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IRC log for #minetest, 2013-05-09

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 thexyz there actually is but no one cares
00:00 sapier still what you see in ios android windows and even linux if you use gnome or kde are no longer the old directorys know to most of us
00:00 VanessaE why does minetest even give two shits *what* the directory name is for a particular mod?
00:01 Menche not allowing spaces in modnames would be practical, i have *no* idea why dashes aren't allowed
00:01 sapier those are "virtual folders" that could be anything ... a plain collection of files, a cloud drive your ipad
00:01 iqualfragile1 ah, got it
00:01 Warr1024 doing a recursive search and just detecting any "mod.txt" files or something would be an interesting way to make mod installation a bit more idiot-resistant...
00:01 Menche (i *hate* folder names with spaces)
00:01 ShadowNinja VanessaE: To enforce the modname:itemname convention I imagine.
00:01 Menche ShadowNinja: that is a good reason to not allow colons, but not dashes
00:02 iqualfragile1 me too but whats worse is when people put / or \ in it
00:02 sapier but folders just was an example how mind concept of current users has changed compared to what some of us expect to be reality
00:02 VanessaE ShadowNinja: and yet, how many complaints, as kaeza said, do we tend to get about mods not working just because the folder name is "wrong"?
00:02 Warr1024 you could just specify the mod name inside the mod code, instead of inferring it from the dir structure...
00:02 sapier i personally dislike those virtual folders too ;-)
00:02 Menche and disallowing dashes is especially annoying because of how github appends "-master" to it's zip archives
00:02 VanessaE Warr1024: the mod name is already specified as part of any item or node being registered
00:02 Warr1024 VanessaE: ah, then in that case, the folder name already IS unnecessary...?
00:02 Menche and because of users like likwid who add "-master" because they assume it's a convention :P
00:02 thexyz renaming a directory is a very hard task it seems
00:03 sapier allowing some additional characters won't fix the real problem
00:03 Warr1024 I thought that -master thing was a github thing.
00:03 Menche Warr1024: it is
00:03 VanessaE though I suppose there's an argument for mods that don't define anything, but rather *re*define stuff.  in which case, how would the engine go about deciding what the mods' names are?
00:03 Menche and it breaks the mod loading
00:04 VanessaE thexyz: for a lot of people, it seems to be.  These are the same people who try to run Minetest from within the zip and then complain that nothing gets saved.
00:04 Warr1024 for certain platforms, you could probably package minetest with an installer to avoid the "run-from-zip" issue
00:04 sapier the zip problem is easyly solved by making an installer available
00:05 VanessaE yes
00:05 kaeza thexyz, renaming directory is not hard, but newcomers are like 'WTF?? this mod does not work!'"
00:05 Warr1024 and as for unzipping mods into the right places, you could simplify the user experience by loading mods directly from zips, and not giving two shits about folder structure...
00:05 kaeza and spam the forums with the same questions
00:05 Menche needing to rename a folder to load a mod is stupid.
00:05 VanessaE Warr1024: now THAT would be useful
00:05 sapier where should a newcommer know he needs to rename it? reaing 3000 line lua-api.txt?
00:05 kaeza Warr1024, +1000000
00:06 sapier finding one of felt 40 wiki pages?
00:06 VanessaE users need to fucking learn to use their computers, but until they do, we gotta try to make it a little easier for them
00:07 ShadowNinja How about assuming all folders to be modpacks unless they contain a init.lua?
00:07 VanessaE (even if, to us, it's *already* easy)
00:07 kaeza ShadowNinja, that wouldn't solve the problem
00:07 sapier that attitude only drives users away ... if we want to attract them we need to help em
00:08 Menche what is the reason for disallowing dashes in modnames?
00:08 sapier requesting each mod to add a "modinfo.txt" to main folder would solve the problem if adding mods by gui would be possible
00:08 Warr1024 I sort of understand that one; when sanitizing input and I know that SOME characters may cause problems, I tend to just block all but a small set.
00:09 sapier that modinfo could contain a small description to be displayed as well as "real" modname. minetest itself could copy the mod to this folder
00:10 PilzAdam bye
00:10 iqualfragile1 bb
00:12 kaeza why was the mod name enforcing mechanism added in the first place?
00:12 NekoGloop so that item names didn't ever conflict
00:12 sapier I guess it's been meant to avoid name collisions between mods
00:12 sapier which is obviously a good idea
00:13 NekoGloop left #minetest
00:13 kaeza well... you can already do that anyway
00:13 sapier no you cant
00:13 Warr1024 one nice thing about requiring the mod name to be the same as the folder (directory :-D) name is that it prevents mod authors from overwriting each others' folders, despite having the "mod name" being the same...
00:14 kaeza sapier, if you design a "foomod", you will prefix all items with "foomod:"
00:14 sapier more important is you can be sure if mods have differen't names they won't overwrite other mods items/nodes ... if you didn't enforce this you'll always have name collision problems
00:15 sapier in theory any modder will do this while in reality it'll be called "default:wheat"
00:15 Warr1024 aside from using a naming convention like com.gmail.authorname.modname or something, I don't see how you'll avoid eventually having a name collision between one of the many, say, "hunger" mods out there...
00:15 kaeza if other user creates another mod called "foomod", well, that is a conflict between modders
00:16 sapier yes but this conflict is quite obvious
00:16 Warr1024 not that it makes sense exactly to install more than one mod with the same purpose, but it may make sense to try to blend trimmed-down versions of each...
00:16 sapier I once had a problem because of using "debug" as prefix for debug functions
00:16 kaeza if you create, say, a "wool" mod, you won't be able to use it along with "wool" mod in minetest_game/common
00:16 sapier until realizing debug is already a lua module which I didn't use bot other mods did
00:17 sapier yes so you know a t once you'll get problems with those two mods
00:17 sapier and not wonder why all your wool nodes are undefined or wrong now
00:18 Warr1024 it would be nice if there were some way to make conflicting mods fail more gracefully than that...
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00:18 sapier I don't see any realistic option to do so
00:19 sapier if there's a naming conflict how to decide which one to be correct? and how to decide what this decision causes in the now "wrong" mod
00:19 iqualfragile1 ksnapshot has an upload to imgurl function
00:19 Warr1024 true
00:19 iqualfragile1 thats cool
00:19 kaeza you may as weel want your mod to override a default one
00:19 kaeza well*
00:19 Warr1024 simplest solution I can come up with is to pick some arbitrary, but stable, method to pick one mod, and disable the rest that conflict.
00:20 sapier which might cause all mods depending on default to fail
00:20 kaeza well, that is the modder's problem :)
00:20 Warr1024 heh, ouch :-)
00:20 VanessaE Warr1024: I believe kahrl was working on that
00:21 iqualfragile1 gn8
00:21 sapier that'll be problem of those modders failing due to some other modder doing wrong ... still what exactly would be benefit of allowing all names?
00:22 Menche could minetest use the folder name before the first dash as the modname and ignore the rest? that would fix the problem of github adding "-master" to the zip archives
00:22 VanessaE Menche: wouldn't work either, some mods don't follow that naming convention
00:22 sapier still what's benefit of this?
00:22 kaeza no more posts about "error loading init.lua: ..../minetest/mods/minetest/foomod-master/init.lua:123: blah" ?
00:22 Menche VanessaE: how wouldn't it work?
00:23 VanessaE Menche: some existing mods have username-modname"-master", others are modname"-master", still others are "minetest-mod-"modname
00:23 sapier yes but still users wouldn't know where to put the mod
00:24 Warr1024 just ignore folder names and use modinfo.txt or init.lua to determine the mod name...
00:24 sapier so you need to assist them for this ... any usefull option doing this would be able to fix the folder name too
00:24 Menche so? you could name it "foomod", "foomod-myfork", or "foomod-master" and the modname would always be "foomod"
00:25 sapier and you wouldn't recognize sapierscoolmod is colliding with sapiersevencoolermod
00:25 VanessaE Menche: with your idea, "Minetest-Worldedit" -> "Minetest", instead of just "worldedit".
00:25 kaeza any error in mod code is the modder's fault. error because folder is named wrong is not
00:25 Menche VanessaE: it would be ignored for modpacks, of course
00:26 VanessaE sure, but Worldedit isn't a modpack is it?
00:26 kaeza modders are expected to know how the engine works (at least a bit)
00:26 sapier ok you wouldnd realize kaezascoolmod colliding sapierscoolmod ... of course YOUR mod is wrong not mine
00:26 Menche VanessaE: it has to be, it has a dash in it
00:26 Warr1024 of course, you could avoid the naming problem without changing ANY code right now by repackaging all mods as modpacks...
00:26 VanessaE well true, good point
00:26 VanessaE but you still get my point
00:26 Menche not really
00:26 Menche i think making it a modpack was just a workaround
00:27 VanessaE I've seen examples of all three naming conventions in the wild, for plain old mods..
00:27 Menche pardon me for a minute as a look closer at worldedit
00:27 kaeza Warr1024, that defeats the whole purpose of individual mods
00:28 kaeza let's repackage everything into a modpack consisting of a single individyal mod
00:28 Warr1024 true, it IS a workaround.
00:28 Menche VanessaE: if a dash is in the name, it has to be a modpack. my idea wouldn't apply to modpacks
00:28 Warr1024 of course, if you know enough to make a modpack, you know enough to break apart the existing one-mod modpacks.
00:29 Warr1024 it's a cheap, quick and dirty solution that alleviates somewhat the folder naming problem for end-users, while not requiring the attention of core devs.
00:29 VanessaE Menche: right, but a large percentage of regular old mods are distributed with folder names that fall into one of the three classes I described.  All three of those classes would fail with your idea, unfortunately.
00:29 kaeza Warr1024, <PilzAdam> that's hacky
00:29 sapier I still think all this is useless if core had a gui for adding mods
00:29 Menche how? they can't have dashes
00:29 VanessaE Menche: exactly.
00:29 VanessaE but they have them anyway
00:29 VanessaE forcing users to rename them
00:30 Menche so they crash on startup. how would my way be worse?
00:30 VanessaE your way wouldn't solve the problem, that's how :)
00:30 Menche VanessaE: the fault is with the modders. the fix is to make the modders change it.
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00:31 StrayBytes left #minetest
00:31 Warr1024 As I understand it, it's the fault of hosts like github that make up their own folder names at will...
00:31 Menche if they don't change it, then the fix is to move it to "old mods" and have someone fork it if they want it to work
00:31 Warr1024 modders COULD solve that by offering hand-made zip downloads
00:31 Warr1024 but personally that would drive me nuts
00:31 VanessaE Warr1024: that's true too, and I've asked them before to make that configurable.  they have not seen fit to do so.
00:31 kaeza so let's summarize: what are the pros and cons of the name enforcing mechanism?
00:31 Warr1024 I'd rather just have users pull my code from git.
00:32 kaeza Warr1024, ORLY?
00:32 Menche my way would allow adding suffixes that are just for human reading
00:32 sapier if you release a stable version warr1024 instead of expecting users to always test latest version this wouldn't be that bad
00:32 Warr1024 sapier: you mean a stable version of my hypothetical mod?
00:32 Menche for example, if I want to make my own version if vines mod, i could call it vines-menche, and the modname would be vines
00:32 sapier those who want latest version are most likely capable of renaming a folder
00:33 Menche it would be a replacement of original vines, so they wouldn't be installed at the same time
00:33 sapier and common users would download that stable prepackaged version
00:33 kaeza Warr1024, tell Joe Random Average User that he needs to download a git client, and "git clone" (or GUI alternative)
00:33 Warr1024 true.  however, I find it much easier in general to find, and work with, hosting for git repos that will automatically make zips, compared to manually making them and finding some file locker to reliably serve it...
00:33 sapier mobf for example supplies a 8.5 mb stable zip, gitgub version is .. hmm don't even know exactly but I guess >25mb
00:33 Warr1024 kaeza: I'm talking more about the use-case of having github or gitorious build the archive for you
00:34 sapier cause github version contails lots of raw data not required to use mobf
00:34 Warr1024 sapier: I'd consider mobf to be a bit of a special case at that scale :-)
00:34 kaeza Warr1024, blame github for deciding to name the folders *inside* the zip
00:35 kaeza it wouldn't be bad if they just made "foomod-master.zip" containing "foomod" folder
00:35 sapier even if mobf is a special case creating one zip every 3 months shouldn't be too bad for any mod developer
00:35 Warr1024 kaeza: true, though it would certainly be nice if minetest could just accept it no matter how github mangles it.
00:35 kaeza well... that was my original point :)
00:35 sapier warr1024 if minetest accepts it you'll get more strange error about things simply not working
00:36 Warr1024 sapier: that's assuming that the modder is only releasing a new "stable" every few months; personally, if someone found a bug in a mod I'd published and advertised stable support for, I'd fix it in that branch and do a maint release...
00:36 kaeza sapier, like?
00:36 sapier like some node not beeing available some entity being replaced ...
00:36 Menche i typically only push a commit to my mods when I've tested it, and I'd rather not make a new "stable" release with each commit
00:36 Warr1024 sapier: when I said "accept," I meant to imply *without* subsequent strange errors :-)
00:36 sapier I release more stable versions too of course but way less than github commits
00:37 kaeza blame the modder for not writing right object names
00:37 Menche so i'd like people to be able to use github's master archive
00:37 Warr1024 I usually like to have a master (dev), testing, and release branch.
00:37 sapier yes I want a self programmin game too warr1024 but accetping any name will result in strange errors there's no way of avoiding this
00:38 Warr1024 if I find a bug in release, I rewind testing to the tip of release, commit the fix to testing, test the fix, then fast-forward release to where testing is now.
00:38 sapier there's no use in blaming anyone ... it doesn't help if kaeza is guilty mod won't work either
00:38 Warr1024 sapier: wait, you mean any characters in the MOD name, or the FOLDER name?
00:39 sapier currently folder and mod name are linked there's no way of  changing this without getting strange errors
00:39 Warr1024 I thought the problem here was the folder name, since mod authors have control over the mod name, but the folder names get mangled...
00:39 kaeza ehm... I don't understand that statement
00:39 Warr1024 there's NO way of changing this?
00:39 sapier kaeza you're always talking about blaming someone ... blaming did never fix any bug
00:40 kaeza blame harder then
00:40 Warr1024 personally, I prefer to fix bugs with a commit
00:40 sapier no modname is required prefix for all nodes and entities
00:40 VanessaE sapier: sadly, neither will this conversation :-/
00:40 sapier and for lua names only a special subset of characters is allowed
00:41 sapier vanessae you're to pessimistic
00:41 VanessaE sapier: I'm a realist
00:41 kaeza I still don't understand what does directory name have to do with mod namespace
00:41 sapier me to I don't expect this conversation to fix any problems until tomorrow
00:42 sapier directory name currently defines mod namespace
00:42 sapier unless you add a new way of defining it (which will never be as obvious as directory name) you can't make any character available in directory name
00:43 kaeza again, what does directory name have to do with mod namespace
00:43 kaeza ?
00:43 sapier its it definition
00:43 sapier what does your name have to do with kaeza
00:43 sapier yes you could add another way of defining a namespace
00:44 kaeza what is the *real* problem with defining foomod:foonode in a mod whose folder name is myfoomod?
00:44 sapier modname.txt for example
00:44 kaeza well... that could be an option
00:44 sapier problem is you hide conflicts
00:44 kaeza or perhaps Lua way of doing things
00:45 sapier if you add a mod called coolmod1 you can be sure it won't add any node conflicts to your mod coolmod2
00:45 Warr1024 I sort of like the idea of being able to have mods redefine stuff from other mods that way...
00:46 kaeza meh I give up
00:46 sapier this idea sounds nice at first but you won't like it anymore if you had to look for a bug because some insane mod redefined one of your entities
00:46 kaeza even if we come to an agreement, some core dev will just say no
00:46 VanessaE kaeza: how do you propose to solve the issue of a mod that doesn't actually define anything under its own namespace?
00:46 VanessaE where does that mod get its name from?
00:47 kaeza VanessaE, the Lua way
00:47 VanessaE which would be...?
00:47 kaeza module "foomod";
00:47 sapier and what order do mods redefine entities and nodes?
00:47 sapier who is the one actually defining it?
00:47 VanessaE kaeza: in init.lua or something?
00:47 kaeza yep
00:47 VanessaE ok, that's fair.
00:48 sapier no it's not
00:48 sapier you can remove the prefix check in this case
00:48 sapier won't be any difference
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00:49 VanessaE sapier: you're not listening....  if I provide mycoolmod, and name its folder "foobarmod", how does the engine know it's called "mycoolmod"?
00:49 kaeza and why should the engine care about that in the first place?
00:49 sapier it shouldn't and deny loading of invalid mod
00:49 VanessaE nevermind that this is a completely illogical say to do the folder name.
00:50 VanessaE way*
00:50 sapier ok vanessae how do you ensure a mod doesn't replace another mods entities and nodes?
00:50 VanessaE kaeza: it shouldn't - but it still needs to know what to call the mod, hence your 'module "mycoolmod"' idea.
00:50 Warr1024 I would guess the engine would just see an init.lua, try to load it as a mod, and check the name of the module it just loaded...
00:50 kaeza sapier, blame the modder for not paying attention
00:50 VanessaE sapier: by not getting stupid and installing conflicting mods to begin with?
00:50 monkeycoder joined #minetest
00:51 kaeza and what VanessaE said
00:51 sapier and now tell me how do i know if two modules conflict?
00:51 Warr1024 I still blame github for renaming shit without my permission :-)
00:51 kaeza let's blame everyone!
00:51 VanessaE sapier: same way as now - by seeing that something unexpected is happening with a given item/mob/node/whatever
00:51 kaeza sapier, with the current way, you are blaming the user for not renaming the mod
00:51 sapier great vanessae you really have to much time
00:52 sapier or you never did debug an application containing code of different programmers
00:52 VanessaE sapier: do I have too much time, or do you just not spend *enough* time on that particular area?
00:52 VanessaE sorry, but this is an area where I will not budge
00:53 VanessaE if a person doesn't have time to do it right, they shouldn't be doing it at all
00:53 kaeza sapier, fun fact: you can already redefine other mod's items. this isn't fort knox
00:53 VanessaE indeed, a couple of my mods do that.
00:53 sapier I can format your drive kaeza fun fact too
00:54 kaeza stay on topic please
00:54 sapier still why are you all focused to that damn modnames instead of adding a userfriendly way of adding a mod
00:54 sapier copying a mod ... guys that was userfriendly ages ag
00:54 sapier o
00:54 VanessaE sapier:  because figuring out the issues with naming mods is a lot easier than coding a UI to install them via?
00:55 sapier no it isn't
00:55 sapier you're introducing whole new erorr classes if your suggestion is realized
00:55 VanessaE well then code something :)
00:55 Warr1024 yay pull reqs ftw
00:55 VanessaE if it's so easy to code a mod installer UI, then do it
00:55 kaeza sapier, errors you can already cause
00:56 sapier I stopped coding more than 5 line improvements for minetest when I realized big improvements aren't accepted by core developers
00:56 sapier it's a difference if I have to run 1000miles to kill someone or do it instantly
00:57 kaeza wat
00:57 Warr1024 haha, yes, highly wat
00:57 VanessaE sapier: um...strawman argument
00:57 sapier just because something is already possibly it doesn't mean it's good
00:57 sapier yes exactly as silly as always telling "but it's allready possible" for any silly thing
00:58 sapier it's never been ment to be possible if it was meant to be possible prefix check would've never been added
00:58 Warr1024 would it really?
00:58 VanessaE fixing dashes in a modname would probably be little more than a one or two line change to the engine.  making it ignore the folder when a "module" line is included in init.lua (or perhaps a separate file declaring the mod name) is probably also a fairly small change
00:58 VanessaE in both cases, surely a lot less code than a mod installer/manager UI
00:59 VanessaE (and we already have the manager part)
00:59 sapier yes and both cases effectifly rendering prefix check useless
00:59 VanessaE yes?  so?  that's the whole damn point
00:59 VanessaE to get rid of the prefix check
00:59 Warr1024 zip loader would be more than a few lines, but if it's REALLY worth it, it could be maintained as a fork until it's proven well enough to justify a merge...
01:00 sapier ok do it and all errors caused by name conflicts will be fixed by those removing the check
01:00 VanessaE sapier: or by those who are stupid enough to ignore "Conflicts" and similar declarations on the mods' forum pages
01:01 sapier so I will have to rename all my mods if some stupid programmer creates a new mod abusing my mods ... thanks alot
01:01 Warr1024 isn't that already the case?
01:01 kaeza sapier, if your mod is a well established one, blame the new modder
01:01 Warr1024 or... you could just put up with it ;-)
01:01 sapier no as currently noone ever will be able to install both
01:02 Warr1024 they can just make your mod a dependency and then mess with it on init...
01:02 sapier I give up ... basic concepts of avoiding errors seam to be too complicated to implement within minetest
01:03 sapier have you ever heared of beeing better not to make mistakes than fixing them after happening?
01:03 Warr1024 the only way to make software avoid any errors is pretty much to avoid doing anything interesting.
01:03 VanessaE *sigh*
01:03 VanessaE sapier: mod conflicts are a fact of life, whether folder names matter or not
01:04 VanessaE tell the idiot who wrote the mod that conflicts with yours to fix his code
01:04 VanessaE problem solved.
01:04 VanessaE first past the post is how this needs to be handles.
01:04 VanessaE handled*(
01:04 sapier so why are there airbags and esp systems in cars if accidents still happen?
01:04 kaeza wat
01:04 VanessaE sapier: strawman argument
01:04 VanessaE stay on topic.
01:05 Warr1024 um, inverse strawman argument?
01:05 sapier no it's just an exaple YOU tell just because mistakes happen you shouldn't add anything reducing mistakes
01:05 VanessaE sapier: some kinds of mistakes can't be fixed that easily.
01:05 sapier moreover you even suggest REMOVING something reducing mistakes
01:05 VanessaE any proposal you come up with is only going to add more work for the modder
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01:06 kaeza sapier, I'll just make a new "animalmaterials" mod and see how well the name enforcing mechanism helps with that
01:06 Warr1024 wait, what?  reducing mistakes?
01:06 sapier and looking for strange bugs is less work for modders?
01:06 Warr1024 I thought the problem was that it was INCREASING mistakes for users
01:06 VanessaE sapier: we already have to look for strange bugs anyway
01:06 Warr1024 i.e. by causing something that they're doing that's not REALLY wrong to be interpreted as a mistake, i.e. naming the mod folder wrong.
01:06 sapier yes because we already have errors we can remove any error check
01:07 sapier same argument as you already mentioned some minutes ago
01:07 kaeza sapier, so a mod not working because the damn folder is named wrong is not a "strange" error?
01:07 Warr1024 I think the argument is that the error check doesn't really do anything.
01:07 VanessaE no I mean removing the error checks (as you call it) *won't introduce new errors*
01:07 VanessaE Warr1024: exactly.
01:07 Warr1024 it's like putting airbags in cars to mitigate accidents, but then having them go off at random while you're trying to drive and *causing* accidents.
01:07 VanessaE the "error check" is useless!
01:08 sapier ok I'll replace some of moretrees nodes by entities in next mobf release
01:08 sapier of course I'll hide that code
01:08 sapier you'll never find out who did it
01:08 VanessaE Warr1024: for a correct car analogy, it's like having airbags go off in a 5pmh collision with a bollard in a parking lot, when you're the sort of driver who would NEVER get behind the wheel without wearing a seat belt.
01:08 Warr1024 I thought we were talking about accidental problems, not malicious ones?
01:09 VanessaE sapier: bisect your mods tree until you find the collision.  same way we sort it out now.
01:09 sapier cause I'm gonna use curl to download an application saved in temp and modify code on the fly
01:10 kaeza sapier, ehm...
01:10 sapier imho prefix check helps a lot avoiding naming collisions you don't have same oppinion I accept this but I'll never be same opinion you are
01:10 VanessaE sapier: stop trying to invent new ways to break the proposal - your suggestions *are already a problem right now!*
01:11 VanessaE you're literally not suggesting anything that can't already be a problem nopw
01:11 VanessaE now*
01:11 sapier what suggestions?
01:11 VanessaE [05-08 21:09] <sapier> cause I'm gonna use curl to download an application saved in temp and modify code on the fly
01:11 VanessaE can't we already do this now?
01:11 Warr1024 yes
01:11 sapier that's just been a short summary of all those open issues with minetest
01:11 VanessaE [05-08 21:08] <sapier> ok I'll replace some of moretrees nodes by entities in next mobf release
01:12 VanessaE and this?
01:12 Warr1024 as I understand it, you can link in native code.
01:12 kaeza Warr1024, yes you can
01:12 sapier I won't do this because I'm not someone to destroy others work but there are ppl out there doing exactly this
01:12 OldCoder Hi. My VPS hard disks had a failure. I have fixed things. Please visit my worlds if you know them and tell me if all is well.
01:12 OldCoder Restarting now
01:13 VanessaE sapier: then those users will surely be avoided
01:13 VanessaE just like we do now
01:13 kaeza Warr1024, IRC mod install a backdoor, but don't tell anyone OK?
01:13 kaeza ;)
01:13 Warr1024 I think that the question of how to prevent malicious mod code is probably beyond the scope of minetest...
01:13 VanessaE Warr1024: agreed, this is way out of scope right now
01:13 sapier I can't even count how often mobf has been blamed for other modders errors ... removing prefix check wont reduce number of future false blames
01:13 Warr1024 kaeza: heh, I can't get the damn thing to work due to what is supposedly a bug in Lua 5.1.
01:13 VanessaE sapier: stop changing the subject!
01:14 VanessaE this isn't about who blames mobf or doesn't.
01:14 VanessaE this is about making mods easier for your "average dumb user" to install
01:14 sapier I didn't change subject I believe removing prefix check won't life easier for modders but worse
01:15 kaeza and having check in place makes worse the lives of users
01:15 Warr1024 is it more important to make life easier for modders, or users?
01:15 kaeza (and in the end also the modders)
01:15 sapier imho average dumb users benefit isn't big enough to quantify lost time on modders side
01:15 VanessaE the only people whose lives are likely to be affected negatively, are the idiots who insist on installing incompatible, conflicting mods - like plantlife being installed on the same world as the old nature pack for exmaple.
01:15 VanessaE sample*
01:15 VanessaE EXAMPLE*  damn it...
01:16 VanessaE (I hate my hands)
01:16 sapier yes of course if you install only one modders mod you'll never get any conflict
01:16 Warr1024 making lives easier for users MAY also make life easier for modders, though, as you won't have to field as many basic support questions...
01:16 VanessaE sapier: in my example, plantlife conflicts with the old nature pack because the latter contains an old, outdated copy of plants_lib.
01:16 Warr1024 but on the other hand, modders tend to have more technical know-how than the average user, so probably need less help in general...
01:17 sapier I assume writing 200 times "rename to xzy" is way faster than looking for 20 naming conflict bugs
01:17 kaeza sapier, again, what naming problems?
01:17 VanessaE the whole point is to not have to tell the user to rename the folder at all!
01:17 VanessaE because THEY SHOULD NOT NEED TO!
01:18 sapier for example node names and entity names aren't allowed to be same
01:18 VanessaE it's stupid to require it when it could have been done a better way somehow
01:18 VanessaE sapier: so you propose that a mod should not be allowed to redefine a node in another mod?
01:18 Warr1024 That'd be harsh.
01:18 VanessaE (node/entity/item/whatever)
01:19 sapier if some silly person replaces your node by an entity for example an invisible entity you'll have a lot of time to find why your node isn't placed correctly
01:19 sapier currently this isn't allowed
01:19 sapier without abusing bugs
01:19 VanessaE so then how is pipeworks supposed to be able to make a chest visibly connect to a pneumatic tube with textures suitable for the purpose?  the only way to do that is to redefine it.
01:20 sapier or add a separate chest
01:20 VanessaE um, no
01:20 Warr1024 what about existing ones?
01:20 VanessaE wrong in every possible way
01:20 sapier no YOU believe it's wrong
01:20 VanessaE it is NOT a bug to be able to redefine a mod!
01:20 VanessaE er a node
01:20 sapier ok now take your idea a little bit further
01:21 sapier what if another mod wants to redefine SAME node?
01:21 VanessaE then the last mod to execute is the one that takes precendence.
