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IRC log for #minetest-project, 2017-04-08

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Time Nick Message
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18:52 Topic for #minetest-project is now Minetest project channel | http://minetest.org/ for releases and store | Channel is now unmoderated
18:52 Topic for #minetest-project is now Minetest project channel | http://minetest.org/ for releases and Minetest store | Channel is now unmoderated
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20:31 Topic for #minetest-project is now Minetest project | http://minetest.org/ for releases | MT store is http://minetest.org/store/
20:31 Topic for #minetest-project is now Minetest project | https://minetest.org/ for releases | MT store is https://minetest.org/store/
20:41 OldCoder
20:41 OldCoder calculon, epoch, Grandolf, halt_, proller__ voice is no longer needed to speak here
20:41 loggingbot_ was kicked by OldCoder: loggingbot_
20:50 proller__ joined #minetest-project
21:36 red-001 why kick the bot?
21:38 red-001 why are you trying to claim the trademark?
21:47 nore OldCoder: I'd like those questions answered as well, please
21:48 red-001 At the very least your actions and motivation are questionable.
22:12 red-001 anyway doesn't prior art stop you from doing that?
22:12 red-001 OldCoder,
22:15 rubenwardy joined #minetest-project
22:18 OldCoder Folks, Hi. I was out on errands. Surprised to find activity; didn't you leave days ago?
22:18 OldCoder Regarding "questionable", the word applies to the choices of a number of people. In context, I'm Shirley Temple.
22:19 OldCoder "Reprehensible" would actually be a better fit, in some cases, for some of the choices that I've observed.
22:19 OldCoder As far as other questions go, I've spent nearly three weeks trying to be helpful, accommodating, friendly
22:20 OldCoder In exchange, I've learned that 5 years of contributions have counted for nothing, that people I trusted are shallow, that facts aren't important to the herd, and that I've wasted perhaps 30% of the closing chapters of my life
22:21 OldCoder Those who wish to speak politely and are able to process facts, a small percentage of the population, are invited to do so
22:22 OldCoder But right now I need to start catching up on IRL steps that I set aside, foolishly, for the benefit of people who might as well have been cardboard cutouts
22:22 OldCoder Cardboard cutouts of pretend friends
22:22 OldCoder
22:22 OldCoder Good day.
22:23 red-001 so you are planing to steal the trademark because you are angry at some people?
22:23 rubenwardy You're attempting to perform a hostile takeover
22:23 OldCoder red-001, see the preceding. You are able to read. I spent 3 weeks on this. No more.
22:23 OldCoder rubenwardy, ^
22:23 rubenwardy people will dislike this
22:23 OldCoder 3 weeks. And 5 years. Why are you here? Go to the channel that was created specifically to denigrate me.
22:23 * Jordach would not mind turning Jordach's spare time into managing MT
22:24 red-001 OldCoder, we are here because of your actions
22:24 OldCoder red-001, Your actions, you mean.
22:24 red-001 what did I ever do?
22:24 OldCoder Once again, I spent 3 weeks trying to accommodate...
22:24 OldCoder Now I must catch up IRL. Are you able to understand that?
22:24 Shara Other channel was not created for that purpose.
22:24 OldCoder I didn't have the time to help.
22:24 OldCoder But I spent it regardless.
22:24 OldCoder Will you demand more from me now?
22:25 OldCoder Let me spell it out.
22:25 red-001 so this is about revenge?
22:25 OldCoder I must work or be homeless.
22:25 OldCoder Exactly how selfish are you?
22:25 Jordach Shara, red-001, rubenwardy: i understand what has truly gone on for a very long time, mind if i elaborate
22:25 OldCoder I am going to review and restart a subset of my worlds, add a new one, and focus on IRL work
22:25 OldCoder As I should have done weeks ago. Instead of trying to help.
22:25 red-001 Jordach, sure
22:26 Shara Jordach: Feel free.
