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IRC log for #minetest, 2012-07-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 NakedFury ok I wanted to help you but the plotz websites print option wont work because I dont have admin permission in this computer to save the file
00:05 marktraceur I wouldn't have accepted it anyway
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02:56 nonporous anyone know what the node parameter is_ground_content does?
03:00 Mad solid?
03:00 Mad set it false. see if you can fall throught
03:00 Mad through*
03:05 nonporous i think the parameter "walkable" is for being able to walk thru
03:05 nonporous but i'll see what happens if i set it false
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03:09 nonporous i don't see the effect of setting is_ground_content to false
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04:11 noob_ is anyone on?
04:11 noob_ i have a question about minetest
04:14 noob_ what is a vanilla client
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05:51 marktraceur noob_: Your mom is a vanilla client. Seriously, she just never asks for the weird stuff. It concerns me.
05:57 VanessaE heh
06:06 nonporous i wonder if someone can help me with this
06:06 nonporous if i register a node with some properties
06:06 nonporous how do i get those properties out later?
06:07 nonporous it seems that even if i register a node with a name, description, drawtype, etc.
06:07 nonporous later on the only things i've really been able to access are node.name, node.param1, and node.param2
06:07 nonporous (and probably meta data but i haven't tried yet)
06:07 nonporous node.drawtype for example returns an error
06:08 nonporous why?
06:08 marktraceur nonporous: registered_nodes[nodename] should give you something, not sure if it's more than [name, param1, param2]
06:08 nonporous (sorry, i meant returns nil)
06:08 nonporous WHY?
06:08 nonporous hmmm
06:08 marktraceur nonporous: I don't know why, sorry
06:08 marktraceur I think I saw something....hold on
06:09 nonporous the thing is i'm not getting the node from minetest.registered_nodes, i'm getting the node from a callback registration function
06:10 nonporous (in particular the one that is called whenever a node is punched)
06:10 marktraceur nonporous: Well, minetest.registered_nodes[node.name] should give you the rest
06:10 nonporous oh i see what you mean!
06:10 marktraceur nonporous: Search for "get_nodedef_field" in doc/lua_api.txt
06:10 nonporous ok so there's two data structures at play here
06:10 marktraceur It's an example function, mighty helpful I'd say
06:10 marktraceur Right
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06:11 marktraceur It's silly to pass around huge tables when three properties will do for most things
06:11 nonporous yes i see
06:11 nonporous thanks, that example is just what i needed!
06:11 marktraceur A lot of modders will write callbacks like "ARE THIS MAI SOOPER COOL NODE? THEN _MAKE IT T3H BIGGER_"
06:11 marktraceur They don't even need the params
06:12 nonporous lol
06:12 marktraceur No doubt celeron assumed that people would have such stupidity, and accounted for it
06:13 nonporous right
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06:23 nonporous wait a second why did you say they don't even need the params
06:23 nonporous i think they do need the params
06:24 nonporous i think there are two data structures at play: we could call them registered nodes and nodes
06:24 nonporous a node is a particular instance of a block in the world
06:24 nonporous so if it has a fluid for example, the params are important because they indicate the fluid level
06:25 nonporous a corresponding registered node on the other hand is an object that contains attributes common to all instances of nodes of that type
06:25 nonporous think i'm on the right track?
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07:12 cy1 yay the sinusoidal growth algorithm works great
07:12 cy1 except for generated content, bleh. but that's terrible p. universally
07:12 cy1 anyone want to come on my world? :D
07:12 * marktraceur is too busy with spheroids
07:14 brobostigon good morning everyone.
07:14 nonporous its 3 AM, but good morning i guess
07:15 nonporous meta data was really done intelligently
07:15 marktraceur nonporous: Consider that this is an interational communication medium :)
07:15 marktraceur international*
07:15 nonporous apparently if you just start manipulating pieces of metadata that don't exist
07:15 nonporous marktraceur: i recognize that lol, i'm just pointing out my own timezone
07:16 marktraceur nonporous: Also, Hawaii?
07:16 marktraceur Or Russia?
07:16 nonporous marktraceur: US eastern
07:16 cy1 maybe I'll ask when it isn't midnight on the west coast...
07:16 marktraceur Oh, wrong way :P
07:16 nonporous yea
07:16 nonporous anyway
07:16 nonporous if you just start manipulating pieces of metadata that don't exist
07:16 nonporous it will create it for that node
07:17 nonporous so you can just willy nilly invent meta data as you go for any block!
07:19 nonporous i freaking love this game more for everything i learn
07:20 marktraceur nonporous: Glad to hear it! :)
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07:24 * darkrose notices talk of metadata, curtsies while tipping a non-existant hat
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07:30 emspri Bad_Command i have a gameboom account.
07:30 emspri what do i have to do now ??
07:41 brobostigon emspri: good morning, ok, i got your highlight, i have another busy day, so will do so, when i can.
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07:54 * marktraceur can no longer do spheres
07:54 marktraceur Good night
07:58 nonporous night
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08:09 * vicscandl waves...
08:20 * nonporous waves back
08:34 nonporous hmm all the methods of an "InvRef" have something called "listname" as an argument
08:34 nonporous i can't figure out what listname is supposed to be
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08:45 darkrose nonporous: inventories contain list's of item stacks, for a chest the name of the list is 'main' for instance
08:45 nonporous ah so that's what it is
08:46 nonporous what was it for a player inventory
08:46 nonporous something like "current"?
08:46 nonporous oh nope it's also main
08:46 nonporous darkrose: ok thanks!
08:47 darkrose yep, np :)
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08:55 nonporous weird... when i use remove_item on a player inventory, it only works if the item is not selected
08:56 nonporous (i.e. not in the player's hand)
08:59 nonporous could this be a minetest glitch? or the item stack in the player's hand actually not a part of the "main" list?
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09:07 Ririshi Hey
09:08 Ririshi joined #minetest
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09:12 jahmke brobostigon are there other people on your server??
09:14 emspri joined #minetest
09:14 emspri brobostigon are there actualy other people on ur server ???
09:17 nonporous Is there a way to edit the attributes of a registered node after it has already been registered?
09:18 darkrose no, you can get them then edit, then register a new node type though
09:22 nonporous hmm, that wouldn't do
09:22 nonporous i wonder if there's an alternative methdo
09:22 darkrose no
09:22 nonporous basically i'd need to edit the attribute "on_destruct" of every node type
09:23 nonporous there must be some way to choose what happens when a player destroys a node in general
09:24 darkrose minetest.register_on_dignode()
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09:25 nonporous perfect! thank you
09:25 nonporous "global callback functions"
09:25 nonporous that's what i was looking for
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09:26 nonporous the comment says it's depracated and refers me back to on_destruct
09:27 nonporous does that mean it's going to be removed? :(
09:28 Calinou it's on_destruct and on_construct now
09:29 darkrose it's not deprecated, it's gonna stay
09:32 Ririshi|AFK Hey guys
09:32 Ririshi oops.
09:34 nonporous glad to hear that
09:34 nonporous are you a developer darkrose?
09:35 darkrose isn't everyone?
09:35 Ririshi Sorry I'm testing around a bit.
09:36 Ririshi yay it works
09:36 Ririshi sorry XD
09:36 Ririshi I got a new
09:36 Ririshi IRC client.