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01:21 VanessaE precedence*
01:21 VanessaE just like now.
01:21 Warr1024 it would be nice to be able to ensure that all behaviors stack and combine instead of wiping out existing ones...
01:21 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L160
01:21 sapier and this is correct predictable behaviour?
01:22 VanessaE there.  the API declares it in black and white that redefining a node is explicitly supported.
01:22 sapier I assume I have to rename all my mods to zzzzzzzzzz___mymod to ensure it's loaded last
01:22 kaeza sapier, that is hacky
01:22 VanessaE or how about you don't redefine nodes if you don't need to?
01:22 kaeza the correct way is to (opt)depend on the mod you want to modify
01:22 sapier yes but if you insist of mods load order defining redefine order exactly this will happen
01:22 VanessaE or just stop bitching about multiple mods trying to redefine nodes/items/etc
01:23 sapier ok lets define only vanessaes mods are allowed to redefine nodes
01:23 VanessaE *facepalm*
01:23 sapier if you allow redefineing exactly this will happen
01:23 VanessaE ALLOW?
01:23 VanessaE IT'S IN THE FUCKING API!
01:24 VanessaE the API explicitly says this is an allowed practice
01:24 sapier i want to modify default x wants to modify default and z too ... what should optdep help?
01:24 VanessaE eh?
01:24 * Kacey hides in the corner from VanessaE's coming rage
01:24 kaeza sapier, VanessaE redefines mesecons stuff in homedecor... seen any problems?
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01:25 sapier no cause I don't have homedecor nor mesecons because of having to many undefinded items in game
01:25 * VanessaE hands sapier some punctuation
01:25 sapier still I think the only thing we are same oppinion is that we aren't same opinion
01:26 sapier and I don't expect this to change
01:26 VanessaE no one else has problems with it either, because I'm not so stupid as to blindly redefine something without a damn good reason
01:26 kaeza sapier, maybe because most of us aren't interested in converting minetest into fort knox?
01:26 sapier you said you're realistic not long ago ... i don't expect you to redefine but it'll happen for sure
01:27 VanessaE (I "redefine" mesecons silicon only if it isn't already defined - so that my mod retains cross-compatibility with mesecons items that need silicon.)
01:27 sapier yes I knew this argument coming again ... think about something new
01:27 sapier meant kaeza
01:28 sapier I think our primary goal is making install of mods more easy
01:29 kaeza and removing the name check will help this a lot
01:29 sapier i don't deny the name problem but imho the whole mod install process is so complicatid fixing one single small issue won't help significantly
01:30 kaeza (not the name check, but the modname-foldername correspondence)
01:30 sapier I won't tell again why this is same as removing name check
01:30 Warr10241 if you want to make mod install easier, but don't think the core devs will merge in your mod interface into the game, then you could make a *standalone* tool and distribute it separately.
01:30 sapier there are already numerous standalone tools
01:31 Warr10241 what's wrong with them?
01:31 sapier no one uses them
01:31 Warr10241 anything you can wrap around your mod like an installer?
01:31 kaeza and they are cumbersome
01:31 kaeza (read: use external tools like Python)
01:31 Warr10241 yeah, portability will be a problem.
01:32 sapier the only sane way of adding a commonly used mod installer is adding it to core
01:32 Warr10241 I'm actually surprised to hear about people having mod install problems on Linux.
01:32 sapier I assume most ppl having problems are windows
01:32 kaeza Warr10241, again, it's because the newcomer does not know about the foldername=modname check
01:32 Warr10241 if that's the case, then portability is less of a problem...
01:32 sapier but as of ubuntu even in linux world there are plain users
01:32 VanessaE installing a mod is not complicated, but it can be made simpler by not demanding every other user out there rename his or her mods.
01:33 sapier vanessae just ask some ppl not working with computers for 20 years
01:33 VanessaE sapier: within one year of receiving my first ever computer, I taught myself how to code, what a CPU is, what TTL is, how to interface to the outside world, ...  if I could do that when I was only 12, so can others.
01:34 Warr10241 VanessaE: sadly, it seems that those others are few...
01:34 VanessaE but until people get their heads out of their asses, we should try to make it a little easier, but without dumbing the process own too far.
01:34 sapier I'm glad you're a smart person ... but there a lot of ppl out there not willing to become computer experts
01:34 sapier but they still are interested in playing
01:35 VanessaE sapier: then they need to at LEAST learn what a folder is, how to use a file manager, etc.
01:35 Warr10241 those non-smart people need a smart friend :-)
01:35 sapier file managers are relicts of a dieing computer world
01:35 VanessaE but since they won't, we have to help try
01:35 VanessaE a dying relic?
01:35 VanessaE um, so why does every OS come with at least one?
01:36 kaeza one thing is true: this "software" is used for amusement. users don't want to waddle through 40 page posts or topics or wikis when they want to play right now
01:36 Warr10241 got one on my android tablet, had 2 on my phone...
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01:36 sapier I haven't seen a classic file manager in android or ios
01:36 VanessaE sapier: obviously you didn't look hard enough, see above.
01:36 VanessaE hmmmm: sit still, dammit :)
01:36 sapier ok show me root folder with your android file manager
01:36 kaeza I love his username
01:36 Warr10241 Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 comes with a file manager built in.
01:37 sapier with full file system access?
01:37 Warr10241 it start you out in /sdcard, but  you can chdir .. up to root
01:37 Warr10241 of course, you aren't the root USER, but then again, I'm not root on any of my other machines either, in general...
01:37 sapier wow how often will users do that?
01:37 Warr10241 They generally won't need ot
01:37 Warr10241 since if they're installing minetest, they'd probably put it in /sdcard :-)
01:38 sapier yes most likely the won't even use the filemanager at all
01:38 Warr10241 not at all... unless you, say, download a file in the browser or something.
01:38 sapier whats it's us either? pictures are viewed by special apps
01:38 ShadowNinja sapier: I use root browser.
01:38 sapier apps are installed by appstore
01:38 sapier docs are saved in cloud
01:38 Warr10241 appstore doesn't have minetest in it
01:38 sapier so why use a file manager?
01:38 Warr10241 problem solved :-)
01:39 sapier mintest is to complicated and won't be installed by anyone ;-) problem completely solved
01:39 kaeza minetest is too
01:40 kaeza that was the original point of this conversation
01:40 sapier still my suggestion is adding a mod installer to core that one could fix any folder rename problems too
01:40 kaeza have fun writing :)
01:40 sapier I assume this wouldn't be no more than 2 days of work
01:41 sapier + about 1 week of rebasinging until giving up to get it merged
01:41 VanessaE sapier: two days to code it, and six months to get it merged maybe :)
01:41 sapier as I said 1 week of rebasing
01:42 sapier I already spent more time for scriptapi fix rebasing than for implementing it
01:43 sapier yes it's a big change and yes not everyone understands why this needs to be done ... still it'd be a step in right direction
01:44 kaeza I like the part about removing the env: thing
01:44 sapier yes but I assume it's already outdated again .... and as no one even realized add_item was missing I can be next to sure noone tested it
01:45 sapier adding a change that big while noone is interested in testing is quite risky
01:46 Warr10241 wish I could offer to help with the testing, but I've already automated mod installation with perl scripts :-)
01:46 sapier scriptapi split isn't about installing mods
01:46 Warr10241 sorry, I must have missed a topic switch then.
01:46 VanessaE sapier: regarding your split, actually c55 and others want to merge it, enough so that they're withholding other stuff until it goes in
01:47 VanessaE not sure why they're waiting
01:47 sapier test would be using any function available via lua ... 100% coverage is quite difficult
01:47 sapier yes I've been told so about 3 weeks ago if I remember correctly that's why I rebased it
01:48 VanessaE so finish rebasing it and bug the shit out of the core devs?
01:48 sapier but I assume I would have to rebase it again as within those weeks some other things have been added that might conflict
01:48 VanessaE afaik, they've been avoiding major changes to the scriptapi stuff so as not to conflict with your code
01:48 sapier rebasing is finished for about 3 weeks now
01:49 sapier but as I said I can't test any single function and variant on my own scriptapi has to much functions by now
01:50 VanessaE then just test what you can, whatever obviously might be affected
01:50 VanessaE anything near the boundaries of the various splits I'd say
01:50 sapier anything could be affected ;-) most critical part is env as it's completely changed but some other things too
01:50 VanessaE or just download my game and play around with it for a few days.
01:50 VanessaE if you find no errors there, then your split worked.
01:51 sapier I don't think you use everything too vanessae
01:51 VanessaE no, but among all the mods in my game, enough functions are surely being used that it'll be a fair test
01:52 sapier and I already testet lots of mods but still there's no guarantee
01:53 VanessaE Try anyway.  Not all mods in it are up-to-date, but most are.
01:53 VanessaE 50MB download:   http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/VanessaE_Game.tar.bz2
01:54 sapier I've got some other things to do too ;-) so I won't be able to run around for days
01:54 VanessaE (anything in there that's a github-based mod is a git clone, so you may be able to 'pull')
01:55 VanessaE ..as needed to bring in further updates).
01:55 sapier github mods
01:55 VanessaE yup
01:55 sapier :-/ I hate those crazy bleeding edge stuff
01:55 VanessaE but all are properly-named.
01:56 VanessaE bleeding edge?  well, most are stable, afaik.
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01:57 sapier I've been trying to setup a set of mods working on my 0.4.6 test server last weeks it's anoying to find out which mods are compatible to 0.4.6  ... while others aren't compatible to latest dev
01:57 VanessaE just run the latest dev, it's not like it's any less stable than 0.4.6
01:58 sapier its quite more stable because 0.4.6 is crap ... someone denied to add all those memory leak errors
01:58 * VanessaE looks at the latest overview map of her server.  There are just WAY too many dandelions and cotton here.  someone fix the flowers abm damn it
01:58 sapier still I release mods for stable versions to allow windows users to use them too ... so I have to focus on latest stable version
01:59 sapier yes waterlillies are there way to often too
01:59 VanessaE no, waterlilies are spawned at the density I wanted them to be at
01:59 VanessaE all flowers are generated by the version of flowers mod that's bundled with common (so not under my control)
01:59 sapier looks really strange if you're at same place for some time ... way too ... hmmm regular
02:00 VanessaE sapier: your copy of plantlife is too old then.  I fixed that bug ages ago.
02:00 sapier I've used latest from about 2 or 3 weeks ago
02:00 VanessaE then your map is too old ;)
02:00 VanessaE waterlilies are nicely randomized now.
02:00 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/images/VanessaE_World_Map.png
02:00 VanessaE see all the green dots in the water?
02:01 sapier no I don't say they're not random on small scale but on large scale they're regular again
02:01 VanessaE those are bodies of water that have sand or dirt and which are no more than ~2 or 3 nodes deep
02:02 sapier yes and in those areas waterlillies are quite regular
02:02 VanessaE um, no...those look pretty random to me
02:02 sapier it's just not as I expect waterlilies
02:02 sapier they grow in groups not equaly distributed
02:02 VanessaE it's easy enough to tweak the randomness spread a little more though
02:02 VanessaE they're supposed to grow in groups.
02:03 VanessaE they grow in shallow water only, and only in areas that are defined as "fertile" by the plants_lib mod
02:03 sapier in the version I have there's exactly one waterlilly than some open water then next
02:03 VanessaE your copy is outdated then
02:03 sapier is there a version number in your mod?
02:04 VanessaE I don't use version numbers, just release dates.
02:04 VanessaE most recent commit was 12 days ago; most recent to waterlilies was 2 months ago and that was to fix a 6dfacedir bug
02:04 sapier is the releasedate stored somewhere except folder name?
02:05 sokomine oh? which mods are not compatible to 0.4.6? which ones do care about version at all? many mods just add some nodes and are relatively simple
02:05 VanessaE not afaik but I don't use zips of my own mods, I use my local git repo.  That map was generated with the current git of plants_lib and flowers_plus.
02:05 VanessaE sokomine: anything that uses the new hud code
02:05 Warr10241 ha, that's what I'm playing with right now...
02:05 sokomine ah yes, memory leak errors...it seems the version i compiled after i noticed those leaks still had leaks in them
02:06 VanessaE sapier: either you've got an extra, outdated copy somewhere, or you haven't explored enough of your map to notice the spawning pattern :)
02:06 sapier don't get this personal vanessae but this is a release style I really hate, I don't update my server twice a week and have no chance what version is currently installed
02:06 sokomine vanessa: just make dandelions and cottons useful for something so that players want to pick them up :-)
02:06 VanessaE sokomine: dyes.
02:06 VanessaE default dyes makes white and yellow dyes from those two
02:07 sokomine mobf may be a bit special there with depending on version because it does a lot and needs latest versions to do exciting new stuff users (like me) want :-) the average mod is far less complex
02:08 sapier still I hate if I don't have any chance to know what version is installed this is basic for any update mechanism no matter how it's done
02:08 VanessaE sapier: git log is your friend.
02:08 VanessaE that's how you find out the "version"
02:08 sapier my server isn't even connected to internet vanessae
02:08 Warr10241 I'm not much of a fan of release dates either; I prefer commit hashes...
02:08 VanessaE otherwise I guess the zip filename maybe has the commit hash in it?
02:08 VanessaE sapier: you don't need to be online to see the log.
02:09 sapier I don't have a zip filename either after installing
02:09 VanessaE afaik that's pulled from your local copy.
02:09 Warr10241 something like 0.4.6.20130425.2dba8db98da6b would be nice, if a bit verbose :-)
02:09 sokomine are those dyes now in default?
02:09 VanessaE Warr10241: which is why my linux builds of MT have both a commit hash *and* a date :)
02:09 VanessaE sokomine: they're in common, yeah
02:09 sapier ok now I know why that small mods waste so much memory
02:09 VanessaE so whatever games use that.
02:10 sapier git log doesn't help I only see minetest gitlog
02:10 VanessaE sapier: small price to pay to have the entire mod's history at your fingerrips.
02:10 VanessaE sapier:  cd into the mod's folder and 'git log' there.
02:10 Warr10241 use git clone --depth or whatever if you don't want to pay that price.
02:10 sapier vanessae I'm just a user of your mod ... it's history isn't of any interest to me ;-)
02:10 sokomine fine :-) the colors are nice to play with. it's about time that there's a way to make colored wool that is not completely absurd (one server has the receipe to cook cactus to get blue...)
02:11 VanessaE sapier: do you have plantlife/flowers or plantlife/flowers_plus?
02:11 sapier still no info ... which is not surprising as I don't even have a .git folder in there
02:11 sokomine sapier: which small mods? and why?
02:11 sapier plantlife
02:11 sokomine ah, ok, git log
02:12 sapier flowers_plus hunglegrass plants_lib poisonivy in there
02:12 VanessaE sapier: reading comprehension FAIL...  do you have plantlife/flowers or plantlife/flowers_plus?
02:12 sapier junglegrass
02:12 VanessaE ok
02:12 VanessaE you have flowers_plus.
02:12 VanessaE so that's reasonably up-to-date then
02:12 VanessaE so then you must have an old version of my flowers somewhere too - like Nature Pack maybe?
02:12 VanessaE or I forget who else included a copy of it
02:13 sokomine as to the folder name of mods...that confused me back when i started the game as well. my current solution to the mod problem is to have a minetest/mods/ folder with subfolders like 1-nature 1-building and so on which contain the unzipped versions - and a games/nature/mods which symlinks e.g. minetest/mods/1-nature/animals-strange-name-master-bla
02:13 sapier hmm yes nature is here ... was to lazy to remove it completely after it messed up my world
02:13 sokomine at least for linux that's a very convenient way
02:13 sapier are new nodes compatible to the old ones?
02:13 VanessaE sapier: that's why.  Nature Pack has a badly-outdated version of plants_lib in it along with outdated flowers and junglegrass
02:13 VanessaE yes, of course.
02:14 Warr10241 I actually like installing mods via symlink so that the git submodules for the mods don't conflict with the submodule for minetest itself in the git repo I keep my server config in.
02:14 sokomine vanessas mods usually do care about backward compatibility. it may be an issue for a few days sometimes but is usually fixed/solved soon
02:14 sapier plants lib isn't in here I assume I already removed it but maybe flowers alone conflicts
02:14 VanessaE sapier: if you have flowers without plants_lib, you have a BADLY outdated version
02:15 VanessaE flowers sans plants_lib is ironzorg's old one, or perhaps one of my first rewrites of it.
02:15 Warr10241 if you want easy mod installation, frankly I don't know if you can beat "git submodule update --init && make"
02:15 sapier was plants_lib formerly called plants?
02:15 VanessaE sapier: no.
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02:15 VanessaE plants_lib is part of the plantlife modpack, which you seem to be mostly up-to-date with
02:15 sokomine init and make? for minetest mods?
02:15 sapier hmm maybe I should use some time to remove that damn nature mod
02:16 VanessaE nature mod, or nature pack?
02:16 sapier pack
02:16 Warr1024 sokomine: I keep my server config in a git repo, and use submodules for minetest itself, and for all teh mods I use.
02:16 VanessaE yep, nuke it
02:16 VanessaE it's no wonder you have troubles :)
02:16 sokomine nature_pack_controlled or other versions of nature are no longer needed
02:16 Warr1024 sokomine: I have a small makefile that sets up the symlinks and rearranges everything :-)
02:16 sapier i realized to late that this was the pack adding infinite growth
02:16 sapier I already removed that part
02:17 sokomine warr: ah. sounds fine :-)
02:17 Menche i keep all my mods packages with my world
02:17 Menche *packaged
02:18 sapier maybe we should think about declaring mods in mod releases deprecated too
02:18 sokomine the mods i use in a world a subject to change. that's also easier done with symlinks. it was a bit problematic for some time, but now with the common folder and game.conf therein, it works very well
02:18 Menche i plan on offering a regularly updated world download at some point
02:18 VanessaE I copy all of my mods from a separate "all of them" folder over to the server, wherein my "game" is built just before it is uploaded.
02:18 Menche keeping the mods in worldmods will make it easier for others to use
02:18 sokomine menche: that would be nice
02:19 Warr1024 git submodules are *generally* safe, since all inited repos will have copies of the dependencies, even though they're not actually in the main repo history.
02:19 Menche is there a way to disable a default mod from within the world?
02:19 Warr1024 it just means that when you spin up an additional backup, you have to init the submodules too.
02:19 Menche a lot of stuff on my server has lava and wood in close proximity
02:19 Menche i have fire removed
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02:19 sokomine menche: maybe it would be enough to allow players to download their buildings. i suggested to redcrab something like that...a mod that sends the buildings of a player to the email adress used there to get interact
02:19 Menche i fired up the map backup on another computer... literally
02:20 sokomine menche: urgs
02:20 kaeza Menche, I think there was a new setting in minetest.conf to disable fire
02:20 sokomine menche: if you create a new game and omit fire in that game.conf it ought to work
02:21 Menche can a game be bundled with a world?
02:21 kaeza you could add a mod to the world to set this setting to false no matter what
02:21 kaeza yes
02:21 sokomine yes, games are always bundled with a world. in world.mt the game is mentioned
02:21 kaeza put it in worlddir/game
02:21 Menche so, make the world use a custom gameid, and bundle the game in worldmods?
02:22 kaeza nonono
02:22 Menche just in the root of the world folder?
02:22 kaeza put it in worlddir/game
02:22 sokomine ah, ok, kaeza is suggesting a diffrent approach
02:23 kaeza Menche, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L82
02:23 sokomine for a server, kaezas approach might be better (because then it's really bundled)
02:23 sokomine what i was suggesting is more useful for singleplayer - if you want some worlds with a specific modset and others with another (what mt calls games)
02:26 kaeza rawr, github does not list me as contributor :(
02:26 kaeza (for lua_api.txt)
02:27 kaeza isn't my one-line change good enough? :P
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03:05 OldCoder NEWS: I forgot to chmod a directory tree. My worlds should be up again now.
03:05 OldCoder Please try them and let me know
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03:11 ShadowNinja PING timeout it seems, any ops around?
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03:12 VanessaE someone needs to add auto-op for that bot.
03:12 Menche why do we have 2 bots?
03:12 VanessaE because one can kick/ban flooders, the other doesn't
03:12 ShadowNinja Only celeron55 has +f
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03:13 ShadowNinja In fact ShadowBot can do everything that MinetestBot can do, but sfan5 wants to keep it.
03:14 Menche !up minetest.ltmnet.com
03:14 MinetestBot minetest.ltmnet.com:30000 is up (2.850ms)
03:14 Menche so ShadowBot only responds when MinetestBot isn't on?
03:14 ShadowNinja (Well except git commit reporting, that plugin doesn'g support python 3, I will have to write my own.
03:14 ShadowNinja Menche: Yes, unless it is from me.
03:15 ShadowNinja Menche: You can test it out in a PM or a few other channels.
03:16 Menche what differences are there?
03:16 Menche is there a list of supported commands?
03:16 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: list
03:16 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AttackProtector, BadWordKick, BotYield, Brainfuck, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Dunno, Games, Google, MassHighlight, MessageParser, Minetest, Misc, Owner, Services, SimpleReply, String, Success, URL, User, Utilities, and Web
03:16 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: list Admin
03:16 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: capability add, capability remove, channels, clearq, ignore add, ignore list, ignore remove, join, nick, and part
03:16 ShadowNinja etc.
03:18 Menche heh, "Google" is colored when I asked for a list via PM
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03:19 Menche darn, it ignores when you give 5 commands per minute?
03:19 ShadowNinja Menche: Yes, a nice touch, I found a option to enable that in the config
03:20 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: admin ignore list
03:20 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: 'Rollem!~cinch@c-71-197-240-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net' and '*!*@*.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net'
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03:20 messa4 anyone here?
03:20 Menche yeah
03:21 khonkhortisan (the rest of us are hiding)
03:21 * Menche ducks behind his desk
03:21 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: admin ignore remove *!*@*.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net
03:21 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: The operation succeeded.
03:21 messa4 whats the diffrence between [when creating new world]: build, minetest, minimal development test adn survival?
03:21 ShadowNinja Menche: Register with it.
03:21 Menche how?
03:21 khonkhortisan minimal barely has anything in it. It's good for testing, but don't use it for actual gameplay.
03:22 ShadowNinja Menche: /msg ShadowBot help register
03:22 Menche messa4: they're different games; build, minetest, and survival are very similar
03:22 khonkhortisan minetest_game used to be all we had, but it was split into build and creative, with common being whatever isn't different.
03:22 Menche messa4: i personally prefer "build", it has the most stuff
03:22 messa4 whats diffrence between survival and build?
03:22 khonkhortisan You need common, no matter what game you're using on top of it
03:22 Menche in survival, you lose your inventory on death
03:22 khonkhortisan survival is where the mobs would go if we had them by default
03:22 Menche and have to go and get it
03:22 VanessaE khonkhortisan, messa4:  ...build and survival will all be merged back into one game (minetest_game) soon.
03:22 ShadowNinja messa4: Very little currently.
03:22 VanessaE and common
03:22 khonkhortisan really?
03:22 messa4 ahh
03:23 Menche survival is also missing a bunch of stuff that is in build
03:23 messa4 ok so its not implemented yet
03:23 khonkhortisan So, I should just keep using minetest_game?
03:23 messa4 thx
03:23 Menche is "safe bones" the only diff between minetest & build?
03:23 VanessaE khonkhortisan: use minetest_game but copy in all of the mods from common that aren't already being loaded
03:23 Menche if so then i'd recommend minetest
03:24 ShadowNinja Menche: No, it has renewable lava.
03:24 Menche oh ok
03:24 messa4 is there any official minetest server?
03:24 khonkhortisan not right now
03:24 VanessaE minetest has lots of servers, there's no one "official" one
03:24 khonkhortisan modders being the main reason for that
03:25 Menche argh, crontab -e on debian uses nano by default
03:25 khonkhortisan If we could mod in-game, servers might not split so much
03:25 khonkhortisan change your default?
03:25 Menche go to servers.minetest.net to see a list
03:25 khonkhortisan I would hope it uses the same editor as git commit
03:26 Menche i just had to set EDITOR to vi, now it uses a sensible editor
03:26 messa4 i wrote my own garbage collector for MT. where to upload it?
03:26 khonkhortisan vi-m
03:26 ShadowNinja Menche: vi? it's vim.
03:26 messa4 just kidding.
03:26 Menche ?
03:26 khonkhortisan it does leak memory
03:27 messa4 vi is not the same like vim. vim is a clone of vi with a lot of additional stuff
03:27 Menche yeah
03:27 Menche haven't installed vim yet
03:27 Menche but plain vi works
03:27 messa4 im using vi on my computer (nvi from bsd )
03:27 khonkhortisan Well the answer anyway is to fork minetest on github, git clone it locally, commit your changes, push, then make a pull request.
03:27 ShadowNinja A lot better IMO.
03:27 khonkhortisan I've been using vim when I thought I was using vi - it's an alias
03:28 messa4 yeah most modern users are like that
03:28 messa4 try nvi from bsd, elvis, vim - then u can say that u worked with "vi" :)
03:29 ShadowNinja Yes, Arch comes with plaim old vi, I made sure to imstall vim quickly, I had to use nano.
03:29 Menche there are multiple vis? arch linux says it uses the "original" vi
03:29 messa4 "The nex/nvi replacements for the ex/vi editor first appeared in 4.4BSD."
03:29 khonkhortisan there's also wordwarvi
03:29 messa4 Menche: of course that theere are a lot of vi versions
03:29 messa4 but oryginal one [used in this century] came from BSD 4.x
03:30 Menche i prefer vim, for multiple undo, syntax highlighting, autoindent, etc
03:30 messa4 if you are using vi on bsd or linux nowdays and binary size its like 70kb - then u can be quiet suer that u are using nvi
03:31 Menche "du" keeps insisting that `which vi` is 0
03:31 Warr1024 symlink to vim?
03:31 Menche no
03:32 messa4 can u just ls -l vi
03:32 messa4 show us size
03:32 Menche symbolic link to "ex"
03:32 Warr1024 ah
03:32 Warr1024 du only tells you how many blocks used
03:32 Warr1024 if you want total bytes, stat
03:33 messa4 just do ls -s vi
03:33 khonkhortisan stat `which vi`
03:33 Menche "ex" is 228K
03:34 khonkhortisan Is there a programming languages that understands “smart quotes” as "regular quotes"?
03:34 messa4 whats smart quotes?
03:34 Warr1024 mine is 332,424
03:34 messa4 u mean windows like?
03:34 khonkhortisan left/right quotes instead of ambidextrous ones
03:34 messa4 Warr1024: then its propably vim
03:34 Warr1024 OpenBSD 5.2 amd64
03:35 messa4 Warr1024: 332kb for nvi?!
03:35 khonkhortisan My sentence had all three quotes in it
03:35 Menche type ":syn enable", that will only work in vim
03:35 messa4 khonkhortisan: they are not even displayed properly on my terminal
03:35 Warr1024 what's it normally?
03:35 Warr1024 the syn command is unknown.
03:35 khonkhortisan My terminal displays them fine, I have my irc font so small I barely see a difference
03:36 khonkhortisan I use urxvt
03:36 Menche my vim binary is 2.4M
03:36 messa4 Warr1024:
03:36 Warr1024 ?
03:36 messa4 my nvi is 32640 bytes. 32k
03:36 VanessaE messa4:  http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/extra/Screenshot%20-%2005082013%20-%2011:35:50%20PM.png
03:36 messa4 netbsd x64
03:36 VanessaE that's how they look when rendered properly.
03:37 messa4 vanesas:
03:37 Warr1024 /usr/bin/vi: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1, for OpenBSD, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
03:37 Warr1024 yeah, it's 325kb, the only thing I can think of is that it must be some kind of busybox packed binary or something
03:37 Warr1024 nlinks is 3.
03:37 messa4 its impossible. most [except maybe IBM mainframe os/360 programs] expect source code to be in US ASCII for compatiblity reasons
03:38 messa4 now if u will start using some fancy characters - it would be pain to work with such source code with chinese and israeli and smart quotes signs
03:38 khonkhortisan which vi → /usr/bin/vi → /bin/vim → /etc/alternatives/vim → /bin/vim-normal: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, BuildID[sha1]=0x1ae954af3f851fd6a65f868e809135cca0a98893, stripped
03:38 messa4 and not all compilers are using utf-8
03:38 VanessaE messa4: actually these days UTF-8 is fairly widely-accepted.
