeu .
03:08 sokomine hm. that sounds like a bug
03:08 khonkhortisan ack! stuck in an elevator!
03:08 sokomine vanessas server?
03:08 khonkhortisan yes
03:08 VanessaE khonkhortisan: right click and press the " < > " button.
03:08 sokomine are the elevator doors closed? if so, klick on the open/close doors button
03:09 khonkhortisan oh
03:09 VanessaE sokomine: you might want to fix your labelling :)
03:09 khonkhortisan so that's what that's for - I thought it was just a reference to the current location
03:09 sokomine what's wrong with the labelling?
03:09 VanessaE see above :P
03:09 khonkhortisan Click on target to travel there: <>
03:09 sokomine no, it is also for opening doors. i tried to stick to the real sign that one finds on such elevators
03:10 khonkhortisan I don't want to click it because I'm already there
03:10 sokomine oh. hm. if i name it open/close doors (as i had done first), there would be no space left for the station name
03:10 VanessaE sokomine: move the open/close to a separate button and just leave the "current location" as showing the floor number or whatever
03:10 VanessaE after all, it's not like a real elevator changes the current floor button into "open/close" ;)
03:11 sokomine hmm. that might be an option. extra button sounds like a good idea
03:11 sokomine :-)
03:11 VanessaE you should try to model a real elevator keypad as closely as possible, visually, if you can
03:12 VanessaE with nice round image buttons :)
03:12 VanessaE anyway I'm out
03:12 VanessaE too tired to stay on
03:12 VanessaE night all
03:12 sokomine hm, yes. in that case, it might need the numeric pad at the left and the labels at the right. i'm afraid that would be more confusing...there's only limited space
03:12 kaeza night
03:12 sokomine sleep well
03:12 khonkhortisan hehe I have mesecon wire along the ceiling
03:12 sokomine oh yes, hm, image buttons. with an emergency button :-)
03:13 khonkhortisan hmm pistons rotate my wire
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04:00 Kacey hi guys i'm back
04:04 ShadowNinja thexyz: xpanes/fences have issues with being placed near unknown nodes...
04:15 khonkhortisan Many mods have trouble with that. We (Uberi) just fixed a bunch of that in mesecons
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04:26 Kacey anyone alive?
04:26 ShadowNinja Nope. ;-)
04:29 Kacey well then... BRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:30 Kacey ooh ShadowNinja, the farm was totally emoty when i checked on it
04:31 ShadowNinja :-(
04:31 Kacey empty*
04:31 Kacey but ooh well
04:45 * Kacey is going to finish skrim 100% by the end of the summer
04:46 Kacey i must go
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05:00 reactor .yeH
05:01 ShadowNinja reactor: ?
05:01 reactor ShadowNinja: ?
05:02 ShadowNinja <reactor> .yeH
05:02 ShadowNinja Hmmm.
05:03 ShadowNinja !rev .yeH
05:03 MinetestBot Hey.
05:03 reactor Oh god.
05:03 reactor Rather "eh, gerd".
05:14 reactor ShadowNinja: congratulations. It took you 65535 seconds to guess what it is.
05:15 reactor I would not rather draw conclusions from your testing.
05:15 ShadowNinja reactor: Wha?
05:15 reactor ^
05:17 ShadowNinja reactor: What do you mean? ".yeH" -> "Hey."?
05:18 reactor .haey oH
05:18 reactor s/oH/hO/
05:18 diemartin fail
05:18 diemartin trolling is a art. you fail at it
05:20 reactor I am not trolling.
05:21 reactor I'm merely saying what is                    appropriate according to this flowchart.
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06:16 diemartin https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/Captura%20de%20pantalla%20de%202013-06-29%2003%3A08%3A41.jpg
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06:52 reactor разуплотняэ
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07:02 VanessaE there.  that takes care of that issue.
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08:22 VanessaE bbl
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10:58 PilzAdam Hello everyone!
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11:04 Jordach nearly done with my damn model
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11:08 iqualfragile hi PilzAdam
11:13 * Jordach hates rendering blender films
11:13 Jordach 80 frames = 3 mijs
11:13 Jordach mins*
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11:16 * Jordach pokes Taoki
11:18 Jordach (fucking blender, it rendered .ogv as .ogg)
11:18 Jordach http://www.mediafire.com/download/onja219yosovvll/0000-0250.ogg
11:18 Jordach ^ MK2 model
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11:25 Exio Jordach: what cpu&gpu?
11:27 Jordach Intel Pentium 4 + nVidia GeForce 6200 AGP 8x @ 1gb
11:29 Exio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_%28software%29#Hardware_requirements
11:29 Exio and 2gb of ram?
11:30 Exio the cpu kills you :P
11:35 Taoki Jordach: Looks good
11:35 Jordach Taoki, i have learned more about blender
11:36 Jordach now the realtest(TM) is camera tracking
11:36 jin_xi anyone into dwarf fortress? nice interview here http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131954/interview_the_making_of_dwarf_.php?print=1
11:38 Jordach Taoki, you dont need lights in blender 2.67b
11:38 Jordach the materials tab has something called "shadeless" which removes all lighing and makes the model appear lit without lights
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11:52 Taoki sure, that fcan work to make a material unaffacted by lighting (if you ever need to in some circumstances)
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12:13 kaeza mornings
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12:45 Zeg9 Sorry
12:54 kaeza now this is weird https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415702667.jpg
12:55 kaeza up close: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415779420.jpg
12:56 arsdragonfly1 joined #minetest
12:57 arsdragonfly1 hello everyone
12:57 kaeza hi
12:57 arsdragonfly1 I'm writing a mod about an advanced market that works like stock markets in real life
12:58 kaeza nice
12:58 arsdragonfly1 thus there's no need to go to a shopping center & look for something everywhere
12:58 arsdragonfly1 now I need your opinion : do you prefer CLI or GUI?