22:26 Jordach red-001, a while ago OC and I had many talks during 2013/14
22:26 Jordach after events during 2015 i went missing for a while
22:26 OldCoder Jordach, you were Octupus at the time, right? :-)
22:26 Jordach yes
22:26 OldCoder Ahh
22:26 OldCoder Jordach, I didn't expect that
22:26 Jordach but notice my renders had bizzare changes
22:26 OldCoder Please excuse me
22:27 Jordach the last posted ones have more meaning than anything
22:27 Jordach i can sense when things go horribly bad
22:27 OldCoder Jordach, you know that you and he were valued. And so were the others.
22:27 OldCoder I wrote a rhyme just for you; do you remember?
22:27 Jordach OldCoder, notice i never truly allegience between MC and or MT
22:28 OldCoder Never mind allegiance. I'm telling you that what you did, the positive parts, were never forgotten.
22:28 Jordach my feels for both are not strong, but it seems i have to make a choice
22:28 OldCoder You were important to me
22:28 Jordach during 2015 and early 2016
22:28 Jordach i spent months building perfected modpacks in collaboration with others
22:28 Jordach many discussions were had
22:28 Jordach controversial pack changes were made
22:29 Jordach but were worked out by continual testing
22:29 Jordach arguments for and against were weighed
22:30 Jordach late 2016: fell off playing with these packs entirely, and started drifting between my large library of unplayed games and dealing with personal problems that have been occuring
22:30 Jordach i've documented every step of it on a physical notepad
22:30 Jordach some of them containing incomplete renderings and entire plans
22:31 Jordach mid 2016 i moved out from my old hole which was increasingly toxic; and had no time for MT
22:31 Jordach early 2017: i kept an eye on the forums, but not often around in IRC
22:31 Jordach it's because i had come from having everything prepackaged from MC
22:32 Jordach had i realised where MT's proper strengths were
22:33 Jordach from my understanding, MT feels wildy different subgame to subgame
22:33 Jordach none are truly equal in terms of feeling
22:33 Jordach BFD was that first attempt at a proper out-of-the-box FTB style experience
22:34 Fixer Jordach: nah it is just minetest_game with different mods on top
22:34 Jordach Fixer, is it?
22:34 Fixer Jordach: two words: modded minetest_game
22:34 Fixer because vanilla is that fucked up
22:34 Jordach Fixer, and that leads to the age old problem
22:34 Jordach if everything is terrible, nothing is
22:34 Fixer vanilla minetest_game is just collection of blocks
22:34 Fixer and a furnace...
22:35 Fixer and a chest...
22:35 red-001 This doesn't really anwser my questions
22:35 Jordach red-001, i saw change in *both* MT and MC
22:35 OldCoder red-001, your questions are nothing compared to Jordach's concerns
22:35 Fixer and people want basic stuff at least from MC BETA 1.7.3
22:35 OldCoder He's worth a dozen of you. Hush and let him finish.
22:35 Jordach red-001, MC developed a proper RPG like personality
22:35 red-001 OldCoder and what gives you the right to say that?
22:35 Jordach i've watched many hours of YT entirely
22:35 Fixer like mobs, automation, mobs, real survival, (and sandbox if needed)
22:36 Fixer Jordach: same
22:36 Fixer still watching
22:36 Jordach red-001, ~1k hours on a MC FTB instance
22:36 OldCoder red-001, what gives you and the others the right to say anything you've said? Let him finish.
22:36 Jordach i understand what made the packs better than vanilla in almost 99% of cases
22:36 red-001 again what did I say
22:36 Jordach it isn't just a kitchen sink problem
22:36 OldCoder Hush
22:36 Fixer even vanilla mc beta 1.7.3 had amazing capabilities, but not minetest_game, you stop after house construction more or less
22:37 Fixer Jordach: it keeps you busy
22:37 Jordach Fixer, but, when i built my pack, i went for the idea of: for every technological way, there's a magical one too
22:37 Jordach each had their own set of balances
22:37 Jordach (cost effectvity and so on)
22:38 Jordach high end technology required huge amounts of mining and digging
22:38 rubenwardy OldCoder, that was incredibly rude
22:38 Jordach high end magic required some time to setup large magical structures
22:38 Jordach but were often using renewables
22:38 rubenwardy From what I see, he's just asking why you're trying to buy the trademark
22:39 Fixer Jordach: just don't do botania in minetest ._____. it is so complex
22:39 Jordach Fixer, botania has lost most of the inane grind last time i played in 1.7.10
22:39 Shara Unless I am missing something, have to agree with rubenwardy here.