03:38 VanessaE still, I hate those G*d damned 'smart' quotes :)
03:38 messa4 still. no compilers will accept smart quote vs normal quote
03:39 Warr1024 yeah, they show up as ?smart quotes? on my screen.
03:39 khonkhortisan They are a real character, a use should be made for them
03:39 messa4 it totally diffrent character for compiler - even if visially similar
03:39 messa4 its* visually*
03:39 khonkhortisan I hate replacement characters! It should show as a box with four hexidecimal characters, so you at least can find it.
03:39 VanessaE I'm sure a preprocessor step could be added to translate them into 'real' quotes though
03:40 Menche a #define?
03:40 khonkhortisan ooh
03:40 khonkhortisan people would hate my code if I did that
03:40 messa4 just dont do it.
03:40 khonkhortisan :)
03:40 messa4 it would create shitload of problems. unforseen
03:40 khonkhortisan wouldn't be that hard to undo, mass find/replace
03:41 messa4 imagine if every program would use diffrent character instead quote. jewish star, cross, heart , smily face etc - crazy
03:41 messa4 programmer*
03:41 messa4 BUT
03:41 messa4 i think
03:41 khonkhortisan I don't like ascii, other people languages can't use it
03:42 VanessaE <random_geek> CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
03:42 messa4 that it would be possible and quite easy to force vim to display normal quotes AS "smart quotes"
03:42 messa4 khonkhortisan: are u kidding now?
03:42 messa4 khonkhortisan: ascii is the MOST universal text format ever.
03:42 messa4 then utf-8
03:43 khonkhortisan "Don't redefine your quotes in header files. That only goes in source files."
03:43 khonkhortisan but it's so small
03:44 messa4 it needs to be. compatiblity and simplicity :)
03:44 hmmmm why would anybody use openbsd
03:44 khonkhortisan it's more open than bsd
03:44 VanessaE hmmmm: why would anyone use windows? :)
03:44 messa4 before ASCII every single computer had multiple encoding systems - not compatible or anything . ASCII changed it. and maked it all much much much more easier
03:44 hmmmm because it's bundled with just about every computer
03:44 VanessaE heh
03:44 Warr1024 openbsd was bundled on this one
03:45 khonkhortisan Yet, we still use different line endings and a keyboard layout that prevents mechanical jamming.
03:45 Warr1024 at least, after I bundled it myself after removing the factory debian install :-)
03:45 VanessaE khonkhortisan: that theory has been somewhat debunked.
03:45 messa4 khonkhortisan: nothing stops u from using dvorak keyboard today :)
03:45 khonkhortisan I use a variant of it
03:45 messa4 i know few ppl who do that
03:46 khonkhortisan but it annoys me when I find a game with wasd controls and no way to change them
03:46 messa4 khonkhortisan: dvorak is just about layout or its using non ascii characters too?
03:46 VanessaE messa4: pah.  I tried using a swedish keyboard once (a friend's laptop he'd brought to a geek con).  The only differences there were two or three keys that were moved around...and even THAT was a bitch to use :)
03:46 khonkhortisan just layout. I use a compose key for the special stuff
03:46 BrandonReese I started using dvorak but I didn't have time to practice dvorak until I could type as fast as I can using qwerty
03:47 khonkhortisan you must be busy :P
03:47 messa4 VanessaE: tell me about it. I was living in poland, swizerland, and uk in past few years - every single of them are using diffrent layout of keyboard [even for stuff like ! @ $ etc]. it is PAIN to use it. thats why im using ONLY classical US-ASCII keyboard layout wherever i can :)
03:47 messa4 too much pain and time wasted
03:47 VanessaE hehe
03:47 VanessaE and this was just a few mundane keys like / and @, and I think z also
03:48 khonkhortisan I swapped caps lock and escape.
03:48 messa4 now imagine that u are in corpo enviroment and u cant swap keys :D
03:48 messa4 HELL
03:48 VanessaE ick.
03:48 messa4 and u spend 5 minutes to find "@" character :)
03:48 khonkhortisan "I blocked the terminal because it was a security risk"
03:48 Warr1024 you only need 11 keys, really
03:48 VanessaE khonkhortisan: I rip that fucking thing off every keyboard I get
03:48 Warr1024 the numpad and ALT
03:49 VanessaE CAPS LOCK SHOULD BURN IN HELL.
03:49 khonkhortisan don't do that! You can swap it out for a useful key!
03:49 messa4 heh
03:49 messa4 anyway. for me its US-programmer keyboard for life
03:49 khonkhortisan I still haven't gotten alt keys to work the same way on a non-windows
03:49 messa4 standard us-ascii one
03:49 Warr1024 I wish US keyboard were standard-ish, at least
03:50 messa4 they are
03:50 Warr1024 like, why can't they all have the good \ and backspace arrangement?
03:50 messa4 warr: thats just physical layout
03:50 Warr1024 that's enough to be annoying
03:51 messa4 why?
03:51 Menche i use ALT as the modifier for my wm controls, using a mac keyboard that has command there is really annoying
03:51 messa4 its standard since like 80"
03:51 messa4 Menche: like for emacs?
03:51 Menche for my window manager
03:51 Warr1024 besides, everyone knows that alt isn't alt, it's meta.
03:51 messa4 then u are right. emacs was designed for TOTALLY diffrent keyboard layout then modern IBM keyboards popular since 80"
03:51 * khonkhortisan knew that
03:51 Warr1024 :-)
03:52 messa4 i once saw this keyboard and it makes sense - emacs was easier to use on it [no pain in pinky finger]
03:52 khonkhortisan but I forgot why I knew that - emacs? enlightenment?
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04:45 VanessaE wtf?  my 512px pack works again?  what un-broke this time? ;)
04:45 khonkhortisan we may never know...
04:48 messa4 btw. does anyone here played Wurm game?
04:49 * Menche just remembered he forgot to back up his server's player data
04:49 Menche oh dear
04:49 VanessaE uh oh
04:50 ShadowNinja !up 67.241.154.164
04:50 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: 67.241.154.164:30000 seems to be down
04:50 MinetestBot 67.241.154.164:30000 is up (0.222ms)
04:50 ShadowNinja What?
04:50 khonkhortisan it can only handle one bot request at a time
04:50 * Menche isn't doing too well today, forgot to remove the fire mod
04:50 ShadowNinja Can someone test my server, it is back up.
04:51 rsiska joined #minetest
04:51 ShadowNinja Menche: disable_fire=true
04:51 VanessaE ShadowNinja: it seems to be working.
04:52 ShadowNinja khonkhortisan: Most likely something broke in the 2 to 3 conversion.
04:52 VanessaE waiting for media..
04:52 VanessaE and there it is.
04:52 ShadowNinja OK, good.
04:52 VanessaE couple of unknown blocks near me
04:52 khonkhortisan conversion of what?
04:53 khonkhortisan HAHAHA
04:53 khonkhortisan > bin/minetest 67.241.154.164
04:53 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Near what? How many?
04:53 VanessaE two of them, under the spawn platform
04:53 khonkhortisan One of the items in the Singleplayer world list:
04:53 khonkhortisan [--world parameter] {new] {minetest]
04:53 VanessaE look in your log, I just punched one of them
04:54 ShadowNinja Hmmm, I don't know what that is.
04:54 VanessaE btw, where did you get these steel fences?
04:54 ShadowNinja Oh, a mod I rmed because I didn't feel like fixing a bug in it.
04:55 khonkhortisan http://postimg.org/image/6di7cte9n/
04:55 messa4 any jews here/
04:55 messa4 ?
04:55 ShadowNinja Custom mod, modified xfences.
04:55 VanessaE messa4: why?
04:55 VanessaE ShadowNinja: you should release it, they're kinda nice
04:55 Menche now, to get my server announcing again
04:55 messa4 VanessaE: u jewish?
04:56 ssieb VanessaE: after seeing your map image, I'm curious to look at your server :-)
04:56 VanessaE yes, why?
04:56 messa4 VanessaE: shalom. do u know any irc channel with a lot of jewish ppl?
04:56 VanessaE ShadowNinja: shit, something over here just caught fire
04:56 khonkhortisan Someone please run "minetest localhost" from their command line and tell me what the singleplayer Select World list looks like
04:56 VanessaE messa4: no, sorry
04:56 ssieb it's funny how obvious the mapgen glitches are at that level
04:56 messa4 :(
04:56 messa4 hard to make jewish friends
04:56 messa4 no jews on irc
04:57 VanessaE ShadowNinja: looks like some griefing over here where I'm at, {-5.9,3.5,-79.1}
04:57 VanessaE messa4: I don't generally bring it up is all, not usually on-topic for most chat's I'm ever a part of :)
04:57 VanessaE ShadowNinja: server just shut down on me.
04:57 khonkhortisan You mentioned the native form of kosher once
04:58 VanessaE khonkhortisan: it was probably on-topic for the chat :)
04:58 khonkhortisan kashrut
04:58 messa4 btw. i love minetest
04:58 ShadowNinja VanessaE: The fire should be fixed
04:58 messa4 usually i hate open source games [not polished and lacking] but minetest is diffrent
04:58 VanessaE khonkhortisan: that's the name of the set of dietary guidelines as a whole.  to keep kosher is to follow those guidelines.
04:59 ShadowNinja Lemme restore the map.
04:59 VanessaE ShadowNinja: there's lava here.
04:59 VanessaE looks like someone was fuckign around with lavacooling.
04:59 ShadowNinja Yes, I know.
04:59 ShadowNinja Where?
05:00 khonkhortisan Lavacooling should turn into something other than stone by default, to difficult to get rid of otherwise
05:00 VanessaE inside a building at -11,7,-78
05:00 messa4 is it possible to create buildings for minetest without game? [in text editor or something]
05:00 VanessaE messa4: sorta, if you can grok the Worldedit file format.
05:00 VanessaE it's plaintext
05:00 ShadowNinja Well unless the fire did very little damage I will restore the map.
05:01 VanessaE it destroyed the floor here I think.
05:01 khonkhortisan I can't delete the [--world parameter] [new] [minetest] world
05:01 ShadowNinja OK, shutdown I guess.
05:03 messa4 guys: please implement monters, animals adn farming today ok? so i can download today
05:03 messa4 thx
05:03 VanessaE messa4: you can download a mod to get that stuff if you want it
05:03 messa4 u work and i will go to play
05:03 messa4 i know just kidding. cant wait until all good stuff will be included as default
05:04 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Map restored.
05:04 VanessaE checking it
05:04 VanessaE ShadowNinja: do you use rollback protection?
05:04 ShadowNinja Yes.
05:05 VanessaE wow, good thing you disabled fire. the lava is still here, but the floor is intact now (looks like brown wool)
05:05 ShadowNinja Just a setting thanks to my commit :-)
05:06 messa4 it would be cool to have "slaves mod"
05:06 messa4 u create plan in editor
05:06 messa4 and they u realease slaves to build it
05:06 messa4 then u need to feed them
05:06 messa4 and make them shelter
05:07 messa4 like in good old days
05:07 messa4 of 1100
05:07 VanessaE ShadowNinja: sizable building here made entirely out of unknown blocks plus some lava columnds, {-11,6,-99}
05:07 VanessaE -d
05:07 ShadowNinja Yes, same mod.
05:08 VanessaE shit, they're all over the place
05:08 ShadowNinja I tried running the server as a restricted user, permissions are being difficult.
05:08 VanessaE huge one over here next to the clipper ship
05:09 ShadowNinja Yep, my bedrock mod. Built by tret.
05:09 VanessaE I run my server as an unprivileged user also
05:09 khonkhortisan haha who moved clouds to the loading menu?
05:10 VanessaE khonkhortisan: zeg9 did
05:10 khonkhortisan it looks good
05:11 ShadowNinja VanessaE: How do you keep things sorted?
05:11 VanessaE ShadowNinja: a script, proper group permissions, and gratuitous use of sudo therein :)
05:12 VanessaE user minetest, group minetest, put myself in that group, and use sudo where that isn't enough
05:12 ShadowNinja Hmmm, I will have to chmod g+w
05:13 VanessaE I always use numbers, 664 and 775 in particular
05:13 messa4 btw
05:13 messa4 does anyone here have some old pc? [486 etc]
05:13 messa4 i wonder if ucan run tiny map of mt on it
05:13 VanessaE messa4: I have a commodore 128..does that count? ;)
05:13 messa4 no
05:13 VanessaE no, a 486 can't run MT I don't think.
05:14 messa4 it would be cool to check how low we can go
05:14 messa4 does mt support pure software renereer? and is it fast [like in quake 2?] or its just emulating 3d and its dead slow?
05:14 messa4 renderer*
05:14 VanessaE it does, but it's slow
05:15 messa4 ok :(
05:15 messa4 old games had native huge speed software renderers
05:15 messa4 half life, quake 2 etc
05:15 VanessaE anything that's pure software, by definition, is emulating 3d
05:15 VanessaE but then old games had hardware-specific renderers
05:15 ssieb on Fedora, minetest is setup with its own user and systemd unit files
05:16 messa4 thats crazy
05:16 messa4 creating whole account for single application? :)
05:16 ssieb why, that's pretty standard
05:16 messa4 unless u planning running server heh
05:16 ssieb that's what it's for!
05:16 messa4 its not standard for desktop solution. for server: sure
05:17 ssieb that's why it has systemd unit files too
05:17 VanessaE ShadowNinja: tip, use wrought iron fenceposts (rather than poles) when placing signs, they'll attach properly then.
05:17 VanessaE (I haven't gotten around to adding signs-on-poles yet)
05:18 ShadowNinja VanessaE: I am not the greatest builder, somone elses poles. ;-)
05:18 VanessaE I'm fixing 'em :)
05:20 Menche how do you disable fire?
05:20 VanessaE delete the fire mod
05:20 VanessaE ShadowNinja: your copy of travelnet mod is slightly outdated btw
05:21 ShadowNinja Menche: disable_fire=true
05:21 VanessaE or do that :)
05:22 ShadowNinja I will update once I get privs and files sorted.
05:22 messa4 can tree grow on desert sand?
05:22 VanessaE dunno
05:23 ShadowNinja messa4: No.
05:23 Menche oh, fire was disabled, the existing fire just had to go out
05:23 Menche well, my server is quite a mess
05:24 ShadowNinja Yes, I didn't add anything fancy like a ABM to remove them, just the normal ABM.
05:27 VanessaE ShadowNinja: you use luacontrollers here?  is that safe?
05:27 messa4 thx
05:30 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Yes, functions, loops, etc, are disabled.
05:30 ShadowNinja (And I love their usefulness)
05:30 messa4 btw
05:30 messa4 project is done in c++ and lua?
05:31 ShadowNinja Command blocks not so safe but I don't feel like modifying my copy(feature request, a setting)
05:32 VanessaE what, no screwdriver!? *grumble*
05:32 VanessaE :)
05:35 VanessaE jeez, lots of little bits of griefing here and there.
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05:39 ShadowNinja VanessaE: I switched to minetest_game for now, you can repair greifing, and what was that script you use?
05:39 VanessaE I'm working on the griefing and also a little build-out here and there where it looks like it was wanted.
05:39 VanessaE I'll post the script in a few mins, but it's one I wrote for the purpose.
05:40 VanessaE mainly it just copies mods around, deletes a few things, and packages it all up for distribution on my website
05:40 ShadowNinja I fixed the bedrock mod btw(I think)
05:41 ShadowNinja But I have to test before I push.
05:42 ShadowNinja Is there a way to set the default mode for new files?
05:42 VanessaE I think the umode command does that
05:42 VanessaE been a while since I last used it though
05:46 VanessaE ok, that's enough of that for now
05:51 VanessaE http://apache.slashdot.org/story/13/05/09/003236/backdoor-targeting-apache-servers-spreads-to-nginx-lighttpd
05:51 VanessaE oh real nice.
05:51 VanessaE guess I should be glad I didn't bother to set up nginx for cache use :)
05:53 ShadowNinja Hmmm, I havn't set up nginx yet.
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06:40 ssieb they have to break into your server first before they modify the web server
06:50 kaeza joined #minetest
06:55 * VanessaE pokes kaeza, just because.
06:55 * kaeza puts http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89117#p89117 on VanessaE's head :3
06:55 * VanessaE throws the spam in the trash
06:56 * kaeza is bored
06:56 * kaeza may actually play on VanessaE's server tonight
06:56 VanessaE have fun :)
06:56 VanessaE (barely anyone plays there anymore, no clue why)
06:57 kaeza too many servers being created
06:57 VanessaE I guess so
06:58 sfan5 good moring
06:58 sfan5 +n
06:58 kaeza have you considered taking the word of our lord Survival into your heart?
06:58 VanessaE mornin'
06:58 kaeza :P
06:58 kaeza morning sfan5
06:59 VanessaE Fuck survival, I wanna build something.â„¢
06:59 VanessaE :)
06:59 kaeza :(
06:59 * sfan5 had a dream about Microsoft creating a _low cost_ ARM tablet with XP
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07:00 VanessaE sfan5: some dream :)
07:01 * kaeza wants this instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLYSch_Mi58
07:01 VanessaE heh
07:02 kaeza my floor is still there :D
07:02 VanessaE if he was REALLY crafty, he'd make it run SNES games ;)
07:03 VanessaE oh wait
07:03 VanessaE neat
07:04 VanessaE kaeza: what floor?
07:04 kaeza in your server
07:04 VanessaE heh, I don't remember where you were building last :)
07:05 kaeza and I don't remember where did I put my music box :(
07:06 VanessaE you mean the orange one from the old server?
07:06 kaeza yep
07:06 kaeza (desert stone)
07:06 VanessaE I never imported it.
07:06 VanessaE gimme a few and I'll copy it in
07:06 kaeza :((((((
07:06 kaeza np, I'm gonna build it bigger this time
07:07 VanessaE you don't want the old one?
07:08 VanessaE ah, found it
07:08 kaeza don't worry about that
07:08 VanessaE aw, I was about to save it
07:09 kaeza well, if you want to, I don't mind :)
07:11 ShadowNinja My server management script and !up updated to python 3.
07:12 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: up 0gb.us
07:12 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: 0gb.us:30000 is up (0.326ms)
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07:12 ShadowNinja (socket now uses a bytes object)
07:17 sfan5 !up 0gb.us
07:17 MinetestBot 0gb.us:30000 is up (0.416ms)
07:20 ShadowNinja sfan5: Will MinetestBot use python 3?
07:20 sfan5 not yet
07:21 sfan5 but it may be able to
07:22 ShadowNinja I had to give up commit reporting, I will have to write my own plugin for it now.
07:28 meldrian joined #minetest
07:36 whirm joined #minetest
07:37 kaeza joined #minetest
07:38 kaeza stupid modem
07:38 VanessaE shit happens :)
07:38 VanessaE sign in so I can make you owner of your land :)
07:38 kaeza k
07:38 VanessaE there we go
07:38 Calinou joined #minetest
07:39 ssieb what do you use for ownership?
07:39 VanessaE node_ownership
07:39 VanessaE my fork with admin override of course :)
07:39 * ssieb looks it up
07:39 kaeza grief on a creative server *genius*
07:40 VanessaE yep, people actually do oit
07:40 VanessaE i
07:40 VanessaE it
07:40 VanessaE shadow's server, too.
07:40 Calinou hi
07:40 kaeza I seriously don't understand what's the fun
07:40 kaeza speaking of griefers
07:40 kaeza o hai Calinou
07:40 Calinou better, claim server to be hardcore but disallow griefing
07:41 * Calinou was recently victim of that :<
07:41 monkeycoder joined #minetest
07:43 * kaeza does not understand why they added the 'fov' variable
07:44 kaeza you cannot set it programatically per-client, and doing /set fov x requires admin privs :|
07:57 ShadowNinja ops: restarting ShadowBot, ready for re-op?
07:59 sfan5 ShadowNinja: MinetestBot is always ready
07:59 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: quit
08:00 ShadowBot joined #minetest
08:00 sfan5 !op ShadowBot
08:00 sfan5 damnit
08:00 VanessaE ninja'd again :D
08:00 ShadowNinja lol
08:00 VanessaE (insert random chop-socky cries here)
08:01 sfan5 !g google
08:01 MinetestBot sfan5: http://www.google.com/
08:01 ShadowNinja sfan5: Can you add me to MinetestBot's op list so I can do it myself?
08:01 VanessaE or just give auto-op directly from Minetestbot -> ShadowBot
08:02 sfan5 ShadowNinja: gimme a hostmask that matches to JUST you
08:03 ShadowNinja sfan5: /whois ShadowNinja, I have a cloak so changing IPs isn't an issue and I have to auth with NickServ to get it.
08:03 sfan5 k
08:04 sfan5 so *!*@unaffiliated/shadowninja does it?
08:04 ShadowNinja Yes
08:04 sfan5 VanessaE: do you want admin rights for MinetestBot too?
08:04 VanessaE naw, don't need it
08:04 VanessaE I make a shitty admin anyway :)
08:05 * ShadowBot wakes up
08:06 sfan5 ,,(op sfan5)
08:06 MinetestBot joined #minetest
08:06 * ShadowBot sleeps
08:06 sfan5 ,,(op MinetestBot)
08:06 sfan5 :/
08:06 sfan5 ShadowNinja: try any of the admin commands listed here:
08:06 sfan5 !help
08:06 MinetestBot https://github.com/sfan5/minetestbot-modules/blob/master/COMMANDS.md
08:06 sfan5 ^
08:06 messa4 hello
08:07 sfan5 hi messa4
08:07 messa4 is it possible to make minecraft made from balls instead squares?
08:07 messa4 with gravity dynamics - ball rolling around. kinda neat idea
08:07 VanessaE minecraft?
08:07 VanessaE er
08:07 messa4 minetest*
08:07 sfan5 umm.. this is the minetest channel
08:07 messa4 :)
08:07 sfan5 ..
08:07 messa4 i know
08:07 sfan5 yes
08:07 sfan5 but you'd need to do some work to achieve that
08:08 VanessaE you mean something like the old classic 80's Marble Madness?
08:08 messa4 sfan5: and is it easy to make default square lets say 10x smaller by default?
08:08 messa4 VanessaE: exactly :)
08:08 messa4 marbles
08:08 VanessaE that's impossible though
08:08 sfan5 messa4: i don't think it would be too easy
08:08 VanessaE (the 10:1 scale blocks)
08:08 messa4 why impossible?
08:09 VanessaE the engine is simply not set up for that
08:09 messa4 becasue of memory usage or what?
08:09 messa4 just make my character 10x bigger
08:09 VanessaE because it was set up to make the blocks 1m cubed :)
08:09 sfan5 !uuencode MinetestBot
08:09 MinetestBot +36EN971E<W1";W0
08:10 VanessaE uuencode?  heh, didn't know anyone still used that :)
08:10 Calinou hello mr. "do a smaller cubes"
08:10 sfan5 !seen ShadowBot
08:10 MinetestBot sfan5: shadowbot was last seen at 2013-05-09 08:07:16 UTC on #minetest
08:10 Calinou messa4: could be possible by scaling the player 10x
08:10 Calinou but would make the game much more resource intensive, and would also shorten view range
08:11 messa4 so i would press R button
08:11 messa4 im asking coz i dont understand why minetest is limited to huge unnatural blocks
08:11 ShadowNinja Good night!
08:11 VanessaE night
08:11 messa4 while in fact - engine could handle some other shapes :)
08:11 sfan5 !server name:sfan5
08:12 sfan5 MinetestBot!
08:12 messa4 its just polygons
08:12 sfan5 ...
08:12 MinetestBot sfan5: No results
08:12 MinetestBot sfan5!
08:13 sfan5 !server name:server random
08:13 MinetestBot sfan5: WazuClan.com | wazuclan.com | Clients: 6/32 | Version: 0.4.6 minetest | ping: 0.207
08:13 sfan5 !server name:server random
08:13 MinetestBot sfan5: WazuClan.com | wazuclan.com | Clients: 6/32 | Version: 0.4.6 minetest | ping: 0.207
08:13 messa4 omg
08:13 messa4 thats my server!
08:13 kaeza messa4, because if you make the cubes half their size, you must draw 8x the amount
08:13 messa4 i mean i play there :D
08:13 VanessaE heh
08:13 messa4 my nickname: hans
08:13 kaeza my nickname: kaeza
08:14 messa4 u saw my tower yet?
08:14 messa4 its like 120 blocks high
08:14 kaeza (I play nowhere)
08:14 messa4 btw
08:15 messa4 does mt have some kind of cache for seen blocks? [i mean in multiplayer server]
08:15 messa4 or its delivereed to player every single time when he is looking somewhere?
08:16 kaeza VanessaE, for some reason I can't craft cobble slabs on your server (which is kind of pointless anyway because it's creative :P)
08:16 VanessaE the server and client both cache it a bit.
08:16 VanessaE kaeza: use the circular saw
08:16 arsdragonfly joined #minetest
08:16 kaeza actually, scratch that
08:16 kaeza I can but they have no texture O.o
08:16 VanessaE no texture?
08:16 VanessaE oh wait, that's Calinou's attempt to disable the default recipes :)
08:17 * arsdragonfly installed debian on his phone
08:17 VanessaE just use the circular saw :)
08:17 Calinou moreblocks:nothing :D
08:17 Calinou no tooltip, invisible in hand and inventory
08:17 Calinou some people actually attempt to click, so they craft that item :P
08:17 kaeza Y U do dis? I wasted 9 cobblestone nodes!
08:19 Calinou to disable the default crafting recipes
08:20 kaeza that circular saw is cool
08:21 ShadowBot joined #minetest
08:22 ShadowNinja !op ShadowBot
08:22 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: Error: I need to be opped to op someone.
08:22 kaeza anyway, enuff play for today
08:22 arsdragonfly joined #minetest
08:22 kaeza off to bed. night everyone
08:22 arsdragonfly Night
08:22 * arsdragonfly is trying to build minetest on it
08:23 arsdragonfly Idk how long it takes to compile with -O0
08:23 ShadowNinja sfan5: Please add the ability to trigger commands specificaly on your bot for all commands.
08:29 ShadowBot joined #minetest
08:29 sfan5 ShadowNinja: what do you mean?
08:29 messa4 btw
08:30 messa4 all mods are written in lua?
08:30 messa4 or what
08:30 messa4 ?
08:30 sfan5 messa4: all mods are written in lua
08:30 ShadowNinja sfan5: for example MinetestBot: op ShadowBot instead of !op ShadowBot
08:31 sfan5 ummm, that required tinkering with regexes and such things.. i'll take a look at it in a sec
08:31 messa4 sfan5: does any deafault parts of game [no mods] use lua?
08:32 sfan5 minetest_game is completly made of lua
08:32 ShadowNinja !op ShadowBot
08:32 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: Error: I need to be opped to op someone.
08:33 arsdragonfly joined #minetest
08:34 arsdragonfly How to squash multiple commits into one commit in a pull request?
08:35 Fresh_m__ joined #minetest
08:35 ShadowNinja arsdragonfly: git rebase -i
08:35 sfan5 arsdragonfly: "git rebase -i HEAD^^" change first part of second line to "fixup" save, use "git push -f" and you're done
08:36 arsdragonfly Thanks
08:36 ShadowNinja sfan5: That does exactly two up from the head. And don't you mean change all the others to squash?
08:38 sfan5 ShadowNinja: IIRC the others are "set" to squash by default (if thats what you mean)
08:38 ShadowNinja No, pick by default. But I should go, bye.
08:39 sfan5 ShadowNinja: I always just need to squash my last commit into my previous
08:40 messa4 sfan5: minetest_game = minetest game [thing that i play] ?
08:40 messa4 so only engine is written in c++ and everyting else is lua?
08:41 celeron55 joined #minetest
08:43 smoke_fumus joined #minetest
08:44 sfan5 messa4: yup
08:46 messa4 thx
08:46 messa4 btw is it normal that on multiplayer server minetest is not loading all blocks within range of my view? just the blocks area that i visited...
08:46 messa4 can it be server fault?
08:46 messa4 or its working but its just very slow?
08:47 sfan5 depends on your connection and the servers connection
08:48 messa4 so blocks are not cached in my machine?
08:48 john_minetest joined #minetest
08:48 sfan5 messa4: only in your RAM, not on your hard drive
08:48 messa4 can i enable hdd cache somehow?
