Time Nick Message 00:03 Fixer o.O 01:09 GreenDimond So someone is trying to use my waffle mod on Windows and it cant find the modpath with \mods\waffles/nodes.lua 01:09 GreenDimond I dont remember mods being fundamentally broken on Windows 01:14 GreenDimond Actually the user didnt copy something right 01:14 GreenDimond sheesh 01:56 kaeza !next 01:56 MinetestBot Another satisfied customer. Next! 03:56 sofar kewl flathub gave me write access to net.minetest.Minetest flatpak 05:05 ANAND 5.0.0 is finally out! :D 05:05 ANAND Yay! 05:09 paramat and broken! :D 05:28 ANAND lol 05:31 ANAND At least it was released :) 08:46 nerzhul ANAND we have a big problem with detached inventories 08:47 nerzhul we will need a urgent fix with another network breakage to fix it. Large entities are not working anymore due to a behaviour change 09:18 jas_ !mod 09:18 MinetestBot jas_: Prevent new accounts from joining [nonew] by taikedz - https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=19720 11:56 ANAND nerzhul: That's bad. Hope these are fixed soon. Good luck! :) 12:51 IhrFussel Critical inventory bug in 5.0.0 nice...exactly why I think it's too risky to update just yet 12:52 sfan5 too risky? will your server catch fire? 13:17 IhrFussel You have no clue how CRITICAL it is for a production server to be full of bugs 13:17 IhrFussel At least I would feel ASHAMED for offering such a service 13:18 rubenwardy you must feel ashamed then 13:19 IhrFussel No, my server still runs with 0.4.17.1 and I can pretty much assure there that my server runs for at least 24 hours without any major bugs or crashes 13:20 IhrFussel Since my server relies heavily on entity eggs this would cost me many users now IF I upgraded 13:20 IhrFussel I want to offer a stable experience to my users... no matter what view you have 13:21 rubenwardy my server has been running since the release with no crashes 13:21 IhrFussel I already know the mentality of many in here so no surprise to me that you don't care about the people who play on your servers 13:21 sfan5 IhrFussel: maybe if the community actually fucking tested release candidates this would not have happened 13:21 sfan5 there was two weeks to test shit 13:21 sfan5 but nobody did 13:22 sfan5 on release day: oh look here is a trivial bug 13:22 sfan5 NO FUCKING SHIT 13:22 rubenwardy ^ 13:22 rubenwardy IhrFussel: https://i.rubenwardy.com/nlmSy.png 13:22 IhrFussel Production servers are not made for testing RC ... I am working pretty much fulltime on my server 13:22 rubenwardy no crashes 13:22 rubenwardy consistently half the users 13:22 rubenwardy yellow=5.0, green=0.4.17 13:23 IhrFussel Our community is simply too small to extensively test RCs I'd say 13:23 sfan5 of course it takes time 13:23 sfan5 but you don't need to move your server over or anything 13:23 sfan5 you make a copy, update all your mods and check if it works 13:24 IhrFussel Most users on servers don't even know what 'Minetest' is cause their app makes them believe they play 'Multicraft' or 'Exploration: Lite' or 'WorldCraft 3D' 13:25 IhrFussel I myself found out about Minetest via an app called 'Worldcraft 2' ... when I researched how to create a server I suddenly found 'Minetest engine' and looked it up 13:27 IhrFussel Such tasks are probably better for servers that have less intensive mods and code running 13:27 IhrFussel Or servers that have everything packed as game/modpack 13:27 rubenwardy you *should* have everything packed a game 13:27 rubenwardy it's a good way to manage it 13:27 IhrFussel On my machine mods interact with shell scripts which interact with PHP which interacts with DBs which interact with MT 13:28 rubenwardy even if you never distribute it 13:28 rubenwardy that's disgusting 13:28 rubenwardy but... there's docker for that 13:28 rubenwardy do you develop live on the server? 