12:59 arsdragonfly1 or both?
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13:00 kaeza either one is fine
13:00 kaeza hey Zeg9
13:00 Zeg9 Hello!
13:01 arsdragonfly1 hi
13:01 kaeza Zeg9, your UFOs have landed in my world
13:01 kaeza https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415702667.jpg
13:02 kaeza the aliens are making strange shapes in the sky
13:02 Zeg9 :o
13:02 Zeg9 what node is it?
13:03 Zeg9 is it a dungeon?
13:03 kaeza looks like a dungeon
13:03 kaeza https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_2415779420.jpg
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13:09 STHGOM hi
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13:12 STHGOM i need to change the sky texture on a certain world, how would i do that
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13:14 STHGOM hmm...
13:15 STHGOM i am making a space map with the singlenode mapgen...
13:15 STHGOM even though i just set the time to /time 8000 its still dark
13:16 STHGOM maybe i dont need a different texture for the sky :D
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13:34 Zeg9 STHGOM, RealBadAngel was working on skydomes for minetest, maybe try his branch
13:35 STHGOM i dont need it anymore but thank you
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13:37 STHGOM hehheh i found a nayan cat...
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13:50 lamefun hello
13:51 PenguinDad Hi!
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14:05 PilzAdam new win build: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4547
14:07 salamanderrake joined #minetest
14:08 PenguinDad My friend likes your builds, but in the future he gets a Linux-notebook.
14:10 Exio if compiling stuff in windows was easier...
14:10 Exio :P
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14:15 STHGOM bye
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14:25 Exio aw damn
14:26 PilzAdam *Adam
14:27 Kacey hi all
14:27 Exio PilzAdam: lol?
14:28 Exio i said damn because if i implement the paste-support, then i'll need to rebase the cleanup that i did in https://github.com/EXio4/minetest/commit/648a6fce1bb609d35f92da7fdd4576ef191ce563 + "cleanup" the code i'm doing now :P
14:29 Exio (and my rebase skills are zero)
14:31 PilzAdam Exio, you learn how to rebase if you are a core deb
14:31 PilzAdam or, you have to learn it (except RBA)
14:31 Exio haha
14:31 Exio lazyness :P
14:32 Final joined #minetest
14:32 Exio and i'm not a core dev!
14:34 * Kacey gets lost in the source code for minetest
14:34 Exio haha
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14:57 arsdragonfly1 finished the kernel part of mod; going to sleep now
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17:53 Calinou \o/
17:53 VanessaE hiall
17:53 Calinou hi
17:56 john_minetest hi
17:58 Lyrositor Hello.
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18:03 VanessaE Taoki: got any screenshots of your latest tweaks?
18:03 Taoki Not any new ones
18:03 john_minetest VanessaE: I want to build a station directly at the rollercoaster.
18:03 VanessaE john_minetest: at ground level?
18:04 VanessaE gimme a sec
18:04 john_minetest the track is at the level of the rollercoaster
18:05 VanessaE now if I can remember where the hell the roller coaster IS :)
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18:09 VanessaE PilzAdam: are you aware that shift-clicking a cart generally just deletes the cart instead of picking it up?
18:11 PilzAdam VanessaE, if creative_mode = 1 then it checks if the inventory has a cart
18:11 VanessaE this isn't sufficient, you need to check for infinite stacks also
18:11 PilzAdam generally all my mods expect endless items in inventory if creative_mode=1
18:11 PilzAdam since thats what default does
18:12 PilzAdam why do you even set that flag on your server?
18:12 VanessaE because UI uses it to decide whether certain features work
18:16 Exio what is infinite stacks?
18:16 PilzAdam "you need to check for infinite stacks also" how would I do that in a non hacky way?
18:16 Exio i mean, isn't that what the creative mode does?
18:16 PilzAdam Exio, yes, thats what normal creative mode does
18:16 VanessaE the only way I know to do it is to directly check for the existence of UI and any other mods that change the default creative-mode stack size.
18:17 VanessaE there's a small (3 or 4 line) function in homedecor that does it, for example.
18:17 john_minetest VanessaE: Thx, I finished the track
18:17 VanessaE ok
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18:37 VanessaE PilzAdam: has the method to get into a minecart changed recently?
18:38 PilzAdam no
18:39 VanessaE having some glitchyness.
18:40 VanessaE right-click doesn't put me into the cart if it's moving, it seems.
18:40 VanessaE or if it does, I'm not being transported along with it.
18:41 VanessaE in fact I think that's exactly it.  as soon as I try to get into a cart, I can no longer dig, build, place carts, nothin', and /spawn doesn't teleport me (even though it says it does)
18:42 VanessaE I have to restart my client to get clear of it.
18:43 VanessaE yep that's exactly it.
18:44 VanessaE if I place a cart and right click, nothing happens.  if I then shift-click to delete the cart, the cart is deleted and I'm teleported to where the cart was and "dropped" onto the track.
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18:45 PilzAdam I cant reproduce this
18:46 PilzAdam maybe your client is broken
18:46 VanessaE go to my server then.
18:46 PilzAdam my internet connection sucks lately
18:46 PilzAdam no chance to play on your server
18:46 VanessaE try anyway
18:47 Exio :D
18:47 Exio got the nick "hacker"
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18:47 STHGOM hi
18:49 STHGOM how does technic's "forcefield generator work?"
18:50 STHGOM *how does technic's"forcefield gererator" work
18:53 VanessaE STHGOM: I think it needs MV or HV wire+power and it needs a mesecon signal to enable it
18:55 VanessaE PilzAdam: from where I'm standing, you've only walked around a few meters from where that cart was placed, sometimes looking like you're "running", but never having actually rode the cart.
