Time Nick Message 00:04 NakedFury ok I wanted to help you but the plotz websites print option wont work because I dont have admin permission in this computer to save the file 00:05 marktraceur I wouldn't have accepted it anyway 02:56 nonporous anyone know what the node parameter is_ground_content does? 03:00 Mad solid? 03:00 Mad set it false. see if you can fall throught 03:00 Mad through* 03:05 nonporous i think the parameter "walkable" is for being able to walk thru 03:05 nonporous but i'll see what happens if i set it false 03:09 nonporous i don't see the effect of setting is_ground_content to false 04:11 noob_ is anyone on? 04:11 noob_ i have a question about minetest 04:14 noob_ what is a vanilla client 05:51 marktraceur noob_: Your mom is a vanilla client. Seriously, she just never asks for the weird stuff. It concerns me. 05:57 VanessaE heh 06:06 nonporous i wonder if someone can help me with this 06:06 nonporous if i register a node with some properties 06:06 nonporous how do i get those properties out later? 06:07 nonporous it seems that even if i register a node with a name, description, drawtype, etc. 06:07 nonporous later on the only things i've really been able to access are node.name, node.param1, and node.param2 06:07 nonporous (and probably meta data but i haven't tried yet) 06:07 nonporous node.drawtype for example returns an error 06:08 nonporous why? 06:08 marktraceur nonporous: registered_nodes[nodename] should give you something, not sure if it's more than [name, param1, param2] 06:08 nonporous (sorry, i meant returns nil) 06:08 nonporous WHY? 06:08 nonporous hmmm 06:08 marktraceur nonporous: I don't know why, sorry 06:08 marktraceur I think I saw something....hold on 06:09 nonporous the thing is i'm not getting the node from minetest.registered_nodes, i'm getting the node from a callback registration function 06:10 nonporous (in particular the one that is called whenever a node is punched) 06:10 marktraceur nonporous: Well, minetest.registered_nodes[node.name] should give you the rest 06:10 nonporous oh i see what you mean! 06:10 marktraceur nonporous: Search for "get_nodedef_field" in doc/lua_api.txt 06:10 nonporous ok so there's two data structures at play here 06:10 marktraceur It's an example function, mighty helpful I'd say 06:10 marktraceur Right 06:11 marktraceur It's silly to pass around huge tables when three properties will do for most things 06:11 nonporous yes i see 06:11 nonporous thanks, that example is just what i needed! 06:11 marktraceur A lot of modders will write callbacks like "ARE THIS MAI SOOPER COOL NODE? THEN _MAKE IT T3H BIGGER_" 06:11 marktraceur They don't even need the params 06:12 nonporous lol 06:12 marktraceur No doubt celeron assumed that people would have such stupidity, and accounted for it 06:13 nonporous right 06:23 nonporous wait a second why did you say they don't even need the params 06:23 nonporous i think they do need the params 06:24 nonporous i think there are two data structures at play: we could call them registered nodes and nodes 06:24 nonporous a node is a particular instance of a block in the world 06:24 nonporous so if it has a fluid for example, the params are important because they indicate the fluid level 06:25 nonporous a corresponding registered node on the other hand is an object that contains attributes common to all instances of nodes of that type 06:25 nonporous think i'm on the right track? 07:12 cy1 yay the sinusoidal growth algorithm works great 07:12 cy1 except for generated content, bleh. but that's terrible p. universally 07:12 cy1 anyone want to come on my world? :D 07:12 * marktraceur is too busy with spheroids 07:14 brobostigon good morning everyone. 07:14 nonporous its 3 AM, but good morning i guess 07:15 nonporous meta data was really done intelligently 07:15 marktraceur nonporous: Consider that this is an interational communication medium :) 07:15 marktraceur international* 07:15 nonporous apparently if you just start manipulating pieces of metadata that don't exist 07:15 nonporous marktraceur: i recognize that lol, i'm just pointing out my own timezone 07:16 marktraceur nonporous: Also, Hawaii? 07:16 marktraceur Or Russia? 07:16 nonporous marktraceur: US eastern 07:16 cy1 maybe I'll ask when it isn't midnight on the west coast... 07:16 marktraceur Oh, wrong way :P 07:16 nonporous yea 07:16 nonporous anyway 07:16 nonporous if you just start manipulating pieces of metadata that don't exist 07:16 nonporous it will create it for that node 07:17 nonporous so you can just willy nilly invent meta data as you go for any block! 07:19 nonporous i freaking love this game more for everything i learn 07:20 marktraceur nonporous: Glad to hear it! :) 07:24 * darkrose notices talk of metadata, curtsies while tipping a non-existant hat 07:30 emspri Bad_Command i have a gameboom account. 07:30 emspri what do i have to do now ?? 07:41 brobostigon emspri: good morning, ok, i got your highlight, i have another busy day, so will do so, when i can. 07:54 * marktraceur can no longer do spheres 07:54 marktraceur Good night 07:58 nonporous night 08:09 * vicscandl waves... 08:20 * nonporous waves back 08:34 nonporous hmm all the methods of an "InvRef" have something called "listname" as an argument 08:34 nonporous i can't figure out what listname is supposed to be 08:45 darkrose nonporous: inventories contain list's of item stacks, for a chest the name of the list is 'main' for instance 08:45 nonporous ah so that's what it is 08:46 nonporous what was it for a player inventory 08:46 nonporous something like "current"? 08:46 nonporous oh nope it's also main 08:46 nonporous darkrose: ok thanks! 08:47 darkrose yep, np :) 08:55 nonporous weird... when i use remove_item on a player inventory, it only works if the item is not selected 08:56 nonporous (i.e. not in the player's hand) 08:59 nonporous could this be a minetest glitch? or the item stack in the player's hand actually not a part of the "main" list? 09:07 Ririshi Hey 09:12 jahmke brobostigon are there other people on your server?? 09:14 emspri brobostigon are there actualy other people on ur server ??? 09:17 nonporous Is there a way to edit the attributes of a registered node after it has already been registered? 09:18 darkrose no, you can get them then edit, then register a new node type though 09:22 nonporous hmm, that wouldn't do 09:22 nonporous i wonder if there's an alternative methdo 09:22 darkrose no 09:22 nonporous basically i'd need to edit the attribute "on_destruct" of every node type 09:23 nonporous there must be some way to choose what happens when a player destroys a node in general 09:24 darkrose minetest.register_on_dignode() 09:25 nonporous perfect! thank you 09:25 nonporous "global callback functions" 09:25 nonporous that's what i was looking for 09:26 nonporous the comment says it's depracated and refers me back to on_destruct 09:27 nonporous does that mean it's going to be removed? :( 09:28 Calinou it's on_destruct and on_construct now 09:29 darkrose it's not deprecated, it's gonna stay 09:32 Ririshi|AFK Hey guys 09:32 Ririshi oops. 09:34 nonporous glad to hear that 09:34 nonporous are you a developer darkrose? 