09:37 nonporous i mean like a core code developer, not just a modder
09:37 nonporous you seem to... know things
09:38 darkrose yeah, I did a bit of work on the lua api in the latest release
09:38 nonporous cool
09:39 nonporous thanks for your work, i just started learning the modding api today and i'm loving it more every hour
09:39 darkrose cool :)
09:46 jahmke Does anyone know a popular server?
09:49 nonporous I think I need a global version of on_destruct, rather than a global version of after_destruct
09:50 nonporous So I need something like minetest.register_on_dignode(), except I want the function called *before* the node is destroyed
09:50 nonporous because i need to access the node's metadata, and that is lost by the time the node is destroyed
09:51 darkrose try register_on_punchnode()
09:51 darkrose it's called when it's first hit, but not completely dug
09:53 nonporous i've been using that one for other things, but I need something for complete digging
09:53 nonporous thanks though
09:54 Calinou <darkrose> isn't everyone?
09:54 Calinou no *_*
09:54 Calinou landmine isn't a developer :P
09:54 Calinou <Ririshi> I got a new
09:54 Calinou <Ririshi> IRC client.
09:54 Calinou > don't use enter as punctuation
09:54 Calinou > away nicks are bad mkay? Ririshi|AFK was kicked for being an away nick assclown.
09:54 Calinou > xchat > all clients
09:55 nonporous someone is very opinionated lol
09:56 nonporous darkrose: i may just have to patch a copy of the default mod, adding an on_destruct for each block I care about :/
09:56 darkrose nonporous: you could use meta:to_table() in on_punchnode, store the table, then look it up on_dignode
09:56 Calinou :}
09:56 nonporous darkrose: woah great idea thanks!
09:57 nonporous darkrose: i should've thought of that
10:01 cornernote hi
10:01 cornernote anyone got a server i can join onto ?
10:02 cornernote we have me and my 2 kids here that are keen to build =)
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10:05 Calinou cornernote, 95% of servers require application to build
10:05 Calinou open servers are almost always victims of griefing
10:05 Calinou cornernote, see the "servers" forum of minetest forum
10:05 cornernote what do you mean "application to build" ?
10:06 cornernote i tried to connect to them all, none worked
10:06 Japa_werk joined #minetest
10:06 Calinou some servers are on 0.4, some on 0.3
10:06 Calinou not all of them are up; it's not because they have a topic they're up
10:07 Calinou application to build: you have to set a password on the server, THEN request build rights by posting in the server thread.
10:07 Calinou aka: "graylist"
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10:11 Calinou http://servers.minetest.ru/
10:11 Calinou > some servers need to be removed
10:11 Calinou servers with uptime < 75% should not be shown in the list
10:14 cornernote cool, thanks!
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10:27 emspri does someone know a popular server ???
10:31 Calinou redcrab.suret.net port 30401
10:31 Calinou latest nightly
10:33 [12368] joined #minetest
10:33 [12368] hi
10:41 VanessaE joined #minetest
10:42 Calinou hi spammer name
10:42 Calinou hi VanessaE
10:43 emspri Calinou are there people on that server ??
10:43 Calinou yes
10:43 Calinou often
10:43 Calinou you must request permission to build
10:43 Calinou and you can ask redcrab to protect areas
10:44 emspri redcrab can i have interact privs ??
10:44 Calinou http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1705
10:44 Calinou -_-
10:45 Calinou emspri
10:45 Calinou 1) connect to the server
10:45 Calinou 2) set a non-guessable password
10:45 Calinou 3) ask on the forum, it is better
10:45 emspri ok
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11:04 nonporous Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main"
11:10 Taoki joined #minetest
11:10 emspri ah im stuck on the pun stop bots question
11:11 emspri what is the current stable version of minetest
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11:18 brobostigon emspri: what do you mean?
11:21 emspri im on the forums and i want to send a reply but then i get the pun stop bots question and that never ends
11:21 Calinou do it several times
11:21 Calinou stable version: 0.3.1
11:21 Calinou developer: celeron55
11:21 emspri thanks
11:22 emspri how can i see if redcrab is here ??
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11:24 cornernote an ingame recipe wiki would be so cool
11:24 emspri yeah
11:24 cornernote its so hard to keep track of all the mods/recipies
11:27 cornernote im not very familiar with lua/c .. but i can code a little... where would i start if i wanted to make something like that ?
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11:28 cornernote it could work with just a txt interface to start... you type /recipe [some_item] .. and looks up the recipe and outputs it to the chat
11:28 cornernote sec, going to find/read some similar mods
11:29 cornernote sethome mod shows me how to do the command input/output
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11:32 cornernote http://pastebin.com/HwDAsDWd
11:33 cornernote where can i see mintest source code ?
11:35 cornernote found it here.. https://github.com/celeron55/minetest
11:35 cornernote i'm looking for the code for the /give command
11:37 cisoun wait for it
11:38 cisoun https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/default/init.lua#L1839
11:38 cisoun here.
11:39 cornernote sweet, thanks
11:45 cornernote when loading the item, there is a check like this... "if itemstack:is_empty then" ... what does is_empty mean ?
11:46 darkrose checks to see if your head is empty, in your case, returning true
11:47 Calinou lol
11:47 cornernote and now i have the item loaded, how do i go about finding it's recipe ?   (lol, the hard part)
11:47 cisoun I think, when your inventory is full, you cannot get a new item.
11:47 Calinou ^
11:47 cornernote ahh, ok i dont need that then
11:48 cornernote so i have this so far
11:48 cornernote http://pastebin.com/gbuNjaYR
11:48 cornernote i can say /recipe XXX .. and it says "so you want the recipe for XXX hey?"  .. where XXX is a valid item
11:49 Calinou cornernote, the harder part is to _tell_ the user the _actual_ crafting recipe
11:49 Calinou like "X = wood O = sticks" then does some ascii art
11:50 Calinou probably impossible
11:51 cornernote i'll just call it default:wood
11:51 cornernote output like this...
11:51 Calinou think of the end user
11:51 cornernote 1=default:wood, 2=default:wood, 3=default:wood, 4=empty, 5=default:stick
11:51 cornernote i am the end user!   =)
11:52 cornernote output can be better in a later version, some kind of GUI would be great
11:52 Calinou noone will understand that
11:52 Calinou popping up a GUI, would, yes, be very nice
11:52 cornernote but v0.1alpha will be easier to code for me with text
11:53 cornernote and its only for me
11:53 cornernote and i will understand the output
11:53 cornernote once i have that, i'll try to make a gui .. but i have no idea how to start with that
11:54 cornernote so, any tips on how i can get the recipe in the lua file ?
11:55 Calinou no
11:55 * Calinou isn't an expert lua coder
11:56 cornernote do you know where the class for blocks is defined ?
11:56 cornernote maybe i can stumble through the api
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11:58 cisoun cornernote: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt
11:58 cisoun did you check this file ?
12:01 cornernote was just reading that =)
12:01 cornernote i dont think it will help, but it may lead me on the right path
12:01 cornernote well, it will help, but it wont tell me the magic answer =)
12:03 * Calinou shall continue the french translation of the lua API
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12:05 lokke hello world
12:06 lokke just a question.. how do i play testmine in singlieplayer?