18:55 PilzAdam Im rightclicking the cart like crazy, but it seems the server connection is too slow
18:55 VanessaE nope.avi
18:56 VanessaE if even I can't do it with a client on the same hardware as the server, it's busted. :P
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19:00 VanessaE PilzAdam: as you can see, the lag is low enough for you to do routine build/dig operations :)
19:00 PilzAdam "low enough" = wait 1 minute after the server responds?
19:00 VanessaE I'm watching where I stand and you're moving around all over the place, placing carts like mad
19:01 VanessaE or you were anyway
19:01 PilzAdam 2 of the placed carts appeared in my client
19:01 PilzAdam the others are still missing
19:01 PilzAdam now they all appeared at once
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19:03 VanessaE PilzAdam: return the damn CTCP please.
19:04 PilzAdam hehe
19:08 PilzAdam VanessaE, can you reproduce it anywhere else than your server?
19:09 VanessaE lemme try it in single player
19:10 VanessaE doesn't happen there.
19:10 VanessaE (same game mode, but I did just update to latest mintest git, lemme restart the server)
19:11 VanessaE ok, it works on the server now.
19:11 VanessaE I must have been behind by a commit or two or something.
19:12 STHGOM crud
19:12 VanessaE you still need to fix the carts' stacking :P
19:12 PilzAdam you need to fix UI
19:12 VanessaE UI works as intended
19:12 PilzAdam carts too
19:12 VanessaE you're abusing the creative-mode flag.
19:13 VanessaE it says "creative mode", not "infinite stacks mode".
19:13 Exio what does creative mode means
19:13 PilzAdam then write "Not compatible with any mods by PilzAdam because I want to change the default behaviour of the creative mode" in the UI topic
19:13 VanessaE I didn't write UI anyway, RBA did.
19:13 Exio for me creative = infinite resources
19:13 PilzAdam that explains a lot....
19:14 PilzAdam Exio, the creative mode flag is defined how default uses it
19:14 VanessaE PilzAdam: it takes like 4 lines of code to check if a stack is infinite, jeez
19:14 VanessaE PilzAdam: yeah and default has redefined that at least once or twice already
19:14 PilzAdam it requires 4 hacky and not generic ways
19:15 PilzAdam I dont want to add 4 lines for each mod that exists out there
19:15 VanessaE surely you remember when default creative had a stack size of 49
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19:15 PilzAdam yes, I changed it because it was stupid
19:15 Exio PilzAdam: i know
19:16 VanessaE 49 was stupid, but when you changed it to infinite stacks you broke EVERY mod out there that has to do some kind of on-place detection.
19:16 Exio what is wrong with breaking stuff for making stuff better?
19:17 VanessaE Exio: because if you break enough stuff in the process, your "better" idea ceases to be better.
19:17 PilzAdam VanessaE, there was no promise that item removal is an indicator of placement
19:17 STHGOM who has ever used the sonic screw driver to open steel doors? :D
19:17 Exio VanessaE: what do you suggest? keeping, still, the 49 blocks in the default game?
19:17 VanessaE PilzAdam: then you need to add a flag to the engine/game/whatever that is distinct from creative mode that says whether or not infinite stacks are present.
19:18 hmmmm he doesn't need to do anything if it wasn't stated in the documentation
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19:18 VanessaE Exio: I suggested initially that he just fix his busted code.
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19:18 PilzAdam VanessaE, no, I dont _need_ to do it
19:18 Exio VanessaE: what does creative mode mean then
19:18 VanessaE hmmmm: then how, pray tell, is a modder supposed to determine if an item should be taken from the stack (or added to it)?
19:19 VanessaE what non-hacky way, to use PilzAdam's terms, is provided for that purpose?
19:19 PilzAdam <VanessaE> hmmmm: then how, pray tell, is a modder supposed to determine if an item should be taken from the stack (or added to it)? <- by checking the creative_mode flag
19:19 VanessaE PilzAdam: weren't you paying attention?  that's not sufficient.
19:19 PilzAdam thats what the flag is intended to do
19:20 Exio VanessaE: what would creative_mode mean?
19:20 VanessaE PilzAdam: creative mode is NOT supposed to imply infinite stacks in a player's main inventory - it's supposed to imply infinitely available materials in the sidebar.
19:20 Exio creative_mode
19:20 PilzAdam VanessaE, see 0.3, its infinite stacks there too
19:20 PilzAdam your definition of it is wrong
19:21 VanessaE if my definition is wrong, then answer my question.
19:21 VanessaE how, pray tell, is a modder supposed to determine if an item should be taken from the stack (or added to it)?
19:21 PilzAdam by checking the creative_mode flag
19:21 VanessaE nowhere in there ^^^ did I say "if the server is in creative mode".
19:23 VanessaE so basically, a finite-stacks creative mode is hereby declared impossible and invalid then?
19:23 Exio rm -rf creative and use your own?
19:23 PilzAdam not impossible
19:24 VanessaE PilzAdam: then how should a mod check for an infinite stack as distinct from having a creative-mode inventory?
19:24 PilzAdam you could, e.g. use your own "creative" flag
19:24 Exio i don't get it
19:24 PilzAdam that is different from creative_mode
19:25 VanessaE PilzAdam: "my own" flag would, by definition, be non-standard.
19:25 PilzAdam yes
19:25 VanessaE I'm asking for a standard way to check for that.
19:25 jin_xi if the stack is infinite, why should joe the modder care if its taken from or added to?
19:26 PilzAdam VanessaE, there is no standard way to get finite stacks in creative_mode, thus there will be no standard flag for that
19:26 Exio how do you do a "if X && Y" in lua?