08:49 messa4 offline one
08:49 sfan5 john_minetest: did you expirence  any problem last time playing JDB?
08:49 sfan5 messa4: there is no hdd cache support
08:49 messa4 please make one fro me. thx :)
08:49 sfan5 *JSB
08:49 messa4 u have 3 gours
08:49 messa4 hours
08:49 john_minetest Hmmm... There was this score problem. It worked in SP but I didn'T recheck it in MP.
08:50 sfan5 john_minetest: it spit out some of "ANTICHEAT: jmf tried to pick up tile that was not pickable"
08:50 whirm what is the most developed mobs mod?
08:50 sfan5 whirm: go check out simple mobs
08:50 sfan5 messa4: thats not how it works..
08:50 whirm sfan5: thanks!
08:50 messa4 sfan5: :(
08:51 sfan5 messa4: learn some c++ and try doing it yourself
08:51 messa4 i know python and asm etc. but i dislike c++ :(
08:51 messa4 i mean its not dislike - its too complex for me. i tried hard to get it over years and no go
08:52 john_minetest sfan5: I re-checked it now. It now works also in MP. So no problems anymore
08:52 sfan5 john_minetest: i fixed some small bug
08:52 messa4 sfan5: do have any browser link to githum of minetest?
08:52 blaze joined #minetest
08:53 sfan5 messa4: http://github.com/minetest/minetest
08:53 john_minetest http://github.com/minetest/minetest
08:53 john_minetest sfan5 was first ^^
08:53 messa4 do u use a lot of pointers and structures?
08:53 messa4 and operator overloading?
08:54 smoke_fumus messa4: how do you program? with code? are you type it?
08:54 smoke_fumus that's how it sounds.
08:54 Calinou you can make mods in lua, messa4
08:54 messa4 smoke_fumus: well. when i tried c++ i typed it in vim. and compiled with gcc
08:55 messa4 yeah lua seems easier :)
08:55 smoke_fumus ugh. vi, vim, emacs - all the same. imo - batch of editors for people who need needless complications
08:56 sfan5 vim is pretty nice if you're bound to console
08:56 sfan5 but nano is way easier to understand for noobs
08:56 smoke_fumus if i'm bound to console i'll use nano lol
08:56 messa4 i use vi becasue its "always there". not for fucntionality. i use maybe 10 keys [i,s,S,u,/ etc.]
08:56 smoke_fumus it has all the same functions but more understandable interface
08:57 messa4 only thing that i lack in "pico" whatevert is "dd" [removing current line with] function from VI. and ":" -moving to choosen line
08:57 smoke_fumus vi is always there yes. open any cisco hardware. connect through ssh/telnet to it. there is vim.
08:57 smoke_fumus *vi
08:57 messa4 ps i dont really use vim. nvi from bsd [small one]
08:57 arsdragonfly joined #minetest
08:57 smoke_fumus hack-open fridge with linux on it. there is vi
08:57 smoke_fumus :D
08:57 smoke_fumus goddamn toasters with *nix onboard have vi
08:58 messa4 anyway
08:58 LunaVorax joined #minetest
08:58 messa4 smoke_fumus: u are code by hand or there is some other magical way to generate C++ code?! [except gui...]
08:59 smoke_fumus mathlab with addons can generate c++ code from mathcode
08:59 messa4 you are writing code*
08:59 messa4 didnt know that
08:59 smoke_fumus although it is more like prototyping
08:59 smoke_fumus also there is some graph editors which allow you to visually prototype project
08:59 smoke_fumus and spit out c++ bare bones to fill in
09:00 messa4 anyway. i would rather write in lua then c++ :P
09:00 smoke_fumus but. no software will write good c++ code for you. shitty, atrocious, unoptimizied and outright illogical yes. good, safe and optimized - no wai.
09:00 messa4 true
09:01 smoke_fumus i would rather use AS/JS/C# than lua
09:01 messa4 AS? JS?
09:01 smoke_fumus actionscript
09:01 smoke_fumus javascript
09:01 messa4 are u serious?
09:01 smoke_fumus yes i am serious. i'm sick beyond reason of lua
09:01 messa4 its not portable and its propertiary etc :P
09:01 smoke_fumus are you high or something?
09:02 smoke_fumus C# is opened since mono
09:02 smoke_fumus same with javascript
09:02 smoke_fumus and mono is highly portable
09:02 messa4 but its not open launguage
09:02 messa4 anyway nvm
09:02 smoke_fumus you are an amateur in coding.
09:02 smoke_fumus why do you need it to be opened?
09:02 smoke_fumus can't write a few functions yourself?
09:03 messa4 C is open. all standardized etc
09:03 smoke_fumus what do you mean by open?
09:03 messa4 anyway nvm
09:04 * smoke_fumus drools
09:04 messa4 even java is Open. specification of java was released with initial Java.
09:04 smoke_fumus "i see a dumb people which think they are smart"
09:04 messa4 thats why u have multiple implementations of it
09:04 messa4 smoke_fumus: its about you
09:04 messa4 go and code in JS
09:05 smoke_fumus multiple? oh you mean that outdated, unoptimized, lackluster crap like openjvm?
09:05 smoke_fumus no thanks
09:05 messa4 k
09:05 smoke_fumus there is only one java that works as intended - sun/oracle's java
09:06 messa4 so why openjdk was supported by sun?
09:06 messa4 becasue it also worked
09:06 smoke_fumus better tell me why sun were needed to be bought by oracle.
09:06 messa4 patents, sparc servers, solaris, java
09:06 smoke_fumus bankrupcy and poor decisions of managment. openjdk being one of them
09:07 john_minetest Java is one of the biggest exploit machines on metasploit. I heared that it once was very safe, but since oracle owns it it became a virus supporting crap.
09:07 messa4 BANKRUPCY?!
09:07 messa4 smoke_fumus: what are u smoking dude
09:07 smoke_fumus messa4: it was half way down the hill
09:07 messa4 NO IT WASNT
09:07 messa4 i know the statemenets
09:07 messa4 dude
09:07 messa4 Sun was thriving buisness thats why even IBM wanted it
09:07 smoke_fumus if they were on the horse good managment would've never sold company to side developer
09:07 messa4 but oracled paid more
09:08 messa4 dude
09:08 john_minetest The Big Lebowski. Dude.
09:08 messa4 go to yahoo finance. and read the old financial reports. u will be shocked how much profit sun did before accusition
09:08 messa4 go and check
09:08 messa4 seriously
09:08 smoke_fumus then why did they sold it?
09:08 messa4 ps. im not big fan of oracle myself. but u  are seriolsy taking nonsense now
09:08 messa4 smoke_fumus: FOR MONEY
09:09 messa4 BILLIONS OF IT
09:09 Zeg9 joined #minetest
09:09 smoke_fumus putting instant greed ahead of long-term profits. that's seems unwise
09:09 Zeg9 Hello !
09:09 messa4 they did the same with DEC and other great companies
09:09 messa4 smoke_fumus: thats other story
09:09 john_minetest Hey, Zeg9
09:09 messa4 smoke_fumus: but seriously: sun was VERY good company before merger
09:09 messa4 aka acusition
09:10 john_minetest And java was very good before it came to oracle.
09:10 Zeg9 I agree
09:10 smoke_fumus well maybe, it is looks like biggest exploit. But take a notice - it is most ported virtual enviroment up to date
09:11 messa4 this recent shit about java: is about windoze JSE problems. the starting process on windows is just buggy and unsecure.
09:11 messa4 aka passing arguments to sandbox and vice versa while it should be fixed
09:11 smoke_fumus because windows is buggy and unsecure
09:11 messa4 not necesarlly
09:11 smoke_fumus but usually
09:12 messa4 i think that for years just not many ppl cared about javaSE security
09:12 john_minetest I prefer to use C++ because I know that it does what I write and it isn't hidden by this compiler->interpreter thing.
09:12 messa4 so no exploits were written
09:12 smoke_fumus john_minetest: good luck porting to powerPC-child processors.
09:12 smoke_fumus if your code even a bit is not ANSI-compatible - you are screwed.
09:13 john_minetest messa4: There were not that much exploits possible because sun managed to write a good java implementation. Oracle spoiled it all.
09:13 TheUndeadRaven joined #minetest
09:13 smoke_fumus spoiled maybe. but also optimized. j1.7 might be full of holes like swiss cheese but it runs faster
09:14 john_minetest smoke_fumus: Linux runs on powerPC. So if I write ANSI-compitable code it should work ^^
09:14 messa4 john_minetest: its not about java. most of those exploits are targeting windows "starting mechanism" of java. bunch of exe's - starting whole java VM infrstrsucture. those bugs are OLD - propably from Sun era. just no one else epxloited them before.
09:14 smoke_fumus john_minetest: true true
09:14 messa4 next year we might find 50 exploits in current linux glibc or ssh :)
09:14 TheUndeadRaven hi
09:14 smoke_fumus i hope you using something like Eclipse IDE :3
09:14 sfan5 Achievement get! Crash  google chrome by opening a new tab
09:14 smoke_fumus xD
09:14 messa4 lol
09:15 smoke_fumus that's a relief. was it chrome or custom build chromium?
09:15 messa4 smoke_fumus: u seruously wanted to write minetest in javascript or you were joking before?
09:16 smoke_fumus messa4: technically - you can. it will requier at least canvas. better yet webGl
09:16 TheUndeadRaven Who here is an artist?
09:16 john_minetest My browser crashed like 5 times in the last week because I was playing JS games taht needed a bit more CPU...
09:16 smoke_fumus TheUndeadRaven: what kind of artist do you need
09:16 smoke_fumus shitty js games you mean
09:16 TheUndeadRaven cartoon-style artist =)
09:16 messa4 ehh nvm
09:16 smoke_fumus :D
09:16 messa4 hate JS
09:16 smoke_fumus messa4: love js
09:16 john_minetest js is cool. I block it ;)
09:17 smoke_fumus http://www.unlok.ca/wayward/ < here. a good example of js game
09:17 smoke_fumus its a roguelike survival written by my friend
09:17 TheUndeadRaven i just need one 320x320 or 640x640 picture of an Undead Raven sitting on a tree at night with a full moon...
09:17 messa4 without JS - im able to surfe the web even on 15 years old computer. but the same sites with JS enabled [just for silly stuff like advers or login buttons] - it makes computer CRAWL [impossible to do anything]
09:17 TheUndeadRaven MineCraft style :D
09:17 messa4 hate JS
09:17 john_minetest soilnar.8dromeda.net <- Another good example of a JS game. By celeron55.
09:17 messa4 most modern JS programmers are total dumb idiots who dont care about performance.
09:17 messa4 making computers slow as fuck
09:18 messa4 with some ugly games
09:18 smoke_fumus messa4: so hate them, and not language itself
09:18 messa4 like from 1999
09:18 messa4 smoke_fumus: i hate JS
09:18 messa4 in all forms
09:18 messa4 its not needed
09:18 TheUndeadRaven so could somebody draw it?
09:18 messa4 and all it gives is bloat and SLOWness
09:18 TheUndeadRaven please :)
09:18 messa4 but nvm
09:18 john_minetest TheUndeadRaven: I could try
09:19 TheUndeadRaven thanks john...btw, its me , Ragnar
09:19 TheUndeadRaven :D
09:19 messa4 seriously. go and buy some slow computer. like rassberry pi - try to browser net with JS and without - HUGE HUGE HUGE diffrence
09:19 smoke_fumus okay. speaking of hate -  i hate blender. it is clunky, interface is shit, features execution is shit, and it is just poor joke for people who can't use wings3d or afford 3dsmax or solidworks
09:19 messa4 even for "silly" login scripts"
09:19 messa4 but its usuable
09:19 messa4 while JS is making whoel computer unusable just because u are using it...
09:20 messa4 i hate this planet. writing games in JS - with graphics worse then in 1999, but requiring computer 2000x more powerful...
09:20 messa4 insnane
09:21 messa4 im going to kill myself
09:21 smoke_fumus thank god
09:21 smoke_fumus that clown is left the building
09:23 john_minetest TheUndeadRaven: Should it be a logo?
09:23 john_minetest And how does "Minetest style" look?
09:24 smoke_fumus john_minetest: it looks like minecraft style which itself looks like a poor excuse to have pixelated textures xD
09:25 john_minetest ... Well, minetest style is complicated to make. I make it cool. With Vector graphics :D
09:26 TheUndeadRaven an avatar...
09:26 TheUndeadRaven http://i2.ytimg.com/i/uj1Ms9_LCsQPSJ4p8nvOVA/mq1.jpg?v=5166083d
09:26 TheUndeadRaven thats minecraft style
09:27 TheUndeadRaven everything is blocky
09:27 TheUndeadRaven kinda...
09:27 TheUndeadRaven john_minetest AAA
09:33 TheUndeadRaven john_minetest...
09:35 smoke_fumus TheUndeadRaven:  get onto da, find artist, pay him 10 bucks for pixelart mugshot av
09:35 TheUndeadRaven NOT PIXELART YOU DUMBASS!
09:36 smoke_fumus TheUndeadRaven: 1. shut your immateur mouth up.
09:36 TheUndeadRaven who you calling immature?
09:36 TheUndeadRaven YOU CANT EVEN TYPE IT!
09:37 smoke_fumus you can talk with lil-cunts like yourself like that, not with people which more adult and adequate than you are.
09:37 sfan5 !op
09:37 PilzAdam joined #minetest
09:37 smoke_fumus its hammer time :D
09:38 smoke_fumus TheUndeadRaven: have any last words? maybe you want to apologize for your inappropriate behavior?
09:39 VanessaE I wander off to code something and the whole fucking channel goes insane...
09:39 VanessaE morning PA.
09:39 smoke_fumus hi :3
09:39 sfan5 hi PilzAdam
09:39 Calinou joined #minetest
09:39 PilzAdam Hello everyone!
09:40 Calinou hi PilzAdam
09:40 VanessaE Calinou: you have a new pull request waiting - fixes a placement bug in slabs/stairs
09:40 VanessaE (and this time I made sure it was based on current code and without extra *~ files ;) )
09:41 VanessaE (sorry if it spammed your email with multiple attempts.  things kept...going wrong
09:42 VanessaE (uses code from pilzadam ;) )
09:43 sfan5 !mute *!*@95.129.193.48
09:43 sfan5 !unmute *!*@95.129.193.48
09:43 sfan5 !mute *!*@*95.129.193.48
09:43 PilzAdam VanessaE, what code?
09:44 VanessaE PilzAdam: that shortcut function for getting a node's field defs
09:45 smoke_fumus sfan5: thanks mate. are retards with inappropriate behavior like that one common on this channel?
09:45 sfan5 smoke_fumus: uhhh....
09:45 PilzAdam VanessaE, this one: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5528813 ?
09:45 smoke_fumus i assume yes.
09:45 VanessaE PilzAdam: naw, this:  https://github.com/VanessaE/calinou_mods/commit/8723918bd8e6fe67bdba2447508b9235e395db5a#L1R91
09:46 VanessaE (lines 91-97)
09:46 PilzAdam where did you got that from?
09:47 VanessaE I thought I got it from you?  damned if I remember now.
09:47 VanessaE :)
09:49 * Calinou likes the new loading screen
09:50 VanessaE Calinou: after you merge that pull request, can you re-enable stacking of thin slabs -> thick ones?  the code that you had before is still there, commented out, but I didn't wanna screw with it
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09:51 * PilzAdam doesnt lik eht enew loading screen
09:51 PilzAdam why turns it black at the beginning?
09:51 PilzAdam Zeg9 ^
09:51 Zeg9 It turns black because of another loading screen before it
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09:55 VanessaE Zeg9: you should let the clouds continue to animate while the media is being loaded.
09:55 whirm VanessaE: I agree
09:55 VanessaE (or the render-to-texture step if that's where it's happening)
09:55 john_minetest Undeadraven: Finished the pic
09:56 iqualfragile wel… it does continue to animate
09:56 iqualfragile but it stops from time to time
09:56 PilzAdam Zeg9, isnt it possible to have the clouds all the time?
09:56 iqualfragile *well
09:56 smoke_fumus VanessaE: 3d object below media? does irchit has such capability? last thing which were able to dynamically load in background, not interrupting other scene were unreal engine
09:57 VanessaE smoke_fumus: I don't know whether it's possible or not, but these are just clouds, so I don't see why it wouldn't be.
09:57 sfan5 VanessaE: you can't render clouds while you render to texture
09:57 VanessaE (it's not like he's trying to render the world)
09:57 smoke_fumus what if you render static image of clouds?
09:57 sfan5 VanessaE: the part of the screen that is used to render-to-texture can't be used for clouds
09:57 sfan5 smoke_fumus: no, moving clouds
09:58 VanessaE sfan5: in my particular situation, render-to-texture is not displayed on the screen.
09:58 VanessaE all I ever see is the clouds and the progress bar.
09:58 sfan5 VanessaE: render to texture is done after loading media
09:58 VanessaE sfan5: I know that.
09:58 PilzAdam VanessaE, currently the clouds just freeze if the inventory textures are rendered
09:59 VanessaE but the progress bar remains on-screen during that step.
09:59 PilzAdam wich is reasonable
09:59 VanessaE PilzAdam: yes I know.  I was suggesting that this should not be the case.
09:59 PilzAdam (better than black screen)
09:59 VanessaE additional progress information is needed here.
09:59 sfan5 on my machine the render-to-texture thing is displayed sometimes
09:59 smoke_fumus this is lame copout
09:59 smoke_fumus create stand-alone draw call for gui
09:59 smoke_fumus one which will not interrupt clouds and whatnot
09:59 john_minetest TheUndeadRaven: http://ompldr.org/vaWNzaw/undeadraven.png
10:00 smoke_fumus john_minetest: dude, don't help an asshole
10:00 Zeg9 VanessaE, they should animate while it's downloading
10:00 PilzAdam VanessaE, I was talking about the black screen in the "Resolving adress" and "Connecting to Server" steps
10:00 VanessaE PilzAdam: I wasn't. :)
10:00 VanessaE however those steps also need the clouds screen too
10:00 smoke_fumus PilzAdam: VanessaE:  just add another layer with stand-alone drawcall >.>
10:00 VanessaE (also..too?  grammar FAIL)
10:00 john_minetest TheUndeadRaven: This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license.
10:01 smoke_fumus john_minetest: he is muted xD
10:01 Zeg9 PilzAdam, it isn't really possible to do these screens, or it would require a static/global "menuclouds" variable
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10:01 john_minetest smoke_fumus: I wanted to make a raven anyway. Anyone can use it.
10:01 smoke_fumus oh okay.
10:01 Zeg9 It is possible to make a blue background during that screens, though
10:02 PilzAdam and what hinders you from doing the static variable?
10:02 Zeg9 I'm unsure where to store it
10:02 PilzAdam in main
10:03 Zeg9 yeah but loading screen is in game.cpp
10:03 PilzAdam game.cpp includes main.h
10:03 Zeg9 Okay then
10:03 Zeg9 So clouds should be there for *all* loading screens?
10:03 VanessaE yup
10:03 PilzAdam yes
10:03 VanessaE if at all possible
10:04 PilzAdam would it also fix that the clouds change when deleting worlds?
10:04 VanessaE never noticed that
10:04 Zeg9 Maybe, I'm not sure about this.
10:06 sapier1 http://animalsmod.comuf.com/factions_mod/classfactions.html api suggestion for a factions mod
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10:07 PilzAdam sapier1, s/del_faction/delete_faction
10:07 sapier1 pilzadam did you have time to check if those mob concentrations you experienced is really a result of activity boundary?
10:07 PilzAdam no, I was sleeping
10:08 sapier1 what you really need sleep? ;-)
10:08 smoke_fumus sapier1: fucked up hair, eyebags, redeyes, twitches. do you need any more reasons? :D
10:09 sapier1 you've got eternety to sleep ... should be enogh for everyone ;-)
10:09 smoke_fumus spirit can. body cannot. my personal record is 56 hours. first time playing minecraft survival (it was alpha 1.3.1 back then)
10:10 VanessaE 56 hours? O.O
10:10 smoke_fumus yep
10:10 sapier1 56 hours? wow
10:10 VanessaE damn, and here I thought I was doing good to go 36 hours in a stretch
10:10 smoke_fumus xD
10:10 sapier1 I'm about 50h max as far as I remember
10:10 smoke_fumus lesser records i usually take are 45-48 hours. was 3 in a row through 12 hour sleeps while i were coding gridhopper
10:11 VanessaE now, give me enough caffeine and an intense-enough interest and I might be able to stay up longer..  but dayum
10:12 sapier1 but takes some hours to recover from beeing awake for 50h ... less when I was young but now I need at least 8h
10:12 smoke_fumus VanessaE: give me intense enough interest, few gallons of pepsi, and good food
10:12 smoke_fumus sapier1: 8h will not do it.
10:12 smoke_fumus 18.
10:12 VanessaE heh
10:12 sapier1 will do
10:12 smoke_fumus i slept 18 hours after that
10:12 sapier1 I've never slept for more than 12 h after that my back starts to hurt ;-)
10:13 smoke_fumus i were sleeping on extra-soft matress
10:13 smoke_fumus that helped :D
10:13 TheUndeadRaven left #minetest
10:13 VanessaE memory foam ftw :)
10:13 Zeg9 PilzAdam: should the menu clouds be the same as the ingame ones?
10:13 sapier1 I hate soft matresses ... can't sleep on things like that at all
10:14 sapier1 but back to what I wanted to ask does anyone have ideas what features are might be missing in my factions mod suggestion?
10:14 PilzAdam Zeg9, what do you mean?
10:14 VanessaE Zeg9: see if you can carry the currently-selected game's splash/overlays over when in singleplayer mode
10:14 VanessaE else I don't see much reason to keep the clouds in sync
10:15 Zeg9 Never mind. They aren't the same color anyway
10:15 VanessaE OH I see what you meant.
10:15 smoke_fumus speaking of gridhopper. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/GridHopper/Gridhopper.xhtml this is earilier prototype.  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/gridhopper_beta3_exe.7z this is almost finished game
10:15 VanessaE there's no reason for that, no.
10:16 smoke_fumus half of levels is not there
10:16 smoke_fumus but level editor works
10:16 sfan5 !unmute *!*@*95.129.193.48
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10:17 sfan5 smoke_fumus: there is no unity web player for linux
10:17 smoke_fumus hang on let me assemble linux binary for ya
10:17 Zeg9 Now need to recompile everything since I modified main.h...
10:18 smoke_fumus sfan5: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9288177/bin-debug/gh_beta3_linuxBIN.tar
10:18 smoke_fumus here you go
10:18 smoke_fumus ch +x gridhopper.bin and launch
10:18 VanessaE tar?  jeez, at least compress it :)
10:18 smoke_fumus *chmod
10:18 smoke_fumus :p
10:18 iqualfragile sapier1: yeah, i like to sleep on the floor, too
10:18 smoke_fumus i don't have tools which gzip atm
10:18 sfan5 smoke_fumus: 404
10:19 sfan5 get 7zip
10:19 smoke_fumus sfan5: try again
10:19 iqualfragile no matresses at all
10:19 smoke_fumus oh come on its only 35 mb
10:19 VanessaE smoke_fumus: tar has built-in gzip/bzip2 I thought?
10:19 iqualfragile he has 7zip obviously
10:19 VanessaE oh
10:19 iqualfragile no it does not
10:19 sapier1 floor is a little bit to hard imho ;-)
10:19 iqualfragile it uses gzip
10:19 VanessaE file.tar.7z then ;)
10:19 smoke_fumus VanessaE: no it isn't. targz has
10:19 iqualfragile and bzip
10:19 iqualfragile 2
10:19 sapier1 at least if it's not a soft meadow ;-)
10:19 iqualfragile to compress
10:19 smoke_fumus tar on itself is pseudoarchive
10:20 VanessaE ah, I wasn't sure.  I only ever go direct with jcvf/jxvf
10:20 iqualfragile smoke_fumus: well, its exactly what it states to be: a tape archiver
10:20 smoke_fumus true
10:25 Zeg9 Gotta go, bye all
10:26 smoke_fumus sfan5: so.
10:26 sfan5 smoke_fumus: downloading..
10:26 sfan5 with 142 KB/s
10:26 smoke_fumus o_O
10:26 sfan5 my internet speed: 800 KB/s
10:26 smoke_fumus x.x
10:26 smoke_fumus stop download
10:26 smoke_fumus let me pack it...
10:27 sfan5 no
10:27 sfan5 i'm almost done
10:27 sfan5 done
10:30 sfan5 smoke_fumus: its a bit too big for my screen and i don't understand how it works
10:30 smoke_fumus uh. what's your screensize?
10:30 sfan5 1366x768
10:30 sfan5 useable by application: 1301x760
10:31 iqualfragile sfan5: thats a strange screensize
10:31 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: no that's 16:9 regular laptop
10:31 sfan5 iqualfragile: no?
10:31 smoke_fumus sfan5: it should show launch screen with resolution setup
10:32 iqualfragile it is?
10:32 smoke_fumus ugh...
10:32 * smoke_fumus bootsup linux vm
10:32 sfan5 smoke_fumus: first i see "powered by unity" and then it shows the main menu
10:32 smoke_fumus o
10:32 smoke_fumus shit
10:32 john_minetest My laptop is 1600*900.
10:32 smoke_fumus sfan5: hang on.
10:33 * sfan5 wishes he had a bigger screen
10:33 smoke_fumus sfan5: ~/Library/Preferences/Unity/WebPlayerPrefs check there
10:33 smoke_fumus there should be picturesquegames/gridhopper
10:33 smoke_fumus or something like that
10:33 smoke_fumus in there should be a file
10:33 sfan5 smoke_fumus: uhh... that path looks like mac os
10:34 iqualfragile 1920x1080
10:34 iqualfragile indeed
10:34 smoke_fumus sfan5: pardon. /home/your user/.config/unity3d
10:34 iqualfragile --> ~/.config/unity3d
10:35 sfan5 smoke_fumus: 1024x768 what a strange setting..
10:35 smoke_fumus regular one
10:35 smoke_fumus set to 800x600
10:35 smoke_fumus should do it
10:36 sfan5 smoke_fumus: i'll set it to fullscreen
10:37 smoke_fumus controls are arrowkeys/wasd + space for interaction. q/e for swapping group/rotation(state) in editor mode , rightclick/leftclick to set/destroy block in editor mode, mousewheel to scroll inbetween components in editor mode
10:38 sfan5 smoke_fumus: nice game
10:38 smoke_fumus yeh.
10:38 sfan5 first level is a bit hard for a first level
10:39 smoke_fumus it is introduction
10:39 smoke_fumus wait..what do you mean hard? O_o
10:40 smoke_fumus i though it is extremely easy
10:40 smoke_fumus you move box out of bunker, place it on platform, rotate 1 mirror to open path and get into teleporter pad
10:42 sfan5 smoke_fumus: it could be easier for an intrudction level
10:42 sfan5 *introduction
10:42 smoke_fumus O.O you telling me this is hard? jeezuz.
10:42 sfan5 its not hard
10:43 sfan5 but to show the basics it could be better
10:43 smoke_fumus let the user figure it out himself
10:43 sfan5 !deop
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11:02 smoke_fumus sfan5: well, thing is figuring out those few movements is a trivial task. i'm not making game for retards. as far as my knowledge goes its more interesting to break down how game works
11:09 smoke_fumus like a chineese puzzle. nobody will tell you how it works-  you should figure it out yourself
11:16 VanessaE bbl
11:22 john_minetest smoke_fumus: The third level is a bit too easy imp
11:22 john_minetest *imo
11:28 john_minetest and the red beam in the 4th level is useless
11:32 sfan5 john_minetest: no, it isn't
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11:44 john_minetest lvl 7 can be beaten without moving ANY box.
11:45 john_minetest sfan5: if you step on the red one, jump on the red pole it stays down. green laser is activated so you can walk through.
11:45 john_minetest ^lvl4
11:46 john_minetest lvl 7 is just going around the brick and going through all the switches until the end and then left.
11:47 john_minetest Some levels are quite complicated but there are a few possibilities to simply cheat in the game. See lvl 7.
11:48 john_minetest The game principle itself is great, the leveldesign should be improved a bit.
11:48 PilzAdam bbl
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11:50 messa4 would it be hard to create mod with turn based RPG dungeon crawl game?