12:07 cisoun Just launch the game, type your name and leave the address blank then "Start Game"
12:08 cisoun type "/grant singleplayer all" during the game if you want to have all grants in singleplayer.
12:12 lokke thanks ;)
12:13 cornernote i think the problem may be that there may be more than one way to craft any one item
12:14 cornernote additionally, there are several crafting methods (craft/cook/etc)
12:21 Calinou ligne 450! :D
12:22 Calinou lokke, it's minetest not testmine
12:22 Calinou are you playing 0.3.1 or the 0.4 dev version?
12:22 cornernote i see from creative_inventory how i can kinda do a gui, but still stuck on how to get the recipe
12:23 Calinou creative mode sucks :P
12:25 brobostigon wow, inside 24hours, my minetest server has doubled in ram usage.
12:26 Anelisa joined #minetest
12:26 Anelisa Coucou ! :)
12:27 jahmke bonjour XD
12:32 brobostigon hmm, ram is tight now, :(
12:34 brobostigon there must be a solution, or it could go tits up.
12:36 brobostigon ok, restarting the server solved the issue.
12:37 brobostigon freed up 38% of the ram, uses 2% now.
12:44 cornernote what does this mean: TextureSource::buildMainAtlas(): Atlas is full, not adding more textures
12:45 Calinou hi Anelisa
12:45 Calinou cornernote, texture atlas is full.
12:45 Anelisa Calinou, je trouve pas le dossier pour les mods !!! ;'(
12:45 Calinou a texture atlas is a large texture created by the engine to speed things up
12:45 Calinou you can disable it if it causes graphic glitches
12:46 Calinou Anelisa, sur une version packagée sur linux:
12:46 Calinou ~/.minetest/mods/minetest
12:47 Calinou (ctrl+L dans nautilus pour y accéder, tape ce chemin)
12:47 Calinou ou ctrl+H pour montrer les dossiers cachés
12:47 Anelisa oups
12:47 Anelisa une gaff
12:48 Anelisa #minetest
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12:52 brobostigon emspri: did my pub get lava'd again ?
12:53 Calinou http://paste.ubuntu.com/1086131/
12:53 Calinou Anelisa, ^
12:53 Calinou AndrewPH, oh hi :3 </unban>
12:54 * brobostigon is alittle frustrated.
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12:58 Anelisa2 re
12:58 Anelisa2 je suis Anelisa...
12:58 Calinou on sait
12:58 Calinou /nick Anelisa
12:58 Anelisa merci
12:59 Anelisa <Calinou> ~/.minetest/mods/minetest
12:59 Anelisa <Calinou> (ctrl+L dans nautilus pour y accéder, tape ce chemin)
12:59 Anelisa <Calinou> ou ctrl+H pour montrer les dossiers cachés  dans le terminal ?
12:59 Calinou non, dans nautilus
12:59 Calinou > gestionnaire de fichiers ^^
12:59 Anelisa ok je regarde
12:59 Calinou (celui par défaut d'ubuntu)
13:00 Anelisa ok
13:00 Anelisa ben il est pas installé... u_u
13:00 Anelisa ah si
13:01 Calinou ^^
13:02 Anelisa quelle bête suis-je ?! Lol, c'est bon merci
13:02 Calinou de rien
13:02 cornernote can i make the atlas bigger ?
13:02 cornernote is it cos i have too many mods ?
13:03 Calinou no, you can't
13:03 Calinou just ignore the erorr
13:03 Calinou error*
13:03 cornernote ok
13:03 nonporous Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main"
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13:04 cornernote if i am in a box, i can use set_stack() to put something into one of the box fields... how do i remove something from a field ?
13:04 Calinou "box" > chest
13:04 Calinou don't name them boxes :x
13:05 cornernote an "inventory"
13:06 cornernote =)
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13:06 Anelisa comment je fait pour être admin en solo et que y'a plus de monstres ?
13:08 Calinou plus de monstres dans la 0.4
13:08 Calinou tu es déjà admin en solo, mais pour voler, tape:
13:08 Calinou /grant singleplayer all
13:09 Calinou si tu as démarré ta partie solo depuis le menu "advanced", tape:
13:09 Calinou /grant ton_pseudo all
13:09 Calinou (remplace ton_pseudo évidemment)
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13:13 Anelisa les mods marchent pas ! ;'(
13:13 Anelisa plus de monstres dans la 0.4  plus du tout ?! :O
13:22 Calinou plus du tout pour le moment
13:22 Calinou ils seront rajoutés avant la sortie d'une version stable
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13:25 Anelisa ah.. ouinn
13:26 Anelisa La version 0.4 est encore en modifications ?
13:26 Calinou oui, en développement
13:28 Anelisa >__<
13:28 Anelisa c'est quoi les commandes pour me donner par ex 99 de cobble ou quoi ?
13:39 cisoun /giveme default:cobble 99 je crois
13:42 Anelisa ok
13:42 Anelisa merci
13:43 Anelisa cannot give an unknown item
13:43 Anelisa u_u
13:43 jahmke joined #minetest
13:44 Calinou Anelisa, /giveme cobble 99
13:44 Calinou plus court et ça marche
13:45 Anelisa lol
13:45 Calinou pour un stack presque infini: /giveme cobble -1
13:47 Anelisa ok merci ! :)
13:50 Anelisa maintenant j'ai une vraie ville ! lol
13:57 Anelisa pour le coal comment je fait ?
13:57 Calinou /giveme lump_of_coal quantité
13:57 Calinou en remplaçant quantité par la quantité que tu veux ^^
13:58 jahmke joined #minetest
13:59 Anelisa et les bâtons (stick) x) ^^
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14:14 Anelisa je suis la plus riche de mon village !! héhé (normal y'a que moi.
14:14 Anelisa ))
14:15 brobostigon http://taylorworld.me.uk/wiki/doku.php/todo
14:26 cornernote hi all, i am making my 1st mod... its an info sign that will (eventually) show you the recipe to make any ingame item... i have it to the point where i can make a sign, open the sign (like a chest), move stuff around, etc...
14:27 cornernote looking really nice so far... now all i need is to get the code to find the input items for a recipe
14:30 cornernote whats the difference between a node and a craftitem ?
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14:43 brobostigon does that wiki page work fine?
14:46 cornernote works for me
14:46 brobostigon good, thank you.
14:50 cornernote ok, after reading a bit of source code, i think you cannot tell how to craft an item
14:50 cornernote there is no method to list all the crafts
14:51 cornernote plus, even if there were... there may be multiple ways to make an item
14:51 cornernote thats a real shame, an ingame build helper would have been really nice
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14:57 cornernote hi VanessaE, wondering if you might have a minute to help me with a mod i am trying to make ?
14:58 VanessaE I can try but I dunno how much help I'll be, I literally just got out of bed :-)
14:58 VanessaE *rubs eyes*
14:58 cornernote basically i want to have a mod that shows the recipe for a given item
14:58 cornernote i have done the interface, etc... i just dont know how i can see a list of registered recipies
14:59 cornernote i need that so i can iterate over them to find which one makes the requested item
14:59 VanessaE oh you've got me there - that goes beyond anything I've done so far
14:59 cornernote dang
14:59 VanessaE (and we DO need a mod like this, btw - I'
14:59 VanessaE m glad you're working on it!)