19:27 VanessaE jin_xi: because the stack might be *finite* in which case mods that have to detect placement/clicks/etc have to manage adding/removing from the inventory.
19:27 PilzAdam Exio, if x and y then
19:27 Exio k
19:28 PilzAdam Exio, the c++ standard says that "and" is valid too, but MSVC doesnt like it
19:28 Exio i don't know C++
19:28 Exio i only know C :P
19:29 VanessaE PilzAdam: so you still have not answered my question adequately.  If there is no standard way to detect an infinite stack, then how exactly is a mod supposed to provide a finite stack in creative mode in a way that other mods can reliably detect?
19:29 Exio VanessaE: why would a mod provide a finite stack, in creative_mode?
19:30 PilzAdam VanessaE, there is none
19:30 PilzAdam because it doesnt really make sense
19:30 svuorela isn't 'and' and 'or' c99 ?
19:30 VanessaE Exio: because that's how UI does it, and I've gotten used to the idea?
19:30 VanessaE PilzAdam: it doesn't make sense *to you* maybe.
19:31 svuorela btw, I has seen on the intertube that some people play 'skyblock' games or 'lonely island' games in that other non-free but similar game.  is there any way to do that easily in minetest ?
19:31 VanessaE svuorela: there is a game mode for that for minetest.
19:31 VanessaE it's called skyblock :P
19:32 Exio svuorela: non-free but similar game? call it by its name! :P
19:32 svuorela Exio: voldemort! :P
19:32 VanessaE PilzAdam: then please just add a global flag into...somewhere... that declares stacks are infinite.
19:32 svuorela VanessaE: oh. where are such gamemodes found ?
19:32 VanessaE ONE LINE in some lua in builtin/ somewhere is all I ask
19:32 Exio i'm pretty sure at least half of people here played or, at least saw videos about, MC :P
19:33 Exio VanessaE: why builtin
19:33 VanessaE svuorela: you have to check the forum for it, I'm not sure of the link
19:33 Exio VanessaE: the infinite stacks are managed by the "creative" mod in default
19:33 VanessaE Exio: because it would be available to everyone then, even those who don't use the default mod?
19:33 VanessaE ok fine, add it to the creative mod, I don't care
19:33 VanessaE just put it somewhere reasonable.
19:34 svuorela VanessaE: ah. found its. thanks
19:35 PilzAdam VanessaE, do you listen to me? that flag is there and its called creative_mode
19:35 VanessaE PilzAdam: do you listen to ME!?  that flag IS NOT SUFFICIENT.
19:35 VanessaE you're trying to cram three possible states into a boolean
19:36 Exio it is a visual basic boolean
19:36 Exio :D
19:36 VanessaE what - true/false/null? :)
19:36 Calinou tralse
19:36 Calinou -q66
19:37 STHGOM Zeg9: in your UFO mod you can recharge your UFO in the technic's tool workshop :D
19:38 VanessaE PilzAdam: why do you have to be so G*d damn stubborn here?  I'm asking for a one line change, placed anywhere that makes sense, that just sets a G*d damned global variable.
19:39 Exio VanessaE: what about splitting the creative_mode config into creative_inventory and creative_infstacks
19:39 Exio and that with anything that'll get added to creative
19:40 Exio s/'ll/will/
19:40 VanessaE Exio: no.  That's overcomplicated.  All I'm asking for is a global variable I can look for.
19:40 hdastwb Is there any way to make the "infinite stacks" infinite when used for crafting? I think that would be useful to test craft recipes and craft not-in-creative-mode stuff
19:40 hdastwb Otherwise, the fixed stacks were very useful in that regard
19:40 VanessaE no new code, no changes to the existing creative mod, nothing whatsoever except a global variable.
19:40 VanessaE hdastwb:  and THAT is precisely why I hate "infinite" stacks in creative mode, because crafting works like SHIT with that.
19:41 Exio i always use /giveme
19:41 VanessaE Exio: let me guess...to get a NON-INFINITE STACK?
19:41 Exio /giveme block -1
19:42 Exio for getting more than one stack
19:42 VanessaE same difference
19:42 Exio maybe a way to duplicate items in the creative inv would be better
19:42 VanessaE you get a numbered stack that you can use in places where the "infinite" stacks don't work.
19:42 VanessaE Exio: UI has that - "refill"
19:42 PilzAdam VanessaE, why cant you accept that infinite stacks are part of the default creative mode and fix UI accordingly?
19:43 Exio but why would you need to craft something if you have the creative inv with all the blocks? :P
19:43 VanessaE PilzAdam: because as I said before, I didn't write UI and because I don't give three shits about the default creative mode, which sucks ass
19:43 Exio remove that creative default mod
19:43 Exio and enjoy
19:43 VanessaE Exio: UI uses the default creative mod for some functions I believe
19:44 VanessaE PilzAdam: in the time you've spent arguing against the idea, you or anyone else could have already added the requested variable and committed it.
19:44 PilzAdam and also in the same time someone can delete the minetest source on github
19:44 VanessaE jesus H christ
19:44 Exio or the earth could have exploded
19:45 PilzAdam the "time" argument is not valid at all
19:45 VanessaE *facepalm*
19:45 VanessaE way to avoid the issue.
19:45 Exio VanessaE: the only thing i see the UI doesn't do
19:45 Exio is the hand-replacement
19:45 VanessaE THIS IS WHY I don't bother to contribute to this game anymore.  It's like getting a fucking root canal to even get a one-line change made anymore.
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19:46 VanessaE it's YOUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.
19:46 Exio VanessaE: does it have "creative" in the reqs?
19:46 VanessaE this game is going to die if this shit doesn't stop.
