Time  Nick          Message
14:53 ANAND         MT seems to mix up normalmaps and bumpmaps in a very confusing way
14:54 ANAND         enable_bumpmapping should be called enable_normalmaps, AFAIK. paramat said MT already supports per-texture normalmaps.
14:56 ANAND         I haven't checked the code yet, but MT most likely  generates *bumpmaps* based on per-pixel brightness, and not normalmaps
14:57 ANAND         So it should be "generate_normalmaps" instead :/
14:57 ANAND         er... "generate_bumpmaps"* sorry
15:44 VanessaE      ANAND: no, they are actually normalmaps.
15:45 VanessaE      they just aren't very good because MT has no true directional lighting and of course flat textures don't have much in the way of 3d "cues" that the normalmap extract code could use, so it fakes it.
15:46 VanessaE      RBA and I worked on that for a while before we were satisfied with what MT could do at the tiem.
15:46 VanessaE      time*
15:47 VanessaE      devs back then were dead set against anything that could improve MT's visuals if they thought it could give someone a gameplay advantage, however slight.
15:47 VanessaE      (so advanced, moddable shaders were a "hell no")
15:47 rubenwardy    heh
15:48 VanessaE      am I wrong?
15:49 rubenwardy    you're not wrong
15:49 rubenwardy    Minetest's philosophy on shaders is annoying
15:49 rubenwardy    shaders are essential in rendering pipelines, and shouldn't be considered fancy extras
15:49 rubenwardy    however, fancy shaders could be considered fancy extras
15:50 rubenwardy    using shaders for something like lighting is what they're intended for
15:50 VanessaE      I wouldn't mind RBA's lava shader and kilbith's water shader making it in, as long as they can be turned off (I'd use them only in my HDX profile)
15:50 rubenwardy    well, those are both fairly intensive so should be turn-off able
15:50 rubenwardy    but I'd support their addition
15:50 rubenwardy    I've posted the video of what I'd like Minetest to look like many times
15:50 VanessaE      RBA's lava shader is one of these two:  https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/lava_surface_shader  ~~  https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/shaded_lava
15:51 VanessaE      (yeah, I just happen to have a fork of his last-working code, felt like I should preserve it)
15:51 rubenwardy    hmmm, how can I test lots of formspecs at once
15:51 rubenwardy    I guess I want a server with UI and technic
15:52 rubenwardy    :eyes:
15:52 VanessaE      signs, unified dyes (airbrush)
15:53 VanessaE      rubenwardy: you should take those two repos, reconcile 'em, make the result usable again.  RBA would be happy :)
15:55 VanessaE      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v52f-1YsSAM
15:55 VanessaE      found it
15:55 VanessaE      as I recall, it uses an animated normalmap to get that effect
15:55 VanessaE      in like 2 layers
15:55 rubenwardy    ah yeah
15:55 VanessaE      kinda like google earth's water shader effect up close
15:58 VanessaE      I have his water surface shader also, in another repo, but imho kilbith's looks better
15:59 VanessaE      another red flag at the time was the fear of having to hard-code the shader to work with one specific node def.  that'd be another use-case for moddable shaders.
16:00 * DS-minetest wonders how kilbith's water reflection works and whether you can see fragments in the reflection that would otherwise not be seen because of depth-testing
16:01 ANAND         VanessaE: interesting
16:01 ANAND         Yea our current shaders situation is messed up
16:02 VanessaE      it all boils down to: MT should be able to run 100% on Intel laptop graphicds
16:02 VanessaE      -d
16:02 VanessaE      :P
16:02 DS-minetest   from before 20 years
16:02 ANAND         That matches exactly what I run MT on :D
16:02 VanessaE      just about, yeah.
16:03 ANAND         Running MT on such low-end specs enhances all the existing bottlenecks, making them somewhat easier to spot :P
16:04 VanessaE      heh
16:04 VanessaE      that's fine if you're debugging.
16:04 VanessaE      definitely not fine if you're *playing*
16:05 ANAND         Exactly
16:06 DS-minetest   is there a minimum opengl version that minetest requires for enabling shaders?
16:06 Calinou       a large part of players on indie games use Intel graphics, it would be a big mistake to bar them from playing
16:06 Calinou       only AAAs can afford to require a dedicated GPU these days :)
16:06 rubenwardy    I use Intel graphics
16:06 ANAND         DS-minetest: We use OpenGL 1.2
16:06 ANAND         uh, GLSL*
16:07 VanessaE      yeah it's more a matter of OpenGL versions, not so much the underlying hardware.
16:07 VanessaE      even a junky old Intel could do most stuff, just slower.
16:07 VanessaE      if the GL version were up to the task
16:16 VanessaE      also to be honest, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of PCs have at least some low-end dedicated GPU, and it's not at all unreasonable to expect that anyone interested in playing (ACTUALLY playing, not just coding-for, modding-for, etc) on a PC will have a reasonably good GPU, even if it's old.
