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IRC log for #minetest, 2012-12-25

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 marktraceur iqualfragile: You certainly seemed to have approximately the intelligence of a Windows user, so it was very difficult for us to tell.
00:01 iqualfragile thanks for the praise of my acting talent
00:03 VanessaE Ah, I figured it out!
00:05 mauvebic i knew that lol
00:05 mauvebic the minute you praised windows i told mark you were trolling him :p
00:06 iqualfragile yeah, you said something about that
00:06 markveidemanis Everyone go on the Zegathon server
00:06 mauvebic well who in their right mind would praise windows anyways lolo
00:06 iqualfragile markveidemanis: shure as soon as you give us the ip and jeijas patch for the server-lists gets merged in
00:07 mauvebic it can get you committed in some countries :-/
00:07 iqualfragile for example antarctika?
00:07 markveidemanis minetest.org:30015
00:09 noodric is it really necessary to Create a weperms.txt in the bin folder to use the worldedit mod
00:10 mauvebic you can hardcode
00:10 mauvebic uhm, ask sfan or uberi how to
00:12 noodric where is the "bin" folder on linux?
00:12 noodric worldedit should be part of minetest core!
00:12 marktraceur noodric: Did you compile the game or install it somehow?
00:12 noodric ubuntu c55 pps
00:12 noodric ppa
00:13 marktraceur I have never used that.
00:13 noodric minetestc55
00:13 marktraceur I'm looking
00:14 marktraceur noodric: Looks like /usr/bin
00:15 noodric i put a config file in usr/bin? sounds hacky
00:15 mauvebic 3 asteroids complete http://www.zimg.eu/i/2697872052
00:16 noodric i just updated from 0.3 to 0.44 - noticing the fly mode doesn't let you fly through walls nomore?
00:16 iqualfragile noodric: either get the code from github and compile it yourself
00:17 noodric and the e key isn't "down" when flying
00:17 iqualfragile or, if it was compiled whith -DRUN_IN_PLACE=0 which i guess it was then you should have a ~/.minetest/ folder
00:17 noodric yeah. i have that folder
00:18 marktraceur noodric: I don't know if that will be where files are loaded, though....
00:18 noodric i know... tried that
00:18 noodric anyway
00:19 noodric how does the engine work? how hard would it be to import a DEM as a map?
00:19 noodric Digital Elevation Model
00:19 noodric i guess the map is stored in sqlite
00:19 iqualfragile not _that_ hard but someone would need to write a converter for that thing
00:20 OldCoder iqualfragile, Should be practical. thexyz has export for other formats.
00:22 noodric how about integration with Interactive Fiction formats for a story mode?
00:24 OldCoder noodric, Interesting
00:26 noodric shortcut. might be awesome.
00:26 noodric if you could define a region as a room.
00:26 preludelinux_lap joined #minetest
00:27 noodric anyway what you guys are doing is awesome. thanks.
00:36 noodric http://code.google.com/p/garglk/source
00:36 moltenbot noodric's link: Source Checkout -
00:36 VanessaE there.
00:36 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/81
00:37 VanessaE that fixes Mese once and for all.
00:37 VanessaE in 25 years when no one will care about the old black and yellow mese thing, then c55 can finally delete it.
00:37 VanessaE :)
00:38 cisoun joined #minetest
00:38 noodric using interactive fiction as a story engine would be as retro as using the pixellated blocks. Having to type sentences to interact.
00:39 noodric and from an educational perspective, worldedit should be part of core.
00:42 VanessaE ok, screw that.  forget that last pull request,.
00:42 * VanessaE sighs heavily.
00:45 OldCoder noodric, It is a thought
00:46 noodric well I'm nobody but that's my input. Copy and past and multiblock selection in edit mode, the true creative mode, like sauerbraten.
00:46 noodric it is a sandbox game.
00:47 noodric i guess i better just learn to make mods.
00:48 noodric a cool block would be one that you could focus on and it is a web browser.
00:48 noodric so you can go to minetest wiki IN GAME
00:49 noodric If someone can do all three of those things I would pay them.
00:49 noodric i mean 4
00:51 noodric story mode based on tads3, browser block, file manager block, worldedit, DEM import. 5, Five things!
00:51 noodric and NES soundtrack!
00:51 sdzen 8 bit chiptune madness?
00:51 noodric ya
00:51 sdzen I agree Noodric!
00:52 noodric then unleash the thing.
00:53 noodric there should be a block that is a microscopic minecraft instance.
00:53 noodric $15 per block
00:54 noodric or a block that is a music block. you compose 8bit tunes in that block
00:54 noodric fruityloops graphical style music making
00:56 hmmmm joined #minetest
00:56 noodric and you could easily do scale the same way spore does it.
00:57 noodric each block could be another world.
00:57 noodric and with these games, why are there no cellular automata?
00:57 noodric you should make a brick that follows the rules of some cellular automata in 2 or 3d.
00:57 noodric that would kick ass.
00:58 noodric you could unleash a flasher or a bread loaf. watch it sail across the sky.
00:58 noodric intelligent blocks.
00:58 noodric china syndome block
00:58 noodric syndrom
00:59 noodric built in ventrillo would also be good. webcam faces.
01:01 noodric i like the forest fires in this new version.
01:01 sdzen i think they should spread quicker
01:01 sdzen it takes too long now
01:02 sdzen its almost as lame as minecrafts fires now
01:03 noodric we need tectonics and airmasses
01:03 noodric and groundwater
01:03 sdzen that would be cool mr idea guy
01:04 noodric 7 things then
01:06 noodric well what's the new direction then?
01:07 iqualfragile forget - browser-block, filemanagerblock
01:07 iqualfragile but celular automata are easy
01:07 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82
01:08 VanessaE THERE!  Now everyone can stop bitching about the change.
01:08 noodric you should be able to define a CA block graphically, based on the nearest neighbors.
01:09 noodric 8. and a few ways to make decisions about the next timeblock
01:09 noodric in the game is blocktime also pixellated?
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01:19 LunaVorax joined #minetest
01:20 Exio http://cadoth.net/~exio4/mt/make.gcc.log
01:20 LunaVorax Here you go VanessaE
01:20 Exio (or http://cadoth.net/~exio4/mt/make.log), any ideas?
01:20 Exio only 'cmake .' + 'make'
01:20 Exio it compiled a bit ago
01:20 VanessaE there we go, much better.
01:20 Exio like 4~ days
01:20 VanessaE hi LunaVorax  :-)
01:21 Exio hi btw
01:21 VanessaE Exio: I haven't the foggiest clue :-)
01:21 Exio haha
01:23 iqualfragile Exio: yeah, repull, retry, that should have been fixed 2-3 days ago
01:23 Exio haha
01:23 Exio Already up-to-date.
01:26 q66 joined #minetest
01:29 Exio recloning it
01:30 noobile joined #minetest
01:35 noobile autonomous block?
01:35 Exio iqualfragile: i still have the problem
01:35 Exio any ideas?
01:35 Exio git clone http://github.com/celeron55/minetest;cd minetest;cmake .;make == that
01:38 iqualfragile nah, i run out of ideas…
01:39 Exio hm, k
01:39 Exio i will play xonotic then :P
01:40 iqualfragile pff, get a compiled version from minetest.net/download
01:40 Exio nah
01:57 iqualfragile yeah, well, good night
01:57 Jakssoul joined #minetest
01:57 nyuszika7h joined #minetest
02:20 VanessaE zzz
02:20 ruskie joined #minetest
02:38 OldCoder ruskie, wb
02:38 OldCoder ruskie, You awake?
02:42 Jakssoul joined #minetest
02:42 Jakssoul 'Ello, everyone.
02:42 OldCoder Jakssoul, Hi
02:43 Jakssoul OldCoder, how's your day been?
02:43 OldCoder Good
02:43 OldCoder Productive
02:43 OldCoder I will have blog stuff to post tonight
02:43 OldCoder Quiet in IRC
02:43 OldCoder People seem happy
02:43 OldCoder day++
02:44 Jakssoul I told a die hard Christian that "God" isn't real today. Made my day! :D (I'm terrible.)
02:44 VanessaE heh
02:45 Jakssoul I'm probably more amused by it than I should be.
02:45 VanessaE Jakssoul: you wanna really fuck with them?  tell them the devil doesn't exist.
02:45 Jakssoul Why's that?
02:45 VanessaE they seem to take that worse than claims of G*d's non-existence :-)
02:45 Jakssoul The second I said it, I was threatened with Brimstone. Not hell, just Brimstone.
02:45 Jakssoul I was like, "Uhmmm?"
02:46 VanessaE OldCoder: update coming in about 7 minutes, give or take.
02:46 VanessaE at your leisure.
02:46 Jakssoul Brimstone and Limestone, actually. This woman thinks god talks to her. Like, Skypes her and stuff.
02:46 Jakssoul Hahahaa. (Not literally Skype, but you get the point I hope.)
02:46 OldCoder VanessaE, fine
02:46 VanessaE Jakssoul: *shrug* I don't know what gets the fundies so fired up.  :-/
02:47 OldCoder Jakssoul, VanessaE It is about people and not faith. I have met people of faith who have changed my feelings. I now judge individuals based on what they do.
02:47 Jakssoul They believe they are just and right. Any human that believes they are in the right is a dangerous force.
02:47 OldCoder Yes
02:47 OldCoder But the line is... self righteous
02:47 OldCoder There are those who are humble
02:47 OldCoder I have come to respect them
02:48 Jakssoul Agnostics, Atheists, Spiritualists, Religious, anyone. Scary scary.
02:48 Jakssoul Yes. I agree OldCoder.
02:48 OldCoder Yes
02:48 VanessaE OldCoder: the problem is when a believer, one way or the other, feels the need to force their opinions on you even after you've clearly indicated yours.
02:49 OldCoder I have just written a Christmas Eve essay for a Fundamentalist friend. It will be blogged. He tries to help people. Others try to... crush.
02:49 OldCoder Yes
02:49 OldCoder There are Pharisees
02:49 * OldCoder wants nothing to do with those
02:49 Jakssoul Yeah. I'm in foster care (I'm about to be turning 18 on New Years Eve, just so you guys know), and my foster Mother was the one I told this to.
02:49 VanessaE Jakssoul: ouch.
02:49 OldCoder How did she react?
02:49 Jakssoul Brimstone and Limestone.
02:50 VanessaE not positively, by the sound of it
02:50 OldCoder Jakssoul, and were you born with the year then?
02:50 VanessaE limestone though?
02:50 Jakssoul Hahahaaahaha. She's been forcing her religion on me for weeks.
02:50 OldCoder You spoke up
02:50 * OldCoder imagines the scene
02:50 OldCoder Heh
02:50 Jakssoul Yeahhh. She told me I was shameful for not willing to go home to an abusive step father.
02:50 Jakssoul God would fix things if I just went home.
02:50 OldCoder Oh boy
02:50 Jakssoul Then.. well.. "God's not real." *Walks away*.
02:51 * OldCoder chuckles
02:51 Jakssoul *Hears in background* LIMESTONE AND BRIMSTONE AWAIT YEEE BOY!
02:51 VanessaE see, now if this weren't your mom, it would be the part where you also say how you're gay or you're gonna marry a person of color, etc.
02:51 OldCoder Limestone
02:51 OldCoder Limestone?
02:51 Jakssoul Yes. Limestone.
02:51 VanessaE yeah, I don't get the limestone bit.  can you elaborate
02:51 VanessaE ?
02:51 OldCoder That is for buildings isn't it?
02:51 Jakssoul I don't know. She's not well educated on her religion.
02:51 Jakssoul Yes it is, foundation.
02:51 OldCoder Thought so. Thank her for the construction material.
02:52 VanessaE lol
02:52 Jakssoul Hahahahahaha! Wonderful.
02:52 OldCoder Jakssoul, I was raised by such people
02:52 VanessaE /giveme mom:limestone_block 999
02:52 OldCoder It did not go well
02:52 OldCoder Heh
02:52 VanessaE ok, I'm bad.
02:52 Jakssoul That was perfection.
02:52 VanessaE /giveme mom:brimstone_block 666
02:52 VanessaE ;)
02:52 Jakssoul I laughed SO HARD. But I apologize, OldCoder. It's never good.
02:52 OldCoder Yep
02:52 Jakssoul 666? It just keeps getting better.
02:52 Jakssoul ;)
02:52 OldCoder Hey, Kenneth... BTW Merry Christmas :P
02:53 * OldCoder chuckles again
02:53 OldCoder It's a pretty good essay that's going up
02:53 OldCoder We should have churches in MT. Cathedrals and Bazaars.
02:53 Jakssoul Then, at dinner tonight, she had some 84 year old woman I've never met. She was belittling me the entirety of the time. Then dinner ends with "You can believe whatever you want though."
02:53 OldCoder Perhaps Old Testament scenes.
02:54 OldCoder Sounds...
02:54 OldCoder Huh
02:54 OldCoder Why did you stay?
02:54 Jakssoul Stay?
02:54 OldCoder At the table?
02:54 OldCoder Put up with it?
02:54 Jakssoul I'm respectful of those I have to live with.
02:54 Jakssoul Parents, foster or not.
02:54 OldCoder You are required to be civil and respectful
02:54 OldCoder But that is different is it not?
02:54 VanessaE I am SO glad I'm Jewish.  Sorry for the Christians in this channel, but *groan* I cannot fathom why anyone would treat someone that way.
02:54 VanessaE it's wrong in so many ways.
02:54 Jakssoul I suppose it is, yes. But, I kept my mouth shut and sat there.
02:54 OldCoder VanessaE, It is any faith or even secular matters
02:55 OldCoder The dividing line is... self righteous
02:55 VanessaE true.
02:55 OldCoder So I watch for that in myself
02:55 OldCoder <-- not perfect, to be clear
02:55 VanessaE we have our fundies in this faith too (Orthodox, Hasidim).
02:55 OldCoder A little humility goes a long way
02:55 OldCoder Yep
02:55 OldCoder BUT
02:55 OldCoder Not every "fundie" in any faith wishes to crush you
02:55 OldCoder Some actually have... faith
02:56 OldCoder For others it is about something else
02:56 OldCoder Hmm
02:56 VanessaE of course I'm about as reform as it gets - I listen to christmas music, enjoy the lights, eat pizza with plenty of pork products, wear clothes of mixes fibers,.... :-)
02:56 OldCoder Pork Products
02:56 OldCoder That is plenty reformed all right :-)
02:56 Jakssoul Mmmm. Yes, generalizing religious people is never good. Though, in general (I'm about to do it anyway), they generalize agnostics, atheists, or people of any other religion as evil.
02:56 OldCoder Yep
02:56 OldCoder And yet...
02:56 VanessaE OldCoder: well I'm using "fundie" specifically to mean those who choose to "crush", as you put it.  Not in the generic sense.
02:56 OldCoder Yep
02:56 OldCoder Both of you have valid perspectives
02:57 OldCoder Here is an irony
02:57 OldCoder I will not take up the channel with much personal business but this I will say...
02:57 VanessaE pork products.  I love my dead, cooked pig - with cheese ;-)
02:57 Jakssoul HAHA. (Nicccee..) Yes, OldCoder?
02:57 OldCoder My fundamentalist father seeks to crush me. My fundamentalist attorney fights back and writes letters consigning him to Hell. And fundamentalist friends support. It is fundamentalist fun.
02:58 OldCoder :D
02:58 Jakssoul I'd like to apologize to everyone for clogging this channel up with my personal stuff.
02:58 VanessaE dayum
02:58 Jakssoul Wow. That seems a fun cycle.
02:58 OldCoder Jakssoul, It is quiet tonight
02:58 Zephyr joined #minetest
02:58 OldCoder Go for it until somebody else speaks of Minetest
02:58 VanessaE OldCoder:  "But, he told me to go to hell!"  "Well, I checked the law on that and...you don't have to go."
02:58 OldCoder Yep
02:58 Jakssoul Hahahaha!
02:58 VanessaE (Bobby Jones commenting to a client during his years as a lawyer)
02:58 OldCoder The other side did not reply to that part if I recall correctly
02:58 OldCoder Heh
02:59 Jakssoul After I told her "God" is not real, she later said at dinner "God told me you didn't believe in him weeks ago." So that's why you kept praying with me and "PRETENDING" that you didn't know.
02:59 Jakssoul Lies lies lies. Fun fun!
03:00 Jakssoul Praying for me*
03:00 VanessaE as depicted in the movie (Bobby Jones: Stroke of Genius), the old man just kinda smiled knowing he didn't really need to pursue it any further :-)
03:00 VanessaE Jakssoul:  *facepalm*
03:00 VanessaE OldCoder: uploading now...
03:01 Jakssoul Anyway, how's that olddd Minetest going? :P I tried getting my Fiance to play. She played singleplayer and apparently didn't like it. o.O
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03:01 VanessaE Jakssoul: it's going well :-)
03:02 Jakssoul It kind of blew my mind. What's not to like!? :p
03:02 Jakssoul It sucks, because her laptop has 8 times as much RAM as mine does, has a screen almost twice as big, and a WAAAY bigger harddrive. All she does is use Facebook. *groans*
03:02 VanessaE Jakssoul: my husband is in the same boat as your fiancé - he doesn't see what's so special about it.
03:03 VanessaE (he prefers board games and pinball)
03:03 Jakssoul *GASPS*
03:03 VanessaE OldCoder: upload complete.  You may update when ready :-)
03:03 Jakssoul Like, windows Pinball? Or real pinball?
03:03 VanessaE Windows pinball actually.
03:04 VanessaE he has like three different ones he plays, plus Emelia pinball on linux.
03:04 Jakssoul I just cried for you. I'm so sorry! xD
03:04 Jakssoul Hahahaa. :p
03:04 VanessaE heh
03:05 VanessaE to him, I'm obsessed. :-)
03:05 sdzen windows pinball is fun actually
03:05 Jakssoul Windows Pinball is fun until the sound effects aren't fun. At least, for me. XD
03:05 VanessaE sdzen: did you see the revised pull request?  it's even better than before :-)
03:06 VanessaE sdzen: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82
03:06 VanessaE Jakssoul: he plays without audio turned on, via a virtual machine.
03:06 VanessaE (like he, he runs linux)
03:07 Jakssoul Wait. What?
03:07 NakedFury joined #minetest
03:07 Jakssoul He likes it... WITHOUT AUDIO?
03:07 Jakssoul It's... it's... It's WORTHLESS without the amazing sound effects! Is he currently suffering from some kind of crippling mental disorder? (If he really is, I was kidding, I promise!!!)
03:08 VanessaE haha
03:08 VanessaE no, neither of us cares much for sound effects in games except on a limited basis.
03:08 sdzen hmmmm
03:08 sdzen is it bad if i like the old fix better?
03:08 sdzen with this one it makes creating mese blocks kinda cheap
03:09 Jakssoul I don't like sound effects either. Except in Pinball.
03:09 sdzen i liked the make mese blocks like making steel blocks thing
03:09 VanessaE sdzen: they still are.
03:09 sdzen hmmm?
03:09 VanessaE this just makes it so the old mese object is still available, but deprecated,.
03:09 sdzen wha....
03:09 sdzen now im lost
03:10 sdzen how many different mese''sss are there?
03:10 VanessaE szden:  the old mese object, plus the new ore, blocks, crystals, fragments.
03:10 VanessaE the old mese object can be crafter into crystals too, so it doesn't lose any value. :-)
03:10 VanessaE crafted.
03:11 VanessaE I covered everything with this update.
03:11 sdzen hmmmm
03:11 hmmmm hmmmm
03:11 VanessaE hmmm?
03:11 Jakssoul How do I use player textures?
03:11 sdzen you know these are the kind of things that should be covered before you commit
03:11 sdzen just saying
03:12 Jakssoul Bahaha. Same as other textures? Or am I being a dumb newb and there is a guide somewhere?
03:12 VanessaE Jakssoul: on a server, you just ask the admin to install whatever minecraft (yes) skin you want.  for singleplayer use it's kinda pointless since you can't see yourself :-)
03:12 VanessaE but yeah, they behave like any other texture.
03:12 VanessaE name it character.png or some such, and put it in minetest/textures/all
03:12 Jakssoul Oh darn. I was going to put it on singleplayer assuming I could go to 3rd person perspective like Minecraft. Forgot! Wooops.
03:13 Jakssoul I was going to Slenderman creep on trees. xD
03:13 sdzen I mean how many pull requests have I seen that get thrown under incredible scrutiny before being commited
03:13 sdzen lots before
03:13 sdzen not so many now.....
03:14 VanessaE sdzen: let's face it, as a coder I suck :-)
03:15 VanessaE sdzen: besides, in this case it was more a matter of realizing how dumb a given idea is and ripping it apart for a revisal :-)
03:17 sdzen i must admit this idea got much more attention then any other idea ive seen in some time
03:17 sdzen mainly because there was a vote
03:17 sdzen which never happens
03:19 VanessaE well the end result is a better model for mese anyway :-)
03:19 VanessaE and since the old stuff ain't generated anymore after this change, it'll gradually fade into obscurity like it was originally meant to :-)
03:24 Jakssoul Money.
03:24 Exio wait, mese changed?
03:24 Exio when?!
03:24 Exio i missed something :P
03:25 VanessaE Exio: a few days ago; the aforementioned pull request just tunes it a bit.
03:25 Jakssoul Holy LIMESTONE! I am trying to delete a texture pack and it's taking forever!!!
03:28 OldCoder VanessaE, I have been in a meeting. Updating now.
03:28 VanessaE OldCoder: at your leisure.
03:29 Jakssoul Anyone know how to get "jordach's" Minecraft texture pack to work? His instructions direct you to extract a foler into /minetest/games/    , but I've had no change in the game after doing that?
03:29 Exio well
03:30 VanessaE Jakssoul: copy the PNG files to minetest/textures/all
03:30 Exio https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commit/40dac4cde4782943eb00f7bfc7ce2d99135be7c9
03:30 moltenbot Exio's link: Fixed u64 ambiguous symbol error ?  40dac4c ? celeron55/minetest ? GitHub
03:30 Jakssoul Alrighty. That it?
03:30 Exio that was my problem VanessaE
03:30 Jakssoul There are no PNG files.
03:31 OldCoder VanessaE, same links?
03:31 OldCoder VanessaE, the map or the mods or both?
03:31 VanessaE yep
03:31 VanessaE I update all four links at once
03:32 OldCoder All right
03:32 OldCoder D/Lg
03:32 OldCoder VanessaE, my... your world is growing :-)
03:33 VanessaE indeed it is :-)
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03:56 mauvebic joined #minetest
04:02 VanessaE morning, mauvebic and whoever else :-)
04:02 VanessaE (or evening as the case may be)
04:03 OldCoder Yep
04:07 jojoa1997 joined #minetest
04:07 jojoa1997 just wondering who is here
04:07 jojoa1997 MERRY CHRISTMAS
04:08 VanessaE hi jojo
04:09 jojoa1997 hi did you look at my mod
04:09 OldCoder jojoa1997, which one?
04:09 jojoa1997 sorry to be rude how was your christmas?
04:10 jojoa1997 oldcoder: i got my npc mod top work \o/
04:10 OldCoder Good for you!
04:10 OldCoder Link?
04:10 OldCoder I will review this weke
04:10 leo_rockway greetings
04:10 OldCoder I will review this week *
04:10 VanessaE jojoa1997: not yet, I haven't had a chance
04:10 OldCoder leo_rockway, hey
04:10 VanessaE I have it open in a tab though
04:10 VanessaE evening leo_rockway
04:10 jojoa1997 http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4167
04:10 moltenbot jojoa1997's link: [Mod] Peaceful NPC [1.2] [peaceful_npc] (Page 1) - Mod Releases - Minetest Forums
04:11 jojoa1997 oldcoder:cant wait for review and ending up to do what i wanted i just needed to tell the node to do the spawning function if there was less than max
04:12 jojoa1997 not to stop it if there is more than max
04:12 VanessaE jojoa1997: you are certain this thing is stable?