11:51 sapier1 rpg isn't hard but turn based is
11:51 Calinou turn based RPG? ._.
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11:55 messa4 yeah
11:55 messa4 like old school games
11:56 messa4 turn based becasue whole game is based on nice grid anyway. so easy to move stuff or calculate movment
11:58 john_minetest "to create mod with turn based RPG" <- a minetest mod?
11:58 john_minetest Minetest is completely different to a turn-based game.
11:59 messa4 why? engine can be realtime. just movment of game object will be turn based :)
12:01 messa4 anyway. please do it for me. for monday
12:02 sfan5 messa4: we are not your magic wish unicorn, which you can tell "do this for me, for <some date>"
12:02 messa4 but you are designers
12:02 messa4 and u know c++
12:03 messa4 so its your job :D
12:03 messa4 no more excuses
12:03 sfan5 nope
12:03 messa4 just kidding
12:04 smoke_fumus john_minetest: switches fire back up eh
12:04 smoke_fumus when you step out from them
12:05 messa4 btw
12:05 messa4 john_minetest: and smoke: u remember games from 90" yeah? doom, quake 1 etc
12:05 messa4 wolfensteain
12:06 john_minetest smoke_fumus: In lvl 7 i can go around the rock on the switch. The pole will go down. When I step on the pole it won't go up again.
12:06 smoke_fumus true that
12:06 john_minetest So I can go through the whole long chamber, then at the end left and then into the portal
12:06 john_minetest without even moving one single stone
12:06 smoke_fumus messa4: yes and i remember way more games from 90".
12:06 smoke_fumus awkward
12:07 messa4 tell me: those games were looking much better then minecraft but had much lower RENDERING requirments. Why minetest is not written in the same way - to use FAST software renderer instead heavy opengl graphics - that is HEAVY but looks like shit
12:07 smoke_fumus shouldn't work like that
12:07 messa4 minetest*
12:07 john_minetest messa4: I was 5 in the end of the '90s.
12:07 messa4 that explains a lot
12:07 smoke_fumus messa4: you are not getting how complicated voxel structs of minetest are
12:07 messa4 i do
12:07 smoke_fumus you don't
12:07 smoke_fumus you simply don't
12:07 messa4 there were many voxel games back then. also with lower requirments for rendering
12:08 messa4 anyway - evetryhing in mineraft is just blocks
12:08 smoke_fumus messa4: and again. you are not getting it at slightest
12:08 Calinou dat assumption: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89048#p89048
12:08 messa4 each block is like 8 polygons +texture
12:08 smoke_fumus 1 classical voxel = 1 pixel in 3d space = xyz vector + color property
12:08 messa4 so why the hell its so heavy to render?
12:09 messa4 smoke_fumus: how old are u?
12:09 smoke_fumus 21
12:09 messa4 same story
12:09 messa4 go and play quake 2
12:09 messa4 with software renderer u will understand
12:09 messa4 awsome graphics with minimum rendering requirments
12:09 messa4 SOFTWARE
12:09 smoke_fumus messa4: 1 minecraft voxel is - 12 triangles, each has 3 verticles, each  verticle has xyz property and UV property with XY vector2 coords + type of block and its behavior
12:10 messa4 no opengl
12:10 smoke_fumus this is 16 times more data per voxel
12:10 smoke_fumus you are. a FUCKING IDIOT.
12:10 Calinou tripod and tripod2 walk into a bar
12:10 messa4 smoke_fumus: why so much data for one stupid box?
12:10 Calinou messa4: it is heavy to render because there is zero remipping
12:10 smoke_fumus messa4: learn how meshes being built in opengl dumbas
12:10 smoke_fumus *s
12:10 Calinou faces are rendered indidually in most cases
12:10 messa4 dude
12:11 messa4 as i said
12:11 messa4 quake 2 was able to run without opengl
12:11 smoke_fumus you are a fucking dumbass who talks idiocity and actually don't know jack about internal mechanics
12:11 Calinou <messa4> tell me: those games were looking much better then minecraft but had much lower RENDERING requirments.
12:11 messa4 and any hardware acceleration
12:11 messa4 so why minetest cant do that?
12:11 Calinou can you make the difference between static worlds and prebuilt BSP maps and voxels?
12:11 Calinou also, minecraft looks fine
12:11 john_minetest smoke_fumus: PM
12:11 smoke_fumus messa4: quake 2 doesn't use voxels you retard. it uses few polygons per wall
12:11 messa4 its looks WORSE tehn quake 2
12:11 Calinou in quake, you can't put resolutions > 640×480 without a better graphic client
12:11 Calinou then > than
12:11 Calinou spell properly
12:11 messa4 Calinou: i can
12:12 Calinou with darkplaces, yes
12:12 messa4 Calinou: quake 2 worked nice up to like 1600x1200
12:12 Calinou try doing that in classic quake
12:12 Calinou now try 1920×1080
12:12 messa4 from 320x240 up
12:12 smoke_fumus messa4: again, dumbass. read what i've said.
12:12 smoke_fumus those are completely different algorythms for building level geometry
12:12 Calinou also, Q1/Q2/Q3 were very CPU centric because graphic cards were much slower back then
12:13 Calinou so if you have high end CPU + high end GPU you'll be CPU limited, almost alway
12:13 Calinou always*
12:13 messa4 Calinou: it ran on pentium 1...
12:13 smoke_fumus Calinou: this is not the case here. that idiot assumes that Q2  better then minetest although both use completely different approach to render and show geometry
12:13 * Calinou sets that pentium 1's ratio to 3333
12:13 smoke_fumus q2 - bsp trees and fixed level geometry with portal viewport splicing
12:13 messa4 Calinou: anyway: whats stopping minecraft from using polygons ?
12:14 messa4 minetest*
12:14 smoke_fumus messa4: dumbass.
12:14 smoke_fumus it uses polygons
12:14 smoke_fumus minetest voxels - dynamic direct path of rendering  with releasing only technically visible quads into fov
12:14 smoke_fumus nothing getting culled down like in bsp
12:14 smoke_fumus and you can't
12:14 smoke_fumus because bsp is fixed
12:15 messa4 smoke_fumus: so it would be impossible to create minecraft like engine using quake2 engine?
12:15 smoke_fumus you can technically use quadtree but direct algorythms just easier to comprehend
12:15 smoke_fumus messa4: read what bsp is.
12:15 messa4 i mean Calinou *
12:15 Calinou there is occlusion culling, with opengl 2
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12:15 Calinou 2.0 or higher*
12:15 smoke_fumus Calinou: its doing all the work
12:15 messa4 Calinou: and without opengl? omg why u are so obsessed with it
12:16 smoke_fumus you still need manually cull most of polygons
12:16 smoke_fumus i mean not even cull
12:16 smoke_fumus not mention them to render at all
12:16 messa4 smoke_fumus: i dont talk with u. u disrespected me like 30 times
12:16 smoke_fumus so it will get only polygons which can be visible
12:16 Calinou ugly? looks pretty decent to me: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82342922/minetest/screenshot_2302091633.png
12:16 messa4 also u lack historical knowlege about game engines.
12:16 smoke_fumus messa4: because you are a retard with jack shit of knowledge
12:16 Calinou better than quake 2
12:16 smoke_fumus who assumes shit
12:16 smoke_fumus speaks shit
12:16 smoke_fumus and understands jack shit
12:17 Calinou aniso + 4× FSAA + 256× texture pack
12:17 smoke_fumus PERIOD.
12:17 Calinou and 128 view distance
12:17 messa4 Calinou: as i said
12:17 Calinou runs at 65+ FPS just fine
12:17 messa4 its look like shit . its just big boxes
12:17 messa4 i can get the same view in quake 2
12:17 messa4 question is: why quake is able to do it on pentium 1 without opengl and minetest cant?
12:17 Calinou lol messa4, go back to phoronix
12:18 arsdragonfly joined #minetest
12:18 Calinou same view?
12:18 messa4 sure
12:18 Calinou try enabling FSAA and anisotropic filtering without mods
12:18 Calinou and on a pentium I
12:18 Calinou with 65FPS or more
12:18 smoke_fumus Calinou: stop it
12:18 Calinou in 1920×1080
12:18 smoke_fumus STOP IT
12:18 Calinou no u
12:18 messa4 Calinou:
12:18 smoke_fumus you are not getting it either
12:18 smoke_fumus messa4: because. quake 1 uses static geometry while BSP tree culling down all unescessary poligons by sector  of view
12:18 messa4 quake 2 looks better then blocks in minecraft...
12:18 smoke_fumus fucking idiot
12:18 iqualfragile uhm… guys what are you fighting about?
12:19 messa4 smoke_fumus: CAN U STOP acting like child? dont disrecpect me!!!
12:19 Calinou nodes don't necessarily look bad
12:19 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: that idiot has jack shit of a knowledge about mc-like voxels and talking retardcy
12:19 Calinou a block is 16×16×16 nodes by the way
12:19 smoke_fumus messa4: can you stop being an idiot? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSP
12:19 Calinou quake 2 looks way worse
12:19 smoke_fumus messa4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_space_partitioning
12:19 messa4 smoke_fumus: I DONT TALK WITH U ANYMORE. u called me "dumb" "fucker" etc.
12:19 messa4 go to psychiatrist
12:19 smoke_fumus messa4: for a good reason
12:20 john_minetest .....
12:20 smoke_fumus john_minetest: give me a second
12:20 messa4 Calinou: would it be possible to write minecraft/test without opengl?
12:20 smoke_fumus i'm trying to explain to that bufoon how that works
12:20 iqualfragile ok: please stop calling each others names
12:20 iqualfragile messa4: no, it would not
12:20 smoke_fumus messa4: tell me. how do you render geometry without opengl. how do you implement software?
12:20 iqualfragile you need something wich displays stuff
12:21 smoke_fumus how do you position 3d geometry and display it
12:21 smoke_fumus tell me
12:21 messa4 smoke_fumus: there are millions 3D [full 3d] games with software renderers for example: HALF LIFE or QUAKE 2
12:21 iqualfragile wut?
12:21 iqualfragile nope
12:21 messa4 yes
12:21 iqualfragile they use direct x
12:21 messa4 go and check
12:21 messa4 nope
12:21 smoke_fumus SH
12:21 smoke_fumus SH BOTH OF YOU
12:21 messa4 there is software renderer in options
12:21 smoke_fumus they have software mode
12:21 iqualfragile give me a link
12:21 messa4 seriouslyt
12:21 iqualfragile -.-
12:21 messa4 go and check
12:21 smoke_fumus messa4: and how does they use it? what's their internal software renderer?
12:22 iqualfragile ok… yeah, ok they have a software render mode, but guess what it uses
12:22 messa4 games back then suppoerted 3 rendereers: opengl, directx OR software
12:22 iqualfragile right: directx
12:22 smoke_fumus messa4: i'll tell you what it is - it is same opengl 1.1 only moved to work on cpu and not gpu
12:22 iqualfragile and software just reffers to using your cpu instead of your gpu
12:22 smoke_fumus since back then most of pc's had only display-port 1mb mem gpu
12:22 messa4 go and check guys. no wonder that u are so angru if u NEVER PLAYED THOSE GAMES without opengl card
12:22 celeron55 quake2 looks like this: http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/quake-ii/screenshots/gameShotId,615425/
12:22 smoke_fumus messa4: dumbass.
12:22 messa4 ITS NOT
12:22 smoke_fumus IT IS
12:23 smoke_fumus software mode is opengl moved onto cpu
12:23 messa4 it was not opengl on software - it was not blurry like surface
12:23 smoke_fumus in 80% of cases
12:23 messa4 NO ITS NOT
12:23 Calinou messa4: video_driver = software
12:23 messa4 it was pure software renderer
12:23 messa4 no blurness
12:23 messa4 its not like mesa
12:23 iqualfragile can somebody please kick smoke_fumus, even throught he is right he uses the wrong words
12:23 messa4 OMG
12:23 messa4 just go nad check guys
12:23 smoke_fumus messa4: you dumbass. blurry - antialiasing and filtering.
12:23 smoke_fumus you can switch filtering to point and  get your huge pixels
12:23 messa4 smoke_fumus: u dont know what u talking about
12:23 smoke_fumus i know it perfectly
12:23 messa4 no u dont
12:23 smoke_fumus because i developing such stuff
12:24 celeron55 as a matter of fact, neither of you knows what you are talking about
12:24 messa4 u are calling me "Fucker" all day
12:24 smoke_fumus you are an idiot who knows jack shit
12:24 celeron55 you both probably should just stop
12:24 smoke_fumus messa4: you deserve each single word i called you
12:24 smoke_fumus TWICE
12:24 messa4 and u never played quake 2 or half life without opengl
12:24 messa4 ignore
12:24 john_minetest /join #off-topic
12:24 smoke_fumus messa4: i played doom2 when it came out
12:24 smoke_fumus so you better watch your retarded words
12:24 messa4 any good soul here?
12:24 smoke_fumus little man
12:24 messa4 with above 25 age
12:24 messa4 [quake 2, HL etc]
12:24 smoke_fumus and knowledge of elementary school (in vg)
12:25 iqualfragile i request halfop (or whatever is the least required privilege to kick people)
12:25 messa4 and sane. unlike previous person that i was forced to mute
12:25 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: mate, i'm being sincere. that idiot just disgraces and doesn't understand jack
12:25 smoke_fumus but has attitude
12:25 smoke_fumus i'm culling it as i can
12:25 smoke_fumus although my methods are..well crap
12:26 celeron55 < messa4> so its your job
12:26 iqualfragile it does not matter, there is no reason to call him names
12:26 celeron55 for sure; how much will you pay?
12:26 john_minetest smoke_fumus: 2nd attempt to just-beam you the video timed out. can you plz click download? New link coming in PM.
12:26 messa4 celeron55: whats my job?
12:26 celeron55 messa4: i am quoting you
12:26 messa4 i was kidding with that :)
12:26 messa4 celeron55: are u over 25?
12:27 celeron55 i'm just a bit over 1337
12:27 iqualfragile im 1338
12:27 messa4 im serious buddy :)
12:27 messa4 got some questions about software rendering and minetest. but young ppl dont understand it at all or dont belive
12:27 smoke_fumus see?
12:27 messa4 coz all they know is opengl/directx
12:28 celeron55 so how many 3D games have you implemented?
12:28 messa4 one in qbasic :)
12:28 john_minetest <celeron55> i'm just a bit over 1337 | no, you are over 9000.
12:28 celeron55 messa4: it rendered in full HD and looked better than MT, right?
12:28 messa4 no
12:28 Calinou <messa4> its not like mesa
12:29 Calinou mesa is not a software renderer
12:29 Calinou again: go back to phoronix
12:29 messa4 its emulating opengl
12:29 Calinou "hey, they really need to fix reclocking :rolleyes:"
12:29 messa4 in software
12:29 sapier1 mesa contains a software renderer as far as I know
12:29 Calinou no
12:29 Calinou mesa uses graphics card...
12:29 Calinou it's a free GL implementation
12:29 messa4 software based
12:29 sapier1 yes if available but it has a software renderer too ... at least older versions
12:29 smoke_fumus Calinou: you actually can hardwire gl calls to cpu execution - but that's phoronix again
12:29 Final joined #minetest
12:30 messa4 anyway: any sane person here with +25 age? and some dos expirience? etc.
12:30 sapier1 if I remember correct latest mesa version dropped software rendering ... or am I mixing this up with reactos ... not quite sure
12:30 smoke_fumus can somebody tell him that i'm sorry?
12:30 sapier1 no we're all <20 ;-P
12:30 john_minetest messa4: From smoke_fumus: "alright. i'm sorry i were a bit edged-out."
12:30 messa4 k
12:31 smoke_fumus messa4: ok now listen. and try to comprehend on the go. but before i start explaining - leave your typical human herd attitude 'i'm older than you - i know everything' outside of the window.
12:31 sapier1 to be more serious as far as I know you'll find almost any level of experience within mt community
12:31 smoke_fumus messa4: can you read me?
12:32 messa4 i know u got expirience. but i need to speak with someone who touched and saw the old technology - young ppl cant understand it :|
12:32 Calinou smoke_fumus: yes, llvmpipe
12:32 smoke_fumus messa4: i touched dos. i were programming wolfenstein-like raycasting engines
12:32 Calinou have fun playing openarena at 30FPS on a 3960X
12:32 smoke_fumus and i know enough about technology and its implementations up to the point of 1984
12:32 kahrl messa4: there's a reason quake2 maps use fairly simple geometry and often consist of small rooms
12:32 Calinou george orwell approves
12:33 Calinou ^
12:33 kahrl the engine can't handle open spaces at all
12:33 Calinou paintball2 is a "good" example of this
12:33 smoke_fumus kahrl: hur hur hur. it can :D
12:33 messa4 kahrl: u rember software renderer from q2?
12:33 Calinou (quake2 engine, very open maps)
12:33 Calinou make a very open map with lots of detailed geometry
12:33 smoke_fumus there were q1 mod for huge maps for +80players combat
12:33 messa4 remember*
12:33 Calinou huehuehue 30 FPS
12:33 smoke_fumus no, not detailed
12:33 smoke_fumus but opened, non the less
12:33 celeron55 Calinou: ...run that on a pentium 1 and you get 2 FPS? 8)
12:34 sfan5 wow! xz did 129,7 MB -> 19,4 MB
12:34 Calinou run it on a celeron and get 55 FPS!
12:34 messa4 :(
12:34 smoke_fumus messa4: software rendering story for steamers. software rendering was middle-chain inbetween accessible home computing video accelerators and professional gpu's which were existant since 1991
12:34 smoke_fumus such as sillicon graphics stations and powerVR
12:34 sapier1 I doubt software rendering will be faster than any current graphics hardware (even intel graphics)
12:35 messa4 im not saying that
12:35 messa4 im just asking who remember it. so i can talk with taht person without problems
12:35 sapier1 so what's your usecase for software rendering? academic reasons only?
12:35 messa4 or half-life software renderer
12:35 smoke_fumus messa4: first software rendering (286) were dull and very simplistic - simple raycasting with splitting screen onto vertical lines
12:35 messa4 no. i have some related minetest question
12:36 smoke_fumus and drawing columns of pixels with size of column == distance
12:37 messa4 no one?
12:37 smoke_fumus the software rendering you see in q1 and q2 is nothing more than rudimentary copy of opengl calls written for direct cpu calling. the thing you were calling 'blurry' is bilenear filtering. switch filtering to point - and textures will be pixelated as much as you want to
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12:37 smoke_fumus point or nearest neighbor (synonims in filter techniques)
12:37 celeron55 messa4: there was a very odd guy in here some years back who was making some kind of a raycasting voxel engine on some very obscure platform
12:38 celeron55 all i remember is that it ran like crap and nothing came from it 8)
12:38 messa4 i know who. he posted some nice videos on youtube
12:38 smoke_fumus celeron55: raycasting has nothing to do with q/hl software mode
12:38 messa4 about FUEL
12:38 messa4 game
12:38 smoke_fumus messa4: so, did you read what i've said?
12:39 smoke_fumus *bilinear filtering
12:39 messa4 anyway nvm. and to young guys: download half life or quake2 or unreal tournament - [those games are from 1998-99] and u can use pure software renderer in them. [or opengl if u like or directx]. it was possible. try it out. otherwise u missing A LOT of history
12:40 smoke_fumus dumbass.
12:40 smoke_fumus a fucking ignorant dumbass.
12:40 celeron55 i don't see the point
12:40 smoke_fumus i hate that kind of human herd idiots.
12:42 celeron55 i also don't get how one can associate "human herd" with that behavior
12:43 celeron55 that seems more like some kind of blind nostalgia
12:43 smoke_fumus celeron55: blind and dumb nostalgia + behavior of 'NANANANA dont' hear you, i'm better than you, i have some experience and i know none of you have, NANANA' - classical human herd which assumes he is smarter than everybody
12:44 smoke_fumus in my perfect country those should be shot to death on sight
12:44 celeron55 well whatever, something like that
12:44 iqualfragile well… i would not want to live in your "perfect country"
12:44 iqualfragile i guess gue are from 'merca?
12:44 smoke_fumus no i'm not
12:45 smoke_fumus i'm just telling that modern society commonly not prevents developing of such behaviors
12:45 smoke_fumus and not treats them like inapropriate (at least hard enough)
12:45 iqualfragile sfan5: yeah, xz is quite impressive
12:46 sfan5 !g spk "archive format"
12:46 MinetestBot sfan5: https://github.com/sfan5?tab=repositories
12:46 sfan5 hah!
12:46 celeron55 smoke_fumus: "modern society" is quite an arbitrary term; "modern western society" is better
12:47 smoke_fumus not only western no
12:47 smoke_fumus russian and cis in general as well
12:47 celeron55 well, russian is quite western
12:47 * smoke_fumus chuckle
12:47 smoke_fumus that makes sense
12:47 celeron55 as far as culture goes
12:47 Koren joined #minetest
12:47 john_minetest In some asian states, people are killed for saying wat they think if other people don't like it.
12:48 smoke_fumus i've done some digging. http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/shlomif-qoheleth.html looks like that messa4 guy is around 15
12:48 celeron55 eg. japanese culture probably differs a whole lot in this thing
12:48 smoke_fumus celeron55: its built on harder respect circles more
12:49 smoke_fumus and traditionalism
12:51 sfan5 in case anyone needs python 3.3.1: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30267315/python3.3m-linux-amd64.spk.xz
12:52 smoke_fumus iqualfragile: celeron55: so yea, that messa4 guy is actually a troll
12:52 smoke_fumus ignoring right users, discussing with half-right ones, stating ignorant facts
12:52 smoke_fumus that's skilled troll behavior
12:53 smoke_fumus sfan5: isuggest you ban him for good
12:53 celeron55 why would anyone want to waste their time like that
12:54 smoke_fumus developed agressive sociopathy, finding enjoyment in angering others, low selfrespect
12:54 celeron55 also it's ridiculous how long people care to reply to such
12:54 smoke_fumus those are few
12:55 smoke_fumus trolling is certanly just way to redirect your internal mental pains.
12:55 smoke_fumus by harming mental stability of others and laughing at them
12:55 celeron55 also i don't think trolling is a good word for what messa4 did
12:55 smoke_fumus he did some form of it
12:56 smoke_fumus as far as i can dig into psychology
12:56 smoke_fumus this just looks like trolling. i was right from the start because i know the basics and advances of such things as software/hardware rendering, internal works. if you read his lines carefully - he misstates himself at least dozen of times
12:56 smoke_fumus and if you will read log i dropped in link
12:57 smoke_fumus he states that he is 36 there
12:57 smoke_fumus but he said he is 25 here
12:57 sapier1 I personaly prefere good arguments ;-) like the one yesterday night ;-)
12:57 smoke_fumus read cauciously and give meaning to all mis-statements - i've did so. he is a troll.
12:57 smoke_fumus ban him for good.
12:57 celeron55 i think that trolling is stating non-facts as facts and arguing in retarded ways with the intention that it is funny to some people more than the troller itself, poking fun at those "being trolled"
12:58 john_minetest Well, if he discusses on, it was our fault because we fed the troll...
12:58 smoke_fumus true...
12:58 smoke_fumus still
12:58 smoke_fumus let's ban him.
12:58 celeron55 that's useless; he's not coming back
12:59 celeron55 and even if he comes, everyone knows he's not worth talking with
12:59 sfan5 !mute *!*@unaffiliated/messa4
12:59 sfan5 just in case..
12:59 smoke_fumus :3 thank you
12:59 sapier1 do you recognize how much time we're wasting to that guy? ;-)
12:59 celeron55 i do
12:59 celeron55 and i hate it
12:59 Issa joined #minetest
12:59 Issa hello
12:59 Issa im plyed on ubuntu
12:59 Issa and i m tring to play in full sccreen
13:00 smoke_fumus sapier1: but but! http://xkcd.com/386/
13:00 Issa but the fullscreen not workong
13:00 smoke_fumus xD
13:00 Issa so the probléme i have only show minetest on hal of the screen
13:00 Issa so it's a bug ?
13:00 Issa for the fulls screen :
13:00 Issa screenW = 1368
13:01 Issa screenH = 768
13:01 Issa fullscreen = true
13:03 kahrl have you tried other resolutions?
13:04 kahrl I assume your monitor doesn't support that resolution
13:13 celeron55 maybe change fullscreen_bpp
13:14 celeron55 fullscreen isn't particularly well supported in any case though (from our nor from irrlicht's side)
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13:27 smoke_fumus i still wonder why irrlicht and not to example orgre
13:33 Koren why not irrlicht ?
13:37 NakedFury why irrlicht was chosen as the game engines?
13:37 sapier1 switching engine isn't an easy task so unless there's veryveryvery good reason to do it it won't be done ;-)
13:39 Koren I dont know why it was chosen for minetest but usually it's for its light weight, good perfs and high portability
13:39 Koren + its easy to learn and code with
13:49 KrisEike joined #minetest
13:49 KrisEike o/
13:56 PilzAdam joined #minetest
13:59 celeron55 i don't think i saw ogre in any of the 3d engine comparison listings i found when i was researching what to use for my first ever 3D project
13:59 celeron55 yes, this is that one
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14:00 KrisEike Howdy celeron55.
14:00 KrisEike Figured i'd try your game again, been a while since i last tried it.
14:00 KrisEike Looks like it's gotten quite far :)
14:01 celeron55 i'm not sure if i remember your nick, but that must be a loooong time ago
14:01 KrisEike Haha, it is.
14:01 celeron55 it's less of my project than ever these days though, so don't blame me if it sucks
14:01 KrisEike Oh?
14:01 KrisEike Busy with school/work?
14:03 celeron55 i'm not the kind of guy who gets glued to one project for the rest of his life; i have many things in the works as usual
14:03 celeron55 (also work)
14:04 celeron55 (also less interest in first-person block games)
14:05 KrisEike Hahaha
14:05 KrisEike I've been getting a lot of downloads for my texture pack from Minetst
14:05 KrisEike minetest*
14:05 KrisEike Figured i could update it.
14:12 celeron55 i do commit some stuff once in a while, and i handle the main website... and grumble to people who don't focus on the right things
14:12 KrisEike lol
14:13 KrisEike How do i get my TP on the POPULAR part of the site? :P
14:13 celeron55 bribery and corruption
14:13 celeron55 :-D
14:13 KrisEike Works for me
14:13 KrisEike ;D
14:14 KrisEike Once i finish up working on my Minecraft server i might get started
14:14 KrisEike Also this is the pack www.minecraftforum.net/topic/144770-hdcraft
14:14 KrisEike Not sure if people remember it
14:16 KrisEike 43 downloads this month
14:16 KrisEike and its outdated as shit
14:16 KrisEike :p
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14:20 MinetestBot GIT: kahrl commited to minetest/minetest: Drop IrrlichtDevice when running --speedtests 3332f606ed 2013-05-09T07:18:26-07:00 http://git.io/__J3hw
14:24 KrisEike This is looking very good celeron55
14:24 KrisEike I still hate the sound when walking on grass though ;D
14:25 celeron55 if you know better, you could propose some better sounds
14:26 PilzAdam someone really needs to sit down and create a soundpack for minetest_game
14:26 KrisEike I'd help you out but i don't have any good recording software
14:26 KrisEike How deep is the world? I'm at 170 blocks down now
14:26 KrisEike :p
14:27 PilzAdam 31k
14:27 KrisEike !?
14:27 celeron55 ...deep enough
14:27 KrisEike LOL
14:27 KrisEike Way too much for me XD
14:27 KrisEike IMO 5000 is more than enough
14:27 KrisEike :p
14:28 sapier1 just try /teleport 0,-30990,0
14:28 KrisEike I cant see anythin
14:28 KrisEike lol
14:29 celeron55 there should probably be some terrible monsters stopping you from going there though, but upstream development on that part competes in speed with snails
14:30 KrisEike celeron55, THe walking on gravel sound is .. strange. You could just use the same sound as the breaking sound
14:31 KrisEike IMO it sounds just as good
14:31 KrisEike :)
14:32 MinetestBot GIT: kahrl commited to minetest/minetest: Add --videomodes option to show available video modes 3b1c3ac678 2013-05-09T07:30:04-07:00 http://git.io/gzK0MQ
14:32 KrisEike 30912 blocks down, and it stops.