16:16 VanessaE      (I.e. who gives a shit if tablets/phones could do any better than they currently do, just leave them as they are)
16:18 VanessaE      Hell, I'm not even close to "serious gamer" grade, and yet even I have a good GPU
16:18 ANAND         I just have "Intel HD Graphics". That's it. It doesn't even have a cool number after the name :(
16:19 VanessaE      what's stopping you from getting something better?
16:19 VanessaE      even a cheap $50 GPU would be a big upgrade :P
16:19 rubenwardy    you will have a cool number
16:19 ANAND         Cost, ofc
16:19 rubenwardy    VanessaE: I use laptop
16:19 rubenwardy    I'm currently in a coffee shop, can't take desktops there
16:19 rubenwardy    well, you could
16:19 VanessaE      rubenwardy: you know full well that laptops were never truly meant for gaming.
16:20 VanessaE      not high performance games that is
16:20 VanessaE      and MT needs that.
16:20 rubenwardy    you can still game though
16:20 rubenwardy    and it's more than enough for Minetest
16:20 ANAND         Over here, a GPU that'd actually be noticeably better than my iGPU would cost a LOT
16:20 rubenwardy    also, graphics cards and Linux don't mix at all
16:20 VanessaE      um
16:20 ANAND         ^
16:20 VanessaE      no
16:20 rubenwardy    I could have spend £200 more to get a graphics card
16:20 VanessaE      that's untrue.
16:21 rubenwardy    but it would've have made the system unstable
16:21 ANAND         Drivers are hard to find
16:21 VanessaE      I haven't had problems with video drivers in ages.
16:21 ANAND         Although the situation is getting better these days
16:21 ANAND         Esp. the red side
16:21 rubenwardy    Linux doesn't support swapping between integrated and dedicated cards
16:21 rubenwardy    very well
16:21 rubenwardy    I forget the name for it
16:21 VanessaE      well anyway
16:21 VanessaE      THIS is the resistance I was talking about
16:22 rubenwardy    ah
16:22 rubenwardy    discrete graphics
16:22 rubenwardy    what is the resistance?
16:22 rubenwardy    also, my laptop can run other 3d games with reflective water shaders fine
16:22 VanessaE      rubenwardy: in short,
16:22 VanessaE      <dev> I only have $CRAPPY_LOW_END_MACHINE so fuck everyone else who has something better and wants better use of their hardware.
16:22 rubenwardy    my laptop is high end
16:23 ANAND         lol, resistance? We're just discussing about low-end graphics cards :P
16:23 VanessaE      a laptop is never high end.
16:23 rubenwardy    it has better specs than a flag ship macbook
16:23 rubenwardy    laptops certainly can be highend
16:23 Krock         a laptop can be high-end but they thermal throttle way too fast
16:23 rubenwardy    yeah ^
16:23 rubenwardy    that's the problem with a thin laptop
16:23 Krock         hence only real high-end if powered within a freezer
16:23 VanessaE      by today's standards, my PC is low-end, but I doubt most laptops today could beat it in the long term
16:23 rubenwardy    anyway, I never said that I'd oppose graphics features
16:24 VanessaE      rubenwardy: no,
16:24 rubenwardy    I support graphics features
16:24 VanessaE      but that IS the resistance I was talking about.
16:24 rubenwardy    what resistance?
16:24 VanessaE      it has not changed in the entire time I've been into MT.
16:24 rubenwardy    also, my CPU could probably beat yours if yours if fairly old
16:24 rubenwardy    my laptop has an i7 @ 4GHz, which makes it good for compiling
16:25 rubenwardy    8th gen
16:25 VanessaE      Phenom II X6 1055T (2.8 GHz x 6 cores)
16:25 rubenwardy    but because of the thermal thottling, long running things like gaming will reduce performance
16:25 VanessaE      with good cooling, so it never throttles
16:26 rubenwardy    devs should have a mixture of hardware to be able to optimise for different devices
16:26 VanessaE      indeed
16:26 Krock         Q6700, 2.66 GHz. One of the good CPUs to heat your cold rooms
16:26 rubenwardy    I think the problem with graphics in Minetest is more that we're clueless
16:26 VanessaE      but that's a matter of money and whether they care :P
16:26 rubenwardy    and performance ends up being killed for fancy features
16:26 VanessaE      clueless? well, you said it, not me :)
16:27 rdococ        lol
16:27 rubenwardy    because RBA enables tangent space for all devices, not just ones using normal maps
16:27 VanessaE      RBA used to say similar things though
16:27 ANAND         Our existing shaders structure forbid us from actually making small improvements
16:27 rubenwardy    RBA broke performance several times
16:27 rubenwardy    but then fixed it
16:27 Krock         the currently active developers don't really have a plan of shaders. what kilbith showed there would be some amazing stuff to have, but yet no PR
16:27 VanessaE      yes, he did
16:27 Krock         assuming it's a real shaders
16:27 VanessaE      Krock: there'll never be a PR.
16:28 VanessaE      all his work is in some commercial fork
16:28 rdococ        commercial fork?