22:39 Shara I had hoped this channel was beyond the insults stage now.
22:40 Jordach Shara, stress ran too far
22:40 Jordach the final straw broke that back
22:40 OldCoder rubenwardy, you are better educated than you are coming across. Allow Jordach to finish BTW.
22:40 Jordach Shara, rubenwardy: i came back at the right time
22:40 Jordach sterring MT's chaotic developing is impossible
22:41 Jordach since i've left for so long with enough ideas to write a game entirely by myself
22:41 OldCoder steering ^
22:41 Jordach obviously
22:41 Jordach everytime _game wants to do something, someones vision gets trampled on
22:41 Jordach it will never work as a sense ofa  game
22:41 Jordach yet they treat it like it needs mods; breaking the usage of _GAME
22:41 Jordach Minecraft can be played by itself; MT cannot
22:43 Jordach it also comes to my second problem
22:43 Jordach servers
22:44 Jordach many servers are basically identical with minor changes between them
22:44 Jordach if i picked any random FTB pack server
22:44 Jordach they'd be wildly different
22:44 Jordach it maybe MC under it; but it plays and feel different
22:44 Fixer yep
22:45 Fixer you can, but well... it is like plain in the yard with a stick
22:45 Fixer homo sapiens kind of era
22:45 Fixer before that
22:45 Fixer Jordach: don't forget about pretty big stall in development that was around 0.4.12 or so
22:45 Fixer Jordach: well, there are common mods, because vanilla mtg is very limited
22:45 Fixer Jordach: say ambience, mobs, etc
22:45 Jordach Fixer, the ultimate solution to it is having direction in _game
22:45 Jordach a proper game with documentation on what goes in it
22:46 Fixer Jordach: yep
22:46 Jordach it is why i've open sourced my experimental Solar Plains
22:46 Jordach and my third point: a game shouldn't need mods to be playable
22:47 Jordach fourth: the servers need to have more moderation and other various things
22:47 Jordach have you ever seen a well behaved MT server?
22:47 Fixer Jordach: https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/515 https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1485 https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1488 etc
22:48 Fixer also this https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1667
22:48 Jordach Fixer, see https://github.com/Jordach/Solar_Plains/issues
22:48 Jordach ive wrote down a proper todo list with complete milestones
22:48 Jordach development shouldn't feel obligatory nor unfun
22:48 Jordach it's why i start and stop frequently
22:49 red-005 oh I'm still connected with this bnc
22:49 red-005 bye
22:50 Jordach Fixer, the hydrolics was to provide a Thermal Expansion style power network
22:50 Jordach but visually and doesn't have to be overly complex
22:50 Jordach visual = on/off
22:50 Fixer Jordach: automation is needed for sure
22:50 Jordach it either contains enough power for low end machiens
22:50 Jordach or not
22:51 Jordach Fixer, i even patched the furnace to make ores smelt into 1-3 ingots
22:52 Fixer interesting
22:52 Fixer more ore variability
22:52 Jordach reduce the grind and suffering entirely
22:52 Jordach but allows for improvements later on
22:53 Jordach instead of just mining, i've given the eventual plan options of not mining
22:55 Jordach i've considered the offerings from Bethesda mostly; treat it as a sandbox and let players decide on their path
22:55 red-001 joined #minetest-project
22:55 OldCoder The strength of the platform is that anybody can create such a game
22:55 OldCoder Wuzzy is working on his MineClone 2, remember
22:55 red-001 OldCoder, it's extermaly rude to try to message someone after they ignore you and tell you to stop
22:55 OldCoder It need not line up with what is described here
22:55 OldCoder red-001, take it to PM
22:56 Jordach Fixer, it solves the second major problem with multiplayer that many admins hate#
22:56 Jordach roleplay
22:58 OldCoder Jordach, how so?