19:46 PilzAdam ok, lets step back and see what we have:
19:46 Exio PilzAdam: revert infinite stacks
19:46 VanessaE Exio: it depends on default creative I think, but as I said I did not write it so I don't know exactly how it works.
19:46 PilzAdam we have the UI mod vs. carts mod, simple mobs, minetest_game and minetest 0.3
19:47 VanessaE PilzAdam: stop.
19:47 VanessaE just stop.
19:47 * PilzAdam stops
19:47 Exio haha
19:47 VanessaE I'm not asking for anyone to redefine anything.  I'm not asking for anyone to code anything.  I'm not asking for anyone to change anything whatsoever about the default game.
19:48 VanessaE DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT!?
19:49 VanessaE s/default game/default creative mode or game/
19:50 VanessaE no change whatsoever.  Nothing.  Zip.  nada.  Bupkis.   I just want a variable that mods can reliably expect so that MY CODE CAN ADAPT (and consequently, UI)
19:51 VanessaE whether you fix your busted-ass carts is up to you.
19:51 VanessaE you guys keep wondering why people are leaving this game.  THIS SHIT IS WHY.
19:52 VanessaE it isn't the big changes that are the problem.  "It's the little stuff" as we say here.
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19:55 sokomine hm, yes, the little stuff unfortionately always is the problem. not only here
19:55 sokomine hope you can sort out whatever the problem is
19:55 sokomine (just looked into the channel)
19:56 Exio the solution for the problem is rm -rf creative
19:56 Exio and let use *other* creative mod
19:56 VanessaE Exio: UI depends on default creative.
19:58 thexyz uh oh, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L220
19:59 VanessaE thexyz: that only applies to the default creative mod and you evidently didn't read the entire argument here.
19:59 thexyz it says >unlimited inventory
20:00 thexyz which probably means "infinite stacks mode"
20:00 thexyz it says that not in default creative mod but in main minetest.conf example file
20:00 VanessaE thexyz: which is precisely why I asked for a flag that's distinct and separate from that setting.  Something mods can read from somewhere internal to the game.
20:01 thexyz that said, we expect inventory to be unlimited when in creative mode
20:01 VanessaE thexyz: in *default* creative mode yeah
20:01 thexyz nope
20:01 thexyz you can't read or something?
20:01 Exio thexyz: i don't like the new diamond ore, make a setting for disabling it
20:02 VanessaE I'm talking about making it possible for other mods to make a creative mode that doesn't use infinite stacks, the way Unified Inventory has been doing for months now.
20:02 thexyz VanessaE: it's in game's (minetest, not minetest_game) default minetest.conf example file
20:03 sokomine my replacer mod takes one block out of the inventory and gives the old one back - as long as it's not in creative. for most other mods i wrote/use, it does not make much difference weather it is creative or not. why/how is it a problem here? and how could it be fixed?
20:03 VanessaE thexyz: I'm talking about for mods and games that are based on minetest_game
20:03 thexyz VanessaE: okay, so you do accept the fact that this setting applies to everything and acts as described in documentation (conf file)
20:03 hdastwb I feel like there should be some way to redefine the player's inventory to copy out items rather than moving them, thus making "infinite stacks" actually infinite. . .
20:04 thexyz I mean, games/mods which depend on this setting should act as described in documentation (.conf file)
20:04 VanessaE thexyz: I accept that it applies to the default creative mode mod, since that's what precipitated the need for that setting.
20:05 sokomine i've seen somewhere (shadowninjas server?) that digging one node was enough and gave you an infinite supply, while on vanessas server, it seems to be a limited stack. both may have their usage. if a function could be helpful for that, why not add it to builtin or minetest_game or creative? (whatever is most appropriate)
20:05 thexyz VanessaE: in the end, you don't accept that it in fact applies to each and every mod run by Minetest since it's documented in Minetest's default config file, am I right?
20:06 VanessaE thexyz: I accept only that it applies to a mod that I'M TRYING TO REPLACE.
20:06 thexyz so even though it's documented in each and every Minetest installation you want it to act differently for your purposes
20:06 VanessaE (replace locally that is)
20:06 hdastwb it's not really documented in the .conf file; all that says is "unlimited inventory"
20:06 VanessaE but you're completely ignoring me again
20:06 VanessaE so fuck it
20:06 VanessaE I give up.
20:07 sokomine :-(
20:07 thexyz you're free to change its behavior but don't ask others to do the same
20:07 VanessaE FUCK!
20:07 VanessaE LEARN TO FUCKING READ
20:07 VanessaE here, I'll repeat it again
20:07 hdastwb what we have there is a normal inventory that doesn't lose items when they are placed but does when they are transferred into other inventories
20:07 Exio VanessaE: tell RBA to remove the dependency from creative
20:07 VanessaE I'm asking for no code changes whatsoever.  Nothing.  Zip.  nada.  Bupkis.   I just want a variable that mods can reliably expect so that MY CODE CAN ADAPT (and consequently, UI)
20:07 Exio and remove the default creative
20:07 Exio and profit
20:08 thexyz VanessaE: what variable do you want?
20:08 thexyz what should it contain?
20:08 Exio thexyz: a "infinite_stacks" variable in creative mode
20:08 thexyz Exio: hm? but creative_mode already does that
20:09 VanessaE thexyz: a global variable of the sort, "infinite_stacks = true" that a mod can later change if it wants to implement a different method, and which other mods can read from to determine if they should behave according to you guys or not.
20:09 VanessaE but which DOESN'T AFFECT ANYTHING IN THE DEFAULT GAME.