16:28 VanessaE      of course, the source has to be available somewhere, but good luck getting a usable PR out of him
16:28 ANAND         kidscode uses the same player models and textures?
16:29 VanessaE      idk anything about it, really.
16:29 rubenwardy    we need people to work on improving our graphics pipelines in more ways than one
16:29 rubenwardy    VanessaE: he said that was in MT, he could intend to contribute it back
16:29 DS-minetest   (a PR would be useless, it wouldn't be merged)
16:30 VanessaE      rubenwardy: I'll reserve judgment...  this IS kilbith after all :)
16:30 VanessaE      DS-minetest: that too.
16:30 rubenwardy    I suppose what we need is not just contributors good with graphics, but at least one developer
16:31 ANAND         What's the difference?
16:31 DS-minetest   one approval is not enough
16:31 Krock         I assume he meant "dedicated core developer working 25/7 on Minetest's graphics stuff"
16:32 rubenwardy    developers can review changes, contributors can't
16:32 rubenwardy    How do I go from craft guide to the creative picker in UI?
16:32 rubenwardy    not all reviews are the same
16:32 ANAND         Ah, for approvals
16:32 rubenwardy    at least one review needs to be informed, but the second review could be more on code structure or testing
16:32 DS-minetest   click on that tool buttons
16:33 rubenwardy    I think it's because I timed out
16:34 rubenwardy    the only real difference between developers and contributors is that developers can actually approve PRs
16:34 * rdococ      wishes he was more skilled with C++... and that C++ was less flawed
16:36 rubenwardy    my laptop cost more than a gaming PC
16:36 rubenwardy    as is the way
16:38 Krock         rdococ: what flaws
16:38 rubenwardy    templates, pointers, many ways of doing things
16:39 DS-minetest   that are just things that cause the programmer to make flaws because he/she is not smart enough
16:40 rdococ        unless that's sarcastic, that's a not smart thing to say
16:41 rdococ        programming languages should help the programmer to avoid making flaws
16:41 rubenwardy    saying the "programmer isn't smart enough" is a pretty new programmer thing to say
16:41 rubenwardy    programming languages should be crafted to make it harder to create bugs, to make maintenance and testing easier
16:41 rubenwardy    and code, too
16:41 Krock         you can overcomplicate everything if you want to
16:42 rdococ        rubenwardy: that's what I said, just stated less eloquently :P
16:42 rdococ        err, by that I mean what I said was stated less eloquently
16:42 rdococ        dammit english, you and your ambiguous grammar
16:42 Krock         (num >= 0 && (sign = true) || (sign = false));
16:43 Krock         Lua-style conditional expression but with assignments
16:43 rubenwardy    I hate assignments like that
16:43 rubenwardy    also
16:44 rdococ        (cond and (function () ... return true end)() or (function () ... end)())
16:44 rubenwardy    sign = num >= 0 ? true : false;
16:44 rubenwardy    sign = num >= 0;
16:44 rubenwardy    :D
16:44 rubenwardy    I know you were purposely being obgtuse
16:44 * rdococ      thinks about what his dream combination of functional and imperative programming would be like
16:45 rdococ        it wouldn't be like Scala, that's for sure :P
17:12 rubenwardy    argh, why is VanessaE's server model  sold out
17:12 rubenwardy    I blame you, VanessaE, for not mentioning the sale sooner
17:12 rubenwardy    gosh
17:18 rubenwardy    2019, wifi support on Linux still sucks
17:19 ANAND         ikr
17:19 Krock         Works On My Machine (C)(R)(TM)
17:20 ANAND         I bought a WiFi adapter last year, and it barely works without the manufacturer-provided driver
17:21 ANAND         While they do have a Linux driver (to my surprise), it was made for an old version of the kernel, and doesn't compile on newer ones >.>
17:21 rdococ        just about works on my shoddy laptop thing (C)
17:22 Krock         Bus 001 Device 003: ID 07d1:3c16 D-Link System DWA-125 Wireless N 150 Adapter(rev.A2)  <<-- can confirm working
17:22 VanessaE      rubenwardy: I didn't know about the sale until the day I mentioned it, and I *did* mention my server model before :)
17:27 rubenwardy    Jordach recommended digital ocean
17:27 rubenwardy    then AWS and Scaleway
17:27 rubenwardy    thanks Jordach
17:32 rubenwardy    banned by Google play
17:32 rubenwardy    if on Android, I'd report the app
17:47 Krock         so I'm trying to call the notification dbus functions but this bad boy already did it https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8846671/how-to-use-a-variant-dictionary-asv-in-dbus-send/38573254#38573254
17:47 Krock         nice thanks. now I can just cope&paste
18:15 rubenwardy    It would be cool to have posters like these: https://supertuxkart.net/Posters
18:58 rubenwardy    Would anyone be willing to help me run a stall at FOSDEM in Brussels, Belgium  1-2 Feb?
19:47 Fixer         those posters are nice, but I'm not good with this