09:35 darkrose isn't everyone? 09:35 Ririshi Sorry I'm testing around a bit. 09:36 Ririshi yay it works 09:36 Ririshi sorry XD 09:36 Ririshi I got a new 09:36 Ririshi IRC client. 09:37 nonporous i mean like a core code developer, not just a modder 09:37 nonporous you seem to... know things 09:38 darkrose yeah, I did a bit of work on the lua api in the latest release 09:38 nonporous cool 09:39 nonporous thanks for your work, i just started learning the modding api today and i'm loving it more every hour 09:39 darkrose cool :) 09:46 jahmke Does anyone know a popular server? 09:49 nonporous I think I need a global version of on_destruct, rather than a global version of after_destruct 09:50 nonporous So I need something like minetest.register_on_dignode(), except I want the function called *before* the node is destroyed 09:50 nonporous because i need to access the node's metadata, and that is lost by the time the node is destroyed 09:51 darkrose try register_on_punchnode() 09:51 darkrose it's called when it's first hit, but not completely dug 09:53 nonporous i've been using that one for other things, but I need something for complete digging 09:53 nonporous thanks though 09:54 Calinou isn't everyone? 09:54 Calinou no *_* 09:54 Calinou landmine isn't a developer :P 09:54 Calinou I got a new 09:54 Calinou IRC client. 09:54 Calinou > don't use enter as punctuation 09:54 Calinou > away nicks are bad mkay? Ririshi|AFK was kicked for being an away nick assclown. 09:54 Calinou > xchat > all clients 09:55 nonporous someone is very opinionated lol 09:56 nonporous darkrose: i may just have to patch a copy of the default mod, adding an on_destruct for each block I care about :/ 09:56 darkrose nonporous: you could use meta:to_table() in on_punchnode, store the table, then look it up on_dignode 09:56 Calinou :} 09:56 nonporous darkrose: woah great idea thanks! 09:57 nonporous darkrose: i should've thought of that 10:01 cornernote hi 10:01 cornernote anyone got a server i can join onto ? 10:02 cornernote we have me and my 2 kids here that are keen to build =) 10:05 Calinou cornernote, 95% of servers require application to build 10:05 Calinou open servers are almost always victims of griefing 10:05 Calinou cornernote, see the "servers" forum of minetest forum 10:05 cornernote what do you mean "application to build" ? 10:06 cornernote i tried to connect to them all, none worked 10:06 Calinou some servers are on 0.4, some on 0.3 10:06 Calinou not all of them are up; it's not because they have a topic they're up 10:07 Calinou application to build: you have to set a password on the server, THEN request build rights by posting in the server thread. 10:07 Calinou aka: "graylist" 10:11 Calinou http://servers.minetest.ru/ 10:11 Calinou > some servers need to be removed 10:11 Calinou servers with uptime < 75% should not be shown in the list 10:14 cornernote cool, thanks! 10:27 emspri does someone know a popular server ??? 10:31 Calinou redcrab.suret.net port 30401 10:31 Calinou latest nightly 10:33 [12368] hi 10:42 Calinou hi spammer name 10:42 Calinou hi VanessaE 10:43 emspri Calinou are there people on that server ?? 10:43 Calinou yes 10:43 Calinou often 10:43 Calinou you must request permission to build 10:43 Calinou and you can ask redcrab to protect areas 10:44 emspri redcrab can i have interact privs ?? 10:44 Calinou http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1705 10:44 Calinou -_- 10:45 Calinou emspri 10:45 Calinou 1) connect to the server 10:45 Calinou 2) set a non-guessable password 10:45 Calinou 3) ask on the forum, it is better 10:45 emspri ok 11:04 nonporous Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main" 11:10 emspri ah im stuck on the pun stop bots question 11:11 emspri what is the current stable version of minetest 11:18 brobostigon emspri: what do you mean? 11:21 emspri im on the forums and i want to send a reply but then i get the pun stop bots question and that never ends 11:21 Calinou do it several times 11:21 Calinou stable version: 0.3.1 11:21 Calinou developer: celeron55 11:21 emspri thanks 11:22 emspri how can i see if redcrab is here ?? 11:24 cornernote an ingame recipe wiki would be so cool 11:24 emspri yeah 11:24 cornernote its so hard to keep track of all the mods/recipies 11:27 cornernote im not very familiar with lua/c .. but i can code a little... where would i start if i wanted to make something like that ? 11:28 cornernote it could work with just a txt interface to start... you type /recipe [some_item] .. and looks up the recipe and outputs it to the chat 11:28 cornernote sec, going to find/read some similar mods 11:29 cornernote sethome mod shows me how to do the command input/output 11:32 cornernote http://pastebin.com/HwDAsDWd 11:33 cornernote where can i see mintest source code ? 11:35 cornernote found it here.. https://github.com/celeron55/minetest 11:35 cornernote i'm looking for the code for the /give command 11:37 cisoun wait for it 11:38 cisoun https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/default/init.lua#L1839 11:38 cisoun here. 11:39 cornernote sweet, thanks 11:45 cornernote when loading the item, there is a check like this... "if itemstack:is_empty then" ... what does is_empty mean ? 11:46 darkrose checks to see if your head is empty, in your case, returning true 11:47 Calinou lol 11:47 cornernote and now i have the item loaded, how do i go about finding it's recipe ? (lol, the hard part) 11:47 cisoun I think, when your inventory is full, you cannot get a new item. 11:47 Calinou ^ 11:47 cornernote ahh, ok i dont need that then 11:48 cornernote so i have this so far 11:48 cornernote http://pastebin.com/gbuNjaYR 11:48 cornernote i can say /recipe XXX .. and it says "so you want the recipe for XXX hey?" .. where XXX is a valid item 11:49 Calinou cornernote, the harder part is to _tell_ the user the _actual_ crafting recipe 11:49 Calinou like "X = wood O = sticks" then does some ascii art 11:50 Calinou probably impossible 11:51 cornernote i'll just call it default:wood 11:51 cornernote output like this... 11:51 Calinou think of the end user 11:51 cornernote 1=default:wood, 2=default:wood, 3=default:wood, 4=empty, 5=default:stick 11:51 cornernote i am the end user! =) 11:52 cornernote output can be better in a later version, some kind of GUI would be great 11:52 Calinou noone will understand that 11:52 Calinou popping up a GUI, would, yes, be very nice 11:52 cornernote but v0.1alpha will be easier to code for me with text 11:53 cornernote and its only for me 11:53 cornernote and i will understand the output 11:53 cornernote once i have that, i'll try to make a gui .. but i have no idea how to start with that 11:54 cornernote so, any tips on how i can get the recipe in the lua file ? 11:55 Calinou no 11:55 * Calinou isn't an expert lua coder 11:56 cornernote do you know where the class for blocks is defined ? 11:56 cornernote maybe i can stumble through the api 11:58 cisoun cornernote: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt 11:58 cisoun did you check this file ? 