04:12 jojoa1997 yes
04:12 VanessaE jojoa1997: how long did you let it run on your game afrer your last change before declaring it so?
04:12 VanessaE after*
04:12 leo_rockway what do peaceful mobs do? do they provide raw materials?
04:12 jojoa1997 gonna test it again though just for you
04:12 VanessaE leo_rockway: you can kill them for mese crystal fragments.
04:13 jojoa1997 when you kill them you get a mese fregment
04:13 leo_rockway okay
04:13 jojoa1997 shot found a problem
04:13 VanessaE jojoa1997: I suggest having them drop a Mese Crystal
04:13 jojoa1997 shoot
04:13 jojoa1997 k
04:13 VanessaE but only randomly, say a 1 in 4 chance of it.
04:14 VanessaE well no
04:14 VanessaE make that about a 1 in 10 chance.
04:14 VanessaE make the player work a bit for it
04:14 Exio 1/50
04:14 jojoa1997 brb
04:14 OldCoder jojoa1997, c u
04:14 jojoa1997 1/15
04:14 VanessaE 1/50?  That's a bit low isn't it?
04:17 Exio well, yes
04:18 jojoa1997 how is this   if self.object:get_hp() == 0 then
04:18 jojoa1997 local obj = minetest.env:add_item(self.object:getpos(), "default:mese_crystal_fragment") end
04:19 jojoa1997 chance = 15
04:19 jojoa1997 end
04:19 VanessaE I dunno about the chance variable, but make it default:mese_crystal
04:19 VanessaE (not fragment)
04:19 VanessaE they're more useful than fragments
04:20 jojoa1997 can you craft a crystal out of fragments
04:22 jojoa1997 well can you
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04:29 VanessaE no
04:29 VanessaE crystals can only be broken, not put together
04:29 VanessaE the idea of fragments is that they be used to low-power items
04:41 Kacey joined #minetest
04:41 Kacey hello
04:41 VanessaE hey
04:41 Kacey mythbuntu is pretty cool
04:42 Kacey runs chromium natively
04:42 Kacey brb
04:52 Jordach joined #minetest
04:52 Jordach joined #minetest
04:53 Jordach hello all
04:53 * Jordach flops down sleepily on the channel sofa
04:54 VanessaE hey that's MY spot
04:54 VanessaE shove over!
04:54 VanessaE :)
04:55 Jordach heh
04:55 VanessaE Jordach: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82
04:55 VanessaE better?
04:57 home_ joined #minetest
04:57 home_ back
04:57 * VanessaE wonders who home_ is :-)
04:58 Kacey_ lol wow
04:58 VanessaE that's better
04:58 Kacey_ xubuntu 12.04
04:59 Kacey_ gtg
04:59 Kacey_ nvm
05:01 * VanessaE pokes at Jordach
05:01 * Jordach reuturns said poke
05:01 VanessaE Jordach: code ^^^^^
05:01 * Kacey_ pokes himself
05:02 Jordach already looked
05:02 VanessaE and?
05:03 Jordach its good
05:04 VanessaE good, now where the hell is PilzAdam at to push it through :-)
05:06 Renoki joined #minetest
05:06 Exio in /dev/reallife :P
05:07 VanessaE I/O error reading /dev/reallife:  No such file/directory.
05:07 Jordach in real life: linux cannot be life
05:07 Jordach also, hes been very active on xbox live
05:08 Exio hehe
05:08 VanessaE cool
05:09 Exio Jordach: who said linux?
05:09 Exio /dev comes from unix!
05:09 SpeedProg joined #minetest
05:09 Jordach also: hes been playing SKYRIM
05:10 * hohoho thinks he's going senile ~_~
05:10 Jordach https://live.xbox.com/en-GB/Profile?gamertag=PilzAdam
05:10 moltenbot Jordach's link: PilzAdam's Profile - Xbox.com
05:10 Jordach see?
05:11 Kacey_ brb
05:16 Jordach VanessaE, 5:16 am and the tv has crap on :(
05:16 Jordach (literally crap shows.)
05:16 VanessaE there's a surprise :-/
05:16 VanessaE I gave up watching TV long ago, generally.
05:16 Jordach fuck it, youtube!
05:16 hohoho hey VanessaE same here. not watched tv in about 5 years or so
05:17 Jordach so thats why you live in /dev/null
05:17 hohoho sorry im not more talkative tonight. trying to remember my passwords to my email and encrypted stashes
05:17 hohoho lol
05:17 hohoho I can tell my minds not as sharp as it used to be
05:18 hohoho btw VanessaE just wanted to mention that somehow you seem and feel like an old friend. one that's been around forever. yet I don't know you lol
05:18 hohoho anyone else have same feeling from them?
05:18 VanessaE heh
05:18 VanessaE well thanks :-)
05:18 Exio going to sleep, night
05:19 hohoho night exio
05:19 * VanessaE groans in tiredness
05:19 * hohoho passes some coffee?
05:19 VanessaE I/O reading /dev/brain:  Bus error
05:19 VanessaE aw fuck I blew it :-)
05:20 VanessaE coffee sounds pretty good.  pass the cream and stevia?
05:20 VanessaE more than that.  I like a little coffee with my cream :-)
05:21 hohoho I used to drink my coffee black (back when I was good at making coffee)
05:22 Kacey joined #minetest
05:22 Kacey back
05:23 hohoho wb kacey
05:24 Kacey ty
05:26 Kacey VanessaE
05:31 VanessaE Oh sure, I step away for 5 mins and I miss something
05:33 VanessaE well 10 mins
05:37 Kacey joined #minetest
05:37 Kacey back
05:37 VanessaE wb
05:37 VanessaE you rang?
05:37 Kacey aah yes i seem to not be able to load the map
05:38 VanessaE oh no.. not again :(
05:38 Kacey what?
05:42 Kacey what?
05:44 * Kacey is phasing in and out of reality
05:44 jojoa1997 joined #minetest
05:45 VanessaE the server mapgen is jammed again.
05:45 VanessaE wtf is the problem??????
05:45 Kacey jammed?
05:45 VanessaE Kacey: it ain't loading for me, or for jojoa1997
05:46 Kacey hmmm server restart?
05:46 Kacey would that work at all?
05:51 * Kacey is extremely bored
06:02 Kacey joined #minetest
06:02 Kacey back
06:03 Jordach OldCoder, still here?
06:03 kaeza joined #minetest
06:03 Kacey hallo
06:03 kaeza hello everyone
06:03 OldCoder Jordach, yes
06:03 kaeza and merry christmas ^_^
06:03 Jordach okay.
06:03 OldCoder Preparing to add stuff
06:03 Jordach and yes
06:04 Jordach im up real early
06:04 OldCoder I'd still like to see your xmas mod
06:04 Jordach just use the creative world
06:04 Jordach which is port?
06:04 Kacey VanessaE are you alive?
06:05 VanessaE no
06:05 kaeza hi Kacey
06:05 kaeza hey hey VanessaE
06:05 Kacey ok then
06:05 Jordach O.O
06:05 Kacey hallo
06:05 mauvebic iive dipped in slightly into the holiday sauce :S
06:05 VanessaE what's up, kacey?
06:05 mauvebic perhaps later we'll be able to trip the title and festive :-)
06:05 Kacey have you fixed the mapgen issue yet?
06:06 VanessaE I restarted it
06:06 kaeza juyst great... it's raining now
06:06 kaeza so fck beach day tomorrow
06:06 Jordach VanessaE, how much room does the vps have
06:06 Kacey ok so that means my skin is on?
06:07 VanessaE you know something is seriously screwed up when I can't even get it to load more than the immediate spawn area (it eventually loaded after waiting about 6 or 7 minutes) and I'm running the client on the same machine as the server.
06:07 mauvebic you can have a snow day here
06:07 Jordach is this your own pc?
06:07 VanessaE Jordach: it's my PC, and it presently has 16GB free in the drive the server's files are on.
06:07 Jordach try windows. might be faster.. *sniggers*
06:07 VanessaE >:-(
06:07 leo_rockway kaeza: the rain didn't last much here. But they say it's going to rain a lot more in a few hours.
06:07 Kacey brb
06:08 Jordach VanessaE, i ran a server off this pc before and it ran xp
06:08 Jordach 7 people without issues
06:08 VanessaE Jordach: something has severely broken in the server code if it can't even stay up 6 hours without a restart.  I don't mean to bitch, but this has gotta be fixed.
06:09 Jordach did any commit recently change server.cpp
06:10 VanessaE checking...
06:10 kaeza leo_rockway: hope that's true
06:11 VanessaE Jordach: plenty of stuff in november.
06:11 Jordach when was 0.4.4 stable
06:11 VanessaE damned if I can even begin to figure out where to look
06:12 VanessaE Dec. 6
06:13 mauvebic my map is over 4 months old and it has no problems :/
06:13 VanessaE yeah but do you run a server 24/7?
06:13 aldobr joined #minetest
06:14 Jeija joined #minetest
06:14 mauvebic do you really think uptime is the issue?
06:14 VanessaE yes.
06:15 VanessaE For the first few hours it's fine.  after about 4-6 hours, somewhere in that range, the map generator/loader/something-er stops sending useful data to the client
06:15 aldobr hi all
06:15 mauvebic maybe one of your players inadvertenly did something to cause a mod conflict?
06:15 VanessaE in effect the map won't load then.
06:16 VanessaE a mod conflict would be reflected in the CPU usage of the server e.g. lockups or so.  that isn't happening.
06:16 mauvebic well this one time i accidentally shot a ball of 100 saplings, the map wouldn't load until i disabled saplings
06:17 VanessaE the map stops loading, but the CPU usage stays tolerable (less than 50% anyway) and people can still chat - and I can execute commands e.g. /status or /time and get instant responses.
06:19 mauvebic how much of the map you can save?
06:19 VanessaE eh?
06:19 aldobr why generated map chunks are stored ? why dont just store the deltas and have the client side generate chunks everytime the player enter then ?
06:19 mauvebic well, do you have the same problem with backup copies?
06:19 VanessaE the map is only 207 MB.
06:19 mauvebic compressed?
06:20 VanessaE mauvebic: raw.
06:20 mauvebic mine is twice that raw and i dont have that problem ::/
06:20 mauvebic but did you try backups?
06:20 VanessaE I've tried before.
06:20 VanessaE at least once.
06:20 mauvebic and you get the same thing?
06:20 VanessaE yup.
06:20 mauvebic i still vote mod conflict then
06:20 VanessaE and thexyz confirmed that my map files are not corrupted.
06:21 VanessaE define "mod conflict"
06:22 mauvebic well just with default mods and my modpack oldcoder and i had a hard time getting my doors to work
06:22 OldCoder Oh?
06:22 OldCoder Yes
06:22 mauvebic they wouldn't open for some reason lol
06:22 mauvebic i still haven't found the bug so i left the doors open in the meantime lol
06:23 VanessaE well this is all-grey screen no map at all kind of stuff.  Not some mod fails to operate.
06:23 mauvebic mod conflict can be anything: having two mods use the same global variable name (can happen with lots of mods)
06:23 mauvebic well its not a mod fail but something could be eating up the CPU or causing a recursive cycle
06:23 neko259 joined #minetest
06:23 Jordach like mesecons
06:23 VanessaE eating CPU?  it only uses about 40% or so when it does this.
06:24 VanessaE it's a bug in the engine, plain and simple.
06:24 mauvebic nakedfury told me about two or three mods he had that shared the same craft
06:24 mauvebic who else has the same problem then?
06:24 VanessaE thexyz had it happen once.  oldcoder's servers used to do it, too.
06:24 mauvebic until he went with levelDB?
06:25 VanessaE so it would appear.
06:25 OldCoder Could be masking the problem
06:25 Jordach could sql be locking minetest out of access
06:25 mauvebic if it was a db thing, my world should be crapping out too?
06:25 Jordach when minetest is the current host
06:25 OldCoder mauvebic, You mean... only a db problem
06:26 mauvebic where are metas stored, the db?
06:27 Kacey joined #minetest
06:27 Kacey back
06:28 mauvebic vanessae does the mapper app still work on your world?
06:29 VanessaE yep
06:29 VanessaE kacey, server going down.
06:30 mauvebic the mapper could be tweaked to make a giant WEP
06:31 aldobr my question was not answered :/
06:31 aldobr why generated map chunks are stored ? why dont just store the deltas and have the client side generate chunks everytime the player enter then ?
06:31 aldobr *then = them
06:31 kaeza aldobr: hi
06:32 kaeza merry christmas
06:32 aldobr doesnt make sense
06:32 kaeza ^_^
06:32 aldobr merry christmas
06:32 kaeza that's also a question of mine
06:32 Kacey back?
06:32 aldobr its quite inefficent
06:32 Kacey wow
06:32 Kacey when will server be up?
06:32 kaeza that should relive some traffic from the server
06:32 aldobr the whole point of a procedurally generated map is that you dont use a lot of memmory
06:33 aldobr cause anything can be recalled from the generating algorithm
06:33 aldobr just store whatever change the players done to the map
06:33 aldobr using a kind of journal
06:33 kaeza marktraceur: since you are "closer" to the core dev team, can this be implemented?
06:33 aldobr indexed by x,y,z of chunks
06:34 aldobr and thats all
06:35 Kacey VanessaE is server up?
06:35 VanessaE it is now.
06:35 Kacey k
06:36 aldobr when player enters an unloaded chunk
06:36 aldobr it generates that chunk locally
06:36 VanessaE aldobr: maybe it's faster to store the map and then reload it than to just re-generate it all the time?
06:36 aldobr if the random seed is the same as the server, the result will be the same (cause the number is pseudorandom)
06:36 aldobr the client then asks the server for the deltas relative to that chunk
06:36 kaeza VanessaE: what we mean is to just send the delta (i.e difference) of the map
06:37 aldobr and apply the deltas to the chunk
06:37 aldobr and show the result to player
06:37 kaeza and initially generate the map on the client
06:37 aldobr VanessaE, look at incremental backups
06:37 aldobr they work right like that
06:37 aldobr or mpeg video
06:37 aldobr same theory
06:37 VanessaE yes I know.
06:38 aldobr its a kind of compression
06:38 VanessaE but you still have to repeatedly call the map generator code, or you have to load the generated data from disk/memory - one or the other.
06:38 aldobr this is the size x speed constraint
06:38 kaeza but it's still faster than sending the map over the network
06:38 aldobr usually network + disk is slower than processor these days
06:39 kaeza and less resource intensive for the network
06:39 VanessaE that much is probably true, but whether that's what the server does now or not, I dunno
06:39 aldobr the server generates the chunk
06:39 aldobr as soon as someone visits it
06:39 aldobr then it stores the chunk into sqlite
06:39 aldobr no matter if the chunk was modified or not
06:39 kaeza is celeron55 here?
06:39 aldobr so if you are simply walking from point A to B
06:39 aldobr you are generating or reloading chunks from sqlite
06:40 Kacey VanessaE the server shut down
06:40 aldobr even if you dont change a single block
06:40 VanessaE sigh.  your use of the water can crashed it.
06:40 Kacey ooh
06:41 VanessaE restarted.
06:41 Kacey lava can can really dig though lol
06:41 VanessaE don't use the water can until RealBadAngel fixes it.
06:41 VanessaE well water or lava, I dunno which
06:41 Kacey water can works fine
06:42 aldobr the side effect of client map generation is that the task is offloaded from server
06:43 VanessaE ..onto a client that needs all the CPU power it can get?  no way.
06:44 aldobr client needs all cpu power ?
06:44 aldobr when i run local game
06:44 VanessaE Kacey: restarted the server, without water/lava cans enabled.
06:44 aldobr i get 9fps
06:44 aldobr sometimes 1fps
06:45 aldobr when i connect to a remote server i get 60fps
06:45 aldobr so the server is the main power hog here
06:45 Kacey no im going to get off for the night so goodnight and merry christmas
06:45 aldobr and my machine is quite old and crappy
06:45 VanessaE and if you offload mapgen to the client, how does that help the client machine's CPU load?
06:45 JesseH joined #minetest
06:45 aldobr is client cpu really a constraint ?
06:46 VanessaE you're just moving the problem from one side of the network to the other instead of fixing the root issue
06:46 VanessaE yes, it is.
06:46 aldobr i dont believe
06:46 aldobr like i said
06:46 aldobr from experience
06:46 VanessaE this is a 3d game, you need all the CPU you can get to pour into the rendering engine
06:46 aldobr hmmm
06:46 aldobr nope
06:46 aldobr doesnt work that way
06:46 aldobr being 3d means nothin
06:46 aldobr mordern GPUs does almost all work
06:47 aldobr even crappy ones like mine
06:47 VanessaE not here they don't.
06:47 aldobr i have a 32bit GPU
06:47 aldobr yet i get 60FPS when i play on a remote server
06:47 OldCoder NEWS U.S. worlds restarted with updates changes fixes.
06:47 aldobr its a nForce integrated GPU
06:47 aldobr VanessaE
06:47 aldobr if the client generates the map
06:47 VanessaE if that were the case, my HD6870 video card would be able to sustain no less than 200 fps.  As it is, it can barely do 50-60, because a lot of the engine runs on the CPU, not the GPU
06:47 aldobr you divide the load by the ammount of players
06:48 aldobr simple math
06:48 aldobr two players are connected to the server
06:48 aldobr both request a new map chunk
06:48 VanessaE so how does the server know what the land is like?
06:48 aldobr a single CPU (the server's one) will have to generate both chunks
06:48 aldobr using current model
06:48 VanessaE it has to generate the map too.
06:48 aldobr using my proposed model
06:48 aldobr two CPUs generates a map chunk each
06:49 aldobr thats the load/2
06:49 aldobr if there are 8 players
06:49 VanessaE so you propose having the client send its generated data back to the server?
06:49 aldobr load/8
06:49 aldobr or
06:49 aldobr the server not generating data at all
06:49 VanessaE terrible idea.  that has "security hole" written all over it.
06:49 aldobr server only need to know the map on certain cases
06:49 aldobr security hole ? are we guarding the fort knox or playing an opensource game ?
06:50 VanessaE the client must be treated as an untrusted, hostile machine.
06:50 aldobr i can hack the hell out of the source code in the current model
06:50 VanessaE otherwise some idiot with a hacked client comes in and starts generating lava lakes or other shit
06:50 aldobr you cant
06:50 VanessaE and using hacked mapgen to destroy buildings
06:50 aldobr the server generates a chunk
06:50 aldobr but ONLY when needed
06:50 aldobr nope
06:50 VanessaE that's how it works now.
06:50 aldobr deltas still need to be sent to the server
06:51 aldobr and they can be stamped with the player name
06:51 aldobr who done then
06:51 aldobr *them
06:51 aldobr if a server side lua script access minetest.env
06:51 aldobr THEN the server generates the chunk and caches it
06:51 aldobr else
06:52 aldobr it lets this to the player
06:52 Jordach anyways, merry xmas
06:52 aldobr if security is really a problem
06:52 aldobr i dont believe current model is out of flaws
06:53 VanessaE the current model is being rewritten by hmmmm anyway
06:53 aldobr does the server validate ALL player actions ?
06:53 VanessaE yes it does.
06:53 VanessaE at least if anticheat is turned on
06:53 aldobr what happens if i hack my client to allow me to fly ?
06:53 VanessaE otherwise it kinda stops caring where the player is.
06:54 VanessaE I'm sure the server can refuse to let you actually fly, you just wouldn't see it
06:54 VanessaE just as anticheat keeps you from running too fast
06:54 aldobr i believe the client can simply ignore the server
06:54 aldobr and fly anyway :P
06:54 VanessaE the server has the ultimate authority on where the player is on the map.
06:55 aldobr actually
06:55 aldobr the anti-cheat is a source of lag
06:55 VanessaE in a properly designed system, all the client can do is say "I am here x,y,z" and the server either says "ok" or "no you aren't", and disabled player's actions in the latter case.
06:55 aldobr disabling anti-cheat makes the server run much faster
06:55 OldCoder Hence we do it
06:55 VanessaE yup, I have it disabled on mine because getting lag-teleported all over the map sucks.
06:56 aldobr i dont believe a feature that decreases functionality is worth it
06:56 aldobr people will simply disable it and go on
06:56 aldobr better solution would be to create a watch command
06:56 aldobr that allows a mod to see everything that the player is doing
06:57 aldobr the mod can then watch suspected cheaters and ban then accordingly
06:57 aldobr if the player is hacking the mapgen
06:57 aldobr the player changes will not make sense to the moderator correctly generated map
06:58 aldobr so the cheat will be obvious
06:58 hmmmm aldobr, it's like that because map generation was (and currently still is in the master branch) horrendously slow
06:58 VanessaE but how is the server to know what the correctly-generated map looks like?
06:59 aldobr the server dont need
06:59 hmmmm for what it's worth, minecraft stores the entire chunk too.  i know of another minecraft clone that does what you say, however
06:59 aldobr the mod is a client with special privs
06:59 aldobr he attaches itself to the client
06:59 aldobr but his own map generator will be a correct one
07:00 aldobr when the hacker hacks the map generator
07:00 aldobr there will be a difference between the mod's and the hacker maps
07:00 aldobr so whatever the hacker does, will make no sense for the mod machine
07:00 VanessaE terrible idea.
07:00 aldobr "he broke a node at position x,y,z"
07:00 aldobr mod machine : "theres nothing to be broke at x,y,z"
07:01 aldobr "he placed a node at x,y,z"
07:01 aldobr mod machine : "you cant put a node mid-air"
07:01 VanessaE the server HAS to have some kind of semblance of the map in order to decide if a client's action is a legal one.
07:01 aldobr it can do
07:01 aldobr but ONLY IF TRULLY NEEDED
07:01 VanessaE otherwise the hacker will just hack the *entire* client, including client-side mapgen
07:01 aldobr like when a script calls minetest.env:get_node
07:01 Jeija joined #minetest
07:01 aldobr VanessaE you still dont understand
07:01 VanessaE I do onderstand
07:01 aldobr attach the mod to the client
07:01 aldobr well
07:02 VanessaE but you're treating this as if the client can be trusted at all.
07:02 hmmmm none of that is necessary at all, if somebody wants to cheat they can in any imaginable scenario
07:02 VanessaE it cannot be.
07:02 aldobr nope
07:02 VanessaE the client is NOT trustworthy.
07:02 aldobr nope <- to vanessa
07:02 aldobr hmmmm yes i believe that too
07:02 aldobr VanessaE
07:02 aldobr the cheater will have to save his deltas to the server
07:02 aldobr right ?
07:02 aldobr or else he will be connected to the server but living in a parallel universe without effect on other players
07:03 VanessaE basic network security 101:  the client machine cannot be trusted.  The server must be in a position to validate all decisions made by the client.
07:03 aldobr send a copy of the deltas to the mod machine
07:03 aldobr as if the mod where doing then
07:03 aldobr omfg VanessaE i am a network engenieer
07:03 VanessaE so?
07:03 aldobr the moderator receives the hacker deltas
07:03 aldobr and apply then as if it was him doing it
07:03 VanessaE and the moderator runs on the server.
07:03 aldobr but the moderator mapgen is correct
07:03 aldobr nope
07:04 VanessaE then your idea will not work.