14:59 cornernote its my 1st mod
15:00 cornernote i have it working, except it cant tell you a recipe... would you like to see it ?
15:01 VanessaE I'll pass for now - I'm too bleary right now to understand a "Hello World" program, much less something useful ;-)
15:01 cornernote i might ask in the forums, see if anyone has any ideas
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15:05 VanessaE yeah, better to do that - you'll get a better answer that way
15:06 darkrose well, either way the answer will be "it can't be done with the current api"
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15:15 jordach sup
15:15 Anelisa re
15:17 cornernote darkrose, ok thats what i thought
15:17 cornernote dang :(
15:18 cornernote i made a forum post anyway
15:18 cornernote http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=30726
15:18 cornernote perhaps 0.5 will allow it =)
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15:19 cornernote the other way i can do it (kinda messy) is by parsing the other LUA files
15:19 VanessaE sounds like a good opportunity for someone to make a patch :-)
15:19 cornernote do a regex to pull out all the register_craft function calls
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15:20 VanessaE yeah but how do you get a list of lua files to read in the first place?
15:20 cornernote theres no function to list files in a folder ?
15:20 VanessaE I mean, they're not exactly all stored in the same place
15:20 cornernote just recurcively find *.lua in the nietest folder
15:21 cornernote http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5303174/get-list-of-directory-in-a-lua
15:21 VanessaE you have to include run-in-place installs, system installs, and both linux and windows variants
15:21 cornernote yeah, its messy
15:22 Calinou <cornernote> do a regex to pull out all the register_craft function calls
15:22 Calinou ;8;
15:22 Calinou ;_;*
15:22 Calinou DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE A SIMPLE LUA MOD
15:22 Calinou TALKS ABOUT REGEXES
15:22 Calinou MEME!
15:22 cornernote i know regex, i dont know lua
15:22 cornernote and i did make a simple mod
15:22 cornernote i just cant get a list of the crafts, mostly because there is no api for it =)
15:25 cornernote if i can regex the files, i will be left with a string like this.... minetest.register_craft({...})  then i make it a string like this {...}
15:25 Calinou inb4 archlinux
15:25 cornernote then once i have that, i can just define all of them in a local array
15:26 cornernote not too complex, but still messy
15:26 VanessaE the problem is getting the list of all lua files from all directories the current install of minetest is compiled to scan for
15:27 Topic for #minetest is now Please be patient when asking questions; someone may not be around. | Main website: http://minetest.net | Development channel: #minetest-delta | Rule: Calinou will make jokes at your expense.
15:27 VanessaE e.g. /usr/local/share or /usr/share or ~/.minetest/mods/minetest or whatever run-in-place versions use, or whatever windows uses :-)
15:27 cornernote what about if the mod doesnt support external folders... i think it will still be useful
15:27 Calinou lol jordach
15:27 Topic for #minetest is now Please be patient when asking questions; someone may not be around. | Main website: http://minetest.net | Development channel: #minetest-delta
15:27 Topic for #minetest is now Please be patient when asking questions; someone may not be around. | Main website: http://minetest.net | Development channel: #minetest-delta
15:27 Calinou :{
15:27 jordach double click much
15:27 cornernote or, you can put a list of folders that contain mods into an ini file
15:27 cornernote something like that
15:28 VanessaE cornernote: no, that won't work - such a mod needs to be transparent.  remember your audience :-)
15:28 VanessaE (some of these people can't even figure out how to *install* a mod, must less build a list of them)
15:28 VanessaE s/must/much/
15:28 cornernote audience is the server admin... they should know where they put mods, right ?
15:29 VanessaE everyone's their own server admin also, since the game runs in single-player mode as well
15:30 cornernote single players should have put all their mods into mods/minetest .. which a place my mod will look by default
15:30 VanessaE right, but what about the system-wide stuff?
15:30 VanessaE a number of the game's default items are in fact mods
15:31 cornernote builtin\*.lua
15:31 VanessaE no
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15:31 cornernote where do they live ?
15:31 cornernote games\minimal\mods ?
15:31 VanessaE on my box, one location is /usr/local/share/minetest/games/minetest_game/mods/*/*.lua
15:32 Anelisa re
15:32 Anelisa Calinou les mods marchent pas !!
15:32 cornernote if i scan minetest/* recursive it will find those
15:32 Calinou message d'erreur?
15:32 Anelisa nan rien
15:32 VanessaE yes, that would work...  now what about windows? :-)
15:32 Calinou FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCK
15:32 Calinou access violation on chat console open
15:32 Calinou this is very rare usually
15:33 VanessaE Calinou: F10 crash?
15:33 Calinou F8 for me
15:33 VanessaE bah
15:33 Calinou I said access violation not segfault
15:33 Calinou this issue is much more common on linux than on windows
15:33 VanessaE this is why it bugs me so much that c55 took off
15:33 VanessaE this is a bad bug.
15:33 VanessaE and makes it impossible to play the game on a high-chat-activity server
15:33 cornernote VanessaE, isnt it the same folder path on windows ?
15:34 VanessaE cornernote: no
15:34 VanessaE cornernote:  on windows it could be pretty much anywhere
15:34 NakedFury I have windows tell me
15:34 VanessaE (linux too, but usually /usr/share or /usr/local/share )
15:35 cornernote then the person installing mods into c:\anywhere instead of minetest\* wont see the mods outside of minetest\* ... unless they add the paths to the mod ini file
15:35 VanessaE so what you have to do is execute some function that gives you the parent directory of your minetest install, and another that returns your minetest user config path, and scan those
15:35 Calinou you can get the modpath cornernote
15:35 Calinou minetest.get_modpath() iirc
15:35 Calinou see the doc
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15:37 VanessaE s/doc/the travesty that is the minetest API/
15:37 VanessaE :-)
15:37 cornernote yeah, i read through that... its not so bad VanessaE
15:37 jordach VanessaE, WANTING 77 WOOL?
15:38 cornernote a little html would brighten it up a little =)
15:38 darkrose eww
15:38 jordach darkrose, its going to use the unified dyes mod
15:38 VanessaE cornernote: I've read through it too...and it's a fucking mess
15:38 jordach WITH DEPENDS>TXT
15:39 VanessaE jordach: you switch to unified dyes and I'll make more textures for my photorealistic pack :-)
15:39 jordach LOOKS LIKE 77 then
15:39 VanessaE but as I recall you're pretty dead-set on not using it (depends!!!!!!!!) so fuck it :)
15:40 VanessaE plus you're now competing with bas080, who wants to do a cotton mod of a similar style as wool, and also with unifieddyes for the colors :-)
15:42 NakedFury where does the cotton come from?
15:42 VanessaE the cotton flower from the flowers mod.
15:42 NakedFury ok
15:42 marktraceur VanessaE: I put my mientest install in /dev/null now I cant find it what I do!?!?!??!??!
15:43 VanessaE marktraceur: hahahah
15:43 Calinou see the the travesty that is the minetest API
15:43 Calinou THE THE
15:43 cornernote restore using rm / -rf
15:43 VanessaE :P
15:43 Calinou y u put arguments after?
15:44 cornernote bad habbit
15:44 jordach oh and btw: wool will make use of cotton flowers instead of my crappy one
15:44 cornernote fails on bsd i think
15:44 marktraceur cornernote: Thanks, I'll one day give you huge percentages to transfer money out of my deceased father's royal treasury in a rebelling country
15:44 jordach marktraceur, if thats a film ref. get out
15:44 cornernote and a penis enlargment ?