14:32 KrisEike YOU LIED TO MEH
14:33 KrisEike In all seriousness, this is impressive
14:33 whirm where does the common mods dir goes? in the mods/ dir?
14:33 PilzAdam KrisEike, well, it goes up the same amount of blocks
14:33 KrisEike what the fuck :p
14:33 sfan5 whirm: the common mods go into "games/common"
14:34 whirm sfan5: and the fire mod should be found by the mobs mod then?
14:34 sfan5 whirm: ..yes
14:34 whirm hm..
14:34 KrisEike Very interesting game
14:34 KrisEike Has a lot of potentioal
14:34 KrisEike potential ..
14:35 celeron55 KrisEike: you'll be let down by the horizontal limits though, that too are 31k (altough any sane person understands it's enough there too)
14:36 KrisEike What do you mean celeron55 ?
14:36 celeron55 actually, that implied that you wouldn't be sane, sorry for that 8D
14:36 whirm sfan5: it says default and fire are missing :?
14:37 sfan5 whirm: download "https://github.com/minetest/common/archive/master.zip" and extract that as "common" in the games folder
14:37 KrisEike celeron55, I would personally just make the game 15k blocks up and down
14:37 KrisEike Or 30
14:37 KrisEike Idk
14:37 KrisEike 60 sounds veeery much
14:38 celeron55 limiting it is really up to the game content - they're just the hard engine limits
14:38 KrisEike But it's amazing how it actually beats the living fuckshit out of MC
14:38 whirm sfan5: I'm checking out the master branch directly
14:38 celeron55 but the game content is kind of underdeveloped
14:38 KrisEike I mean.. MC with 256 blocks
14:38 KrisEike This with 60k XD
14:38 kahrl it doesn't actually cost anything to make it 64k instead of 16k
14:38 john_minetest joined #minetest
14:38 KrisEike Really?
14:38 KrisEike Same amount of FPS and such?
14:39 kahrl yeah, those blocks aren't generated or loaded unless you go
14:39 whirm sfan5: it says the mods are missing but if I load the world, I see mobs spawning
14:39 kahrl go there*
14:39 KrisEike Oooh nice.
14:39 sfan5 whirm: then "git clone git://github.com/minetest/common games/common"
14:39 sfan5 try that
14:39 KrisEike Though the there's 1 thing i dislike ..
14:39 KrisEike Why the fuck is there a nyan cat block? XD
14:39 sfan5 KrisEike: why not? ;)
14:39 whirm sfan5: that's what I'm doing
14:40 KrisEike Lol
14:40 KrisEike I guess there's no mobs yet?
14:40 KrisEike Since i can't find any, at all
14:40 whirm KrisEike: you need to get a separate mod for it
14:40 KrisEike Ah
14:40 KrisEike Shame.
14:40 KrisEike Oh well :)
14:42 celeron55 it's a real shame, but nobody has the balls to put in mobs in the development state they currently are in... and we don't have a proper plan for how to design gameplay related to mobs
14:42 KrisEike I see
14:42 KrisEike Not sure how hard it can be to adjust the gameplay
14:42 KrisEike Give the player a sword and voila
14:43 KrisEike ;D
14:43 celeron55 it's not hard, somebody just needs to sit down and do it
14:43 celeron55 and then listen to all the naysay about them not looking like crysis
14:43 whirm sfan5: I think its just the UI saying the mods are missing, I've killed a couple of sand mosters already
14:43 whirm XDD
14:43 KrisEike celeron55, Game still in alpha, mobs still in alpha.
14:44 KrisEike Your excuse for everything ;D
14:44 celeron55 that's know to work until you slap 1.0 on the exact same thing :D
14:44 Zeg9 joined #minetest
14:44 Calinou joined #minetest
14:44 Zeg9 Hi
14:44 sfan5 hi Zeg9
14:45 KrisEike celeron55, What's your gal for the game?
14:45 KrisEike Goal*
14:45 KrisEike Adventure, building? creativity?
14:45 KrisEike killing everything with a sword
14:46 Calinou playing minecraft
14:46 Calinou ^ the goal
14:46 KrisEike Oh god it's you.
14:46 KrisEike o_o
14:47 KrisEike Someone give ma IP to play on
14:47 KrisEike Quickz!
14:47 KrisEike give me a ip* lol
14:47 kahrl 127.0.0.1
14:47 celeron55 well the original vision was leaning towards stealing treasures from monsters, but since then focus has slipped to all kinds of related and non-related things
14:48 kahrl :D
14:48 sfan5 KrisEike: look in the server list
14:48 KrisEike kahrl, is trolling meh
14:48 sfan5 what about 127.64.12.9 ?
14:48 KrisEike found one anyway
14:48 KrisEike lol
14:48 Warr1024 joined #minetest
14:48 iqualfragile KrisEike: ip: 10.0.0.2
14:49 KrisEike celeron55, So.. mostly what MC does then
14:49 KrisEike ;D
14:49 KrisEike I'd say adding more creative blocks would be the best next step
14:50 KrisEike Chill with mobs untill ready
14:50 celeron55 anyone can do that by installing one of the hundred mods that add creative blocks
14:53 KrisEike Mods? fuck that shit
14:53 KrisEike Add it all to the game!
14:53 KrisEike :D
14:53 celeron55 well, mods are a whole different things in MT than in MC
14:53 kahrl the 'vanilla' game consists of mods :)
14:55 KrisEike Lost me tehre
14:55 KrisEike there*
14:55 celeron55 there is nothing to compile or decompile, nothing to patch, (usually) nothing to update for new MT versions, and making them requires nothing but a text editor and a copy of minetest
14:55 Warr1024 someone should strip the trailing slashes from the root folders in .gitignore, i.e. "/cache" instead of "/cache/".  When I use a symlink instead of a folder, git status is showing that as a modification...
14:56 sfan5 "16:53:06: ACTION[ServerThread]: ass joins game. List of players: ass"
14:56 sfan5 ^ what?
14:56 KrisEike Who stole the skins from minecraft? XD
14:56 KrisEike I see MC players runnin around in MT
14:57 sfan5 KrisEike: mc players?
14:57 sfan5 you mean the model?
14:57 KrisEike Yeah
14:57 KrisEike and textures
14:57 KrisEike :p
14:57 sfan5 ...
14:57 sfan5 the textures are not stolen from mc
14:57 KrisEike Ok not stolen
14:57 KrisEike bad word
14:57 KrisEike :p
14:57 Warr1024 depends on the server; some servers might use custom mc-like textures...
14:57 sfan5 (but the server you're playing on can change the textures)
14:57 sfan5 the model is kind of same looking
14:58 KrisEike Ah
14:58 KrisEike I found chairs
14:58 KrisEike :o
14:58 sfan5 that means the server you're playing on definitly has mods
14:58 Warr1024 another day, another compile...
14:59 Warr1024 takes like 20 minutes on my atom n450 netbook
14:59 KrisEike Does that mean i will see the mobs too?
14:59 Warr1024 KrisEike: try "/mods" command
15:00 sfan5 KrisEike: if you join a server with mods, your client will automatically download the mods
15:00 KrisEike Oh my god
15:00 KrisEike that's epic sfan5
15:00 Warr1024 yeah, client thinness rules
15:01 sfan5 KrisEike: actually just the textures, models, sounds and node/crafting/etc. definitons are downloaded
15:01 KrisEike I see
15:01 KrisEike Might be hard to make textures for all of this
15:11 MinetestBot GIT: Sapier at GMX dot net commited to minetest/minetest: Really fix itemdef memory leak ee1155fe6d 2013-05-09T08:08:23-07:00 http://git.io/a8xcWA
15:18 KrisEike Eh
15:18 KrisEike Where is the textures located?
15:19 PilzAdam KrisEike, textures are usually in the textures/ folder of mods
15:19 KrisEike Nothing there
15:19 KrisEike :p
15:19 PilzAdam texture packs are installed in $path_user/textures/all/
15:19 PilzAdam (without sub directories)
15:20 KrisEike Hm i need to download a tp then edit it then i guess
15:20 PilzAdam KrisEike, https://github.com/minetest/common/tree/master/mods/default/textures
15:20 KrisEike Ah
15:20 KrisEike Can i download all that at once?
15:21 PilzAdam you already have that
15:21 PilzAdam (in games/common/mods/default/textures/)
15:21 KrisEike Okay
15:21 KrisEike So i just add all these textures
15:21 KrisEike Into 1 folder
15:21 KrisEike and it works?
15:21 KrisEike No subfolders?
15:22 PilzAdam yes
15:22 KrisEike I see
15:22 KrisEike Well, thanks :)
15:22 KrisEike Will try that
15:22 KrisEike Dinner now.. afk ;)
15:23 tripod BAI!
15:24 smoke_fumus fuck yeah http://screencast.com/t/BRqyjmi0 http://screencast.com/t/AA3YFFQYFBz 3 day spent and finally i have some sort voxels
15:24 tripod Calinou: did you highlight me in this channel?
15:24 Issa smoke_fumus, what ide u use to o this ?
15:24 Issa is blender,  no ?
15:24 smoke_fumus that's unity 3d
15:25 Issa what u create  ?
15:25 smoke_fumus have you played x-com3 apocalypse
15:25 Issa no
15:25 Issa what is it ?
15:25 smoke_fumus jagged alliance?
15:25 tripod unity is a badass engine
15:25 tripod everyone has play ja/ja2
15:25 Issa is unreal engin
15:26 Issa link pleas ?
15:26 smoke_fumus i'm creating voxel shooter which from first looks is ace of spades clone, but actually it is tribute to x-com3 apocalypse in general and jagged alliance in lesser form
15:26 Issa ok
15:28 smoke_fumus mainly because i'm about to add walls (internal voxel will be split onto additional logical parts - 4 walls and floor tile.
15:28 smoke_fumus and huge destruction with breaking supports algorythm
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15:35 john_minetest Voxels... Reminds me of this: http://www.scrumbleship.com/
15:36 Warr1024 anyone having trouble with player:hud_add?
15:36 Warr1024 when I join the server, it works, then I quit, and later rejoin, and then nothing...
15:36 KrisEike Back.
15:36 Calinou tripod: yes
15:38 celeron55 Warr1024: how is hud_add used?
15:39 Warr1024 on joinplayer, it registers a 1-second delay using after(), then in that callback it adds the hud to player that was passed into joinplayer
15:40 celeron55 well, that should work
15:40 Warr1024 do I need to do proper tear-down and remove huds on player disconnect?
15:40 Warr1024 or will that stuff get gc'd for me
15:40 celeron55 no; none of it is persistent
15:40 celeron55 the client forgets them at the instant it disconnects, and the server doesn't even know what has been sent to the client
15:41 Warr1024 ah, ok
15:42 Warr1024 doesn't seem to matter whether I close the client completely or just disconnect back to the main menu, doesn't work either way
15:42 Warr1024 maybe I need to wait for the player to connect completely...?  Is there some way to tell?
15:42 Warr1024 I noticed that get_player_control() is giving me junk results when the player is still in the process of connecting, i.e. before player has any control
15:43 Warr1024 different random-ish keys will be "pressed"
15:43 celeron55 have you tried adding a longer delay before using hud_add?
15:44 Warr1024 I'd like to, but there's no fixed delay that will guarantee it would work, since clients take a different amount of time between "connecting" and actually gaining control to play.
15:44 celeron55 (i know it's hacky, but as of now it appears to be needed)
15:44 Warr1024 a possibly better hacky solution would be to capture player position, yaw, and pitch on connect, then poll to see when one of those changes first
15:44 Warr1024 thus as long as the player is frozen still, they're not considered "connected"
15:45 Warr1024 but again, still not quite right.
15:45 celeron55 well, on_joinplayer shouldn't be called before everything is ready; that's how it should be fixed
15:45 Warr1024 true
15:45 kahrl I've used a delay of 0 seconds without problems, but I might have gotten lucky
15:46 celeron55 it's really because of in the server-client context, the client and the player is a different thing, but in the lua context, there are just players
15:46 Warr1024 I'd love to fire a merge req your way to fix it, but I don't know the engine code well enough :-)
15:46 zRokh joined #minetest
15:46 zRokh hi
15:46 khonkhortisan hello
15:47 khonkhortisan and welcome to #minetest, an irc channel for a game
15:47 zRokh i know what it is...
15:47 PilzAdam khonkhortisan, are you a bot?
15:47 zRokh im a local here
15:48 * Zeg9 wonders how much time it will take before zRokh is muted
15:48 zRokh hey PilzAdam
15:48 zRokh im Ragnar
15:48 khonkhortisan if only I was
15:48 zRokh :D
15:48 Warr1024 In the mean-time, I might try messing with hud_remove and re-hud_add to see if that can at least "heal" the situation if it pops up...
15:48 zRokh Original = http://ompldr.org/vaWN2YQ/me2.png , Drawn by me = http://ompldr.org/vaWN2OQ/asdf.jpg
15:49 zRokh #ART-SKILLZa
15:49 zRokh http://www.youtube.com/user/zRokh = Me on YouTube :D
15:51 zRokh who likey :D
15:53 celeron55 nobody
15:54 zRokh stop flattering :P
15:54 khonkhortisan I can't post on youtube because I can't take an account from myself
15:55 zRokh bye maybe
15:55 zRokh if i dont get disconnected im back
15:55 zRokh bye for now
15:55 TheLastProject joined #minetest
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15:56 Warr1024 yeah, hacky remove-and-re-add solution worked
15:56 Warr1024 I just keep track of the "age" of each hud and remove it after 10 seconds.
15:56 Warr1024 then if the hud is missing, re-add it automatically
15:56 Warr1024 ain't elegant, but it's usable, for now
15:57 celeron55 by the way, what're you adding to the hud? 8)
15:57 Warr1024 yet another oxygen meter :-D
15:57 Warr1024 though I tied "stamina" into the same system, so jumping around a lot uses up O2 as well.
15:58 john_minetest you could add a stamina meter that is used when running.
15:58 Warr1024 having your head in a liquid or solid uses stamina, not having your head in a solid or liquid allows it to refill.
15:58 Warr1024 walking uses it up, jumping uses it faster
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15:59 Warr1024 wading or treading water uses it faster, sneaking refills it faster
15:59 Warr1024 it's kind of complicated as-is
15:59 celeron55 so that makes the goal of the game standing still? :P
15:59 Warr1024 but one interesting side-effect is that it make building stairs actually valuable.
15:59 Warr1024 and bridges, or boats (if available)
16:00 Warr1024 walking uses up stamina slightly slower than having your head in air refills it, so just plain walking will actually allow your stamina to refill slowly
16:00 Issa hello celeron55
16:00 Issa hwo are u
16:01 Issa u are the master of minetest
16:01 john_minetest i think an oxygen meter is useful and a stamina bar for running and swimming fast is useful, too.
16:01 Warr1024 which means that you can avoid the annoyances of having to catch your breath by building up infrastructure...
16:01 Issa what other project u work ?
16:02 frogcrush john_minetest: I agree
16:02 Warr1024 well, I started playing minetest about a week ago, and wrote my first mod last night, so it's not necessarily going to be brilliant :-)
16:03 kahrl I don't see how it would retain HUD elements between game starts. When you create a new Client object it creates a new LocalPlayer which has an empty list of hud elements
16:03 Calinou Issa: a few 2D games and that's all :>
16:04 Calinou more or less
16:04 Warr1024 I have to retain the hud ID in a local table server-side, but when I reconnect the same client a second time, I get a new HUD ID.
16:04 Warr1024 so there must be some server-side resource for it, if nothing more than a client/server ID mapping...
16:04 Issa Calinou, = celeron55
16:05 john_minetest gtg, bye
16:07 Warr1024 btw, you wanna talk about "hacky," well, I'm storing the player's current stamina level in a hidden inventory slot :-)
16:07 PilzAdam Warr1024, thats the hackiest idea I heard for a while :D
16:07 * PilzAdam likes
16:08 Warr1024 I wanted to make sure it got written out to disk as often as the rest of the player data, and I noticed that some other similar mods stored their data in private tables, then used a shutdown hook to write them out.  Shutdown hooks are not reliable...
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16:10 Warr1024 I actually find it odd that the map is apparently stored in a sqlite db, but there are a number of other things that are world-related and are written out to separate files, most notably player data.
16:11 Warr1024 I noticed that in a certain other game whose name begins with "mine," a player could dump a bunch of inventory into a chest, then if the server crashed before the player disconnected, there was a chance that the player's inventory would be restored to the pre-drop-in-chest state, i.e. dupe all those items.
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16:31 Mati^1 hi
16:47 celeron55 Warr1024: there's a sane reason why minetest uses an sqlite database and discrete files: the database is used solely to store a certain data type, called MapBlocks, that were previously stored in files but which seriously overloaded any filesystem out there because of the amount of them
16:48 celeron55 and anything else isn't put in there because we're looking for a less bloated alternative (there is a leveldb implementation out there, but we're hesitant to use it because reading it with external tools would be hard - there's much more support for sqlite out there)
16:48 Warr1024 I can see some advantages to storing some of the data in discrete files, from an accessibility perspective (i.e. the "power of plain text"), but there would be a reliability advantage to storing more data in sqlite, i.e. ACID.
16:49 celeron55 (actually this is more of my own opinion though)
16:49 Warr1024 sqlite storage was actually a mod I was strongly considering for a certain other mining-oriented game :-)
16:51 celeron55 also there is the fact that our sqlite implementation will break for maps of over 2 or so GB of size - the largest servers are already using leveldb because of that
16:51 Warr1024 hm, sounds like back-end storage plugins are the way to go...
16:51 kahrl To really make use of ACID a transaction API would have to be exposed on the lua side
16:51 FreeFull joined #minetest
16:51 Warr1024 or you could do some god-awful "sharding" strategy where you split the world into different sqlite databases accessed in parallel.
16:51 kahrl I think that would be too complicated
16:53 zRokh joined #minetest
16:53 zRokh http://www.youtube.com/user/zRokh/ --- Updates on the channel
16:53 PilzAdam zRokh, stop it
16:53 zRokh stop what?
16:53 zRokh =)
16:53 PilzAdam advertising your channel
16:53 Warr1024 kahrl: yes and no; the game runs in cycles, right?  you could just batch up a certain number of cycles, or a all cycles for a fixed amount of time, into a single transaction.
16:53 Warr1024 the value being that you can recover sanely from a power failure without random world corruption.
16:54 zRokh why? i know MANY have done it here!
16:54 zRokh so why cant i?
16:54 zRokh hmmm? =P
16:54 sfan5 zRokh: many have advertised their channel here?
16:54 sfan5 i don't think so
16:54 zRokh yes.
16:54 sfan5 !op
16:54 zRokh NO
16:55 zRokh ill prove it!
16:55 sfan5 please provice a link to logs
16:55 zRokh tomorrow...
16:55 zRokh time almost up...
16:55 sfan5 no, not tomorrow, today!
16:55 zRokh 1 min left
16:55 zRokh i cant...
16:55 zRokh DUH!
16:55 Warr1024 quick, feed it more coins!
16:55 zRokh 45 seconds
16:55 zRokh xD
16:55 zRokh was kicked by sfan5: zRokh
16:55 sfan5 !deop
16:56 celeron55 youtube channels in here this year: http://paste.dy.fi/yFe/plain
16:56 celeron55 (bad regex, pulled something non-channels too)
16:57 celeron55 but anyway, there has been no advertising except once by NekoGloop
16:58 Warr1024 did you check for youtube\.com|youtu\.be ?
16:58 Warr1024 :-)
16:58 celeron55 huh, i guess i should
16:59 celeron55 well, no .be there
17:00 KrisEike What's default_mese.png ?
17:00 KrisEike A ore? a full block?
17:01 PilzAdam fullb block
17:01 PilzAdam -b
17:01 KrisEike Then what the hell is default_mese_block ?
17:01 KrisEike XD
17:01 Warr1024 how do you pronounce that anyway?
17:02 PilzAdam well, default_mese.png isnt used anymore
17:03 KrisEike Then off it goes
17:03 KrisEike ;)
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17:36 KrisEike HDCraft updated for Minetest! :)
17:36 KrisEike http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89188#p89188
17:37 Zeg9 Oh, now I remember where I saw your name, KrisEike
17:37 KrisEike :P
17:38 Calinou octavian server still exists?
17:38 dante123 !up minetest.info.tm
17:38 Calinou mmmph
17:38 MinetestBot minetest.info.tm:30000 seems to be down
17:38 KrisEike Yes Calinou
17:38 dante123 !up minetest.info.tm
17:38 Calinou aren't your tool textures a bit offset, too?
17:38 MinetestBot minetest.info.tm:30000 seems to be down
17:39 Calinou on the third screenshot
17:39 KrisEike idk
17:39 KrisEike old pictures
17:39 Calinou KrisEike: in git there are desert stone bricks and sandstone bricks
17:39 bas0801 joined #minetest
17:39 Calinou both have a bricky-like look, desert stone bricks having a color similar to desert stone
17:39 KrisEike Aha
17:40 Calinou default_desert_stone_brick.png
17:40 KrisEike Meh if people want it added they can give me the png
17:40 Calinou default_sandstone_brick.png
17:40 KrisEike and i might add it
17:40 Calinou for sandstone brick you could base it off the smooth sandstone from MC
17:40 dante123 !up minetest.info.tm
17:40 MinetestBot minetest.info.tm:30000 is up (0.383ms)
17:40 Calinou and color it red-ish for desert stone brick
17:40 * Zeg9 shouldn't even have considered the idea of making clouds in the loading screen. progress bar was enough
17:41 Calinou it's ok
17:41 Calinou does it slow down loading time?
17:42 Zeg9 No, just that it is a huge pain to program
17:43 thexyz then don't do it
17:43 Zeg9 I am nearly done with it. I won't abandon now.
17:45 KrisEike Off i go
17:45 KrisEike http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89188 If anyone can take more pictures i'd be grateful!
17:45 KrisEike afk
17:49 Issa the picture of krisEike is realy HD ?
17:49 Issa i don't hink
17:53 Warr1024 ok, I "fixed" the problem of the hud not reappearing when a player quits and rejoins by removing and replacing it every 5 seconds, and I "fixed" the problem of the flicker that THAT caused by adding the replacement hud first, then removing the old one async after an extra half second...
17:54 celeron55 lol
17:54 Warr1024 hacky, but at least apparently stable
17:54 Warr1024 it'll hold me over until the bugs with player joining and missing huds are figured out properly
17:55 Warr1024 I gotta say though, love this game.
17:55 Warr1024 I'm particularly impressed that it runs better on my OpenBSD Atom n450 netbook than MC ran on my Debian Wheezy Core 2 Duo.
17:57 celeron55 MC back in the alpha days was delightfully lightweight; these days it doesn't really run on other than gaming computers
17:58 celeron55 it's sad
17:58 celeron55 good for us though :-D
17:58 Zeg9 Agree :p
17:58 Warr1024 I have a higher draw dist and many more 3d features enabled in MT too; my bottleneck is still the CPU.
17:59 Warr1024 in MC I had more of a GPU bottleneck, but both were still pretty bad
17:59 Zeg9 MT server doesn't use 2GB of ram, that is a good point too
17:59 Warr1024 oh, yeah, forgot about that :-)
17:59 Zeg9 ^ even with 50 mods/plugins
18:00 * Zeg9 is leaving, bye
18:00 Warr1024 The only slowdown I experienced was after I installed PilzAdam's simple mobs mod, and that seemed to be due to hundreds of rats spawning and never disappearing on their own...
18:01 Warr1024 probably easy enough to patch up...
18:01 celeron55 MT's collision detection implementation isn't particularly fast
18:01 ShadowNinja Warr1024: That mod brought Menche's server to the ground while it was installed.
18:01 Warr1024 it wasn't server-side slowdown, it was client
18:01 Calinou and is buggy since nodeboxes were added, and is even worse since Taoki[laptop] put his physics changes :P
18:01 Warr1024 I think in my case it was processing the extra entity movement update packets.
18:02 Calinou celeron55: it runs fine on an HD4000, so no
18:02 Calinou in normal+fancy with optifine, minecraft is very lightweight for a popular game
18:02 Warr1024 I needed optifine to make it playable
18:02 celeron55 Calinou: HD4000 is like 10x faster than the crappiest thing on which you can run MT quite fine
18:02 celeron55 or 20x
18:03 Calinou well, yeah
18:03 Calinou it's something you find on most laptops today
18:03 Calinou since last year
18:03 Warr1024 I generally don't bother with anything except integrated graphics anymore
18:03 Warr1024 too hard to find decent open-source drivers
18:04 celeron55 i mean... HD4000 is like the fastest you need to run MT with it's "highest settings"...
18:04 celeron55 :D
18:04 celeron55 you don't gain almost anything with faster than that
18:05 ShadowNinja MT runs good on a HD4000. That is what I have, tops at about a view range of 100.
18:05 ShadowNinja (while remaining smooth)
18:06 Warr1024 I'm getting 15fps, v_range = 32, and burning about 15 watts.
18:07 Warr1024 seems pretty efficient to me
18:07 celeron55 that's quite terrible, but so is your hardware :P
18:07 Warr1024 for certain values of "terrible," certainly.
18:08 Warr1024 I can do v_range of 240, 30fps, but it takes about 4x the power.
18:08 Warr1024 or maybe it was 6x?  I can't remember how much my other laptop burns...
18:09 celeron55 what kind of a laptop can burn 60W?
18:09 Warr1024 that might be at the outlet, i.e. including the power brick.
18:09 celeron55 i've seen 30W, but 60 needs so much airflow it must sound like a vacuum cleaner
18:11 celeron55 power bricks are often something like 60W to accomodate full load plus full battery charging
18:11 Warr1024 Anyway, didn't mean to make this into a contest (I'm on OpenBSD, so clearly performance tuning was not a big priority for me).  Just wanted to say that MT's performance is really refreshing, so... thanks :-)
18:12 celeron55 oh whatever 8)
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18:19 kaeza hi all
18:26 * sokomine likes MTs performance as well
18:26 sokomine hi :-)
18:28 sokomine good to hear that a hd4000 would be perfect. still have to decide what to buy...with development gone almost to a halt on desktop pcs, maybe waiting for haswell might make sense. or i just buy the cheapest celeron and don't care about quiet cooling or a new case or whatever :-)
18:37 celeron55 well i've learned that if i want to get a single thing right in a computer, it's the amount of noise
18:38 celeron55 anything else is secondary and completely irrelevant if the thing makes too much noise
18:38 Warr1024 argh, these freakin' HUD's
18:38 Warr1024 thought I had the problem fixed, or at least worked around
18:38 Warr1024 thought wrong.
18:39 celeron55 maybe you should pastebin the code and see if others find an obvious bug in it
18:40 NakedFury that helps
18:40 NakedFury always
18:40 sokomine that's right. before this one, i kept a computer for almost 9 years. the fans got extremly loud so it was time to replace it. fortionately it seems to be relatively easy to get current pcs quiet. power consumtion and subsequently noise is something where development seems to have taken place
18:42 Issa hello
18:43 Issa i m looking on the website of my favorite texte pacl
18:43 Issa Sphx test Bdcraft
18:43 Issa and i show this video ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=nI7uz1EIdzI#!
18:44 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: title http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=nI7uz1EIdzI#!
18:44 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: "Our World" (Minecraft w/ Sonic Ethers Shaders + PureBDCraft x512 + Real Clouds) - YouTube
18:45 Issa look this --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;v=Vunk72tZf5Q&amp;feature=endscreen
18:45 Issa it's pretty nice
18:45 Warr1024 ok, kinda problematic.  gist.github.com and pastebin.com are both not working right.
18:45 ShadowNinja ShadowBot: title http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=Vunk72tZf5Q
18:45 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: Realistic Ocean in Minecraft (VFX breakdown) - YouTube
18:46 ShadowNinja Warr1024: pastebin.ubuntu.com, pastebin.progval.net, etc.
18:48 Warr1024 http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5648712/
18:48 Warr1024 thanks
18:49 Calinou joined #minetest
18:49 sfan5 celeron55: you got 333 posts
18:50 Warr1024 regression testing to make sure the code I just posted behaves exactly as described...
18:50 Warr1024 yep, confirmed, hud is there first time, quit and rejoin and it's gone.
18:51 Warr1024 I commented out my hackish recreation code, but that didn't work reliably when I tried it.