20:10 Exio thexyz: creative_mode only should mean the creative inventory, not the infinite stacks
20:10 Exio (that is what VanessaE was saying)
20:10 thexyz Exio: it's documented in .conf.example
20:10 thexyz it says "Set to true to enable creative mode (unlimited inventory)"
20:10 Exio thexyz: i just repeated VanessaE
20:10 VanessaE thexyz: without a separate variable, it is impossible to check, in a non-hacky way to use PilzAdam's words, whether a stack is actually infinite in practice.
20:11 sokomine hm. isn't the stack size (that normally seems to be 99) set somewhere? it could for infinite stacks be set to something else...like -1?
20:11 VanessaE note the words "actually" and "in practice"
20:11 sokomine maybe that variable (if it's available somewhere) could be useful
20:12 thexyz VanessaE: the stack is infinite when creative_mode is true
20:12 VanessaE thexyz: no, it isn't.
20:12 Exio the stack_size is per node definition
20:12 VanessaE some mods change that.
20:13 thexyz VanessaE: those mods are wrong
20:13 thexyz well, not wrong
20:13 VanessaE thexyz: um, no.
20:13 thexyz but they behave differently to how's described in minetest's .conf.example file
20:13 VanessaE well of course they do
20:13 thexyz then they should expect fun things to happen
20:14 sokomine ah, ok. so the stack_size is only a...suggestion/default value for stacks that do not come with their own number
20:14 VanessaE and they behave different because, maybe, the mod author (and his or her users) don't like how the mods they replace behave?
20:15 VanessaE for example, in default creative, crafting is a pain in the ass because infinite stacks aren't truly infinite.  Having to drag-and-drop an item from the list to the inventory gets cumbersome, and lack of some functions like crafting guide or trash-all just makes it harder to use.
20:15 VanessaE THAT is why I use UI on my server.
20:16 PilzAdam why do you want to craft things in creative mode?
20:16 VanessaE and if there were some officially-sanctioned setting other mods can reasonably expect to find and maybe change, then other mods can adapt to the non-infinite-stacks behavior in UI, for example.
20:17 VanessaE PilzAdam: because sometimes it's faster to craft something than to find it in the creative list.
20:17 Exio maybe if you didn't have 4000 nodes it would be faster
20:18 thexyz okay, so in the end, we need infinite stacks that are really infinite
20:18 thexyz right?
20:18 Calinou "65535 is enough for anybody" --RMS
20:18 VanessaE Exio: faster in the sense that I can place items into the craft grid faster than I can page through the inventory items (I have 19 pages in UI, which would be about 30 or 40 in default)
20:18 Calinou idea: if a stack has 65535 items, make it infinite.?
20:18 VanessaE and testing a craft recipe for a new mod is VERY cumbersome with "infinite" stacks
20:18 thexyz Calinou: yes, that's what I thought
20:19 Calinou and show some kind of symbol to show it's infinite
20:19 sokomine hm, yes, creative is unfortionately something that's still not very...convenient to use in mt. maybe that's because there are so many nodes to chooos from that it's sometimes easier to craft the damn things than to search for them. until we find a way of creative that works well for all, i'm afraid there need to be more experiments
20:20 john_minetest Lol, there should be a helium balloon mod. Per balloon stack_size++ for every inventory slot.
20:27 MinetestBot GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Update documentation for get_mapgen_object 21a4adcd27 2013-06-29T13:24:32-07:00 http://git.io/HyBpzQ
20:27 VanessaE thexyz: truly infinite stacks as applied to adding items to the crafting grid for testing stuff would probably help some people but it won't solve the root problem - the variation in gameplay that comes from allowing non-infinite stacks in that mode, which I have now on my server and which I think makes it unique in that regard.
20:28 thexyz VanessaE: so, you're allowing non-infinite stacks in a game mode which is supposed to only have infinite stacks
20:28 thexyz well.. that's..
20:28 VanessaE thexyz: RBA is.  I didn't write UI.
20:28 VanessaE and I LIKE IT this way.
20:28 thexyz then blame him
20:28 thexyz uh
20:28 thexyz well, since you like it
20:29 sokomine crafting things in creative is definitely something one needs. it's much easier to create every-day-like-stuff that way instead of searching through creative
20:29 VanessaE surely UI isn't the only mod that changes how the inventory and crafting grid behave.
20:29 VanessaE and the only way to get everyone who writes those mods to agree is to create an officially-sanctioned setting, even if that setting doesn't actually do anything in the default game.
20:30 thexyz just like creative_mode, right?
20:30 VanessaE no.
20:30 thexyz why?
20:30 VanessaE I'm not talking about adding a minetest.conf setting.
20:30 thexyz it's "an officially-sanctioned setting"
20:30 thexyz which one then?
20:31 thexyz oh, infinite_stacks
20:31 VanessaE I'm talking about adding a global variable to one of the system's lua mods, e.g. in default or creative or somewhere.
20:31 thexyz so then you'll ignore it as well, right?
20:31 VanessaE um
20:31 thexyz because you need both infinite and finite stacks
20:32 thexyz or what?
20:32 VanessaE if infinite_stacks = false then assume they're finite like in "survival" mode and thus always be sure to add/remove items from the current stack when doing manual operations like on_place and the like.
20:32 thexyz right
20:32 VanessaE ...and thus the MODDER should be sure...
20:32 VanessaE the way it works now,
20:33 thexyz PilzAdam: please, rename creative_mode to infinite_stacks
20:33 thexyz people want it.
20:33 VanessaE you have to detect creative mode, AND you have to try to detect if the stacks are actually infinite by checking for the presence of the UI mod.
20:33 VanessaE but that only checks for that one mod
20:33 VanessaE what if there are other mods that behave that way?
20:33 thexyz uh, then UI mod is broken
20:33 VanessaE should a mod that needs to know this information have to check for the presence of all of those mods?