15:44 jordach HA!
15:45 marktraceur jordach: No, it's a Nigerian scammer reference
15:45 Calinou BSD sucks
15:45 jordach mark, FUUUUUUU---
15:45 cornernote bsd has its place, but not on my servers =)
15:45 marktraceur cornernote: No, that's the good stuff. You'd have to like, save my cat's life
15:46 marktraceur I'll let you know when I get a cat and it's in danger
15:46 cornernote do you think if i refresh my forum post many times it will increase the chance someone will reply ?
15:46 Calinou no
15:46 jordach cornernote, did you check the subscribe checkbox when making the topic
15:46 Calinou bumping is a bad habit, too
15:47 marktraceur cornernote: Increased resolution of data, but bigger chance the server will go down. I'd say it's about even.
15:47 cornernote yes, im subscribed.. just impatient =)   .. i REALLY want an ingame craft viewer
15:47 Anelisa Calinou je fait comment ??
15:47 Calinou this is where you should stop being lazy and use C++ instead, cornernote
15:47 Calinou Anelisa, pour faire quoi?
15:47 Anelisa ben les mods
15:47 Anelisa ...
15:48 cornernote extend the api ?
15:48 Calinou Anelisa, ah
15:48 marktraceur cornernote: If you can make something general that allows for creating windows, that'd be awesome :)
15:48 cornernote but, lol, im running on windows and i dont know how to compile
15:48 Calinou Anelisa, tu as démarré le jeu "minetest_game", pas "minimal"?
15:48 NakedFury compiling on windows is a bitch
15:48 Anelisa oui
15:48 jordach OH YES
15:48 Calinou +1
15:48 jordach I FRICKIN IS
15:48 Anelisa minetest__game
15:48 Calinou cornernote, thought you were on harshlinux or such
15:48 Calinou :/
15:48 marktraceur jordach: Sticky shift key today?
15:49 cornernote i'll have to setup my linux box and have a twiddle... dont know that i can make a window viewer tho...
15:49 NakedFury god microsoft sucks, you would have thought they would have improved compiling by now
15:49 jordach Calinou, when will the jokes at theyre expense stop?
15:49 Calinou "If your minetest is a system-wide installed version on Linux your folder is something like (create if needed):
15:49 Calinou ~/.minetest/mods/minetest/"
15:49 Calinou NakedFury, they do, but you're still forced to buy their OS sadly
15:49 Calinou (and for drivers too, /me points at nvidia)
15:49 VanessaE back
15:49 Calinou kcab
15:49 jordach marktraceur, shift key is fine: just raging like normal
15:51 cornernote is there any way to override/extend the minetest.register_craft method ?
15:51 Anelisa je les ai mis dedans
15:51 marktraceur cornernote: I guess you could override it, but I wouldn't suggest that
15:51 VanessaE there's nothing wrong with bumping a thread if you're adding something useful to it (like status updates)
15:52 Calinou Anelisa, ta structure ressemble bien à: ~/.minetest/mods/minetest/moreblocks/init.lua par exemple?
15:52 Anelisa oui
15:52 cornernote marktraceur - in lua, without having to re-compile ?
15:52 marktraceur cornernote: Yep
15:52 cornernote oh oh, now im excited
15:52 marktraceur minetest.register_craft = function (arguments) end
15:52 cornernote why wouldn't you recommend it ?
15:52 marktraceur (empty function)
15:53 cornernote how do i get that to happen before any other mod loads ?
15:53 marktraceur cornernote: Because you'd need to back up the original, then re-instantiate it when you're done
15:53 marktraceur Ha, not possible
15:53 cornernote name my mod aaa ?
15:53 marktraceur (without c++)
15:53 Calinou name it bbb
15:53 cornernote ok, then that seems like not an option
15:53 marktraceur cornernote: I think aaa might still load last, but I'm not totally sure how the order goes
15:54 cornernote another option is to have "supported" mods... so every mod has to have the minetest.register_craft calls copied to a similar method
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15:55 marktraceur cornernote: Right. So make a library, basically, and have mod authors depend on it
15:55 * marktraceur wonders why this doesn't happen more often
15:55 Anelisa ...
15:55 cornernote they dont have to depend on it, but they can "hook into it"
15:55 marktraceur Perhaps because people show no interest in package management
15:55 cornernote eg, not a dependancy, more of an option
15:56 marktraceur cornernote: No, because if you don't depend on it, it might load later
15:56 cornernote ahh, ok and i need to have my.register_craft function definition loaded before they call it
15:56 marktraceur Yes.
15:57 cornernote it doesnt load all the files, then exec.. ?
15:57 marktraceur And dependencies will always load first :)
15:57 marktraceur No, of course not
15:57 cornernote sorry, im a php coder
15:57 cornernote so im used to all kinds of things that arent "normal" in most languages
15:58 cornernote this works just fine for me:   myrun(); function myrun(){ echo 'hello world'; }   =)
15:58 marktraceur cornernote: :) I'm getting used to PHP, it's an interesting language
15:58 jordach because its a lazy language
15:58 darkrose s/interesting/insane/
15:59 marktraceur darkrose: Are insane people not sometimes interesting? :)
15:59 cornernote if you havent used it, yiiframework - awesome FW for php
15:59 marktraceur cornernote: I have the ultimate framework, MediaWiki
16:01 cornernote marktraceur, if the other mod uses depends, and mine loads 1st... then i can override minetest.register_craft ... right ?
16:01 cornernote no need for my.register_craft()
16:02 marktraceur cornernote: Yes, but you'd need to put it back or risk breaking everything
16:02 cornernote i dont think i can... theres no "after depends"
16:02 marktraceur (or at least, you could put in a call to the original function)
16:02 cornernote yes, i will do that =)
16:03 marktraceur It would be so much better to *not* override main functions, though
16:03 cornernote how do i call the original function ?
16:03 cornernote minetest.register_craft = function (options) minetest.register_craft(options) end
16:04 cornernote wouldnt that just make an infinite loop ?
16:04 marktraceur Yes
16:04 marktraceur cornernote: local mtrc_back = minetest.register_craft
16:04 marktraceur Then call mtrc_back inside of your function
16:06 Anelisa Calinou ??
16:07 cornernote sweet!, it works
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16:17 cornernote sorry for dumb lua questions... if i have an array like this option={myvar='test123'} .. how do i refer to the value of myvar ?  option['myvar'], option:myvar, ?
16:18 Calinou IMPORT ESSAY
16:18 jordach cornernote, /join #minetest-mods
16:19 cornernote thanks
16:19 Anelisa CALINOU, je fait comment pour faire un serveur ??
16:19 Calinou -_-
16:20 Calinou > pour faire un serveur public, faut ouvrir des ports
16:20 Calinou si tu ne sais pas ouvrir des ports, passe ton chemin
16:20 Calinou je ne connais pas ton routeur
16:23 Anelisa xD
16:23 Anelisa la tronche ! xDD
16:25 Anelisa pourquoi c'est pas plus simple ?