12:01 cornernote was just reading that =) 12:01 cornernote i dont think it will help, but it may lead me on the right path 12:01 cornernote well, it will help, but it wont tell me the magic answer =) 12:03 * Calinou shall continue the french translation of the lua API 12:05 lokke hello world 12:06 lokke just a question.. how do i play testmine in singlieplayer? 12:07 cisoun Just launch the game, type your name and leave the address blank then "Start Game" 12:08 cisoun type "/grant singleplayer all" during the game if you want to have all grants in singleplayer. 12:12 lokke thanks ;) 12:13 cornernote i think the problem may be that there may be more than one way to craft any one item 12:14 cornernote additionally, there are several crafting methods (craft/cook/etc) 12:21 Calinou ligne 450! :D 12:22 Calinou lokke, it's minetest not testmine 12:22 Calinou are you playing 0.3.1 or the 0.4 dev version? 12:22 cornernote i see from creative_inventory how i can kinda do a gui, but still stuck on how to get the recipe 12:23 Calinou creative mode sucks :P 12:25 brobostigon wow, inside 24hours, my minetest server has doubled in ram usage. 12:26 Anelisa Coucou ! :) 12:27 jahmke bonjour XD 12:32 brobostigon hmm, ram is tight now, :( 12:34 brobostigon there must be a solution, or it could go tits up. 12:36 brobostigon ok, restarting the server solved the issue. 12:37 brobostigon freed up 38% of the ram, uses 2% now. 12:44 cornernote what does this mean: TextureSource::buildMainAtlas(): Atlas is full, not adding more textures 12:45 Calinou hi Anelisa 12:45 Calinou cornernote, texture atlas is full. 12:45 Anelisa Calinou, je trouve pas le dossier pour les mods !!! ;'( 12:45 Calinou a texture atlas is a large texture created by the engine to speed things up 12:45 Calinou you can disable it if it causes graphic glitches 12:46 Calinou Anelisa, sur une version packagée sur linux: 12:46 Calinou ~/.minetest/mods/minetest 12:47 Calinou (ctrl+L dans nautilus pour y accéder, tape ce chemin) 12:47 Calinou ou ctrl+H pour montrer les dossiers cachés 12:47 Anelisa oups 12:47 Anelisa une gaff 12:48 Anelisa #minetest 12:52 brobostigon emspri: did my pub get lava'd again ? 12:53 Calinou http://paste.ubuntu.com/1086131/ 12:53 Calinou Anelisa, ^ 12:53 Calinou AndrewPH, oh hi :3 12:54 * brobostigon is alittle frustrated. 12:58 Anelisa2 re 12:58 Anelisa2 je suis Anelisa... 12:58 Calinou on sait 12:58 Calinou /nick Anelisa 12:58 Anelisa merci 12:59 Anelisa ~/.minetest/mods/minetest 12:59 Anelisa (ctrl+L dans nautilus pour y accéder, tape ce chemin) 12:59 Anelisa ou ctrl+H pour montrer les dossiers cachés dans le terminal ? 12:59 Calinou non, dans nautilus 12:59 Calinou > gestionnaire de fichiers ^^ 12:59 Anelisa ok je regarde 12:59 Calinou (celui par défaut d'ubuntu) 13:00 Anelisa ok 13:00 Anelisa ben il est pas installé... u_u 13:00 Anelisa ah si 13:01 Calinou ^^ 13:02 Anelisa quelle bête suis-je ?! Lol, c'est bon merci 13:02 Calinou de rien 13:02 cornernote can i make the atlas bigger ? 13:02 cornernote is it cos i have too many mods ? 13:03 Calinou no, you can't 13:03 Calinou just ignore the erorr 13:03 Calinou error* 13:03 cornernote ok 13:03 nonporous Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main" 13:04 cornernote if i am in a box, i can use set_stack() to put something into one of the box fields... how do i remove something from a field ? 13:04 Calinou "box" > chest 13:04 Calinou don't name them boxes :x 13:05 cornernote an "inventory" 13:06 cornernote =) 13:06 Anelisa comment je fait pour être admin en solo et que y'a plus de monstres ? 13:08 Calinou plus de monstres dans la 0.4 13:08 Calinou tu es déjà admin en solo, mais pour voler, tape: 13:08 Calinou /grant singleplayer all 13:09 Calinou si tu as démarré ta partie solo depuis le menu "advanced", tape: 13:09 Calinou /grant ton_pseudo all 13:09 Calinou (remplace ton_pseudo évidemment) 13:13 Anelisa les mods marchent pas ! ;'( 13:13 Anelisa plus de monstres dans la 0.4 plus du tout ?! :O 13:22 Calinou plus du tout pour le moment 13:22 Calinou ils seront rajoutés avant la sortie d'une version stable 13:25 Anelisa ah.. ouinn 13:26 Anelisa La version 0.4 est encore en modifications ? 13:26 Calinou oui, en développement 13:28 Anelisa >__< 13:28 Anelisa c'est quoi les commandes pour me donner par ex 99 de cobble ou quoi ? 13:39 cisoun /giveme default:cobble 99 je crois 13:42 Anelisa ok 13:42 Anelisa merci 13:43 Anelisa cannot give an unknown item 13:43 Anelisa u_u 13:44 Calinou Anelisa, /giveme cobble 99 13:44 Calinou plus court et ça marche 13:45 Anelisa lol 13:45 Calinou pour un stack presque infini: /giveme cobble -1 13:47 Anelisa ok merci ! :) 13:50 Anelisa maintenant j'ai une vraie ville ! lol 13:57 Anelisa pour le coal comment je fait ? 13:57 Calinou /giveme lump_of_coal quantité 13:57 Calinou en remplaçant quantité par la quantité que tu veux ^^ 13:59 Anelisa et les bâtons (stick) x) ^^ 14:14 Anelisa je suis la plus riche de mon village !! héhé (normal y'a que moi. 14:14 Anelisa )) 14:15 brobostigon http://taylorworld.me.uk/wiki/doku.php/todo 14:26 cornernote hi all, i am making my 1st mod... its an info sign that will (eventually) show you the recipe to make any ingame item... i have it to the point where i can make a sign, open the sign (like a chest), move stuff around, etc... 14:27 cornernote looking really nice so far... now all i need is to get the code to find the input items for a recipe 14:30 cornernote whats the difference between a node and a craftitem ? 14:43 brobostigon does that wiki page work fine? 14:46 cornernote works for me 14:46 brobostigon good, thank you. 14:50 cornernote ok, after reading a bit of source code, i think you cannot tell how to craft an item 14:50 cornernote there is no method to list all the crafts 14:51 cornernote plus, even if there were... there may be multiple ways to make an item 14:51 cornernote thats a real shame, an ingame build helper would have been really nice 14:57 cornernote hi VanessaE, wondering if you might have a minute to help me with a mod i am trying to make ? 14:58 VanessaE I can try but I dunno how much help I'll be, I literally just got out of bed :-) 14:58 VanessaE *rubs eyes* 14:58 cornernote basically i want to have a mod that shows the recipe for a given item 14:58 cornernote i have done the interface, etc... i just dont know how i can see a list of registered recipies 14:59 cornernote i need that so i can iterate over them to find which one makes the requested item 14:59 VanessaE oh you've got me there - that goes beyond anything I've done so far 14:59 cornernote dang 14:59 VanessaE (and we DO need a mod like this, btw - I' 14:59 VanessaE m glad you're working on it!) 14:59 cornernote its my 1st mod 15:00 cornernote i have it working, except it cant tell you a recipe... would you like to see it ? 