20:35 VanessaE thexyz: you mean "then every mod that changes the size of an inventory stack is wrong".
20:35 VanessaE s/wrong/broken/
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20:36 thexyz VanessaE: no, I mean what I said
20:36 thexyz every mod that doesn't respect official docs is wrong
20:36 VanessaE then nearly every mod out there is wrong
20:37 VanessaE because nearly all of them do *something* that violates the official docs in some small way
20:38 thexyz so be it
20:38 VanessaE that's a stupid attitude and you know it.
20:38 thexyz some are more wrong, some are less
20:38 thexyz why?
20:38 VanessaE what happened to creativity?
20:39 VanessaE (as in, the art sense)
20:39 sokomine se of not_in_creative_inventory. perhaps that might help? or does it imply other changes as well? the creative-mode does not strike me as that helpful as such
20:39 thexyz just don't expect those mods to be compatible with each other
20:40 thexyz anyway, I'm pretty sure that "because nearly all of them do *something* that violates the official docs in some small way" is correct
20:40 thexyz meh
20:40 VanessaE how many have to be "wrong" before you begin to realize that it's YOU (figuratively) that is wrong and not the mods?
20:40 thexyz *incorrect
20:41 thexyz VanessaE: please, examples
20:41 thexyz I can say things too
20:41 VanessaE I can't give examples without digging through hundreds of thousands of lines of code.
20:41 sokomine thexyz: oh yes, most likely :-) apart from mods that only add some nodes. those might probably be ok (apart from not specifiying everything)
20:41 VanessaE I'm making a guess statistically.
20:41 thexyz of mods that treat creative_mode the other way
20:42 thexyz VanessaE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
20:42 thexyz don't tell me you don't know that :P
20:42 VanessaE of course I know that.
20:43 VanessaE I've only use UI for the inventory, but as for mods anything that has to do an on_place or on_dig has to manage the inventory.
20:43 thexyz right, that's why we need truly infinite stacks
20:43 VanessaE and ALL of those mods are broken if you use UI because default creative forces infinite stacks when they really aren't.
20:43 thexyz wait, wait
20:43 thexyz 00:40  <    VanessaE> | how many have to be "wrong" before you begin to realize that it's YOU (figuratively) that is wrong and not the mods?
20:44 sokomine hm :-) what we want is a good mode that can be used on creative servers. the main issue there is that you don't have to care about digging ressources (be they infinite or finite with a refill option), and that privs like fly are common. if you really want to get into creativity, worldedit comes along as well (for really large projects). even there, you'd do small details (which are very important) in rather conventional ways
20:44 thexyz s/wrong/broken/g
20:44 VanessaE [06-29 16:35] <VanessaE> s/wrong/broken/
20:45 VanessaE oops, ignore that.
20:47 VanessaE like I said, I give up.  you don't give a shit what anyone else thinks except you and the rest of the core devs.
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20:50 sokomine hmmmm: what i don't get: if minetest.get_content_id(name)  is used, what if name did not previously exist in that region? will it then be added? e.g. if you have a region which up until then hold only stone, and now you're adding a few sand node (just as an example!). will the default:sand then be given its own id? as far as i understand map chunks on database level, each chunk has its own list of id<->name pairs
20:50 hmmmm 'region'?
20:50 PilzAdam sokomine, the id<->name pairs are per server
20:50 hmmmm oh i see
20:51 hmmmm no no no, this is not per block at all
20:51 hmmmm these are *the* node IDs
20:51 sokomine oh!
20:51 hmmmm if the first node you register is default:dirt, for example, then that's going to have id 0
20:52 PilzAdam e.g. in my nether mod I first create a table "ids" with all the node ids at the initial running, then I access this table in the on_generated() calls
20:52 sokomine what happens if you add and delete mods? will the list be extended?
20:52 PilzAdam the list gets created at each startup
20:52 hmmmm huh??
20:52 sokomine aah
20:52 hmmmm hmm
20:53 PilzAdam the only ones that are hardcoded are ignore=0 and air=1 AFAIK
20:53 hmmmm i guess for people to actually appreciate what's going on here, they'd have to know more than i thought about minetest's internals
20:53 hmmmm ignore is 127, air is 126, lol
20:53 PilzAdam whys that?
20:53 hmmmm does it really matter?
20:53 hmmmm they're memorable numbers i guses
20:54 sokomine maybe i was thinking too close to the map storage format. while not everything in there is clear to me, it seems so that it has a list of nodenames which represent ids - and those ids are later used to tell which node is at which location withhin the chunk. the scheme files seem very similar in structure
20:54 hmmmm sokomine, that only has to do with mapblock serialization
20:55 sokomine ok. your format looked very similar. i really hope there'll be more examples that make use of it soon :-)
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20:55 PilzAdam examples incoming:
20:55 john_minetest Is minetest only using BSD sockets or also some other networking lib?