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16:40 Calinou parce que
16:40 Calinou sinon tout le monde pourrait se connecter à la machine
16:40 Calinou c'est pour ça qu'il faut ouvrir des ports
16:40 Calinou à ta machine*
16:45 Anelisa u_u
16:50 Anelisa *un petit vent*
16:55 VanessaE jordach: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/colors.txt
16:55 VanessaE jordach: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/listcolors.sh
17:06 Anelisa Calinou regarde ça : http://hpics.li/3940ce5
17:06 Anelisa Tu en penses quoi ,
17:06 Anelisa ??
17:10 Calinou et?
17:12 Anelisa tu en penses quoi ? (je l'ai fait)
17:13 Anelisa et ça : http://hpics.li/f7dbe35   ? lol
17:16 Calinou mouais, sympa ^^
17:16 * Calinou n'est pas très "anime"
17:16 Anelisa x)
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17:21 marktraceur New favorite thing: Spheres
17:21 Anelisa mais j'ai que çapour la plupart de mes commandes.. ^^
17:22 marktraceur A bitch to make, but damned if they don't look awesome when you're done
17:22 Anelisa http://hpics.li/f4bd440 < by me
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17:32 Anelisa ...
17:33 Calinou point point point
17:35 Anelisa lol
17:35 Calinou olo
17:35 Anelisa si tu veux commander une signa's, avatar, ou header, dit je suis à disposition ! :)
17:35 jordach ,.,//z,/,/z.z/,/z.,/.,,.z,./,/\\\,/\,/,\//\,/.\,\.,\/,\,/,\,.\/,\/\,/,\/,\/.,./\,./\,,\.,.\/.\/.,\/,\/.,/.\,/.\,/,\,.\,,\/ Calinou try that
17:36 * Calinou a déjà son avatar, voir les forums
17:36 marktraceur Oh god why
17:36 * Anelisa sais déjà mais une signa's serait bien, nan ? /SORT/
17:36 Calinou you don't say, marktraceur?
17:36 * Calinou a déjà sa signature, voir les forums
17:36 marktraceur Calinou: The above gibberish was shocking
17:38 * Anelisa sais mais si les BBCodes seraient activés on aurait pu les mettre dans un spoiler, nan ? x)
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17:40 NakedFury is it possible to have some items that can only be crafted using a special table or workstation?
17:42 Calinou see darkrose's mod... maybe, dunno
17:42 Anelisa point point poinr
17:42 Anelisa point
17:43 marktraceur NakedFury: You could very easily not register the craft recipe but check the layout in an inventory for your valid recipe
17:45 darkrose use my workbench mod, and make it a 4x4 or 5x5 recipe
17:46 NakedFury so for now the only way would be to use a bigger work area and make the recipes bigger
17:46 marktraceur darkrose: Do you use the normal registered crafting recipes?
17:46 darkrose yes
17:46 marktraceur NakedFury: No
17:47 Anelisa okayy..
17:47 marktraceur (darkrose, I hope you were saying "yes" to me and not to his question)
17:47 darkrose to both
17:47 marktraceur But it's not the only way
17:47 darkrose :p
17:47 marktraceur NakedFury: You could very easily not register the craft recipe but check the layout in an inventory for your valid recipe
17:48 marktraceur I mean, repetition is a little irritating, but if it gets the point across
17:49 NakedFury I have no idea how to do that
17:50 marktraceur NakedFury: Use darkrose's mod as a base
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17:50 marktraceur She has to check an inventory for valid craft recipes, then output the result
17:50 marktraceur You can do that, but skip the test for validity and just check your own table of valid recipes
17:51 marktraceur Or if you only have one, then just check for that one
17:51 Anelisa .___.
17:51 NakedFury reading it now
17:51 marktraceur Anelisa: Need some help?
17:52 Anelisa marktraceur i need help, i want make a texture pack with gimp (it's my favourite) can you help me ?
17:52 marktraceur Anelisa: Sadly, no. VanessaE might, she's not here right now
17:53 Anelisa ok....
17:53 marktraceur Er.....maybe check back later
17:53 marktraceur Anelisa: Unless there's some specific problem you're having
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19:21 cornernote released my module - ingame recipe viewer - http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=30726
19:22 cornernote now my kids can stop asking "how do i build {insert thing}"
19:23 Calinou lol, nice
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19:24 Calinou great!
19:24 Calinou you need a better recipe probably
19:24 Calinou suggestion: 9 sticks, each in one slot
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19:27 cornernote i like the question mark shape
19:27 cornernote why one in each slot?  what does it represent ?
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19:35 Calinou a square of sticks :d
19:35 Calinou your question mark does not look like a question mark at al
19:35 Calinou or: a single dirt block? :D
19:36 Calinou what newbies first try to do ^
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19:45 cornernote Calinou, yeah i thought about that .. 1 dirt block
19:45 cornernote but its kinda ... well.. too simple
19:46 marktraceur cornernote: What else are you going to craft with a dirt block?
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19:56 Calinou inb4 someone makes mod to make dyes with dirt
19:56 Calinou "it doesn't make sense, but I'll stick with it."
19:56 jordach sorry Calinou already did that
19:57 marktraceur jordach: 1 dirt block -> brown dye?
19:57 jordach remember my classic wool mod
19:57 jordach dirt + white wool = brown wool
19:58 marktraceur jordach: But we're talking about a single dirt block. Nobody will use that for anything. Right?
19:58 marktraceur Oh, idea: 1 dirt block -> Bad coffee
19:58 jordach yes
19:59 jordach i know, one dirt block = one grass block
19:59 marktraceur Meh
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20:43 jordach ngiht
20:45 marktraceur VanessaE: I think Anelise wanted you. Gone now, but meh
20:46 VanessaE oh fine, Anelise and Jordach both sign off when I'm ready to sign on.  go figure.
20:46 VanessaE did you see if jordach got my links re: colors.txt and the script for it?
20:46 VanessaE also, hi :-)
20:48 marktraceur VanessaE: Yeah, he's been working on it
20:48 marktraceur And hi back!
20:48 VanessaE ok cool
20:49 VanessaE hope those links were to his liking :-)
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20:55 nonporous Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main"
20:56 VanessaE dunno
20:56 marktraceur nonporous: That's definitely a bug, if someone else can reproduce
20:56 * marktraceur goes back to other things
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20:57 nonporous marktraceur: hmm ok, is there a good place to report it?
20:58 marktraceur nonporous: http://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues
20:58 marktraceur But don't expect it to get solved super-quickly
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21:07 VanessaE damn it, that script I posted is wrong
21:13 VanessaE there.  corrected and posted.