07:04 aldobr the moderator can be anywhere on the universe
07:04 aldobr if you dont trust the moderator
07:04 VanessaE you're talking about a three-machine scenarion?
07:04 VanessaE scenario*
07:04 aldobr then nothing on the server will save you from cheaters
07:04 aldobr VanessaE
07:04 aldobr instead of having the server validate anything
07:04 aldobr simply allow the mods to watch over the back of players
07:05 aldobr a moderator is much more trustworth than a machine
07:05 VanessaE *facepalm*
07:05 aldobr you dont want to understand
07:05 aldobr so i cant explain better
07:05 aldobr userstamp the deltas
07:05 VanessaE I understand perfectly.
07:05 aldobr so the moderator can rollback the changes
07:05 aldobr if you do
07:05 aldobr i cant see your point
07:06 VanessaE I used to be a system administrator at what others are saying counts as at least a medium-sized web/internet provider.
07:07 VanessaE my coding skills weren't up to the task, which why I didn't stay long.  But in the short time I worked there I came to understand more details than I care to remember about how networks work, how proper client<->server relationships work, and what not to do
07:07 aldobr VanessaE
07:07 aldobr i KNOW that you cant trust the remote client
07:08 VanessaE and the first thing you never do is put any part of the server's files under the control of the client, in this case the world map.
07:08 aldobr but my model dont have problem with that !
07:08 aldobr let the guy do watever he wants
07:08 aldobr is a journal
07:08 aldobr you can simply roll it back
07:08 VanessaE your model passes client commands through to a "moderator".  which is still a SERVER.
07:08 aldobr nope
07:08 aldobr it doesnt
07:08 aldobr the client sends his changes to the server
07:08 aldobr the server sends to the mod who asked to watch someone
07:09 aldobr but everything goes on
07:09 hmmmm joined #minetest
07:09 aldobr if the mod thinks the player is a cheater
07:09 aldobr he rollsback the player changes and ban it
07:09 aldobr simply
07:09 VanessaE and how does the moderator know?
07:09 aldobr redcrab's got a lot of griefers recently
07:09 aldobr all of then got busted one way or the other
07:10 aldobr because people simply suspect and report to the mod
07:10 VanessaE they all got busted because the system has a rollback recorder.
07:10 VanessaE and that takes place on the minetest server instance.
07:10 aldobr just like the map model i am proposing :)
07:11 aldobr the whole database is a journal
07:11 OldCoder Hmm
07:11 aldobr quite apt to be rolled back
07:11 aldobr wenever the mod wants
07:11 VanessaE but the map data needed by that rollback recorder to be able to undo griefing etc. has to come from *somewhere*
07:11 OldCoder TIP: If you wish to see me and PM me then wait more than 60 seconds please :P
07:11 VanessaE and it CANNOT come from the client, which means it has to come from the server.
07:11 * OldCoder gets PMd and people do not wait
07:11 aldobr VanessaE
07:11 OldCoder If one of you knows Aqua tell him that
07:11 aldobr a journal dont need anything but the journal to be able to roll back
07:12 VanessaE a journal also needs data to operate on.
07:12 aldobr thats the whole point of a journalling file system
07:12 aldobr hm
07:12 aldobr nope
07:12 aldobr it would be something like
07:12 VanessaE that data includes who has permission to operate on a given block
07:12 aldobr player a changed node x,y,z at time timestamp from default:mese to default:air
07:12 VanessaE not just the blocks themselves.
07:13 aldobr player b changed node x,y,z at time timestamp from default:air to default:dirt
07:13 aldobr thats all that is needed
07:13 VanessaE yes, and how does the server know that default:mese was there to begin with?
07:13 aldobr index the database by player, time and x,y,z
07:13 aldobr he dont need
07:13 VanessaE yes it does.
07:13 aldobr why ?
07:14 VanessaE because then the client could change default:stone -> default:air but it's really mese being changed.
07:14 VanessaE or literally any other random block.
07:14 aldobr and ?
07:14 aldobr ok
07:14 aldobr he is cheating
07:14 aldobr he will send that command to the server
07:14 aldobr i want to change x,y,z from mese to air
07:14 VanessaE yes, and how is the server supposed to detect the cheating if it doesn't have a copy of the map?
07:14 aldobr the mod is attached to him
07:14 aldobr he will be proxied that command too
07:15 aldobr the mod machine says : i cant change from mese to air because theres no mese there !
07:15 VanessaE right
07:15 aldobr the mod knows the guy is cheating
07:15 aldobr bans him
07:15 VanessaE stop.
07:15 VanessaE now, how does the moderator know there wasn't any mese there?
07:15 VanessaE where does that information come from?
07:15 aldobr because the mod is using a client that generates the map just like any other client
07:15 VanessaE it comes from a map generator somewhere not under the influence of the client.
07:16 aldobr yes
07:16 aldobr and the cheater will have to hack the mod machine to influence the mod machine
07:16 VanessaE and where is that map generator running?  it ain't the client, and it obviously ain't the moderator, so there's only one place left:  The server.
07:16 aldobr he cant or at least its much harder
07:16 aldobr nope
07:16 aldobr you still dont understand
07:16 VanessaE look
07:16 aldobr its a distributed function
07:16 VanessaE stop.
07:17 VanessaE the "moderator" is still a server.  One way or another, no matter how you slice it, it is a server that is not running on the same hardware instance as the client.
07:17 VanessaE the client sends its changes to the "moderator"....to a server.
07:17 VanessaE you're just moving the problem into a different place
07:17 VanessaE an extra layer of abstraction
07:17 VanessaE this solves nothing in the long run
07:18 aldobr but the moderator is not running on the same machine as the server
07:18 VanessaE yes, I get that
07:18 aldobr so the burden is still split between different machines
07:18 VanessaE so where is it running?>
07:18 aldobr in his own machine ?
07:18 aldobr *on
07:18 VanessaE whose own machine?
07:18 VanessaE the person running the minetest server or the one running the client?
07:18 aldobr lets suppose i am a moderator at redcrab's
07:19 VanessaE or a third piece of hardware somewhere else?
07:19 aldobr that machine will be the machine i am using to talk to you here
07:19 aldobr and the server will be whatever redcrab's use
07:19 aldobr a third piece
07:19 VanessaE wait a minute now you're misusing words.  are we talking about a program that intercepts these actions or are we talking about a user who has some kind of administrator access to the server?
07:20 aldobr <aldobr> better solution would be to create a watch command
07:20 aldobr watch priv
07:20 aldobr watch command
07:20 VanessaE right, so a piece of software.
07:20 VanessaE which runs where?
07:20 VanessaE a third machine somewhere in the aether?
07:20 aldobr makes someone receive a copy of whatever some player is doing
07:21 aldobr the third machine is the machine the mod is using to play the game
07:21 aldobr a client will have to generate a chunk
07:21 VanessaE so you're proposing 24/7 human intervention by way of a watchdog process?
07:21 aldobr nope
07:21 aldobr never needs to be 24/7
07:21 aldobr just needs someone suspecting someone else
07:21 aldobr and reporting
07:21 aldobr this works on redcrab's
07:22 VanessaE we already do that now
07:22 aldobr all griefers get caught eventually
07:22 aldobr yes VanessaE
07:22 aldobr but you raised a security point against the delta model
07:22 aldobr and i explained why that security point is not worth the trouble
07:22 VanessaE I raised a security point against the model of letting the client generate the map and not making the server do the same
07:22 VanessaE which is a bad idea.
07:22 aldobr if the current model is keept on security basis
07:22 aldobr i am showing you how the security would work at a different model
07:23 aldobr most server owners disable anti-cheat anyway
07:23 aldobr so...
07:23 VanessaE your idea will not work.
07:23 aldobr kaeza did you understand my idea ?
07:23 kaeza hm?
07:23 * kaeza is scrolling up
07:23 aldobr kaeza hunf
07:23 aldobr kaeza
07:23 aldobr have the players generate the map
07:23 aldobr the server only generates the map if needed
07:23 aldobr the server stores only deltas
07:24 aldobr and send those to players
07:24 aldobr if theres a cheater on the server
07:24 VanessaE you're asking the server to accept data from the client that cannot be trusted, data that has to be validated somewhere between the player clicking the mouse or executing some client-side script and the server saving those changes to disk.
07:24 aldobr a moderator can attach himself to the cheater and what him build
07:24 VanessaE somewhere, the server HAS to be able to say "no, you can't do that".
07:24 VanessaE and the only way it can do that is to know what the map looks like and who has rights to modify a given area.
07:24 aldobr if he is cheating the map generator, the moderator will see this
07:24 aldobr and ban/rollback him
07:24 aldobr VanessaE its a kind of delayed check
07:25 aldobr because anything can be rolled back
07:25 aldobr hm
07:25 aldobr nope
07:25 VanessaE but we can already do that now without help from some client-side map generator
07:25 aldobr rights can be managed in an abstract model
07:25 aldobr you dont need to know the map
07:25 aldobr to know that player a have no right over x1,y1,z1 to x2,y2,z2
07:26 VanessaE you need to know whether there is something there to modify in the first place.
07:26 aldobr because you simply need to check if the player the player wants to build falls within the boundaries of a protected area
07:26 VanessaE that means having terrain
07:26 aldobr nope
07:26 VanessaE yes.
07:26 aldobr player sends a delta at position 10,20,30
07:26 VanessaE otherwise you validate every attempt to dig at air too
07:26 VanessaE which is wasteful
07:26 aldobr server has a hash table with protected areas
07:26 aldobr 10,20,30 falls within a protected area that the player has no right over
07:26 aldobr serve rejects the delta
07:26 aldobr without having to know whats at 10,20,30
07:27 VanessaE mmh
07:27 aldobr player reports being at 10,20,30
07:27 aldobr 100ms later he reports being at 10000,30000,4000
07:27 aldobr server finds this suspicious and rejects the change
07:27 aldobr without having to know anything about the map
07:28 VanessaE ok now you're starting to make some sense.
07:28 VanessaE you were being incredibly vague before.
07:28 aldobr thats how intrusion detection works, by the way
07:28 VanessaE but you still have one problem to solve:
07:28 VanessaE the map generator is, as hmmmm said, horrendously slow.  Anyone who has ever played in single player on an older machine - the target hardware for this game mind you - will confirm that.
07:29 VanessaE you cannot run the map generator on the client, otherwise you're just moving the load to a machine that already has enough to do rendering the display.
07:29 aldobr V0id
07:29 VanessaE and Minetest doesn't use the GPU to its fullest potential.
07:29 aldobr ops
07:29 aldobr VanessaE from experience
07:29 aldobr i am a crappy machine user
07:29 aldobr athlon xp with nforce 430 gpu
07:29 VanessaE Minetest is as much CPU-bound as it is GPU-bound.
07:30 aldobr its a crappy 32bits shared memory GPU
07:30 aldobr 32bits !
07:30 aldobr when i run single player
07:30 aldobr i cant get more than 9fps
07:30 aldobr when i connect to redcrab's i get 60fps
07:30 aldobr so the server logic is the burden
07:30 aldobr not the rendering
07:30 aldobr if the rendering was heavy
07:30 aldobr my machine would be unable to cope
07:31 VanessaE rendering 16-pixel textures on a 64-bit machine with an HD6870 video card, I should be able to get 200+ fps (not that my monitor can display it).  It can barely sustain 50 or 60.  This is not the mark of a GPU-bound game.
07:31 aldobr because i assure you, its a crappy machine
07:31 VanessaE this is not to say I have a problem with the rendering speed of the game, but the game NEEDS a lot of CPU to get good rendering speeds.
07:31 aldobr another bottleneck is the serial execution of scripts
07:31 VanessaE that much is true.
07:31 VanessaE but that's server-side.
07:31 kaeza aldobr: I think I understand your point, but as VanessaE said, it's prone to security holes
07:32 aldobr there should be a way to parallelize the scripts
07:32 kaeza what I intend instead is this:
07:32 aldobr i dont enough of lua to understand how
07:32 aldobr *know
07:33 aldobr maybe making all objects thread safe
07:33 aldobr with locks
07:33 aldobr so the scripts will sleep while the interpreter cant get a lock to a object
07:33 aldobr but there will be the problem of unbounded nondeterminism
07:33 kaeza the server calcs a hash for the map block. the client calcs a hash of the map block. since both know the seed, both can generate the same map \
07:34 aldobr kaeza
07:34 aldobr why generate the map at the server ?
07:34 marktraceur kaeza: Did someone answer your question?
07:34 aldobr i believe the map should be generated only if a script tries to access it
07:34 kaeza now, if the hash does not match, then the client negotiates with the server about the "changes" (or delta) of the chunk \
07:35 kaeza marktraceur: what question?
07:35 aldobr kaeza the client asks for the deltas, the server returns an empty result
07:35 aldobr whats the difference ?
07:35 kaeza that's good \
07:35 aldobr the server task is just two tasks : syncronize players and performe sanity checks
07:35 aldobr let all the rest be distributed
07:36 aldobr if you cheat
07:36 VanessaE how do you guarantee that all players are generating from the same seed?
07:36 aldobr but dont send your changes to the server
07:36 kaeza but this "delta generation" is only needed at map load (or new chunk)
07:36 aldobr its like living in a parallel universe
07:36 aldobr like psychosis
07:36 aldobr doesnt matter
07:36 kaeza VanessaE: through the use of hashed seed in the comm
07:37 kaeza or a plain one
07:37 aldobr VanessaE syncronizing random seeds is one of the oldest problems of multiplayer game creation
07:37 aldobr almost all games use that
07:38 aldobr the momment the player sends his changes
07:38 aldobr they can be validated by certain heuristic rules
07:38 aldobr and cheats can be caught
07:38 kaeza the client can check at chunk load/gen that the correct seed is being used
07:38 aldobr an aditional layer is the moderator watching the player
07:38 kaeza s/client/server/
07:38 VanessaE you still keep missing the fundamental issue:  the map generator needs CPU to run.  If you put it + render on the client, the server has nothing left to do, and so the load is not evenly distributed.
07:39 aldobr VanessaE it is quite evenly distributed
07:39 aldobr if player A is 100000 miles apart from player B
07:39 aldobr player's A computer will not even hear about what player B is doing
07:39 aldobr so the load is shared
07:39 VanessaE what happens when you have a bunch of players all in the same general area?  that's a lot of wasted effort generating duplicate map data then
07:39 aldobr 8 players generate 8 times the load in a centralized server
07:40 aldobr 8 players generate minimal ammount of load on a distributed model
07:40 aldobr 8 players walk in all 8 directions
07:40 aldobr N, NW, W, SW, S etc
07:40 aldobr the server has to generate chunks 8 times
07:40 aldobr on a distributed model
07:41 aldobr every player holds his own burden
07:41 aldobr VanessaE if they are at the same chunk
07:41 aldobr they generate the chunk 8 times
07:41 aldobr but they have 8 times teh processing power anyway
07:41 aldobr 8/8 = 1
07:42 kaeza hmm
07:42 kaeza this still misses the point of 'trusting the client' IMHO
07:42 kaeza so I believe it's a no-no
07:43 aldobr kaeza
07:43 aldobr add a new command
07:43 aldobr ->  /watch
07:43 aldobr -> /watch someone
07:43 kaeza yes, so?
07:43 Weedy_lappy joined #minetest
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07:43 aldobr every delta sent by someone is sent to the moderator too
07:44 aldobr the moderator machine tries to apply the delta to his own map
07:44 kaeza human intervention should not be needed
07:44 aldobr kaeza if you generate the map on the server
07:44 kaeza s/should/must/
07:44 aldobr distributing map generation will not solve anything
07:45 marktraceur kaeza: I think aldobr asked about deterministic mapgen
07:45 aldobr marktraceur exactly
07:45 kaeza marktraceur: I understand his point
07:45 aldobr when the moderator machine tries to apply the delta
07:45 aldobr it will mismatch
07:45 aldobr so the machine will show a message in the log
07:45 aldobr the player is busted
07:46 aldobr how anti-griefing currently works (usually) ?
07:46 aldobr someone protects his place
07:46 aldobr or
07:46 marktraceur kaeza: As for how possible it is: Possible, but not trivial
07:46 aldobr someone gets griefed and reports to the moderator
07:46 aldobr the moderator types /watch griefer
07:46 aldobr and busts it
07:46 kaeza marktraceur: I guess that's what we are discussing right now
07:46 aldobr remmember that the map can be rolled back
07:47 aldobr because its just a journal registering changes
07:47 marktraceur kaeza: I guess my big question is "what happens when someone changes the map?"
07:47 aldobr marktraceur he sends a delta to the server
07:47 aldobr that validates the delta and stores it into sqlite backend
07:47 aldobr when a player enters the chunk
07:47 aldobr he generates the chunk locally
07:48 hohoho why isn't there a player based rollback? recording all activity of each player then if needed rollback just that one players activity? last I looked at rollback it seemed "general"
07:48 aldobr then asks the server for any deltas/metas for the chunk
07:48 marktraceur aldobr: So basically you're talking about deterministic mapgen plus operational transforms?
07:48 aldobr yep
07:48 VanessaE hohoho: that's how it works.
07:48 kaeza marktraceur: the client does as always in this case, and just sends the action to the server, and the server responds with "OK" or "fck u griefer"
07:48 marktraceur hohoho: There is, you need to enable it
07:48 VanessaE /rollback playername
07:48 hohoho might have to look into it then
07:48 neko259 joined #minetest
07:48 sfan5 hello anyone
07:48 hohoho does the rollback use a lot of resources?
07:48 kaeza hello sfan5
07:48 hohoho hey sfan5
07:49 kaeza merry christmas!
07:49 VanessaE morning sfan5
07:49 sfan5 merry christmas!
07:49 hohoho merry christmas as well
07:49 VanessaE hohoho: not a huge amount, but it does keep a log file on disk that will evntually add up
07:49 hohoho in a few it will be christmas for even those on east coast of usa
07:49 VanessaE ok, time for me to get to bed.
07:49 VanessaE night all.
07:49 kaeza VanessaE: good night
07:49 hohoho VanessaE does it trim the rollback eventually or must it be manually removed?
07:49 hohoho k rest up
07:50 hohoho night
07:50 hohoho or should I say good morning
07:50 hohoho lol
07:50 kaeza VanessaE: and sowwy for fcking up your mind when you are tired ^_^
07:51 hohoho lol if you change fck to fsck id lulz
07:51 kaeza fsck more yes
07:52 kaeza a dirty shell command line ^_^
07:53 aldobr its 4am here in brazil
07:53 aldobr i am still eating :P
07:54 aldobr i dont know other contries christmas traditions
07:54 aldobr but here we do a lot of food
07:54 aldobr to celebrate christmas
07:54 hohoho lol there's a lot of "commands" that sound "dirty"
07:54 hohoho like strip and touch
07:55 hohoho finger
07:55 hohoho lol
07:55 hohoho anywho
07:55 hohoho here for christmas it varies
07:55 hohoho some eat a lot
07:55 hohoho some don't
07:55 hohoho some have a lot of presents and others don't
07:55 hohoho some decorate with beer cans and car parts
07:55 hohoho some use lights and tress
07:55 hohoho lol
07:57 aldobr usually the whole family join together at someone's house
07:57 aldobr every woman comes with a food
07:57 aldobr if there are 50 women, there are 50 different types of food
07:58 hohoho not unless most bring mashed potatoes
07:58 aldobr i believe most occidental countries do that way
07:58 aldobr everybody is sleeping while i am playing minetest
07:59 aldobr its 5am now
07:59 aldobr nerdy
07:59 hohoho guilty pleasure
07:59 hohoho lol
08:02 aldobr zzzzz
08:14 kaeza1 joined #minetest
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08:48 markveidemais hi
08:50 kaeza1 hi markveidemais
08:50 markveidemais hu
08:50 kaeza1 aldobr still here?
08:50 markveidemais hi
08:52 kaeza1 markveidemais: what's up?
08:52 markveidemais i am on Zeg9's server
08:52 markveidemais and Merry Christmas
08:52 kaeza1 wrong! the sky :D
08:52 kaeza1 and merry crhistmas to you too!
08:54 jin_xi joined #minetest
08:54 aldobr hi
08:54 * kaeza1 throws a bucket of {lava|water} to aldobr
08:55 kaeza1 oh hi!
08:55 kaeza1 thought you were aslep
08:55 kaeza1 asleep*
08:55 aldobr nope
08:55 aldobr still eating
08:55 aldobr i was on redcrab's server
08:55 aldobr it doesnt lag
08:55 aldobr now
08:55 aldobr but i
08:55 aldobr hmm
08:56 kaeza1 can you share IP? I wnt to play too :(
08:56 aldobr its like i dont like minetest anymore
08:56 kaeza1 want*
08:56 kaeza1 aldobr: why?
08:56 aldobr 174.129.196.242
08:56 aldobr dunno
08:56 aldobr i believe i played too much in a too short interval
08:56 aldobr port 30401
08:56 aldobr you need to type /setemail your@email.com
08:56 aldobr and wait for confirmation email
08:56 aldobr to get interact privs
08:57 kaeza1 aldobr: take a time off; a few days, a week, whatever you feel like
08:57 kaeza1 you may be stressed
08:59 kaeza1 aldobr: ^
08:59 aldobr kaeza1 i will
08:59 aldobr maybe i will only log on to watch others players build
09:00 kaeza1 aldobr: that may be a good idea. just build, don't code
09:00 kaeza1 you need a break every now and then
09:01 kaeza1 or it will drive you crazy
09:04 aldobr i found another way to check for cheaters
09:04 aldobr via packing
09:05 aldobr lets suppose that the map generator says that node x,y,z is a default:dirt
09:05 aldobr and lets suppose dat player A added a delta saying change x,y,z from default:dirt to default:cobble
09:05 aldobr later a player B added a delta saying change x,y,z from default:cobble to default:air
09:05 aldobr now lets suppose that the map is becoming too big
09:06 aldobr add a new operation called zap
09:06 aldobr like /zap x,y,z chunk
09:06 aldobr when you issue zap
09:06 aldobr the chunk is generated by the server
09:06 aldobr deltas applied
09:06 aldobr if deltas mismatch, flag to the mod the name of the user whose delta was cheat
09:07 aldobr else
09:07 aldobr delete all deltas
09:07 aldobr then compare how the map is from mapgen
09:07 aldobr to how the map is now
09:07 aldobr and generate new deltas that mape now become then
09:07 aldobr make the mod issuing /zap to be the player that gets registered for the changes
09:07 aldobr so
09:07 aldobr now te map becomes smalelr
09:07 aldobr *smaller
09:08 aldobr and cheaters can be caught
09:08 aldobr even years aftewards
09:08 aldobr kaeza1 ?
09:08 kaeza1 hm?
09:08 aldobr :/
09:08 * kaeza1 is reading
09:09 aldobr i am obsessed with minetest map :P
09:09 aldobr i will dream about it as soon as i sleep
09:09 kaeza1 aldobr: sorry if I seem distant now, I'm not in a very clear state of mind
09:10 kaeza1 aldobr: may I PM?
09:10 aldobr yes
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09:29 Zeg9 Hello
09:29 aldobr hi
09:31 kaeza see you later channel, gotta sleep
09:31 hohoho rest up
09:31 hohoho ttyl
09:32 * aldobr cant read anymore
09:32 aldobr my eyes hurts
09:32 aldobr gonna sleep
09:32 aldobr zzzzzzzz
09:35 hohoho well I think its time for me to get some sleep as well
09:35 hohoho ta ta
09:35 hohoho left #minetest
09:35 kaeza good night / morning hohoho
09:35 kaeza left #minetest
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09:48 Jeija|OFF http://mesecons.net/ << new domain
09:48 moltenbot Jeija|OFF's link: mesecons
09:53 simion314 joined #minetest
09:58 Zeg9 Jeija, ads removed ? :D
10:03 Jeija Sure, no ads anymore
10:11 Zeg9 I have to go, bye all
10:27 Zeg9 joined #minetest
10:28 Zeg9 Forums down?