20:55 sokomine but if you tell me now that that list stays constant while the server runs it's fine
20:55 PilzAdam https://github.com/PilzAdam/nether/commit/46f095f02a52ef0fa5146fb9b1a207d53ceadd15
20:57 PilzAdam sokomine, as you can see the ids can be gotten after the register_node() calls of the needed nodes and they can be used until the server shuts down
20:58 hmmmm again, pilzadam.... i'm not entirely sure why you need to pass the chunk x,z borders to calclighting... i figured it was originally that way so those border blocks would have correct lighting if a cave gets placed into them
20:59 hmmmm i don't think people realize how little abstraction voxelmanip provides.. it's very close to the metal
20:59 sokomine hm, yes, pilzadam. you're walking through the entire data field and replacing the ids of nodes you want to change through others. fine. is that the preferred method for this operation? (just to make sure)
21:01 PilzAdam sokomine, yes, as far as I know thats the fastest way to use it in Lua (no get_content_id() calls or so in the loop); also the lighting and liquid updates are only needed if you place glowing/flowing nodes
21:02 hmmmm lighting updates are required if you add light sources, remove nodes, or add nodes in such a way that the lighting would be changed
21:02 sokomine i do need something similar for schematic files. with them, it might be easier to do it diffrently - to really change the name each id stands for. but that's a diffrent situation
21:02 hmmmm if you merely replace blocks and they aren't light sources, then it is not necessary
21:02 sokomine that sounds fine so far
21:03 sokomine what i'll need there is find-the-ground, calculate-where-best-to-place-the-house, build-a-platform and things like that. those can be done with the data field. that's fine
21:05 PilzAdam hmmmm, the lighting update (i.e. set_lighting() and update_lighting()) takes 0.02 to 0.01 seconds
21:05 hmmmm ok.
21:06 Exio PilzAdam: 20ms? what hardware?
21:06 PilzAdam the whole thing takes 0.13 to 0.01 seconds
21:06 hmmmm hmm, wondering if i should remove the pmin/pmax for lighting functions
21:06 sokomine maybe placing the house/schematic directly into the data field could be an option as well. in a way, calls to get_node/set_node would be replaced by accessing the data field
21:07 PilzAdam hmmmm, yea, its more consistent
21:07 Exio if it isn't a 2005 underclocked laptop cpu, then it is slow
21:07 hmmmm not only more consistent, but removes any dangerous possibilities
21:07 hmmmm and then the end user gets less control too
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21:08 hmmmm anyway, this is going to break the code people have currently if i do remove it
21:08 hmmmm at least if they use set_lighting()
21:09 PilzAdam nobody except me uses it currently AFAIK
21:09 PilzAdam maybe paramat does
21:09 PilzAdam but it isnt in any stable release or so
21:09 hmmmm somebody should really start making dev wiki pages on this interface
21:09 sokomine no, it's still very early and most people still try to figure out how to use it. best time to do change if needed
21:10 sokomine what about size of the voxelmanip area? any limitations?
21:11 hmmmm it has to be greater than or equal to zero, and less than 65536 in each coordinate
21:11 Exio the ram the server has, i guess?
21:11 Exio hehe, i was right :P
21:11 PilzAdam Exio, RAM + swap
21:11 john_minetest Does minetest use winsocks or BSD sockets depending on the OS?
21:11 sokomine hm :-) maybe i ought to have asked about "practical limitations" then :-)
21:11 hmmmm john_minetest, what do you think?
21:12 PilzAdam sokomine, the area gets loaded and possibly generated
21:12 sokomine so a region of 1024x256x1024 nodes might work well?
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21:12 sokomine hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
21:12 sokomine if it gets generated, well, hmmm....
21:13 PilzAdam you can use os:clock() to benchmark it
21:13 john_minetest hmmmm: I am not very experienced with C++. In socket.h there is an ifndef part with "win32" and "else" so I think it chooses depending on the OS.
21:13 PilzAdam thats the best way to find out
21:13 sokomine maybe going up in the sky would then be a solution? or disable mapgen for that purpose of importing maps
21:15 Exio disable mapgen = singlenode mapgen + air
21:15 john_minetest SDL_net seems to be quite portable. What are the disadvantages of it?
21:16 sokomine single node mapgen? how do i get that?
21:19 Exio mg_name = singlenode in minetest.conf
21:20 PilzAdam actually in map_meta.txt
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21:23 Exio well
21:23 Exio you can with the new api that hmmmm added too
21:23 Exio but i don't know it :P
21:24 hmmmm sokomine, i use singlenode for importing maps
21:24 hmmmm it's for whenever you effectively need a blank slate
21:25 sokomine ah, fine. how do i get it to produce air? also, it might be helpful to place one node every x blocks as a reference
21:26 hmmmm you need to place the node every x blocks using a mod
21:26 sokomine ok
21:26 hmmmm you have it produce air by simply doing nothing, it generates air only by default
21:26 sokomine perfect
21:27 hmmmm what are you importing?
21:30 MinetestBot GIT: proller@github.com commited to minetest/minetest: Optimize liquid queue on generate map for liquid_finite 848c3fe51a 2013-06-29T14:29:21-07:00 http://git.io/yG18ZA
21:32 hdastwb I believe WinSock and BSD sockets are quite similar; there can't be much difference in the code
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21:40 john_minetest hdastwb: You're right, just a few things like constructors and destructors, nothing that can't be done with a few #ifndef s.
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22:59 STHGOM bye
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23:26 svuorela does grass spawn by itself ?  (the thing that once in a while gives me wheat seeds)
23:27 PilzAdam svuorela, grass grows near other grass
23:30 svuorela PilzAdam: and if I have none ?
23:31 PilzAdam walk arround and search it
23:31 * svuorela is on a skyblock.
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23:31 PilzAdam then better dont walk arround ;-)
23:32 Exio lol
23:33 svuorela I can walk plenty around. Has made into two platforms with a rail preventig me to fall off
23:33 Exio svuorela: what skyblock mod/game?
23:34 svuorela Exio: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=6133
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23:43 sokomine that mapgen flag didn't work. i got a full world (a pretty nice one - with a beach with palm trees). not the desired empty map
23:44 PilzAdam its not a flag
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23:54 sokomine how do i create a world with  mg_name = singlenode   ? putting it in map_meta.txt in the world folder (of a newly created, not yet visited world) did not work
23:56 Exio mg_name = singlenode
23:56 Exio :P
23:57 Exio i meant in minetest.conf
23:57 * Exio looks around
23:57 sokomine aah

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