13:28 IhrFussel Yes 13:28 rubenwardy ew 13:29 sfan5 putting a mess into a container does not make it better 13:29 rubenwardy You have no clue how CRITICAL it is for a production server to be full of bugs 13:29 rubenwardy sfan5: that is true 13:29 IhrFussel Sometimes the server will be down for a bit cause of a critical bug...but I find it fast and fix it 13:29 rubenwardy but it at least makes it easier to have the same environment 13:29 rubenwardy but ideally you wouldn't have this insecure mess 13:30 IhrFussel I don't think it's insecure...I simply have a chat bot running in the background that listens to certain commands from the MT chat log and executes stuff based on those ... you cannot run $(rm -rf /) or something like that 13:31 rubenwardy you literally had a remote execution vulnerability a year ago 13:31 IhrFussel That was a missing check on my website 13:31 IhrFussel Can happen to anybody 13:32 IhrFussel I developed my site from scratch...others use CSMs or wordpress etc 13:32 rubenwardy It can't happen to anybody, because sane people don't use user input as a parameter to a shell command 13:32 rubenwardy having a shell vulnerability like that is like having an SQL vulnerability 13:33 rubenwardy *SQL injection 13:33 rubenwardy it only happens when you misuse technology 13:33 IhrFussel I replaced those calls too... Basically I used shell_exec("cat ...") before and now I use file_get_contents() 13:34 IhrFussel For some reason I though file_get_contents() would not work for my specific case but later I realized I was wrong 13:34 IhrFussel SQL injection happen lots of times every day 13:34 IhrFussel Mostly cause of websites with outdated CSMs 13:35 IhrFussel CMS* 13:35 rubenwardy ContentDB doesn't have any sql injections, and never will 13:36 IhrFussel I'm talking about people who have no clue about coding and just install any CMS they like onto their webspace and never update it 13:36 rubenwardy how did we even get here, lol 13:38 IhrFussel Many people also don't advise to upgrade for example Ubuntu to the newest LTS at launch cause of possible critical bugs that could potentially harm your services 13:39 rubenwardy ------- 13:39 rubenwardy anyone good with nginx? 13:39 rubenwardy Hi! I'm using nginx as a reverse proxy, and I'm using a proxy cache. Urls with no query strings are cached fine, but as soon as I add a query param it misses the cache every time 13:39 rubenwardy https://paste.ngx.cc/14 13:40 rubenwardy (this is why ContentDB loads slowly) 13:45 rubenwardy (#nginx doesn't help) 13:46 IhrFussel Wait YT runs on lighttpd I read? 13:46 rubenwardy I imagine YT runs on a lot of things 13:46 rubenwardy cloud computing is dark magic 14:41 Calinou its backend is said to run on Python 2 too 14:42 Calinou rubenwardy: I believe URLs with query strings are never cached for robustness reasons, not sure if you can change that behavior 14:42 Calinou (or at least, not by default) 14:42 rubenwardy sadness 14:43 rubenwardy application-level caching then :'( 14:43 Calinou https://stackoverflow.com/questions/850187/caching-from-urls-with-a-query-string 14:43 Calinou maybe you can find a setting to change that, but I'm not sure 14:43 Calinou where are you using query strings (and what for)? 14:44 rubenwardy https://content.minetest.net/api/packages/?type=game&type=mod&type=txp&hide=nonfree&hide=desktop_default&protocol_version=37 14:45 Calinou I see… implementing things like Redis is quite common in this case 14:45 IhrFussel luk3yx, can you tell us what the vulnerability is about WITHOUT giving away any code/tutorials on how to do it? I (and many other server owners likely) would like to know which parts of MT the vulnerebility affects exactly 14:45 Calinou or can nginx's built-in caching handle this? (is it proxy caching or something else?) 14:45 rubenwardy IhrFussel: something to do with log integrity 14:46 Calinou https://www.nginx.com/blog/nginx-high-performance-caching/#MechanicsofHTTPCaching 14:48 IhrFussel So modified clients that abuse it are able to supress log entries server side? 14:48 Calinou maybe you could tweak proxy_cache_key? 14:51 Calinou rubenwardy: also this is why I'm skeptical of microframeworks, but that's just me :) Anyway, what's done is done 14:51 Calinou (for any sizeable project, that is) 14:52 rubenwardy probably 14:53 rubenwardy maybe I should try actually returning cache headers from the API directly 14:54 rubenwardy proxy_cache_key should already include the query as args 15:45 Fixer nah, cdb is fine for me 15:51 rubenwardy uncached --> 1.94s, cached --> 0.364s 15:52 rubenwardy wait, maybe it is caching 16:19 IhrFussel Core devs: Are you serious about adding a HACK to fix the inventory problem instead of fixinf it correctly (nerzhul's way) JUST because 5.0.0 released yesterday and you want to assure backwards