15:01 VanessaE I'll pass for now - I'm too bleary right now to understand a "Hello World" program, much less something useful ;-) 15:01 cornernote i might ask in the forums, see if anyone has any ideas 15:05 VanessaE yeah, better to do that - you'll get a better answer that way 15:06 darkrose well, either way the answer will be "it can't be done with the current api" 15:15 jordach sup 15:15 Anelisa re 15:17 cornernote darkrose, ok thats what i thought 15:17 cornernote dang :( 15:18 cornernote i made a forum post anyway 15:18 cornernote http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=30726 15:18 cornernote perhaps 0.5 will allow it =) 15:19 cornernote the other way i can do it (kinda messy) is by parsing the other LUA files 15:19 VanessaE sounds like a good opportunity for someone to make a patch :-) 15:19 cornernote do a regex to pull out all the register_craft function calls 15:20 VanessaE yeah but how do you get a list of lua files to read in the first place? 15:20 cornernote theres no function to list files in a folder ? 15:20 VanessaE I mean, they're not exactly all stored in the same place 15:20 cornernote just recurcively find *.lua in the nietest folder 15:21 cornernote http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5303174/get-list-of-directory-in-a-lua 15:21 VanessaE you have to include run-in-place installs, system installs, and both linux and windows variants 15:21 cornernote yeah, its messy 15:22 Calinou do a regex to pull out all the register_craft function calls 15:22 Calinou ;8; 15:22 Calinou ;_;* 15:22 Calinou DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE A SIMPLE LUA MOD 15:22 Calinou TALKS ABOUT REGEXES 15:22 Calinou MEME! 15:22 cornernote i know regex, i dont know lua 15:22 cornernote and i did make a simple mod 15:22 cornernote i just cant get a list of the crafts, mostly because there is no api for it =) 15:25 cornernote if i can regex the files, i will be left with a string like this.... minetest.register_craft({...}) then i make it a string like this {...} 15:25 Calinou inb4 archlinux 15:25 cornernote then once i have that, i can just define all of them in a local array 15:26 cornernote not too complex, but still messy 15:26 VanessaE the problem is getting the list of all lua files from all directories the current install of minetest is compiled to scan for 15:27 VanessaE e.g. /usr/local/share or /usr/share or ~/.minetest/mods/minetest or whatever run-in-place versions use, or whatever windows uses :-) 15:27 cornernote what about if the mod doesnt support external folders... i think it will still be useful 15:27 Calinou lol jordach 15:27 Calinou :{ 15:27 jordach double click much 15:27 cornernote or, you can put a list of folders that contain mods into an ini file 15:27 cornernote something like that 15:28 VanessaE cornernote: no, that won't work - such a mod needs to be transparent. remember your audience :-) 15:28 VanessaE (some of these people can't even figure out how to *install* a mod, must less build a list of them) 15:28 VanessaE s/must/much/ 15:28 cornernote audience is the server admin... they should know where they put mods, right ? 15:29 VanessaE everyone's their own server admin also, since the game runs in single-player mode as well 15:30 cornernote single players should have put all their mods into mods/minetest .. which a place my mod will look by default 15:30 VanessaE right, but what about the system-wide stuff? 15:30 VanessaE a number of the game's default items are in fact mods 15:31 cornernote builtin\*.lua 15:31 VanessaE no 15:31 cornernote where do they live ? 15:31 cornernote games\minimal\mods ? 15:31 VanessaE on my box, one location is /usr/local/share/minetest/games/minetest_game/mods/*/*.lua 15:32 Anelisa re 15:32 Anelisa Calinou les mods marchent pas !! 15:32 cornernote if i scan minetest/* recursive it will find those 15:32 Calinou message d'erreur? 15:32 Anelisa nan rien 15:32 VanessaE yes, that would work... now what about windows? :-) 15:32 Calinou FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCK 15:32 Calinou access violation on chat console open 15:32 Calinou this is very rare usually 15:33 VanessaE Calinou: F10 crash? 15:33 Calinou F8 for me 15:33 VanessaE bah 15:33 Calinou I said access violation not segfault 15:33 Calinou this issue is much more common on linux than on windows 15:33 VanessaE this is why it bugs me so much that c55 took off 15:33 VanessaE this is a bad bug. 15:33 VanessaE and makes it impossible to play the game on a high-chat-activity server 15:33 cornernote VanessaE, isnt it the same folder path on windows ? 15:34 VanessaE cornernote: no 15:34 VanessaE cornernote: on windows it could be pretty much anywhere 15:34 NakedFury I have windows tell me 15:34 VanessaE (linux too, but usually /usr/share or /usr/local/share ) 15:35 cornernote then the person installing mods into c:\anywhere instead of minetest\* wont see the mods outside of minetest\* ... unless they add the paths to the mod ini file 15:35 VanessaE so what you have to do is execute some function that gives you the parent directory of your minetest install, and another that returns your minetest user config path, and scan those 15:35 Calinou you can get the modpath cornernote 15:35 Calinou minetest.get_modpath() iirc 15:35 Calinou see the doc 15:37 VanessaE s/doc/the travesty that is the minetest API/ 15:37 VanessaE :-) 15:37 cornernote yeah, i read through that... its not so bad VanessaE 15:37 jordach VanessaE, WANTING 77 WOOL? 15:38 cornernote a little html would brighten it up a little =) 15:38 darkrose eww 15:38 jordach darkrose, its going to use the unified dyes mod 15:38 VanessaE cornernote: I've read through it too...and it's a fucking mess 15:38 jordach WITH DEPENDS>TXT 15:39 VanessaE jordach: you switch to unified dyes and I'll make more textures for my photorealistic pack :-) 15:39 jordach LOOKS LIKE 77 then 15:39 VanessaE but as I recall you're pretty dead-set on not using it (depends!!!!!!!!) so fuck it :) 15:40 VanessaE plus you're now competing with bas080, who wants to do a cotton mod of a similar style as wool, and also with unifieddyes for the colors :-) 15:42 NakedFury where does the cotton come from? 15:42 VanessaE the cotton flower from the flowers mod. 15:42 NakedFury ok 15:42 marktraceur VanessaE: I put my mientest install in /dev/null now I cant find it what I do!?!?!??!??! 15:43 VanessaE marktraceur: hahahah 15:43 Calinou see the the travesty that is the minetest API 15:43 Calinou THE THE 15:43 cornernote restore using rm / -rf 15:43 VanessaE :P 15:43 Calinou y u put arguments after? 15:44 cornernote bad habbit 15:44 jordach oh and btw: wool will make use of cotton flowers instead of my crappy one 15:44 cornernote fails on bsd i think 15:44 marktraceur cornernote: Thanks, I'll one day give you huge percentages to transfer money out of my deceased father's royal treasury in a rebelling country 15:44 jordach marktraceur, if thats a film ref. get out 15:44 cornernote and a penis enlargment ? 15:44 jordach HA! 15:45 marktraceur jordach: No, it's a Nigerian scammer reference 15:45 Calinou BSD sucks 15:45 jordach mark, FUUUUUUU--- 15:45 cornernote bsd has its place, but not on my servers =) 15:45 marktraceur cornernote: No, that's the good stuff. You'd have to like, save my cat's life 15:46 marktraceur I'll let you know when I get a cat and it's in danger 15:46 cornernote do you think if i refresh my forum post many times it will increase the chance someone will reply ? 