10:29 jin_xi seems so
10:43 cisoun joined #minetest
10:50 john_minetest joined #minetest
10:50 codile joined #minetest
10:50 john_minetest Hello.
10:56 PilzAdam joined #minetest
10:56 PilzAdam Hello everyone!
11:00 Jordach joined #minetest
11:00 Jordach joined #minetest
11:00 Jordach hey guys
11:00 PilzAdam hey Jordach
11:01 Jordach hey PilzAdam -- i see skyrim on your list
11:01 Jordach PilzAdam, i got a nice headset
11:01 Jordach http://www.trittonaudio.com/prod/ax180.asp
11:01 moltenbot Jordach's link:
11:06 markveidemais Zeg9
11:06 markveidemais on the server: p
11:06 markveidemais please help me transfer to MV power
11:06 Jordach markveidemais, you cant
11:06 Jordach the transformer is not finished
11:07 Jordach mv batboxes are for charging tools faster at the moment
11:07 markveidemais this is not minecraft tekkit!
11:07 Jordach markveidemais, ask RealBadAngel himself
11:07 Jordach mv is "just" there
11:07 markveidemais RealBadAngel...
11:16 PilzAdam the new dirt texture is nice
11:21 Jordach PilzAdam, where have you been
11:21 PilzAdam Skyrim ;-)
11:22 Jordach yep, have that game too
11:22 Jordach also - get on xblv later, i has bf3 + gold.
11:23 PilzAdam :D
11:23 Jordach (hopefully the bf3 online code works.)
11:23 PilzAdam time for my first teamkill in BF3 ;-)
11:23 Jordach hehehehe
11:24 Jordach ill ping you when im going to go on iy
11:24 Jordach it*
11:28 markveidemais who is on Zegathon server
11:31 q66 joined #minetest
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11:39 Taoki[laptop] joined #minetest
11:41 SpeedProg joined #minetest
11:57 davidpace joined #minetest
11:57 davidpace Hi all :D
11:59 davidpace Is it just me or are the forums down?
11:59 iqualfragile joined #minetest
12:00 davidpace Hello iqualfragile!
12:00 iqualfragile davidpace: hi
12:00 iqualfragile are you often in #minetest?
12:00 davidpace Its awfully quiet here now, I just joined a minute ago
12:00 iqualfragile ah, ok
12:00 iqualfragile well, you are about 12 hour too early/late
12:00 davidpace Umm no, I am not often on #minetest,
12:01 davidpace What do yoiu mean?
12:01 davidpace *you
12:01 iqualfragile well, use
12:01 iqualfragile !date
12:01 moltenbot Di 25. Dez 13:01:43 CET 2012
12:01 davidpace !date
12:01 moltenbot Di 25. Dez 13:01:53 CET 2012
12:01 davidpace Hmmm
12:01 iqualfragile when it shows some time between 19 and 3 o clock then its not quiet in #minetest
12:02 davidpace Soo its not quiet?
12:02 PilzAdam hello iqualfragile
12:03 PilzAdam the new dirt textures are nice
12:03 iqualfragile hi PilzAdam
12:03 PilzAdam Frohe Weihnachten!
12:03 iqualfragile i dont usualy make/improve texture, but if you like them i have some minor improvements for farming, too
12:04 iqualfragile Frohe Weihnachten, auch wenn ich das nicht wirklich feiere
12:04 iqualfragile davidpace: no, its just morning, nerds are sleeping in the morning, you know?
12:04 davidpace Yes lol
12:12 iqualfragile !ping minetest.net
12:12 moltenbot host minetest.net DOWN
12:12 iqualfragile gml
12:12 PilzAdam iqualfragile, can you provide textures for this https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest_game/tree/farming/mods/farming ?
12:12 moltenbot PilzAdam's link: minetest_game/mods/farming at farming ? PilzAdam/minetest_game ? GitHub
12:13 PilzAdam note that you shouldnt use the textures in there because RBA copied them from MC
12:13 PilzAdam maybe take the textures from my other farming mod as a starting point
12:13 iqualfragile as i said, im usaly a programmer, but the texures from your other farming mods annoyed me, or to be precise: two of them
12:13 john_minetest Frohe Weihnachten.
12:14 PilzAdam Frohes Fest john_minetest
12:15 iqualfragile both cotton-related: the it was hard for me to quickly decide on wich cotton plant was fully grown and wich wasnt, so i removed the white pixels from the not-finished step
12:15 iqualfragile and it was hard for me to read how many seeds i do actualy have as white on white is quite unreadable… so i fixed that, too
12:21 iqualfragile there is one "improvement wich is quite obvious: instead of copying the dirt-textures into the soil-textures and adding stuff you should instead just take the aded stuff and ^ it with the dirt-texture (as seen in my litle improovement for grass_side)
12:21 iqualfragile john_minetest: Frohe weihnachten
12:27 artur99 joined #minetest
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12:29 Exio PilzAdam: did you check https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82?
12:29 moltenbot Exio's link: Tweaked Mese behavior so that the old Mese object is still available. by VanessaE ? Pull Request #82 ? celeron55/minetest_game ? GitHub
12:30 PilzAdam will do
12:33 artur99 this is real\
12:33 artur99 :
12:33 artur99 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVXLOb6TCLM
12:33 moltenbot artur99's link: Lets Play: Minetest! Doors, Bows, And Animals! - YouTube
12:33 artur99 ” Doors, Bows, And Animals!”?
12:34 artur99 does really exist animals?
12:35 artur99 in minetest?
12:35 Exio grr, forum down
12:35 oa_Bob1 joined #minetest
12:36 Exio and well, iirc, with mob framework, or only sheep + rats with simple mobs
12:37 john_minetest artur99: these animals are quite old. it seems to be 0.3.x
12:37 john_minetest No, 0.4
12:38 artur99 and now there isnt animals anymore?
12:39 john_minetest there are. it's a mod.
12:39 john_minetest btw, the version shown there is 0.4-20120122
12:40 john_minetest so from january.
12:40 artur99 this game evoluates so fast?
12:41 artur99 do u saw this game:
12:41 artur99 http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/CastleMiner/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d80258550900
12:42 artur99 ?
12:42 moltenbot artur99's link: CastleMiner - Xbox.com
12:43 sapier mobf will have  new release soon ... I'm going to drop the new 3d model support for this releas .... creating 3d models ain't something I'm used to :-/
12:44 sapier by the way how to tell minetest where to look for textures defined in a 3ds file?
12:46 artur99 where can i find all dorr types
12:46 artur99 ?
12:47 artur99 the forum is down
12:49 john_minetest i just watched a youtube video about the evolution of minecraft. slow. minetest evolves so freaking fast.
12:49 john_minetest 1.6: pistons are introduced :D
12:51 john_minetest sapier: i think that only .x files were reported to work.
12:52 Jordach PilzAdam, get down to the xbox
12:52 sapier ok than now I report .3ds is working too ... without textures :-)
12:53 iqualfragile hi sfan5
12:54 sfan5 hi :D
12:54 iqualfragile sapier: well, try to put the textures all over the place, maybee it will find them somewhere
12:54 iqualfragile !ping minetest.net
12:54 moltenbot host minetest.net DOWN
12:55 sapier :-) I've already thought of that but as minetest expects textures to be somewhere within mod folder I first wanted to know if there's a best practice where to put them
12:56 iqualfragile yeah, but i think the .3ds support is not official…
12:56 sapier I'll release next mobf without 3d models but containing all code necessary to support 3d models ... which is not a big deal at all
12:57 sapier is here someone skilled in 3d modeling? my models look somehow strange :)
12:57 iqualfragile sapier: i would love to run (at least parts of) your mobf but: its just too heavy
12:57 iqualfragile what can i/you do about that?
12:58 sapier you know you can disable nearly everything?
12:59 iqualfragile jup
12:59 sapier mobf is just a framework, if those animals you've enabled don't use the features they're not called this can't do anything bad
12:59 iqualfragile but my server dies under the load and gets unresponsive
12:59 iqualfragile even when i just have 15 animals on screen
12:59 sapier what version did you try?
13:00 iqualfragile ühm…
13:00 iqualfragile about 2 month ago, i guess
13:01 sapier hmm as I haven't released a new version for some time this should be latest .. did you have all animals enabled?
13:04 iqualfragile yup, but as i said: it were about 15 onscreen at the max
13:04 iqualfragile & im a bit unshure if i should try again because that leaves unknown objects everywhere
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13:05 sapier I've added some code to remove disabled animals probably this makes testing a little bit more conveniant
13:06 sapier most time spawning code introduced lots of lag, mobs still using "heavy" spawning algorithms are vombies (at night only) fishes and gulls
13:06 iqualfragile ah, ok, well, then im gona try
13:07 iqualfragile (when you link me to your git-repos, as the forums are down)
13:07 sapier please wait for the new releas that code is really fresh I'll do a little bit of more testing
13:07 iqualfragile no problem
13:08 sapier I always want to avoid to disappoint ppl trying animals ... especialy if they give feedback
13:10 iqualfragile animals are important, realy
13:11 iqualfragile (well, not _all_ of them
13:11 iqualfragile )
13:11 iqualfragile but its important to have some dangers
13:11 iqualfragile like vombies
13:12 sapier yes but vombies will requre fast servers spawning in huge amounts at night creates lots of load ... at least until I've got an idea to do it more smart
13:14 iqualfragile i have a fast server.
13:15 sapier if you wan't to try general performance of mobf I recomend start with all animals disabled enabling one by one starting with sheep cow chicken wolf dm maybe vombie
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13:17 iqualfragile sapier: how long is it gona take untill you release the next version?
13:17 john_minetest i'd like to see mesh based animals in mobf
13:18 iqualfragile john_minetest: we all do
13:18 john_minetest i made a pig. just needs a skin now.
13:18 sapier I'm at final polishing atm all features are implemented I'd like to have in next version. I've to do some testing as lot's of (internal) code was changed
13:18 iqualfragile sapier: https://github.com/sapier/animals_modpack right repos?
13:18 moltenbot iqualfragile's link: sapier/animals_modpack ? GitHub
13:19 sapier mesh support is already in next version I've just no "good" meshes to release
13:19 sapier basicaly yes but this is for stable and bugfix code only not for experimental
13:24 sapier off topic am i the only one having textures leak on minetest leave/joing game without quitting completely?
13:25 iqualfragile sapier: nope, i have those, too
13:25 moltenbot joined #minetest
13:26 sapier ok so I'm not crazy because there was a patch floating around that problem about a year ago
13:26 sapier add "fixing" to my sentence
13:27 iqualfragile yeah, but it was removed again
13:27 john_minetest sapier: i can do a few meshes
13:28 john_minetest sapier: i am quite good at modeling but not at making textures (except player textures).
13:28 sapier I'd be glad to add them my first try to ise blender was horrible :-)
13:28 john_minetest i have got this pig, as i said. idle animation and walking animation.
13:29 john_minetest License WTFPL: http://ompldr.org/vZ3Qxcg
13:31 sapier great :-) I didn't add animation code because i didn't have any animatable model may i use this big to add it?
13:31 moltenbot joined #minetest
13:31 sapier http://ompldr.org/tZ3RvZQ  << my try to create a sheep
13:32 iqualfragile blurp
13:32 Jeija https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/366 << My pull request for a list of servers
13:33 iqualfragile Jeija: post that to #minetest-dev
13:34 moltenbot joined #minetest
13:35 * OldCoder is resting
13:36 moltenbot joined #minetest
13:36 sapier looks promising
13:37 iqualfragile Jeija: maybee it would be better to add a new tab called "global" in wich all servers are listed
13:38 Jeija left #minetest
13:38 iqualfragile and only have your own local servers in that multyplyer-list
13:38 iqualfragile -.-
13:39 iqualfragile sapier: https://github.com/sapier/animals_modpack/blob/master/mobf/.project~
13:40 sapier hmm shouldn't be there thanks I'll remove it
13:41 iqualfragile and there are some problems in the readme
13:41 iqualfragile the creeper was removed/renamed
13:41 iqualfragile and the vampire… yeah
13:41 sapier creeper was removed?
13:41 iqualfragile you might want to use the empty glass from vanessae s vessles
13:42 iqualfragile sapier: i think so, wasnt it?
13:42 sapier not by purpose
13:42 iqualfragile wasnt it renamed?
13:42 sapier no it's in there
13:42 iqualfragile ok
13:42 sapier animal_creeper
13:43 NekoGloop joined #minetest
13:43 NekoGloop Meow
13:43 iqualfragile hi Neko
13:43 iqualfragile -added 3d Boombomb (was Creeper)
13:44 sdzen greetings neko
13:44 sapier you're right
13:44 NekoGloop well at least now it's got a different name.
13:44 sapier I should've renamed the folder too
13:44 NekoGloop I still dont like the idea of the game ripping through my crap.
13:44 iqualfragile sapier: where is the repos of the mobf-settings?
13:45 sapier not in there because by the time of last release mobf-settings depended on other non standard mods
13:45 iqualfragile ok
13:45 sapier I haven't checked if those features got to main minetest_game by now
13:45 iqualfragile (still waiting for the next release
13:46 sapier don't expect it before tonight :-)
13:46 iqualfragile oh… ok
13:46 sapier polishing and testing needs some time too
13:46 NekoGloop and dont expect jordan4ibanez's mod to ever be updated.
13:46 iqualfragile let me help you
13:48 sapier of course this release won't be a really stable release there where to many changes to expect flawless operations. But I'll still need until tonight for a proper releasable version ... sorry
13:49 Jordach merry christmad NekoGloop
13:49 Jordach christmas*
13:49 NekoGloop Yes, isnt the loss of a great modder a wonderful christmas present?
13:50 Jordach nope, hes an ass to some people
13:51 sdzen but not to others
13:51 NekoGloop He only returned the favor of the community.
13:51 john_minetest there shouldn't be all the minecraft mobs in minetest.
13:51 NekoGloop So treat him like shit he treats you like shit. Simple.
13:51 john_minetest hostile mobs should be DM, oerkki and all the others from the 0.3.x versions.
13:52 NekoGloop DM, oerkki, rats.
13:52 john_minetest are rats hostile?
13:52 john_minetest i think it should be possible to tame rats.
13:52 NekoGloop No, i listed the entire list of mobs from 0.3.x version.
13:52 john_minetest okay.
13:53 john_minetest then additional pigs, sheep and cows.
13:53 NekoGloop well pigs are a bit much
13:53 NekoGloop Why have a pig when we have cows?
13:53 NekoGloop Unless you want hogskin for footballs or something.
13:53 john_minetest cows are multitalent and OP
13:54 john_minetest milk and meat at the same time.
13:54 NekoGloop cows are OP?
13:54 john_minetest OverPowered
13:54 NekoGloop Meat if you kill them, milk if they stay alive
13:54 NekoGloop You can only get so much meat from them.
13:54 john_minetest and you should be able to ride cows
13:55 sapier *lol* ride cows .... sounds funny ... and even possible
13:55 NekoGloop Well, at least i've figured out why mojang made cows nonexistant in their latest updates.
13:55 john_minetest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJKdYNubik
13:55 john_minetest riding a cow ^
13:55 NekoGloop And made books out of leather and paper.
13:55 NekoGloop Which is the stupidest thing ever, and mojang should feel bad.
13:56 sapier I think getting leather from deer is much more interesting
13:56 john_minetest when people were too poor to afford a horse they took a cow. that was very common in the mid age.
13:56 jojoa1997 joined #minetest
13:56 john_minetest deers. soonds cool.
13:56 sapier mob already has deer ;)
13:56 sapier mobf
13:56 john_minetest cool. the horn is cool.
13:56 iqualfragile an ugly deer
13:56 NekoGloop I think getting leather from just every animal it makes sense with is a good idea.
13:56 jojoa1997 can someone give me the github link to jordan4ipbanez's 3d animated npc
13:56 sapier :-) I'm a coder not a designer
13:56 john_minetest getting leather from a rat... xD
13:57 iqualfragile github.com/jordan4ibanez ?
13:57 NekoGloop Cows, deer, pigs...
13:57 john_minetest sheep or cotton for wool?
13:57 jojoa1997 hostile small people
13:57 sapier you meant "small piece of leather" ? @john_minetest
13:57 PilzAdam <sapier> :-) I'm a coder not a designer <- thats one big problem of Minetest, we dont have designers
13:57 iqualfragile john_minetest: both
13:57 sapier true @pilzadam
13:57 iqualfragile PilzAdam: you need to differ: graphical artists or designes?
13:58 sapier I've posted a link to a try of mine to create a sheep 3d model ... I think the result is self speaking
13:58 iqualfragile and we do have enought graphical artists, take a look at the relam of 3d-mobs
13:58 john_minetest notch tried to make a pig and a creeper came out.
13:58 john_minetest ;)
13:58 * NekoGloop shows how bad notch is at game design right there.
13:59 NekoGloop What the actual fuck. I did not put a /me there.
14:00 iqualfragile NekoGloop: in the irc-protocol you need to put a special char at the end of the line, maybee you did that by accident?
14:00 iqualfragile -.-
14:04 shadowjay1 joined #minetest
14:05 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:06 thexyz the guy who made new design for website can be called designer, can't he?
14:06 john_minetest who made it btw?
14:07 thexyz prowseed, iirc
14:07 thexyz the one which was not accepted by c55
14:07 john_minetest cool new design.
14:12 thexyz iqualfragile: so, 99% bot uptime, yeah?
14:12 iqualfragile i have shut it down like 10 minutes ago because i want to add a feature
14:14 thexyz what feature?
14:14 iqualfragile i wan to allow both syntaxes: !up minetest.org 30000 and minetest.org:3000
14:14 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:15 thexyz fine
14:15 thexyz and how about ipv6?
14:15 iqualfragile what exactly?
14:16 thexyz will it work (when we'll have it supported)
14:17 iqualfragile you mean for checking if hosts are up?
14:17 thexyz yep
14:17 iqualfragile jup
14:18 iqualfragile (well, why wouldnt it work? it uses standard-unix-tools)
14:20 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:23 thexyz ok, fine, let's assume it will work
14:24 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:26 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:28 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:30 thexyz minetest.net is fucking down again
14:33 NakedFury joined #minetest
14:39 thexyz http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04
14:40 thexyz (cast marktraceur)
14:42 PilzAdam *** longjmp causes uninitialized stack frame ***: /home/adam/Minetest/minetest/bin/minetest terminated
14:42 PilzAdam anyone knows what that means?
14:43 thexyz seems to be curl-related
14:43 thexyz (as google thinks)
14:43 thexyz http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9191668/error-longjmp-causes-uninitialized-stack-frame
14:43 PilzAdam you need a backtrace?
14:43 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:43 sapier seems assembler is still alive ;-)
14:44 thexyz how can it be non-alive?
14:44 thexyz PilzAdam: what MT version causes this?
14:44 PilzAdam https://gist.github.com/999fd7c9df721d57ce4a
14:45 PilzAdam Jeija's serverlist
14:45 PilzAdam but it was ingame
14:46 PilzAdam so I guess its not his fault
14:46 thexyz well, that's definetly a curl issue
14:46 thexyz >/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcurl-gnutls.so.4(+0x9b25)[0x7f2c24509b25]
14:46 iqualfragile my server has curl-support enabled
14:46 PilzAdam I played several minutes on iqualfragile's server
14:47 thexyz hm.. the solution may be curl_easy_setopt(curl, CURLOPT_NOSIGNAL, 1)
14:48 iqualfragile btw: i think the boat looks to round
14:49 PilzAdam yea, I dont really like the boat model
14:51 markveidemanis joined #minetest
14:51 markveidemanis i have to ask a technic expert, so can they plz PM me
14:51 iqualfragile RealBadAngel: markveidemanis has a question
14:52 markveidemanis ok fair enough
14:52 markveidemanis RealBadAngel: ccould you go on the Zegathon server to help me with wiring and machines
14:54 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:55 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:55 Doc22 joined #minetest
14:56 markveidemanis llp
14:56 Doc22 hey Oldcoder
14:56 markveidemanis RBA
14:56 Doc22 i got my new computer
14:56 Doc22 :)
14:56 Doc22 :)
14:56 Doc22 im so happy
14:56 Doc22 it runs like lightning
14:56 PilzAdam specs?
14:56 Doc22 and I can play games that i couldnt before
14:56 Doc22 ok
14:56 Doc22 asus sabertooth x79 motherboard
14:57 markveidemanis Ghz?
14:57 Doc22 intel 1-7 3820 processor 3.2 ghz
14:57 Doc22 i-7*
14:57 markveidemanis holy shi...
14:57 markveidemanis haha i got 1.6
14:57 Doc22 8gb of 1866mhz ram
14:57 PilzAdam what generation is the core?
14:57 Doc22 it has 4 cores
14:57 Doc22 idk what gen
14:58 thexyz + multithreading?
14:58 markveidemanis thats faster than apple imac, i think
14:58 Doc22 ikr
14:58 Doc22 i got an awesome cooler
14:58 thexyz oops, hyper-threading
14:58 moltenbot joined #minetest
14:58 Doc22 and the processor usage never goes above 1-%
14:58 Doc22 10%*
14:58 Doc22 mostly around 1% usage
14:58 Doc22 even with multitasking
14:58 Doc22 i custom built this
14:59 Doc22 ordered everything from amazon
14:59 markveidemanis can you run my minetest server with ur fast pc to see how it performs?
14:59 PilzAdam I have 8 cores @ 2.93 GHz
14:59 Doc22 sure
14:59 Doc22 awesome
14:59 iqualfragile PilzAdam: me too
14:59 Doc22 the slot is lga201
14:59 Doc22 lga2011*
14:59 PilzAdam i7 first generation
14:59 iqualfragile well, im not shure about the 2.93 ghz
15:00 Doc22 so when the new ivy bridge processors come out
15:00 Doc22 i can use them
15:00 markveidemanis meh
15:00 Doc22 i want to see how the 3-d transistors work
15:00 iqualfragile Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5405  @ 2.00GHz
15:01 Doc22 @markveidemanis
15:01 PilzAdam Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 870 @ 2.93 GHz
15:01 Doc22 i will run your server for test
15:01 Doc22 but not permanently
15:01 moltenbot joined #minetest
15:02 Doc22 also I chose to use a 120gb ssd
15:02 Doc22 they are much faster
15:03 Doc22 boots up in like 10 seconds
15:03 thexyz Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz (server)
15:03 PilzAdam Doc22, wich OS?
15:03 Doc22 win 7
15:03 Doc22 im kinda mixed between gaming
15:03 Doc22 and programming
15:03 PilzAdam dual boot
15:03 thexyz linux can boot in ~3 seconds from ssd, iirc
15:03 Doc22 so i use windows
15:04 Doc22 i only use it because of the games that are for windows
15:04 thexyz http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&amp;px=MTEwMjc
15:04 moltenbot thexyz's link: [Phoronix] A Two-Second Boot Time With systemd
15:04 Doc22 otherwise i would use linux
15:04 Doc22 also im used to windows.
15:04 Doc22 its "what  i grew up on"
15:04 Doc22 i learned it when i was little
15:04 Doc22 i like windows
15:05 iqualfragile thexyz: linux can boot in 5 sec from hdd
15:06 NakedFury merry christmas minetest
15:06 thexyz iqualfragile: with X and some DE?