21:13 VanessaE http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=28399
21:38 VanessaE marktraceur: you still haven't upgraded to the more recent junglegrass ;-)
21:38 VanessaE my front yard looks like it hasn't been mowed in a year ;-)
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21:42 marktraceur I knowwww
21:42 marktraceur VanessaE: Tonight, I think, should be a good time for it
21:43 marktraceur I'm in between projects in-game, and have some time
21:43 VanessaE it'll need time to grow and kill off all the excess grass :-)
21:43 marktraceur I know
21:43 marktraceur But I have work
21:43 VanessaE </nag>
21:43 marktraceur I don't like it any more than you do :P
21:44 * marktraceur would gladly work on minetest mods/servers/core patches if he could get paid for it
21:44 VanessaE hah!  dream on :-)
21:44 marktraceur I will, I will
21:44 * marktraceur looks at Kickstarter
21:44 marktraceur Meh, maybe later
21:45 marktraceur Anyway, 3 more hours, then I'll get quick dinner, then I'll do junglegrass, flowers, and farming in a better way
21:46 VanessaE hahaha - I think I need to add something to the mod where grass will only grow in the presence of full sunlight and only at Y >= 0 :-)
21:46 marktraceur (since your copy of junglegrass still has no COPYING files and, IIRC, still does randomness inside the ABM, I'll just modify my own)
21:46 VanessaE (a piece grew in a cavern below my 'house' :-)  )
21:46 marktraceur *nod*
21:48 marktraceur I can throw that in when I make my changes, if you don't mind
21:49 VanessaE er,  ok
22:03 marktraceur Though I think sunlight has changed
22:04 VanessaE how so?
22:04 VanessaE (i've only barely looked into lighting in the game(
22:04 marktraceur Well, when I did the farming mod
22:05 marktraceur I was testing and all, but I only ever got ~14 light for any node above ground
22:05 marktraceur So I wound up lowering the requirement to 12 light
22:08 VanessaE it still only goes to 14 I think doesnt it?
22:08 marktraceur Might be
22:08 marktraceur The docs say up to 15
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22:12 bas080 Vines mod that actually looks and functions like vines do
22:13 bas080 And can also craft a rope
22:13 bas080 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/vines.zip
22:13 bas080 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/Screenshot%20-%2007122012%20-%2012%3A08%3A19%20AM.png
22:13 bas080 screenshots^^^
22:13 bas080 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/Screenshot%20-%2007122012%20-%2012%3A10%3A11%20AM.png
22:13 marktraceur bas080: Can you please put it on a code hosting site? It makes things a lot easier for everyone.
22:13 FreeFull Cool
22:14 FreeFull Do they work like ladders?
22:14 bas080 it is on github. will make own repo later
22:14 bas080 yes. But they dropdown ones rope block is placed
22:14 marktraceur bas080: Better to link there, then, and not dropbox.
22:14 marktraceur Especially since, at GitHub, we can get a tarball rather than a zip.
22:15 bas080 marktraceur: For my own security?
22:15 marktraceur bas080: No, for the rest of us
22:15 bas080 will do
22:15 marktraceur bas080: For your own security, you should not *use* dropbox, but that damage appears to have been done
22:16 bas080 damn, that sounds drastic
22:16 marktraceur bas080: Not particularly, considering the huge number of backup options that don't deny you digital freedom
22:19 VanessaE this the part where calinou would make some smartass FOSS-related remark ;-)
22:20 marktraceur True
22:21 marktraceur bas080: Calinou is a troll, and a frequent liar. If you, too, are a troll and frequent liar, it does you no harm to continue using Dropbox, and you should probably commence insulting me.
22:22 VanessaE he makes good mods though
22:23 VanessaE (sounds like we need a variant of the Hot/Crazy scale ;-)   )
22:24 marktraceur VanessaE: Somewhat irrelevant to the current conversation, I'm afraid
22:24 VanessaE truw
22:24 VanessaE true
22:24 bas080 https://github.com/bas080/vines
22:24 VanessaE I assume you get the Hot/Crazy reference?
22:25 bas080 i hate you marktraceur. you hurt my fellings. i would never troll
22:25 marktraceur bas080: I'm glad to hear it
22:25 marktraceur VanessaE: HIMYM?
22:25 VanessaE yes
22:25 marktraceur I figured
22:25 marktraceur Most awesome things come from there
22:27 marktraceur bas080: I wasn't calling you a troll, I was presenting you with the facts
22:27 bas080 I just like games bra
22:28 marktraceur bas080: That likely means you don't care about your digital freedom, so continue using Dropbox, we'll round you all up into internment camps with gaming rigs soon enough
22:28 bas080 so github is safe?
22:29 sdzen joined #minetest
22:29 marktraceur bas080: Not particularly, no, but better than Dropbox in that you don't need to use a non-free client to access it
22:30 Bad_Command eh, you can interact with dropbox exclusively via their web interface
22:30 marktraceur Bad_Command: And their web interface is licensed permissively?
22:31 Bad_Command It is a service
22:31 Bad_Command You don't have to be in an internment camp to use it, any modern browser will work
22:31 Bad_Command Internment camps are fun though.  Whee.
22:32 marktraceur Bad_Command: So what you're saying is, you can't access Dropbox without their non-free client?
22:32 Bad_Command Uh, no, I am saying the exact opposite.
22:32 marktraceur Bad_Command: So their web interface is licensed permissively?
22:32 Bad_Command No, that's you trying to make a false dichotomy
22:33 marktraceur Bad_Command: No, JavaScript is software just like anything else, so unless the answer is "yes", you're using their non-free code to access the service
22:33 Bad_Command I didn't say it uses javascript
22:33 marktraceur Bad_Command: I doubt it doesn't
22:33 marktraceur And in any case, their backend is totally shrouded in mystery, so the client-side problems are only the tip of the iceberg
22:34 Kray "problems"
22:34 Bad_Command So is github's backend
22:34 Bad_Command Lets see that code
22:34 marktraceur Bad_Command: I agree. So I use Gitorious.
22:35 marktraceur Kray: You're saying that someone running secret processes on your computer isn't something to be concerned about?
22:35 marktraceur Strip away the official-looking logos, most people would call that malware
22:35 marktraceur But some people actually pay for it
22:38 Bad_Command Because it is useful and does what it is intended to do...
22:38 marktraceur Bad_Command: And possibly more. And possibly in a mailicious or inefficient way. No way to know.
22:39 marktraceur Is this not the definition of malware? "I don't know what this thing is doing, and there's no way to figure that out"
22:39 Bad_Command No, I don't think so
22:39 Kray what kind of hardware you are running?
22:40 Kray is it's firmware open?
22:40 Kray *its
22:40 Bad_Command "Malware, short for malicious software, is software used or created by hackers to disrupt computer operation, gather sensitive information, or gain access to private computer systems. While it is often software, it can also appear in the form of scripts or code.[1] 'Malware' is a general term used to refer to a variety of forms of hostile, intrusive, or annoying software."
22:40 Kray it is just utter bullshit to call closed source software malware
22:40 Bad_Command Yup
22:41 bas080 Privacy and transparency for the win. But you need knowledge to know what your pc is running. Why aren't the pro's making that easier. Like the dude on tedtalks that made that app that shows what tracking internet companies are tracking you?
22:41 Kray have you built everything you run on your computer from sources yourself you have checked first?
22:41 marktraceur Kray: Sadly, no. I'm working towards having free firmware. Recent college grad's paychecks can't support a quick pivot :P
22:42 marktraceur Kray: But the real problem isn't that all non-free software is malware, but that it all *could* be. There's no way to know.
22:42 Kray if not, there might be something nasty there right from the distro
22:42 marktraceur (I suppose I misspoke)
22:42 Bad_Command That's called paranoia
22:42 Bad_Command They have meds that help with that
22:42 Kray indeed
22:42 VanessaE the question isn't do you trust the code - it's do you trust the coders.  IOW, you shouldn't need to audit millions of lines of code, just vet a few thousand programmers, as one member of a large communi8ty
22:42 VanessaE -8
22:43 marktraceur Bad_Command, Kray: It boils down to this: Why should they keep me from controlling my computer, if they aren't doing something nasty?