compatibility with something that's not even 48 hours old? 16:19 IhrFussel Fix it PROPERLY 16:19 IhrFussel I'm seriously losing faith in some of you 16:20 rubenwardy oh, did I do that outloud 16:20 jas_ :) 16:21 jas_ reminder, do not lose faitrh 16:28 rubenwardy lol, I think I've angered him 16:29 * Fixer breathes heavily 16:30 rubenwardy IhrFussel: sorry, that kick was impulse and not really warranted 16:30 IhrFussel If anyone ever ask me about 5.0.0 I will tell them that devs didn't care much abouzt releasing it in a good state...that's a fact 16:30 jas_ that's your impression 16:30 jas_ your perception 16:30 jas_ your opinion 16:30 rubenwardy the problem is that no one really tests it 16:31 rubenwardy like, I had CTF running on it for months 16:31 rubenwardy some people did join to test = 16:31 sfan5 >community doesn't help testing 16:31 sfan5 >it's the devs fault 16:31 sfan5 ? 16:31 rubenwardy but this bug doesn't happen on CTF, because I don't have very many ndoes 16:31 rubenwardy also, VanessaE's servers have had 5.0.0 since rc1 16:31 rubenwardy and some of them are creative 16:31 IhrFussel I'm talking about adding hacky solutions instead of fixing code properly... adding hacks is never a proper way to do things 16:31 rubenwardy I guess UI does creative differently? 16:31 rubenwardy IhrFussel: the hacky solution works the exact same way as 0.4.17.1 16:32 rubenwardy in 0.4.17.1, this string was a raw string which had no length encoding 16:32 jas_ and breaking network compat twice in two days is not an easy decision. nor has the decision been made yet. 16:32 jas_ (well) 16:32 rubenwardy this solution adds a length encoding to still support 5.0.0, but ignores it to have the same affect as 0.4.17 16:32 jas_ 6.0.0 ftw!!! 16:32 IhrFussel That's like realizing a mistake and acting like it never happened 16:32 Fixer daily reminder: fuck dropbox 16:33 sfan5 IhrFussel: if you had downloaded 5.0.0 yesterday and found no problems with your setup, what would you say if there was 6.0.0 today which is (again!) incompatible with your version? 16:33 Fixer whatever dick desided to ruin millions of dropbox links should burn in ISIS camp 16:33 jas_ rough 16:33 jas_ i think they just call it IS now 16:33 Fixer and his family sent to North Korea labor camp 16:33 IhrFussel Who says that a network brakage after less than 48 hours HAS TO bump the first digit? Where does it state that? This is essentially still 5.0.0 release 16:34 sfan5 the versioning scheme says that 16:34 rubenwardy ^ 16:35 sfan5 besides, you want to tell users that the 5.0.0 they downloaded yesterday is not "real" and that they need to download a new one today? 16:35 Fixer yeah, it had critical bug 16:35 IhrFussel That sounds just silly to me... if there is a critical network bug in my 1.0.0 software I can of course fix it without bumping to 2.0.0 within a few days 16:35 Fixer do 5.0.1 or smth 16:35 sfan5 you can do so if your versioning scheme allows you to 16:35 rubenwardy 5.0.0 still works perfectly fine on server like CTF which don't have large inventories 16:36 jas_ i think there's some features planned for 6.0.0 that break compat anyway? so a hack now and a proper fix later makes sense in that regard, i think. 16:36 rubenwardy my patch makes it act like 0.4.17.1 on 5.0.1+ client/server pairs 16:36 rubenwardy and it acts no worse than 5.0.0 on 5.x mismatches 16:36 rubenwardy and it acts no worse than 5.0.0 when one of the client or server is 5.0.0 16:36 jas_ and "hack" is a poor choice of word here, it's a fix really, just a temp fix. 16:37 IhrFussel But suddenly hacks are FINE in the engine...a few months ago you said hacks don't belong into PRs 16:37 jas_ yeah poor choice of wording sorry 16:37 jas_ but it's a temporary fix, heh 16:37 jas_ i don't think it's worth getting too upset about tho 16:37 rubenwardy It's not really a hack 16:37 jas_ 5.0.0 is a fine release 16:38 jas_ it's too bad you couldn't have tested it on the dev version, or release candidates 16:39 IhrFussel Not every server uses items with lots of meta... I think it requires quite a few books/mob eggs/other items with meta to actually happen 16:39 rubenwardy we should probably require devs to test using dreambuilder 16:39 rubenwardy as much as I'd hate that 16:39 rubenwardy although actually, this bug doesn't happen using dreambuilder