15:06 iqualfragile jup
15:06 iqualfragile was on phoronix some while ago
15:06 Doc22 i tried ubuntu when i was trying to learn about servers
15:06 PilzAdam iqualfragile, and with BIOS?
15:06 Doc22 i had sooo much trouble installing it
15:07 PilzAdam Doc22, wubi?
15:07 iqualfragile PilzAdam: thats a different story
15:07 Doc22 no writing iso to a cd
15:07 iqualfragile cd…
15:07 iqualfragile use usb-sticks
15:07 Doc22 i tried doing that too
15:07 iqualfragile i usualy get my system installed in less then 7 minutes using an usb-stick
15:08 thexyz NakedFury: merry grav-mass
15:10 Doc22 hmm
15:10 Doc22 i had a lot of trouble
15:10 iqualfragile http://www.linuxliveusb.com/
15:11 Doc22 i downloaded it several times (many hours...), then tried installing it
15:11 Doc22 it was mainly during boot up
15:11 Doc22 it wont load grub
15:11 Doc22 unless i change some settings
15:11 Doc22 even then it wont boot linux
15:12 Doc22 its probably because that was an old computer with out of date bios
15:12 Doc22 etc
15:29 Doc22 joined #minetest
15:32 Doc22 ugh
15:33 Zeg9 joined #minetest
15:33 Doc22 stupid "restart now for windows updates?" button
15:33 Doc22 accidentally pressed restart now
15:33 Zeg9 You use windows ?
15:33 Doc22 yes
15:33 Doc22 just for the gamez
15:33 Zeg9 Hi
15:33 Zeg9 btw
15:33 Doc22 im mixed between programmer and gamer
15:33 mauvebic joined #minetest
15:33 SmugLeaf joined #minetest
15:33 SmugLeaf joined #minetest
15:33 Doc22 i like windows because it is also what I am used to
15:34 Doc22 i dont have to always ask (why cant i do that)
15:34 Doc22 anyway
15:34 Zeg9 I hope it isn't 8
15:34 Doc22 i need to learn more about security
15:34 Doc22 nope
15:34 Doc22 i stick with 7
15:34 Doc22 i hear that its unstable
15:34 Doc22 8
15:35 Doc22 and that they are making it like mac
15:35 Doc22 more or less
15:35 Zeg9 They are making it even more unusable
15:35 Doc22 7 is as far as i will go
15:35 Doc22 for now
15:35 Doc22 i grew up on xp
15:35 Doc22 vista sucked
15:35 Doc22 but 7 is good
15:36 Doc22 xp was also good
15:36 Doc22 is minetest.net down?
15:37 Doc22 YUS WOT action nauw
15:37 Doc22 if anyone has world of tanks
15:37 Doc22 im doc44
15:37 Doc22 gtg
15:47 neko259 joined #minetest
15:56 iqualfragile !ping minetest.net
15:56 moltenbot host minetest.net DOWN
15:57 iqualfragile celeron55: whats up?
15:57 mauvebic damn forums are down
15:57 mauvebic oh well, enjoy http://www.zimg.eu/i/784909190
15:58 celeron55 "what's up?" "well, at least not minetest.net"
15:58 iqualfragile :D
15:58 iqualfragile whats the problem about minetes.net
15:58 iqualfragile s/minetes.net/minetest.net
15:59 iqualfragile celeron55: there is a bug about occlusion: sometimes minetest does not draw chunks of blocks i would be able to see
16:02 celeron55 it's very minor
16:02 celeron55 and not a bug
16:02 celeron55 it's because of speed
16:03 celeron55 if it perfectly tested occlusions, it could just as well just draw everything instead of culling them
16:03 artru99 joined #minetest
16:03 iqualfragile no, its not
16:04 shadowjay1 joined #minetest
16:04 artru99 is this  valable anymore:
16:04 artru99 http://1.1.1.5/bmi/www.mesecons.net/crafts/silicon.png
16:04 artru99 ?
16:06 harrison joined #minetest
16:08 artru99 ???????
16:09 iqualfragile ühm…
16:09 iqualfragile 1.1.1.5?
16:10 artru99 from mesecon.tk
16:10 artru99 *mesecons.tk
16:10 artru99 the silicon
16:10 iqualfragile !ping mesecons.net
16:10 moltenbot 64 bytes from 78.46.181.14: icmp_req=1 ttl=57 time=8.14 ms
16:10 iqualfragile !ping mesecons.tk
16:10 moltenbot host mesecons.tk DOWN
16:10 iqualfragile see, no 1.1.1.5
16:11 * Jordach lazes around
16:14 artru99 nesecons.tk is up
16:14 artru99 i can see it
16:14 Jordach nese? is that some form of negative mese
16:14 mauvebic hmm https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues/347 this happens to me on linux too while running chromium
16:14 moltenbot mauvebic's link: GPU Memory Fragments. ? Issue #347 ? celeron55/minetest ? GitHub
16:15 mauvebic and only with the nvidia tower
16:16 Jordach yeah, nvidia chips seem affected by this
16:16 mauvebic though i think its because they recently fixed the hardware acceleration for flash player (which didn't previously work)
16:17 mauvebic if anyone remembers those purple-tinted youtube vids on nvidia gpus :p
16:17 iqualfragile nah, its not purple-tinted
16:17 iqualfragile the colours blue and red are exchanged
16:18 mauvebic welll now hardware accel works and my inventory tiles are frequently replaced by snaps of my browser windows :P could be coincidence tho
16:20 shadowjay1 joined #minetest
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16:20 artur99 hi
16:20 iqualfragile hi artur99
16:20 artur99 i cant craft this:
16:21 artur99 http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7/25148309.png
16:21 artur99 why?
16:21 artur99 same link:
16:21 artur99 http://www.mesecons.net/items/solarpanel.php
16:21 moltenbot artur99's link: mesecons
16:23 artur99 and i cant craft this too:
16:23 artur99 http://www.mesecons.net/items/silicon.php
16:23 moltenbot artur99's link: mesecons
16:25 analphabet joined #minetest
16:27 codile joined #minetest
16:28 Jordach mauvebic, is the card series geforce/
16:28 analphabet left #minetest
16:29 mauvebic geforce 210 i think?
16:29 mauvebic i still have the box lemme go check
16:29 Jordach mauvebic, it might just be on geforce cards
16:29 mauvebic ugh my wife hid it somewhere lol
16:29 mauvebic but yeah its a geforce
16:29 mauvebic bought a year ago now
16:30 Jordach so it might just be geforce cards
16:31 mauvebic yep GeForce 210
16:31 mauvebic driver version 304.64
16:32 Jordach so its a nvidia card being the issue
16:32 roboman2444 joined #minetest
16:32 Jordach of the series geforce
16:33 mauvebic + it only happens when chromium is running?
16:33 Jordach celeron55, my issue on c55/minetest #347 seems to be related to the running of a hardware accelerated browser and the running of a minetest binary on nvidia geforce series cards
16:34 oa_Bob1 joined #minetest
16:35 mauvebic i wonder what happens if i disable hard.accel. on the flash player
16:35 Kacey joined #minetest
16:36 Kacey hello and merry christmas
16:36 Kacey O:-)
16:39 Zeg9 Jordach, nvidia geforce series -> nvidia graphic card
16:39 Zeg9 Jordach, nvidia geforce series -> nvidia graphic cards*
16:39 Jordach Zeg9, it only happens on this series
16:40 mauvebic feel free to add my details to the bugreport, i dont have/want a github acct. lol
16:40 Zeg9 Jordach, I mean that all nvidia cards are called geforce
16:42 Kacey i have installed xubunu on my laptop
16:43 sapier1 joined #minetest
16:43 Kacey hallo
16:44 Zeg9 Hi
16:44 Kacey i gave myself the gift of xubuntu
16:45 Zeg9 Free and great gift
16:45 Kacey yes it is
16:45 Kacey installing WINE and VanessaE are you on?
16:46 sebastiansam55 joined #minetest
16:46 VanessaE I *just* walked in
16:46 Kacey lol
16:47 PilzAdam hi VanessaE
16:47 VanessaE your timing is impeccable
16:47 VanessaE PilzAdam: ahh there you are.  I have work for you ;)
16:47 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82
16:47 VanessaE also good morning all.
16:48 Kacey merry christmas
16:48 VanessaE same to you Kacey
16:48 Kacey i gave myself the gift of xubuntu
16:50 thexyz VanessaE: why are there 3 closed and 1 open pull request for that thing?
16:50 VanessaE thexyz: because I kept changing my mind and also screwing up :-)
16:51 thexyz why didnt't you just change existing pull request?
16:51 VanessaE and because certain individuals don't like multiple commits per request.
16:51 VanessaE I don't know how to do that.  Still learning git.
16:51 VanessaE :)
16:51 thexyz git rebase
16:51 thexyz git push --force
16:51 thexyz that's all you need
16:52 VanessaE I'll remember that for the future
16:52 artur99 i cant craft this http://www.mesecons.net/items/silicon.php
16:52 moltenbot artur99's link: mesecons
16:52 artur99 why?
16:54 VanessaE artur99: works for me?
16:54 VanessaE (just checked with a recent git pull of mesecons)
16:55 VanessaE of course, I have homedecor installed too, which I know will produce silicon if mesecons won't.
16:59 artur99 aha
16:59 artur99 and there is planks and steel ingout?
16:59 VanessaE sand + steel
16:59 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, where do I get your latest tree code in c++?
17:00 VanessaE PilzAdam: that pull request should stop all the bitching from the luddites :-)
17:01 ttk2 joined #minetest
17:02 PilzAdam VanessaE, ask me in a few days or so
17:02 VanessaE this should be RBA's trees + mapgen tweaks:   http://realbadangel.pl/mapgen.zip
17:03 VanessaE (it's the whole of minetest, but it isn't current with 0.4.4 git, so be sure you also run the client that gets built with it when testing)
17:03 VanessaE (It doesn't recognize the noclip priv)
17:04 Kacey im working on my new mod so ping if you need me
17:09 Kacey ok back
17:12 markveidemanis joined #minetest
17:17 * Kacey lagetest
17:17 Kacey lagtest*
17:20 marktraceur Lugetest!
17:21 Kacey lol
17:22 Kacey need to finish the crafting recipes and textures and then i can upload it
17:23 Kacey on the time mod*
17:26 sapier1 @iqualfragile I've just updated github code with new mobf version for testing purposes
17:26 iqualfragile k thx
17:30 PilzAdam cutting down one of RealBadAngel's L-System trees: 2 in-game days (without night), nearly 1 steel axe, 230 tree nodes, 397 leave blocks, 234 saplings
17:30 john_minetest lol
17:30 PilzAdam and a lot of fun
17:30 john_minetest so 40 minutes of work :D
17:31 neko259 joined #minetest
17:31 iqualfragile yeah, i think those are a bit too big…
17:31 iqualfragile sapier1: whats the chnges?
17:32 PilzAdam omg, FIRE!!!
17:32 sapier1 1.9.0
17:33 sapier1 lots of changes :-)
17:33 PilzAdam http://www.zimg.eu/i/2231242482
17:33 PilzAdam with fire: 1 fire, 2 saplings
17:33 PilzAdam and only 1 minute
17:34 sapier1 two major things changed : 1) state support for mobs 2) complete rewrite of callback handling (on_step as well as on_punch)
17:34 sapier1 are that growing_trees @pilzadam?
17:35 PilzAdam no, RBA's L-System trees
17:35 mauvebic the boats mod, does the screen shake/vibrate like when i drive ufos?
17:35 sapier1 hmm look great
17:36 * VanessaE is worn out now
17:37 JesseH Any mods that change gameplay a lot?
17:38 PilzAdam creative ;-)
17:38 mauvebic no_mapgen
17:38 thexyz JesseH: realtest
17:38 PilzAdam maybe farming
17:39 PilzAdam thexyz, thats not a mod
17:39 thexyz (it's not a mod but modpack though)
17:39 Kacey mesecons
17:40 thexyz ughh, not modpack, but a game
17:40 marktraceur Anyone know how to disable the "type /join" message that happens with the IRC mod if nobody was on for some time? The IRC bot is always in my channel, but the server sometimes annoys people with the message.
17:41 JesseH thexyz, neat
17:42 VanessaE JesseH: my custom game rather changes game play a bit
17:42 VanessaE mostly because of the presence of the Technic and Unified Inventory mods.
17:42 markveidemanis my framerate is terrible
17:42 VanessaE (e.g. creative mode
17:42 VanessaE )
17:42 Kacey where can i download the irc mod?
17:42 markveidemanis from the internet
17:43 markveidemanis or an interweb
17:44 marktraceur Kacey: http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3905
17:44 marktraceur Kacey: Suggest that you not use this channel to test it :)
17:44 Kacey aaw ok
17:46 Jakssoul joined #minetest
17:46 Jakssoul Hello everyone.
17:46 Kacey hello
17:46 Kacey brb
17:46 Kacey left #minetest
17:46 Jakssoul How's it going?
17:47 Jakssoul Oh, have fun.
17:47 markveidemanis how to improve FPS?
17:47 Jakssoul Turn of Shaders. Made it SOOO much better for me.
17:47 markveidemanis shaders are off
17:48 Jakssoul How much RAM do you have?
17:48 Jakssoul I'm using a little crappy netbook with 512MB RAM and get 20+ FPS generally.
17:48 Jakssoul I think that should be enough for just about anyone.
17:51 Kacey joined #minetest
17:51 Kacey back
17:51 Kacey having a horrible internet
17:53 Kacey cdan anyone give me the download link?
17:53 Kacey can*
17:55 Kacey joined #minetest
17:56 Kacey hello?
17:57 JesseH Kacey, The guy who wrote it isn't on right now.
17:57 JesseH Let me see if I can find the link.
17:57 Kacey kaeza wrote it didnt he?
17:58 JesseH Correct.
17:59 JesseH Kacey, https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-irc
17:59 moltenbot JesseH's link: kaeza/minetest-irc ? GitHub
17:59 JesseH Clone that, or download as a zip or whatever.
18:02 Kacey Plese change the "cp -R irc" to fit your install of minetest.
18:02 Kacey what does this mean?
18:03 JesseH I am new to minetest, and it seems like a minetest error. Therefore I cannot help you.
18:03 Kacey OldCoder? Vanesssa
18:04 Kacey either of you know?
18:05 MilanFIN joined #minetest
18:07 Kacey left #minetest
18:09 VanessaE hm, what?
18:09 VanessaE *looks*
18:09 RealBadAngel hi all
18:09 VanessaE hrm, well he's gone for now I guess
18:09 VanessaE hey RBA.
18:10 Jordach RealBadAngel, wassup
18:10 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, want latest trees?
18:10 PilzAdam sure
18:10 PilzAdam or are the one VanessaE gave me the latest?
18:10 RealBadAngel Jordach: still in the woods, takin care of trees ;)
18:10 Jordach burning them down
18:10 RealBadAngel the latest one surely im the only one to have it :)
18:11 sokomine merry christmas to all i havn't seen yet :-)
18:11 codile joined #minetest
18:11 VanessaE haha
18:11 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, c++ files: realbadangel.pl/mapgen.zip
18:12 sokomine ah. are the advanced trees coming to the game?
18:12 RealBadAngel you have to have in mods lua version too (for textures)
18:12 RealBadAngel and fix one line in default mapgen.lua
18:13 RealBadAngel line #10 to:
18:13 RealBadAngel minetest.register_alias("mapgen_leaves", "treegen:birch_leaves")
18:14 RealBadAngel btw im movin now all tree related stuff to separate c and h files
18:15 sapier1 can someone tell me what code is expected to be in lua and what is allowed in c++? I thought celeron didn't want many game specific code parts in c++?
18:15 RealBadAngel sapier1, speed factor
18:15 RealBadAngel you can compare with trees speed of the very same code
18:16 RealBadAngel some things just cannot be done in LUA
18:16 sapier1 not really? most of the speed problems mobf has could be fixed in c++ easyly but celeron told me he didn't want mobs in c++
18:16 sokomine if so many experienced players are online...maybe you do have any ideas how i can get right-click on npc/mob to display a formspec menu? i know that it does require changes in the code. i could insert suitable data structures analog to the ones players and nodes use. but i'm not sure if and how updates to the data of lua objects like npc will be transmitted from server to client?
18:16 sokomine oh :-) and sapier is on as well. fine :-)
18:17 * sokomine hopes for 3d-animals :-)
18:17 Kacey joined #minetest
18:17 RealBadAngel sapier1 they should be done in c++
18:17 Kacey i am building CMake
18:17 RealBadAngel as well as mesecons core and some other stuff
18:17 VanessaE PilzAdam: I'm afraid "a few days" just won't do - people are bitching too loudly about the change, this needs put through right away.
18:18 sapier1 you're kidding I've been writing in lua only because celeron said mobs not in c++ and now you tell me they'd be added in c++? is this only your oppinion or did celeron change minds?
18:19 VanessaE Lua is a great idea for modding but it's being over/misused - some stuff just cannot be adequately done without some help from C++
18:20 Zeg9 joined #minetest
18:20 JesseH I imagine, nothing Lua wise can be done without the correct c++ bindings, yes/
18:21 sokomine that's right and one of the reasons there was no way to move the player around before the models where introduced (apart from beaming the player around)
18:22 JesseH Also, what is happeneing that you have to worry about Lua's speed?
18:22 sokomine pilzadam is very experienced at finding ways to get around some limitations of the lua interface. but there are still limits what can be done
18:22 sapier1 I've already added moving player support to minetest a year ago, noone was interested
18:23 sokomine maybe that was at a time celeron had less time/intrest in the game? in recent weeks, quite a lot has improved
18:24 sapier1 I'm glad things get better
18:25 sokomine the new models are great. the 3d-player is much better to look at than that scary 2d-shape that's so flat from the side. it still has some bugs but i think it's worth it
18:25 RealBadAngel sapier1, thats my opinion
18:25 JesseH I am still curious of the problem with speed.
18:26 RealBadAngel but if mobs are supposed to EVER work in mt, it has to be done in c++
18:26 RealBadAngel they can be controlled from lua, but all the logic shall be in the engine
18:26 JesseH The Lua bindings can be made, so us higher level folks can implement things as well.
18:26 sapier1 did you ever try mobf? mobs do work in lua
18:27 sapier1 there's still one major bug in c++ NOT related to mobs making mobs nearly unusable
18:27 VanessaE sapier1: well a lot of people say MOBF lags servers, so...
18:27 VanessaE what's that bug?
18:27 RealBadAngel all the stuff that relies on heavy calculation will suffer
18:28 sapier1 as soon as there's an accelerated entity minetest may enter a runaway performance glitch
18:28 VanessaE huh.
18:28 RealBadAngel entities shall be moved to client side
18:28 sapier1 there's next to no heavy calculation for basic mob features (at least if you do it right)
18:28 VanessaE wonder if that's what's causing my server issues - there's a lot of entities used there in the form of carts, boats, UFOs
18:29 sokomine hm :-) they do work fine. i had only few problems with the last version of mobf. crashes where very rare (most of the time the client crashes for other reasons); and when the mobs changed their spawning it helped a lot. one remaining problem is that the mobs once started disappearing for no apparent reason
18:29 RealBadAngel without it nothin related to animation wont run good
18:29 sapier1 they are! if you use acceleration movement is smooth and done by client
18:29 JesseH mob logic should be able to be done with Lua and work fine.
18:29 sapier1 but as told before if using acceleratin minetest has a bad bug
18:29 VanessaE sapier1: can you elaborate further?
18:30 RealBadAngel which is?
18:30 VanessaE sapier1: can you explain the conditions under which this bug is produced?  Test cases?  Methodology?
18:30 VanessaE I really wanna know.
18:30 sapier1 of course, theres a bugentry too by the way
18:30 Crisco joined #minetest
18:31 sapier1 this bug occurs as soon as an entity is accelerated with a slightly larger value ... 10 for example
18:31 sapier1 in minetests movement calculation loop minetest does collision detection
18:32 sapier1 if anything is accelerated minetest checks if there is any colliding object between old position and new position
18:32 sapier1 if you have accelerated objects this may be lots of blocks to check -> loop time increases --> even more blocks need to be checked next time
18:33 mauvebic so, velocity
18:33 mauvebic better?
18:33 iqualfragile can somebody summarize the last bits of discussion?
18:33 mauvebic or accel < 10 ?
18:33 VanessaE iqualfragile: entities are busted.
18:33 VanessaE :)
18:33 iqualfragile busted? in how far busted?
18:33 sokomine how about jumping? that was the only way to accelerate players for some time (the trampolines)
18:33 mauvebic theyre not busted
18:33 Kacey can anyone help me compile minetest-irc?
18:34 sapier1 it's no matter if it's 10 or 5 or 100 you need only one performance lag to enter this runaway state
18:34 mauvebic a year ago five entities would lag my server, now, takes 20 :P
18:34 simion314 joined #minetest
18:34 VanessaE Kacey: better to wait till later tonight, maybe in 6-7 hours kaeza should be here then
18:34 JesseH I am at this point, wondering how entities are handled.
18:34 JesseH 20, lags a server???
18:34 iqualfragile jup
18:34 sapier1 20 moving entities
18:34 JesseH Still.
18:35 * Kacey is going to go bash his head against a wall
18:35 sapier1 the faster they move the worse the lag
18:35 sokomine hm, i had about 100 mobs in one fenced-off area and that was causing hardly any performace drops at all. they didn't constantly drop, drown and die thanks to the fence
18:35 VanessaE sapier1: does "moving" also include dropped entities that just sit there spinning?
18:35 JesseH That must be some pretty calculation heavy math going on.
18:35 VanessaE or does it have to be X/Y/Z movement?
18:35 JesseH movement** not math
18:35 RealBadAngel anybody seen a vid with 1k moving entities?
18:35 iqualfragile and by laggin he mean healy lagging, it means that the server wont even send new chunks to players
18:35 sapier1 if those dropped entities do have acceleration set might be too
18:36 sapier1 but obviously collision detection will finish soon on objects at ground
18:36 JesseH So it's, network heavy stuff.
18:36 iqualfragile na, the server is just singlethreaded
18:36 RealBadAngel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Fv_HtzPLg
18:36 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: Stress test continues - YouTube
18:37 iqualfragile and if a mod uses all the calculation-captabilities to search for a way to move or whatever there is nothing left for the other tasks
18:37 JesseH iqualfragile, figured
18:37 JesseH It has to be how its all handles, not the code that works the logic itself.
18:37 JesseH engine level stuff
18:37 NakedFury wow RBA lots of moving stuff
18:37 NakedFury and in both directions
18:37 * Kacey is wanting to bind a port to a false adress and see what happens
18:37 sapier1 there's a simple solution for this problem ... Just add a top speed limit
18:38 iqualfragile NakedFury: that vid is kindof old, you know…
18:38 JesseH I am just wondering why I lag so bad on every server I get on.
18:38 JesseH Not usual
18:38 NakedFury how did you set the direction? and yes there should be a top speed dropping limit
18:38 RealBadAngel check the technic code
18:38 Kacey press alt+f4 JesseH
18:38 RealBadAngel its all there
18:38 iqualfragile RealBadAngel: the trees look great, maybee a bit more variety and the are perfect
18:39 NakedFury I mean in the game
18:39 iqualfragile (height for example)
18:39 JesseH Kacey, what.
18:39 NakedFury I actually like this new trees, bit more realistic when comparing the height of the character
18:39 Kacey to fix the lag press alt+f4
18:39 RealBadAngel NakedFury, check injector.lua
18:39 RealBadAngel all the entities code is there
18:40 JesseH Kacey, go into terminal and type "rm *".