15:46 Calinou no 15:46 jordach cornernote, did you check the subscribe checkbox when making the topic 15:46 Calinou bumping is a bad habit, too 15:47 marktraceur cornernote: Increased resolution of data, but bigger chance the server will go down. I'd say it's about even. 15:47 cornernote yes, im subscribed.. just impatient =) .. i REALLY want an ingame craft viewer 15:47 Anelisa Calinou je fait comment ?? 15:47 Calinou this is where you should stop being lazy and use C++ instead, cornernote 15:47 Calinou Anelisa, pour faire quoi? 15:47 Anelisa ben les mods 15:47 Anelisa ... 15:48 cornernote extend the api ? 15:48 Calinou Anelisa, ah 15:48 marktraceur cornernote: If you can make something general that allows for creating windows, that'd be awesome :) 15:48 cornernote but, lol, im running on windows and i dont know how to compile 15:48 Calinou Anelisa, tu as démarré le jeu "minetest_game", pas "minimal"? 15:48 NakedFury compiling on windows is a bitch 15:48 Anelisa oui 15:48 jordach OH YES 15:48 Calinou +1 15:48 jordach I FRICKIN IS 15:48 Anelisa minetest__game 15:48 Calinou cornernote, thought you were on harshlinux or such 15:48 Calinou :/ 15:48 marktraceur jordach: Sticky shift key today? 15:49 cornernote i'll have to setup my linux box and have a twiddle... dont know that i can make a window viewer tho... 15:49 NakedFury god microsoft sucks, you would have thought they would have improved compiling by now 15:49 jordach Calinou, when will the jokes at theyre expense stop? 15:49 Calinou "If your minetest is a system-wide installed version on Linux your folder is something like (create if needed): 15:49 Calinou ~/.minetest/mods/minetest/" 15:49 Calinou NakedFury, they do, but you're still forced to buy their OS sadly 15:49 Calinou (and for drivers too, /me points at nvidia) 15:49 VanessaE back 15:49 Calinou kcab 15:49 jordach marktraceur, shift key is fine: just raging like normal 15:51 cornernote is there any way to override/extend the minetest.register_craft method ? 15:51 Anelisa je les ai mis dedans 15:51 marktraceur cornernote: I guess you could override it, but I wouldn't suggest that 15:51 VanessaE there's nothing wrong with bumping a thread if you're adding something useful to it (like status updates) 15:52 Calinou Anelisa, ta structure ressemble bien à: ~/.minetest/mods/minetest/moreblocks/init.lua par exemple? 15:52 Anelisa oui 15:52 cornernote marktraceur - in lua, without having to re-compile ? 15:52 marktraceur cornernote: Yep 15:52 cornernote oh oh, now im excited 15:52 marktraceur minetest.register_craft = function (arguments) end 15:52 cornernote why wouldn't you recommend it ? 15:52 marktraceur (empty function) 15:53 cornernote how do i get that to happen before any other mod loads ? 15:53 marktraceur cornernote: Because you'd need to back up the original, then re-instantiate it when you're done 15:53 marktraceur Ha, not possible 15:53 cornernote name my mod aaa ? 15:53 marktraceur (without c++) 15:53 Calinou name it bbb 15:53 cornernote ok, then that seems like not an option 15:53 marktraceur cornernote: I think aaa might still load last, but I'm not totally sure how the order goes 15:54 cornernote another option is to have "supported" mods... so every mod has to have the minetest.register_craft calls copied to a similar method 15:55 marktraceur cornernote: Right. So make a library, basically, and have mod authors depend on it 15:55 * marktraceur wonders why this doesn't happen more often 15:55 Anelisa ... 15:55 cornernote they dont have to depend on it, but they can "hook into it" 15:55 marktraceur Perhaps because people show no interest in package management 15:55 cornernote eg, not a dependancy, more of an option 15:56 marktraceur cornernote: No, because if you don't depend on it, it might load later 15:56 cornernote ahh, ok and i need to have my.register_craft function definition loaded before they call it 15:56 marktraceur Yes. 15:57 cornernote it doesnt load all the files, then exec.. ? 15:57 marktraceur And dependencies will always load first :) 15:57 marktraceur No, of course not 15:57 cornernote sorry, im a php coder 15:57 cornernote so im used to all kinds of things that arent "normal" in most languages 15:58 cornernote this works just fine for me: myrun(); function myrun(){ echo 'hello world'; } =) 15:58 marktraceur cornernote: :) I'm getting used to PHP, it's an interesting language 15:58 jordach because its a lazy language 15:58 darkrose s/interesting/insane/ 15:59 marktraceur darkrose: Are insane people not sometimes interesting? :) 15:59 cornernote if you havent used it, yiiframework - awesome FW for php 15:59 marktraceur cornernote: I have the ultimate framework, MediaWiki 16:01 cornernote marktraceur, if the other mod uses depends, and mine loads 1st... then i can override minetest.register_craft ... right ? 16:01 cornernote no need for my.register_craft() 16:02 marktraceur cornernote: Yes, but you'd need to put it back or risk breaking everything 16:02 cornernote i dont think i can... theres no "after depends" 16:02 marktraceur (or at least, you could put in a call to the original function) 16:02 cornernote yes, i will do that =) 16:03 marktraceur It would be so much better to *not* override main functions, though 16:03 cornernote how do i call the original function ? 16:03 cornernote minetest.register_craft = function (options) minetest.register_craft(options) end 16:04 cornernote wouldnt that just make an infinite loop ? 16:04 marktraceur Yes 16:04 marktraceur cornernote: local mtrc_back = minetest.register_craft 16:04 marktraceur Then call mtrc_back inside of your function 16:06 Anelisa Calinou ?? 16:07 cornernote sweet!, it works 16:17 cornernote sorry for dumb lua questions... if i have an array like this option={myvar='test123'} .. how do i refer to the value of myvar ? option['myvar'], option:myvar, ? 16:18 Calinou IMPORT ESSAY 16:18 jordach cornernote, /join #minetest-mods 16:19 cornernote thanks 16:19 Anelisa CALINOU, je fait comment pour faire un serveur ?? 16:19 Calinou -_- 16:20 Calinou > pour faire un serveur public, faut ouvrir des ports 16:20 Calinou si tu ne sais pas ouvrir des ports, passe ton chemin 16:20 Calinou je ne connais pas ton routeur 16:23 Anelisa xD 16:23 Anelisa la tronche ! xDD 16:25 Anelisa pourquoi c'est pas plus simple ? 16:40 Calinou parce que 16:40 Calinou sinon tout le monde pourrait se connecter à la machine 16:40 Calinou c'est pour ça qu'il faut ouvrir des ports 16:40 Calinou à ta machine* 16:45 Anelisa u_u 16:50 Anelisa *un petit vent* 16:55 VanessaE jordach: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/colors.txt 16:55 VanessaE jordach: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/listcolors.sh 17:06 Anelisa Calinou regarde ça : http://hpics.li/3940ce5 17:06 Anelisa Tu en penses quoi , 17:06 Anelisa ?? 