as dreambuilder includes UI 16:39 rubenwardy which is presumably exempt from this 16:40 jas_ in the future i'm sure testing for loads and loads of nodes will be a requisite 16:40 IhrFussel I think 1 mob egg from Mobs Redo stores several hundred bytes of 'self' values 16:41 jas_ anyway, "shit happens" 16:43 IhrFussel I'm guessing more and more bugs will surface the more servers upgrade 16:43 sofar you can't just load dreambuilder - it won't exercise much of the actual code paths 16:43 sofar that's the problem I have with minetest-mods 16:43 sofar almost all mods load fine on 5.0.0 16:43 IhrFussel Cause the RC wasn't tested in actual production environments at all AFAIK 16:43 sofar but I didn't actually place any nodes or use any recipes of the mods 16:44 sofar I tested the RCs against ITB 16:44 jas_ vannesa's servers, too 16:44 jas_ vanessa* 16:44 IhrFussel Not sure how many users your server got but actual 'stress tests' would be on popular servers with 10+ players online mostly 16:44 jas_ yeah, vanessa's, plus that thailand one had loads of users 16:44 jas_ where were you? 16:44 sofar ITB has no stress 16:45 sofar either box loading and editing works or it doesn't 16:45 IhrFussel There are many things that could break only when many users are online... or some memory leak that is only visible with many players connected 16:46 IhrFussel Maybe race conditions that only happen the more players do something at the same time and will basically never happen with just 1 or 2 16:47 sofar so you're volunteering to test that, then 16:48 jas_ also, when vanessa tested (thank you!) they found a big network slow-down problem that was fixed during a release candidate 16:48 rubenwardy the 5.0-rcX server for CTF had 5+ players on at time 16:48 IhrFussel My suggestion for the next major breaking release would be to make an official testing server running with the RC 16:48 IhrFussel Let it run for 1 week at least 16:48 sofar great! Looking forward to you doing that, that would be fantastic 16:49 IhrFussel I thought rather of someone who doesn't already run/pay for servers 16:50 sofar listen, you, IhrFussel, are an engaged and committed community member 16:50 sofar if YOU can't help out, who can? 16:50 IhrFussel Renting a VPS for 1 month for $5 or so should be doable 16:50 rubenwardy problem is you need a wide range of testing 16:50 rubenwardy this bug does not happen in MTG 16:50 rubenwardy or in CTF 16:50 sofar everyone should step up, and we did 16:50 rubenwardy only when you have mods instqalled 16:51 rubenwardy so an official server would not help with this 16:51 sofar and it's server owners that are exposed to that scenario 16:51 IhrFussel Then that RC server should maybe have multiple instances... one running with vanilla MTG another running another popular but heavy game 16:52 jas_ "in a perfect world" 16:53 IhrFussel The actual problem is that barely anyone can/wants to test the RC ... many users in the forum for example are actually young kids that don't necessarily know how to download/install the RC 16:53 sofar no 16:53 sofar the actual problem is that capable people don't step up 16:53 sofar like you 16:54 sofar I ran a random 5.0.0 test server for 2 weeks or so 16:55 sofar tested ITB with 5.0 thoroughly 16:55 Calinou I was busy updating my mods so I couldn't test 5.0.0, sorry :( 16:55 rubenwardy CTF 5.0.0 was running for more than a month 16:55 Calinou (now I need to make sure they work well with 5.0.0 :P) 16:55 sofar tried to help out with minetest-mods and getting most 5.0.0 ready 16:55 rubenwardy VanessaE's updated as soon as rc1 came up 16:55 sofar send several PRs in the last month 16:55 sofar rebased urgent mtg fixes even last night for paramat 16:56 sofar please stop complaining and start helping 16:56 * sofar goes to get coffee 16:56 VanessaE I haven't had but one or two instances of 5.0.0 incompatibility on my servers, which I've mostly corrected 16:56 VanessaE still need to make a new DB release though. 