18:40 Kacey rba, can things go from a pneumatic tube into a gold chest?
18:40 NakedFury RealBadNAngel I mean inside the game how do I tell the direction they go, so maybe metals go one way and the other another
18:40 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I still say you need to thin out the leaves - change your axioms/rules to give the trees more internal definition
18:40 VanessaE RealBadAngel: for the sake of impressing c55 if nothing else ;)
18:41 RealBadAngel i need to add more commands for the turtle to allow such things
18:41 NakedFury leafs should always drop even when you "mine" them
18:41 RealBadAngel and even then some1 has to write such tree in L-systems
18:43 sapier1 does anyone know when forums are expected to be online again?
18:43 VanessaE no idea but c55 already knows they're down.
18:43 iqualfragile no, not even celeron55 said anything about it
18:43 RealBadAngel NakedFury, i will collect all sources and providers connected, confront them, then find a path connecting source and a provider
18:43 RealBadAngel item will just follow the path
18:44 VanessaE [12-25 10:52] <celeron55> crap, where is minetest.net once again
18:44 VanessaE in -dev.
18:48 kaeza joined #minetest
18:48 VanessaE Kacey: there he is.  :-)
18:48 kaeza hey hey V
18:48 VanessaE kaeza: it's all your fault.
18:48 VanessaE :-)
18:48 VanessaE hi :-)
18:48 kaeza lolwut
18:48 Kacey ooh hai
18:49 kaeza hi Kacey
18:49 Kacey i need to compile minetest-irc
18:49 kaeza what happened?
18:49 kaeza am I goping to jail? :P
18:49 kaeza ah
18:50 kaeza do you have CMake already installed?
18:50 Kacey i think so yes
18:51 kaeza then cd <minetest-irc-dir> ; cmake . && make && make pack_mod
18:52 kaeza on noes!! teh forumz r down!!
18:53 Kacey thank you
18:54 kaeza Kacey: was that the problem you were having?
18:54 Kacey there is no bin folder
18:54 mitori joined #minetest
18:54 Kacey ooh duh
18:54 Kacey i need to compile now
18:54 kaeza nope
18:54 kaeza there is no bin folder
18:55 kaeza it should create an `irc' directory after you do "make "pack_mod"
18:55 Kacey so after doing that one line it is done?
18:55 kaeza yup
18:55 kaeza if you got no errors, yes
18:55 Kacey take the irc folder and put it in the mods folder?
18:55 kaeza exactly
18:56 kaeza bbiab
18:57 Kacey error in init.lua
18:59 Kacey [C]: in function 'require'
19:00 Kacey maybe...
19:09 OldCoder Hi
19:10 OldCoder sokomine, there are 3D animals in the works
19:10 sokomine hi oldcoder
19:10 OldCoder An improved pig is coming I think
19:10 OldCoder Howdy
19:10 sokomine yes, i saw sapier online and am talking with him :-)
19:10 OldCoder Kacey, you had a question about copies?
19:10 Kacey naw i got it
19:10 OldCoder All right
19:10 OldCoder Naw right
19:10 Kacey but i need kaeza
19:11 sokomine hm. concerning pigs...it would be nice if they where wild pigs. those look diffrent than the domesticated version. they could be a bit aggressive and stealing stuff the player planted (corn, carrots, ...) and try to chase players a way. perhaps a bit like the wolf
19:14 M13_ joined #minetest
19:14 mrdragons joined #minetest
19:15 OldCoder sokomine, that sounds fun
19:15 OldCoder Boars are not bores :P
19:15 Kacey hello m13
19:15 M13_ I got computer back
19:15 OldCoder sokomine wishes wild boars
19:15 Kacey i have xubuntu
19:15 M13_ :-)
19:15 OldCoder M13_, merry xmas
19:15 M13_ thnx, you too
19:15 M13_ OldCoder, please pm
19:16 sdzen merry something to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUKku3MhCPs
19:16 moltenbot sdzen's link: Merry Something To You - YouTube
19:16 Kacey kaeza i have a problem
19:17 sokomine yes :-) and more animals! and on all servers :-))))
19:18 * Kacey is going to go bash his head against a wall
19:19 PilzAdam gtg; bye
19:20 Kacey ooh wait i needed PilzAdam lol
19:25 kaeza back
19:25 kaeza what problem Kacey?
19:26 kaeza hi OldCoder
19:26 Kacey idk i cannot find it in debug.txt
19:26 Kacey but it cannot run init.lua
19:27 kaeza Kacey: do something: delete debug.txt, start the game, and when the error appears, quit the game, and upload your debug.txt
19:27 Kacey k in a minute
19:33 kaeza are the forums down?
19:34 sokomine i have a strange bug recently with my linux desktop...klicking on a window (especially minetest) doesn't update it anymore. only clicking and then forcing some new images helps...strange
19:35 kaeza sokomine: that happened to me with bugged gfx drivers
19:35 kaeza are you using latest drivers for your card
19:35 kaeza ?
19:38 Kacey kaeza can i dcc it to you
19:38 kaeza yes
19:39 OldCoder Hi
19:39 Kacey did you get it?
19:39 kaeza Kacey: got it
19:39 Final joined #minetest
19:39 sokomine it ought to be a relatively recent driver, yes
19:41 kaeza Kacey: may I PM?
19:41 Kacey sure
19:46 sokomine it's a 4.5 years old onboard nvidia chipset. hard to tell what's going wrong there. maybe a memory leak somewhere?
19:47 * Kacey is liking xubuntu
19:51 kaeza sokomine: I had problems with older PCI NVidia cards on Linux
19:52 Kacey how to i run a server on xubuntu for minetest
19:54 sokomine same as elsewhere i think? start the server with the right params?
19:54 Kacey how do i create the server
19:54 Kacey like the server program
19:54 sokomine bin/minetestserver --help
19:55 Kacey i dont have minetestserver
19:55 sokomine you have to supply the world it ought to use. help shows you the parameters. the worlds can even be listed
19:55 sokomine you need that. it's the very server
19:55 sokomine if you compiled it yourshelf it ought to rest in the bin/ folder next to the minetest-program (the client)
19:56 Kacey i got a batch file
19:59 Kacey hey kaeza
19:59 sokomine did you compile it yourshelf or did you get a package for your distribution?
20:00 STHGOM joined #minetest
20:00 sokomine to my knowledge the minetestserver is started automaticly when you run the client and start a singleplayer game. thus you have to have it somewhere
20:01 sapier1 no not quite it may be within minetest binary
20:01 Kacey kaeza
20:02 Kacey i am trying to test an irc client so anyone want to join go to 67.162.156.91 port 30000
20:02 sapier1 it is within minetest so if you disabled server on build you won't get a separate binary ... maybe it even won't be included in minetest client in this case but thats a guess
20:02 * OldCoder will return in a little while
20:02 sokomine oh? ok. didn't know that
20:03 OldCoder sapier1, I have not reviewed scrollback. Is your mod or modset reasonable for the CPU and RAM on my worlds?
20:03 kaeza back
20:03 kaeza Kacey?
20:04 sokomine hm. mobs on oldcoders worlds would be great :-) and oldcoder is online enough to take care of the server should anything go wrong
20:04 Kacey please come test my server
20:04 * sokomine grabs a few cows and sheep and leads them to calinous world on oldcoders server
20:05 kaeza Kacey: IP?
20:05 Kacey 67.162.156.91 port 30000
20:06 sapier1 latest 1.9.0 version is not ready for production use I've done lots of code rewriting so for latest version you'd better wait until 2.0 ... 1.4.6 is quite stable but has some performance issues with ALL MOBS enabled sheep cow chicken and deer most likely will work for other animals you may need to try ... but be warned automatic removal of disabled mobs is a feature added in new versions
20:06 kaeza Kacey: connecting :)
20:07 sapier1 for testing servers 1.9.0 should be fine
20:10 * VanessaE wanders back in panting and heaving and sweaty and dusty.
20:10 VanessaE ever torn out a flight of stairs?
20:10 * VanessaE <---- this is what it looks like.
20:12 Jordach VanessaE, use the admin pick. much faster.
20:13 VanessaE I guess what the IRL equivalent of that would be a Sawzall, which I didn't have permission to use :-)
20:13 VanessaE (the contractor left all his tools and stuff here so he can continue after the holidays)
20:14 NakedFury next time steal a truck from a construction site
20:14 VanessaE so I did it all with a 4kg sledge and a crowbar :-)
20:14 kaeza VanessaE: wish there was worldedit IRL...
20:14 VanessaE kaeza: +100000000000
20:15 Jordach kaeza, id do this to so many people IRL it would be ridiculous
20:15 Jordach and perhaps cover mexico in lava.
20:15 Jordach <joke>
20:15 Jordach (id probably be banned from life..._
20:15 Jordach )
20:15 STHGOM brb
20:16 STHGOM joined #minetest
20:18 kaeza <joke>maybe, there are too many mobs in Mexico</joke>
20:19 STHGOM joined #minetest
20:19 STHGOM left #minetest
20:19 kaeza well... everywhere
20:19 STHGOM joined #minetest
20:19 kaeza g*d planned to do a server restart on dec 21st, but he was a bit lazy :P
20:21 VanessaE naw, he just needs to rebuild his client and ban a few million players, the server's been running fine despite a fuckton of griefing :-)
20:22 VanessaE problem is some parts of the map are showing signs of corruption
20:25 iqualfragile joined #minetest
20:26 kaeza heh also it seems europe had about 1492 years of lag; the american chunks weren't getting to those parts
20:27 STHGOM Hello!
20:28 markveidemanis HELLO!
20:28 iqualfragile hi
20:28 VanessaE hi
20:28 markveidemanis HI
20:28 markveidemanis hello?
20:29 sokomine hm :) people griefing rl might be strange. imagine thiefs running away with a cubic meter of stone :-)
20:29 markveidemanis HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
20:29 VanessaE heh
20:29 markveidemanis heh = HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
20:30 markveidemanis "=" = merry christmas
20:30 markveidemanis ============================
20:30 sokomine to you as well :-)
20:30 markveidemanis and a happy new year for 2014
20:31 markveidemanis the whole "13" thing is unlucky
20:31 markveidemanis lets just skip it
20:31 john_minetest back
20:31 Kacey lol /time 2014
20:32 markveidemanis HAHHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHH
20:32 markveidemanis *cough
20:33 markveidemanis *ATCHOOO KOOP
20:33 Kacey lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards
20:34 markveidemanis HAHAHAHAHAHA
20:34 john_minetest is it possible to have colors in minetest ingame chat?
20:34 Kacey yes
20:34 markveidemanis it is in minecraft
20:34 Kacey edit fontlucidia.png
20:34 markveidemanis its white, white is a colour
20:34 STHGOM joined #minetest
20:35 john_minetest white is no color iirc
20:35 iqualfragile nope, white and black are no colours
20:35 markveidemanis are forums down
20:35 Kacey yes
20:35 markveidemanis Y
20:35 Kacey idk
20:35 markveidemanis again...
20:36 markveidemanis https://github.com/Zeg9
20:36 kaeza john_minetest: first, white *is* a color; second, the correct question would be "can you have multi-colored text in MT chat?", and third, it would be awesome to see this implemented
20:36 markveidemanis hahahahahahahahahahhhhhh
20:36 markveidemanis [20:33] <Kacey> lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards
20:36 Kacey just change fontlucidia.png to the color you want
20:36 kaeza Kacey: that does not work
20:36 markveidemanis [20:36] <markveidemanis> [20:33] <Kacey> lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards <== LOL repost
20:36 Kacey i did it once
20:37 kaeza if you change font to say yellow you still have single-colored text
20:37 * markveidemanis <== Awesome Guy
20:37 markveidemanis haha
20:37 Kacey but change each leter a diff. color
20:37 kaeza Kacey: you don't get the point do you?
20:37 Kacey ooh now i do
20:38 markveidemanis ooohhh
20:38 markveidemanis oooh
20:38 markveidemanis ahhh
20:38 markveidemanis <.>
20:38 john_minetest kaeza: that's what i meant. multi colored text in MT chat.
20:38 kaeza what if you want to say, e.g: [color=yellow]Hello![/color][color=red], world![/color]
20:38 john_minetest yes.
20:38 john_minetest would be nice for clan tags and server messages.
20:38 Kacey hmmmm maybe Calinou could make that
20:39 john_minetest multi-colored sign-messages would also be nice.
20:39 jin_xi joined #minetest
20:39 markveidemanis clearobjects ,, ,,, ,,,, , ,,
20:40 markveidemanis ...---..-.-.-.-..- ...-.---....-.--.-.-... ..--.-.--.-.-....-.- ...-.-.-.-.-..- .-. . .-.-.- .-
20:40 markveidemanis morse
20:40 markveidemanis <===================================================>
20:40 markveidemanis anyguess?
20:40 markveidemanis hmmmm
20:41 markveidemanis is it hmmm or hmmmm or hmmmmm
20:41 john_minetest stop spamming.
20:41 Kacey ...----...
20:41 markveidemanis or hmm
20:41 VanessaE bbl
20:41 markveidemanis or hm
20:41 markveidemanis Kacey: s-?-s
20:41 Kacey sos
20:41 john_minetest sos has only 3 - in the middle
20:42 john_minetest ...---...
20:42 Kacey i know i failed at it
20:42 john_minetest but that's off-topic.
20:42 markveidemanis ]0 is not ----, its ---
20:42 markveidemanis i am going to post a google link
20:42 markveidemanis http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=morse+code&amp;um=1&amp;hl=en&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;sa=N&amp;tbo=d&amp;channel=cs&amp;biw=1024&amp;bih=476&amp;tbm=isch&amp;tbnid=DTTmku7CMeU1gM:&amp;imgrefurl=http://www.learnmorsecode.com/&amp;docid=u_ijjvUyoadN4M&amp;imgurl=http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pix/CW.gif&amp;w=518&amp;h=234&amp;ei=iw_aUIO-N4mV0QXc8oCACw&amp;zoom=1&amp;iact=rc&amp;dur=6&amp;sig=106441845925408229611&amp;page=1&amp;tbnh=134&amp;tbnw=252&amp;start=0&amp;ndsp=12&amp;ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:157&amp;tx=132&amp;ty=63
20:43 kaeza markveidemanis: again, first follow the link and then copypasta the URL in the address bar
20:43 john_minetest on topic again: is it possible to make more lines in the ingame-MT-chat visible (without F10)?
20:43 markveidemanis i like copypasta
20:43 markveidemanis http://www.learnmorsecode.com/
20:43 sokomine yes, more lines or a chat history would be good. also i'd like slightly larger font
20:44 kaeza sokomine: you can't have them both, and expect to have a clean view of the game :)
20:44 john_minetest sokomine: yeah, sometimes quite difficult to read.
20:44 markveidemanis Nooooo
20:44 Kacey i thing a image viewer would be awesome
20:44 markveidemanis Noooooo
20:44 markveidemanis <==
20:45 Kacey think*
20:45 sapier1 is someone her who can add the fix for github issue 229 to main?
20:45 sokomine kaeza: yes, that's always the trouble :-) can't have everything at the same time. still..slightly larger font would be nice. the blocks are usually large enough to see them
20:45 markveidemanis Texas ===>
20:45 markveidemanis no, i have netbook
20:45 markveidemanis 1024x600
20:45 RealBadAngel weird winter this year, 3 days ago we had here -19 deg, now its +6 outside
20:45 kaeza Kacey: I've been thinking on making screeenshot sharing mod
20:46 markveidemanis make font smaller
20:46 markveidemanis yay
20:46 sokomine we had snow a few days ago. now its +11
20:46 ttk2 joined #minetest
20:46 markveidemanis </whoops/>
20:46 Kacey we had snow last night
20:46 kaeza it's 35 degrees here
20:46 kaeza beat that
20:46 markveidemanis bye,
20:46 markveidemanis Cya
20:46 sokomine where do you live?
20:46 RealBadAngel lol
20:46 kaeza southern hemisphere
20:47 sokomine ok. that makes sense :-)
20:47 kaeza we just entered summer
20:47 Kacey 36 degrees here
20:47 Kacey and we just entered winter
20:47 kaeza 36 degs F or C?
20:47 Kacey f
20:47 sokomine but we're expected to have winter now (germany). +11 degree celsius are far too much for this time. snow at christmas is rare
20:47 kaeza 35 degs C here
20:48 john_minetest sokomine: also from germany and same. 20 degrees on day.
20:48 OldCoder Hi
20:48 OldCoder Back
20:48 kaeza wb OC
20:48 john_minetest Wb.
20:48 sokomine that's even worse. 20 degree....at christmas...
20:48 OldCoder sokomine, But what of CPU for mobs?
20:48 OldCoder Are they improving?
20:48 * Kacey never got invited to the "table"
20:48 RealBadAngel we shall switch to use xmas palms soon
20:49 OldCoder xmas palms sound nice
20:50 Kacey OldCoder never invited me to the "table"
20:50 sokomine i had 100 mobs in a fenced-off small region. they behaved fine. also while running around i noticed no special lag (mapgen lags a lot even without mods). but i do use only "friendly" or at least natural mobs - that is, cows, sheep, birds, fishes, wolves...but no dm, vombies or the like. the aggressive mobs would be very annoying on a server one wants to build
20:52 OldCoder Kacey, PM
20:52 OldCoder Hmm
20:52 OldCoder Will others comment on mobs?
20:53 sapier1 if you do have problems with mobs I'd gladly help
20:53 STHGOM joined #minetest
20:54 OldCoder STHGOM, Hi
20:54 OldCoder sapier1, sokomine very well I will evaluate mobs
20:54 sokomine maybe mobs could be "sold" or "crafted" somehow. that way, people wishing for some on their meadows could place them in safe environements where too high acceleration doesn't occur and the mobs remain alive
20:54 STHGOM Hello!
20:54 sokomine hi
20:55 sokomine players who want to focus on the survival-aspects might have diffrent needs
20:57 john_minetest i don't like the idea of spawn eggs. it's too stolen from minecraft. eggs for chicken are nice, but for other animals there should be something different.
20:58 sokomine no, i don't mean spawn eggs. more machines or npc where you could by animals
20:58 Jeija joined #minetest
20:58 sokomine that's the way you obtain them rl as well...catching a wild one might be difficult :-)
21:00 STHGOM WHEAT!
21:00 sokomine hi jeija
21:00 sokomine er, buy animals
21:01 Jeija Hi everyone! What's wrong with minetest.net btw?
21:01 sokomine we don't know
21:05 aldobr joined #minetest
21:05 aldobr hi all
21:06 Kacey bbl
21:06 Kacey left #minetest
21:08 kaeza hi aldobr
21:08 kaeza is minetest.net down?
21:08 aldobr i believe so
21:08 aldobr i cant access it too
21:09 john_minetest minetest.net is down. api.minetest.net is up.
21:10 john_minetest so write a mod :D
21:10 aldobr i have no ideas left for a mod
21:10 aldobr i wanted to make radios/telephones
21:10 aldobr but they are useless if i cant filter shout messages
21:10 STHGOM evil mod mod with outlaws :D
21:10 STHGOM *mob mod
21:11 aldobr i have some ideas for mob's
21:11 aldobr but i dont want to enter that part of code now
21:11 STHGOM okok
21:11 STHGOM radio would be cool
21:11 STHGOM then you could make internet! :D
21:12 sokomine *g*
21:12 STHGOM *g*?
21:12 SpeedProg joined #minetest
21:12 sapier1 :-) create textures for vombie model make them use guns/bows and you'll have your outlaw
21:13 STHGOM :
21:13 STHGOM :D
21:13 STHGOM you could make a telegram thing with mesecons...
21:14 sapier1 btw "guns" are already present dm or big_red use them
21:14 Jordach how about cloning capsules for spawning animals?
21:14 STHGOM for normal farming?
21:15 sapier1 thougth about that too but how to make sure noone accidentaly removes them, how to ensure animals are not cloned to often
21:15 Jordach attack a animal with a vessel filled with molecularized water to extract dna, add a heavy metal vessel; result
21:15 STHGOM lol
21:15 sokomine i'd still prefer the animals beeing sold somewhere...
21:15 sapier1 lol ok ok you meant as additional mod
21:15 Jordach perhaps few more things in between, like gene refining, but you get the point
21:16 sokomine you could by a big box which contains the animal :-)
21:16 Jordach animal crates
21:16 STHGOM why dont two animals get "married" and have "kids"?
21:16 sokomine place that, click on it, and the animal moves out into your stable/on your meadow :-)
21:16 sapier1 thats already possible STHGOM
21:16 STHGOM good
21:16 sapier1 you only need to feed them
21:17 mrdragons STHGOM: Well goats have kids. *shrugs*
21:17 STHGOM lol
21:17 sokomine sthgom: they do. if you place barns and have a female and a male of that species around they can produce a new one
21:17 STHGOM for leading; you could have rope and lead animals to places
21:18 sapier1 :-) that's a little bit more difficult
21:18 Kacey joined #minetest
21:18 STHGOM :D
21:18 sokomine that would be nice as well. but can it be done? attachment seems to be too fixed for that
21:18 STHGOM wheat?
21:18 STHGOM oats?
21:18 STHGOM FOOD???
21:19 sapier1 leaves
21:19 sokomine the crates might do for now :-) buy one at a local shop (=some node like a chest) and place it where you want your animal :-)
21:19 sokomine yes, leaves. works fine
21:19 sokomine produces small animals which turn into grown-ups after some time
21:19 * OldCoder smells CPUs burning :-)
21:20 sapier1 but ain't
21:20 * OldCoder likes the ideas of farms and animals though
21:20 OldCoder No exploding CPUs?
21:20 OldCoder All right
21:20 OldCoder I will run animals
21:20 OldCoder If they stabilize
21:20 * sokomine puts a ...er...washing-clamp on oldcoders nose :)
21:20 sapier1 animals do already have an on_step handler just checking if they need to grow is next to no additional load
21:22 Jordach OldCoder, ensure the paste survives
21:22 Kacey VanessaE are you on?
21:23 aldobr create predators
21:23 * Jordach needs to stop thinking of rude jokes
21:23 aldobr plants -> vegetarians -> predators
21:23 STHGOM *ROOOOOOAAARRRRRRRR
21:23 * STHGOM is a BEAR!!!
21:23 aldobr if there are too much vegetarians, predators increase killing more vegetarians
21:23 aldobr else
21:23 aldobr predators decrease
21:23 aldobr etc
21:24 aldobr what about natural selection ? :D
21:24 aldobr make animal behaviour evolve
21:24 OldCoder Jordach, PM as I am out of sync
21:24 sapier1 would be great but doesn't work due to minetests chunk based world
21:24 Jordach okay.
21:24 sokomine hm. natural selection means: if there is no more cpu time for an animal it will get deleted? :-)
21:24 aldobr kind of
21:24 aldobr you can make the following
21:24 aldobr run a simulating thread that abstracts the animals
21:25 aldobr they get added to the chunk when the player passes by
21:25 aldobr or removed when the player is no longer looking
21:25 aldobr something like that
21:25 aldobr we need a fit function
21:25 sapier1 that would mean simulating the whole minetest world parallel to minetest ... I think you need some sort of compute cluster to do this properly
21:25 aldobr hm
21:25 aldobr :/
21:25 kaeza aldobr: that would be similar to the quake engine
21:26 kaeza and BSP trees
21:26 aldobr without the parallel world
21:26 aldobr cant do evolution
21:26 aldobr because evolution would be limited to happen only where the player is looking
21:26 aldobr this would take forever to evolve
21:26 aldobr but
21:26 aldobr hm
21:26 aldobr create another program
21:26 aldobr wich only porpuse is to evolve
21:26 aldobr let it run for some time
21:27 aldobr evolve the animals until they become to behave like animals
21:27 aldobr save the state to a file
21:27 aldobr ship minetest with that startup file
21:28 aldobr i can do that
21:28 aldobr if someone does the lua coding
21:28 sapier1 evolution means adapting to environment  ;-) it's a funny idea but for a game like minetest a much more simple aproach gives better results
21:28 M13 does anyone know if slitaz is capiable of running minetest?