17:10 Calinou et? 17:12 Anelisa tu en penses quoi ? (je l'ai fait) 17:13 Anelisa et ça : http://hpics.li/f7dbe35 ? lol 17:16 Calinou mouais, sympa ^^ 17:16 * Calinou n'est pas très "anime" 17:16 Anelisa x) 17:21 marktraceur New favorite thing: Spheres 17:21 Anelisa mais j'ai que çapour la plupart de mes commandes.. ^^ 17:22 marktraceur A bitch to make, but damned if they don't look awesome when you're done 17:22 Anelisa http://hpics.li/f4bd440 < by me 17:32 Anelisa ... 17:33 Calinou point point point 17:35 Anelisa lol 17:35 Calinou olo 17:35 Anelisa si tu veux commander une signa's, avatar, ou header, dit je suis à disposition ! :) 17:35 jordach ,.,//z,/,/z.z/,/z.,/.,,.z,./,/\\\,/\,/,\//\,/.\,\.,\/,\,/,\,.\/,\/\,/,\/,\/.,./\,./\,,\.,.\/.\/.,\/,\/.,/.\,/.\,/,\,.\,,\/ Calinou try that 17:36 * Calinou a déjà son avatar, voir les forums 17:36 marktraceur Oh god why 17:36 * Anelisa sais déjà mais une signa's serait bien, nan ? /SORT/ 17:36 Calinou you don't say, marktraceur? 17:36 * Calinou a déjà sa signature, voir les forums 17:36 marktraceur Calinou: The above gibberish was shocking 17:38 * Anelisa sais mais si les BBCodes seraient activés on aurait pu les mettre dans un spoiler, nan ? x) 17:40 NakedFury is it possible to have some items that can only be crafted using a special table or workstation? 17:42 Calinou see darkrose's mod... maybe, dunno 17:42 Anelisa point point poinr 17:42 Anelisa point 17:43 marktraceur NakedFury: You could very easily not register the craft recipe but check the layout in an inventory for your valid recipe 17:45 darkrose use my workbench mod, and make it a 4x4 or 5x5 recipe 17:46 NakedFury so for now the only way would be to use a bigger work area and make the recipes bigger 17:46 marktraceur darkrose: Do you use the normal registered crafting recipes? 17:46 darkrose yes 17:46 marktraceur NakedFury: No 17:47 Anelisa okayy.. 17:47 marktraceur (darkrose, I hope you were saying "yes" to me and not to his question) 17:47 darkrose to both 17:47 marktraceur But it's not the only way 17:47 darkrose :p 17:47 marktraceur NakedFury: You could very easily not register the craft recipe but check the layout in an inventory for your valid recipe 17:48 marktraceur I mean, repetition is a little irritating, but if it gets the point across 17:49 NakedFury I have no idea how to do that 17:50 marktraceur NakedFury: Use darkrose's mod as a base 17:50 marktraceur She has to check an inventory for valid craft recipes, then output the result 17:50 marktraceur You can do that, but skip the test for validity and just check your own table of valid recipes 17:51 marktraceur Or if you only have one, then just check for that one 17:51 Anelisa .___. 17:51 NakedFury reading it now 17:51 marktraceur Anelisa: Need some help? 17:52 Anelisa marktraceur i need help, i want make a texture pack with gimp (it's my favourite) can you help me ? 17:52 marktraceur Anelisa: Sadly, no. VanessaE might, she's not here right now 17:53 Anelisa ok.... 17:53 marktraceur Er.....maybe check back later 17:53 marktraceur Anelisa: Unless there's some specific problem you're having 19:21 cornernote released my module - ingame recipe viewer - http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=30726 19:22 cornernote now my kids can stop asking "how do i build {insert thing}" 19:23 Calinou lol, nice 19:24 Calinou great! 19:24 Calinou you need a better recipe probably 19:24 Calinou suggestion: 9 sticks, each in one slot 19:27 cornernote i like the question mark shape 19:27 cornernote why one in each slot? what does it represent ? 19:35 Calinou a square of sticks :d 19:35 Calinou your question mark does not look like a question mark at al 19:35 Calinou or: a single dirt block? :D 19:36 Calinou what newbies first try to do ^ 19:45 cornernote Calinou, yeah i thought about that .. 1 dirt block 19:45 cornernote but its kinda ... well.. too simple 19:46 marktraceur cornernote: What else are you going to craft with a dirt block? 19:56 Calinou inb4 someone makes mod to make dyes with dirt 19:56 Calinou "it doesn't make sense, but I'll stick with it." 19:56 jordach sorry Calinou already did that 19:57 marktraceur jordach: 1 dirt block -> brown dye? 19:57 jordach remember my classic wool mod 19:57 jordach dirt + white wool = brown wool 19:58 marktraceur jordach: But we're talking about a single dirt block. Nobody will use that for anything. Right? 19:58 marktraceur Oh, idea: 1 dirt block -> Bad coffee 19:58 jordach yes 19:59 jordach i know, one dirt block = one grass block 19:59 marktraceur Meh 20:43 jordach ngiht 20:45 marktraceur VanessaE: I think Anelise wanted you. Gone now, but meh 20:46 VanessaE oh fine, Anelise and Jordach both sign off when I'm ready to sign on. go figure. 20:46 VanessaE did you see if jordach got my links re: colors.txt and the script for it? 20:46 VanessaE also, hi :-) 20:48 marktraceur VanessaE: Yeah, he's been working on it 20:48 marktraceur And hi back! 20:48 VanessaE ok cool 20:49 VanessaE hope those links were to his liking :-) 20:55 nonporous Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main" 20:56 VanessaE dunno 20:56 marktraceur nonporous: That's definitely a bug, if someone else can reproduce 20:56 * marktraceur goes back to other things 20:57 nonporous marktraceur: hmm ok, is there a good place to report it? 20:58 marktraceur nonporous: http://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues 20:58 marktraceur But don't expect it to get solved super-quickly 21:07 VanessaE damn it, that script I posted is wrong 21:13 VanessaE there. corrected and posted. 21:13 VanessaE http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=28399 21:38 VanessaE marktraceur: you still haven't upgraded to the more recent junglegrass ;-) 21:38 VanessaE my front yard looks like it hasn't been mowed in a year ;-) 21:42 marktraceur I knowwww 21:42 marktraceur VanessaE: Tonight, I think, should be a good time for it 21:43 marktraceur I'm in between projects in-game, and have some time 21:43 VanessaE it'll need time to grow and kill off all the excess grass :-) 21:43 marktraceur I know 21:43 marktraceur But I have work 21:43 VanessaE 21:43 marktraceur I don't like it any more than you do :P 21:44 * marktraceur would gladly work on minetest mods/servers/core patches if he could get paid for it 21:44 VanessaE hah! dream on :-) 21:44 marktraceur I will, I will 21:44 * marktraceur looks at Kickstarter 21:44 marktraceur Meh, maybe later 21:45 marktraceur Anyway, 3 more hours, then I'll get quick dinner, then I'll do junglegrass, flowers, and farming in a better way 21:46 VanessaE hahaha - I think I need to add something to the mod where grass will only grow in the presence of full sunlight and only at Y >= 0 :-) 21:46 marktraceur (since your copy of junglegrass still has no COPYING files and, IIRC, still does randomness inside the ABM, I'll just modify my own) 21:46 VanessaE (a piece grew in a cavern below my 'house' :-) ) 21:46 marktraceur *nod* 21:48 marktraceur I can throw that in when I make my changes, if you don't mind 21:49 VanessaE er, ok 22:03 marktraceur Though I think sunlight has changed 22:04 VanessaE how so? 22:04 VanessaE (i've only barely looked into lighting in the game( 22:04 marktraceur Well, when I did the farming mod 22:05 marktraceur I was testing and all, but I only ever got ~14 light for any node above ground 22:05 marktraceur So I wound up lowering the requirement to 12 light 22:08 VanessaE it still only goes to 14 I think doesnt it? 22:08 marktraceur Might be 22:08 marktraceur The docs say up to 15 22:12 bas080 Vines mod that actually looks and functions like vines do 22:13 bas080 And can also craft a rope 22:13 bas080 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/vines.zip 22:13 bas080 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/Screenshot%20-%2007122012%20-%2012%3A08%3A19%20AM.png 22:13 bas080 screenshots^^^ 22:13 bas080 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/Screenshot%20-%2007122012%20-%2012%3A10%3A11%20AM.png 22:13 marktraceur bas080: Can you please put it on a code hosting site? It makes things a lot easier for everyone. 