17:02 IhrFussel I already mentioned earlier that I am working fulltime on my own server to optimize and improve it... I'm too busy to test the RC...and my playerbase might not be enough to actually test it... servers with many players should test the RC cause they have a much bigger audience 17:03 jas_ let us move forward, somehow 17:03 IhrFussel Servers that disallow the people with random names should be more important to test it cause those definitely have users who know about 'Minetest' 17:04 IhrFussel I don't think I'm much of help... I admit that the vast majority of my active players actually uses a 3rd-party app to play 17:05 IhrFussel Without those my server would be pretty dead 17:06 IhrFussel That probably applies to all servers who don't restrict these app users 17:06 IhrFussel that don't* 17:06 VanessaE so, I guess I should update my server build to 5.0.0-release, right? or should I wait? 17:06 rubenwardy I'd wait for 5.0.1 17:06 VanessaE ok. 17:07 rubenwardy should be today or tomorrow 17:07 rubenwardy depends on when we resolve this argument :D 17:07 VanessaE I missed most of the current argument :P 17:07 jas_ i never restrict users, but it doesn't apply to me. my servers have been dead since the network compat breakage, and it's been so peaceful 17:07 VanessaE rubenwardy: has a fix for the VM lighting segfault been pushed yet? 17:07 sfan5 VanessaE: depends, do your mods plan to put 2000+ items in a single inventory? 17:08 rubenwardy VanessaE: oh, have you reproduced it? 17:08 sfan5 rubenwardy: while the opportunity is here, it'd be nice to fix a few other bugs 17:08 sfan5 like the one just mentioned 17:08 VanessaE rubenwardy: I should hope I did -- I *filed* it. :) 17:08 sfan5 so 5.0.1 might not necessarily come today/tomorrow 17:08 rubenwardy that is true 17:08 rubenwardy if we decide against nerzhul's approach, there's no reason that it has to be today or tomorrow 17:08 VanessaE there's still one mod somewhere in DB that is triggering, but I can't find it without a proper lua crash report/backtrace. 17:09 rubenwardy VanessaE: https://i.rubenwardy.com/RzMev.png 17:09 rubenwardy is this the same bug? 17:10 VanessaE sfan5: as for 2000+ items in an inv I assume you do not simply mean 32 slots with enough full stacks to exceed 2000 total? 17:10 VanessaE rubenwardy: no. 17:10 jas_ like 2,000+ registered items 17:10 jas_ in a single list 17:10 jas_ (unique items) 17:11 VanessaE rubenwardy: I mean this, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8220 17:11 VanessaE (and since it's still open, obviously the answer to my question is "no" :P ) 17:12 VanessaE jas_: I suppose not. I don't have many mods that even create detached inventories as far as I know. 17:12 rubenwardy here's the player count on my servers: https://i.rubenwardy.com/T40js.png 17:12 VanessaE (most inventories are part of some node, ala chests) 17:13 jas_ creative server creates a detached inventory 17:13 rubenwardy the 5.0.0 server has been pretty ok 17:13 jas_ setting* 17:13 VanessaE rubenwardy: https://daconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/stats-daily.html 17:13 rubenwardy because most of the regulars moved over 17:15 sofar VanessaE: when did you switch to 5.0? wed 10:00? 17:16 VanessaE sofar: Feb 4 I think. that break on wednesday was migrating to a new box. 17:16 sofar yeah, looks like a reboot of some sorts 17:16 VanessaE er, on thursday 17:17 sofar flatpak now has net.minetest.Minetest - 5.0.0 on flathub 17:18 VanessaE the new box has fewer cores and only has spinning rust, so the morning reboot and the mapper each take about 3x as long.. but live use is not appreciably slower because single-core speed is faster. 17:19 VanessaE (leaftest rendering of a map is slllllooooooooowwwwww presumably because it reads the entire map database instead of just the parts it needs to render) 17:19 rubenwardy it's because it renders multiple zoom levels 17:20 rubenwardy and it probably doesn't down size, idk 17:20 VanessaE rubenwardy: you sure? it's clearly disk-IO-bound. 17:21 VanessaE though I do need to see if I can render the overviews to ramdisk and dump them out when finished. 17:22 VanessaE hm.. 1.1 GB for all of the overview maps. yeah, should be no prob. 17:30 jas_ does a minimum protocol version bump break network compat? 17:30 jas_ or only if `enable_strict_protocol_version_check' is true? 17:30 jas_ (or whatever that setting is... `strict_protocol_version_checking' 17:31 rubenwardy yes 17:31 jas_ i see, thank you 18:59 IhrFussel Android: Trying to start a world with 'Minetest Life' game crashes the whole app ... inventory bug too? 19:02 IhrFussel Missing files in game it seems...but why does the app crash there? 