21:28 STHGOM like traning
21:28 aldobr sapier1 i am thinking about a specific type of evolution
21:28 sapier1 for example?
21:28 aldobr wait
21:29 aldobr i am searching for a youtube video
21:29 sokomine yes, i think that evolution is too much. even if it's just the algorithm that's envolving
21:29 aldobr it was very simple
21:29 aldobr a car that evolves to drive
21:30 aldobr instead of being born knowing how to drive
21:30 sapier1 :-) i don't think evolution is simple ;-)
21:30 aldobr it can be done in a simple way
21:30 aldobr a random seed
21:30 sokomine the needs are diffrent. mostly we need players to feel like in a world where animals are (like in rl). maybe...considering which animals one encounters most rl in a forrest...dogs might roam around everywhere. and npc
21:30 aldobr the random see is used to decide the thresholds and connections of a small neural network
21:30 sapier1 show me I'm always eager to learn new ways of doing something
21:30 aldobr in the case of minetest animals
21:30 aldobr the neural network dont need to be big
21:30 sokomine that way, the most "fit" for survival animal would be one that never gets close to a player....
21:30 aldobr something like 20 neurons per animal is enough
21:31 sokomine players are major threads to npc!
21:31 sokomine well, if you could teach them not to fall down, that might help. but then it's a question of cpu-usage
21:31 kaeza1 joined #minetest
21:31 aldobr they will have to "copulate"
21:31 sapier1 neuronal network ai ... would be worth a try .. but is don't think as less as 20 would be enough
21:32 aldobr making crossover breed
21:32 aldobr at the start they will be pretty dump
21:32 aldobr but falling down will teach some lessons
21:32 aldobr :P
21:33 aldobr i am still searching for the video
21:33 john_minetest there should be different types of mobs: super hostile(attack when they see you), hostile(attack when you attacked them), neutral(just chill around) and fleeing(try to get away from you).
21:33 sapier1 you know in minetest you most likely only have a chance to compute every 250 ms
21:33 * sokomine lets the super hostile die out
21:34 sapier1 already possible in mobf @john_minetest
21:34 john_minetest mabe with a chat command that toogles the super hostile mobs.
21:34 john_minetest sapier1: N1CE!
21:35 aldobr found the video
21:36 aldobr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0jNMmdRMSo
21:36 moltenbot aldobr's link: Genetic Algorithm + Artificial Neural Network minesweepers - YouTube
21:36 aldobr videos
21:36 aldobr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&amp;feature=related
21:36 moltenbot aldobr's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube
21:36 aldobr they start quite stupid
21:36 aldobr over time the get smarter
21:36 aldobr but they dont have multi-billion-cells brains either
21:37 sapier1 there's a parameter "starts_attack" and another one  angryness regulating mobs chances to fight back
21:40 aldobr2 joined #minetest
21:41 aldobr2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&amp;feature=related <- that car is controlled by a neural network + Genetic algorithmn
21:41 moltenbot aldobr2's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube
21:41 aldobr2 over time it improves
21:43 sapier1 but that car does have only a 2d world, 2 modifyable parameters and a clear sense of "improovement"
21:43 aldobr joined #minetest
21:43 aldobr grrrrrrr
21:43 aldobr my network
21:43 aldobr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&amp;feature=related <- that car is controlled by a neural network + Genetic algorithmn
21:43 moltenbot aldobr's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube
21:43 sapier1 and 5 in and 5 optimizable parameters
21:44 aldobr make it so that mobs that get deactivated by going out of the chunk the player is
21:44 kaeza1 aldobr: I know that feel bro :)
21:44 aldobr are saved
21:44 aldobr so this will improve their fleeing behaviour
21:44 sapier1 not exactly that will improove their ability to stay away from walls
21:44 aldobr imputs are nearby blocks relative heigth to the current block the mob occupies
21:45 aldobr they will
21:45 aldobr cause they should have two drives
21:45 aldobr flee and eat
21:45 aldobr the vector towards the nearest food is an input
21:45 sapier1 that's far from enough in a 3d world
21:45 aldobr so some will be overwhelmed by the desire to flee
21:45 aldobr others will be overwhelmed by the desire to eat
21:45 aldobr ah
21:45 Kacey we need a rivers mod
21:45 aldobr we need another desire : reproduction
21:45 sdzen to eat players?
21:46 aldobr eat their food
21:46 sapier1 yes and you need improovable algorithms for pathfinding in 3d worlds
21:46 aldobr if it happens to be the player, thats a problem for players ;P
21:46 aldobr sapier1 they dont need path find
21:46 aldobr because they dont have any objective
21:46 aldobr they simple roam
21:46 aldobr looking for food and reproduction
21:46 aldobr and to stay alive
21:46 RealBadAngel sapier i do have pathfinding algorithms in my tubes
21:46 sapier1 true that'd be done by a network complex enough
21:47 aldobr nope
21:47 aldobr i say to you, theres no need for path finding
21:47 redcrab joined #minetest
21:47 sapier1 your tubes are much more deterministic than minetest real world
21:47 aldobr just basic desires
21:47 Kacey i would love to see this mod
21:47 sapier1 i understand what you mean aldobr but an animal must have at least basic abilitys to fullfill it's desires
21:48 aldobr sapier1
21:48 Kacey would it be possible to make a rivers and waterfalls mod?
21:48 aldobr their intelligence is already in their genes
21:49 aldobr the ones that get stuck in a hole will be unable to breed and eat
21:49 aldobr so they die without childs to perpetuate their genes
21:49 RealBadAngel Kacey, wait for new mapgen coming soon
21:49 sapier1 yes I now the basic concept about neuronal networks
21:49 Kacey ooh yay
21:49 sapier1 the car demo you showed is a very basic one
21:50 aldobr if you watch the video
21:50 sapier1 1 clear target (number of white lines passed)
21:50 aldobr you will see that the first ones are so stupid that they run towards the wall instead of avoiding the wall
21:50 RealBadAngel there are two version of mapgen coming
21:50 aldobr = their neurons are connected wrongly
21:50 sapier1 5 optimizable parameters (distance of angles to edge of track)
21:50 sapier1 and 2 parameters to modify
21:50 sapier1 speed and rotation
21:51 STHGOM btw aldobr do you still need ideas?
21:51 aldobr yes
21:51 STHGOM map mod?
21:51 sapier1 so optimizable parameters for mob would be
21:51 sokomine yes, but how many animals will it take so that these selection effects have an effect?
21:51 aldobr sokomine i believe a huge ammount
21:51 aldobr so we will run a "controlled environment" simulation for a time
21:52 aldobr save the genes of the best results
21:52 sapier1 distance angle to food | distance angle to next animal to breed | distance angle to enemy (each with multiple values)
21:52 aldobr and ship the game with that seeds
21:53 sokomine the trouble is: with a world like minetest, you need realism only to a limited degree. the mobs need to serve the player. survival...is only insofar important as a new mob spawning eats cpu time. and animals jumping to their death do not convince players that the animals are realistic enough
21:53 sapier1 speed, angle x,y, altitude change as changeable parameters
21:53 sapier1 but what to optimize? in a 3d world there's lot to check
21:54 sokomine at which distance are animals disabled?
21:54 Kacey how about at viewing distance
21:54 Kacey brb
21:54 sapier1 not much mor than you can see
21:54 Kacey afk
21:54 sokomine hm, yes. "don't run faster than you can see" might be a good rule :-)
21:54 RealBadAngel work on loaded blocks
21:54 RealBadAngel not view range
21:55 aldobr add a rule
21:55 sokomine ah. so it's difficult to tell what will be loaded?
21:55 RealBadAngel no
21:55 aldobr that says that if the animal fleed far enough to become deactivated
21:55 RealBadAngel you dont care bout it
21:55 aldobr it is saved
21:55 sokomine (except when fleeing from a predator like a player)
21:55 aldobr this improves their desire to flee
21:55 sokomine but deactivated animals won't reproduce either
21:55 aldobr yes but their seed is saved
21:55 RealBadAngel add serialize to store animal when unloading, and deserialize when block gets loaded
21:55 sokomine it might be very intresting as a game of its own
21:56 aldobr as soon as the animal is out of sight
21:56 sapier1 so as soon as a new chunk is loaded maybe thousands of fleed animals get activated at once ;)
21:56 aldobr they dont exist anymore
21:56 aldobr nope
21:56 aldobr seed pool
21:56 aldobr if an animal is out of sight
21:56 aldobr instead of being saved (then)
21:56 aldobr save his seed with a score
21:56 aldobr and kill it
21:56 sapier1 not possible in minetest
21:56 aldobr when a new chunk is loaded
21:56 sapier1 as soon as an entity leaves loaded chunk area its unloaded
21:56 aldobr select a random number of animals to create
21:57 aldobr create then using the seeds saved in the pool
21:57 sapier1 there's no way to do something on chunk load
21:57 STHGOM lol
21:57 aldobr maybe we need to add a new lua entry ?
21:57 aldobr "register on chunk load" ?
21:57 RealBadAngel i do have items in tubes goin round and round
21:57 sokomine what we need most for them can be done already: models and animations so that their "behaviour" does not seem too strange for players. those are completely diffrent aspects...."surviving" and "giving players a good gameplay". we need the later one
21:57 RealBadAngel can leave the area and go back
21:58 RealBadAngel and they will be still moving
21:58 sapier1 considering how slow mapgen is i don't think doing this on any chunk load is a good idea
21:58 sokomine if you really go into animals players want to fight with, it would be a terrible idea if said animals would be *too good* at fleeing
21:58 RealBadAngel i will show you something
21:58 aldobr real life animals are too good at fleeing
21:58 aldobr thats why hunters used bows and guns
21:58 aldobr not swords
21:59 * VanessaE wanders back in
21:59 aldobr you cant hunt a deer using a full metal armour and a sword
21:59 RealBadAngel sapier1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySI38AOIfAA
21:59 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: Unload/Load with items in tubes - YouTube
21:59 aldobr he will simply out run you
22:00 sapier1 that's not what I meant, of course they will move again as soon as the chunk is loaded. think about following case
22:00 sapier1 an animal is spawned next to a chunk boundary
22:00 sapier1 it moves towards the boundery thus beeing unloaded
22:00 sapier1 next one is spawned ... doing same thing ... again and again
22:01 aldobr thats why i want do add mobs only at chunk load
22:01 sapier1 now player moves and the former unloaded chunk is now loaded ---> hundreds and thousands of mobs are loaded at once
22:01 aldobr add a new lua function minetest.register_on_chunk_load
22:01 aldobr minetest.register_on_chunk_unload
22:01 RealBadAngel in minecraft hostlie mobs were spawning/despawning only in certain range around player
22:01 sapier1 as I already told, this will introduce lots of additional lag to minetest
22:02 aldobr well sapier1
22:02 aldobr this needs to be teste
22:02 aldobr you cant know for sure without test
22:02 aldobr *tested
22:02 Kacey_ joined #minetest
22:02 sapier1 of course ... but we already have very similar case ... mapgen
22:02 aldobr i remmember algorithmn complexity lessons
22:02 Kacey_ hello
22:02 aldobr omg my algorithmn is o(n^2)
22:02 aldobr this is too costly !
22:03 aldobr what happens if O is soo small that even with N^2
22:03 aldobr the endresult is the same as another algorithmn that does O(N) ?
22:04 orbitaldecay joined #minetest
22:04 RealBadAngel sapier, so despawn (kill) hostile mobs on unload or when too far from the player
22:04 sapier1 you have to consider that evolution is an effect only working on huge numbers of individuals so your O never can be small if you expect any reasonable effect
22:04 aldobr sapier1
22:04 aldobr thats why we will need a teste case version
22:04 aldobr to let it run for a long time
22:04 aldobr and get results
22:04 aldobr then ship only reasonable seeds
22:04 RealBadAngel and make a limit of active mobs in loaded area
22:04 aldobr RealBadAngel exact
22:05 RealBadAngel but that should apply only to hostile mobs
22:05 RealBadAngel not to breadable ones
22:05 sapier1 you know how small minetests current limit for active mobs is=
22:05 aldobr think
22:05 aldobr does it really care
22:05 aldobr if the vombie that attacked me
22:05 aldobr is the same that attacked john doer ?
22:06 sapier1 for scientific cases it's not but for a game it is
22:06 aldobr why ?
22:06 aldobr they have the same behaviour
22:06 aldobr brains ! brains !
22:06 sapier1 wait I thing we're talking of different things atm
22:07 sapier1 I'm talking about the active mob limit
22:07 aldobr set a limit to active mobs
22:07 aldobr kill anything that exceeds
22:07 aldobr save their seed in a pool
22:07 sapier1 bad idea
22:07 aldobr kill anything that strays out of visible area
22:07 aldobr save their seeds
22:07 aldobr et
22:07 aldobr etc
22:07 sapier1 ppl get mad if their stable is empty
22:07 aldobr hm
22:08 aldobr i was not taking domestication into account
22:08 aldobr that makes everything harder
22:08 RealBadAngel i already told that, despawnin should only apply to hostile ones
22:08 RealBadAngel appearing and walkin away randomly
22:08 sapier1 first step would be creating mobs fulfilling only one need .. getting food
22:09 RealBadAngel breeded ones shall be stored in every case
22:09 aldobr food and to stay alive
22:09 aldobr out of player hands
22:09 sapier1 if and only if that works at all adding predators would be an option
22:10 sapier1 but finding food in a 3d world is a much more complex task to achieve than staying in the middle of a track
22:10 aldobr real world animals find food by pure luck
22:10 sapier1 not quite
22:10 aldobr you will say that they have senses
22:10 aldobr like smell
22:10 tjbarber joined #minetest
22:11 aldobr but even then
22:11 aldobr its luck
22:11 sapier1 real world animals have born in algorithms
22:11 RealBadAngel if you wont encounter same problem that australia had with rabbits
22:11 tjbarber Hey guys, the minetest website is down for me. Could someone get me the link to the Mac binary download?
22:11 aldobr because smelling food is an random event
22:11 tjbarber thanks in advance ;)
22:11 kaeza1 tjbarber: hi!
22:11 kaeza1 yes minetest.net is down
22:12 aldobr "find object in radius"
22:12 tjbarber hey there ;P
22:12 aldobr search for mob food in a radius
22:12 aldobr this can account for "smell" or "seeing" the food
22:12 aldobr calculate a vector towards the food
22:12 aldobr either will happen
22:12 sapier1 works 2d only
22:12 aldobr the animal will lose track of the food
22:13 aldobr while trying to reach it without falling into a pit
22:13 sapier1 but would be worth a try
22:13 aldobr or will reach it
22:13 aldobr or stay stuck
22:13 aldobr a stuck animal is easy to hunt
22:13 aldobr so he dies
22:13 NakedFury give a view/hear range stat to mobs. if they see food in their range they go to eat
22:13 aldobr and leaves no childs
22:13 aldobr his seed is removed from the pool
22:14 sapier1 you know we need to simulate all the behaviour real world animals do which have far more complex brains than we will be able to simulate
22:14 aldobr well
22:14 aldobr if we manage to simulate an amoeba
22:14 ZOMBIEEEEE BRAINZZZZ
22:14 aldobr i would be very proud :P
22:14 tjbarber what is the latest version?
22:14 sapier1 ok we have blocks in this world true ... but movement is as complex as in real world
22:14 RealBadAngel 0.4.4 is the latest stable
22:15 aldobr make another input
22:15 aldobr based on terrain surroundings
22:15 tjbarber ok. Thanks RealBadAngel. Right now I was able to find a copy of 0.4 dev release for Mac
22:15 aldobr impassable = more than 1 block in height difference
22:15 aldobr passabe = 0 or 1 height difference
22:15 aldobr unless the animal is a bird
22:16 sapier1 don't talk about birds
22:16 aldobr that opens a whole different setup
22:16 aldobr animals with good seeds will learn to avoid moving into directions that lead to bigger than 1 height differences
22:16 aldobr because they could either fall and die outright
22:16 aldobr or get stuck in a concave structure
22:17 aldobr and be hunted by their predator
22:17 NakedFury I guess the AI will work better if written in C++ right?
22:17 sapier1 sorry can you please stop telling "and magicaly it learns and everything is fine" ... miracles don't occur that easy
22:17 aldobr sure
22:17 kaeza1 NakedFury: +1
22:17 aldobr sapier1 its not miracle
22:17 aldobr its natural selection
22:17 aldobr it has done quite impressive things in the real world
22:17 sapier1 no it's neuronal networks combined wit natural selection
22:17 kaeza1 aldobr: pathfinding in a 3D world is no easy task
22:17 aldobr kaeza1 no need for pathfinding
22:18 aldobr animals have no stated objective
22:18 aldobr they simply roam
22:18 aldobr all they need is to avoid some critical pitfalls
22:18 NakedFury aldobr that insane AI you want would need sapier1 through sapier99 working on it non stop for some years to work for minetest
22:18 aldobr and keep roaming
22:18 STHGOM joined #minetest
22:18 sapier1 neuronal networks are good things to manage complex tasks with no exact solution ... but I think you underestimate computational needs by some degrees
22:18 aldobr we need to check the real computational need
22:19 aldobr i dont know
22:19 aldobr is 20 neurons enough ?
22:19 aldobr 200 ?
22:19 aldobr 20000000 ?
22:19 aldobr only a model can answer that
22:19 sapier1 to check the computational need to create the full environment to learn ... which is lot of work to do
22:19 aldobr the world is not exectly 3d for a mob
22:20 sapier1 it is 3d
22:20 aldobr its a 2d map of heights
22:20 aldobr because most mobs cant fly
22:20 aldobr nor can change the environment in meaningfull ways
22:20 orbitaldecay the last thing you want to use in a real time AI for a game is a neural network
22:20 orbitaldecay slow slow slow
22:20 sapier1 thre still can be bridges in this world
22:20 kaeza1 aldobr: you cannot convert a 3d world to a 2d heightmap
22:20 aldobr too hard to explain in english
22:21 kaeza1 no I understand what you say
22:21 aldobr you can flatten the 3d structure
22:21 sapier1 no you cant
22:21 aldobr check only what is at the same level as the mob
22:21 sapier1 at least not for all situations
22:21 kaeza1 but at the sane (X,Z), you can have several Y's
22:21 kaeza1 same*
22:21 aldobr yes
22:21 aldobr but you can simply ignore
22:21 aldobr because the mobs will simply roam
22:22 aldobr flatten the structure
22:22 sapier1 no you can't that cases you want to ignore are those cases causing 99% of troubles
22:22 aldobr tell me one
22:22 kaeza1 aldobr: that could mean a mob cannot "roam" inside a cave for example
22:22 NakedFury too much trouble, go with minecraft style AI
22:22 aldobr kaeza1 so what ?
22:22 kaeza1 because he would see other Y
22:22 sapier1 neither could it walk through a hole in a wall
22:22 aldobr i am seeing a solution
22:22 aldobr where all those things are immaterial
22:22 orbitaldecay yeah, I'm doing graduate study in machine learning, its way more messy than people realize
22:23 Kacey back
22:23 aldobr machine learning is a big field with lots of subtopics
22:23 kaeza1 wb Kacey
22:23 orbitaldecay indeed it is
22:23 aldobr i would be afraid of making such a sweeping generalization
22:23 aldobr even because i dont know much about that field
22:23 orbitaldecay I'm not lol
22:23 sapier1 i know this @orbitaldecay beginners lessons always tell "you can do everything" but if you look into details you see those details require much more time and attention than everything else
22:24 aldobr you are raising details
22:24 aldobr but not giving just one sample
22:24 sapier1 I've already told 3d worlds with multiple levels of surface
22:24 aldobr kaeza1 i am thinking in a solution
22:24 aldobr where even flattening the world
22:24 aldobr the mob WILL enter caves
22:24 sapier1 you can't flatten that world
22:25 aldobr yes you can :)
22:25 sapier1 how?
22:25 orbitaldecay I would love to see someone implement a practical machine learning algorithm for minetest
22:25 kaeza1 aldobr: no you cant
22:25 orbitaldecay but I will believe it when I see it
22:25 aldobr yes you can :D hahaha
22:25 NakedFury orbital do it as your tesis project
22:25 NakedFury :D
22:25 orbitaldecay that would be fun :D
22:25 aldobr make a 2d map
22:25 aldobr of the relative height of surroundings
22:25 sapier1 you need to create a 2d map on the fly everytime you do your calculations
22:25 aldobr going upwards that height is measured from the bottom of blocks
22:26 aldobr going downwards that height is measured from the top of blocks
22:26 aldobr you dont need to make a big 2d map
22:26 aldobr just a map like 5x5
22:26 sapier1 ok probably i dont understand but if a mob is standing on surface
22:26 aldobr enough to detect food
22:26 aldobr and predators
22:26 aldobr it WILL enter the cave
22:26 sapier1 plz forget about predators
22:27 tjbarber wait is there even a Mac binary or is it just win32? xD
22:27 aldobr because the cave will show up as open
22:27 sapier1 just start with simple things bevore adding whol complexity
22:27 tjbarber found minetest's github
22:27 Jakssoul joined #minetest
22:27 sapier1 there is no "cave"
22:27 Jakssoul Hola.
22:27 sapier1 there are just blocks
22:27 aldobr sapier1
22:27 orbitaldecay aldobr: wouldn't the mobs all eventually get stuck in pits?
22:27 aldobr orbitaldecay yes
22:28 orbitaldecay how would you prevent it?
22:28 tjbarber hi jakssoul ;)
22:28 aldobr and die out of hunger
22:28 aldobr mobs that die are removed from the gene pool
22:28 Jakssoul tjbarber, have we spoken before?
22:28 sapier1 that's problem that shall be fixed by evolution and neuronal networks which might even work
22:28 aldobr just need a way to detect whats a pit
22:28 orbitaldecay what would stop the entire population from dying that way?
22:28 aldobr nothing
22:28 sapier1 now you get the point
22:28 orbitaldecay before anyone learns how?
22:28 tjbarber Jakssoul, maybe... I hang around on Freenode
22:28 sapier1 aldobr you only have blocks and distances
22:28 aldobr but how do we know without even modelling the thing to see if its feasible ?
22:29 orbitaldecay aldobr: I think modeling it is a great idea
22:29 Jakssoul I'd remember ya, I don't think we have. It's funny that you'd say hi when people I speak to all the time won't. >_>
22:29 orbitaldecay but I think it will be hard to do
22:29 sapier1 there is no "cave" "pit" "bridge" "whole" or anything like that
22:29 aldobr sapier1 yes there are
22:29 tjbarber lol!
22:29 aldobr if you find an algorithmn to heuristically detect what is a cave
22:29 aldobr what is a pit
22:29 aldobr etc
22:29 orbitaldecay supposing that there are, being able to recognize a pit or a hole and actually avoiding it are two different things
22:29 sapier1 lol
22:30 orbitaldecay both of which are pretty hard
22:30 orbitaldecay I think
22:30 sapier1 that's not possible ... your neuronal network will have to create that algortithm
22:30 orbitaldecay but it sounds like a fun project
22:30 aldobr nope
22:30 aldobr i am right now thinking about a way
22:30 sapier1 tell me
22:31 aldobr cut the world
22:31 aldobr only the same Y as the mob
22:31 aldobr 5x5 or more
22:31 aldobr if a node is "default:air"
22:31 aldobr seek downwards and upwards until finding something that blocks passage
22:32 aldobr when seeking downards
22:32 aldobr the top face is taking as the measure point
22:32 aldobr when seeking upwards
22:32 aldobr the bottom face is taken as the measure point
22:32 sapier1 far to slow ... you need to use mobs position as base ... but thats detail only
22:32 aldobr measure it to the mob's current Y
22:32 aldobr this will generate a heigth map
22:32 aldobr you flattened the world...