22:13 FreeFull Cool 22:14 FreeFull Do they work like ladders? 22:14 bas080 it is on github. will make own repo later 22:14 bas080 yes. But they dropdown ones rope block is placed 22:14 marktraceur bas080: Better to link there, then, and not dropbox. 22:14 marktraceur Especially since, at GitHub, we can get a tarball rather than a zip. 22:15 bas080 marktraceur: For my own security? 22:15 marktraceur bas080: No, for the rest of us 22:15 bas080 will do 22:15 marktraceur bas080: For your own security, you should not *use* dropbox, but that damage appears to have been done 22:16 bas080 damn, that sounds drastic 22:16 marktraceur bas080: Not particularly, considering the huge number of backup options that don't deny you digital freedom 22:19 VanessaE this the part where calinou would make some smartass FOSS-related remark ;-) 22:20 marktraceur True 22:21 marktraceur bas080: Calinou is a troll, and a frequent liar. If you, too, are a troll and frequent liar, it does you no harm to continue using Dropbox, and you should probably commence insulting me. 22:22 VanessaE he makes good mods though 22:23 VanessaE (sounds like we need a variant of the Hot/Crazy scale ;-) ) 22:24 marktraceur VanessaE: Somewhat irrelevant to the current conversation, I'm afraid 22:24 VanessaE truw 22:24 VanessaE true 22:24 bas080 https://github.com/bas080/vines 22:24 VanessaE I assume you get the Hot/Crazy reference? 22:25 bas080 i hate you marktraceur. you hurt my fellings. i would never troll 22:25 marktraceur bas080: I'm glad to hear it 22:25 marktraceur VanessaE: HIMYM? 22:25 VanessaE yes 22:25 marktraceur I figured 22:25 marktraceur Most awesome things come from there 22:27 marktraceur bas080: I wasn't calling you a troll, I was presenting you with the facts 22:27 bas080 I just like games bra 22:28 marktraceur bas080: That likely means you don't care about your digital freedom, so continue using Dropbox, we'll round you all up into internment camps with gaming rigs soon enough 22:28 bas080 so github is safe? 22:29 marktraceur bas080: Not particularly, no, but better than Dropbox in that you don't need to use a non-free client to access it 22:30 Bad_Command eh, you can interact with dropbox exclusively via their web interface 22:30 marktraceur Bad_Command: And their web interface is licensed permissively? 22:31 Bad_Command It is a service 22:31 Bad_Command You don't have to be in an internment camp to use it, any modern browser will work 22:31 Bad_Command Internment camps are fun though. Whee. 22:32 marktraceur Bad_Command: So what you're saying is, you can't access Dropbox without their non-free client? 22:32 Bad_Command Uh, no, I am saying the exact opposite. 22:32 marktraceur Bad_Command: So their web interface is licensed permissively? 22:32 Bad_Command No, that's you trying to make a false dichotomy 22:33 marktraceur Bad_Command: No, JavaScript is software just like anything else, so unless the answer is "yes", you're using their non-free code to access the service 22:33 Bad_Command I didn't say it uses javascript 22:33 marktraceur Bad_Command: I doubt it doesn't 22:33 marktraceur And in any case, their backend is totally shrouded in mystery, so the client-side problems are only the tip of the iceberg 22:34 Kray "problems" 22:34 Bad_Command So is github's backend 22:34 Bad_Command Lets see that code 22:34 marktraceur Bad_Command: I agree. So I use Gitorious. 22:35 marktraceur Kray: You're saying that someone running secret processes on your computer isn't something to be concerned about? 22:35 marktraceur Strip away the official-looking logos, most people would call that malware 22:35 marktraceur But some people actually pay for it 22:38 Bad_Command Because it is useful and does what it is intended to do... 22:38 marktraceur Bad_Command: And possibly more. And possibly in a mailicious or inefficient way. No way to know. 22:39 marktraceur Is this not the definition of malware? "I don't know what this thing is doing, and there's no way to figure that out" 22:39 Bad_Command No, I don't think so 22:39 Kray what kind of hardware you are running? 22:40 Kray is it's firmware open? 22:40 Kray *its 22:40 Bad_Command "Malware, short for malicious software, is software used or created by hackers to disrupt computer operation, gather sensitive information, or gain access to private computer systems. While it is often software, it can also appear in the form of scripts or code.[1] 'Malware' is a general term used to refer to a variety of forms of hostile, intrusive, or annoying software." 22:40 Kray it is just utter bullshit to call closed source software malware 22:40 Bad_Command Yup 22:41 bas080 Privacy and transparency for the win. But you need knowledge to know what your pc is running. Why aren't the pro's making that easier. Like the dude on tedtalks that made that app that shows what tracking internet companies are tracking you? 22:41 Kray have you built everything you run on your computer from sources yourself you have checked first? 22:41 marktraceur Kray: Sadly, no. I'm working towards having free firmware. Recent college grad's paychecks can't support a quick pivot :P 22:42 marktraceur Kray: But the real problem isn't that all non-free software is malware, but that it all *could* be. There's no way to know. 22:42 Kray if not, there might be something nasty there right from the distro 22:42 marktraceur (I suppose I misspoke) 22:42 Bad_Command That's called paranoia 22:42 Bad_Command They have meds that help with that 22:42 Kray indeed 22:42 VanessaE the question isn't do you trust the code - it's do you trust the coders. IOW, you shouldn't need to audit millions of lines of code, just vet a few thousand programmers, as one member of a large communi8ty 22:42 VanessaE -8 22:43 marktraceur Bad_Command, Kray: It boils down to this: Why should they keep me from controlling my computer, if they aren't doing something nasty? 22:43 Kray no one is keeping you from controlling your computer 22:43 marktraceur I admit I don't have the time to audit every line of code, but if I want to, why should they stop me? 22:43 VanessaE I don't avoid windows because I don't trust the OS (although I don't). I avoid it because I don't trust the people who wrote it. 22:43 Bad_Command Mark, you can do whatever you want. You're just preaching some baloney. 