22:58 Jordach OldCoder, i've considered many games that use procgen content
22:58 nore OldCoder: I am still interested in the answer about why you're trying to claim the trademark, even if red is no longer there btw
22:58 Jordach (recent bethesda RPGs Fallout 4, Skyrim; Elite (1984, Dangerous)
22:59 Jordach OldCoder, consider the following: questing, trading / town building with NPCs and mining
22:59 OldCoder nore, allow Jordach to finish; you have no claim on my time
22:59 OldCoder Jordach, yes
22:59 Jordach all three depend on each other softly
23:00 Jordach you need miners to trade, NPCs to trade with, and farmers / aborists for building said homes
23:00 Jordach the fundamental of MT is that you aren;t locked in to any path entirely
23:00 Jordach it's freeform
23:00 Jordach each tree has partial specializations
23:01 Jordach town planning, automated mining and farming (machinist, industrialist), open ended questing and exploration
23:01 Jordach give them a reason to do something other than gather endless resources
23:01 Jordach give a person a reason to fill a resource sink and they'll do it
23:02 Jordach see F2P MMOs
23:02 Jordach tl;dr if there's bragging rights, people will grind
23:02 Jordach instead of idling and doing roleplay in the negative fashion
23:03 Jordach but a miner, trader and farmer are vastly different
23:03 Jordach but players will "roleplay" as one
23:03 Jordach eg, proper trading interaction over materials and such
23:03 Jordach UGC is practically the best way to make MT indefinitely *fresh*
23:04 Jordach player vs player is the best form of interaction entirely
23:04 Jordach (read, not combat)
23:04 Jordach V's server has a pseudo economy
23:05 Jordach but it's problem is inflation
23:05 Jordach if coins were to be made through industrialist methods, it stops currency inflation, which means hiring miners
23:06 OldCoder
23:06 Jordach and traders to broker the materials
23:06 Jordach it supports itself
23:06 Jordach admins only need to watch for greifers and that's practicaly it
23:07 Jordach but yes, that's the sketch i'm working from
23:07 Jordach (and you may resume, nore, Shara )
23:08 OldCoder Shara, your thoughts?
23:08 Shara I don't think there's anything here I haven't considered.
23:08 OldCoder Jordach, there is no single perfect _game, though some will approach the ideal
23:09 OldCoder I think many feel...
23:09 OldCoder that releases ought to bundle high quality _games
23:09 Shara I had (probably still have somewhere), very detailed plans for a subgame I'd like to create when I have time and learn enough, which considers many such points as well.
23:09 OldCoder This is separate from questions related to who decides what.
23:09 Shara But time.
23:09 OldCoder Shara, Time will come
23:09 OldCoder You and Jordach still have Time
23:09 OldCoder Fixer, so do you
23:10 OldCoder All three of you are important
23:10 Shara Some people here still have questions too, it seems.
23:10 OldCoder We all have questions. I'd like to know why I go into shock a few times a day. Such as right now.
23:10 OldCoder Time to lie down
23:10 OldCoder o/
23:11 OldCoder Back later. Shara, I'm sorry about the cat.
23:11 OldCoder I've told you my thoughts on the subject. But...
23:11 Shara Not the place for it.
23:11 OldCoder Cats are more vulnerable than dogs. I'm glad that you were there.
23:11 Shara But appreciated.
23:11 nore Jordach: this seems very interesting, it's a bit differently oriented than what we're trying to build with minetest_game I think, but definitely worth doing and can lead to high-quality results
23:11 OldCoder I've said what I've said regardless.
23:11 OldCoder Need to lie down.
23:12 nore I also think we need to include high-quality subgames with minetest, right now we don't have much
23:12 OldCoder I'm bundling MineClone 2 and Mineville. Wuzzy will continue on the former. The latter will grow with contributions from Shara and others.
23:13 OldCoder And when Jordach has an alpha of his, that will be bundled as well.
23:13 OldCoder I won't be able to sit up more than another 30 seconds or so, so kindly excuse me.
23:13 OldCoder
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