22:43 Kray no one is keeping you from controlling your computer
22:43 marktraceur I admit I don't have the time to audit every line of code, but if I want to, why should they stop me?
22:43 VanessaE I don't avoid windows because I don't trust the OS (although I don't).  I avoid it because I don't trust the people who wrote it.
22:43 Bad_Command Mark, you can do whatever you want.  You're just preaching some baloney.
22:44 Kray these things are called trade secrets
22:44 marktraceur Bad_Command, Kray: If I run non-free software, I don't control what's running on my computer
22:44 Kray unfortunately it is part of business world
22:44 Kray you can sandbox it if you are so paranoid
22:44 marktraceur Kray: But I'm in my house right now, and my computer's processes shouldn't be trade secrets from *me*
22:44 marktraceur Just like it should be, and is, illegal to put something in food without informing people.
22:45 Kray do you have the exact information on how your fridge's all chips and such work?
22:45 Kray i don't think so
22:45 marktraceur "Hey, what's in this hamburger? I'm allergic to soy sauce." "Oh, we can't tell you, it's a trade secret"
22:45 Kray there is also some embedded stuff
22:45 Bad_Command Yeah that sounds like McDonald's
22:45 marktraceur Kray: Yes, and these are all problems
22:46 Kray they are not problems
22:46 marktraceur Things we should work to solve
22:46 Kray your paranoia is a problem
22:46 marktraceur Kray: If you can't take apart your fridge, and make it better, then you have a problem. You don't have control over your property.
22:46 marktraceur And why do you call it paranoia? Wanting control of my property isn't paranoia.
22:46 FreeFull I run Arch linux on machines
22:47 Kray it is called paranoia when it is so detached from reality
22:47 Bad_Command mark, you choose not to use dropbox.  that's fine.
22:47 Kray but no point in arguing more, i'll go to sleep
22:47 FreeFull No propertiary stuff installed by default, so by default I can look at all the source code I want
22:47 marktraceur Kray: The reality is, I have possession of something, and it's doing things I don't want it to. That's not detached from anything.
22:48 Kray what it is doing that you don't want it to?
22:48 marktraceur Bad_Command: But you think that I'm somehow paranoid for thinking things that are true?
22:48 marktraceur Kray: Hypothetically, sorry
22:48 VanessaE car analogy time:  I do my own repairs on my car (a 1992 cadillac).  Should I have to defer some repairs to a technician because they would involve parts that I'm not allowed to even look at, for fear of breaking said trade secret?
22:48 VanessaE No.
22:48 marktraceur Kray: If it has an extra feature, or a missing feature, I should be able to change it.
22:48 marktraceur Kray: If it breaks, I should be able to fix it.
22:49 Kray well you can
22:49 VanessaE (and fortunately I have yet to find any such things, save for perhaps the internals of the computer)
22:49 marktraceur (see VanessaE's analogy, of course)
22:49 Kray they are just not helping you do it
22:49 marktraceur Kray: But I'd need to do inordinate amounts of work, in pure binary, to fix it
22:49 Kray well, it is your problem
22:49 Kray not theirs
22:49 Kray they are providing you with what you bought
22:50 marktraceur Kray: Bullshit. They've put a huge vault around the software, and you're saying they aren't preventing me from fixing it?
22:50 Bad_Command There's this neat thing called choice.
22:50 Kray what vault?
22:50 marktraceur Bad_Command: Ah, we always come to this inevitably. Choosing to go to jail is not freedom.
22:50 VanessaE kray:  four words:  Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
22:50 marktraceur Kray: If they plop down licensing restrictions, that's a huge vault.
22:50 VanessaE that vault.
22:51 Kray that doesn't prevent yourself doing it on your own
22:51 Bad_Command VanessaE: DMCA is not a vault.  It has provisions that allow reverse engineering.
22:51 VanessaE Bad_Command: which have no teeth.
22:51 marktraceur Kray: Yeah, it does. It prevents you from legally making changes to the software.
22:51 Kray and?
22:51 marktraceur Kray: You shouldn't need to break the law to fix your property.
22:52 VanessaE those provisions are worthless
22:52 Bad_Command But it isn't your property you are trying to fix
22:52 marktraceur Bad_Command: So what did you pay for? Oh, right, a ticket to the show.
22:52 Kray it isn't broken
22:52 Bad_Command It is like trying to screw with a rental car
22:52 marktraceur "You can come in, and look around, but not too closely"
22:52 Kray you got what you bought
22:52 Bad_Command To use a car analogy
22:52 VanessaE it becomes my property the instant it hits my hard disk, and ceases to be my property when I try to upload it or delete it.
22:52 marktraceur It's *in your house*, *in your computer*, *messing with your private data*
22:53 marktraceur No. No. Not anymore. Fuck it.
22:53 marktraceur left #minetest
22:53 Bad_Command well that was mildly amusing.
22:53 Bad_Command Anyhow, gotta buy some milk.  BBL.
22:54 bleargh lol
22:55 VanessaE Kray: face it, no one will ever convince people like mark and I that software shouldn't be as free as any physical possession, nor that it's merely a license/rental/lease/whatever.
22:55 NakedFury hey guys!
22:55 NakedFury and girls
22:56 bleargh sup
22:56 NakedFury wow hot discussion
22:56 Kray obviously i'm against allowing doing whatever you want to what you got
22:56 VanessaE it's like buying a movie on some piece of physical media.  I paid money for it from a legit retailer.  Therefore, I own it, and I can do with it as I please (short of giving copies to others, I respect that)
22:56 bleargh as a user of free software myself i often find windows/nonfree bashing slightly ashaming
22:57 VanessaE and no one will ever convince me otherwise.
22:57 Kray but there is absolutely no justification for requiring distributor to provide source code
22:57 NakedFury why should they provide it?
22:58 VanessaE the justification is earning your customers' trust.  Nothing more and nothing less.
22:58 bleargh you do that with a pr campaign
22:58 VanessaE a PR campaign will only get you so far, especially with geeks
22:59 bleargh well if you trust a company you have lost already
22:59 VanessaE no, company trusting its users.
22:59 VanessaE and in turn, the users trusting the company.
22:59 Bad_Command And trusting the competitors...
22:59 NakedFury that wont happen
22:59 NakedFury ever
23:00 VanessaE and that's a bad thing?  competition is what makes businesses either succeed or fail.
23:00 NakedFury giving out source codes to gather trust is a bad move
23:00 NakedFury and wont happen unless its an open source project
23:00 VanessaE without it, you end up with monopolies, stagnation in the marketplace, maws written to protect existing companies and shut out new competition, etc.
23:01 VanessaE these are not good things for any market, open source or otherwise.
23:01 VanessaE maws -> laws.
23:02 VanessaE and if your company is built upon the foundation of secrecy in your software, you're in for a hell of a fall some day.
23:02 VanessaE because sooner or later those secrets will either be revealed, or someone will make something better.
23:02 NakedFury thi has been the way since the beginning
23:03 VanessaE yes, indeed it has...  and what I said has been the result from the beginning
23:03 VanessaE secrets will be found out.
23:42 FreeFull joined #minetest

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