22:32 aldobr look
22:33 aldobr theres a cave -40000 from the current mob position
22:33 aldobr does it matter ?
22:33 sapier1 ok I'm still listening
22:33 aldobr when you are playing
22:33 aldobr sometimes there are caves -2000 blocks from your current position
22:33 aldobr but you dont care
22:33 kaeza joined #minetest
22:33 aldobr because you dont even know that they are there
22:33 Jakssoul hola kaeze!
22:33 Jakssoul kaeza*
22:33 sapier1 you know follow movement gen currently splits world n 3x3 squares and even this is to slow for minetest?
22:33 john_minetest hi kaeza
22:33 aldobr sapier1 is this done in C++ ?
22:33 kaeza o hai Jakssoul
22:34 kaeza hi john_minetest
22:34 john_minetest there should maybe be a mob api in c++
22:34 orbitaldecay +1
22:34 sapier1 no it ain't but you don't need to believe c is doing miracles
22:34 Jakssoul kaeza, is there a binary release of Minetest for Max? tjbarber asked me and I'm not entirely sure.
22:34 kaeza john_minetest: mobs were in C++ prior to 0.4 stable
22:34 Jakssoul I have found a project working on it, but not a release.
22:35 kaeza Jakssoul, tjbarber: the mac build is really old IIRC
22:35 sapier1 that's because celeron didn't want c++ mobs anymore
22:35 tjbarber I found a dev release for like 0.4
22:35 aldobr sapier1 if this is that slow
22:35 sapier1 mobf would be a c++ api
22:35 tjbarber so will I need to compile it?
22:35 Dogzilla131 joined #minetest
22:35 aldobr then there are problems with current data structures
22:35 kaeza tjbarber: that's your best bet for now
22:35 aldobr i dont know minetest internals
22:35 aldobr so...
22:35 Jakssoul Yup, newest one I found is also .04
22:35 Jakssoul 0.4*
22:36 john_minetest mobf should be a set of api functions only that can be called with lua mods. so everybody can add own animals.
22:36 aldobr how are nodes stored internally ?
22:36 kaeza Jakssoul, tjbarber: 0.4 is really old :P we are at 0.4.4 now
22:36 sapier1 aldobr we're not talking about 100 nodes ... we're talking about thousands of nodes
22:36 tjbarber yep
22:36 VanessaE zzz
22:36 Jakssoul Hellllooo VanessaE.
22:36 aldobr i believe
22:36 VanessaE hi
22:36 sapier1 mobf already is what you want it to be @john_minetest
22:36 Jakssoul Anyone know why Minetest.net is down?
22:37 tjbarber I mean I should be able to compile it ok... I guess I'll just have to play with it
22:37 aldobr work should be concentrated in map handling/generation
22:37 aldobr to get something faster
22:37 aldobr then tackle complex mobs
22:37 VanessaE Jakssoul: dunno, at least c55 already knows about it anyway
22:37 john_minetest sapier1: cool. does mobf contain any mobs?
22:37 Jakssoul Well I think that's obvious. Does he maintain the site himself?
22:38 sapier1 yes of course I needed them to test it's functions
22:38 NakedFury aldobr: yes in steps. fix/edit/rework/etc map then tackle the next goal or objective
22:38 aldobr is it a simple array ?
22:38 aldobr with x,y,z coords ?
22:39 sapier1 not quite it's somehow chunk based as server couldn't handle whole world in memory if it'd be loaded at once
22:39 aldobr yes i know
22:39 aldobr but the chunks
22:39 aldobr are arrays ?
22:39 aldobr indexed by x,y,z ?
22:40 orbitaldecay hopefully the chunks are in a tree of some sort
22:40 sapier1 I don't exactly know I didn't bother with c++ code for some time as noone seemd to accept improovements
22:40 aldobr k
22:40 aldobr i will do the following
22:41 NakedFury they will be accepted sapier
22:41 aldobr i will search for the correct data structure for storing a "map"
22:41 aldobr or is anybody else workin on the map ?
22:41 NakedFury aldobr the user hmmmmm is working on revamping the mapgeneration completely
22:41 aldobr ok
22:41 aldobr so i rest my case :P
22:42 sapier1 @nakedfury ...theoreticaly they are ... practicaly sometimes they are sometimes not
22:43 RealBadAngel not only him
22:43 aldobr having multiple representations of the map at the same time
22:43 RealBadAngel https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest
22:43 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: kwolekr/minetest ? GitHub
22:43 aldobr can improve times
22:43 aldobr but at the price of more memmory
22:43 RealBadAngel heres another mapgen, with biomes support
22:43 aldobr like a x,y,z array of nodes for random access
22:43 aldobr plus a tree representation
22:43 sapier1 btw mobf is already shaped like c++ code so it'd be no big deal to translate
22:44 kaeza1 joined #minetest
22:44 aldobr i remember that omnistudent was working in a project
22:44 aldobr to make bots that run distributed
22:44 aldobr they run outside server
22:44 aldobr as if they were players
22:44 hmmmm guys
22:45 Jakssoul Hmmm?
22:45 aldobr this opens a whole lot of possibilities
22:45 hmmmm come to think about it, hold off on pasting my repository before i fix it
22:45 sapier1 this is a game .. we can't use compute clusters
22:45 hmmmm it crashes crap instantly because i still haven't committed the Y->Z swap
22:45 aldobr sapier1 well, we can
22:46 sapier1 if you want someone to play this game you can't
22:46 aldobr well
22:46 aldobr two computers is already distributed computing
22:47 aldobr three etc
22:47 aldobr ok
22:47 hmmmm distributed computing....
22:47 aldobr i understand your argument
22:47 hmmmm maybe for your fork of minetest, or your own minecraft clone
22:47 aldobr price
22:47 hmmmm but not in this project, sorry
22:47 aldobr i am not working on it
22:47 aldobr its omnistudent work
22:47 hmmmm well we have enough idea guys
22:47 hmmmm we need coding guys
22:47 aldobr i can code
22:48 aldobr but will take some time to get familiarized with minetest source
22:48 hmmmm if you want minetest to be able to do this, then perhaps you ought to code it
22:48 sapier1 still you'd need to write your own client to create a mob ... running one client each mob ... thus pushing load to server as if 100+ players would be online
22:48 hmmmm (read:  put your code where your mouth is)
22:48 aldobr sapier1
22:48 aldobr i dont know how he plans to solve that
22:49 aldobr you are getting too defensive without reason to
22:49 aldobr i see no reason
22:49 sapier1 we are talking about a solution with distributed mobs am i right?
22:49 aldobr no
22:49 kaeza1 aldobr: we are not "defensive"
22:49 aldobr we are talking to a solution for mobs
22:49 aldobr whatever it takes
22:50 aldobr *talking about
22:50 kaeza1 if you can get that working right, without a huge CPU load
22:50 aldobr distributed or local
22:50 kaeza1 then open a pull request
22:50 aldobr neural network, genetic, machine learning
22:50 aldobr whatever
22:50 kaeza1 and maybe someone will find your changes useful
22:51 aldobr kaeza1 i want to work on the map thing first
22:51 aldobr cause most people are complaining about the map being too slow
22:51 aldobr so this is where to start
22:51 sapier1 aldobr I've gotten lots of good ideas since I started mobf ... many are great ... I even thought about the same way you proposed ... but for lots of reasons I've not done this by now ... performance is only the most obvious one
22:51 aldobr so what are you planning to do ?
22:52 hmmmm if you want to implement a smart AI for mobs, I would take a look at STRIPS planning system
22:52 kaeza1 aldobr: also distributed computing as you say, may not be the case
22:52 aldobr kaeza1 going to clouds can work miracles
22:52 aldobr but
22:52 kaeza1 you must also see that on singleplayer when the only one is you
22:52 aldobr its not cheap for a game
22:53 sapier1 mobf is implemented in a way you easyly can replace it's movement gen ... if there is a way to use neuronal networks to achiev this target this would be the first step in my opinion
22:53 kaeza1 It's better to optimize the current algorithm than to require other computers to do the job for you
22:54 aldobr hmmmm your agressive remark only got one result, i am more inclined now to not help instead of helping (wich was my original intention)
22:54 sapier1 sorry i didn't want to sound agressive
22:54 sapier1 i just want a step by step solution
22:54 john_minetest gtg now, bye
22:55 john_minetest left #minetest
22:55 aldobr sapier1 theres no step by step solution without discussion
22:55 hmmmm hey, that's fine, it's a free country
22:55 kaeza1 aldobr: you must not take everyone that says your idea is bad as aggresive
22:55 hmmmm you can do anything
22:55 aldobr kaeza1 the remark WAS agressive
22:56 sapier1 I'm not even saying "it's bad" I'm just not conviced it can be done
22:56 aldobr actually, minetest community has a lot of agressivenes
22:56 aldobr you can see that from the ammount of coders leaving the community
22:56 kaeza1 yeah, sorry, I suck a bit at english
22:56 aldobr check forum
22:56 hmmmm well come on, for the past two days you've been just blabbing on about big ideas that'll never actually get implemented
22:56 kaeza1 sapier1: that's what I meant, sorry
22:56 aldobr hmmmm how do you know ?
22:56 aldobr you made one thing
22:56 hmmmm i don't know, it's just a hunch
22:56 aldobr now they SURE wont
22:57 sdzen a very good one
22:57 hmmmm if you'd like to prove me wrong...
22:57 NakedFury joined #minetest
22:57 aldobr too much MACHO thing here
22:57 aldobr looks like i will join the leaving coders, without even coding anything but some mods
22:57 hmmmm have fun
22:57 sapier1 I understand what aldobr means but probably we should take into consideration that next to no one of us is english native speaker so probably some sentences can easyly be misinterpreted
22:58 hmmmm we didn't lose anything
22:58 aldobr YES!
22:58 hmmmm nah, he knew what i was saying perfectly...
22:58 aldobr thats exactly the attitude a am talking about
22:58 aldobr <hmmmm> we didn't lose anything
22:58 aldobr that phrase is perfect to state the attitude i am talking about
22:58 hmmmm aldobr:  should we be begging you for your help instead?
22:58 aldobr hmmmm is that a dichotomy ?
22:58 sapier1 plz lets stick back to the problem ;-)
22:58 aldobr beg or reject outright ?
22:59 VanessaE aldobr: perhaps you should focus on smaller projects first?
22:59 aldobr cant you do something in between ?
22:59 hmmmm no, but it seems like you want instantaneous praise
22:59 aldobr praise ?
22:59 VanessaE distributed computing for a game that doesn't even have a centralized server system?
22:59 aldobr pls show me where i asked for praise ?
22:59 hmmmm i said it seems like it
22:59 aldobr a single phrase, pls
22:59 aldobr it seems
22:59 aldobr because thats a projection ?
22:59 hmmmm christ....
22:59 hmmmm alright, i'm out.
22:59 aldobr thanks, we are not losing anything ?
23:00 aldobr think some opensource problems suffer from the same problems continually
23:00 sapier1 aldobr calm down this is a community project sometimes you have to live with your proposals not beeing accepted even if they are better ;-)
23:00 aldobr i am calm guy
23:00 aldobr ive seen that attitude before
23:00 sapier1 se mobf ... it great doing anythin but still doesn't have any chance to be added to master :)
23:00 aldobr sapier1 i accept my proposal not being accepted
23:00 aldobr its perfectly ok
23:01 aldobr what i dont accept is that attitude
23:01 celeron55 lol
23:01 hmmmm well if you don't like it you can just fork it
23:01 aldobr you take any proposal not as a proposal but as a kind of
23:01 aldobr cant remember the word
23:01 aldobr as if as i was demanding it
23:01 RealBadAngel cant you guys just stop it? :)
23:01 RealBadAngel cmon, its xmas
23:02 aldobr people are too defensive
23:02 celeron55 the world is full of ideas, but the world is missing people who actually can do and finish stuff
23:02 aldobr i can do
23:02 aldobr but this is not an ego thing
23:02 sapier1 aldobr we're discussing your proposal for hours now we wouldn't do this if it'd not be an interesting aproach
23:02 aldobr its hard to express myself not in my native language
23:02 hmmmm we get what you mean perfectly; trust me
23:03 STHGOM where are you from?
23:03 aldobr brazil
23:03 sapier1 I guss implementing your proposal in a way you can really tell if it's working or not is about half a year of development (part time of course)
23:03 kaeza1 merry xmas celeron55
23:03 STHGOM what is your native language?
23:03 aldobr portuguese
23:03 STHGOM ok
23:03 STHGOM ola!
23:03 aldobr back to the topic
23:03 STHGOM (i only know a little)
23:04 STHGOM ok
23:04 aldobr i believe i should focus myself into implementing the delta engine i was talking about
23:04 sapier1 I'm already back at topic ;-) @aldobr
23:04 Jeija http://www.mesecons.net/addserver.html << This is where you can add your server to my multiplayer server list. At the moment it is added straight away, I'm working on the proposals from the pull request.
23:04 moltenbot Jeija's link: Minetest Serverlist - Add Server
23:04 aldobr but its quite hard to jump into a source code that i never touched before
23:04 aldobr without directions
23:04 hmmmm aldobr, start reading the wiki
23:04 celeron55 the wiki... that is down 8)
23:04 hmmmm well =/
23:05 aldobr hmmmm i've already done a mod to get acquited of the game
23:05 sapier1 anotherones code is always hard to read until you understand the way he was thinking
23:05 aldobr now i want to jump into the c++
23:05 aldobr actually
23:05 aldobr i am not sure if i want
23:05 aldobr <hmmmm> we didn't lose anything
23:05 hmmmm oh speaking of which
23:05 hmmmm i need to add documentation on the new stuff on the wiki
23:06 hmmmm who is in charge of that, xyz?
23:06 aldobr maybe thats why there are so much leaving coders at the forum...
23:06 celeron55 hmmmm: in charge of minetest.net?
23:06 VanessaE aldobr: there are a dozen bugs that need fixed and no one is able, or has the time, inclination, or skills to fix - why not just start there?
23:06 hmmmm yeah
23:06 celeron55 hmmmm: i am (except for api.minetest.net)
23:06 sapier1 if you start coding for minetest you'll have to get used to minetests coding style ... which is (at least to me) somehow strange ... sorry to all developers its just my personal oppinion
23:06 celeron55 and i can't do anything once again
23:06 hmmmm welp
23:06 hmmmm no hurry
23:06 VanessaE celeron55: I wish I knew what I were doing, I'd be more than happy to host the forums et.al on my web space
23:07 hmmmm sapier1, what do you find strange about it in particular?
23:07 hmmmm the syntax, style of code flow, the code itself?
23:07 celeron55 VanessaE: thexyz can take the site any time... but i'm kind of hesistant to do that, because then practically everythin would be hosted by thexyz
23:08 sapier1 it's ahrd to explain the way the code is written doesn't quite match my thinking patterns
23:08 hmmmm i use the Linux Kernel coding style (except for switch statements, i indent the cases)
23:08 VanessaE I understand - you don't want to put it all in one person's hands who may not always be arounf.
23:08 VanessaE around*
23:09 celeron55 it's good to spread around responsibilities and stuff like that
23:09 VanessaE yup
23:09 VanessaE (and spread the blame? ;-) )
23:10 celeron55 i need to figure out what's causing these complete lock-ups of the vps though
23:10 celeron55 this isn't really too acceptable
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23:12 aldobr sapier1 i can write code, just like when i asked pilzadam for a new machine in his mod and he said he wont do, i've done, even without never touching lua
23:12 jeffrash_nexus Hi guys.  Is there an mine test android client?
23:13 hmmmm lol^
23:13 hmmmm actually that's not too hard
23:13 hmmmm there's irrlicht for android
23:14 jeffrash_nexus What's irrlicht?
23:14 hmmmm the 3d engine we use
23:15 Kacey joined #minetest
23:15 sapier1 @aldobr I understand you I've been in same situation sometimes, I even like the idea of neuronal networks for ai, I just see how much work needs to be done to get this even next to working
23:16 jeffrash_nexus I see.
23:16 aldobr sapier1 i believe now that NN's are not the best solution
23:16 aldobr because the problem can be solved by simpler means
23:16 aldobr but i dont see a problem in discussing it
23:16 sapier1 you can do this completely on your own reinventing the wheel in some places .. or use evolutionary way by adding neuronal features step by step to already existing code
23:16 aldobr to exaustion
23:16 aldobr thats how things improve
23:16 aldobr discussing, without taking it personally
23:16 celeron55 site's up
23:17 aldobr without hidden weapons
23:17 STHGOM OldCoder : are you on?
23:17 VanessaE celeron55: no it ain't :-)
23:17 OldCoder Hi
23:17 sapier1 I'm not a friend of hiding something so believe me if I say I'm really considering it I do
23:17 OldCoder STHGOM, Yes
23:17 VanessaE greetz, OldCoder
23:18 OldCoder VanessaE, Hi!
23:18 STHGOM may i PM you 1 more time?
23:18 OldCoder Of course
23:18 aldobr sapier1 i am not directing this to you specifically
23:18 OldCoder Go ahead
23:19 sapier1 ok so plz stick back to the problem
23:19 aldobr sapier1
23:20 aldobr i believe the first thing for a mob
23:20 sapier1 in my opinion first step would be creating a movement generator using a neuronal network to make a mob stay on lets say "grass"
23:20 aldobr will be path finding
23:20 sapier1 that'd be even to complex for a first step
23:20 aldobr i was brainwashing about mob development before
23:20 aldobr i see a problem with path finding
23:20 VanessaE brainstormg.
23:20 VanessaE brainstorming*
23:21 aldobr yeah brainstorming
23:21 aldobr what happens if the mod wants to move from chunk A to chunk B
23:21 RealBadAngel and got brainwashed then ;)
23:21 sapier1 I do too but it's even difficult to ensure a mob stays on grass ;-)
23:21 VanessaE RealBadAngel: you're already brainwashed ;)
23:21 aldobr and there are not generated chunks in between ?
23:21 RealBadAngel hehe
23:21 aldobr or
23:21 aldobr if the mob requests a path
23:22 aldobr and someone willfully or not
23:22 aldobr changes something in the path
23:22 sapier1 plz ppl why do you switch to complex problems without having solved simple ones
23:22 VanessaE the path has to be re-computed every time the MOB moves from one node to another
23:22 aldobr i believe its a fundamental primitive that should be done one way or the other
23:23 aldobr i believe this will be pretty costly
23:23 sapier1 vanessaE it's even more compley as a mob's collision box is larger than a node therefore it may enter many nodes at once
23:23 VanessaE sapier1: just speaking generally.
23:23 aldobr sapier1 : keeping mob in grass -> if next node where i want to move to is not grass, turn around
23:24 sapier1 atm follow movement generator recalculates movement a soon as predicted time to next node has elapsed
23:24 sapier1 aldobr and what do you do if since last checking you've moved more than one node?
23:24 aldobr only move one node at a time ?
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23:25 VanessaE celeron55: it works now..
23:25 sapier1 you have to stick with the cpu time you get
23:25 aldobr is some time outside grass acceptable ?
23:25 sapier1 depends on what you're uppon
23:26 aldobr well
23:26 aldobr with a pathfinder
23:26 aldobr you can draw the full path before moving
23:26 aldobr just make everything that is not grass to be too costly
23:26 sapier1 no you can't as your path may change in minetest while you're moving
23:27 aldobr yes thats why i asked what to do
23:27 sapier1 you need to check by time if your path is still valid
23:28 aldobr im out of the mood to think about such complex issues
23:28 aldobr sorry
23:28 aldobr i want to help
23:28 aldobr but
23:28 hmmmm it's a doggy dog world out there...
23:28 hmmmm people like you are diamond dozen.
23:28 hmmmm we ought to take what you say with a grain assault.
23:28 VanessaE *groan*
23:29 sapier1 @aldobr I'm sorry I just can't make it less complex
23:29 hmmmm vanessa, don't take it for granite.
23:29 aldobr i believe planning before coding
23:30 aldobr i usually think the same thing over and over before writting a single line of code
23:30 mrdragons Measure twice, cut once
23:30 Kacey left #minetest
23:30 VanessaE I plan out the most coarse chunks of a project, but then I kinda muddle way through it from start to finish after that.
23:31 RealBadAngel best way to start is to write a function definition ;) at least you have to define whats needed by it :)
23:32 hmmmm it's easy to miss really important details if you don't do any code at all
23:32 VanessaE RealBadAngel: and then you decide "you know, this function can easily do X, so let me add parameter Y to the function call...)
23:32 VanessaE "
23:32 hmmmm the sort of details where you'll get stuck hard
23:33 aldobr i've written a whole language interpreter that way
23:33 aldobr jordan4 made a path finder for his mob
23:33 aldobr ops
23:33 sapier1 plz don't write a new language there are already enough ;-)
23:33 aldobr sorry wrong past
23:33 aldobr http://code.google.com/p/opentik/
23:33 moltenbot aldobr's link:
23:34 aldobr its a formalization of mikrotik language
23:34 aldobr in a proper parser
23:34 aldobr and virtual machine
23:34 aldobr i was trying to make a mikrotik clone
23:34 aldobr then figured theres no market for this
23:34 hmmmm pascal...
23:34 hmmmm for shame.
23:34 aldobr objectpascal
23:34 hmmmm delphi
23:34 aldobr freepascal
23:34 aldobr #fpc
23:34 RealBadAngel btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vaUXHeC5T8
23:34 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: Evolving neural networks - fish learning to gather food - YouTube
23:35 aldobr its like a breed between pascal and java
23:35 aldobr i've done the whole project in my mind
23:35 aldobr before writing a single line of code
23:35 aldobr at least the core interpreter
23:35 kaeza1 how about we make a Lua mod that calls the Python interpreter that calls the XML parser to load path information from an XML file? (xzzibit.jpg)
23:35 kaeza1 (expecting flame war)
23:35 hmmmm inception
23:35 jin_xi needs moar javascript
23:35 aldobr kaeza1 you need to hold some meetings
23:36 aldobr with the managing personell
23:36 aldobr so they will write the specification of the code
23:36 VanessaE kaeza1: where the XML describes a set of LOGO commands which, when executes, slowly draw out the text for the actual path in move-based RPG style? :-)
23:36 VanessaE executed*
23:36 aldobr they will start with a simple idea
23:37 aldobr and make it bullet proof, amphibious etc
23:37 aldobr then pass to programmers (us)
23:37 aldobr to make it happen
23:37 aldobr (how software writting usually happens in brazil)
23:37 NakedFury under whip treatment
23:38 kaeza1 aldobr: I will have to decline your offer
23:38 RealBadAngel why just us programmers?
23:38 kaeza1 I have too much headaches right now with all my projects
23:38 RealBadAngel there are many more countries having decent programmers
23:41 hmmmm he used it in the sense of the 1st person accusitive case
23:41 hmmmm not the united states
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23:44 berome joined #minetest
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23:46 berome joined #minetest
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23:55 aldobr joined #minetest
23:56 kaeza wb aldobr
23:57 aldobr hi
23:59 STHGOM HI

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