19:20 IhrFussel Auto JUmp only works when walking forward...is this intended? 19:21 sfan5 I think it is 19:36 IhrFussel Can I check anywhere which MT versions corresponds to what protocol version? 19:37 IhrFussel In particular 0.4.11 - 0.4.15 is interesting 19:37 rubenwardy 32 = 0.4.16 - 17 19:37 rubenwardy 37 = 5.0.0 19:37 rubenwardy (from memory) 19:37 rubenwardy oh 19:37 IhrFussel I know that much... but below is more complex 19:38 rubenwardy and you can check using github by viewing the file and selecting tags 19:39 rubenwardy https://i.rubenwardy.com/Apr83.png 19:39 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/network/networkprotocol.h#L199 19:40 rubenwardy as in, you'd want to change the drop down in the screenshot 19:40 rubenwardy then view the line in the link 19:40 rubenwardy #define LATEST_PROTOCOL_VERSION 37 19:42 IhrFussel 0.4.11 didn't have that file? 19:43 IhrFussel Leads me to 404 page 19:43 sfan5 it was moved at some point 19:43 sfan5 try changing src/network/ -> src/ 19:45 IhrFussel 0.4.11 src has no 'networkprotocol.h' 19:47 sfan5 well no idea where it is then 19:48 IhrFussel But 0.4.11 must be version 24 since that's the minimum 0.4.X servers support 19:48 IhrFussel Default minimum* 19:55 IhrFussel 0.4.13 added the file...it was not there before it seems 19:55 IhrFussel 0.4.13 is 26 20:02 IhrFussel 0.4.14 is 27, 0.4.15 is 28 ... 29/30/31 are dev-only prot versions as are 33/34/35/36 20:04 IhrFussel With this info and my logging of protocol version when players join I was able to get a list of recent unique users for my server 20:04 IhrFussel MT Version Stats (users from recent days): 523 used 0.4.16/0.4.17(.1), 42 used 0.4.15, 2731 used 0.4.14 and 4 used <= 0.4.13 20:05 IhrFussel 0.4.14 is by FAR the most used version by 3rd-party apps 20:07 IhrFussel Judging by this it might take a long time until they upgrade to 5.0.X 20:36 lumberJ sneak peak: http://i.imgur.com/0Q4AQK1.png 20:37 lumberJ just want to take this opportunity to say to the core devs, 1st congrats on the 5.0.0 release and 2nd thanks for what you do. Having a blast working on this and it wouldn't be possible without all the work you all do 20:38 Fixer nice 20:39 lumberJ i see you all taking a disproportionate amount of static for this and that missing feature or bug, but even in the few years i've been enjoying minetest, i've seen it improve by leaps and bounds. just want to let you all know a silent majority really enjoys your work 20:57 rubenwardy IhrFussel: CTF4 only allows 0.4.16 and above to connect 20:57 rubenwardy I thin 20:57 rubenwardy it's probably worth compairing the average hours of those users 20:57 rubenwardy like, do they just disconnect because their phones are too slow 21:24 sofar ITB only allows 0.4.16+ as well 21:24 sofar several key features are missing for older clients 21:28 rubenwardy CTF also has players, though 21:28 rubenwardy :) 21:32 VanessaE *gasp* 21:32 VanessaE ok I may have it.. 21:33 VanessaE #1234 21:33 * VanessaE pokes ShadowBot 21:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1234 -- Client side caching of mapblocks 21:36 luk3yx #1024 21:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1024 -- Shaders rework. by RealBadAngel 21:39 Emerald2 Ooooh shots fired, ruben. 21:40 * VanessaE looks around for the shooter :P 21:41 sofar I don't mind, CTF is a great server, and I spend hours awake at night trying to come up with ideas to attract the same order of players (not to ITB, but something else) 21:42 rubenwardy my point was that CTF limits the MT version already and still has players 21:42 rubenwardy ITB is pretty good imo 21:43 sofar well, my point was that even for low population servers like ITB, limiting clients doesn't seem to hurt much 21:46 rubenwardy oh fair 21:46 rubenwardy I guess that's a good point 21:46 rubenwardy but, an interesting thing is that most of the regulars have already updated to 5.0.0 21:46 rubenwardy the problem is not the regulars, but those on 3rd party apps - especially those on iOS 21:46 sofar yeah, I saw the serverlist 21:48 sofar 6234820 seconds played to complete 16839 boxes = average time to complete a box = 6mins10secs 21:48 sofar I think that's up from before 21:51 sfan5 does the areas mod have self-protection enabled by default? 21:55 sfan5 it doesn't