22:44 Kray these things are called trade secrets 22:44 marktraceur Bad_Command, Kray: If I run non-free software, I don't control what's running on my computer 22:44 Kray unfortunately it is part of business world 22:44 Kray you can sandbox it if you are so paranoid 22:44 marktraceur Kray: But I'm in my house right now, and my computer's processes shouldn't be trade secrets from *me* 22:44 marktraceur Just like it should be, and is, illegal to put something in food without informing people. 22:45 Kray do you have the exact information on how your fridge's all chips and such work? 22:45 Kray i don't think so 22:45 marktraceur "Hey, what's in this hamburger? I'm allergic to soy sauce." "Oh, we can't tell you, it's a trade secret" 22:45 Kray there is also some embedded stuff 22:45 Bad_Command Yeah that sounds like McDonald's 22:45 marktraceur Kray: Yes, and these are all problems 22:46 Kray they are not problems 22:46 marktraceur Things we should work to solve 22:46 Kray your paranoia is a problem 22:46 marktraceur Kray: If you can't take apart your fridge, and make it better, then you have a problem. You don't have control over your property. 22:46 marktraceur And why do you call it paranoia? Wanting control of my property isn't paranoia. 22:46 FreeFull I run Arch linux on machines 22:47 Kray it is called paranoia when it is so detached from reality 22:47 Bad_Command mark, you choose not to use dropbox. that's fine. 22:47 Kray but no point in arguing more, i'll go to sleep 22:47 FreeFull No propertiary stuff installed by default, so by default I can look at all the source code I want 22:47 marktraceur Kray: The reality is, I have possession of something, and it's doing things I don't want it to. That's not detached from anything. 22:48 Kray what it is doing that you don't want it to? 22:48 marktraceur Bad_Command: But you think that I'm somehow paranoid for thinking things that are true? 22:48 marktraceur Kray: Hypothetically, sorry 22:48 VanessaE car analogy time: I do my own repairs on my car (a 1992 cadillac). Should I have to defer some repairs to a technician because they would involve parts that I'm not allowed to even look at, for fear of breaking said trade secret? 22:48 VanessaE No. 22:48 marktraceur Kray: If it has an extra feature, or a missing feature, I should be able to change it. 22:48 marktraceur Kray: If it breaks, I should be able to fix it. 22:49 Kray well you can 22:49 VanessaE (and fortunately I have yet to find any such things, save for perhaps the internals of the computer) 22:49 marktraceur (see VanessaE's analogy, of course) 22:49 Kray they are just not helping you do it 22:49 marktraceur Kray: But I'd need to do inordinate amounts of work, in pure binary, to fix it 22:49 Kray well, it is your problem 22:49 Kray not theirs 22:49 Kray they are providing you with what you bought 22:50 marktraceur Kray: Bullshit. They've put a huge vault around the software, and you're saying they aren't preventing me from fixing it? 22:50 Bad_Command There's this neat thing called choice. 22:50 Kray what vault? 22:50 marktraceur Bad_Command: Ah, we always come to this inevitably. Choosing to go to jail is not freedom. 22:50 VanessaE kray: four words: Digital Millennium Copyright Act. 22:50 marktraceur Kray: If they plop down licensing restrictions, that's a huge vault. 22:50 VanessaE that vault. 22:51 Kray that doesn't prevent yourself doing it on your own 22:51 Bad_Command VanessaE: DMCA is not a vault. It has provisions that allow reverse engineering. 22:51 VanessaE Bad_Command: which have no teeth. 22:51 marktraceur Kray: Yeah, it does. It prevents you from legally making changes to the software. 22:51 Kray and? 22:51 marktraceur Kray: You shouldn't need to break the law to fix your property. 22:52 VanessaE those provisions are worthless 22:52 Bad_Command But it isn't your property you are trying to fix 22:52 marktraceur Bad_Command: So what did you pay for? Oh, right, a ticket to the show. 22:52 Kray it isn't broken 22:52 Bad_Command It is like trying to screw with a rental car 22:52 marktraceur "You can come in, and look around, but not too closely" 22:52 Kray you got what you bought 22:52 Bad_Command To use a car analogy 22:52 VanessaE it becomes my property the instant it hits my hard disk, and ceases to be my property when I try to upload it or delete it. 22:52 marktraceur It's *in your house*, *in your computer*, *messing with your private data* 22:53 marktraceur No. No. Not anymore. Fuck it. 22:53 Bad_Command well that was mildly amusing. 22:53 Bad_Command Anyhow, gotta buy some milk. BBL. 22:54 bleargh lol 22:55 VanessaE Kray: face it, no one will ever convince people like mark and I that software shouldn't be as free as any physical possession, nor that it's merely a license/rental/lease/whatever. 22:55 NakedFury hey guys! 22:55 NakedFury and girls 22:56 bleargh sup 22:56 NakedFury wow hot discussion 22:56 Kray obviously i'm against allowing doing whatever you want to what you got 22:56 VanessaE it's like buying a movie on some piece of physical media. I paid money for it from a legit retailer. Therefore, I own it, and I can do with it as I please (short of giving copies to others, I respect that) 22:56 bleargh as a user of free software myself i often find windows/nonfree bashing slightly ashaming 22:57 VanessaE and no one will ever convince me otherwise. 22:57 Kray but there is absolutely no justification for requiring distributor to provide source code 22:57 NakedFury why should they provide it? 22:58 VanessaE the justification is earning your customers' trust. Nothing more and nothing less. 22:58 bleargh you do that with a pr campaign 22:58 VanessaE a PR campaign will only get you so far, especially with geeks 22:59 bleargh well if you trust a company you have lost already 22:59 VanessaE no, company trusting its users. 22:59 VanessaE and in turn, the users trusting the company. 22:59 Bad_Command And trusting the competitors... 22:59 NakedFury that wont happen 22:59 NakedFury ever 23:00 VanessaE and that's a bad thing? competition is what makes businesses either succeed or fail. 23:00 NakedFury giving out source codes to gather trust is a bad move 23:00 NakedFury and wont happen unless its an open source project 23:00 VanessaE without it, you end up with monopolies, stagnation in the marketplace, maws written to protect existing companies and shut out new competition, etc. 23:01 VanessaE these are not good things for any market, open source or otherwise. 23:01 VanessaE maws -> laws. 23:02 VanessaE and if your company is built upon the foundation of secrecy in your software, you're in for a hell of a fall some day. 23:02 VanessaE because sooner or later those secrets will either be revealed, or someone will make something better. 23:02 NakedFury thi has been the way since the beginning 23:03 VanessaE yes, indeed it has... and what I said has been the result from the beginning 23:03 VanessaE secrets will be found out.