18:51 Warr1024 seemed to work the first couple of times, but I may have been testing wrong.
18:52 Warr1024 it seems to take about 30 seconds or so between the time I show up on the server logs vs. am actually in the game.
18:52 Warr1024 though again that number is subject to significant variation.
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18:55 Warr1024 basically, every so often, in globalstep (which I should probably replace with timers or after() callbacks or something) it does an oxygen check on all players
18:55 Warr1024 it ends up setting oxy level for each player, which results in calling oxyhud, which creates the hud (if missing) and sets the value.
18:55 Warr1024 it also used to remove the hud and try to recreate it, but again, that didn't work the second time the player connected.
18:56 celeron55 Warr1024: is it possible that in your code this happens: player joins, code sets huds[name] = something, player leaves, player joins, code checks that yeah, huds[name] has something, and doesn't add hud?
18:56 ShadowNinja Warr1024: Try using register_on_joinplayer.
18:57 Warr1024 yeah, hold on, I hastily commented out some things that seemed to be clouding the core issue
18:57 sokomine wrr: noticed that several times as well. people greeted me before i could actually see anything
18:57 Warr1024 lemme make sure my hud data is getting disposed first...
18:58 Warr1024 ok, I'm nilling out that hud table entry on both joinplayer and leaveplayer...
18:58 Warr1024 retesting...
19:03 Warr1024 argh, still no love
19:04 Warr1024 it's definitely getting a different hud ID.
19:04 Warr1024 got 0 the first time and worked, 1 the second time and didn't
19:04 Warr1024 I figured it was possible the hud ID's got desynced server/client, so I tried hard-coding 0, but no luck there either; it was kind of a longshot, anyway.
19:05 celeron55 so if you delete all code except add code that uses add_hud in on_joinplayer, it fails to work?
19:05 celeron55 *always uses
19:05 celeron55 kaeza, hmmmm, whoever who actually knows something about this: do you have any idea?
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19:06 kaeza celeron55, Warr1024, I have no problems setting hud with a 0.5 sec delay
19:06 Warr1024 lemme do that
19:08 kaeza Warr1024, in most cases, you'll probably be updating the HUD frequently (like every half second)
19:09 Warr1024 ok, I tried without the delay, straight-up joinplayer, and got nothing the first time.
19:09 Warr1024 why's that delay necessary anyway?
19:10 kaeza not sure
19:10 Warr1024 that's a bit scary
19:10 kaeza but minetest.chat_send_player() also does not work without the delay
19:10 kaeza It may be because the player has not "emerged" yet
19:10 Warr1024 crap, found bug in my test code, gotta retest
19:11 kaeza again, not sure
19:11 Warr1024 yeah, well, it takes about 30 seconds for me to emerge
19:11 Warr1024 yet it works on an un-emerged player the first time...
19:11 sapier1 http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5919 factions mod with mod <-> mod api and reputation support
19:11 * smoke_fumus added 3d perlin noise to setup temporary blocks
19:11 smoke_fumus http://screencast.com/t/vCx7alaW1tk looking good
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19:12 kaeza Warr1024, https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-kaeza_misc/blob/master/crosshair_ex/init.lua
19:12 Warr1024 ok, no delay and it doesn't work, 0.5s delay and it worked the first time I joined...
19:13 Warr1024 ...and didn't work the second time I joined.
19:14 Warr1024 kaeza: yeah, that's what my code's doing now, except it's statbar and there are a few other features I'm using like offset.
19:14 Warr1024 minetest.register_on_joinplayer(function(player) minetest.after(0.5, function(self) player:hud_add({ hud_elem_type = "statbar", position = { x = 0.5, y = 1 }, text = "oxygen_icon.png", number = 20, offset = { x = 0, y = -54 }, }) end) end)
19:14 Hwkiller Hm, I keep getting a segmentation fault in minetest now
19:14 Warr1024 that code works the first time I join the server.
19:15 Warr1024 if I leave the server, and rejoin it without restarting the server, no worky.
19:16 Warr1024 I had been wondering if it's possible that the hud IS being drawn but there's a bug in the new offset feature and it's getting drawn off-screen
19:17 Warr1024 I guess I can try messing with the numbers...
19:17 kaeza Warr1024, the final position is calculated on the fly, so cumulative errors are unlikely
19:17 Warr1024 yeah, that's how I'd do it too
19:18 Warr1024 without knowing the code well enough, though, I'm more or less shooting in the dark hhere.
19:19 Warr1024 yep, failed again, with offset removed and x/y at 0.5,0.5
19:19 kaeza Warr1024, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/hud.cpp#L173
19:19 ShadowNinja Set the delay higher maybe?
19:20 Warr1024 if it were the delay that were the problem, why does it work the first time I join?
19:20 Warr1024 I'm gonna try a fresh build of ee1155fe to make sure I'm on latest on both ends of the platform.
19:20 smoke_fumus ShadowNinja: i know i have no idea because i just took a notice, but can you invoke stand-alone thread for process and signal back after it's complete?
19:22 Warr1024 can anyone else reproduce this?
19:22 ShadowNinja smoke_fumus: I don't know much about threading.
19:23 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: you talking about multithreading in lua, C++...?
19:23 smoke_fumus easy enough. protect everything you thread in singleton, start coroutine which will calculate whatever you need and then signal back to main thread to use results on next update
19:24 smoke_fumus there is threading in lua...although it is...well crappy
19:24 Warr1024 yeah, it's not the kind of threading where you have more than one of them running at a time.
19:24 PilzAdam minetests Lua env is not able to use threads
19:24 ShadowNinja s/much/anything/ ;-)
19:24 smoke_fumus PilzAdam: ah shit
19:24 smoke_fumus yeah, that could be a problem
19:25 Jordach joined #minetest
19:25 Jordach joined #minetest
19:25 Warr1024 there are significant technical barriers to being able to run pre-emptive multithreading within a single lua context.
19:25 sapier1 threading for lua is one of my longterm goals but currently even basic infrastructure is missing
19:25 Warr1024 you can, however, spin up another context (though this requires C work) or just do your complex background work in a C thread.
19:25 kaeza smoke_fumus, look at this: https://github.com/kaeza/mapp/blob/threading/init.lua
19:25 PilzAdam sapier1, sfan5 was looking at it too
19:26 sapier1 good to know
19:26 sapier1 I'm working at this for about half a year now ... at least every now and then but in current state of lua api threading is simply impossible
19:26 PilzAdam well, he looked at it because of Worldedit, but switched to a block query (like WE++) after a while
19:27 sapier1 primary problem for lua threading is crazy locking style within whole core
19:28 Warr1024 if you want to do work in a background thread, your best bet is to create a separate, completely independent lua context, and serialize everything you need to ship over to it, and back.  It's only possibly worthwhile if the computations are complex enough to offset the cost of serialization.
19:28 sapier1 this needs to be fixed prior any threading can be implemented
19:28 sapier1 no it isn't warr1024
19:28 sapier1 as you need to implement data transfer mechanisms for this to be of any use
19:29 Warr1024 yes, hence my mention of it needing to be REALLY worthwhile.
19:29 sapier1 anything requireing that much cpu power most likely will be better done in c++ either ;-)
19:30 kaeza smoke_fumus, the code I linked is for a "map" mod generated on the fly. The main problem was that it blocked the server whenever a player tried to look at the map
19:30 Warr1024 right, it just depends on how accessible you want to make that as a general convention..
19:30 kaeza so I implemented it using Lua coroutines, updating a section of the "map" at every step
19:30 sapier1 currently most mod latency is introduced by mods running up and down lua <-> c++ way to often
19:31 smoke_fumus kaeza: what do you mean by 'look'
19:31 sapier1 there's only a big env lock once anyone accesses map all others are locked out until that one finishes
19:31 Warr1024 sapier1: if lua/C++ intercomm is slow, I'll have to keep that in mind then.
19:31 sapier1 this is the real problem
19:31 sapier1 especially lua <-> map intercom is slow
19:32 kaeza smoke_fumus, it's a "map", as in, a piece of paper showing the geeneral terrain, not a "minetest map"
19:32 kaeza whenever a player used the "map" tool, the server got stuck until it finished generating the image
19:33 Warr1024 you could build some sort of external process to poll the map and build pre-computed images...
19:33 sapier1 I guess this is because of map tool did fetch information from minetest map ... a very very slow path in core
19:33 kaeza sapier1, in part, yes
19:33 kaeza and because it needs to generate the formspec
19:34 sapier1 yes but that process needs to handle map changes gratefully and not crash if data is modified while its working with it
19:34 smoke_fumus kaeza: so technically mod which shows flatmap as in topview overview
19:34 sapier1 if that process locks the map too it's of no use
19:34 sapier1 whats so slow in generating a formspec?
19:34 [ungali] joined #minetest
19:34 smoke_fumus okay. first. it never should be serverside.
19:34 kaeza sapier1, it only caches the node names; it does not block anything
19:35 smoke_fumus you should pass it to client
19:35 kaeza smoke_fumus, +1
19:35 Jordach anyways
19:35 sapier1 lua is alway running within map lock
19:35 Jordach i might have found a soloution to the player skin system
19:35 [ungali] are there binary packages of 0.4.6 for debian?
19:35 sapier1 at least in current implementation
19:35 smoke_fumus its like getting server to calculate all damn geometry to send it to client
19:35 smoke_fumus I DARE YOU it will suck
19:35 kaeza sapier1, it updates (or rather caches) a section in one pass, then yields back to the game
19:35 Mati^1 joined #minetest
19:36 Mati^1 re
19:36 sapier1 and how long does processing of this section require?
19:36 smoke_fumus client looks at map - tell server that map item there was activated, then get client allowance to proceed to look at tops of map
19:36 kaeza and so on and so on until the entire requested area is cached, then the formspec is built and shown to the player
19:36 smoke_fumus client will gen it
19:36 Warr10241 joined #minetest
19:36 kaeza sapier1, on averave 5 secs
19:36 sapier1 LOL
19:36 kaeza average*
19:37 Warr10241 btw, MT will run on an atom n450, but it also seems to occasionally make the GPU melt...
19:37 sapier1 and I was worried about pathfinding took 200ms in some cases
19:37 john_minetest joined #minetest
19:37 Warr1024 ok, so I uppped the HUD delay to 30s, and still same results.
19:37 Calinou works fine for me on a N455, Warr1024, although slow
19:37 kaeza sapier1, it's not my code, I just made it a bit better
19:38 kaeza blame 4aiman
19:38 kaeza ;)
19:38 sapier1 if you lock lua for 5 seconds you most likely will cause lot of trouble
19:38 Warr1024 Calinou: yeah, it's probably an issue with my GPU drivers or something...
19:38 Calinou it's still infinitely better to play on a desktop :P
19:38 Calinou xubuntu 12.10 64 bit + intel drivers
19:38 sapier1 collision handling will drop data if dtime is > 2s
19:38 kaeza <kaeza> sapier1, it updates (or rather caches) a section in one pass, then yields back to the game
19:38 kaeza each pass caches one map "line"
19:38 sapier1 yes and you said a section requires 5s?
19:39 kaeza nope
19:39 kaeza the full process takes 5 secs
19:39 sapier1 ok thats something completely different
19:39 Warr1024 so I guess this HUD thing is a bug?  I'm kind of surprised it wasn't caught before
19:39 kaeza from the user using the tool to the map displaying
19:41 sapier1 I'm already planing support for asynchronous lua operations ... this is almost same as warr1024 suggested with threading
19:41 sapier1 but as I told this requires some locking cleanup
19:42 Calinou finally an open source prorgrammer cares about multithreading!
19:42 Calinou * AMD spams "alleluiah"
19:43 sapier1 lol I talking about multithreading for years but it's almost as impossible to add this as adding security features ;-P
19:44 kaeza sapier1, adding multithreading would be great
19:44 Calinou better add multithreading than security features
19:44 Calinou life is too short to care about security :P
19:44 celeron55 Warr1024: it seems nobody can tell if it's a bug or not
19:44 kaeza but for now, we gotta do with what we have :)
19:44 Warr1024 ok, well, I'm going to test one more time using kaeza's mod, which I am assured works correctly
19:45 Warr1024 if I can reproduce it, I'll file an issue in github...
19:45 sapier1 lol maybe your life is so short BECAUSE you don't care about security ;-P
19:45 celeron55 Warr1024: take kaeza's mod and replace your stuff into it until it doesn't work
19:45 celeron55 (assuming it works initially)
19:45 kaeza it does :)
19:45 Calinou sapier1, actually, minetest is a game
19:46 sapier1 no I won't start this discussion again we all know there wont be any result
19:47 monkeycoder joined #minetest
19:47 smoke_fumus threads is a great way to enhance perfomance
19:47 smoke_fumus just make sure its pid-less threads xD
19:47 sapier1 only if you do correct locking
19:47 smoke_fumus true true
19:47 Warr1024 and if you have more than 1 core
19:47 smoke_fumus unprotected threads are general pain
19:48 sapier1 but only way to gain full performance
19:48 smoke_fumus is to use 64 bit
19:48 smoke_fumus :D
19:48 Warr1024 celeron55: reproduced it without modifying kaeza's code
19:48 Calinou how about 128 bit
19:48 Warr1024 I wouldn't be surprised if much of the mod content out there is only tested rigorously in single-player, in which case you get a fresh server each time
19:48 smoke_fumus Calinou: do you have intel/amd processors with 128bit archetecture?
19:48 smoke_fumus i don't think you do
19:49 kaeza Warr1024, just tested my mod. restarted 4 times in a row and no problems
19:49 Warr1024 kaeza: restarted what?
19:49 sapier1 no is using non synchronized threads ... but this requires a little bit more than just writing some "working" code down
19:49 Calinou steamroller will be 128 bit, you didn't know?
19:49 smoke_fumus fun fact but dreamcast had 128bit
19:49 smoke_fumus wait..
19:49 Calinou so that AMD will sell a lot of CPUs again, just like they did when they introduced 64 bit
19:49 Calinou </sarcasm>
19:49 kaeza Warr1024, went back to main menu and started game again.... wasn't this the problem?
19:49 Jordach http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=89193#p89193
19:50 Warr1024 kaeza: did you leave the server running, or were you in single player?
19:50 smoke_fumus uh. hm. i am a bit wrong - dreamcast had 128-bit graphics core meaning that inside of gl call you could've had just one bigass mesh per level
19:50 smoke_fumus to example
19:51 smoke_fumus which is interesting way of optimizing
19:52 kaeza Warr1024, derp
19:52 kaeza indeed reproducible
19:52 Warr1024 Filed as issue 711 (don't I get a free slurpie with that?)
19:53 smoke_fumus Warr1024: no but you do get nagged respond like 'goddamn, another issue'
19:53 Warr1024 yeah, sorry about that :-)
19:53 smoke_fumus xD
19:54 Warr1024 Normally I prefer to include code to fix the bugs that I file, but I don't know the code well enough (yet)
19:54 * ShadowBot wakes up
19:54 Calinou Warr1024, I got issue 666 :P https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/666
19:54 MinetestBot joined #minetest
19:54 * ShadowBot sleeps
19:55 kaeza Calinou is satanic :O
19:55 sfan5 ,,(op MinetestBot)
19:55 kaeza ...and a griefer :P
19:55 khonkhortisan dr. who reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0jftqRLG5c&amp;t=1m10s
19:55 smoke_fumus Calinou:  ??? you're on the highwaaaaay to hell~~~~ ???
19:55 smoke_fumus :D
19:55 Calinou no u
19:56 smoke_fumus gladly. at least succubs not that crazy as typical 21 old girls
19:56 * smoke_fumus trollface
19:56 sfan5 !title
19:56 MinetestBot TypeError: f_title() takes exactly 4 arguments (2 given) (file "/home/user/mtbot/bot.py", line 214, in call)
19:56 sapier1 left #minetest
19:56 sdzen joined #minetest
19:57 smoke_fumus hey, i found a note symbol. ddd nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana-nana BATMAN! ddd
19:57 Calinou tripod, obit smoke_fumus please
19:57 Hwkiller left #minetest
19:57 Calinou he's your clone :>
19:57 smoke_fumus xD
19:58 smoke_fumus speaking of adam west's batman. http://z0r.de/5036
19:58 Issa i m a singlpayer on minetest how cheat
19:58 Issa ?
19:58 Calinou /grant singleplayer all
19:59 celeron55 Warr1024: well, good thing somebody found the issue then... now hope that somebody manages to fix it in reasonable time :P
19:59 smoke_fumus Issa: cheat singleplayer to, should you, google lookup
20:00 smoke_fumus WORD ORDER
20:00 smoke_fumus LEARN IT xD
20:00 Warr1024 is anyone specific responsible for fixing this sort of stuff?
20:00 kaeza smoke_fumus, he's Yoda
20:00 celeron55 generally those who have added a feature are responsible for fixing it
20:00 smoke_fumus kaeza: yoda didn't skipped words
20:00 Warr1024 ah
20:00 Issa smoke_fumus, im on the wiki, and no information about this on it
20:00 smoke_fumus misplaced yes, skipped no
20:01 Issa smoke_fumus, http://wiki.minetest.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&amp;search=cheating&amp;go=Go
20:01 smoke_fumus NO CHEAT FOR YOU
20:01 smoke_fumus PLAY FAIR
20:01 celeron55 Warr1024: this one was contributed by someone who doesn't hang around here otherwise though, and then hmmmm reworked it and kaeza extended it so i don't know who to blame 8)
20:01 smoke_fumus this is short answer. long answer is that someone should add inventory picker mod for ssp
20:01 ShadowNinja sfan5: The commacomma() notation is for use in sentances, you can use !cmd or ShadowBot: cmd also.
20:02 sfan5 ShadowNinja: ok
20:02 PilzAdam celeron55, always blame hmmmm
20:02 Warr1024 I noticed that the ID assigned server-side to hud elements on reconnect are different for different connections, even though I thought players were disposed each time...
20:02 smoke_fumus wait...wait wait wait wait.
20:02 smoke_fumus you control hud elements...serverside?
20:02 smoke_fumus wat?
20:02 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: you can
20:02 smoke_fumus why?
20:02 Warr1024 it don't work, but you can :-)
20:02 smoke_fumus you shouldn't
20:02 smoke_fumus this is awful
20:02 Warr1024 yes you should
20:03 smoke_fumus no you shouldn't
20:03 celeron55 *additional hud elements
20:03 smoke_fumus gui == clientside
20:03 Warr1024 how else can I add gauges?
20:03 kaeza celeron55, that looks like an issue in the HUD core (i.e. the original version)
20:03 smoke_fumus this looks more like crutch rather than  gauge
20:03 sapier joined #minetest
20:04 * ShadowBot wakes up
20:04 kaeza or maybe hmmmm's rework, dunno
20:04 MinetestBot joined #minetest
20:04 * ShadowBot sleeps
20:04 sfan5 !op MinetestBot
20:04 Warr1024 don't know what you mean, smoke_fumus.  I want to add stamina to my mod, and need some way to let the player see it while moving around.
20:04 sfan5 ShadowBot: op MinetestBot
20:04 kaeza I only touched the rendering parts
20:04 sfan5 ShadowNinja: it somehow doesn't seem to work
20:04 smoke_fumus Warr1024: control variable of stamina. but let clientside to work with hud
20:04 celeron55 Warr1024: smoke_fumus is talking on a design level
20:04 Warr1024 any chance that the player hud array isn't being initialized or disposed of properly?
20:05 sfan5 http://minetest.net/
20:05 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: there IS no client-side.
20:05 sfan5 !title
20:05 MinetestBot NameError: global name 'self' is not defined (file "/home/user/mtbot/modules/title.py", line 22, in f_title)
20:05 smoke_fumus Warr1024: wat?
20:05 sfan5 wat?
20:05 smoke_fumus WAAAAT?
20:05 kaeza wut
20:05 smoke_fumus what did you smoked?
20:05 Warr1024 all my mod code runs server-side.
20:05 Jordach weed. my choice.
20:05 celeron55 minetest doesn't run any mod code on the client side
20:05 smoke_fumus Warr1024: you are a bad, BAD MAN
20:05 ShadowNinja sfan5: You need to have the owner capability to bypass lobotomies it seems.
20:05 smoke_fumus and you should be ASHAMED of YOURSELF
20:05 Warr1024 ha
20:05 kaeza smoke_fumus, double past tense
20:05 kaeza did you smoked? <--- wut
20:06 Issa kaeza, i think he smole
20:06 Issa :/
20:06 Calinou smole, lol
20:06 smoke_fumus lol
20:06 Calinou smoke_fumus, go add client side modding
20:06 Warr1024 if I add a variable server-side and want the client to have some way to display it, I either need to push instructions to add a HUD to the client, or I need to push code to do the same.
20:06 smoke_fumus Calinou: this feature should be natively in the game
20:06 smoke_fumus if it isn't there - somebody forgot to do his homework
20:06 Warr1024 s/feature/flaw
20:07 Calinou do it then
20:07 smoke_fumus i'm not minetest developer
20:07 Calinou also add nouveau reclocking while you're at it, since you seem to be so good at programming :P
20:07 smoke_fumus nor core developer, neither side developer
20:07 Warr1024 keeping all the modding stuff server-side was a very nice design.
20:07 smoke_fumus BULL!
20:07 kaeza smoke_fumus, since stamina or otherwise would be calc'ed server-side, you'd need to transmit the value over network anyway
20:07 smoke_fumus all logics yes
20:07 smoke_fumus all visuals - BULL
20:07 celeron55 if you don't develop, then you can't blame anyone; that's the rule here
20:07 Issa well
20:07 Warr1024 it means that you can connect to any server without needing to download the exact matching set of corresponding client mods to whatever is running on the server.
20:08 Issa good night
20:08 sapier still some sort of limited client side modding might be interesting too
20:08 Warr1024 much nicer than the way it was over on MC.
20:08 * ShadowBot wakes up
20:08 celeron55 sapier: for some simple responsive effects, yes
20:08 sapier not as powerfull as server side modding
20:08 smoke_fumus Warr1024: or you can do it spoutcraft way with server giving client http link on client sides of its mods
20:08 Warr1024 allowing clients to be modded = nice.  requiring existing mods be split between server and client = bull.
20:08 MinetestBot joined #minetest
20:08 * ShadowBot sleeps
20:08 smoke_fumus which is way nicer
20:08 kaeza smoke_fumus, also, the work needed to prevent cheating with client-side mods would be enormous
20:08 sfan5 http://minetest.net/
20:08 sfan5 !title
20:08 MinetestBot NameError: global name 'self' is not defined (file "/home/user/mtbot/modules/title.py", line 90, in f_title)
20:08 sfan5 damnit
20:08 smoke_fumus kaeza: hur hur hur no. easy.
20:08 Jordach lololololol
20:08 sapier e.g some small on_punch actions that predict server side changes
20:08 Calinou !title or GTFO
20:08 MinetestBot Calinou: Can't connect to http://or GTFO
20:08 PilzAdam sfan5, I consider this spam
20:09 smoke_fumus kaeza: you detach backend of mod from frontend. you move all visuals to frontend, but leave all logicwork to backend. backend runs on server. frontend runs on client
20:09 kaeza smoke_fumus, then code it 8)
20:09 smoke_fumus done.
20:09 smoke_fumus but you also need to code in enviroment.
20:10 smoke_fumus kaeza: mate this is common sense programming
20:10 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: ick; not having to have a separate front-end and back-end side to mods was one of the things that attracted me to minetest in the first place.
20:10 Calinou how would you implement the client side API, smoke_fumus?
20:10 Calinou first, you need to create some kind of conventions
20:10 kaeza smoke_fumus, less chat, more code
20:10 Calinou then add client-server linking (else it's not really useful)
20:11 sapier I was more thinking about sever telling client what to execute
20:11 khonkhortisan and server→client installing
20:11 smoke_fumus Calinou: easy enough. give it Widget namespace  and desired calls which can be called through it + ability to read variables from server on demand but use  dynamically generated magicNumber  to prevent ddos
20:11 celeron55 smoke_fumus: where do you think the visuals are, if not in the frontend? what you see on the screen is drawn by the client after all
20:11 sapier thus mod is not installed on client but still on server and transfered on connect ... but this is a very dangerous action
20:11 smoke_fumus so
20:11 Warr1024 ok, is it just me, or is the HUD not being initialized in the Player.cpp constructor... but shouldn't it be...?
20:11 kaeza > read variables from server on demand
20:12 kaeza ^ latency?
20:12 celeron55 sapier: lua can be sandboxed for such use, it's not an issue
20:12 smoke_fumus kaeza: with magic number which generated each keyframe
20:12 smoke_fumus so client will not be able to custom-hack
20:12 kaeza lol
20:12 smoke_fumus + check md5 of mod file
20:12 smoke_fumus on connection
20:12 smoke_fumus so if any changes - drop the fucker
20:12 sapier yes there are actions to make it safe but they need to be implemented
20:13 kaeza smoke_fumus, again, less chat, more code
20:13 smoke_fumus kaeza: well do it
20:13 sapier implementing it same way current server side implementation is done would be crazy
20:13 celeron55 sapier: do you seriously think we would pass in client-side lua without proper sandboxing?
20:13 smoke_fumus i already explained how to
20:13 celeron55 sapier: no we would not
20:13 Warr1024 huh?
20:13 Warr1024 are you talking about problems with servers pushing malicious code to the client, or the client trying to cheat with a modded interface?
20:13 Warr1024 if the latter, they already can cheat, and there's literally nothing you can do abou tit.
20:13 sfan5 http://minetest.net/
20:13 sfan5 !title
20:13 MinetestBot sfan5: Minetest
20:13 sapier celeron55 I'd wish there were more ppl having this attitude ;-)
20:13 celeron55 sapier: if you do, i take that as an insult
20:14 smoke_fumus Warr1024: Durr. no. you can do alot about it. MD5 checksum checking on connection to example
20:14 sapier I know you're concerned about security too celeron
20:15 celeron55 smoke_fumus: we do not, will not, and cannot use validation of client-side code
20:15 smoke_fumus yes you can, you must and you will
20:15 celeron55 smoke_fumus: only those who distribute their clients as proprietary binary blobs can attempt such
20:15 smoke_fumus it is not about general client we talk about
20:15 sfan5 before anybody does anything? why MD5? its insecure
20:15 smoke_fumus but about its files
20:15 sapier war1024 cheating is only a "minor" issue at least I'm concerned about server pushing malicious code
20:15 smoke_fumus and mods
20:15 smoke_fumus sfan5: sha256 then
20:15 Warr1024 MD5 to check what?
20:15 Warr1024 you mean to check the client binaries?
20:15 Warr1024 aside from breaking portability, all that would do is convince hackers they have to send a fake MD5 anyway.
20:16 Warr1024 no, actually proprietary binary blobs are also vulnerable
20:16 smoke_fumus Warr1024: to check lua modfiles
20:16 celeron55 smoke_fumus: so? the user can just modify the client's code to tell the server it's using what the server wants it to use, while it uses something else
20:16 celeron55 you can't limit the client by telling it what it should limit
20:16 Calinou lol, checking client binaries, overrated thing noone does today :P
20:16 smoke_fumus well. you built it insecure like that
20:16 smoke_fumus not me
20:16 Warr1024 built what?  the end-user's computer?
20:17 smoke_fumus server-client code
20:17 Warr1024 that's the issue here: the client runs entirely on a computer that's outside of the control of minetest devs
20:17 celeron55 minetest's server-client operation is currently quite uncheatable for exactly the reason that mods run on the server
20:17 thexyz wallhack
20:17 smoke_fumus ugh. it is just about how do you interact  through network
20:17 thexyz flying, speedhack
20:17 sapier there are some things that can be done to improove minetest security ... I've allready created a proove of concept changeset
20:17 Warr1024 flying and speedhack could be dealt with server-side
20:18 celeron55 thexyz: that isn't checked, but could be if someone cares enough to do it
20:18 Warr1024 wallhack is not protectable unless you do raytracing server-side, god forbid.
20:18 celeron55 thexyz: it's not technically impossible, which matters
20:18 Calinou they are already dealt with
20:18 sapier still atm I prefere my lua api fixes (way to multithreading) to be included first ;-)
20:18 Calinou but with lag there are lots of false positives :P
20:18 Calinou flying, not
20:18 Calinou but speedhack, yes
20:18 thexyz some people from my server decided to use cheatengine to "speed up" minetest
20:18 Calinou we still lack noclip protection though (idea: set damage to 20/second in normal nodes that have full block collision)
20:19 Calinou thexyz, how did they go through the speedhack protection?
20:19 sapier guys there are so much bugs in minetest that could be used to cheat is it really of any use to discuss about client verification?
20:19 Calinou glitch ladders :D
20:20 celeron55 thexyz: how did that end up :P
20:20 thexyz Calinou: no idea
20:21 kaeza1 joined #minetest
20:24 kaeza smoke_fumus, rule #1 of the internet: never trust the client
20:24 kaeza smoke_fumus, rule #-1 of the internet: rules and numbers are arbitrary
20:25 Calinou actually, you should trust the client
20:25 Calinou else lag will be obvious
20:25 john_minetest rule #2 never trust the server if you are a client
20:25 Calinou this is why playing quake 1 based games with 100+ ping sucks
20:25 Warr1024 rule #0: start numbering at zero, dammit.
20:25 tripod Calinou: who dare waketh me
20:25 Calinou while it's fine to play quake 3 based games with 100+ ping
20:25 Calinou me
20:25 khonkhortisan rule #1b you're always going to be off by one
20:25 Calinou because Q3 trusts the client more, and the prediction was built in too
20:26 Calinou but cube 2 is even better at this
20:26 smoke_fumus Warr1024: that's networking coding rules
20:26 Calinou and of course, minecraft/minetest
20:26 smoke_fumus not internet rules
20:26 Calinou lag should never be obvious
20:26 Calinou --c-fifty-five
20:26 PilzAdam *see-fifty-five
20:27 john_minetest It seems that I can't see ping. Although I have got a bad ping I often can not see the difference of 10 and 100. When it gets higher and lags, it is obvious, of course
20:27 Calinou there is
20:27 Calinou small, but I can notice it
20:29 john_minetest I can't. Lol, there are people who move from Europe to Japan because they are closer to the server and have a ping that is 5-10 better than in europe.
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20:39 kaeza1 https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7439435264/h45FA898B/
20:41 kaeza the developers of minetest, https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7439253760/hC9BFBD1F/
20:42 PilzAdam is that eclipse?
20:43 smoke_fumus kaeza: there is third pic. 'my code works only 1 time out of 5. i have no idea why' and 'my code has a fatal error. gdb says 'segfault''
20:43 smoke_fumus :D
20:43 sapier seams to be eclipse yes
20:43 smoke_fumus yes that is eclipse
20:43 Warr1024 fuck, found a fix for bug 711
20:43 PilzAdam *seems
20:44 Warr1024 apparently the player objects are being reused between connections
20:44 sapier argh wrong again ... seems seems seems ... :-)
20:44 Warr1024 calling player->hud.clear() before the scriptapi line in emergePlayer in server.cpp seems to fix it.
20:48 celeron55 Warr1024: this is very useful info in fixing of the bug
20:48 Warr1024 I was actually about to amend a diff to my issue report :-)
20:49 smoke_fumus also guys. speaking of security and threading in opensource. there is best example of opensource up to date - springrts engine
20:49 smoke_fumus not only it is secure as 9 circles of hell, and robust as turboturd but also extremely powerful up to AAA code grade
20:50 Warr1024 I posted a diff
20:50 smoke_fumus + it uses lua for scripting
20:50 bcnjr5 joined #minetest
20:50 Warr1024 one of these days I'll setup a proper fork from which I can push back mergereqs...
20:52 celeron55 smoke_fumus: does spring-rts use the traditional lockstep model?
20:52 Warr1024 anyway, that patch seems to make the problem go away, but it seems like there's a larger issue of player objects being reused (if a player disconnects, the object is kept for when they rejoin) with no reinitialization that I could see.
20:52 smoke_fumus i..have...urm..actually i have no clue
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20:54 smoke_fumus but i can tell you that is supports up to 64000 units on battlefield simultaneously (although it is engine restriction - actual restriction depends on your cpu. mine handles ~8000)
20:55 smoke_fumus + it has most interesting rts feature so far - dynamic client reconnection and specator reconnection (it not sending current frame but rather frames from 0 up to current on enhanced speed to let client catchup)
20:55 celeron55 the lockstep is something only strategy games can use because it requires a constant delay of a few RTTs to all player input, and in turn allows the network protocol to consist solely of player input while each peer runs the exact same simulation
20:55 smoke_fumus *specator connection on the go
20:55 smoke_fumus oh...yes then i believe it does
20:56 smoke_fumus although you will need to ask core devs about it
20:56 celeron55 well based on the characteristics yoy said, it's somewhat obvious
20:56 celeron55 you*
20:56 smoke_fumus besides. it is total annihilation reverse-enginered port with enhanced features
20:56 celeron55 also that dynamic client reconnection isn't particularly special
20:56 celeron55 OpenTTD has had it for a long time
20:57 celeron55 (it also uses lockstep AFAIK)
20:57 bcnjr5 joined #minetest
20:57 smoke_fumus celeron55: not when you has 8000 units on battlefield with at least 25 variables each
20:58 smoke_fumus not reconnection but  also raw connection. you can join in middle of battle and after catching up host can pass command of 1 player to you
20:58 smoke_fumus drop-in, drop-out gameplay. in rts.
20:58 smoke_fumus i know openttd has it
20:58 smoke_fumus but its openttd
20:58 smoke_fumus it has way lesser units
20:58 celeron55 well, openttd is RTS
20:59 smoke_fumus its a matter scale
20:59 smoke_fumus openttd has properties detached from graphics as far as i remember. and properties structs there are fairly small
21:00 smoke_fumus in springrts they are somewhat more massive
21:01 celeron55 but anyway, what's the point?
21:01 smoke_fumus point is - lookup its code and learn about client-server mods through lua and security of it in general
21:02 celeron55 we can't do the same thing in MT
21:02 celeron55 as i said, it only works for strategy games where input can always be delayed for a few hundred milliseconds
21:02 NakedFury how weird that celeron is still here
21:02 sapier our primary problem isn't we don't know how to do it but how to keep compatibility ;-)
21:03 smoke_fumus if it will be up to general changes - break the fucking compatability to smitherines if it means you can create something more usable out of core
21:03 celeron55 i for sure know how to do such but it isn't applicable at all here
21:03 celeron55 sapier is talking straight-up bullshit and i don't know why
21:03 smoke_fumus xD
21:03 smoke_fumus i figured that much
21:04 smoke_fumus celeron55: that gave me a good laugh. thanks.
21:05 sapier what I was trying to tell is adding security isn't that complicated but adding it in a way that community accepts it is difficult
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21:06 NakedFury add it. if they dont want it then they can take the highway
21:06 celeron55 well that's an another issue and not really even an issue in the first place
21:06 NakedFury my way or the highway
21:06 sapier but thats an annoying issue ;-) at least to me :-)
21:07 celeron55 afaik you already have the code done? where was it left the last time?
21:07 celeron55 was it related to the scriptapi rework or something
21:08 sapier no I haven't added it to scriptapi rework in order to get better chances the scriptapi work is merged
21:09 celeron55 speaking of which, could you please tell sometime on #-dev if you wish to have an api code freeze for that, or do you currently have an up-to-date pull request?
21:09 sapier it's not a big deal to be added there either cleaned up scriptapi architecture is way more compatible to security fixes
21:09 sapier I'll recheck it's been up to date 2 weeks ago when I rebased it to master
21:10 sapier and yes if there's a chance of freez I'll take it
21:10 celeron55 it's not about chance
21:10 celeron55 it's about you clearly telling to everyone when it starts and stops
21:10 celeron55 last time it wasn't clear enough, if there even was a time
21:11 sapier ok if this is my decision I'd prefere freeze till saturday 11pm gmt to rebase and prepare for merge
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21:13 celeron55 add scriptapi to that and shout it on #-dev
21:14 NakedFury with what you learned when making minetest, if you could go back and start it over. What would you change?
21:14 kaeza1 joined #minetest
21:15 celeron55 NakedFury: maybe approximately everything; altough that doesn't imply anything better
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21:16 PilzAdam would you even start again?
21:17 celeron55 that's impossible to judge; in this reality MT exists and it makes it worthless to start anew
21:18 smoke_fumus celeron55: ok. now question about mt. do you reuse verticles? i mean to example you have your chunk and there are planes which use simmiliar uv coordinates of atlas. do you merge their verticles together?
21:19 smoke_fumus *vertices
21:20 smoke_fumus FFFF~ i always forget how to type this word
21:20 celeron55 texture atlas was discarded as partically useless a while ago - also MT's lighting requires most vertices to remain in any case
21:21 smoke_fumus so no merging....this seems....unwise for lack of better term
21:22 khonkhortisan keep changing it until the lighting isn't wrong
21:22 celeron55 you're getting stuck in all kinds of things that are really minor
21:22 Warr1024 what would inefficient vertex use even cause?  poor FPS due to GPU bottleneck?  I don't have any such problem even on my Atom n450 with integrated graphics...
21:23 Warr1024 Unless I'm swarmed by CAO's, I get the feeling most of my CPU power goes to chunk receive and decode, which is probably my worst bottleneck.
21:24 celeron55 but of course again if you wish to implement such, i don't think anyone would complain 8)
21:24 celeron55 Warr1024: inefficient vertice use will, well, overally degrade rendering performance
21:25 celeron55 probably quite linearly for certain parts of rendering
21:25 preludelinux joined #minetest
21:25 celeron55 (wich may or may not mean anything in the full rendering cycle, depending on everything)
21:26 Warr1024 "depending on everything" <- not a comforting concept :-)
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21:26 celeron55 well that's what you get on today's complicated hardware, an optimization can either make something faster or do nothing :P
21:26 Warr1024 or slower, sometimes
21:27 celeron55 really currently a bigger bottleneck is the mesh generation speed rather than the speed of drawing meshes
21:28 Warr1024 reminds me of http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=15
21:28 celeron55 (depending on in what kind of a situation the player is in the game)
21:28 Warr1024 celeron55: yes, I can feel the mesh generation bottleneck alright.
21:28 Warr1024 walking from chunk to chunk gives me a lag spike every so often, no problems standing still.
21:29 celeron55 on an N450 you'll feel it right in your butt because it's a single-core processor
21:29 celeron55 it'll directly eat your FPS 8)
21:29 Warr1024 I gots the hyperthreading now though :-D
21:29 celeron55 on a dual core you just get more heat as the other core crunches the meshes away
21:30 Warr1024 (not that HT ever gives predictable performance benefits...)
21:30 Warr1024 yeah, generating optimized meshes when most of the world is solid stone surrounded on all sides by more solid stone is probably quite tricky.
21:31 smoke_fumus well, guys on unity3d did that.
21:31 smoke_fumus i mean reusing vertices is sides quads are near and share same atlas coordinates
21:32 smoke_fumus *on
21:32 smoke_fumus *IF
21:32 smoke_fumus *of quads
21:32 celeron55 Warr1024: well, considering rotations of nodes and all that, it does get a bit hairy
21:33 celeron55 smoke_fumus: minetest does a bit of that
21:34 smoke_fumus heheh.
21:34 celeron55 smoke_fumus: it just isn't particularly good at it; but i can assure you there are some connected faces like that when you walk around
21:34 smoke_fumus which basically connected if they share same texture. right?
21:34 celeron55 especially on flat ground
21:34 smoke_fumus celeron55: are you on windowS?
21:35 celeron55 we have zero core developers who use windows
21:35 smoke_fumus DAMN.
21:35 celeron55 it's useless for developing
21:35 Warr1024 what's a windows?
21:35 smoke_fumus celeron55: not it doesn't. if you use mingw that is
21:35 celeron55 it can run the end result though so we make builds for it, for whoever uses it
21:36 smoke_fumus on corebuilding - i agree it is useless
21:36 PilzAdam smoke_fumus, I can run mingw on Linux too
21:36 smoke_fumus yeaaa, but i meant windows development
21:36 celeron55 Warr1024: i hear it's some kind of program code the murricans sell with high price to each other
21:36 smoke_fumus whenever i'm outside interpreted languages and unity3d i use eclipse ide + mingw on windows
21:36 Warr1024 celeron55: not true: it's actually a form of tax on new computers.
21:37 smoke_fumus and i'm not planning moving out untill autodesk and adobe will make 3dsmax and photoshop for linux
21:37 smoke_fumus until then - hell no
21:37 Warr1024 3dsmax and photoshop?  are those like some kind of windows-world equivalent of blender and gimp?
21:38 iqualfragile1 yep
21:38 smoke_fumus blender and gimp are mediocre lackluster clones of 3dsmax and photoshop
21:38 smoke_fumus i take it back
21:38 smoke_fumus blender is shitty clone of maya
21:38 iqualfragile1 well… actualy blender got quite usable lately
21:38 iqualfragile1 and cammeratracing is awsome
21:38 smoke_fumus i tried recent versions
21:39 Warr1024 I find that the extra time it takes to do what I want to in gimp is time that I would have spent waiting for photoshop to load, anyway.
21:39 smoke_fumus iqualfragile1: polish a turd its still a turd :D
21:39 celeron55 tbh new versions of gimp suck
21:39 smoke_fumus gimp suck in general
21:39 celeron55 they should've stopped at 2.6
21:39 celeron55 or 2.4
21:39 Warr1024 yeah, I don't like some of the changes they made to their UI, for sure.
21:39 smoke_fumus Warr1024: also. use 64bit photoshop
21:39 smoke_fumus it is almost insta-loading
21:40 smoke_fumus that is if you have your 4-8 and above gb of memory
21:40 kaeza1 aww... single window Gimp 2.8 is lovely
21:40 smoke_fumus wait...WAIT
21:40 celeron55 Warr1024: 2.8 also has bugs that make it behave very annoyingly with my window manager
21:40 celeron55 (altough all other WMs tend to handle it sanely)
21:40 smoke_fumus kaeza1: did 2.8 finally moved panels in column-tabs like in photoshop since cs3?
21:41 sdzen left #minetest
21:41 Warr1024 celeron55: which wm?
21:41 celeron55 smoke_fumus: i have no idea what "panels in column-tabs like in photoshop since cs3" means but gimp 2.8 has a more or less working single windo mode
21:41 celeron55 Warr1024: icewm
21:41 celeron55 single window mode*
21:41 Warr1024 ah, I used that for a while, back when xfce was just too bloatey.
21:41 smoke_fumus *looks at screenshots* oh FINALLY. they made it usable
21:41 smoke_fumus downloading
21:42 celeron55 xfce is still too bloaty, and unpolished
21:42 kaeza1 celeron55, which WM?
21:42 kaeza1 smoke_fumus, PS is a pile of shit. don't ever mention it in my presence
21:42 Warr1024 lol
21:42 smoke_fumus kaeza1: i can tell you above few dozens of prooves that this statement is full of bull
21:42 john_minetest This new gimp one-window mode works great. And now I switched to windows with an old version of gimp and I am too lazy to update...
21:42 celeron55 lol isn't that a bit aggravating
21:43 NakedFury one windowed gimp? the world will end soon
21:43 Warr1024 frankly though, I rarely use gimp anymore now that I know inkscape pretty well.
21:43 kaeza1 IDK, I only talk BS 'cause I don't use Gimp or PS :P
21:43 smoke_fumus Warr1024: what about sai?
21:43 NakedFury I always use paint.net
21:43 Warr1024 smoke_fumus: what's sai?
21:43 kaeza1 ASEprite :3
21:44 celeron55 i use gimp, because there just isn't other software for linux that does what i need
21:44 john_minetest The only programs on my computer that are always up-to-date are firefox and thunderbird...
21:44 smoke_fumus one of the best image editors if you have graphical tablet
21:44 Warr1024 ah, I ain't got one of those.
21:44 Warr1024 I find inkscape to be one of the better ways to work around the lack of a tablet...
21:44 smoke_fumus i mean - sai paint tool just meant to be used for graphical tablet
21:44 iqualfragile1 inkscape takes like hours to start up
21:45 smoke_fumus it can be used for direct mouse manipulation - but its power is in custom drawing with different pressures
21:45 smoke_fumus something that you can't achieve with mouse button
21:45 iqualfragile1 and yeah, inkscape is an grapics editor, gimp is an immage manipulator
21:45 khonkhortisan click the button really fast for more pressure
21:45 john_minetest iqualfragile1: It might have a quite long startup, but it makes svgs and is very good at it.
21:45 * smoke_fumus slaps khonkhortisan in forehead
21:46 Warr1024 I used to draw in gimp, but now what I do in inkscape is probably more accurately described as "2d modelling"
21:46 iqualfragile1 i know, i like inkscape but it just takes hours to start up
21:46 smoke_fumus Warr1024: corel draw anyone?
21:46 john_minetest *11 seconds
21:46 Warr1024 heh, I think they used to have those on the macs back in my high school...
21:46 john_minetest Oooooh... Corel draw. It is so cool. I used it when I had it on my pc.
21:46 NakedFury I wish the ipad was more precise for paint programs. even with a pen for painting I can rarely continue a line
21:46 iqualfragile1 additionaly its hard to keep inkscape-generated files in an repository as they optimize the path atribute for size in inkscape svgs
21:47 iqualfragile1 wich is nonsense
21:47 john_minetest Oh, wait, I still have got Corel draw on my PC.
21:47 Warr1024 well, gotta go
21:47 Warr1024 see y'all later.
21:48 smoke_fumus *looks at single window gimp mode* this is exactly what i wanted from this editor
21:48 smoke_fumus awesome.
21:48 khonkhortisan But now when you open a jpg, edit it, re-save the jpg, and quit, it complains that the .xcf was modified.
21:49 smoke_fumus wat
21:49 smoke_fumus Wat?
21:49 john_minetest smoke_fumus: I used corel draw quite often when I was younger. I still have got Corel Draw (X3) on my PC but I use other programs for the things I am doing.
21:50 khonkhortisan Until you save as .xcf, your image "isn't saved".
21:50 khonkhortisan only exported, where you can lose the original
21:50 smoke_fumus john_minetest: corel draw is like the oldest of vector editors and as likely most powerful of them
21:50 khonkhortisan even if the export is the true original
21:50 smoke_fumus that's a bug
21:50 smoke_fumus not a feature
21:50 khonkhortisan both
21:50 john_minetest khonkhortisan: This "bug" is old. It happens in version 2.6 of gimp.
21:50 kaeza1 khonkhortisan, stupid "feature" if you ask me
21:51 smoke_fumus .....hell, entire windows milleniums is a feature and not a bug as microsoft says.
21:51 smoke_fumus *millenium
21:52 smoke_fumus although - technically speaking - ideas behind it is beyond awesome. 16bit media center based system, something which were basis for windows media center edition
21:52 smoke_fumus but execution is. ya all know the drill
21:52 john_minetest There was once a virus that affected nearly all browsers - except IE. It was a bug in IE that didn't follow the standard and so didn't accept the virus... lol.
21:53 smoke_fumus :D
21:54 smoke_fumus|2 joined #minetest
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21:58 john_minetest gtg, bye
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22:22 Kacey http://ifunny.mobi/f/SHbJAXt01
22:30 bcnjr5 Z̸̢͖̩̮̫̩̝̣̠̹͈̯͚̗̹͇̣̝ͨ͗͒ͧ̄̍̔̾̇͆̾̋̿̕͢͟A̵̸̲͍̬̻̯͓̋̍̉͑ͭ͗̏̂̾̇̏̔̎̎̚͠L̷̸̵̪̖̹̹̯̤̥͉̃ͩ̎ͣ͋͛͐̎̽ͨ͂͐ͭ̂ͧͪ̔͂ͮ͟ͅG̺̮͍̦͈̱̱̳̟̗̯̣͕͆͂̿̑͗̇ͪ̏̾͊̿ͤͯͣ͑̓͘̕͜͞Ơ̶̛̠̘̰̮̲̘͓͖̝̯̻̱̆͌̓̅̂̒͗̿͊̓ͧ̅̈͞!̷̴̴͍͍̯̦̳̮͚̝̠̣̲̪͈̻̽ͧ̃ͩ̓ͨ̊ͦ̀̑̏̊͂̓̇̋͜͠
22:30 smoke_fumus bcnjr5: OUT!
22:30 bcnjr5 What?
22:30 smoke_fumus wat was that?
22:30 bcnjr5 Unicode?
22:31 smoke_fumus ...
22:31 bcnjr5 ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:32 thexyz woo!
22:33 thexyz http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/TA8fphUJsoVfBsofo9MKUi
22:33 smoke_fumus ----
22:34 khonkhortisan that doesn't display right at all for me, starting selection at the right, I can go either way and it makes it longer
22:41 thexyz oh, well
22:41 thexyz it failed anyway
22:41 bcnjr5 joined #minetest
22:42 PilzAdam thexyz, but it failed epicly because everyone can see it!
22:42 ttk2 joined #minetest
22:45 thexyz i wonder why was it looking for intl.lib.lib
22:46 lordcirth joined #minetest
22:48 lordcirth Could someone explain how to register a node as a digilines effector / receiver?
22:49 iqualfragile1 nice a buildbot
22:50 lordcirth I've set effector{action=on_receive_digilines} but a print statement in on_receive_digilines never runs
22:50 Final joined #minetest
22:50 khonkhortisan digiline = { receptor = {}, effector = { action = func() }, },
22:51 lordcirth khonkhortisan: the declaration in effector{} needs the args as well?
22:51 cisoun left #minetest
22:51 lordcirth khonkhortisan: I'm using digilines_rtc for sample code
22:51 khonkhortisan no it's just the name of a function
22:52 lordcirth khonkhortisan: no () after?
22:52 khonkhortisan action = on_digiline_receive
22:52 lordcirth khonkhortisan: because that part of my code is identical to RTC, but it doesn't run
22:52 khonkhortisan Does your function have the same four arguments?
22:53 lordcirth khonkhortisan: yes
22:53 khonkhortisan setchan and timeofday don't need to be their own variables
22:54 khonkhortisan May I see the code?
22:55 thexyz okay, let's try again http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/C3aEeqfpNpJkXSQetXxCvC
22:56 lordcirth khonkhortisan: http://bpaste.net/show/97827/
22:57 khonkhortisan You sometimes do and don't put spaces around your equals
22:58 lordcirth khonkhortisan: bad form?
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23:00 khonkhortisan Does it depend on digilines?
23:00 lordcirth khonkhortisan: fixed. yes, default and digilines
23:02 thexyz well, fuck it
23:02 thexyz i'd better go to sleep
23:03 thexyz last try http://buildbot.minetest.net/build/jj6CFTLtTB7T7DSa6HkmV6
23:04 khonkhortisan worksforme digiline_send("1","2") message received
23:05 lordcirth khonkhortisan: you used a luacontroller to send the message?
23:06 khonkhortisan yep
23:08 lordcirth khonkhortisan: that works for me too - wierd
23:08 khonkhortisan what doesn't work?
23:08 lordcirth sending from digipad to lcd works, but not digipad -> wireless:trans
23:09 lordcirth and digipad -> luacontroller works too
23:12 lordcirth khonkhortisan: maybe I broke my digipad code? rolling back
23:14 lordcirth khonkhortisan: well that would do it, apparently I commented out receptor={} in digipad/init.lua
23:15 khonkhortisan so it wasn't being sent then
23:16 lordcirth khonkhortisan: apparently. Thanks!
23:20 * Kacey wants to help develop a wireless digilines mod!
23:23 bcnjr5 joined #minetest
23:24 Kacey http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5649062/digipad-v3.zip lordcirth
23:26 RealBadAngel hi all
23:27 Kacey can you send me an updated link?
23:28 lordcirth Kacey: check out digipadv6: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5649062/Minetest%20mods/digipadv6.zip
23:28 lordcirth Kacey: digipad now has buttons to select channel, and there's now a hardened digipad
23:29 Kacey lol ok
23:31 Kacey whatare the channel names?
23:31 lordcirth Kacey: "keypad1" "keypad2" "keypad3"
23:32 lordcirth Kacey: hardened digipad has identical code, just texture and groups are different. it has the same dig properties as a steel block.
23:34 lordcirth Kacey: I would be happy to have help with wireless
23:34 Kacey how do i use an interupt command?
23:35 lordcirth Kacey: http://mesecons.net/luacontroller/
23:37 Kacey i need to close my door after 5 seconds
23:38 harrison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt5SS67TE7c
23:38 lordcirth Kacey: should I make wireless infinite range? its looking like it would be simplest, if a 1 sec delay for abm is ok
23:39 lordcirth Kacey: interrupt(5,"closeDoor")
23:39 lordcirth Kacey: then at the beginning of the code, check if event.iid=="closeDoor"
23:43 harrison so the mesecons controller is an inworld IDE for a lua script
23:43 harrison i suppose minecraft has something similar
23:43 harrison i wonder what language
23:44 harrison second life's scripting is much more baroque
23:44 khonkhortisan it is a malformed sandbox
23:44 harrison sl?
23:44 khonkhortisan keywords cannot be redefined, so it does a simple string search.
23:45 khonkhortisan "--fork = spoon" will blacklist your script
23:45 RealBadAngel ive seen many in mc. best one is 6502 cpu with complete hardware, programmable in asm, and forth compiler wrote in it
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23:45 lordcirth RealBadAngel: A Forth compiler? that's amazing
23:45 harrison redefinition forbidden to to prevent attacks ?
23:45 khonkhortisan to prevent slowdown/freezing only
23:46 khonkhortisan you can attack just by installing a mod
23:46 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, thats a VMception!
23:46 RealBadAngel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pyrTM_aZQI
23:46 harrison for both SL scripting and minetest scripting, the client program is coded in a statically compiled language
23:47 lordcirth khonkhortisan: installing a mod on the client doesn't affect a server you connect to, does it?
23:47 khonkhortisan correct
23:47 khonkhortisan it only mods the singleplayer game
23:47 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, we could have easily programmable computer in minetest too
23:47 lordcirth khonkhortisan: so that's not really an "attack" like he probably meant
23:47 harrison thus scripting is in an interpreted language differing from the host language
23:48 khonkhortisan os.execute ftw
23:48 RealBadAngel but it would requite core code for it to work
23:48 harrison i wondered -- is this restriction inevitable?
23:48 khonkhortisan luacontrollers start with core lua keywords which cannot be redefined, then add some string, math, and api stuff to it.
23:49 harrison or can static code be compiled and injected into a running virtual world?
23:49 RealBadAngel http://libz80.sourceforge.net/
23:49 harrison the answer is yes of course
23:49 harrison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOocN1BKjh0
23:50 PilzAdam can somone just fork Minetest and turn it into an OS?
23:50 harrison you are all welcome to join #spasim
23:50 khonkhortisan Not until you can mod in-game
23:51 PilzAdam harrison, what is this spasim?
23:51 PilzAdam (I have seen the videos)
23:51 harrison spasim.org
23:51 sapier self modifying code is very bad style ;-) (don't tell me there might be some reasons thats true but not a common usecase)
23:52 harrison sapier: are you responding to my description ?
23:52 lordcirth How bad of a mem leak would it be to append all wireless msgs, short strings, to an array that never erased?
23:52 harrison i never worry about such things
23:52 sapier no  just read this conversation and what you describe is self modifying code
23:53 harrison no, it isn't
23:53 harrison no code is ever modified at runtime
23:53 harrison new code is compiled and injected
23:54 sapier if you write new code to be executed somewhere this is same as self modifying
23:54 harrison or rather introjected
23:54 harrison You seem to know a lot for someone who has no idea what I am talking about.
23:54 RealBadAngel anyone good in blender here?
23:55 harrison that's not funny
23:55 harrison my aunt died in an industrial blender
23:56 lordcirth harrison: were you responding to me when you said "i never worry about such things" ?
23:56 sapier you try to create an interpreter for code within an os like system run within an interpreter run on top of a compiled application running within an os running on a processor
23:56 harrison never worry about mem leaks, yes
23:56 harrison see sapier? no idea
23:57 harrison interpreter lol
23:57 sapier lua is an interpreter in standard case
23:57 lordcirth If you declare an array, and set elements [1] and [100], do 2-99 use any/much RAM?
23:57 RealBadAngel and all runnin in matrix... ;)
23:58 harrison your weak attempt at invoking an infinite regress has failed
23:58 thexyz lordcirth: yes